State board charter committee: No fireworks but a few sparks today
I am on deadline for a Sunday piece but dashed downtown to the state Department of Education this morning for the State Board Charter Committee meeting after being told to expect “fireworks” over John Barge’s surprising public statement last week in opposition to the November charter school amendment. The committee is a subcommittee of the state Board of Education.
It wasn’t quite fireworks, but there were a few sparks The sparsely attended meeting had representatives from two charter schools, Heritage Prep Academy and Ivy Prep, who spoke in favor of their schools.
The charter school reps were there because of Barge’s statement last week: “Until all of our public school students are in school for a full 180-day school year, until essential services like student transportation and student support can return to effective levels, and until teachers regain jobs with full pay for a full school year, we should not redirect one more dollar away from Georgia’s local school districts – much less an additional $430 million in state funds, which is what it would cost to add seven new state charter schools per year over the next five years (the annual average of the Charter Commission that would be revived if the amendment passes).”
While waiting for the 10 a.m. meeting to start, I talked to Nina Gilbert, Ivy Prep founder, about her concerns over Barge’s position. The state is Ivy Prep’s authorizer, Gilbert noted, so it is important that Barge be a strong supporter of the charter school movement and concept.
The meeting began 40 minutes late with an announcement from the chair that the committee would speak to the Barge statement even though it was not on the agenda. Chair Brian Burdette also said that the public could speak for two minutes on the issue, too.
Committee members Daniel Israel and Grant Lewis spoke first. Committee member Kenneth Mason had jury duty. They split on the issue:
Israel: I was disappointed with the decision that Barge took. I want to see the amendment pass… for everyone to line up behind it for a couple of reasons. We need to offer alternatives for children in Georgia. I think that a lot of support and good will has been generated behind this initiative and this might poison the well a little bit. I am hoping we can come together and advocate and see this pass in November.
Lewis: I think we have already have an option for charter schools. The state school board can approve them and I think the terrible economics come to play a great deal in our state. We can save some money by not having a commission that duplicates services. I am very much behind charter schools. In the future, as we have more money available, we can revisit it. At present time, I am not going to support it.
Then, the chair spoke:
Burdette: I disagree with Superintendent Barge’s comment vigorously and I was very surprised and shocked to hear it. But I am going to reserve my comments to this afternoon in the committee of the whole. I wanted the charter committee to understand and know where I stand — I stand in full support.
In the brief public portion, four employees of charter schools spoke in favor of their schools. A parent spoke, although it was unclear that he understood the intent of the amendment as he told us afterward that he was not sure of the particulars but wanted more money to come to his school. (The amendment will not redirect more money to existing charter schools.)
The former executive director of the state Charter Schools Commission spoke about his personal frustrations with Barge’s position. I was surprised by Mark Peevy’s criticisms as Peevy would have to work with DOE again if the amendment passes and the commission is revived under his leadership. (I told him that afterward, and Peevy said he felt he had to be candid. I told him that journalists appreciate candor, but I still wondered about his job prospects.)
Peevy said the school chief’s comments disparaged the work of his commission, as well as the supervisory role of the state board in sanctioning the schools endorsed by the commission. Peevy said he was offended by a DOE-produced fact sheet on charter schools in which Barge noted that only one of the schools approved by the commission was high quality in 2011, based on performance scores.
The fact sheet stated:
Charter schools in Georgia do not consistently outperform traditional public schools. In 2010-11, Georgia’s traditional public schools outperformed its charter schools, with 73% making AYP compare to 70% of charter schools.
Only one of the 13 schools serving former Commission school students meets the definition of a high-quality charter school – and that school is now a locally-approved charter school (The Museum School of Avondale Estates).
“To come back now and say those schools were not high quality puts the work of this committee and the board as a whole in a disturbing light,” said Peevy.
For clarity: State board of ed members are appointed and reflect the political leanings of the governor who put them in the seats. Last year, Gov. Nathan Deal purged the state board, replacing longtime members with his own appointees, most of whom support charter schools. So, it should be no surprise that board members disagree with Barge on the amendment question.
Barge, however, was elected statewide without much help from the GOP establishment. The Republican leadership ignored his campaign because of his opposition to Race to the Top, a personal project of then Gov. Perdue. As a result, Barge took office with fewer political IOUs, which is why he has more freedom to take stands that depart from the GOP script in the state.
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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132 comments Add your comment
Ron F.
August 22nd, 2012
1:42 pm
“The state is Ivy Prep’s authorizer, Gilbert noted, so it is important that Barge be a strong supporter of the charter school movement and concept.”
Barge has openly stated, repeatedly, that he supports charter schools. He opposes the amendment to create a state commission to approve them. It is, in point of fact, possible to support the type of school without supporting the expense created by the amendment.
Just A Teacher
August 22nd, 2012
1:51 pm
It is frustrating (but not surprising) that there were representatives from charter schools at the meeting but no representatives from the local school boards which would be affected by the proposed amendment. Taxation without representation, anyone?
Inquiring Mind
August 22nd, 2012
1:58 pm
Where, on any website, can I locate the salaries of staff at Charter Schools? I can’t find this info on Ga Audits.
Pride and Joy
August 22nd, 2012
2:04 pm
How to lie with statistics:
“Charter schools in Georgia do not consistently outperform traditional public schools. In 2010-11, Georgia’s traditional public schools outperformed its charter schools, with 73% making AYP compare to 70% of charter schools.”
Charter schools are most often a response to a failing, traditional public school. The success of a charter scool should be measured against the success of the traditional public school it was meant to address. So for example, compare Drew Charter school to Toomer Elementary and Coan Middle School.
Also remember that academic success is a key component for measureing success but not the only important metric. Parents often pull their children out of traditional public schools because of bullying and teenage pregnancy. Compare those numbers between the traditional public schools and the charter schools in the same immediate area of from the area in which the children.
I would be silly to expect the children from Drew Charter, who are poor and black and come from one-parent homes, to perform as well as their rich, affluent white peers in East Cobb. Compare Drew Peterson charter school to the performance of Toomer and Coan.
Also include parent approval as a measure of success and the amount of money the school spends as a measure of success.
One can easily manipulate the news with statistics. One has to understand how the statistics were gathered and what they really measure. People want to present statistics in a way to accomplish their own agendas and on this blog, bashing charter schools has been raised to an Olympic-level pastime.
Maureen Downey
August 22nd, 2012
2:12 pm
@Pride and Good Mother, I have to respond to your comment that “One can easily manipulate the news with statistics. One has to understand how the statistics were gathered and what they really measure. People want to present statistics in a way to accomplish their own agendas and on this blog, bashing charter schools has been raised to an Olympic-level pastime.”
In your various incarnations on this blog, you have cited the failure rates of APS and DeKalb schools again and again. (I have no idea if you have children or if they go to schools in either system, but those are the two systems that you have mentioned.)
You declare schools in those systems failures by virtue of the scores that you now say are being manipulated and presented in ways “to accomplish their own agendas.”
Make up your mind. These charter schools are being judged by the same state test scores that you cite repeatedly as proof that APS and DeKalb are failures.
If you are now suggesting that these scores cannot be trusted to assess charter schools, then why do you use them to judge APS and DeKalb?
Speaking of an agenda.
Maureen
Mitch
August 22nd, 2012
2:16 pm
Maureen, you ignored Pride’s point. The DOE info compares charter schools to the entire state, which is not a fair comparison. Why not compare the charters to the schools in their districts and see what we come up with.
bootney farnsworth
August 22nd, 2012
2:21 pm
I’m still waiting to hear where the money is gonna come from.
Anon for this 1
August 22nd, 2012
2:28 pm
Some questions about Drew, since the charter issue is here again. The Drew supporters made a good argument that the local poor children aren’t being excluded. One thing didn’t get mentioned that maybe a Drew supporter can answer. They say siblings get a priority, but is it also true that children in the day care program also get a spot reserved once they are of age to enter Drew? If this is true, what are the fees for the day care? Do they have a sliding scale for poor parents? If they don’t have a sliding scale, does that mean that well off parents have an advantage that poor parents don’t in that they can buy their way in by paying for their child to be in day care? The supporters did a pretty good job explaining everything else, so maybe they can say if this is true or not.
Just A Teacher
August 22nd, 2012
2:31 pm
“Peevy said he was offended by a DOE-produced fact sheet on charter schools”
I suppose facts can be offensive if they don’t support your position. LOL
Maureen Downey
August 22nd, 2012
2:32 pm
@Mitch, I have looked at the scores of charters schools across comparable demographics. There is not a big difference as the national research bears out. But, in their defense, the Georgia charter commission schools being talked about today are new. They contend that their scores will improve over time and that they ought be judged after they have these kids for a time.
And as Mark Peevy told me after the meeting today, the 2012 scores are better for several of the the schools.
It is also not the case that all the state-approved charter schools have larger numbers of poor kids.
The highest performing charter cited by Barge, the Museum School of Avondale in DeKalb County, has only 15 percent of its students on free and reduced lunch, according to the state Report card. But, as a system, DeKalb County has 70 percent of its students on free and reduced lunch.
http://reportcard2011.gaosa.org/%28S%28jif5yt45rswfaj55r1mygnfz%29%29/k12/demographics.aspX?ID=644:ALL&TestKey=EnR&TestType=demographics
Ron F.
August 22nd, 2012
2:35 pm
Mitch: what difference does it make? If the public school averages 50%,the charter 55% and the state average is 65%, I’m not sure I’m seeing the point in comparing it to the local school. If public schools are measured as compared to state % or even national %, why shouldn’t charters? They serve the same kids and are supposed to be able to do it better.
dc
August 22nd, 2012
2:36 pm
So charters are a tool used primarily to help kids from severely under performing schools have a viable option to better themselves…and when these students (who are clearly behind, given their prior schooling) don’t outperform the rest of the state, suddenly it’s not a good use of funds….Seriously?
Would be even more interesting to see the stats on how many of the children who left “regular public schools” ended up graduating, going to college, going jail, not dropping out due to unwanted pregnancy, or the like, compared to the stats from the local public school from which they came.
In the end, the #1 driver should be to help those kids who actually want to learn and succeed in life, do exactly that.
DeKalb Teacher
August 22nd, 2012
2:39 pm
Lies, Damn Lies and statistics.
It’s important to note the difference between “conversion” charters and “startup” charters. To Pride and Joy’s point, if a school is really bad the district may decide to convert it into a charter. That school isn’t going to go from bottom of the barrel to shooting star over night. A conversion charter school’s scores might significantly increase while still being lower than the average public school. Conflating conversion and startup charters is a disservice to both.
Maureen Downey
August 22nd, 2012
2:42 pm
@dc, Part of the problem is the early rhetoric of the charter school movement and the terms of the first wave of charter contracts, which, in fact, required that the students outperform their peers in public schools. It was part of the selling point of charter schools.
There is a push in some quarters to stop judging charter schools by test scores alone and weigh parental satisfaction, safety, and soft skills. But, of course, every school would want that broader criteria applied to them.
So, not sure where that effort will go or where it should go.
Maureen
Pride and Joy
August 22nd, 2012
3:00 pm
Maureen, just as Mitch said, you are missing the point. There is a HUGE difference between Coan Middle School and Toomer Elementary School and the average traditional public school in Georgia.
Take Drew Charter’s academic scores and compare them to the academic scores of Toomer and Coan, the two schools that Drew Peterson Charter was created to avoid.
Coan and Toomer are horrendous failures. Their cheating test results are enormous, their academic scores are rock bottom and their discipline problems are astronomically bad.
Compare Drew to Toomer and Coan. THAT’S AN ACCURATE COMPARISON.
Mary Elizabeth
August 22nd, 2012
3:01 pm
“Last year, Gov. Nathan Deal purged the state board, replacing longtime members with his own appointees, most of whom support charter schools. So, it should be no surprise that board members disagree with Barge on the amendment question.
Barge, however, was elected statewide without much help from the GOP establishment.”
======================================================
I have believed, and I continue to believe, that the amendment to Georgia’s Constitution has more political ramifications than educational ones. Superintendent Barge stated last week that he could not support support “the creation of a new and costly state bureaucracy …(which) unnecessarily duplicates the good work already being done by local districts, the Georgia Department of Education, and the state Board of Education.”
Furthermore, there already exists, by law, a means of appeal for parents who are not satisfied with a local Board of Education’s decision regarding a specific charter school – and that is through appeal to Georgia’s Superintendent of Schools.
Please read the following link – that will elaborate upon political ramifications – which is a page from the thread on this blog entitled, “Our PolitiFact Georgia team looks at John Barge and charters: Not much of a flip”:
http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2012/08/21/our-politifact-georgia-team-looks-at-john-barge-and-charters-not-much-of-a-flip/?cp=2#comment-223344
Dr. Monica Henson
August 22nd, 2012
3:02 pm
I thought that was you sitting in the back.
Maureen Downey
August 22nd, 2012
3:03 pm
@Ron, Good point. If we started judging school systems on performance of specific demographics, the discussion about which systems are succeeding could change a great deal.
For instance, Atlanta Public Schools would be ranked among the top two in the state for white students, based on their performance on national tests, such as the SAT, with Decatur being the other top system.
Maureen
Maureen Downey
August 22nd, 2012
3:04 pm
@Dr. Henson, How come you didn’t speak? I think they needed your clarity.
Maureen
Pride and Joy
August 22nd, 2012
3:04 pm
Ron, you ask what difference does it make? Please allow me to explain. It makes ALL the difference.
The parents of children in Drew Charter do not have the option to put their children in any traditional public school. THey have an option to send their child to Drew Charter or to Coan Middle School.
Drew is a startling, smashing success compared to Coan Middle School. A good parent will choose the best optoin they have. Please keep in mind, a private school is not an optoin for these parents, not by any stretch of the imagination, neither is moving to a better school district. The choice is Drew Charter or Coan. That’s it. And it makes ALL the difference in their world.
Pride and Joy
August 22nd, 2012
3:15 pm
Maureen, you still don’t get it. I don’t know what tangent you’ve gone off of but please try to read it carefully so you understand….
Here’s my point:
It is fair and right to compare a charter school to the traditional public school it was meant to address.
It is unfair and not right to compaire a charter school to all GA traditional public schools.
WHY?
Let me explain.
Parents do not have the option of enrolling their child in ANY traditional public school in GA.
They have the option to enroll their child in the traditional public school for which they are zoned and the option to enroll in the charter school for which they qualifty.
That’s it.
People who choose charters are not an affluent crowd who can afford private school.
The choice is — the local traditional public school or the charter school.
Compare those two schools — which is better?
The better one is a success. That most often means the charter school.
AGAIN, hear me clearly — compare DREW charter school and COAN Middle School. By any measurement: academic scores, parental approval, childrens’ happiness and amount of money spent, Drew is a phenomenal success.
THAT’s WHAT MATTERS to a parent. As parents we need VIABLE options. Drew is viable. It workds. It succeeds. ….and it does it with no more money and heck of a lot less drama that the local traditional public school …and if you don’t publish this blog entry, you’re just being petty.
Mikey D.
August 22nd, 2012
3:19 pm
@Pride and Joy
I’m not understanding the point you’re trying to make… No one has said that Drew, or any other charters for that matter, shouldn’t exist. Quite the opposite. What was said (quite accurately) is that the state does not have millions of extra dollars lying around to fund a commission whose duties would be redundant to those of the state DOE.
dc
August 22nd, 2012
3:22 pm
@Maureen, I think that both are valid (better performance, and the fact that that doesn’t translate into better “statewide” performance. If compared to the schools from which the students came, I suspect you’ll see marked improvement in scores. The rest is incredibly important as well (the “life success” triggers), but I would think the scores would show improvement as well.
John Konop
August 22nd, 2012
3:23 pm
In fairness most of the statistics cited from both sides of this debate would fail a basic research methods class. The education community constantly compares numbers without taking into consideration the difference of students they are studying.
A few basic tips the education establishment should know:
1) Comparing mean numbers that are within 5% of each other is not relevant for ranking. It could be used for acceptable or unacceptable depending on how the sub sets are being compared ie high achieving vs. high achieving, special needs vs special needs depending on the diagnosis….
2) A true study of charter schools would be to track the achievement of the students who left public school vs. what they did in charter school the next year. Comparing charter numbers to high school numbers without that is basically speculative at best
3) Drop-out rates should be based on kids entering school by 9th grade and exiting school with a degree. If the number of kids on a macro drop from the 9th grade to 12th grade and our population is growing and or stagnate that is a good sign we are not counting kids
I could go on and on, but I do agree both sides spend more time spinning numbers than dealing in reality.
d
August 22nd, 2012
3:23 pm
@Pride and Joy – I think there is a glaring issue in your statement:
“A good parent will choose the best optoin [sic] they have.” I agree. However, what happens to the student if a parent does not keep his or her end of the bargain and volunteer at their local charter school? I have said it over and over and over until I have turned blue – the community and the parents make the school. A school is not a failure because of the students or the faculty there. If a school has strong community support, they will be a success because 1) the students will see there is a value to what they are doing in the school; 2) the faculty will work to remove the ineffective teachers because the community will demand it; and 3) the community has that vested interest in seeing the school succeed.
Pride and Joy
August 22nd, 2012
3:39 pm
d — here is where we disagree.
Parents and community affect a school but they do not have a monopoly on the outcomes.
I can send my child rested and fed to school but once they’re in that school, it is all up to the teachers and administrators.
I couldn’t teach the class if I’d wanted to because they won’t allow it and I am certain I could do a much better job. If you think a typs such as “optoin” is offfensive, you ought to read and hear the garbage that comes out of my childs’ teachers’ mouth. You would have to have (sic) programmed as a key on your keyboard.
You cannot put all the responsiblity for education on parents and the community. If you could, you should give back your teacher’s salary. That’s what parents and the community pay YOU TEACHERS to do.
If you aren’t doing your job — to teach — don’t cash your paycheck.
Just A Teacher
August 22nd, 2012
3:41 pm
I know some of my postings have been snide, but I agree very strongly with Superintendent Barge on this issue. The state has been cutting funding to public schools for a decade and now, in the midst of the great recession, they somehow have enough money to fabricate an entirely new administrative beauracracy. It seems absurd to take much needed funding from traditional public schools in order to do so. Bring teacher salaries up to an acceptable level, eliminate furlough days, fully fund traditional public schools and THEN start spending whatever money is left in the DOE coffers.
Ray
August 22nd, 2012
3:46 pm
Pride and Joy’s comparison of Drew Charter to Coan middle is not valid. During APS’s recent redistricting process, the data showed that only 54% of the middle school aged students who lived in the Coan middle zone actually attended Coan — and many/most of those who didn’t go to Coan went to Drew. The 54% left behind at Coan are largely the lower 50% of the students in the area. If you start a charter school, and then populate it with the better students from the traditional local public school, leaving the bottom half behind at the public school, then its no wonder which school will have higher test scores.
Dr. Monica Henson
August 22nd, 2012
3:57 pm
Maureen, I didn’t expect for them to open the floor, and I hadn’t prepared any remarks. I’ve posted my thoughts here on the blog
I tend to get a little folksy in my discussion of the politics…
Pride and Joy
August 22nd, 2012
4:08 pm
To Anon for this 1 — I don’t know the answer to your question but it’s a fair one. One other thing to consider — Pre-K is free as well.
Also, Drew has a priority of getting low income students from the poorest area that school serves.
If you ever saw the studetns at Drew I think you’d undersatnd better. They are all poor and black. Drewis aobut 99 percent black and 100 percent poor and lower middle class, yet their success compared to the local schools is astronomical.
Drew also spends less money educating these kids than the local traditional public schools.
For anyone to try to make any argument for closing Drew and forcing those kids into the cess pool thta is COAN is not to be counted among the humane.
Pride and Joy
August 22nd, 2012
4:10 pm
Ray, you’re making my point for me.
COAN is a horrendous failure. That’s why COAN was nearly closed. The school was so bad hardly anyone wanted to attend it.
That’s why Drew Charter opened — as a response to the horrible middle school known as Coan.
My point is valid and accurate.
Don’t know why you can’t see that.
Mountain Man
August 22nd, 2012
4:25 pm
Barge is against the Amendment because he says $430 million will be taken away from public schools and given to charter schools. If you go research the amendment, it does not say anything about $430 million. In fact, it specifically says that money that local public schools are entitled to CANNOT be cut. So why is Barge against something that will give parents options, take some students out of public schools (without taking their local funding), and paying for them with other state funds?
yuzeyurbrane
August 22nd, 2012
4:39 pm
Thank you again Superintendent Barge for clearly pointing out the “the Emperor has no clothes”. Unfortunately for you and Georgia, Deal is a vindictive son of a gun and I am not sure you will ever teach in Georgia again, much less be elected to public office.
Ron F.
August 22nd, 2012
4:43 pm
Pride: I don’t doubt the improvement over the “competition”, but at some point we’re going to have to look at where they rank the same way we do traditional public schools. After all, that data is always used as part of the push to establish a charter. As I noted earlier, if the charter is ten or twenty points higher than its local competitors, that proves they’re doing something good, no doubt. But if they are still below state or national averages that are also used to judge the traditional public school, then we’re not getting the whole picture. I don’t doubt the efficacy of charters, especially in places like APS and Dekalb where there are obviously lots of issues. I just think if we’re going to continue to cast aspersions, we need to hold all schools to the same standards. I know it takes time for any change to reach its potential, but after five years, I’d expect to be exceeding not only the local competitors but the state averages as well.
Another Math Teacher
August 22nd, 2012
4:44 pm
Good Mother, after all of your previous trolling, how do you expect anyone to take anything you say seriously? Even if you make a point, you’re about as believable as the boy who cried wolf.
Ron F.
August 22nd, 2012
4:46 pm
Mountain Man: this is the state legislature we’re talking about, so I don’t hold much regard for them right now. What happens when they discover, as we already know, that there isn’t enough money to get the charters going they want to fund? I can’t think of where they’ll get it, and I’d expect to see some legislation flying around to “adjust” funding formulas for existing schools. It wouldn’t surprise me one bit.
Marney
August 22nd, 2012
4:49 pm
I feel I ought to give back by my GPAN “power to the parent” award. I feel very powerless these days and have no energy for this fight.
Huge cuts to the magnet program my kids are now in, and huge drop in $$ to the start-up charter they used to be in. Both worthy, trying to be different, and make a difference. It seems like the opposite sides of the same shrinking coin.
I remember in the olden days that the slogan of GCSA was: “A public school of your own”… Who in their right mind would want one these days?
Maureen Downey
August 22nd, 2012
4:57 pm
@yuze, I have no doubt that John Barge will win a second term, if he wants one. This entire debate on charter schools is being done at the administrative level for the most part and among the small fraction of parents in charter schools. Most Georgians have no dog in this fight. I meet people every day without school-age children who have no idea what a charter school is. Nor do they really care. And that is not a criticism; they have other things on their minds.
From the Census: Of 3.5 million households in Georgia, 1.13 million have children under the age of 18.
Maureen
Ned
August 22nd, 2012
4:58 pm
Maureen–
I agree that you are not necessarily getting “Pride’s” point: the valid comparison for charter schools is vs. what the students would have done in their “home” schools. As John Konop stated eloquently: “A true study of charter schools would be to track the achievement of the students who left public school vs. what they did in charter school the next year. Comparing charter numbers to high school numbers without that is basically speculative at best.” and 73% vs. 70% is very likely not statistically significant anyway.
And please people–not all charter schools are the same. There are conversions, start-ups, county-funded (at less per student than county schools), state funded/chartered, the perversion of the charter ideal know as “for-profit charters” , charter systems such as Decatur. . . Please don’t paint all these schools with one “charter” brush
Mikey D.
August 22nd, 2012
5:00 pm
@Mountain Man
Georgia law also SPECIFICALLY says that the legislature must fund the QBE formula, but they haven’t done it yet ever since the QBE law was passed 25 years ago. Not once.
I’m glad you have faith in our friends under the gold dome, but they’ve given most of us no reason whatsoever to trust that they would ever do what they say (even when it’s legally required!)
Chunter
August 22nd, 2012
5:04 pm
Witnessing the blood crusade against parental choice waged daily in this blog—by the moderator and various incarnations (her words) of a small coterie of teachers’ union bloggers—I wonder why so very much angst is generated over fellow citizens passionate about giving charter schools the chance to provide their kids a better chance in life.
Do we not all agree that failure is the legacy of too many of Atlanta’s inner city schools?
Is the primary issue here the pay and benefits of teachers and the revenues of teachers’ union bosses? Can’t teaching innovations be allowed to prove or disprove their own worth? Will experimentation likely present results worse than those we’ve come to expect from traditional public schools in the inner city?
Freedom to choose. Shouldn’t that be every parent’s right?
Pride and Joy
August 22nd, 2012
5:05 pm
Ron, you wrote “But if they are still below state or national averages that are also used to judge the traditional public school, then we’re not getting the whole picture.”
I respectfully disagree with that statement.
Traditional public schools in GA are rated by their test scores. Did the students score an acceptable level on the CRCT? If they did, the school maintains its funding and is allowed to exist. We don’t rank traditional public schools in GA and close the bottom percentage as your statement indicates.
So the same measurement should apply to charter schools. Are they making the scores needed to pass the CRCT or equivalent? Or are they making a marked improvement over the local traditional public school it was meant to address? If the answer is yes, then fund the charter at the expense of the traditional public school in the area.
I mean just that. Take money away from the failing traditional public school and give it to the charter school. If that means the traditional public school has to lay off teachers and close schools, good riddance.
We cannot afford to continue to give money to failing traditional public schools.
I think in your gut, Ron, you know that’s true.
Why would we keep any government institution open that didn’t succeed? especially when we had another, more viable optoin that isn’t more expensive?
If the DMV couldn’t process driver’s licenses accurately in an acceptable amount of time and we had a charter DMV that could process the driver’s licenses more accurate and in less time and with the same amount of money you wouldn’t argue against a charter DMV.
Opponents of charter schools have two hidden agendas — protecting their jobs and protecting their power.
Everything else is just a smoke screen.
Mikey D.
August 22nd, 2012
5:10 pm
@Chunter, aka Jane W., aka Google NEA…
How ironic that you accuse others of being various incarnations. That’s a pretty good one.
Also, “blood crusade”? Your rhetoric is over the top, as usual. But at least your good for a laugh every now and then.
Mikey D.
August 22nd, 2012
5:11 pm
**you’re**
Ned
August 22nd, 2012
5:30 pm
A couple of the anti-charter arguments, as I understand them:
–take money away from the larger school system
–create elitist systems/schools of ’select’ kids–by which is implied (by some), create white islands in the midst of minority majority areas
Could not these complaints apply to the City Schools of Decatur , a charter system attended by kids who would otherwise be in DeKalb schools with their relatively wealthy parents contributing property taxes for DCSS, Maureen?
Chuntter
August 22nd, 2012
5:32 pm
@Mikey D:
How ironic that you accuse others of being various incarnations. That’s a pretty good one. But at least you’re good for a laugh every now and then.
And yes, as you suggest, readers should Google “NEA” and “donations” and later go here to see who’s paying for much of the opposition to charter schools.
5:30 pm
August 22nd, 2012
5:42 pm
@Pride and Joy:
You’re perhaps already aware that contrary opinions are not welcomed by Maureen and her teacher union comrades. That’s why your comments are being “delayed” or blocked entirely.
Ron F.
August 22nd, 2012
5:56 pm
“So the same measurement should apply to charter schools. Are they making the scores needed to pass the CRCT or equivalent? Or are they making a marked improvement over the local traditional public school it was meant to address?”
Not quite, Pride. Pass/fail on CRCT, yes. Judge both by the same metric. But, tthe charters don’t deserve an “or” in that judgment. If they’re showing improvement that continues up, then the argument will be moot in a few years anyway. But if they aren’t making progress, then something isn’t working, and they don’t deserve the money just because they’re a few points ahead of the “competition”. There are too many factors that can’t ever make that fair. Look, I think failing schools, whether traditional public or charter, should have their adminstrations cleared out if they don’t make the grade within a five year span. Look at the turnaround at Smokey Rd. MS in Coweta. I haven’t read about a lot of faculty replacements, although I’m sure there were some. Whatever the type of school your child is in, it should be expected to perform. I don’t see how we’re going to get anywhere by pitting the two types of schools against each other. One of my concerns in this debate is that while many say “we want to succeed so you can learn from us”, what I’m reading here and elsewhere is that they want to close one system down in favor of the other. And that’s not going to solve all the problems; it will just transfer them to the charter system. I do agree with you that an underperforming school should be either restaffed or closed, whether public or charter. But I think it’s fair to use the same metric to measure them.
Ron F.
August 22nd, 2012
6:00 pm
“We cannot afford to continue to give money to failing traditional public schools.”
And they’re not all failing. And not all charters are succeeding either. Ending the public school system isn’t the answer, nor is converting everything to charter schools. We have to find the means going forward to learn to work together where we can, and that’s possible if the leadership of a district will encourage it. We need to gut the administrative level of many school districts. But there are those, like mine, that run on a very small county administration and are doing quite well.
Maureen Downey
August 22nd, 2012
6:05 pm
@5:30, You must be new here. Pride and Joy is our most prolific commenter and he/she only has contrary opinions. And if you think his/her comments don’t get published, I suggest you do a count. I just did. More than 300 under the current moniker and more than 1,000 under the prior screen name. (There were other screen names, but I just searched the last two.)
There is a simple explanation to comments that I put in moderation: Too many complaints of personal attacks, of off-topic comments or repetitive postings. There is also automatic moderation — when the program itself puts posters in moderation, typically due to length or too many links or a suspicious link. And some of you end up in spam, which I used to check. However, as the blog has grown in readership, so has the spam for Viagra and computers and cheap handbags. There can be 120 pieces of spam in a few hours times in the filter. Can’t go through them any longer to try and find the handful of bona fide comments that may end up there for unclear reasons.
Maureen
Maureen Downey
August 22nd, 2012
6:14 pm
@To all, Speaking of regular posters, I suggested to Jordan that she consider offering one of her great pieces to Ed Week, and she did and they did. Congrats to her for getting published there. When I did a daily column on local events for the AJC 20 years ago, I had a recent college grad stringing for me on music and suggested he send his stuff to Rolling Stone. He did and is now one of their most well known staff writers and gets to hang out with Bruce and Madonna for cover pieces.
I think Jordan is next for fame and fortune.
http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2012/08/22/01kohanim.h32.html?tkn=ZUZFHvRaPbdS9yU2TZhCUapHEgjYRpVs0XsN&cmp=clp-edweek
Let's See the Charter
August 22nd, 2012
6:26 pm
@Maureen -Do you have a copy of Drew’s charter? Going to the school to make an appointment to see a charter that can easily be scanned and posted is inconvenient.
@Pride and Joy -Drew is allowed to make students who fail go back to Toomer and Coan, their home schools. Toomer and Coan will have to “keep” the lowest performing student; it’s by design. Comparing Toomer and Coan is therefore not an apples to apples comparison. Drew is NOT a state commission approved charter school. It was approved by APS, Drew does not belong in this discussion. Heritage Prep enrolls a much lower number of special needs and ESOL students than the comparable neighborhood school and their test scores are worse.
Long Time Teacher
August 22nd, 2012
6:38 pm
Could Pride and Joy lay it to rest. I’m tired of your rambling.
5:30 pm
August 22nd, 2012
6:45 pm
“There is a simple explanation to comments that I put in moderation: Too many complaints of personal attacks, of off-topic comments or repetitive postings. There is also automatic moderation — when the program itself puts posters in moderation, typically due to length or too many links or a suspicious link.” — (Maureen)
@Pride and Joy: What Maureen’s saying above is that the cadre of fellow teachers’ union comrades in arms … will continue to have a free hand coordinating “complaints” to block or significantly delay your critical comments.
As for “automatic” moderation triggered by too frequent or lengthy postings—I give you Mary Elizabeth and Ron F (assuming they’re not in fact the same person).
John Konop
August 22nd, 2012
6:45 pm
Maureen and I have openly debated issues on her blog. You may disagree with Maureen, but to doubt her integrity on allowing and or filtering opinions she does not agree with on the blog is just flat out wrong! Maureen does not only engage people she disagrees on issues, she also seeks information from views she does not agree with. This is the best education blog bottom line!
Maureen Downey
August 22nd, 2012
7:05 pm
@Let’s See: I don’t have a copy. You could check with APS; they may keep the charters online at their site as Drew is an APS school.
Maureen
Jerry Eads
August 22nd, 2012
7:17 pm
Maureen has the point – to most of us, the charter debate is an insignificant issue. My guess is also that John should have no problem getting a second term. More dangerous is the sleight of hand wording of the amendment summary on the ballot this fall. I’m sure P.T. Barnum would be very pleased with whatever the authors come up with.
It is fascinating that this keeps turning into a debate about charter schools. It’s not that at all: the issue is about state versus local control and, still inexplicably, elected representatives who purport to be conservative want greater central nonrepresentative control. Even Kyle Wingfield is arguing for central control. The world is upside down.
CTR
August 22nd, 2012
7:30 pm
@Maureen
Did you read this last Sunday column by Kyle Wingfield, “Barge wrong on Charters”? How do you address his points? To quote a few of his finer points…
“A commission might seem duplicative… But as the majority opinion notes, the court did not address the school board’s authority because it wasn’t asked to do so.”
“First the supplemental spending for charters this year, about $33 million, amounts to just 2.9 percent of this ear’s education shortfall, less than $20 per student”
“Most damning of all, though is that local systems stand to save money that far exceeds that ‘extra’ spending by the state.” This year that state supplement of $33 million covers almost 16,000 students at state charterd schools. But the average local school system in Georgia spent almost $3,700 per student in 2011… At 16,000 students, that comes out to local savings of about $58.6 million. At that rate, local systems would save about $750 million over five years.”
Thoughts?
John Konop
August 22nd, 2012
7:31 pm
Jerry,
It is also an issue about tax payer liability. I do think charter schools can play a roll in the eduction system. But tax payers should not be put at a larger risk than a private company running the school.
John Konop
August 22nd, 2012
7:45 pm
Ctr,
I am a businessman not a writer, politician…….. In answering your question fixed overhead is a material expense in running a school unless you go virtual. Since public schools have fixed overhead ie buildings it seems if run right they would be cheaper. The real way to save money is a ombination of the following:
1) The promotion of vitirual eduction ie home school/public school option
2) Elimating No Child Left Behind teach to the test mandates, which top countries in the old in education do the opposite
3) Creating vocational options for students not 4 year college bound
4) Expanding Cross utilization of colleges and high schools via joint enrollment, facilities and administration
5) Foster an intern/co-op environment
6). Cordinate charter and private school options with the public schools
This sound bite debate is killing real reform!
Bernie
August 22nd, 2012
7:57 pm
The Republicans Here in Georgia and across the Nation deride anything and everything that is State Funded and is designed to assist their Citizens as a hand out for Free Loaders. Welfare is the typical coined term. How is that A New $430 million
dollar program named The State Charter School Plan not being considered a NEW WELFARE PROGRAM?
State funded Welfare in Education…is still WELFARE!
A WELFARE program that is overwhelmingly approved and accepted by The Republican and Tea Party supporters. Such hypocrisy and thinking goes beyond the pale of logical and reasonable thinking.
These are the same FOLKS who LOVE the FETUS, but HATE The CHILD.
Go Figure!
3schoolkids
August 22nd, 2012
8:13 pm
@Let’s See: Please click link to see Drew’s charter from the DOE website
http://archives.gadoe.org/DMGetDocument.aspx/Charles%20R.%20Drew%20Charter%20School%20Charter.pdf?p=6CC6799F8C1371F62AF97DE261372BD9EC6FBA8CFD5160FE7B7F8B79272E329C&Type=D
Neither the school’s website or the charter references the preschool or prek at all so I would not think enrollment in the prek would influence enrollment unless the student also met the requirements set in their enrollment priorities that would already put them at the top of the list.
Interesting to note that the school’s application process requires the new student application to be complete (including records like grades, test scores and discipline information) in order to be enrolled/registered or go into the lottery, whereas the charter agreement states that only information used to prove residency can be requested until after enrollment. Their enrollment process conflicts with their charter agreement.
Mary Elizabeth
August 22nd, 2012
8:17 pm
Jerry Eads, 7:17 pm
“It is fascinating that this keeps turning into a debate about charter schools. It’s not that at all: the issue is about state versus local control and, still inexplicably, elected representatives who purport to be conservative want greater central nonrepresentative control. . .The world is upside down.”
===============================================
What is happening in Georgia, relative to this issue, is similar to what is happening in national politics. And, I do not think that that is coincidental.
Marney
August 22nd, 2012
8:21 pm
The drew charter petition, along with every other approved petition is located on the DOE website link below:
http://www.doe.k12.ga.us/External-Affairs-and-Policy/Charter-Schools/Pages/Approved-Charter-Schools.aspx
I am surprised and disappointed that so much strongly opinionated text and the collective lot of you don’t even know where the basic documents are.
And disappointed that none of you responded to my earlier post.
@left1
August 22nd, 2012
8:55 pm
Um, no, charter schools are GEORGIA schools receiving GEORGIA funds which share funds with public schools. They should definitely be judged using state standards. They must be compared using state scores. If not, who would feel better about having their child there? Performing schools must be quality compared to all.
LD
August 22nd, 2012
9:08 pm
@dc 2:36 “…and when these students (who are clearly behind, given their prior schooling) ”
This is a false assumption; just because a family chooses to attend a charter school does not mean that their zoned school is failing academically (and thus, the student is behind in academics). In my area, there are 2 charter schools that could serve my children. I investigated both, thoroughly. One actually underperforms my zoned school and the other is not statistically different. Most of the people I know who have attended either of those schools went for different reasons – not primarily academics.
Jerry Eads
August 22nd, 2012
9:14 pm
I agree, John.
CTR, perhaps Maureen will also respond. Like the rest of the central-control right wingers (NOT to be confused with “conservative”), he’s cherry-picked a few numbers to try to convince folks that public schools are worthless ne’er do wells, and the local representative system of school governance (and, by association, local government in general) is incapable.
Does a political appointee commission with free reign and without representative responsibility seem duplicative? No, it IS duplicative. We need a court to decide that?
Thanks to the previous “governor” the schools had BILLIONS stolen from their budgets. $33 million might seem small potatoes especially when you con people with extractions like “that’s only $20 per student,” but aside from all the other budget casualties like music, art, theater, nonvarsity sports and some schools down from 180 to what was it – 143 days, we’re ALSO down from almost 120,000 teachers to 111,000 a year or so ago (up a bit now, I understand). If you think that’s had no effect on Georgia education you are mistaken. Schools are incredibly lean and every cent counts. 20 bux a kid is a LOT of money.
Finally, an argument that says taking the best and brightest kids (because that’s what happens) from public schools will save them $millions is preposterous. Wingfield should be removed from his position – if not committed to an asylum – for being deluded enough to make such an obvious misrepresentation. The schools STILL have to spend the same dollars on each student in class. He writes as if schools were private for-profit businesses. The probability that an independent charter approved by an appointed commission likely handed to a private management firm subject to no competent oversight will save the taxpayer money, much less actually do a decent job of educating kids, I would infer from the research I’ve read, is rather slim. (Sorry Maureen – terrible sentence.)
mountain man
August 22nd, 2012
9:16 pm
“Most of the people I know who have attended either of those schools went for different reasons ”
So why, pray tell, did these parents send their kids there for?
Why.....
August 22nd, 2012
9:19 pm
… Is it so many people on this comment trail just don’t get it – or refuse to actually consider what this amendment is really about and what it is not about.
IT IS NOT about whether Charter Schools should or should not exist and be approved – nor whether they should receive some share of any available state funds.
Those schools exist, are approved often and are operating – just like the two new ones mentioned in the story.
IT IS about Governor Deal’s desire to see these decisions on which ones are approved and which ones aren’t made by people he alone selects and appoints and who are beholden and loyal to him.
That’s it people – the debate is not about the legitimacy or benefit of charter schools in the right situation. It is a pure old fashioned power war and Deal simply can’t stand that he doesn’t have control.
Let's See the "Original" Charter
August 22nd, 2012
9:24 pm
@Maureen = @ Marny in my last post.
Lance
August 22nd, 2012
9:25 pm
Mark Peevy is an idiot educrat. He and the previous Chair and members of that Charter Commission were on a path to kill local schools and bankrupt the state….all so Jan Jones can segregate schools.
John Konop
August 22nd, 2012
9:27 pm
Also Mr. Winfield does not include the expense of educated special needs students which is about 11 percent. Rather Irronic since Mr. Winfield supports forcing women to have special needs kids, yet wants to short change their education.
Pride and Joy
August 22nd, 2012
9:37 pm
To Let’s See the Charter — Drew DOES belong in this discussion. It is a discussion about charter schools and Drew is a genuine charter school. I think you don’t like talking about Drew because Drew is a success and you just hate that.
Ron F.
August 22nd, 2012
9:41 pm
@ Jerry 9:14: study privatization in the military- it was touted as a money saver early on also. Hasn’t worked and military spending has done nothing but go up. Nice boost for the industries assuming those roles, bad for taxpayers. Privatization in education has both profit and social control motivations. The more that is controlled privately, the less transparency and public accountability there is. That makes it easier to get away with a lot that public schools would never be able to do, and you get to take advantage of everyone’s tax money to pay for it.
LD
August 22nd, 2012
9:49 pm
@mountain man: delivery model, extra curriculars & electives (for example, one offered guitar as a music class, our zoned school did not), uniforms, social (friends were or were not going), field trip and school trip opportunities. There are many aspects to a school in addition to academics.
Mary Elizabeth
August 22nd, 2012
9:50 pm
@John Konop, 7:45 pm
“6). Cordinate charter and private school options with the public schools”
===============================================
This educational suggestion concerns me. I do not want to see the taxes that I pay on my home, which are intended to be used for the public education of all of society’s children, being used to pay for the education of some of this state’s children within private schools. I have no problem with private schools educating some of the young of Georgia, but I do not believe that this should be done with public tax money. I have not had a child in school for 13 years. I am a senior citizen who gladly supports, however, using my tax money to educate all citizens’ children, tomorrow’s leaders, through public taxes which are used to pay for public schools.
I think you would need to be more specific about how you visualize “coordinat(ing)” “private school school options with the public schools” for me to understand how, specifically, this would be accomplished logistically, and what this would mean relative to funding and taxes.
———————————————————————
I support the following excellent suggestions which you made:
“3) Creating vocational options for students not 4 year college bound
4) Expanding Cross utilization of colleges and high schools via joint enrollment, facilities and administration
5) Foster an intern/co-op environment”
LD
August 22nd, 2012
9:52 pm
@John 9:27 – actually, the numbers I’ve seen for the percentage for special education in a large district is roughly 30% of the funds for 10% of the students.
John Konop
August 22nd, 2012
9:58 pm
Ld,
I was referring to the amount of students with the 11 percent number. And you are right the amount to educate special needs students is substantially more.
John Konop
August 22nd, 2012
10:05 pm
The concept of coordination could be done within the system ie math and science, autistic school, arts, vocational…….it could be created by the public school system which Cherokee is rolling out or it could be done via an alliance ie joint enrollment, charter school……the bottom line is sharing resources to lower cost and increase quality.
Pride and Joy
August 22nd, 2012
10:10 pm
Ron F, you’re not listening. YOu said “Ending the public school system isn’t the answer, nor is converting everything to charter schools. ”
I don’t advocate for closing all public schools. I advocate closing the bad ones and allowing charter schools where they are wanted.
As I said before, many traditoinal public schools like the one my husband attended are the pride of a community. Where good public schools educate, communities thrive.
But… here in APS good schools are few.
We parents have to have an optoin other than allowing the traditional public school system to take our money without giving us a viable decent public school. We have to have a way out — a quick one. Our children cannot wallow and languish for years on a rotten, failing public school like Coan.
Let's See the "Original" Charter
August 22nd, 2012
10:26 pm
This was posted on the wrong article initially-
@Marny- Thanks for the link. However, Drew started in 2000. This charter is for the 2005-2010 renewal. APS does not seem to have the original at the district office. Current APS staff members just saw the portion that is on the DOE site when they recommended renewal. The personnel that approved the original charter are no longer in the same type positions with the district or are no longer with the district. I guess my question should be can someone post a link of the “original” charter. It could be possible the educators at the school who mentioned they send students who fail back to their home school are lying about the charter giving them the power to do so or the school is acting outside the charter.
@Pride and Joy- Parents were given choice in schools (with transportation) under No Child Left Behind if the home school did not meet AYP. The State of Georgia also gave the parents the option to transfer their children within school districts to schools that had room. http://www1.legis.ga.gov/legis/2009_10/pdf/hb251.pdf
This article is about State Commission Charter schools so only the 13 approved schools are germane to the Constitutional Amendment
This whole Georgia charter debate on this blog has revolved around Metro-Atlanta schools. I have heard little to no discussion about the effect of charter schools will have on rural counties that have only one school per school level.
Trim my Fat
August 22nd, 2012
10:27 pm
How sad, as a Republican, to see that “No child Left Behind” has made most of this mess…….when
Romney wins and purges the ELEMENT in the White House, hopefully he can go about repealing NCLB as well as RTTT. I’m not holding my breath, and SHAME on my party!
Mark Peevy
August 22nd, 2012
10:32 pm
@Lance……to set the record straight, the majority of my working career have been spent either on Active Duty as an Army Officer or as an entrepreneur/business owner in the private sector. My interest in the charter school arena developed from my involvement as a volunteer for a charter school effort in my own community several years ago, and that experience led me to devote my efforts more directly to bringing more public school options to Georgia. My three children attend traditional public schools in our community, and I certainly have no interest in killing the very schools that my own kids attend.
3schoolkids
August 22nd, 2012
10:33 pm
@John Konop 9:27 I am very offended by your insensitive remarks referencing abortion. Are we to assume all chidren that are aborted would be born special needs?
Regarding your clustering of resources, if you had a child with autism you would know exactly why your idea of a specialized autistic school would not work.
FYI while the cost to educate a special needs child is higher than a general ed student, any parent who has had a child in the system knows that the school district knows how to manage the funds so that they are not actually using that dollar amount just on that one child. This is why mainstreaming is the method of choice right now. This is also why charters will usually take a special needs child that is higher functioning-they can put them in a regular classroom at a higher rate of funding than a general ed student.
Pride and Joy
August 22nd, 2012
10:35 pm
To Jerry Eads –
listen to what you just said “Maureen has the point – to most of us, the charter debate is an insignificant issue.”
If the issue was truly insignificant, then why does Maureen devote so much time and effort to them on her blogs? Just scan the month’s worth of blogs, look how many are about charters.
What is accurate though is that charters are significant to one group in particular — the public school employee crowd, which is most of her readership and 90% of all posters on the blog.
That’s why she devotes so much time and effort in her own blogs over an issue she herself calls insignificant — charter schools are a genuine threat to traidtoinal public school employees because where charters work where the traditional school doesn’t, it makes public school employees look bad and incompetent and one might assume the employee may lose his/his job or power.
3schoolkids
August 22nd, 2012
10:53 pm
Really tired of the “union” argument. How about the GCSA? They have membership fees so all schools who belong have paid for their membership in exchange for lobbying assistance. Even the charter authorizers are members, that means the Governor’s charter commission will have to pay a fee to belong.
John Konop
August 22nd, 2012
10:58 pm
3school,
I am sorry if you were offended. But nowhere in my comment did I ever say all kids aborted are special needs. My point was simple if you are pro-life and are for short changing special needs kids as well as not providing healthcare for kids that parents do not have the money, that would make you pro birth not pro life. You understand kids do not pick their parents?
As far as funding for special needs, in general charter schools do not take nearly their ratio relative to public schools. One reason is the transportation issue for some of the students. My main point is the cost of educating special needs kids in general is way more. And that would make the math incorrect that Mr. Winfield used unless he would short change special needs kids on a macro.
I do know of schools that do specialize education for autistic students. In fact I have a friend that is using a private school that provides special needs education for their child. Mainstreaming does not work well for all kids depending on the circumstances. If you talk with special needs teachers like my wife I am sure they will explain some of the issues with mainstreaming, especially to fast.
Mary Elizabeth
August 22nd, 2012
11:05 pm
@John Konop, 10:05 pm
“The concept of coordination could be done within the system ie math and science, autistic school, arts, vocational…….it could be created by the public school system which Cherokee is rolling out or it could be done via an alliance ie joint enrollment, charter school……the bottom line is sharing resources to lower cost and increase quality.”
I like that plan very much. I, however, would not want to see ordinary private schools as part of that mix, unless the specific private schools were created to serve only special education students, such as those with Autism (which you mention) or those with Learning Disabilities, etc.
Your suggestion would be an excellent way to foster harmonious collaboration between traditional public schools and public charter schools – which both would legitimately use public tax dollars to operate.
Ron F.
August 22nd, 2012
11:20 pm
Pride: when you consider that the overwhelming majority of charter schools are approved locally, I’d say the employees of the traditional schools don’t really see them as a “threat”. An alternative, that done right can be very beneficial, yes. At some point, you need to realize that painting us all as the enemy could cost you important support you need. We vote too, you know, and you need our support. While I think charter schools offer an important alternative and ability to specialize that traditional public schools can’t, I find it hard to give my support when even those of us who do care, are dedicated, and truly make a difference are spoken of derisively. Something to think about, perhaps.
d
August 22nd, 2012
11:47 pm
I have never once said that it isn’t my job to teach the curriculum to children. That is what my contract says my job is. What I was saying is that it is much easier and results in more success (and not just measuring test scores) when the parents and community are involved. I never said parents and the community should do the teaching. I said they should support. As far as the typo, I just wanted to make it clear that I did not make it. I don’t care if someone has a small typo here, but I had someone question my teaching ability when I didn’t catch that autocorrect changed what I intended to be “whose” into “who’s.”
No school can be successful if the parents expect the teachers to do it all on their own.
bootney farnsworth
August 23rd, 2012
12:17 am
after all this back and forth, my original question stands – where’s the money coming from?
Marney
August 23rd, 2012
7:09 am
@ let’s see Each charter is a unique contract with a start AND end date. So if it ever was true–which I doubt–that would have legally ended with the contracted end date of that charter. I have been involved in 3 charter renewals for a 10 year old start-up, and I can attest that each received significantly more scrutiny than the prior. You have a self-serving administrator and it needs to be run up the flag pole…to the principal and then board of Drew, then to APS administration and the state DOE (in parallel) since they are both equal parties to the charter contract. But I would argue that bad apples are always bad apples, no matter what barrel they are in.
Pride and Joy
August 23rd, 2012
8:08 am
Ron F you said ” At some point, you need to realize that painting us all as the enemy could cost you important support you need. ”
I don’t need your support, Ron. MY CHILDREN DO NOT ATTEND CHARTER SCHOOLS. I pulled my children out of a traditional public school and put them into a private school. I am lucky I had that option. Poor people don’t have that option. Their only hope of a decent educatoin where I live is a charter school
I, like Mary Elizabeth, am an advocate for traditoinal public schools but here is where we differ. I will not stand by and say that because my children are in a good place, I don’t care about the rest of this nation’s children.
I came from poor and from the lower-middle class.
Education lifted me out of that situation. My parents were uninvolved in the school Neither were my friends’ parents.
I went to a poor school with some lame excuses for teachers but I also had some good ones which made all the difference.
Education is for all American citizens.
We cannot continue to save all traditoinal public schools simply because they are traditional public schools.
When traditional public schools work, leave them alone. They are the pride of a community. When traditional public schools don’t work, we need an escape hatch to save the children.
Charters are that escape hatch.
It’s that simple.
Pride and Joy
August 23rd, 2012
8:30 am
To Let’s See — You wrote “The State of Georgia also gave the parents the option to transfer their children within school districts to schools that had room.”
“Had room” is the key phrase.
The “decent” public schools in my area are already severely overcrowded.I mean severely. So transferring is not an optoin in reality. But don’t you know that the crooked school administratoin employees are allowed to put their kids into any school they want regardless of severe overcrowding.
I also agree with you that the charter debate centers around metro Atlanta. Maureen’s blog often pinpoints Atlanta because that is where she lives. The State Capitol is five miles from her home in Decatur so going to press conferences and meetings is feasible. Also, metro Atlanta has most of the state’s schools. THrefore, that’s where most of her readers are from.
About those rural schools you mentioned. I was brought up in a rural area. A decent charter school would have benefitted my community. If your rural school does well and is teaching well, I don’t think you have to worry that it will be replaced.
If you ever go to Atlanta, I recommend you visit the City of Atlanta Public Schools. Then, you’ll better understand the outcry for charter schools. The local school board and many of the schools within in are lying, cheating and stealing money from we tax payers and at the same time not educating our children. It is a tragedy that affects all of us. When those children are not educated they cannot find work. Without work, you and I as tax payers have to pay for their welfare, health care and prison costs.
I don’t mind the government taking my money to educate kids;however, I am furious when they take it from me and don’t educate the kids.
Pride and Joy
August 23rd, 2012
8:46 am
TO WHy — You wrote “IT IS about Governor Deal’s desire to see these decisions on which ones are approved and which ones aren’t made by people he alone selects and appoints and who are beholden and loyal to him.”
Why, you don’t undestand why we NEED the State to approve charters. Errol Davis, The APS super did not want to approve Drew Charter School’s request to open grades 9-12.
Currently, Drew is for K-8. What Drew discovered is that all the gaiins for children in their k-8 program were lost when they had to reenter the system in the traditional public school in the area. It didn’t do any good to teach the childrne in k-8 because they were forced to go to the lousy public school for high school.
What was Errol’s reason? He’s just dumped more money into the traditional public high school. He wanted to force those Drw kids to attend the money pit of a high school.
That’s why we need the State. The local politicians cannot be trusted.
And as for the argument about local control — there is no more local control that the local parents. We are being shoved around and bullied by the local boards we have zero control over. My vote doesn’t count.
Hey Teacher
August 23rd, 2012
8:55 am
Back to the original post — what would be the advantage of having a state sponsored charter school and how are they funded? I’m also not very clear on the advantages of having a “charter system” — isn’t there just one pot of money for the entire state?
Re: Drew Charter — the population there has changed significantly as discussed in a previous GS blog and is not 99% black and low SES.
http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2012/07/10/drew-charter-school-will-get-to-open-its-high-school/
Linda
August 23rd, 2012
9:59 am
Pride and Joy, you have mentioned many times that Drew Charter does a better job with the same amount of money as traditional schools. The reality is that they have other forms of support, obviously not at tax payer expense, but that support is costly to someone (no such thing as a free lunch). Don’t you think all children deserve this level of support? Why are you against making all traditional schools as good as Drew? Do you even believe it is possible? It seems that you want to throw some children away simply because they do not have the type of parents who are motivated enough to get them into a charter school such as Drew. I agree, they are great, but this is simply what all schools should look like. THAT is what we need to fight for; not the right to forgot some less fortunate children. It may cost more, but surely it is worth it. I am curious, what do you feel are the barriers to all students receiving such an education?
Ron F.
August 23rd, 2012
10:00 am
Pride: thanks for the clarification. I thought with all the clamor, you had to have children in the system. I’ll clarify- the charter schools need our support. Your experience understandably affects your views. Just remember there are many of us trying to help kids, even in some of the poor performing schools. Test scores at the end of the year don’t tell the whole story, as you point out with your ideas about how charter schools should be measured.
bdawg
August 23rd, 2012
10:13 am
To Mountain Man Comment….new term Sonny Perdue perfected….AUSTERITY CUT. There’s only one educational pie and when more people have to eat, the pieces get smaller…simple math.
Mountain Man
August 23rd, 2012
10:42 am
Bdawg – “There’s only one educational pie and when more people have to eat, the pieces get smaller…simple math.”
Are we increasing number of students when we create a charter school or just moving them? Sound like the pie stays the same, it just gets divided up differently.
Dr. Monica Henson
August 23rd, 2012
11:19 am
Pride and Joy posted, “When traditional public schools work, leave them alone. They are the pride of a community. When traditional public schools don’t work, we need an escape hatch to save the children. Charters are that escape hatch. It’s that simple.”
What Pride and Joy said.
Pride and Joy
August 23rd, 2012
12:18 pm
Linda you claim that Drew has other forms of support not at tax payer expense but at someone’s expense. You imply that the traditoinal public schools in Drew’s area do not.
That is not true.
Coan Middle School gets support from Emory, a private institution.
Yet, Coan still fails.
RE: “Why are you against making all traditional schools as good as Drew?”
I’m not. It’s the traditional schools who are against making themselves as good as Drew. I can lead a thirsty horse to water and he will drink. I cannot force a traditional public school and administration to care about the kids. Many in APS are in it for the money. Corruption, greed, theft and power-hunger is alive and well in APS. They don’t want to change. They don’t care about the kids. They just want more money.
I don’t want to throw any kids away. Those are your words and your meanings. I’ve never said or implied that in any way. You are implying that the kids who don’t attend Drew and instead go to COAN are there because their parents aren’t motivated to send them to Drew. How do you know that? Perhaps those at COAN want to be there. I don’t know.
What I want to know is why would you want to FORCE all the kids to stay at a failing school. Why is it that you want to ensure that they don’t have a choice, a better option? Why don’t you care that some kids are getting a decent education? Why would you want to hold all the kids hostage in a miserable existence? What is your motivation? My guess is you are afraid to lose your job in the public school.
RE ” I am curious, what do you feel are the barriers to all students receiving such an education?”
The barriers are the human beings who are corrupt and greedy and incompetent. APS and Dekalb county have many inside the schools and inside the administration builidng.
REPEAT: Barriers are the adults — who are incompetent, corrupt and greedy. The employees of the school district.
Pride and Joy
August 23rd, 2012
12:32 pm
Ron, I don’t think you grasped all of my meaning. I am not an advocate of keeping a failing charter school open. If the charters can’t teach, I say close their doors.
My point is that charter school success should be compared against the traditional public schools they were meant to replace. They shouldn’t be compared to the average of all other traditional public schools in the state of GA because the kids cannot attend those other schools.
ABOUT YOU, RON.
I always read your posts, Ron. ALWAYS. Why?
My impression of your by your writing is that:
You are intelligent.
You have a real education.
You are articulate.
<>> I emphasize this last one because regardless of what is thrown at you, you always send a measured, polite response. That is definitely a quality I want my child’s teacher to have.
If you were my child’s teacher, I’d probably be immensely pleased.
However, my childs’ public school teachers are nothing like you, Ron and the principal of the school was nothing like Dr. Monica Henson and no one in the school was as educated and articulate and caring as Mary Elizabeth.
The likes of the three of you (I hold all three of you in high esteem) are a rare thing indeed and in APS, almost non-existent.
I am an advocate of traditional public schools when they work. When they don’t, we parents aren’t going to wait and allow our children to languish in a poisonous environment. We demand decent schools.
Pride and Joy
August 23rd, 2012
12:39 pm
To Ron F, a question. You wrote ” I’ll clarify- the charter schools need our support.”
Who is “our”? and what do you mean by “support?”
If you mean charters schools need the support of traditional public school teachers, I’d say no.
Charter schools are created and supported by the parents — and that’s why they work.
Parents run the school. They are freed from many of the bonds and backwards attitudes that the existing bureaucracy demands.
Charter schools don’t want traditional publci school teacher support, Ron. They want to get away from the same tired bureaucracy.
Pride and Joy
August 23rd, 2012
12:45 pm
Bdawg and Mountain Man,
I like your pie analogy and I agree with mountain man.
There are eight students and eight pieces of pie.
Each student takes his piece of pie and goes wherever he wants to eat it.
He could want to eat it at a public school or he could want to deat it at a private school or he could stay right where he is and eat his piece at the traditional public school.
Eight students. Eight pieces of pie.
(The pie equals the entire budget for the schools and the piece of pie is the money for each student.)
What bdawg incorrectly assumes, you know, because he is likely a government employee — is that if a child chooses to eat his piece of pie at a charter school then he must leave his piece of pie at the traditional public school for the other seven students to eat and then the government has to bake another pie for the student going to the charter student.
That’s not it –
Eight students. Eight pieces of pie.
Take your piece of pie and do with it what you want.
Simple math.
Just A Teacher
August 23rd, 2012
1:55 pm
@Pride and Joy . . . Your argument that charter schools work because “Parents run the school” rings hollow with me. Why can’t those same parents get involved in the public school? And, for the record, I agree with those posters who say this blog sometimes goes off topic. This amendment is not about whether about charter schools should exist. It is about whether the state should spend money it doesn’t have in order to create a commission to do a job the local school systems already do. For people who constantly bewail the fact that there are too many administrators in education to suddenly say that what our state Department of Education needs is more administrators seems like the ultimate hypocrisy to me.
3schoolkids
August 23rd, 2012
1:55 pm
@John Konop,
Since your response to me was rather confusing, I will ask you directly. What do you mean by “Mr. Winfield supports forcing women to have special needs kids?”
Pride and Joy
August 23rd, 2012
3:00 pm
Just a Teacher, you also misinterpret other posters when you complain that “For people who constantly bewail the fact that there are too many administrators in education to suddenly say that what our state Department of Education needs is more administrators seems like the ultimate hypocrisy to me.”
We don’t want MORE administrators. We want BETTER administrators. We don’t have the power nor the authority to FIRE the current administrators. All we can do is form a charter and hire a better one.
You missed the point entirely.
Just A Teacher
August 23rd, 2012
3:39 pm
Pride and Joy, this amendment would create more administrative positions. It is about creating a Charter School Commission. In other words, a group of commissioners (administrators) at the state level. Our state can’t afford to spend millions of dollars on that commission right now. As Dr. Barge points out in his dissent, we have underfunded the public schools in Georgia for many years, and the DOE claims poverty as its reason for cutting funds to local systems. If it has suddenly come up with extra money, I believe it should be spent on reinstating funding to those systems which are currently struggling financially. Otherwise, it isn’t about poverty; it is about cronyism and creating jobs for more people who have no contact with students.
Holly Jones
August 23rd, 2012
3:40 pm
Here is another way to look at the pie analogy- The money (”the pie”) is used for ALL the children at a school. If 10 kids from The Little Red Schoolhouse go to a charter school, taking their ” piece of pie” with them, the original school STILL has the same number of teachers, same utility costs, same maintenance needs, but less “pie” to pay for those. Because charters will pull from multiple schools and generally keep their numbers low (how very nice for them, wish ALL schools could limit their enrollment) the impact is negligible in reducing class sizes, number of teachers, etc… in any given school.
My kids are in good schools in our system. I recognize how fortunate we are and I WANT to see all the other schools in my system achieving like my kids’ schools are. Starving the systems of money in the name of charter schools will NOT improve all schools.- and THAT’S what we should all be demanding. Not a few special schools for a few fortunate kids, but good schools for ALL kids. And ultimately, it IS the parents and community who drive that demand. If they don’t care enough, then all the money and charter schools in the world won’t help.
Pride and Joy
August 23rd, 2012
4:15 pm
Holly Jones, I wish you’d listen to your own words “And ultimately, it IS the parents and community who drive that demand. If they don’t care enough, then all the money and charter schools in the world won’t help.”
Parents cannot demand a school change becasue parents have no power over the school. The only power they have to give their kid a decent education is to LEAVE the school and start a charter.
Time and again teachers on this blog complain they have no real power yet they expect parents to somehow have power?
We vote with out feet. We LEAVE the failing traditional public school.
Now about your fantasty pie analogy.
Charter schools should pull money away from the failing traidtoinal public school and if that means the failing school cannot run on the money that’s left, good riddance.
That’s the whole point.
Get rid of the bad and embrace the good.
You are also absolutley wrong about diminishing sizes of the classroom. When a charter schools attracts so many students that the traditional school suffers, that means the classrooms can be rearranged and teachers can be laid off — and that’s how it should work.
Which teachers do you think will be laid off?
We hope the bad ones.
The good ones will either want to stay or be employed by the charter school.
Charters are about breaking the chains of a powerful greedy bureaucracy.
We need to be able to escape from being held hostage by a failing behemoth.
Pride and Joy
August 23rd, 2012
4:19 pm
To Just a Teacher you wrote “Our state can’t afford to spend millions of dollars on that commission right now.”
Actually, our State cannot afford to continue to throw money down the drain by continuing to pay for failing schools and administrators.
Georgia has plenty of money for schools.
But….the money doesn’t go to the right place. Instead it goes to the greedy for-profit vultures in the traditional public school bureaucracy.
Clean your own house.
Get rid of the waste in the public educational system.
Don’t blame it on the charters.
Put the blame where it belongs — on yourselves.
Calvin Ruff Ruff
August 23rd, 2012
4:55 pm
I have nothing against charter schools. In my suburban school system, we have three unique charter schools. However, this charter school amendment seems to be more about WHO HAS THE POWER. Why can’t our locally elected school boards continue determining if a charter school is added or not? Why does the STATE have to have a bureaucy to govern my local tax dollars and determine what takes place in my community? I prefer LOCAL CONTROL. John Barge is correct. http://www.votesmartgeorgia.com
mountain man
August 23rd, 2012
5:31 pm
“Why does the STATE have to have a bureaucy to govern my local tax dollars”
The State won’t have anything to do with LOCAL tax dollars – only with STATE funds. All local taxes get to stay with the local schools.
“the original school STILL has the same number of teachers, ”
So if a charter school takes 100 out of 1000 students, then Little Red Schoolhouse won’t reduce the number of teachers? Now you know why public schools are in the shape they are in.
John Konop
August 23rd, 2012
5:47 pm
3School,
.. “Mr. Winfield supports forcing women to have special needs kids?”…
First my comment was about Mr. Winfield short changing special needs kids with his math
Second Mr. Winfield is pro-life
Third the reason I only referred to special needs kids is because that was the topic of whom he was short changing
Forth if it was about short changing all kids than I would of said …“Mr. Winfield supports forcing women to have kids?”…
BTW my original comment.
…Also Mr. Winfield does not include the expense of educating special needs students which is about 11 percent. Rather Ironic since Mr. Winfield supports forcing women to have special needs kids, yet wants to short change their education….
Finally can you answer my question?
Do you think Mr. Winfield is pro life or pro birth, why or why not?
Ron F.
August 23rd, 2012
6:35 pm
“Charter schools don’t want traditional publci school teacher support, Ron. They want to get away from the same tired bureaucracy.”
Thanks for the compliment. Even if I disagree with you, I know at least you consider what I say.
Now as to the quote above: considering public school teachers make up a significant voting bloc in this state, you do need at least some of our support to get the amendment passed. You recognize some (I’d say many, but I don’t think you’d take that-
) public educators do care about what’s best for kids and are willing to look for the ways traditional public and charter schools can benefit from each other. However, think about what happened to King Roy when he got on our bad side. The first republican governor in over a century was elected. I could be wrong, but I think it would help to have some of those votes. Don’t assume they’ll all vote against it anyway. You might be surprised. Also, charter schools need good teachers, and there are good ones in the public school system that would be assets to new charter schools. As the old saying goes, “don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.”
Ron F.
August 23rd, 2012
6:39 pm
“the original school STILL has the same number of teachers, ”
NOPE, they won’t. The state only pays for the number of kids enrolled, and local schools will “adjust” staff numbers to match that state allotment of teachers. Yeah, the local money is still there, but that’s usually 5% or less of salary per teacher. That is most definitely not enough to keep teachers on the payroll if the system loses students.
Pride and Joy
August 24th, 2012
9:52 am
Ron F writes ““the original school STILL has the same number of teachers, ”
NOPE, they won’t. The state only pays for the number of kids enrolled, and local schools will “adjust” staff numbers to match that state allotment of teachers. ”
Yes, of course, Ron. That’s how it should work. If you don’t have as many students, you won’t need as many teachers.
If a restaurant only sells five meals a day, the restaurant doesn’t need five cooks.
Pride and Joy
August 24th, 2012
10:00 am
Ron, you said “considering public school teachers make up a significant voting bloc in this state, you do need at least some of our support to get the amendment passed.”
It’s interesting that you describe teachers as having a “voting bloc”. Many teachers continue to say they have no power. Yet, you acknowledge they do. If teachers have a voting bloc, they why can’t they get what they want?
I am not intimidated by a teacher’s voting bloc. I will speak my mind and vote my conscience. I don’t let my professional group tell me how to vote.
And so far at least, the voting bloc as you call it isn’t working, Ron. Teachers in this State vote for Democrats. Who is in power in this State, Ron?
The Republicans of course….and Republicans are pro charter schools.
Just so you know, I always vote for the Democrats even though I want charter schools where they are needed.
I do support publci schools even though my children don’t attend them (thrugh my voluntary donations and my time — would you believe I still volunteer at the public school?) because I believe it’s the right thing to do.
You have to realize, Ron, that most APS teachers are NOT like you. They have a chip on their shoulder and an attitude to match. I’ve had a good APS teacher for my chid and I sing the praises of that teacher for everyone who will listen but my APS experience overall is discouraging at best.
Pride and Joy
August 24th, 2012
10:08 am
Calvin Ruff Ruff, you ask a good question. You said “Why can’t our locally elected school boards continue determining if a charter school is added or not? ”
Your assumptoin is that the locally elected school board wants to do what’s best for the students and parents.
Let me explain the situation we are in in APS.
The board cares not one wit about the kids nor the community. They stole money, lied and cheated and continue to do the same.
They don’t care about the kids; they just want the money and lots of it. They love the power. They love making up costly jobs so they can pay back political favors by giving highly paid jobs to their friends. Those jobs are unnecessary and costly.
APS receives a mountain of money from exorbitant property taxes, State funds and federal funds — $14,000 per year per kid.
My child’s private school does not cost as much as $14,000 a year and the student teacher ratio is — drum roll please — 1 to 10.
If you don’t undertand the problem, it is because you are not familiar with the crooked politics in Atlanta. and if you are not fmailiar with the politics in Atlanta, it means you don’t have to endure it — so say a little prayer of thanks to your Lord.
ELMom
August 24th, 2012
1:17 pm
@Anon for this 1 yes, children from the day care center & sheltering arms have priority. The fee is based on a sliding scale depending on ability to pay. Some parents pay noting and some pay full price. The make up of the early learning academy and sheltering arms is reflective of the surrounding community.
Just A Teacher
August 24th, 2012
2:41 pm
“If you don’t undertand the problem, it is because you are not familiar with the crooked politics in Atlanta. and if you are not fmailiar with the politics in Atlanta, it means you don’t have to endure it — so say a little prayer of thanks to your Lord.”
But you will have to pay your share of the millions of dollars needed for this Charter School Commission anyway whether you live in Atlanta or not. Since I don’t live in Atlanta, I don’t give a darn about how corrupt that school system is. If the people of Atlanta want to make changes in their school system and add dozens (or even hundreds) of charter schools, they can. Just don’t expect the entire state to pay for it.
Pride and Joy
August 24th, 2012
7:43 pm
Just a teacher you wrote “Just don’t expect the entire state to pay for it.”
APS already affects every school district in Georgia and every taxpayer in all fifty States.
GA gets far more money from federals tax payer dollars than what GA pays into federal tax dollars and that includes non-metro Atlanta counties.
I’m sure other States would like their tax ,money back to pay for their own schools instead of paying for all the Title 1 monies in Georgia’s schools.
If you are in a rural county, your property taxes are minimal compared to Atlanta’s, which means, your local schools are paid for by other tax payers who don’t live in your little neck of the woods.
Be careful what you wish for.
If you don’t want other people using State funds, you shouldn’t be receiving more than what you’ve paid into the State coffers and if you’re a small rural community or any rural community, you’re getting more than your fair share already. All Georgia schools are a burden to all tax payers living outside of GA.
Pride and Joy
August 24th, 2012
8:30 pm
Ron F you say “That is most definitely not enough to keep teachers on the payroll if the system loses students.”
If the system doesn;t need the teachers, they should lay off the teachers. Why in the world should we tax payers pay for teachers we don’t need?
We shouldn’t, of course, and therein lies the heart of the reason public school teachers don’t want charter schools. It’s all about the money. They just don’t want to lose their jobs. Local boards don’t want to lose their power.
Yet neight of them is thinking about what’s best for the kids.
That’s why traditional public schools are failing — no parental involvement. We are not allowed to be involved in what really matters at schools. We are pushed into the photcoy room and told to shut up.
Nah, we won’t.
We’ll keep talking and voting and removing our kids from the poisonous environment and take our tax dollars with us.
pleasebeserious
August 25th, 2012
8:50 am
Why do you remove comments that you do not agree with?
FYI
August 25th, 2012
11:55 am
@ pleasebeserious. Are you Pride and Joy? Because Pride and Joy dominates all of Maureen’s blogs by posting the same opinion over and over and over again….Seeming to “answer” other bloggers but just going on and on.
Pride and Joy
August 25th, 2012
3:53 pm
FYI, sorry to disappoint you, but Pleasebeserious and I are not the same. Maureen keeps my IP addresses on her list and she will tell you all day long all about what she thinks of me.
So sorry you are intimidated that more than one poster disagrees with you and the status quo but that’s life.
FYI
August 25th, 2012
9:22 pm
Pride and Joy. You’re like kudzu.
Pride and Joy
August 27th, 2012
12:32 pm
FYI.
“You’re like kudzu”
That’s a great descripttion and a funny one. You have a good sense of humor. Thanks for the laugh.
P and J
Ron F.
August 27th, 2012
3:20 pm
“We’ll keep talking and voting and removing our kids from the poisonous environment and take our tax dollars with us.”
Toodle-loo to you then! The only poison is that which we parents plant in our kids. Easy, baseless rhetoric as usual I see. My comment was to point out that the system couldn’t keep those teachers even if it wanted to, not to suggest any system would. Please read my posts and stop cherry picking from them….please.
Ron F.
August 27th, 2012
3:26 pm
“I am not intimidated by a teacher’s voting bloc. I will speak my mind and vote my conscience. I don’t let my professional group tell me how to vote.
And so far at least, the voting bloc as you call it isn’t working, Ron. Teachers in this State vote for Democrats. Who is in power in this State, Ron?
The Republicans of course….and Republicans are pro charter schools”
Here’s what you haven’t thought about in your haste, Pride. Teachers changed the power structure in this state to the Republican party and can change it back. WE helped vote the current idiots into power (I am NOT proud of that fact). Generally, we vote conservatively, especially in the last decade (King Roy got thrown out because enough of us voted against him). The problem is we don’t have a single voice telling us what to do and how to vote. Just be aware that even if half of the teachers give their support, that’s 50,000+ votes…might help.
CharterStarter, Too
September 1st, 2012
12:06 am
@ Ron F. –
“The problem is we don’t have a single voice telling us what to do and how to vote.”
Vote YES in November.