State board charter committee: No fireworks but a few sparks today
I am on deadline for a Sunday piece but dashed downtown to the state Department of Education this morning for the State Board Charter Committee meeting after being told to expect “fireworks” over John Barge’s surprising public statement last week in opposition to the November charter school amendment. The committee is a subcommittee of the state Board of Education.
It wasn’t quite fireworks, but there were a few sparks The sparsely attended meeting had representatives from two charter schools, Heritage Prep Academy and Ivy Prep, who spoke in favor of their schools.
The charter school reps were there because of Barge’s statement last week: “Until all of our public school students are in school for a full 180-day school year, until essential services like student transportation and student support can return to effective levels, and until teachers regain jobs with full pay for a full school year, we should not redirect one more dollar away from Georgia’s local school districts – much less an additional $430 million in state funds, which is what it would cost to add seven new state charter schools per year over the next five years (the annual average of the Charter Commission that would be revived if the amendment passes).”
While waiting for the 10 a.m. meeting to start, I talked to Nina Gilbert, Ivy Prep founder, about her concerns over Barge’s position. The state is Ivy Prep’s authorizer, Gilbert noted, so it is important that Barge be a strong supporter of the charter school movement and concept.
The meeting began 40 minutes late with an announcement from the chair that the committee would speak to the Barge statement even though it was not on the agenda. Chair Brian Burdette also said that the public could speak for two minutes on the issue, too.
Committee members Daniel Israel and Grant Lewis spoke first. Committee member Kenneth Mason had jury duty. They split on the issue:
Israel: I was disappointed with the decision that Barge took. I want to see the amendment pass… for everyone to line up behind it for a couple of reasons. We need to offer alternatives for children in Georgia. I think that a lot of support and good will has been generated behind this initiative and this might poison the well a little bit. I am hoping we can come together and advocate and see this pass in November.
Lewis: I think we have already have an option for charter schools. The state school board can approve them and I think the terrible economics come to play a great deal in our state. We can save some money by not having a commission that duplicates services. I am very much behind charter schools. In the future, as we have more money available, we can revisit it. At present time, I am not going to support it.
Then, the chair spoke:
Burdette: I disagree with Superintendent Barge’s comment vigorously and I was very surprised and shocked to hear it. But I am going to reserve my comments to this afternoon in the committee of the whole. I wanted the charter committee to understand and know where I stand — I stand in full support.
In the brief public portion, four employees of charter schools spoke in favor of their schools. A parent spoke, although it was unclear that he understood the intent of the amendment as he told us afterward that he was not sure of the particulars but wanted more money to come to his school. (The amendment will not redirect more money to existing charter schools.)
The former executive director of the state Charter Schools Commission spoke about his personal frustrations with Barge’s position. I was surprised by Mark Peevy’s criticisms as Peevy would have to work with DOE again if the amendment passes and the commission is revived under his leadership. (I told him that afterward, and Peevy said he felt he had to be candid. I told him that journalists appreciate candor, but I still wondered about his job prospects.)
Peevy said the school chief’s comments disparaged the work of his commission, as well as the supervisory role of the state board in sanctioning the schools endorsed by the commission. Peevy said he was offended by a DOE-produced fact sheet on charter schools in which Barge noted that only one of the schools approved by the commission was high quality in 2011, based on performance scores.
The fact sheet stated:
Charter schools in Georgia do not consistently outperform traditional public schools. In 2010-11, Georgia’s traditional public schools outperformed its charter schools, with 73% making AYP compare to 70% of charter schools.
Only one of the 13 schools serving former Commission school students meets the definition of a high-quality charter school – and that school is now a locally-approved charter school (The Museum School of Avondale Estates).
“To come back now and say those schools were not high quality puts the work of this committee and the board as a whole in a disturbing light,” said Peevy.
For clarity: State board of ed members are appointed and reflect the political leanings of the governor who put them in the seats. Last year, Gov. Nathan Deal purged the state board, replacing longtime members with his own appointees, most of whom support charter schools. So, it should be no surprise that board members disagree with Barge on the amendment question.
Barge, however, was elected statewide without much help from the GOP establishment. The Republican leadership ignored his campaign because of his opposition to Race to the Top, a personal project of then Gov. Perdue. As a result, Barge took office with fewer political IOUs, which is why he has more freedom to take stands that depart from the GOP script in the state.
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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132 comments Add your comment
Dr. Monica Henson
August 23rd, 2012
11:19 am
Pride and Joy posted, “When traditional public schools work, leave them alone. They are the pride of a community. When traditional public schools don’t work, we need an escape hatch to save the children. Charters are that escape hatch. It’s that simple.”
What Pride and Joy said.
Pride and Joy
August 23rd, 2012
12:18 pm
Linda you claim that Drew has other forms of support not at tax payer expense but at someone’s expense. You imply that the traditoinal public schools in Drew’s area do not.
That is not true.
Coan Middle School gets support from Emory, a private institution.
Yet, Coan still fails.
RE: “Why are you against making all traditional schools as good as Drew?”
I’m not. It’s the traditional schools who are against making themselves as good as Drew. I can lead a thirsty horse to water and he will drink. I cannot force a traditional public school and administration to care about the kids. Many in APS are in it for the money. Corruption, greed, theft and power-hunger is alive and well in APS. They don’t want to change. They don’t care about the kids. They just want more money.
I don’t want to throw any kids away. Those are your words and your meanings. I’ve never said or implied that in any way. You are implying that the kids who don’t attend Drew and instead go to COAN are there because their parents aren’t motivated to send them to Drew. How do you know that? Perhaps those at COAN want to be there. I don’t know.
What I want to know is why would you want to FORCE all the kids to stay at a failing school. Why is it that you want to ensure that they don’t have a choice, a better option? Why don’t you care that some kids are getting a decent education? Why would you want to hold all the kids hostage in a miserable existence? What is your motivation? My guess is you are afraid to lose your job in the public school.
RE ” I am curious, what do you feel are the barriers to all students receiving such an education?”
The barriers are the human beings who are corrupt and greedy and incompetent. APS and Dekalb county have many inside the schools and inside the administration builidng.
REPEAT: Barriers are the adults — who are incompetent, corrupt and greedy. The employees of the school district.
Pride and Joy
August 23rd, 2012
12:32 pm
Ron, I don’t think you grasped all of my meaning. I am not an advocate of keeping a failing charter school open. If the charters can’t teach, I say close their doors.
My point is that charter school success should be compared against the traditional public schools they were meant to replace. They shouldn’t be compared to the average of all other traditional public schools in the state of GA because the kids cannot attend those other schools.
ABOUT YOU, RON.
I always read your posts, Ron. ALWAYS. Why?
My impression of your by your writing is that:
You are intelligent.
You have a real education.
You are articulate.
<>> I emphasize this last one because regardless of what is thrown at you, you always send a measured, polite response. That is definitely a quality I want my child’s teacher to have.
If you were my child’s teacher, I’d probably be immensely pleased.
However, my childs’ public school teachers are nothing like you, Ron and the principal of the school was nothing like Dr. Monica Henson and no one in the school was as educated and articulate and caring as Mary Elizabeth.
The likes of the three of you (I hold all three of you in high esteem) are a rare thing indeed and in APS, almost non-existent.
I am an advocate of traditional public schools when they work. When they don’t, we parents aren’t going to wait and allow our children to languish in a poisonous environment. We demand decent schools.
Pride and Joy
August 23rd, 2012
12:39 pm
To Ron F, a question. You wrote ” I’ll clarify- the charter schools need our support.”
Who is “our”? and what do you mean by “support?”
If you mean charters schools need the support of traditional public school teachers, I’d say no.
Charter schools are created and supported by the parents — and that’s why they work.
Parents run the school. They are freed from many of the bonds and backwards attitudes that the existing bureaucracy demands.
Charter schools don’t want traditional publci school teacher support, Ron. They want to get away from the same tired bureaucracy.
Pride and Joy
August 23rd, 2012
12:45 pm
Bdawg and Mountain Man,
I like your pie analogy and I agree with mountain man.
There are eight students and eight pieces of pie.
Each student takes his piece of pie and goes wherever he wants to eat it.
He could want to eat it at a public school or he could want to deat it at a private school or he could stay right where he is and eat his piece at the traditional public school.
Eight students. Eight pieces of pie.
(The pie equals the entire budget for the schools and the piece of pie is the money for each student.)
What bdawg incorrectly assumes, you know, because he is likely a government employee — is that if a child chooses to eat his piece of pie at a charter school then he must leave his piece of pie at the traditional public school for the other seven students to eat and then the government has to bake another pie for the student going to the charter student.
That’s not it –
Eight students. Eight pieces of pie.
Take your piece of pie and do with it what you want.
Simple math.
Just A Teacher
August 23rd, 2012
1:55 pm
@Pride and Joy . . . Your argument that charter schools work because “Parents run the school” rings hollow with me. Why can’t those same parents get involved in the public school? And, for the record, I agree with those posters who say this blog sometimes goes off topic. This amendment is not about whether about charter schools should exist. It is about whether the state should spend money it doesn’t have in order to create a commission to do a job the local school systems already do. For people who constantly bewail the fact that there are too many administrators in education to suddenly say that what our state Department of Education needs is more administrators seems like the ultimate hypocrisy to me.
3schoolkids
August 23rd, 2012
1:55 pm
@John Konop,
Since your response to me was rather confusing, I will ask you directly. What do you mean by “Mr. Winfield supports forcing women to have special needs kids?”
Pride and Joy
August 23rd, 2012
3:00 pm
Just a Teacher, you also misinterpret other posters when you complain that “For people who constantly bewail the fact that there are too many administrators in education to suddenly say that what our state Department of Education needs is more administrators seems like the ultimate hypocrisy to me.”
We don’t want MORE administrators. We want BETTER administrators. We don’t have the power nor the authority to FIRE the current administrators. All we can do is form a charter and hire a better one.
You missed the point entirely.
Just A Teacher
August 23rd, 2012
3:39 pm
Pride and Joy, this amendment would create more administrative positions. It is about creating a Charter School Commission. In other words, a group of commissioners (administrators) at the state level. Our state can’t afford to spend millions of dollars on that commission right now. As Dr. Barge points out in his dissent, we have underfunded the public schools in Georgia for many years, and the DOE claims poverty as its reason for cutting funds to local systems. If it has suddenly come up with extra money, I believe it should be spent on reinstating funding to those systems which are currently struggling financially. Otherwise, it isn’t about poverty; it is about cronyism and creating jobs for more people who have no contact with students.
Holly Jones
August 23rd, 2012
3:40 pm
Here is another way to look at the pie analogy- The money (”the pie”) is used for ALL the children at a school. If 10 kids from The Little Red Schoolhouse go to a charter school, taking their ” piece of pie” with them, the original school STILL has the same number of teachers, same utility costs, same maintenance needs, but less “pie” to pay for those. Because charters will pull from multiple schools and generally keep their numbers low (how very nice for them, wish ALL schools could limit their enrollment) the impact is negligible in reducing class sizes, number of teachers, etc… in any given school.
My kids are in good schools in our system. I recognize how fortunate we are and I WANT to see all the other schools in my system achieving like my kids’ schools are. Starving the systems of money in the name of charter schools will NOT improve all schools.- and THAT’S what we should all be demanding. Not a few special schools for a few fortunate kids, but good schools for ALL kids. And ultimately, it IS the parents and community who drive that demand. If they don’t care enough, then all the money and charter schools in the world won’t help.
Pride and Joy
August 23rd, 2012
4:15 pm
Holly Jones, I wish you’d listen to your own words “And ultimately, it IS the parents and community who drive that demand. If they don’t care enough, then all the money and charter schools in the world won’t help.”
Parents cannot demand a school change becasue parents have no power over the school. The only power they have to give their kid a decent education is to LEAVE the school and start a charter.
Time and again teachers on this blog complain they have no real power yet they expect parents to somehow have power?
We vote with out feet. We LEAVE the failing traditional public school.
Now about your fantasty pie analogy.
Charter schools should pull money away from the failing traidtoinal public school and if that means the failing school cannot run on the money that’s left, good riddance.
That’s the whole point.
Get rid of the bad and embrace the good.
You are also absolutley wrong about diminishing sizes of the classroom. When a charter schools attracts so many students that the traditional school suffers, that means the classrooms can be rearranged and teachers can be laid off — and that’s how it should work.
Which teachers do you think will be laid off?
We hope the bad ones.
The good ones will either want to stay or be employed by the charter school.
Charters are about breaking the chains of a powerful greedy bureaucracy.
We need to be able to escape from being held hostage by a failing behemoth.
Pride and Joy
August 23rd, 2012
4:19 pm
To Just a Teacher you wrote “Our state can’t afford to spend millions of dollars on that commission right now.”
Actually, our State cannot afford to continue to throw money down the drain by continuing to pay for failing schools and administrators.
Georgia has plenty of money for schools.
But….the money doesn’t go to the right place. Instead it goes to the greedy for-profit vultures in the traditional public school bureaucracy.
Clean your own house.
Get rid of the waste in the public educational system.
Don’t blame it on the charters.
Put the blame where it belongs — on yourselves.
Calvin Ruff Ruff
August 23rd, 2012
4:55 pm
I have nothing against charter schools. In my suburban school system, we have three unique charter schools. However, this charter school amendment seems to be more about WHO HAS THE POWER. Why can’t our locally elected school boards continue determining if a charter school is added or not? Why does the STATE have to have a bureaucy to govern my local tax dollars and determine what takes place in my community? I prefer LOCAL CONTROL. John Barge is correct. http://www.votesmartgeorgia.com
mountain man
August 23rd, 2012
5:31 pm
“Why does the STATE have to have a bureaucy to govern my local tax dollars”
The State won’t have anything to do with LOCAL tax dollars – only with STATE funds. All local taxes get to stay with the local schools.
“the original school STILL has the same number of teachers, ”
So if a charter school takes 100 out of 1000 students, then Little Red Schoolhouse won’t reduce the number of teachers? Now you know why public schools are in the shape they are in.
John Konop
August 23rd, 2012
5:47 pm
3School,
.. “Mr. Winfield supports forcing women to have special needs kids?”…
First my comment was about Mr. Winfield short changing special needs kids with his math
Second Mr. Winfield is pro-life
Third the reason I only referred to special needs kids is because that was the topic of whom he was short changing
Forth if it was about short changing all kids than I would of said …“Mr. Winfield supports forcing women to have kids?”…
BTW my original comment.
…Also Mr. Winfield does not include the expense of educating special needs students which is about 11 percent. Rather Ironic since Mr. Winfield supports forcing women to have special needs kids, yet wants to short change their education….
Finally can you answer my question?
Do you think Mr. Winfield is pro life or pro birth, why or why not?
Ron F.
August 23rd, 2012
6:35 pm
“Charter schools don’t want traditional publci school teacher support, Ron. They want to get away from the same tired bureaucracy.”
Thanks for the compliment. Even if I disagree with you, I know at least you consider what I say.
Now as to the quote above: considering public school teachers make up a significant voting bloc in this state, you do need at least some of our support to get the amendment passed. You recognize some (I’d say many, but I don’t think you’d take that-
) public educators do care about what’s best for kids and are willing to look for the ways traditional public and charter schools can benefit from each other. However, think about what happened to King Roy when he got on our bad side. The first republican governor in over a century was elected. I could be wrong, but I think it would help to have some of those votes. Don’t assume they’ll all vote against it anyway. You might be surprised. Also, charter schools need good teachers, and there are good ones in the public school system that would be assets to new charter schools. As the old saying goes, “don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.”
Ron F.
August 23rd, 2012
6:39 pm
“the original school STILL has the same number of teachers, ”
NOPE, they won’t. The state only pays for the number of kids enrolled, and local schools will “adjust” staff numbers to match that state allotment of teachers. Yeah, the local money is still there, but that’s usually 5% or less of salary per teacher. That is most definitely not enough to keep teachers on the payroll if the system loses students.
Pride and Joy
August 24th, 2012
9:52 am
Ron F writes ““the original school STILL has the same number of teachers, ”
NOPE, they won’t. The state only pays for the number of kids enrolled, and local schools will “adjust” staff numbers to match that state allotment of teachers. ”
Yes, of course, Ron. That’s how it should work. If you don’t have as many students, you won’t need as many teachers.
If a restaurant only sells five meals a day, the restaurant doesn’t need five cooks.
Pride and Joy
August 24th, 2012
10:00 am
Ron, you said “considering public school teachers make up a significant voting bloc in this state, you do need at least some of our support to get the amendment passed.”
It’s interesting that you describe teachers as having a “voting bloc”. Many teachers continue to say they have no power. Yet, you acknowledge they do. If teachers have a voting bloc, they why can’t they get what they want?
I am not intimidated by a teacher’s voting bloc. I will speak my mind and vote my conscience. I don’t let my professional group tell me how to vote.
And so far at least, the voting bloc as you call it isn’t working, Ron. Teachers in this State vote for Democrats. Who is in power in this State, Ron?
The Republicans of course….and Republicans are pro charter schools.
Just so you know, I always vote for the Democrats even though I want charter schools where they are needed.
I do support publci schools even though my children don’t attend them (thrugh my voluntary donations and my time — would you believe I still volunteer at the public school?) because I believe it’s the right thing to do.
You have to realize, Ron, that most APS teachers are NOT like you. They have a chip on their shoulder and an attitude to match. I’ve had a good APS teacher for my chid and I sing the praises of that teacher for everyone who will listen but my APS experience overall is discouraging at best.
Pride and Joy
August 24th, 2012
10:08 am
Calvin Ruff Ruff, you ask a good question. You said “Why can’t our locally elected school boards continue determining if a charter school is added or not? ”
Your assumptoin is that the locally elected school board wants to do what’s best for the students and parents.
Let me explain the situation we are in in APS.
The board cares not one wit about the kids nor the community. They stole money, lied and cheated and continue to do the same.
They don’t care about the kids; they just want the money and lots of it. They love the power. They love making up costly jobs so they can pay back political favors by giving highly paid jobs to their friends. Those jobs are unnecessary and costly.
APS receives a mountain of money from exorbitant property taxes, State funds and federal funds — $14,000 per year per kid.
My child’s private school does not cost as much as $14,000 a year and the student teacher ratio is — drum roll please — 1 to 10.
If you don’t undertand the problem, it is because you are not familiar with the crooked politics in Atlanta. and if you are not fmailiar with the politics in Atlanta, it means you don’t have to endure it — so say a little prayer of thanks to your Lord.
ELMom
August 24th, 2012
1:17 pm
@Anon for this 1 yes, children from the day care center & sheltering arms have priority. The fee is based on a sliding scale depending on ability to pay. Some parents pay noting and some pay full price. The make up of the early learning academy and sheltering arms is reflective of the surrounding community.
Just A Teacher
August 24th, 2012
2:41 pm
“If you don’t undertand the problem, it is because you are not familiar with the crooked politics in Atlanta. and if you are not fmailiar with the politics in Atlanta, it means you don’t have to endure it — so say a little prayer of thanks to your Lord.”
But you will have to pay your share of the millions of dollars needed for this Charter School Commission anyway whether you live in Atlanta or not. Since I don’t live in Atlanta, I don’t give a darn about how corrupt that school system is. If the people of Atlanta want to make changes in their school system and add dozens (or even hundreds) of charter schools, they can. Just don’t expect the entire state to pay for it.
Pride and Joy
August 24th, 2012
7:43 pm
Just a teacher you wrote “Just don’t expect the entire state to pay for it.”
APS already affects every school district in Georgia and every taxpayer in all fifty States.
GA gets far more money from federals tax payer dollars than what GA pays into federal tax dollars and that includes non-metro Atlanta counties.
I’m sure other States would like their tax ,money back to pay for their own schools instead of paying for all the Title 1 monies in Georgia’s schools.
If you are in a rural county, your property taxes are minimal compared to Atlanta’s, which means, your local schools are paid for by other tax payers who don’t live in your little neck of the woods.
Be careful what you wish for.
If you don’t want other people using State funds, you shouldn’t be receiving more than what you’ve paid into the State coffers and if you’re a small rural community or any rural community, you’re getting more than your fair share already. All Georgia schools are a burden to all tax payers living outside of GA.
Pride and Joy
August 24th, 2012
8:30 pm
Ron F you say “That is most definitely not enough to keep teachers on the payroll if the system loses students.”
If the system doesn;t need the teachers, they should lay off the teachers. Why in the world should we tax payers pay for teachers we don’t need?
We shouldn’t, of course, and therein lies the heart of the reason public school teachers don’t want charter schools. It’s all about the money. They just don’t want to lose their jobs. Local boards don’t want to lose their power.
Yet neight of them is thinking about what’s best for the kids.
That’s why traditional public schools are failing — no parental involvement. We are not allowed to be involved in what really matters at schools. We are pushed into the photcoy room and told to shut up.
Nah, we won’t.
We’ll keep talking and voting and removing our kids from the poisonous environment and take our tax dollars with us.
pleasebeserious
August 25th, 2012
8:50 am
Why do you remove comments that you do not agree with?
FYI
August 25th, 2012
11:55 am
@ pleasebeserious. Are you Pride and Joy? Because Pride and Joy dominates all of Maureen’s blogs by posting the same opinion over and over and over again….Seeming to “answer” other bloggers but just going on and on.
Pride and Joy
August 25th, 2012
3:53 pm
FYI, sorry to disappoint you, but Pleasebeserious and I are not the same. Maureen keeps my IP addresses on her list and she will tell you all day long all about what she thinks of me.
So sorry you are intimidated that more than one poster disagrees with you and the status quo but that’s life.
FYI
August 25th, 2012
9:22 pm
Pride and Joy. You’re like kudzu.
Pride and Joy
August 27th, 2012
12:32 pm
FYI.
“You’re like kudzu”
That’s a great descripttion and a funny one. You have a good sense of humor. Thanks for the laugh.
P and J
Ron F.
August 27th, 2012
3:20 pm
“We’ll keep talking and voting and removing our kids from the poisonous environment and take our tax dollars with us.”
Toodle-loo to you then! The only poison is that which we parents plant in our kids. Easy, baseless rhetoric as usual I see. My comment was to point out that the system couldn’t keep those teachers even if it wanted to, not to suggest any system would. Please read my posts and stop cherry picking from them….please.
Ron F.
August 27th, 2012
3:26 pm
“I am not intimidated by a teacher’s voting bloc. I will speak my mind and vote my conscience. I don’t let my professional group tell me how to vote.
And so far at least, the voting bloc as you call it isn’t working, Ron. Teachers in this State vote for Democrats. Who is in power in this State, Ron?
The Republicans of course….and Republicans are pro charter schools”
Here’s what you haven’t thought about in your haste, Pride. Teachers changed the power structure in this state to the Republican party and can change it back. WE helped vote the current idiots into power (I am NOT proud of that fact). Generally, we vote conservatively, especially in the last decade (King Roy got thrown out because enough of us voted against him). The problem is we don’t have a single voice telling us what to do and how to vote. Just be aware that even if half of the teachers give their support, that’s 50,000+ votes…might help.
CharterStarter, Too
September 1st, 2012
12:06 am
@ Ron F. –
“The problem is we don’t have a single voice telling us what to do and how to vote.”
Vote YES in November.