AJC investigation: Dropouts in Georgia far higher than reported. Can we fix it?
In a front page Sunday investigation, the AJC shares its discovery – learned through open records requests — that 30,751 students in the Class of 2011 left high school without a diploma, nearly double the 15,590 initially reported.
The jarring difference owes to new federal requirements for counting dropouts, requirements that now put the onus on systems to track students who disappear.
I wonder whether schools have the staff to do what one principal described as intense detective work to hunt missing students.
“It’s going to be something where we all turn into Sherlock Holmes,” and we’re tracking every lead we can. It basically is a guilty-until-proven-innocent format,” Gabe Crerie, principal at Henry County’s Eagle’s Landing High School, said. He and his school’s grad coaches spent seven hours one day this summer, trying to track down 62 suspected dropouts. They found 33 at other schools, Crerie said.
The AJC story by reporters Nancy Badertscher and Kelly Guckian notes that Cherokee County officials considered the old formula suspect 10 years ago, when the state first adopted it. Superintendent Frank Petruzielo issued an edict that school officials document students said to be transferring from the district and to review their dropout data twice a year. That vigilance paid off: Among metro districts, Cherokee had one of the smaller increases in dropouts — 90 — and its grad rate moved 7.3 percentage points, from 82.1 percent to 74.8 percent.
I have to point out the obvious here: Georgia has one of the nation’s lowest graduation rates in part because it has one of the nation’s highest child poverty rates. After decades of writing about schools, I am convinced that we can’t deal with one without addressing the other.
Poor children are not a lost cause, but keeping them in school and on grade level requires an unwavering commitment of time, energy and money, and I sometimes wonder whether we have the will in Georgia to make such a commitment.
Please note that Georgia has never done well with low-income students. There is no golden era of education over which to wax nostalgic. The state’s failure to graduate large numbers of high school students was not a problem a generation ago when mill and factory jobs awaited them. In fact, the promise of cheap, ready labor — along with cheap, ready land — was something that Georgia presented as a selling point to new industries.
Now, little awaits a high school dropout. Industry wants educated workers who are able to adapt and learn new skills quickly.
According to the main AJC story in the Sunday package:
The discrepancy came to light because this year the federal government made all states use a new, more rigorous method to calculate graduation rates. Under the new formula, the state’s graduation rate plunged from 80.9 percent to 67.4 percent, one of the nation’s lowest.
Part of the reason for the decline is that the new formula defines a graduate as someone who earns a diploma in four years, though thousands of students take five years or longer. But the AJC’s analysis shows — for the first time — how much of the discrepancy stemmed from a failure to accurately measure how many students drop out.
For years, inflated graduation rates helped state and local districts meet political pressures and claim success. But undercounting the number of dropouts did nothing for the kids who quit school unnoticed.
“They spent more time trying to fix the numbers, than they did trying to fix the problem,” said Cathy Henson, an advocate for education reform and former state Board of Education chair. “My frustration is that if you’re giving people phony data, then they don’t understand the magnitude, the urgency of the problem.”
The cost to the taxpayer can be high. Dropouts are more likely to spend time in prison and need public assistance at some time in their lives.
In Clayton County, parents were stunned when told local dropout numbers quadrupled under the new formula. “I’m just blown away by those figures,” said Melody Totten, parent of a Clayton County 10th grader and past president of the local PTA council. “The school board should hold the superintendent accountable, and the superintendent, in turn, should hold the schools, principals accountable.”
Education experts have long suspected that the state’s soaring graduation rate was artificially high, rooted in faulty data.
Under the state’s old formula, students who disappeared from a school’s rolls were often written off as transfers without evidence that they had landed in another school. In general, students were only counted as dropouts if they formally declared that they were quitting school, something researchers say they seldom do.
The new method takes the opposite tack, counting a student as a dropout unless the district can show that he or she enrolled elsewhere.
Former State School Superintendent Kathy Cox said some districts, under pressure to graduate more high schoolers, might have looked the other way when students left. “Some of this is catching people who were probably deliberately messing with the system, and some of this is catching what probably is just bad record-keeping,” Cox said.
Current schools chief John Barge is more circumspect. “I can’t say that a system was or wasn’t fudging the numbers,” Barge said in a recent interview. “Do I think there is large-scale people wanting to manipulate the system? I really don’t think so.”
Georgia officials announced in April that the state’s grad rate was 13.5 percent points lower under the new formula. They blamed the fall in part on the undercounting of dropouts but said they had no specifics.
In metro Atlanta, Clayton County Public Schools saw a huge swing, going from 392 dropouts to 1,584 and from an 80.2 percent to a 51.5 percent grad rate, according to the state’s data. Clayton officials had thought they were making headway. Their 2010 grad rate was 81.6 percent, better than the state’s 80.8 percent.
Clayton officials believe that at least some of the newly-reported dropouts could have been legitimate transfers, district spokesman Doug Hendrix said. But they also are taking a hard look at strategies to help students graduate. Those include counselors serving as mentors to every child and parent coordinators out in the community, Hendrix said. “It’s obvious to us there is some work to be done,” he said.
As early as 2009, the AJC reported that some districts were suspected of over-reporting transfers and under-reporting dropouts — two measures that boost graduation rates. In 2010 and 2011, the newspaper reported that thousands of Atlanta Public Schools high school students were taken off the rolls without documentation of where they went, at the same time the district was boasting huge jumps in its grad rate.
The new data shows APS’s dropouts increased from 798 6 to 1,544 and its grad rate went from 69.5 percent to 52 percent with the switch to the new formula. APS spokesman Keith Bromery said more accurate numbers put “us in a better position to know what the reality of the situation is for the district.” The district is creating an early-warning system that will alert teachers and administrations to signs that a student could be on the path to dropping out, Bromery said.
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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191 comments Add your comment
Todd
August 19th, 2012
9:41 am
Why not just pay the schools based on the numbers that graduate ?
living in an outdated ed system
August 19th, 2012
9:46 am
A symptom of an increasingly failing public education system. Lets add a few stats to this equation:
1. A high school student in our country drops out EVERY 26 seconds.
2. Each dropout costs the nation about $260,000 in lost earnings, taxes and productivity
over a lifetime
3. Each dropout class costs the nation $325 billion in lost contributions, which is equal to
the combined GDP of Kansas, Utah, Nebraska, and Alaska every year
We spend more on incarceration than we do on education. Who cares whether a few figures are “fudged?” The problem is crystal clear. Instead of fighting the winds of education reform, it is time we started embracing them!
DAWG POUND
August 19th, 2012
9:52 am
When are we going to stop using poverty as an excuse for dropouts? It isn’t poverty that is the culprit here… Rather, it is the culture among many people who happen to be poor!!!
At the end of the Civil War, 17% of African Americans with young children in the household were without a father. By World War II the percentage had increased to 19%. By the Civil Rights era, it climed to 22%. Today, the number of African American children without a father in the house now satnds at a WHOPPING 71.5%!!!
That is the MAJORITY of the problem here folks!!!
The answer is WHY???
One reason is that African American women receive more compensation vis-a-vi welfare if a father isn’t present in the home!
What sort of system would reward a father not being present in the home???
A system that is horribly broken and further detrimental to young people getting an education.
sloboffthestreet
August 19th, 2012
9:54 am
“It’s going to be something where we all turn into Sherlock Holmes,” and we’re tracking every lead we can. It basically is a guilty-until-proven-innocent format,” Gabe Crerie, principal at Henry County’s Eagle’s Landing High School, said. He and his school’s grad coaches spent seven hours one day this summer, trying to track down 62 suspected dropouts. They found 33 at other schools, Crerie said.
I wonder what they did for the other seven hours they worked this summer? The poor dears appear to be overworked and underpaid once again!
Lynne Reese
August 19th, 2012
9:59 am
Maureen, You need to come visit Floyd County Education Center and Performance Learning Center where we offer out-of-the-ordinary programs for our students to enable them to succeed and graduate with a SACS-accredited diploma! We even have grants that pay for online courses and tutors….and a program and staff that put the student first as well as customize their education to make it a positive experience.
inthetrenches
August 19th, 2012
10:07 am
Currently, students are required to have 23 credits to graduate. On the semester system, if a student doesn’t fail any classes, they will have 24 credits at graduation. With the reporting system described in the article, low-income students who fail one class are MUCH more likely to be considered “dropouts”, because they are less likely to be able to afford summer school to get back on track.
I would love to see some credit given to schools who invest the extra time to get a student to graduation, even if it takes 4 1/2 or 5 years.
Pride and Joy
August 19th, 2012
10:08 am
sloboffthestreet is dead on accurate.
It took ONLY seven hours to find 62 students. That’s ONLY SEVEN minutes per kid.
Actually LESS than seven minutes per kid, which means, they made a phone call.
Hardly being a Sherlock Holmes wouldn’t you agree?
But that shows where Georgia’s education head is at.
GA’s kids aren’t worth a seven minute phone call. I guarantee you if the kid could play football, these poor little overworked souls would spend SEVEN DAYS recruiting a football playing illiterate.
There are priorities and then there are Georgia’s priorities.
Tired of it
August 19th, 2012
10:08 am
It is time to put an end to this madness. Having a student graduate is the responsibility of the parents and the student! NO ONE ELSE. “Early warning system” to let everyone know a student is in danger of dropping out? We call that a report card. Income is not a barrier to education in Georgia. Schools manage to graduate the majority of their students, regardless of income. Therefore, they are doing something right and DO NOT NEED TO MAKE MASSIVE CHANGES OR HIRE NEW SPECIALISTS. We shouldn’t be hunting for students; they should be looking for us! If we as a society can’t convince students (and parents) that education is essential for success in the first 5-8 years of school, they will just have to learn from the school of hard knocks. All students watch TV, read on some level, and observe their peers. The information is out there. Students need to “buy in” because teachers can’t sell it any harder. Teachers lead all “horses” to water, but some of them just refuse to drink. Eventually, they will want to. If anything, we need to have a better program in place for young adult learners who have decided that education is important. Please don’t put any more responsibility on the backs of educators. It is time for all students to take responsibility for their own success.
GCAE President
August 19th, 2012
10:14 am
Maureen your comment “I have to point out the obvious here: Georgia has one of the nation’s lowest graduation rates in part because it has one of the nation’s highest child poverty rates. After decades of writing about schools, I am convinced that we can’t deal with one without addressing the other.
Poor children are not a lost cause, but keeping them in school and on grade level requires an unwavering commitment of time, energy and money, and I sometimes wonder whether we have the will in Georgia to make such a commitment.”
Thank you for noticing this very profound reality. Obviously, our present Governor and General Assembly are more interested in lining the pockets of corporations than the current economic situations of families across this state. Teachers are committed and are putting in the time and energy but when the education budget keeps being slashed, there is nothing else we can do.
With students dropping out, the formulas of the past and present are faulty. The premise is that all students should graduate in 4 years. With transiency, hunger, abandonment, homelessness and so many other situations that face many of our students, 4 years is not enough. And even if they take an additional summer, 6 or 12 more months, why should that punish the system or the student.
Until our society finds the worth in all persons, this issue will persist. Statistics is a funny math. It depends on how you want to use the results and the original thesis you started with. And since there are so many variables in educating children, I can only wonder if they use these statistics and formulas for their issues and not for helping students, teachers and public education.
South GA Teacher
August 19th, 2012
10:18 am
Graduation Coaches are the worst case of money spent on salaries in Georgia. All they have to do is free up some Guidance Counselors to actually do their real jobs and we would not need the graduation coaches. Counselors are nothing more than glorified secretaries in the high schools and rarely get to interact with the students. They use to come in an do guidance lessons and help teachers identify at risk kids for failure, now we just have to hope and pray the students do not become welfare rats. We have a huge bloated education bureaucracy in Georgia K-12. We need to gut the whole thing and start over and let the teachers teach. But no, they stupid politicians want to add more layers of public education with Charters thinking that is going to be the end-all-be-all to our issues. All that will do is create defacto segregation in our school system. And the beat goes on.
Lee
August 19th, 2012
10:19 am
Once a student withdraws from a school, I dont see where it is the schools responsibility to track them down.
Dropping out of school and going on public assistance is just as much a reflection of our failed welfare policies as anything. Drop out of school, live in government housing, draw a welfare check, sell a little dope, go out and steal from those who are working sounds like a viable life style for some people. How can we improve that situation? Oh yeah, allow tens of millions of more low IQ, low skilled, third world invaders to waltz across our Southern border.
HappyTru
August 19th, 2012
10:29 am
Maybe we can start by having adequate attendance rules. How can a student remain on grade level when they are absent for most of the semester? When I was in school (in Michigan) I was absent 10 days, all school related, and still had to meet with the principal and explain my absences (if not I would have to had repeat the semester). As a teacher in Georgia I had students absent 30, 40, 50 days, never meet the principal, the student is allowed to “make up” any work missed, pushed to pass them, even though we know they will not have an understanding of the content. Have this happen a few semesters, by the time they are 16, they are behind and they drop out.
Oh and High school is not college, unless they are in the MID/MOD program, they shouldn’t be there more than 4 years.
Hall county native
August 19th, 2012
10:33 am
“Current schools chief John Barge is more circumspect. “I can’t say that a system was or wasn’t fudging the numbers,” Barge said in a recent interview. “Do I think there is large-scale people wanting to manipulate the system? I really don’t think so.” ”
Well John, the AJC and Channel 2 news proved Hall County Schools were fudging the numbers.
You did exactly nothing to hold them accountable for it ( I guess since you used to be a principal in the system?)
Really don’t think you have room to talk there.
Pride and Joy
August 19th, 2012
10:35 am
Lee, you wrote “Once a student withdraws from a school, I dont see where it is the schools responsibility to track them down.”
The school doesn’t have to track them down at all. They can correclty count them as a dropout.
The school only has to track them down if they want an opportunity to correclty count them as a transfer…and let’s get real here. It took less than seven minutes per student to “track them down.”
Hall County native
August 19th, 2012
10:53 am
That mess in Hall County should have been just as much of a national level scandal and wake up call as the APS mess.
It wasn’t because of the political connections plain and simple. Shame on people like Barge, Cox and Henson for turning a blind eye to those kids and letting that level of manipulation go on so long and so blatantly. No one held accountable.
Mandella1099
August 19th, 2012
10:57 am
Kathy Cox’s comment that there was no way to keep track of students under her tenure is without merit. The GTID as well as the student’s FTE number, both of which can be used to track students, were in place, and she could have moved to the cohort calculation if she wanted to do so; however, its so much easier for her to find blame and believe that all systems are somehow fudging the numbers. If that was the case, why weren’t they fudging them upwards of 90-95%? How about 99%? The answer is because they weren’t fudging the numbers. They were using the calculation methods adopted and amended under the single statewide accountability system that Cox put in place when AYP started kicking into high gear.
There’s nothing like a politician that can do such a masterful job of deflecting the blame as Cox has shown us all…..
exaps teacher
August 19th, 2012
11:00 am
Sure the problem can be fixed ! They (politicians, educrats and Chamber of Commerce) will find a new way to game the system, claim success and the rest is history!
If that does not work, they will blame the teachers for all the problems
should be "GCAE President" whatever that is...
August 19th, 2012
11:02 am
Spending per student in the Atlanta school district proves that there is enough money once the student shows up at school. the cold fact is in the saying ” I can teach it to you, but I can’t learn it for you.” If someone doesn’t want to learn there is absolutely nothing we can do about it. We need to find a way to show this generation of students that not having an education has consequences. They can be the first in their family to learn from their parents mistakes, and make something of themselves. This state is loaded with Asian and Mexican immigrants that overcame more obstacles than African-Americans ever will. Let’s quit coddling them and making excuses already!
Good ole Boys at the Gold Dome
August 19th, 2012
11:13 am
I have a daughter that is a high teacher in S.W. Georgia and she stated the same view of our education system that the GCAE President stated in his comment. I have lived in Georgia for 60 years and we have always had a poor education system.50% of the problem is politics and the other 50% is poverty levels in our state.The sad overview of this is it will not get better and a greater chance that is will get alot of TALK during this election year.
Digger
August 19th, 2012
11:17 am
So you’re saying all those folks with mug shots in the AJC everyday didn’t graduate??
Representative Edward Lindsey
August 19th, 2012
11:18 am
Maureen’s point is right on target. We have a state with challenging student demographics. However, to borrow a great phrase, demographics should not determine destiny. In the 21st century, we cannot afford to double down on our previous mistakes and continue to lose half of each generation because of their lack of skills to compete and prosper in our society.
This blog is heavy with education experts. You are the ones on the front line. So how do we untie this knot?
Ron F.
August 19th, 2012
11:29 am
The problem with this formula is tracking supposed dropouts and transfers. In the economy we have now, families are moving often, sometimes without properly withdrawing a child from school so that there is a trail to follow. It should be a simple matter of tracking the child’s ID#, which is supposed to be trackable throughout the state. The issue is those that move out of state. A national database, which shouldn’t be hard to set up, would help with that. As to dropouts, there is still no reliable way to know if a kid drops out or goes to homeschool, as some do. We have kids listed as dropouts who are actually going to Faith Academy and finishing credits to earn a GED. We don’t get confirmation of them finishing, so they end up being dropouts.
The real elephant in the room here is the need for our entire society to stress the importance of education. We spend our time bashing the system, paying high priced “experts” to bring in big promise programs, we increase course loads, we belittle teachers, and all we get is lower numbers. Part of the solution is reforming schools, but what about the attitude in society at large? We have problems in society that schools can’t fix. We can’t teach them read, write, and do math if they have no home, are in gangs, live in extreme poverty, have parents who spend no time with them, and on and on. I’m not blaming parents as a whole, but as a whole society we have failed. Our schools are a reflection of the larger society, and I’m about done trying to fix it all. It’s like trying to run a marathon when half your body is numb. We, as teachers, can’t do it alone, and until we get a larger portion of our society to stress the importance of education, the numbers won’t change much.
sloboffthestreet
August 19th, 2012
11:36 am
GCAE President
With the average “Child Poverty %” in the United States being @ 22% and Georgia @ 25% I wonder if you think the chicken came before the egg? We have seen 6 states experience a large increase in childhood poverty in the country last year and Georgia was not on the list.
The so called lining of corporate pockets that you speak of brings us back to the chicken & egg discussion. Will attracting better paying jobs reduce the number of poor children or will an education system that produces a properly educated student automatically attract an influx of jobs because of the quality of the applicants available for work? It appears the “Field of Dreams” philosophy of “Build It And They Will Come” only works with imaginary baseball teams today.
Our children’s school 5th grade this year experienced a 28% failure rate for CRCT math. Average household income for our county, $57,000. Average teacher salary at this school not counting administration is $52,000 plus benefits. Watching these children counting on their fingers and being moved to the 6th grade, one has to wonder if we are getting what we are paying for? And math was their best scoring subject. Things that make you go HHHMMMMM? So much for money buying an education.
You also wrote,
“Thank you for noticing this very profound reality.” referring to Maureen posting this article. It happened to be Front Page News this morning. Perhaps the thanks should go to the authors of the article? Nancy Badertscher and Kelly Guckian.
A quote from the article states,
“Georgia officials announced in April that the state’s grad rate was 13.5 percent points lower under the new formula. They blamed the fall in part on the undercounting of dropouts but said they had no specifics.”
I wonder what the other part was????? I feel a Neil Young song coming on,,,,,,,
mountain man
August 19th, 2012
11:36 am
I don’t see what a SCHOOL or the education system can do to keep a child in school. What use is telling a kid to get an education when they tell you they don’t epect to be alive to see their 21st birthday? You don’t need a high school diploma to deal drugs or do carjackings.
What MIGHT be somewhat effective – people without high school diplomas are refused any welfare, food stamps, etc. Their children are automatically taken from them if they can’t support them without aid. That might be effective on half the population anyway.
I am more worried about the ones who graduate with diplomas but can’t read or write, than those who have CHOSEN not to get an education.
mountain man
August 19th, 2012
11:40 am
I see a lot about poverty. I read MaryElizabeth’s article where it all comes down to poverty. I would like to remind everyone that there is nothing a school can do to raise a family out of poverty (nor should it be their responsibility). I cannot understand why people WANT to be uneducated when it is clear that an education is how to break the cycle of poverty. My only guess is that they LIKE the life they have. At least they don’t have to referred to as “acting too white”.
jd
August 19th, 2012
11:40 am
Ron F is correct — this is OUR problem. We, the people, need to pay attention, get involved, and stop letting all these political consultants dictate our life principles via bumper stickers. The Dems failed, and the Republicans have shown that they only understand how to hide and manipulate numbers.
It’s time to ‘rock the boat” people!
living in an outdated ed system
August 19th, 2012
11:41 am
Rep Lindsey – I believe part of the solution is a tight choreography between community revitalization and education reform. Investing in after-school programs such as the Atlanta Music Project will help students with their social and emotional learning development which will then allow academic development.
We need to make our schools intrinsically motivating environments and incorporate digital learning and other tools that will motivate children and increase their time on task.
After school programs have been woefully under-invested in our nation, and they have demonstrated to be powerful and effective aids to keep kids engaged and safe.
We see far too many images of students falling asleep in classrooms, or simply unmotivated. Schools alone cannot solve this problem, but they can be a powerful catalyst if we made them immersive learning environments.
Ron F.
August 19th, 2012
11:44 am
Mr. Lindsey: we start by stabilizing education funding so that schools districts can do the same. We can’t continue this year to year struggle to figure out how many teachers we have to let go in order to balance. We’ve spent TEN YEARS watching you and your colleagues twist and subvert funding formulas. You were cutting funding long before the recession hit. I’m tired of hearing about APS and Dekalb. Deal with them directly, and help the rest of us who are trying and doing our best keep enough teachers to have manageable class sizes and materials to use. My pay has gone down steadily, and yet I have to spend more and more of my own money just to have simple things like paper for the copier and toner cartridges for my printer. I can’t even get a dry erase marker for my board, yet I must have my instructional framework posted every day. I have to pay for simple office supplies that I have to have to meet the requirements of my administration. That’s getting old.
Also, how about some verbal support from up in Atlanta? How about we hear our legislators consistently speak about successes we know are out there. How about you and yours come home once in a while and visit schools? I guarantee you, if you spent a few days in the schools in your district, unannounced and unplanned, you’d see a lot of good and you’d see a lot of needs.
Third, be honest with us about what you plan to do to education funding. “Austerity” is getting old, and we need to know what you plan to do and where the bottom is. I spend my day teaching struggling learners in a rural high school. I LOVE my kids and the challenges they present. I’ve been to their homes to get them to come back to school. I bought and installed an air conditioner for a child who had medical issues and his family couldn’t afford an a/c he needed. I’ve paid for their lunches, I’ve begged and borrowed to help them get glasses, and I’ve collected money to buy shoes and clothes. This isn’t a job for me, it’s a lifestyle. But I wonder how much longer I can keep that dedication when the support from our duly elected legislators is eroding as fast as the education budget. How about you stand before your colleagues and demand we find a way to stabilize education funding and quit wasting time and money on what we all know is Georgia’s attempt to be like Louisiana in coming years.
EdDawg
August 19th, 2012
11:48 am
Tracking!
teacher&mom
August 19th, 2012
11:54 am
Rep. Lindsey,
Ideas for improvement:
Start with is an extended school year for struggling students where they are taught at their own, unique instructional level…not necessarily their grade level.
Smaller class sizes, daily (not once a week) physical education, and the fine arts for every elementary and middle school student.
More diagnostic testing that is quick and does not require weeks of red tape. For whatever reason, more and more students are showing up with ADHD, processing disorders, etc.
Separate english/grammar and reading at the middle school level. The consolidation of LARTS has had detrimental effects on middle school students’ reading abilities.
Offer more choice at the high school level. Allow high schools to offer different tracks and even different credit requirements. Perhaps consider the idea that after the 10th grade, students can chose two routes: Technical/Skilled training or University.
Encourage local businesses and industry to participate in a vibrant internship program.
Fund field trips….cultural field trips, trips to visit industry and secondary education institutions.
Many of the ideas I have posted above have been successfully under various grants. Unfortunately, once the grant money has expired, the programs are rarely funded. I realize the idea of “throwing money” toward public education is unpopular with many voters. However, if we really want to turn around our graduation rate, it will cost money.
The Deal
August 19th, 2012
11:59 am
The problem in Georgia is not poverty; it is that the state of Georgia, in general, does not value education. Students of all socieconomic, academic, and age levels are getting an inadequate education in the public system. If Georgia dedicated itself to education, everyone’s educational experience would be elevated, not just the poor. Unfortunately, Georgia, as a whole, does not seem to have the commitment or desire to do this. The pockets of success are skewing how bad it really is. I am not surprised to see this report at all. Data is all about context.
mountain man
August 19th, 2012
12:00 pm
Ron F. – I think it is pretty clear that education spending has absolutely no effect of graduation rate. The rate of spending per pupil has skyrocketed , and the graduation rate has gone down. The dropout rate is highest where the spending per pupil is the highest (APS).
We need to realize that schools have no way to keep students from graduating, legislators, maybe, but not schools. Schools should focus on that things they CAN change. Maybe they willl then save some who are dragged down by their dropout peers.
mountain man
August 19th, 2012
12:02 pm
“For whatever reason, more and more students are showing up with ADHD, processing disorders, etc.”
I don’t think kids have changed, I think we are just increasing our diagnoses of these “ailments”. In the past, these kids would have gone to regular classes and been taught just the same as other kids and they would have made it just fine.
Ron F.
August 19th, 2012
12:03 pm
Rep. Lindsey: Please accept my apologies if my words to you seem a bit testy today. I just balanced my checkbook, and there’s not enough left to buy groceries and gas to get to school until payday, let alone pay for my children’s lunches. In spite of careful management, I’m living in a house that is now worth 20k less than what I owe, and after paying bills for basic needs and student loan payments for the master’s I earned in order to better work with my struggling readers, there’s never enough to make it to payday. My savings account is empty, and I’ve cut every corner I can just to get by from month to month. It’s hard to keep a positive attitude and continue loving my career, but I’m trying. I’m a single parent with two sons who are great students and I can’t imagine being anything but a teacher. Even if I could possibly make more money doing something else, leaving teaching would be unthinkable. If you want us to improve, help us by giving us some hope that we might not have to endure unknown years of financial sacrifice. We have to quit throwing good money after bad, and we have to deal with those systems that are guilty. Just please quit punishing us all for the sins of the few…please.
Ron F.
August 19th, 2012
12:09 pm
“Schools should focus on that things they CAN change. Maybe they willl then save some who are dragged down by their dropout peers.”
I totally agree with your ideas about APS. I can’t speak for other systems, but I know in my own we are trying to do just that. We’re getting much better at really using data and identifying the kids in danger of dropping out. I can’t imagine even trying to address they myriad issues in APS, Dekalb, etc. right now. I’m in a small system where our schools aren’t bound by dictates from a regime that is so far removed from the schools. We offer tons more support for needy kids, but perhaps it is our size that makes that possible. I’d love to see the larger systems with problems like APS broken up and reorganized. I think we could do a lot more to fix their problems if we deal with them directly rather than keep looking at statewide “reforms” that in the end make it harder for successful districts to function. No easy answers, to say the least.
teacher&mom
August 19th, 2012
12:12 pm
@mountain man: You’ve obviously not darkened the door of a classroom in few years. Is ADHD new? Probably not. But more and more are showing up with learning issues. Autism is just one example.
Your statement, “In the past, these kids would have gone to regular classes and been taught just the same as other kids and they would have made it just fine.” is only partly true. They were taught the same. They were not fine. Most dropped out by the 8th/9th grade.
I know several adults who “stalled” out in the 9th grade until they turned 16. They quit school. Most of them are relatively successful adults. Once you get to know them, you’ll find they struggle with certain learning issues or take medication to help with their ADHD. In the past, because everyone was treated the same, they fell through the cracks and were labeled lazy.
While the graduation rate is atrocious, it is certainly better than in the past. Part of the reason is the increase in diagnoses of learning problems.
Representative Edward Lindsey
August 19th, 2012
12:23 pm
Ron:
Let’s get a few stats in place. Between 2003 and 2008, state spending per K-12 child on education increased by approximately $750 per child. Since the Great Recession began there have been state cuts in education — just as there have been cuts by every other state. However, education cuts have been among the lowest — along with public safety — in the state. The only alternative to these cuts was to raise taxes and we saw how popular that idea was on the T -SLOST vote. Even with these cuts, our teachers are still the highest paid in the southeast and we rank second in the region in overall per pupil spending.
Now, I am not saying we should be satisfied with our education spending level. I believe that as state revenues improve we should prioritize increases to place education at the front of the line. However, we need to be concerned not only with how much we spend but how we spend what we have available.
The reason I am on this blog is that I want to hear from you on how we make sure our focus is in the right place. What existing programs are most helpful to you as a teacher? Which ones are clearly a waste of time? What can be done to improve leadership in your school? Is your central office lean and focused on your classroom or is it bloated and self absorbed? How much do you roll your eyes when you hear from the state? And, most important, how do we reach that hardest to reach student and keep him from being a dropout statistic?
bootney farnsworth
August 19th, 2012
12:29 pm
this is not an educational problem, but once again society comes looking to us to fix something it created. while at the same time telling us how useless we are.
it is our job to educate the ones who are willing, not compel them to stay or punish their parents if
they don’t attend. we’re educators, not prison guards. many of us here have often called for the ability to remove disruptive students. now we’re demanding they stay?
I like the approach society allows the Amish of opting out after the sixth grade.
if society really wants to deal with this, then it needs to decide to have an open and honest discussion on why so many parts of society have developed an anti-achievement mindset.
but to do that we have to be allowing and willing to confront the sacred cows of religion, race, and football.
dc
August 19th, 2012
12:40 pm
another reason to give those students who actually want to learn, the chance to move to a school where they will be around others that want to learn. We MUST quit allowing the few who actually desire an education to be dragged down by the many who don’t….which simply ends in them all failing.
bootney farnsworth
August 19th, 2012
12:40 pm
@ Rep Ed
now wait a minute…..
the ONLY option you had?
that’s not exactly true. not by half.
-you had the option of not throwing money into boondoggles like Sonny fish camp.
-you had the option of requiring caps on income of lottery managers, and rules on how said monies could be spent.
-you continue to have the option of making educational funding more equitable by requiring every Georgian, not just home owners pay into the funding pool
-you have the option to quit forcing the mainstreaming of students who are not ready/willing/capable of regular participation
-you have the option to quit paying for the education of illegal immigrants
-you have the option to stop giving UGA everything it wants whenever they want it.
-you have the option to put the screws to places like DeKalb where they are so profoundly unnecessarily administratively overweight.
-you have the option to allow casino gambling with the stipulation these profits go to education
-you have the option of requiring charter schools to have a corporate partner to defer costs
-you have the option to raise user taxes on things like tobacco
Rep Ed, you guys have options coming out of your ears. perhaps that’s why so many of you have problems actually listening to us.
bootney farnsworth
August 19th, 2012
12:45 pm
@ Rep Ed
full and honest disclosure requires me to state you and Mr. Millar have a massive credibility gap in my eyes in matters concerning education.
if you are actually sincere in this matter, I’m more than happy to honestly dialogue with you. but in this particular instance I’m from Missouri. talk is cheap….
Jen Falk
August 19th, 2012
12:48 pm
Are you interested in grad rates by subgroups for your school under this new formula? Visit http://votejenfalk.com/district-iii-resource-center/
* data compiled by the Georgia Department of Education Open Records
bootney farnsworth
August 19th, 2012
12:50 pm
“Is your central office lean and focused on your classroom or is it bloated and self absorbed”
OMG – are you serious?
lets take two classic examples: DeKalb and GPC. both are fiscal distress. both worked like hell to avoid making any real substantive cuts, opting for cosmetic and score settling. GPC tossed out over 282 people, next to none above the Asst. Director level.
administrative, bureaucratic bloat (the brotherhood of management) is killing education faster than all other issues combined.
bootney farnsworth
August 19th, 2012
12:51 pm
“How much do you roll your eyes when you hear from the state? ”
1000%, plus. frankly put, as a whole we don’t trust you.
bootney farnsworth
August 19th, 2012
12:57 pm
“What can be done to improve leadership in your school?”
-no academic administrator can hold any position in any permanent form without years of actual classroom experience.
vice principals – min of six years in the classroom
principals – min of 10 years in the classroom.
both with a requirement they teach one class every three years.
in college:
no academic VP of any level without 10 years college level instruction
no president without 15 years.
in short, educators need to be leading educators. not people with degrees in ed administration with little to no classroom experience
displaced
August 19th, 2012
1:05 pm
“Current schools chief John Barge is more circumspect. “I can’t say that a system was or wasn’t fudging the numbers,” Barge said in a recent interview. “Do I think there is large-scale people wanting to manipulate the system? I really don’t think so.””
who does he think he’s fooling? this state has fired how many teachers and principals because of test cheating? went after the former Atlanta superintendent because of her lying and pressuring the teachers into cheating. But then didn’t want to manipulate the numbers? is he crazy or just stupid? How long has this clown had his head in his …. Why does Atlanta hire these people? who’s …. are they kissing?
Heather H
August 19th, 2012
1:06 pm
What do expect when you continue to increase class sizes and decrease teachers?
dc
August 19th, 2012
1:12 pm
Maureen….interesting article in NYTIMES at http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/19/opinion/sunday/bruni-teachers-on-the-defensive.html?_r=2&pagewanted=all The comment posted there, and cut/pasted below, tells the story about how good teachers are driven out of our schools better than anything I’ve ever read before. Fortunately GA doesn’t have the same entrenched union system as NY, but the fact that good teachers are not rewarded and supported is uniform throughout.
“I spent eight years as a public middle school teacher in a Title I school. It never seemed like the union was doing the kids any favors. I loved my students, but I was surrounded by incompetence and mismanagement. Most of my colleagues were angry, bitter women who didn’t like children. They should not have been teachers, but they could not be fired. At any given time, we had three to four teachers out on administrative leave, which means that they did something worthy of being fired but were protected by the union. For all but a handful of fellow dedicated professionals, I prayed that at least these disinterested adults weren’t doing the kids any harm.
It all finally ground me down, and I left two years ago to teach at a private school. I now work with colleagues who are uniformly stimulating, motivated, creative, and hard-working people. Did I mention that we work HARD? At my unionized public school, the most common thing I heard in the teachers’ lounge was complaining. Now I can’t get away from teachers running lesson plan ideas past me and inviting me to work on interdisciplinary projects with them. I make about $5000 more at this school, and still probably don’t make enough money for the amount of work I do, but I love my job and can’t imagine doing anything else. At my private school, teachers can be fired for incompetence, and we actually have performance reviews and receive helpful feedback from administration.”
bootney farnsworth
August 19th, 2012
1:12 pm
Rep Ed
I’m sure you’ve heard the expression about beatings continuing until morale improves. its time you guys stop practicing this particular form of persuasion on us.
the single best thing you could do to start convincing us to trust you (legislators et al) is to give us a seat at the table. stop lecturing us, and talking with us.
-one of the most constant complaints about merit pay is you guys were determined to establish what merit was without talking to us as part of the process.
-stop the incessant whining about our non existent unions. frankly it makes you all look stupid. it may be effective red meat for constituents (yes, Fran, I mean you in particular) but has no basis in reality.
-checks and balances: if it was a good idea for the founders, it works for us today. when we have issues of waste, abuse, misconduct, ect we have nowhere to turn. if you make an ethics complaint against the system, the system investigates itself. the snitch lines (common use term, another is the suicide line) are well know for being the best way possible to put yourself in the direct eye of HR, which means the management you wish to report.
create a independent watchdog group which we can use to report concerns to without fear of career suicide
these three steps alone will go a long way to making the gold dome credible in our eyes.
Parent Teacher
August 19th, 2012
1:14 pm
Mr. Lindsey,
The state has continued to transfer the expense from the state to the local level. The state has reduced its responsibility. I like Ron don’t trust what you are saying about funding. Education cuts began under Roy Barnes and have continued through ole Sonny and now our new pal Nathan. Lets be honest. Education was recieving much less State money than before. Just because local and federal funds have made up the difference does not excuse the states lack of responsiblilty in maintaining funding.
As for how to fix the problem, we need a birth to graduation policy. One of the major problems with many students is they begin already five years behind. Parents need resources and support from the day a child is born. Most middle income families and higher have these resources from family and by understanding what is expected. Low income families often don’t know what is neccesary nor do they have the resources. We need community programs to assist in this. It is not something that can be easily legislated it is a long term consistant effort that requires money, patience and assistance from the community.
It also does not help when the legislature does not value or support the work that teachers are doing. I am with some other posters here, deal with APS and Dekalb seperately and stop lumping them in with the rest of georgia.
Digger
August 19th, 2012
1:14 pm
Is anyone not lying about education in Georgia? Perhaps its time to accept and celebrate our lot in life: that of flattering contrast to the other 49 states.
Jessica
August 19th, 2012
1:15 pm
I think we need to recognize that some kids don’t really need 12+ years of academic instruction. Some It would be a lot more beneficial to these students and society to prepare the ones who are not realisitically college-bound for a trade or skill instead. Focus the effort and money on the lower grades, on making sure all kids are grounded in the basics, and after that let them choose their own path — college prep, trade school, apprenticeship, etc.
MsFix_IT
August 19th, 2012
1:23 pm
Dear Community,
It is really time to reform public education. Why? Because the system is base on the past national harvest and agriculture periods. This is not a factor for families now. What we need to look at is adaptative education to direct students into trades and well as higher education. We are not attracting industry to Georgia not just because of low performing academic; but we don’t have the Trades and Craft skills required to fuel industrial applications. Education is more than English, Math, Science and Geography. It is the ability to apply these core disciplines to the work enviroment and adapt to the changes in the workplace and world to be productive citizens.
I received my G.E.D in Georgia over 30 years ago, not because I was slow or dumb. I received the highest G.E.D score in the state and passed all the tests in one session. What caused the discord is that, the educational system did not allow me to learn at a progressive rate. In our society, students are expected to sit still and listen to a lecture inside some inadequately lit quasi sterile enviroment. This serves to put kids to sleep and makes them inattentive. We have to know that learning is interactive. When students are engaged they learn and retain more information. An example, is to know why math is important and how it applies to real life. I use examples of our monentary system and everyday home projects; this gives my grandkids examples of why you must excel at Math and Reading in school.
Additionally, we invest all of our resources in test scores, this is not the measure of a good education. If education cannot be applied to one’s life and work enviroment; then it is a abysmal failure. Our education system was designed to train workers and not develop thinkers, which has lowered our expectation for our public educational system. That is why students with private educations are more prepared for secondary education and to lead corporations and companies.
The points I have made will address some of the shortcomings, but the other factor is being able to look at the future and see that there is a place for you. Students are disillusioned, because going to college and having to work at McDonalds or Burger King is not the American Dream most have envisioned.
Ron F.
August 19th, 2012
1:24 pm
Rep. Lindsey: What I’m rolling my eyes at right now is this:
“Between 2003 and 2008, state spending per K-12 child on education increased by approximately $750 per child.”
While that may be true, you surely know how cuts to QBE formula funding have been ongoing for the past ten years. My system, with an annual budget of approximately 28 million for fiscal 2011 has faced NINE MILLION dollars in state funding cuts in the past ten years. That is on top of rising insurance costs and mandated step raises. We are currently at the 20 mil cap on local property tax assessments on property that has dropped steadily in value since 2008. The funding formula has been state law since 1985. How do you explain those cuts? I’ll post the exact year by year cuts if you would like. Our enrollment has remained steady or grown slightly in those years. We’re a small, basically rural county that doesn’t have a large transient population as would be expected in the larger metro Atlanta systems.
Actually, my system has cut central office staff to the bone. We don’t have multiple levels of coordinators and asst. superintendents that larger systems have. Through it all, I realize how lucky I am to be in a smaller system, even with the funding strain. My only issue is the continued mandates for performance, curricula, and testing that the state imposes while its financial contribution is now less than 40% overall.
bootney farnsworth
August 19th, 2012
1:24 pm
@ Jessica
which would be an EXCELLENT use of charter schools.
the Home Depot school for stilled trades won’t harm our souls. it would solve a few problems
Claudia Stucke
August 19th, 2012
1:26 pm
@Todd: Basing school funding on graduation rates may sound good in principle, but I worry about lowering academic expectations and standards . . . which, in Georgia, are already too low, in my opinion. As late as 2010, my last year as a teacher, students who came to us from other states (or from local private schools) were generally at least a year ahead of our curriculum for student grade level.
With regard to the dropout rate, this is an inopportune time for DeKalb County to fire all its graduation coaches (mid-May, just before the end of the school year 2011-2012). Sadly, the coaches found out that they had lost their jobs by watching the local 6:00 news. The county immediately sent letters to the grad coaches, saying that the decision to terminate individual coaches had not yet been made but would be final by May 14 (”coincidentally” the due date for the coaches’ filing important federal documentation for special-needs students, compliance with the Americans with Disabilities Act, etc.). This action was apparently taken only to ensure that these documents were properly filed, after which the county summarily dismissed all graduation coaches. Although I’ve left the classroom officially, I continue to volunteer with at-risk students to help build on basic skills, as well as to keep them encouraged and supported; but volunteers cannot “fix” the problem. Some of these students barely speak English, some have to work forty-hour weeks to help support their parents and siblings, and some simply don’t want to be in school.
During my classroom days I occasionally had former students talk to current students. Sometimes they were invited; sometimes they just showed up because they wanted to tell the younger kids about their own “real-world” experiences. Whether they went to college or the workplace after high school, whether they dropped out or graduated, all had their regrets and advice. Their words of wisdom had much more impact and gravitas than anything I had to say.
crankee-yankee
August 19th, 2012
1:27 pm
Tired of it
August 19th, 2012
10:08 am
Hear, hear! Good points, the schools are not and should not be depended on to fix the ills of society. The right would agree that those who are failing “need to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps.” The left would agree all students have the ability to succeed. Think there might be a seed for compromise there?
The problem is you have a difficult time winning votes when you speak hard truths. So our “learned” representatives stoke the fires of extremism to fire up the “base” & attack the opposition. Along the way they become beholden to splinter groups that represent stands not truly representative of the norms yet fear losing their support. Money talks, too loudly IMHO.
The graduation rate has been abysmal ever since I moved to this state over 20 years ago. Even then, I noticed & questioned dropout numbers that didn’t reflect what I was observing in the schools. We teachers joked about the “funny numbers” our small county superintendent sent in to the DOE. What I didn’t know then was how widespread the practice was. I have since left that county after we had multiple superintendent changes in a few short years.
Follow the money, local funding can be enhanced when grad rates increase? A way will be found to report an increase.
Getting a federal grant is based on graduation rates? A way will be found to report an increase.
And when something is pointed out as being amiss, the mantra I hear most often is “we did nothing illegal.” Good, that makes it all OK. Why did Kathy Cox feel the need to comment on the report? Maybe because her administration was guilty of misreporting so she wanted to try and head things off with a shot across the bow?
Remember the old adage, you can make statistics say whatever you want them to say. Its all in the spin. You need to look at the raw data to see the truth.
Why are our rates so abysmal state-wide? Many posters have pointed out many valid reasons, none of which are within a school system’s purview to fix. It is a societal problem that needs compromise to find & implement solutions. I fear the current political climate will not allow for that.
Lynn Deutsch
August 19th, 2012
1:29 pm
Rep Lindsey,
Poverty is a huge challenge, but I believe that GA’s many incompetent local school boards are capable of working towards any kind of meaningful solution.
As long as central office bureaucrats and school boards are held harmless in public education in GA, things probably won’t improve very much. We hold teachers accountable, we hold schools accountable, but the state does very little to hold school boards and the people they employee accountable.
It is time for the state to look at other models including those that allow the state to intervene in systems where academic performance is continually low. The state must be quick to intervene in systems that are essentially financially bankrupt and in systems were employees are indicted. I would advocate for term limits for school board members, because more than any other elected official, they impact the outcomes of students and therefore, the future of children.
Texas and North Carolina are among the 24 states where a state takeover of a school system is possible.
http://ielp.rutgers.edu/docs/developing_plan_app_b.pdf
td
August 19th, 2012
1:29 pm
Maureen Downey said:
“I have to point out the obvious here: Georgia has one of the nation’s lowest graduation rates in part because it has one of the nation’s highest child poverty rates. After decades of writing about schools, I am convinced that we can’t deal with one without addressing the other.”
I agree with this statement and would like to know what you believe the ROOT cause of this child poverty is?
bootney farnsworth
August 19th, 2012
1:31 pm
I can’t help but wonder if part of the problem is kids just burn out. when I was in school, (pre Columbus, ya know) a guy could make a decent living without having to finish school. a good living on a HS diploma. college-they sky was your limit.
and the school year was shorter and didn’t have the stupid CRCT crap.
these days a HS diploma means you can join the army. a bachelors is the equivalent of a HS from my time, and masters the new bachelors. for now.
to make any kind of useful dent in education, you now put the first 24 years of life on hold. and for uncertain results. I can see why a lot of kids would ask why bother.
Lynn Deutsch
August 19th, 2012
1:32 pm
Opps that should incapable of working towards any meaningful solution.
bootney farnsworth
August 19th, 2012
1:34 pm
something which gets lost in discussion is until the last 15 years, HS diploma was nice but not vital to many professions in a mostly agricultural Georgia. saying Georgia has a long term graduation issue is not exactly telling the full story
mrb62
August 19th, 2012
1:35 pm
A very simple way to keep track of droputs is to mandate that a child’s official presonal file be transferred to the new school they attend. The current school will keep the official file of every child attending, and that child would not be able to transfer to another school without the file. The physical custody of the file would always remain in official hands of the schools districts to ensure accountability. If a file is tranferred and the child does not show up to the school, either two things have happened; the child has moved out of state or the child has dropped out.
bootney farnsworth
August 19th, 2012
1:36 pm
@ td
its easy to answer, but not politically correct.
we reward a growing segment of society for irresponsibility.
why work, why go to school, if someone else will provide your basics?
CCMST
August 19th, 2012
1:45 pm
@ Rep. Lindsey – thank you for being here!
My first thought in reference to your number of $750/child increase is did that keep up with the pace of inflation? It’s one thing to say we spend more, but it means nothing if it doesn’t go as far.
Answering your questions:
“What existing programs are most helpful to you as a teacher?” Others will disagree, but at my middle school, the graduation coach was hugely helpful. I suppose it depends a lot on the personnel hired and the duties outlined for them but at our diverse metro school, it worked. I was sad to see it go.
“Which ones are clearly a waste of time?” Anything that involves more repetitive paperwork. In the 12 years I have been teaching, I have seen the required paperwork triple. I use data, but we seem to collect it simply to say we collect it! Ridiculous. And RTI does not work – unless the goal of RTI was to keep kids out of special ed.
” What can be done to improve leadership in your school?” I have few complaints about leadership at my school, except I do think teachers should be able to evaluate it. It does provide a nice system of checks and balances. I also think building leaders in general need a lot more time in the classroom. I currently have more time in the classroom than every administrator in my building. I also think we shuffle administrators around too much.
“Is your central office lean and focused on your classroom or is it bloated and self absorbed?” Without naming names, our CO has a reputation (verified by an AJC study a couple years back) of running fairly lean and mean.
“How much do you roll your eyes when you hear from the state?” No offense, but a lot. Third curriculum overhaul in twelve years of teaching…wouldn’t you?
“And, most important, how do we reach that hardest to reach student and keep him from being a dropout statistic?” 1. Get him in elementary, before he’s lost. Speaking from experience, middle school is too late.
Mary Elizabeth
August 19th, 2012
1:47 pm
@mountain man, 11:40 am
“I read MaryElizabeth’s article where it all comes down to poverty.”
===========================================
Mountain man is wrong. I never wrote an “article” in which I claimed that the dropout rate “all comes down to poverty.”
Here is what I did write on August 18, 2012, at 10:54 am, on this blog:
“One primary source of educational problems has been poverty. The state must, again, more fervently address this issue, aside from its educational impact.”
Poverty, among other things, creates a situation in which impoverished students enter kindergarten, and/or first grade, well behind their peers, academically. To minimize the wide range of instructional variances in the early school years, addressing societal problems, such as poverty, would be of substantial help to teachers and to students. I, further, wrote the following words in that same post, the points in which I, also, believe will improve the high school graduation rate, substantially:
“However, traditional public education does need to change and improve, but it needs to do so, primarily, from within through fully understanding and implementing sound instructional principles such as (1) mastery learning, (2) continuous academic progress of each student according to his or her potential to master instructional concepts at point in time, (3) improving discipline, and (4) supporting of teachers in achieving those ends. Public charter schools might help to improve traditional public education, also, but they must work in collaboration with local school districts and traditional public schools, not in competition against them. . . .”
For more information on Mastery Learning, read this link:
https://maryelizabethsings.wordpress.com/2012/01/15/about-education-essay-1-mastery-learning/
Mikey
August 19th, 2012
1:55 pm
Educational materials, cirriculum, and teachers are not the problem folks. It’s the morons who don’t know how to be parents. I have two educators in my house and they both can tell you stories about these “dropout” kids and their home life that would leave you disgusted. The problem is at home.
AJC investigation: Dropouts in Georgia far higher than reported. Can we fix it? | Renascence School International News Blog
August 19th, 2012
2:01 pm
[...] of 2011 left high school without a diploma, nearly double the 15,590 initially reported.”(more) Comments (0) Return to main news [...]
crankee-yankee
August 19th, 2012
2:05 pm
Here’s an interesting factoid put out by Harvard University about education levels needed for future jobs.
http://gacte.org/documents/Symonds%20Presentation.pdf
It was presented at the GACTE conference this summer, bottom line is 33% of future jobs will require a 4-year (BA) degree, 30% will require only a 2 year degree (tech school) and 36% only needing a HS diploma.
So I ask you this. Why are we pushing kids into 4 yr. college prep tracks to the detriment of alternative educational tracks? Do you think maybe that could be part of our dropout dilemma? The kids are pushed into classes they are not suited to and do not prepare them what they will need when they graduate, almost 70% of the kids who should be graduating will eventually be filling jobs for which they do not need a 4 year degree yet we tell them they need to prepare via a college prep track with little or no room for elective classes that will allow them to explore alternatives.
Does anyone else see a disconnect here?
Once Again
August 19th, 2012
2:05 pm
The government spends billions tracking every move every citizen makes from birth to death. As with all of their spying, it only serves THEIR interests. Just like before 9-11, tons of warnings, information, intelligence, etc. should have raised hundreds of red flags, but the bloated bureaucracy was unable to do anything with the information they had or share it in a manner that would have benefitted the average citizen.
The government has no incentive to accurately report on the failure of its educational system. Don’t ever expect it to be honest on this front. All that will come of this will be more calls for more money to more accurately document what we all should know by now – that government run education monopolies do not serve the general good.
SGaDawgette
August 19th, 2012
2:07 pm
@ Rep Lindsey: Typical. In your first entry you ask how to “untie this knot” but when given examples of how to do so by an “expert in the trenches” that don’t fit your political agenda, you change the questions and attempt to scold the messenger. Your blog comments themselves do nothing to engender trust from the educators present here. Why don’t you try actually looking into some of the many ideas put forward instead of trying to build a case for what you have already so obviously decided to do in the legislature?
living in an outdated ed system
August 19th, 2012
2:08 pm
@Bootney, Rep. Lindsey will likely NOT respond to your disrespectful and uneducated tone. Even if you disagree with a politician, it is VERY disrespectful to talk to a public servant that way! I am SO GLAD you do not teach my children – or anyone’s children for that matter!
sassyteacher
August 19th, 2012
2:13 pm
Representative Lindsey:
What can we do to improve education? Given that there is no accountability for parents, let us take them out of the equation for now.
1. Mandate that schools function with a principal, an assistant principal, a book keeper, custodians, cafeteria staff, a counselor, and a secretary. Drop all the data people, curriculum support teachers, and graduation coaches, and any other miscellaneous positions. Principals and assistant principals would have to make their own copies and complete their own secretarial tasks, just like teachers do. Also, mandate that they teach any professional learning classes. They are paid twice what most teachers make, so make them do more actual curriculum and learning tasks.
2. Cut 90% of central office staff in school districts. Leave HR, personnel, benefits. Fire instructional coordinators and every other fluff position. If you do not know what positions need to be cut, survey the classroom teachers. Most central office positions are a bunch of bull. Very few (less than 10%) central office staff actually improves classroom instruction.
3. With the money saved from above, put paraprofessionals in every classroom from K-5, at least 4 hours a day. Yes, it is costly, but they can provide needed small group instruction for half the price of a certified teacher.
4. Mandate phonics instruction in K-5 and optional phonics instruction in 6-8, if needed. Most parents are not reading to or providing a literature rich household for kids.
5. Stop with all of the curriculum madness. I am 42 years old and did not grow up under common core and learned at a very high level. Stop drowning children in curriculum that consists of 8 units, each lasting a month, that covers too much material. For example, in fourth grade, my students should only have 3 units that need to be covered: place value/number sense, multiplication/division, and fractions/decimals. We are broad on standards in Georgia, but short on depth. The kids never have enough time to master a topic. This is extremely important, as the students are getting academically lower and lower every year it seems.
6. Deal with the severe discipline issues in our public schools. It is not fair that kids who do not know/cannot act correctly, make the classroom miserable for kids who do know how to act and impossible for teachers to teach.
7. Mandate high school vocational/technical programs. Not every student wants to attend college and some are not ready.
8. Hire more school counselors for the massive high schools found in metro Atlanta. It is nonsense that high schools with close to 2000 or more students have two counselors. Is there any common sense in that? You do the math as to why students are slipping through the cracks.
9. School boards need rethinking. What we need to do, I do not know. I know they are a mess and typically, what is best for students is the last thing on most of the members’ minds.
Ron F.
August 19th, 2012
2:17 pm
What many need to realize is that addressing poverty isn’t about money. Clearly we’ve thrown money at the problem and gotten no real results. We need to help them with basic needs, but perhaps the most basic need is to help them understand how to move out of poverty. Welfare to work programs are, I believe, an important step. But if you study poverty, especially the working poor, you realize that just “a job” isn’t enough. When you live for years working and still barely surviving, your attitude towards money becomes very different. You don’t see achievement in education as a reasonable goal because it doesn’t answer the immediate need of how to feed your family and keep the power going. Teachers must also understand that children from poverty don’t know how to think long term about the future. Some learn that skill when there is a significant emotional connection with someone they learn to trust. They see how the middle class lives, but they don’t have those values. Teaching them to want to grow out of poverty isn’t about piling on more coursework, or standards, or making graduation requirements stricter. It’s about teaching them to value academic achievement as a step in the process of getting to a better life. Erin Gruell figured it out with that first group of kids she writes about in Freedom Writers. You can follow the standards and teach to the tests all day long and you won’t really change kids’ mindsets about education. The simple first step is to use what they know and connect new ideas to it. There’s not an educational standard for that out there, but there needs to be. For all the chatter we’ve given it, we’re not improving our graduation rate because we aren’t addressing the real societal issues with regards to attitudes about education and opportunity to work up and out of poverty. When the wages of the vast majority have remained fairly stagnant when adjusted for inflation for thirty years, it’s hard to convince kids they can do better. They don’t value education because they see so few from their economic level move up by gaining education. Change that, and you’ll gradually see the stats rise. Keep imposing legislative foolishness and putting the screws to teachers, and you’ll never see more than a small increase. Not even charter schools can ultimately do it better unless they are truly addressing the needs of the kids they serve. Not enough of us really understand the needs of kids in poverty and how differently we have to teach them, and even when we do, we get chastised and receive poor performance ratings for not following “THE SYSTEM”, even if it results in rising scores.
Alex J
August 19th, 2012
2:19 pm
Can someone explain what the AJC’s numbers mean? The state already reported a drop from 80.9 percent to 67.4 (right?), but the AJC is saying they found 30751 dropouts compared to 15590 reported? Does that mean the graduation rate is actually much lower than 67.4? Thanks for any insight you can give me.
Ron F.
August 19th, 2012
2:25 pm
Dawgette: all it takes is a little truth, and the elected officials ruuuuuun like scalded dawgs (forgive the lame pun, there please). They love to dispense rhetoric, ask questions and appear concerned, and then essentially do nothing with it. I challenge them often to come spend days in local schools, but you can bet the farm none do. Mine has never darkened our doors despite his repeated “concern” for education. It’s like they have a response book, and if you say something to them that doesn’t have a party-approved response, they just change the subject. That’s chapter two of the The Party Approved Talking Points Manual.
concerned about education
August 19th, 2012
2:30 pm
Representative Edward Lindsey
Teachers do NOT have any control over how money is spent in schools. I have no idea how much money my school has to spend on anything. I feel teachers should have a say about the budget within schools and school systems. I see a lot of beautiful furniture, signs, and technology in the central office and administration offices. I hear about principals and central office personnel going to expensive conferences. I see all of the programs teachers are made to incorporate without any training or reasons for the programs. Somehow there is money for these programs and the technology it takes run these programs but there isn’t money for books, paper, teacher computers or substitute teachers. Teachers have been furloughed at least six days for four years and had 2% of the county supplement eliminated. But the duties and class sizes have increased. Schools are germ ridden establishments yet teachers are expected to never be sick or out for sickness. Do you have any idea what it is like to teach five classes of 30 or more students when you have an extremely sore throat and cannot talk? I do. We aren’t allowed to hire a substitute so we come to school sick. As Ron F. stated, we spend money out of our own pockets for students and for classroom materials.
What existing programs are most helpful to you as a teacher? Having a school social worker and guidance counselor that has time to deal with student absenteeism, needs such as glasses, homelessness, and abuse are extremely important in my school district. But we only have two social workers for over 10,000 students and only one counselor per school. There aren’t enough hours in the day to meet the needs of our students and families.
Which ones are clearly a waste of time? Positive Behavior Rewards are a waste of time. Why are we rewarding behavior that should be expected? If you are good your reward is not being in trouble, having a clear understanding of the material taught in class, good grades, and an education. I’m tired of seeing money spent on rewarding students for just showing up for class.
Graduation coaches are a huge waste of money.
Para professionals that clearly do not have degrees in education are a waste. Why not hire a real teacher in place of the numerous para pros that do very little in schools. (Yes, there are some great para pros but most of them do very little to increase achievement in student learning).
We must endure community programs that simply do not work. For four or five years we have invited the community to visit our schools. This sounds great and the first year it worked well. But for the next three or four years we spent countless hours and money on the same program and only one or two people showed up. If they had asked teachers we would have said that this program should only occur every five years. I was told the community outreach programs are mandated by the State. Then let the State fund them! Stop mandating programs that the STATE is not going to fund!
What can be done to improve leadership in your school? Teachers should be allowed to have forum for their opinions without being scared to be fired for those opinions. Teachers should have a say in how money is spent within the school. Teachers should be allowed to research and implement programs that work for their students. Every school is different and has different needs. One size does not fit all even within a school system. Teachers know what does NOT work yet are forced to do things that are counterproductive every day. But because we do not have a voice in our own school or school system we just do what we are told and take the blame when a program or initiative fails. Principals generally do not collaborate with teachers and they should.
Is your central office lean and focused on your classroom or is it bloated and self absorbed? I have to applaud the school system for eliminating positions and having the remaining personnel take on multiple duties. However, their salaries are much higher than teachers with multiple degrees. The problem is some of the positions the central office personnel controls have little or no idea what the needs are of the area they control. They make decisions without even consulting the departments they control.
How much do you roll your eyes when you hear from the state? Constantly! Again, one size does not fit all! Every school and school system is different. The State Representatives should take more time to visit schools in their district and talk to teachers, without administration or central office personnel present. Find out what the needs are before making school systems implement programs that are not cost effective and place economic burdens on schools and school systems. Before implementing anything plan HOW it will be implemented successfully and as part of the implementation plan HOW teachers will be trained and PAY for the training.
And, most important, how do we reach that hardest to reach student and keep him from being a dropout statistic? Parents must be held accountable for their children graduating from high school. Parents must be held accountable for making sure their children attend school every day. Parents must be held responsible for making sure someone is at home with their children at night. Parents must be held accountable for feeding and clothing their children. If parents cannot take care of their children properly then there needs to be other alternatives for those children. Schools should not have to take responsibility for parental duties. When a teachers has 150 or more students in their charge they cannot teach all day and then go home with their students to make sure they are being taken care of properly. Most teachers have their own families to take care of.
When a child in my school is not completing assignments regularly and is failing the teacher talks with the counselor and sets up meetings with the parent(s)/guardian. Most of the time no one shows up for the meeting even though the meeting day and time was chosen by the parent(s)/guardian. More meetings are set up and still no one shows up. At the end of the year when the parent(s)/guardian is called to a meeting to inform them their child will not be going to the next grade or is being sent to an alternative program the parent screams outrage at not being informed about this previously. The counselor pulls out the documentation about the numerous attempts at meetings and the parent(s)/guardian then withdraws the student and says they will home school their child, even though they have a full time job and their child will be left alone all day. This happens numerous times throughout the school year when parents don’t like taking responsibility for the education of their child.
FYI…spending has increased for students because the price of everything needed to educate a child has increased. Technology costs! Materials costs! Electricity, water, gas, insurance, upkeep of schools, and all of the other essential needs of keeping a school open COSTS, and it costs more today than it did last year and all other previous years!
Bernie
August 19th, 2012
2:35 pm
One thing many of US will find in agreement , is The Governor’s proposal to move forward with this $430 million New State Funded Welfare Education Program will not help at ALL! This untested and unproven State wide Charter School Plan will only add to the issue of increasing this horrific rate as we move forward in years to come.
The Benefit will be for only as very small select few, while ignoring the most basic needs of most of Georgia’s student population……Funding.
Hello Mississippi !…….Our students will be joining you, in the Race to be First to the Bottom!
Long Time Teacher
August 19th, 2012
2:47 pm
. . . “The school board should hold the superintendent accountable, and the superintendent, in turn, should hold the schools, principals accountable.”
Will someone tell me when the parent is going to be held accountable. The parent enables the child to drop out by allowing them to sit at home and watch TV or worse….setting a generational pattern of teen pregnancy, illiteracy, or laziness.
Dr. Monica Henson
August 19th, 2012
2:58 pm
Rep. Lindsey, thank you for joining this important conversation. “Regular” public high school does not work for all students. The hours of operation, the seat time requirements, and forcing students into age-based cohorts all are part of the mentality that kids must be “herded” for the benefit of making them easier for adults to manage and for school districts to determine how many adults to hire based on the number of kids held hostage seven hours a day for 180 days a year. Areas such as the cafeteria, the hallways during class change, the restrooms, and the gymnasium all offer opportunities for activities and behaviors that add to teen-age drama and detract from a focused learning environment.
As part of our new state-chartered virtual public high school, Provost Academy Georgia, we are opening Magic Johnson Bridgescape centers in Atlanta, Macon, Augusta, and Savannah (with more cities to come) to offer a hybrid learning environment where high schoolers will have high-tech workstations and do their schoolwork in four-hour shifts. By eliminating the distractions and the drama, as well as offering mastery learning credit, we will help under-credited, overaged high school students to reach the goal of a standard diploma. Unlike the Performance Learning Centers, Bridgescape will not screen out the neediest students. PLCs require a minimum 8th-grade reading level and no prior history of disciplinary issues for a student even to be considered. Magic Johnson Bridgescape learning centers do NOT screen out students with low reading levels or prior disciplinary records.
We are staffing our Magic Johnson Bridgescape centers with the same outstanding Georgia-certified teachers who are teaching our home-based students in the cloud–their education experience ranges from 8 to 30 years. We have National Board Certified Teachers and a former two-time Teacher of the Year on our faculty. ALL of our kids will get these terrific teachers (not just the AP and honors students). That’s the single biggest school-based factor in student success: the quality of the teacher. By providing our high-need students with outstanding teachers, we predict a great success rate by the end of our first year for ALL of our kids, not just the high flyers.
It also takes imaginative administrators who are willing to listen to the teachers. On Friday, we had a terrific “out of the box” staff development experience. Our teachers had a webinar with our education service partner to take a look at the live link platform they provide for synchronous tutoring sessions. The teachers were not satisfied with it, so we told them to tell us what they DO want, based on their experience. They launched an ad hoc staff development session of their own, exploring several options, while we administrators, watched, listened, learned, and agreed to fund the technology request to support the choice they reached together. THAT’S how you do job-embedded staff development!
We start classes tomorrow and will run a 200-day school year. Students are not tied to quarters and semesters–as soon as they complete one credit in a subject area, they can start immediately on the next one, allowing for progress at their own pace. Please follow our progress on Facebook and Twitter. We plan to be a true game-changer in the way high school is done for those who don’t fit into the brick-and-mortar district box.
A Teacher, 2
August 19th, 2012
3:07 pm
Rep. Lindsey. thank you for coming in here and engaging in dialog with us. I, too, have heard the “per pupil spending is up” speech from at least four other legislators personally. However, there is the pesky problem that if you increase in one area and cut in 10+ areas, the net effect is a DECREASE! I wonder all the time if members of Georgia’s legislature passed 7th grade math with positive and negative numbers. As a math teacher, I can tell you that your numbers do NOT add up. If educational spending is up, where is the money?? We are not stupid! In fact, we just got rid of one of our legislators that ran on the “I voted for cuts to the state budget……I lowered the size of state government…” Ah, the pesky problem that cuts on the state level that require tax increases on the local level are NOT cuts!! When the state makes cuts, but the state keeps all regulation, and the locals have to pay for it, it is NOT a cut when the locals have to raise more money to pay for it. We are not stupid, sir. Like I said, we got rid of one of the guys who ran on that record in the primary, and the other one is sweating out the November election after seeing his buddy get beat. By the way, the state of Georgia is spending millions and millions and millions every year. Where is the money actually going?? Do you really want people to start investigating that?
So, what can you do to help? One, as others have said, I do not work for Atlanta, DeKalb, or Clayton systems. I frankly insist that you do not paint me with that brush. I work 10-12 hours a day at my job, and I get results. I invite you to come and walk the halls of my school. You will find instruction going on in every classroom all day long. You will see happy kids that frankly love coming to school. You have been told that everything about education in Georgia is bad. Have the courage to go see if that is really true or not.
Two, the legislature has no business legislating curriculum for the state. I have it on good authority that several members of the legislature told the DOE to “fix this math situation, or we will fix it for you.” Math 1, 2, 3, 4 came about largely from pressure from the ATL business community along with some in the legislature. I would be the first to say that parts of Math 1, 2, 3, 4 were not well founded and needed to change. It is UNACCEPTABLE for the legislature to mandate curriculum. As another poster has mentioned, there is waaaaaaaaaay too much curriculum in every subject on every grade level to master. Veteran teachers know that the main problem today is that there is not enough time to master the curriculum that is given to us.
Third, one size fits all does not work. College prep for everyone does not and will not work. Get over it, and lets have an appropriate educational experience for all students. Nothing breaks my heart more that seeing a sweet, hardworking, and wanting to please MIMH kid sitting in a Math 3 class trying to learn logarithms. That is a requirement of NCLB. MIMH kids get the same college prep curriculum everyone else does. Talk about torture!! This is what happens when Congress and the legislature try to pass laws for everything. Common sense seems to go away when the legislature is involved.
Fourth, let us enforce discipline. This means that some kids will have to go so that the vast majority can learn. Accept that fact, and get over it. Oh, and those that are expelled should not count as a drop out. They forfeited their “right” to education when they created havoc or performed the illegal act to be expelled.
Lastly, practice ethical behavior. Turn down lobbyist gifts and campaign contributions from those expecting payoff or undue influence in return. It is hard for us to accept what you say when we see such opportunity for corruption. I am not saying you or any other legislator is corrupt, but the opportunity is clearly there for any legislator.
CharterStarter, Too
August 19th, 2012
3:16 pm
Perhaps I am unclear on all of the related issues here (so please educate me) but…
1. How can you NOT know if someone isn’t at your school any longer? If a kid doesn’t show up to school for a few days..don’t you report them truant? We have laws related to this.
2. If districts in each district require enrollment paperwork from the sending school district, then how are kids getting “lost?”
3. The state’s new data system gives each student a unique ID….so how are kids getting lost?
The only “fall through the cracks” cases that would make sense to me without further information would be those not showing up to school and just moving out of state.
Please advise.
Representative Edward Lindsey
August 19th, 2012
3:16 pm
Let me first clarify the $$$ game that gets played around the issue of state supported local school funding. (You can actually see it played out in Bookman and Wingate’s columns today.) In general terms, there are two pots of state K-12 education money (which combined is just shy of half the total state budget) that go to local systems. The first is QBE, which is essentially a block grant. The second are various targeted programs which range from subsidizing certain targeted curriculum such as math or science, technology improvements, transportation, school nurses, graduation coaches, certain forms of teacher salaries, libraries, etc.) When Robert F. speaks of funding cuts, he is speaking of shortfalls in fully funding the QBE formula — which has never been fully funded in twenty five years but is a very valid point on his part. My earlier figures deal with the total package –both the block grant and targeted programs — since I generally do not believe you can focus on only half of a bucket of water. All total, even after taking into consideration the 2008-12 overall budget cuts I spoke of earlier, total per pupil K-!2 spending over the last ten years has increased by about 10%.
That said, as I stated earlier, I am not arguing we are spending all we need to be spending on education or that all the various targeted programs have proven to have the merit that was originally intended. I simply want to hear from you about how to improve on where we are spending the money we presently have available, what non budgetary actions we need to take, and how to tackle the original question raised in this post.
I appreciate the comments and suggestions raised — even those from Farnsworth who after saying he/she does not trust me went on and gave some important things to think about.
If anyone wishes to send suggestions in private, my legislative e mail address is edward.lindsey@house.ga.gov.
With that I will now recede back into what I enjoy doing most on this blog — listening.
Edward
crankee-yankee
August 19th, 2012
3:19 pm
Representative Edward Lindsey
August 19th, 2012
12:23 pm
I would like to see the data of which you speak concerning increased per student spending from 2003-2008.
I am having a hard time understanding how Gov Purdue’s “austerity cuts” during that time jibe with increased per student allotments.
I see many dollar amounts emblazoned across headlines from $5.5 Billion to $7.3 billion in overall cuts since 2003 to present. Now, the totals may differ, but they all represent cuts, large cuts.
Additionally, how do you defend the state’s overall decrease in state education funding from over 50% (or was it over 60%?) pre-Purdue to the present 38%?
Were the state providing the majority of the funding for education, I could understand (not agree with, but understand) the position of those in favor of the Charter School Amendment. But if you are a minority stakeholder, you have no business dictating policy to the counties. That is not my definition of “local control.”
I echo many on this blog in recommending the state focus on punishing the failing systems but let the working systems continue to work without having to suffer penalties because of the failures. After all, how quickly would I end up explaining myself to my principal were I to punish my entire class (of 41 students by the way) because of the misbehavior of a few?
Gail
August 19th, 2012
3:20 pm
I know the methodology needed to change but it doesn’t seem right to count students who are enrolled in school as dropouts just because they didn’t graduate in four years. Is that how they are counting them in the new method? A 4 year graduation rate is not the inverse of a dropout rate. Also, schools with high numbers of ESOL students may have more students who take more than four years to graduate.
Dr. K EdD
August 19th, 2012
3:22 pm
AND A MESSAGE TO ALL YOU CHARTER SCHOOL PEOPLE….MAN UP AND PAY TUITION LIKE ANYONE WHO SENDS THERE KIDS TO A NON-PUBLIC SCHOOL. I BELIEVE YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO OPT OUT OF PAYING TAXES FOR PUBLIC SCHOOL IF YOU SEND YOUR KIDS TO A PRIVATE ONE. BUT AS IT STANDS YOU HIDE BEHIND LEGAL MUMBO-JUMBO TO SEND YOUR KIDS TO SOME DRY, VAIN, RESTRICTED SCHOOL AND WE HAVE TO PAY FOR IT!
Ron F.
August 19th, 2012
3:27 pm
“The hours of operation, the seat time requirements, and forcing students into age-based cohorts all are part of the mentality that kids must be “herded” for the benefit of making them easier for adults to manage and for school districts to determine how many adults to hire based on the number of kids held hostage seven hours a day for 180 days a year”
Thanks Dr. Henson for making me feel like a prison guard. Just so you know, I have a master’s and state certification in reading k-12 and teach some of the very high school students you speak of who typically read well below 8th grade level. I work with them one-on-one and teach them without the use of high-tech workstations. I diagnose and remediate specific reading issues, from basic phonics instruction to more elaborate and critical reading skills, and regularly see my students move up multiple levels. I do that in a traditonal public school…or should I say prison?
cgregister
August 19th, 2012
3:28 pm
I worked as a registrar for over 20 years in one of the large metro school systems and the truth of the matter is, students move. If they are in elementary or middle school and have their health records, birth certificate,the new school does NOT request records from the old school and if the parent doesn’t tell you where they are going or the truth, the losing school is out of luck. If the child is in high school and they withdraw, the new school should request a certified transcript, but don’t always do that.
The solution would be a nation wide data base. How it would all be configured, I’m not sure. The one thing that I do know, is that we are a very mobile society and people fall through the cracks because of this.
After Hurricane Katrina, the GRITS immunization system was allowed to be used in the school house setting and I know for a fact that it has helped facilitate faster and more timely enrollments for some students, whose parents can sometimes be lazy.
oldtimer
August 19th, 2012
3:39 pm
I think GA is doing much better than they used to, but I wonder how much we can afford to spend for someone who does not want to be there. How much time needs to be spent to track the ones leaving? The schools resources are getting thinner and schools cannot just keeep spending. I do think if someone takes 5 or more years the rates need to be improved. Also if a former dropout gets a GED that ought to influence the schools record.
Tinkerella
August 19th, 2012
3:40 pm
Amen, A Teacher, 2 and to Ron F. and Dr. Monica. While I have given up on getting my 16 year old through public high school and he is now home schooled, I do have a 6 year old that will attempt to go through this fiasco. And since it was brought up here, his school system never asked why I was home schooling him. I think they were just glad he was leaving as his poor grades in math were making them look bad. He is the kind of kid that needs to be in a vocational school – not on a college track. He is very smart in science and anything mechanical. What a shame it is that there is no alternative for him at the public school level. He is now doing wonderful in his home school work as he does not have the distractions he had before while in public school.
If legislators really want us to take you serious, start by taking the state government out of the local school board’s decisions and stop cutting the money to the bone. We can no longer afford to force every child on the same path to college when a majority of them probably don’t belong there without remedial classes (and then quit going anyway). We can’t afford to change curriculums every other year to “see” if that will help.
Mr. Lindsey and Mr. Millar need to pay attention to these people like Ron F. and Dr. Monica and MaryElizabeth. They speak the truth.
Ron F.
August 19th, 2012
3:40 pm
Rep. Lindsey:
“When Robert F. speaks of funding cuts, he is speaking of shortfalls in fully funding the QBE formula — which has never been fully funded in twenty five years”
With all due respect, please explain the following as simple QBE cuts. There’s more than just cuts to QBE and you know it. Transportation monies, etc. have also been cut. If not, then how do you explain the allowance, from the state, for schools to renovate rather than replace, buses beyond the normal accepted life span? My kids were riding 14 year old buses in many cases last year. It doesn’t matter if you take it from one bucket and leave the other alone. Either way, your contribution to public education in this state is just shy of 40% now.
My system, with a reported budget running normally between 25 and 30 million per fiscal year has seen the following cuts:
FY10- 1.2 million
FY11- 2.3 million
FY12- 2.4 million
For years from 2003-2009, the cuts ranged from a low of $188k to as high as $704k for 2005 and $704k in 2006. That’s not just QBE cuts, is it? It’s a real stretch to think that we’d even consider allowing you to create more state level beauracracy, no matter how small or how efficiently it runs, when those numbers are out there and there’s no end in sight. If you want our votes, you better start talking about the funding plan for education in specific numbers, not just “reform” and “parent choice.” You won’t get much from us until you do.
crankee-yankee
August 19th, 2012
3:42 pm
To those pointing out the time spent by Eagle’s Landing HS “finding” former students at only 7 minutes per kid. Did you take into account how many people were working at it for those seven hours? From what I read, it was more than two. If it were 2 then it was 14 man-minutes per kid. Were 4 working on it? Then it would be 28 man-minutes per kid, and so on. We do not have all the data necessary to determine how long the average time it took for that school to find those 30+ kids in actual man-minutes (or man-hours). This is how data is misinterpreted & twisted to make a political point.
MomofTWO
August 19th, 2012
3:54 pm
Wow….folks single parenthood of an African American mother should not infer poverty. While data may suggest that a majority of AA mothers might fit into this category, I do not. I am appalled at such a generalization.
Another issue with this data – how is/was it defined? Helloooo! If kids did not pass the graduation test (which was eliminated with this graduating class), regardless of the number of credits they had, they earned an “I’ve attended school for 12 years certificate” not a diploma indicating that they’ve graduated. A certificate of attendance does not earn the designation of graduate.
Lastly, as a single, college educated (with degree), African-American parent, I have had to step back and take a look at what I feel is a sub par education in Georgia. I was educated here (both private & public) and cannot understand what is going on in Georgia schools today. Living in one of the top performing counties, I opted to remove my children from the traditional brick and mortar schools this year. Homeschooling became a clear choice and has been very successful for us.
We can’t just identify a county or two. Leaders at the GADOE are at fault for the whole sham and need to come under fire for their practices and policies that trickle to the local level!!
robert thomson
August 19th, 2012
4:09 pm
This problem will never get fixed as long as we continue to ignore schools and the extremely hard working educators that work every day to educate our youth. All the government thinks about is cut cut cut cut cut the budget. Class sizes are bigger than I have ever seen them in 12 yrs of teaching. It’s insane! And then the government is going to start to place the blame on teachers? Give me a break already! enough is enough!!!
bootney farnsworth
August 19th, 2012
4:09 pm
@ Rep Ed
frankly, you have no reason to trust me, either.
but trust can be earned
I’m willing to do my end. you?
Dr. Monica Henson
August 19th, 2012
4:13 pm
Ron F, for many, many high school kids who aren’t lucky enough to have a teacher like you, school IS like prison, until they are old enough to quit. I submit that for a substantial minority of high schoolers, the traditional public high school is a wonderful place. For a large chunk of “average” kids, it’s a boring place except for the socializing and perhaps one or two really inspiring teachers. The rest of the time, classes feel like jail for many of them, but they have families who insist that they be there and get through it. For a substantial minority, about one-third of high school students nationally, high school is NOT a place where they want or are even able on a consistent basis to be, for a variety of reasons. Many students are bullied mercilessly. Many of them are not challenged with inspired teaching. There is an awful lot of wasted time in a typical high school day. The least stable and capable students are usually subjected, year after year, in many if not most districts to the least capable teachers. When that is NOT the case, it is a happy and lucky anomaly.
The American public high school classroom is for many, many students, a boring, stultifying place that must be endured rather than enjoyed and embraced. That is a simple fact substantiated by the large percentage of kids who quit high school. The dropout profile, however is complex. It’s not just kids who are bored and whose parents don’t care enough to keep them in school who drop out. It’s also not just low achievers. Teen parents, teens who have to help their single parents put food on the table, kids who don’t/won’t/can’t play the “game” that is classroom management in many schools, kids who run away from home, the list goes on and on.
CharterStarter, Too
August 19th, 2012
4:16 pm
@ Bootney – You DO have a heart.
bootney farnsworth
August 19th, 2012
4:18 pm
@ charter
don’t tell anyone. especially my kids
Dr. Monica Henson
August 19th, 2012
4:21 pm
Oldtimer, GEDs are not allowed to be counted as a graduation because that incentivizes schools to pressure “undesirable” students to leave and get a GED instead of staying and graduating. This happened for decades in high schools; principals would call in the troublemakers and “encourage” them to withdraw and go for a GED. There is considerable research demonstrating that students who earn a GED have lower lifetime earnings than high school graduates. Also, GED students lose eligibility for the HOPE Scholarship and the HOPE Grant.
Dr. Monica Henson
August 19th, 2012
4:28 pm
Ron F., it’s not the teachers that I’m criticizing the most with my reference to herding kids into age-based cohorts–it’s the factory-model mentality of the American public school district. This is how school is done in America–we figure out how many kids there are in each age group, sort them into ZIP codes, and then we can determine how many teachers, paraprofessionals, cafeteria staff, custodians, maintenance workers, and other support staff to hire. In many cities and counties, the school system is the largest employer. Elected boards of education frequently (usually?) run the districts like employment agencies for adults, and student learning becomes incidental. This situation is by no means unique to Georgia.
crankee-yankee
August 19th, 2012
4:33 pm
Perhaps a GED could count as a half a HS graduate? Think of the fun we could have with that!
Dr. K EdD
August 19th, 2012
4:36 pm
DR. MONICA…YOU SPEAKUM TRUTH…UNFORTUNATELY IT ALL FALLS ON DUMB EARS! (NOTICE I DIDN’T SAY DEAF!)
bootney farnsworth
August 19th, 2012
4:36 pm
@ monica
that is part and parcel of the choices students and their families make.
while GEDs are better than nothing, they are also often an indicator of how much or how little importance the recipients give education.
if they stupidly want to back themselves into a corner ….
I would love to see some kind of alternative where a better educational option can be had for those few who didn’t blow off their education but got caught up in bad circumstances
Its that new math
August 19th, 2012
4:38 pm
Its not the schools, guys/gals….its the NORMAL family unit breakdown. Most kids with a two parent home enviroment do reasonably well if they dont excel. We are asking teachers to do way more than their job description calls for. As long as getting a divorce, getting welfare, and not staying married are made an easy convenience, dont expect the populous to govern themselves. But thats what the Democrats want, if u can wipe ur own behind, u wont vote Democrat. Democrats need weak and helpless people wanting handouts to keep them in office…..its all part of their master plan for a pertual nanny state.
bootney farnsworth
August 19th, 2012
4:40 pm
I like using zip codes as the basis for establishing school districts. schools anchor communities.
I would strongly oppose another method (outside some charters) for public education.
that said, I would love to establish some better criteria for school board than residency and pulse.
some minimum length of time in community, kids in school in said community, and a minimum of Associates Degree or comparable professional experience.
bootney farnsworth
August 19th, 2012
4:41 pm
@ Ron
you also from Missouri on this matter?
talk is fine, but show me..?
Ron F.
August 19th, 2012
4:45 pm
Dr. Henson: careful with the broad brush there. I know you guys in the charter system feel like the “red-headed stepchild” at the table here, but I hope you know by now that many here are not against you. Your program is serving an important role in a system that needs options like yours. While I agree that traditional high school isn’t working for many kids and that the dropout rate is far too high, it isn’t for lack of trying on the part of teachers. I honestly don’t believe there are as many overpaid babysitters as many think. The state and federal governments set policy, choose curricula, and decide what’s needed to graduate. We teachers are the ones trying to make it work, and we do so without much fanfare mind you. I truly believe you serve an important function in reaching out to kids who need something different, and I will be anxiously following the Bridgescape program, as those are the kinds of kids I love and deal with every day. If it works, I’ll cheer you on, and you can count on it.
That said, let’s try to be specific in our problem discussions. We could fire every teacher in the public school system and replace them, and things wouldn’t change much. The policies and mandates from our governmental leaders have put us where we are, and yet many more of us than you might think still care and are trying our darndest to work from within the system to improve it. It isn’t easy, and you might be surprised how many times I’ve considered jumping ship and going to a private or charter school. Do it right, and you just might see me at your door one day…especially if our state legislators keep up their despicable antics. I think the doubts and questions thrown at charter schools come from years of being browbeaten by our legislators who pander to us at election time and knife us in the back once the next legislative session begins. We don’t readily accept your work because ours is so denigrated in the public forum, no matter what good we do. We’re like the beaten dog who sees everyone, no matter how good, as a threat. It comes from years of watching funding go down while demands go up with no encouragement from anywhere to do the right thing. We’re as frustrated as you are, and yet even less empowered to do anything about it.
We need to be together in the movement to improve education. Our fearless leaders would love for us to be at each other’s throats, and I think have penned legislation that encourages just that. I also think they delight in us looking at each other negatively. I honestly think they don’t want us to ever find and work together on the common ground that is there. We’d see numbers go up, and then they’d actually have to pony up some money to continue the success. We’re both pawns in a sense in their game, in my opinion.
All that said, please be aware as you criticize that you can offend some of the very people you need to be helping you encourage innovation and change. Sometimes the best way to get to the “warden” is to work with the guards.
Ron F.
August 19th, 2012
4:48 pm
@bootney: “talk is fine, but show me..?”
You betcha, and so far I’m not seeing them show anything but their arses. Can you believe Lindsey actually admitted, as if it were a good defensive point, that the state hasn’t fully funded QBE in 25 years?!! On the idiot scale of 1-10, that was 17 at least!!
Old Physics Teacher
August 19th, 2012
4:48 pm
This has been said over and over but you guys just don’t want to hear it. The more people graduate, the less value the degree becomes. Any sufficiently large population (a state’s population) follows the normal distribution curve. The mean, median, and mode all have the same value and approximately 68% of your population exists within one standard deviation of the mean. For every percent more than 60% of your population that succeeds at any performance, the worth of that performance drops.
For Georgia to succeed at NCLB and get 100% success, the high school degree would have to be totally worthless! Parents instinctively understand this and realize their children’s education is a shadow of what they received. That’s why the huge flight away from public schools is occurring!
You guys gotta stop this and let the schools educate and test and fail students who don’t want to learn or can’t learn the material. If you don’t, the nation is going to be filled with people with high school degrees and college degrees who believe scientific theories are the same things as opinions… Or worse, these people will believe politicians and media specialists know as much about science as scientists… oh wait… It’s already occurred!!
Representative Edward Lindsey
August 19th, 2012
4:49 pm
All:
I said I was gone but maybe not quite yet.
First off, Robert F.: You and I are focusing on two different things in terms of education budgeting. I am talking about macro in terms of the entire pot of education money and you are talking about micro in terms of particular areas of spending — which is very legitimate but takes this discussion away from Maureen’s original focus and I do not want to do that.
My numbers come from the House Budget Office, which is our equivalent of the CBO on the federal level. I’ll be happy to discuss them with you and get you information you want off line about particular areas of concern about the budget, if you will e mail me at the address I earlier posted. The same offer goes to others.
Farnsworth: I recognize that on the national, state, and local government levels trust is at a dangerous low in this country. I might also add that our citizens hold just about every other professional and business institution, including our education establishment, in very low regard. (I might also add Maureen that they don’t like the press either.) I believe that everyone on this discussion got into education in order to make a difference. You may not believe me but I got into law and then politics to do the same. It is going to be harder for each of us to show this to the people we serve for some time to come. That is simply the times we live in. But I am trying — why else would I be blogging with you on a Sunday afternoon?
Take care,
Edward
Ashley
August 19th, 2012
5:00 pm
Each generation is suppose to be more advanced than the one before……..my great-grandmother born in th1900 had little or no schooling, my grandmother born in the 1920’s had about an 8th grade education, my mother born in the late 1930’s and graduated high-school in 1955. I was born in 1958 and graduated high school in 1976 and college in 1979. I with to school when minorities were making geat strides when itcame to getting a college education, we were not rich and some were not even middle-class, but that did not stop us. I take offense everytime I read or hear a statement that says being poor is one of the main reason kids aren’t educated. I think that dead-horse has been beaten enough. We have people like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton always on the frontline when a perceived injustice is done in the black community, but where are their big mouths when minority children are skipping school and committing mayhem in their community, they have get out the vote rallies, but where are the stay in school rallies? Just one time I like to go to the mall and not see school-age kids hanging out before 4:00 in the afternoon, just one time I like to see teenagers take pride in their schoolbooks the way they admire their latest cell-phone or ipod. Education should mean progression and not regression, it starts when a baby says his or her first words and should never end. Doesn’t take a lot of money, just the will and commitment …..an open book that is been utilized knows no social or economic status.
Representative Edward Lindsey
August 19th, 2012
5:01 pm
Sorry for the typo, I meant Ron F. in my previous post — and thanks for the commentary on my intelligence. It is always good to be humbled every now and then. Have a good day.
Dr. Monica Henson
August 19th, 2012
5:05 pm
bootney farnsworth: It’s a seriously flawed assumption that most dropouts left school because they don’t value education. Really? One-third of the population of this country aged 16-18 just doesn’t give a dman? That gives way more credit than is deserved to what passes for valuable “education” that is served in dropout factories and is reasonably well-hidden in most high schools.
If the American public school system truly valued education, we’d make high school a place where students could and would do anything to stay and complete. That means a lot more flexibility, a lot more technology and relevance, a lot more excellent teachers, a lot more visionary administrators, and a lot less politics as usual by local boards of education.
Dr. Monica Henson
August 19th, 2012
5:06 pm
“damn.” Typing without my reading glasses is not good.
Ron F.
August 19th, 2012
5:07 pm
Rep. Lindsey: I only push the point because everyone, in open conversation, needs to be aware of the realities. Regardless of how you look at it, the funding cuts have seriously impaired our ability to function. Whether you look at the macro or micro levels, the state has consistently, over the past ten years, reduced its contribution to education, period. Regardless of how you or I see it, I am on the front lines where class sizes are way up and teacher effectiveness is challenged. I’m out there where there isn’t enough money to buy books or technology the kids need. If we’re going to debate graduation rates, which is the topic of this thread, then we have to understand how the numbers you are dodging here, none too artfully, affect our ability to address that. We can’t get to the kids who are in danger of dropping out when there are 30 or more of them in front of us for 55 minutes a day. We can’t put in place the programs and personnel to counsel them and remediate them when we have to raise our student/teacher ratios. I prefer to discuss this here because I think it’s time for everyone- parents, teachers, and the general public to understand what we’re dealing with in our public schools. In systems that are still, through it all, working toward raising the graduation rate, we are stretched to the limit financially and have little left to cut. We’ve had to reduce our budget by 10% a year, and it doesn’t matter what your budget office tells you. I’m down here in the trenches telling you we dont’ have enough troops and you’re making us buy our own ammo, general, and all the while you’re back at HQ smoking a cigar and drinking coffee and discussing big win/loss numbers. Again, go out and spend some days in schools in your district. You will get a much better truthful image of what’s really going on and what your number crunchers downtown have no idea about in reality.
Ron F.
August 19th, 2012
5:11 pm
Rep.Lindsey: I do appreciate the fact that you are here reading our posts. I’m giving you grief, but I hope you’re understanding the frustration we feel at constantly having to do more with less. It’s getting tiring talking about improving graduation rates when I can’t even get a toner cartridge for a printer or a ballpoint pen to write comments for my students’ essay rubrics or keep notes about what my struggling students need without digging in my change pocket to see if I have enough to buy a pen.
Representative Edward Lindsey
August 19th, 2012
5:21 pm
Ron: I do not smoke cigars. I don’t even drink coffee. I do, however, spend time talking to teachers, parents, and students in my district. If I had a magic wand and could get more money to you and every other teacher I would because I do realize more is needed — if it is spent wisely. I said that in my first post and I am repeating it here.
I am also realistic. I don’t have a magic wand and unlike the federal government I do not have a printing press. Your neighbors and my constituents do not want us raising taxes. Therefore, we have to try and improve our economy so more revenues can be generated so we can wisely spend more on education. Until we do, we need to spend what we have wisely and put forth those policies that can can help you in the classroom. I know you are on the front lines. I know that you are frustrated. That is why I am still here listening to you.
Ron F.
August 19th, 2012
5:23 pm
Dr. Henson: I posted a reply to you that has apparently been lost- computer burp here, I suppose. If this ends up being a repeat, please ignore it.
I was a tad bit…well, okay, just plain snarky earlier. I have to ask though, that you be careful with your broad brush about public schools. I’m actually quite interested in what you are doing with Bridgescape, as it target the same kids I love and sweat over every day (if they had the money to fix the A/C, I might not sweat so much, but I digress). It is, to put it simply, the system created by politicians that has put us where we are. The mandates for school functions, including number of days, curricula, etc. are set by both the federal and state government. Their solution to “more rigor” was just “more” period. I know you understand the hard work that probably most of us in the system are doing to try to make it work regardless, as your subsequent posts show. Unless things change in the next few years, and if Bridgescape is successful, you just might find me at your door. I have some excellent bona fides, if you’ll pardon a tad of self-aggrandizement.
I think the legislature enjoys the enmity between our two philosophies. Divide and conquer seems to be the plan of late. What I’m realizing is that while we have different approaches, our goals are the same. I think if we can ever get past the distrust and sometimes outright ugliness, we could accomplish much more together. I honestly believe the state, in general, doesn’t want us to do that. The results could be phenomenal, and then they’d have to pony up the money they obviously want neither of us to have. Even as I criticize, I am watching and learning, and changing my opinion of what you do. Just extend us the olive branch and watch out for the knee-jerk reactions we’ll give when you criticize. My hope is that there is a way to understand the good on both sides. I’ll watch, and point out the flaws I see, but I promise to try to be fair in doing so in the future. My hope is that we don’t both end up continuing to be the pawns in the legislature’s endgame of privatizing public schools. I suspect Louisiana is one example of where we’re headed, and I don’t think that’s the way we need to go.
Representative Edward Lindsey
August 19th, 2012
5:24 pm
Ron: One more thing. If I haven’t said “thank you” for being a teacher I apologize. You clearly care deeply and you are the type of person that needs to be where you are. That goes for the rest of you as well.
Hillbilly D
August 19th, 2012
5:29 pm
Please note that Georgia has never done well with low-income students.
Never is a long time. Just curious as to where the starting point is?
sloboffthestreet
August 19th, 2012
5:31 pm
Jen Falk Posted,
August 19th, 2012
12:48 pm
Are you interested in grad rates by subgroups for your school under this new formula? Visit http://votejenfalk.com/district-iii-resource-center/
Now after visiting this site and viewing the data from our county high schools, the “Economically Disadvantaged” students outperformed their “Non Economically Disadvantaged” counterpart with an average higher graduation percentage of 3%.
So much for the poor kids being the problem.
Ron F.
August 19th, 2012
5:40 pm
“I do, however, spend time talking to teachers, parents, and students in my district.”
I hope that’s true, Mr.Lindsey. I can’t say I’ve seen a representative of mine in 20+ years darken the door of my school. While you talk to these different groups, I would again urge you to go in and spend time in classrooms. You need to see teachers in action, not just talk to them here and in forums outside of school. I know there’s no magic wand, and I fully expected budget cuts when the economy tanked. I also don’t sense a lot of commitment from many in your ranks to restoring any of that funding when and if revenues improve. I realize we get the lion’s share of the state budget, and we need to learn to manage money better. I can’t speak for the metro systems, but a lot of us outside the metro loop have certainly learned how to do a lot for less.
Having read the posts here today, I think many have touched on administrative reforms I’d love to see you propose legislation to address in the coming session. I think the state has a right to set some rules for how its money is used and needs to perhaps set some more specific rules for administrative functions as a % of budget. However, unless you get back closer to 50% of local budget, you’ll have a tough time keeping systems from just using local money to keep the status quo intact. Could the legislature also set limits on superintendent salary/benefits to keep them in line with budgets locally? I don’t know if that is in your legal purview, but it might be worth considering. While I don’t think my superintendent is at all overpaid for how hard he works with a minimal county administration, I know many are in larger districts especially. I also think it would benefit all school, traditional public and charter, to be required by law to have systems in place for teachers to be stronger stakeholders in school functions. I’m not asking for a vote in expenditures or programs, just a defined system for us to have input and commentary before program or curricula items are decided so that we feel a little more like we’re part of the system, instead of just the trench soldiers I mentioned earlier. I think we need some way to take the top-down approach of running the state’s schools to more of a two-way flow of ideas and plans. If you make us feel more valued with something beyond platitudes, we’re a lot more eager to do our jobs and I think the results would show up in graduation numbers and test scores.
concerned teacher
August 19th, 2012
5:42 pm
If more money is being given to educate children, where is it? In my middle school we no longer have art, music, foreign language, computer classes, substitute teachers, professional learning for teachers, and much more. Every year we loose more teachers and increase class sizes. We work more hours a day and have numerous duties after school for which we are not paid. Show me how we can continue to educate children as they deserve to be educated when so many courses are being eliminated due to lack of funding?
Hillbilly D
August 19th, 2012
5:50 pm
If more money is being given to educate children, where is it?
I’m no expert but to the naked eye, looks to me like it goes for administrators and to build new buildings . There appears to be no shortage of money to build new buildings for the university system, at least not in North Georgia.
Pride and Joy
August 19th, 2012
6:05 pm
td asks the most important question of all ” agree with this statement and would like to know what you believe the ROOT cause of this child poverty is?”
The root cause of poverty is a lack of education.
An education is the surest way out of poverty. I experienced it myself. Poverty can be CURED in one generatoin or less through education.
Now why is it that many poor people do no want an education? Why would they rather wallow in pity and poverty and blame others for their fate?
Why does an entire culture value blaming the man more than lifting themselves out of poverty?
That’s what I don’t get.
Why is an education “acting white”? Who sold that line of BS? Who brainwashed them into thinking that educaiton is “acting white”? Martin Luther King was educated. He was selected to lead the civilo rights movement because he was educated.
Why does the black Atlanta community shun education? That is the real question. Getting an education is somewhat difficult for a few years. Living in poverty and being incarcerated for a lifetime is much more difficult. That’s what I can’t wrap my head around.
Education in the US is FREE for the poor.I mean 100 percent free for the poor. WHY don’t they get one? Life would be easier.
I can lead a thirsty horse to water and he will drink.
But, it seems, some human beings don’t have as much sense as a horse.
Bernie
August 19th, 2012
6:07 pm
Who is kidding, who here? Georgia and its citizens for the most part, has never been interested in the least among us. Never has or ever will.
These statistics and others have reflected that reality time and time again. We might as move along to the next topic of the day, for this one comes as no surprise, least of all to the many non caring citizens of Georgia.
We only become concerned and outraged when it involves the denial of the entitled ones among US! This is who….. We ARE! and what we have become!
The Price of our Failure, will continually to be seen daily during the evening and nightly News!
Conscious
August 19th, 2012
6:30 pm
Georgia’s problems under GOP leadership: a massive high school drop out rate, low literacy rates for those who do complete high school, few resources for health care for working class and poor people, high rates of obesity and high blood pressure and diabetes, increasing numbers of HIV/AIDS, the assault on the safety net of unemployment insurance for those who find themselves unemployed through no fault of their own, and the meanness towards immigrants will be national policy if the GOP wins the presidency. Bad news!
incredulous
August 19th, 2012
6:31 pm
@pride and joy, I think another question is how and why disaffected cultures lost their right to fail. It could be that an increasing number of people to “buy” into the industrial model that is applied as a way out of poverty. Constantly referring to race is overly simplistic.
incredulous
August 19th, 2012
6:33 pm
Sorry, I meant to type ” don’t ” buy into the industrial model that is applied.
Dr. Craig Spinks/ Georgians for Educational Excellence
August 19th, 2012
6:34 pm
John Barge’s call for truthfulness in educational data resonates even more powerfully with the release of these readjusted dropout figures.
Grad Coach
August 19th, 2012
6:47 pm
Wow! I don’t even know where to start. First, yes, I am a grad coach and have been for 7 years. I am very proud of the work I do. You shouldn’t lump all students into the same mold nor should you lump all Grad Coaches. I and the other coaches I know work very hard to help all students who need support. As for the comment about the seven hours, please know any work a coach does in the summer is off contract, we are paid the same as teachers. Second, a dropout isn’t just the individual who leaves school one day never to return, a dropout can be the person who has a family and needs to work so he/she gets a GED, or goes into youth challenge, or even the student who chooses to hold up a store at gun point is a dropout and counts against a school’s graduation rate; kind of ridiculous to hold anyone else responsible for that act, but being incarcerated counts as a dropout, as does a terminal illness, pregnancy and a multitude of other things. Or what about the student identified as a senior by the cohort method moves in midyear, or later, multiple credits behind with no possible way of graduating anywhere close to on time yet now counts against my school’s graduation rate; let’s just say the sending school is jumping for joy! I have also had custody battles where a child was removed from school or even taken out of the country and legally not required to provide the documentation I need to prove he/she is not a dropout. Third, once a child is enrolled in a school, that school has the sole responsibility of proving that when the student leaves they enroll in a new acceptably accredited institution, regardless of whether the move occurred after only attending 1 day or 1 month. In the case of such a short attendance span it never occurs to the parents to give this information. As an example, a 9th grader leaves in the 1st month of school and moves to a state that hasn’t started the new school year. The new school has no reason to request records, we know the student is in school somewhere but we have no documentation and often no valid contact info thus that student too counts against us.
I hope this doesn’t come off as a whine about not being able to do my job because that isn’t the case. I firmly believe that we can do a great deal, but we need to keep in mind that there are many things a school is held accountable for that is beyond our control.
Another Math Teacher
August 19th, 2012
6:48 pm
Old Physics Teacher : “This has been said over and over but you guys just don’t want to hear it. The more people graduate, the less value the degree becomes. ”
You are trying to convince the general public and politicians…I question your sanity. Next thing you know, you’ll be trying to use Math to convince them.
DD2
August 19th, 2012
6:57 pm
Rep. Lindsey,
For you to come on here and ask for suggestions of “how to untie the knot”, I believe that you are sincere in your efforts. I never blog are post on articles but I have felt the urge to share a few ideas I believe would start us (Georgia) in the right direction.
1. First and foremost I have been a classroom teacher for 20 years now. We must start with our profession and organizational pyramid. In the county in which I teach our school board is made up of 5 individuals, only one of which has any experience in education, and I believe only 2 of the 5 have a college degree. That would be like me being on a board that oversees surgeons at Piedmont Hospital. What does our board do? They take their job seriously and I believe they want to do what is right but the only vision or ideas they have is what is presented to them by the superintendent or principals. So let’s seriously look at a minimum requirement for school boards. Why not allow teachers to hold these positions in their own communities? We allow people from their own congressional or legislative districts to run for their respective offices. Classroom teachers would bring a much better vision to the table than people who have never been in the classroom.
2. In my classes every year I ask students about all the advances we have made since the 1950’s, after some great discussion of all the new technology that our world has witnessed in that time period in communications, transportation, manufacturing, and air and space travel, I ask about education. I have students to describe a classroom in the 1950’s and compare it to a classroom today. Basically the blackboard is now white, we use erasable markers instead of chalk, there is a computer on the teacher’s desk, and a few computer labs throughout the school. But basically we have not been very innovative with our educational system. No vision, because vision is not allowed under our current system.
3. We have teachers across the state that have no business in our classrooms, my students know which teachers in our school can’t teach, my colleagues know what teachers don’t do a good job, and I bet that is the same in schools across the state. If a teacher can keep up with all the paperwork they are now mandated to do, watch the waste of time videos from the state department of education on the new common core, keep their lesson plans updated, and show up to work on time…then they get another contract. I know teachers that purposefully do not give a student a failing grade so that they do not have to contact parent’s and deal with the paperwork required when a student is at risk. The documentation is ridiculous and a waste of time and discourages many teachers from actually holding their students to the minimum standard. Teacher evaluations could be done by fellow teachers from across the state that teach the same subjects. Teachers with the best AP and EOCT scores in their subject matter could evaluate a classroom teacher much better that a principal who has never taught the subject. Writing a lesson plan using the newest educational “speak” does not make a teacher effective.
4. LET TEACHERS TEACH. Do not have the state, county office, principals, and assistant principals dictate how and what a teacher does in their classroom. Let the teachers teach, the ones that know what they are doing and have a passion for their profession will not let their students down. Let their body of work be used to determine their effectiveness. But remember that our system is set up to fail in it’s present state. That leads me to #5
5. Our current “utopia” mindset that we can teach students of all learning abilities in a singular classroom in an 18 week course and get equal results is a disservice to ALL students. Our system of inclusion works for very few students and causes the more advance learners to suffer as time and attention is taken from them to help those that are struggling. In all aspects of life we separate people based on abilities. I understand the concept is honorable, however, we need to admit our mistake and move on. Our current system puts 60% of the resources into the lowest 20% of achievers, we are robbing the top 30% of our students because they cause no problems and have no deficiencies. We need to teach to the top.
6. So what do we do with the lowest 20% of learners that are at risk to drop out? We get hammered at the high school level with this all the time. But we must keep in mind that students that arrive at high school have already had 8 years of schooling. With that said MANY arrive with terrible reading and writing skills. They have been a part of a system that has made modifications for them since elementary school or early middle school, these modifications include extra time to complete assignments (sometimes even a week late), having tests read to them orally, computer software writing assistance, tests and quizzes modified so that they do not have to complete essay or short answer questions and all of their multiple choice questions are limited to two choices. This is a big knot. So what is the answer? Why do we have to be limited to the traditional school? If a student falls behind then we need to pull him/her aside at the time they start slipping. We should have alternative schools (not a negative insinuation here) within the same building that focus on reading, math and writing at the elementary schools. At the middle schools we need to really implement a move on when ready, some 8th graders are ready for high school classes, we should allow them to move on. For those students that are not ready they can continue with a curriculum and pace at their level. We can create a diploma track for those students that are behind when they reach the 9th grade AGE, they should be removed from our high school graduation rate data, because after all, shouldn’t we be judged on how we move students from freshman year to graduation when they enter our system at grade level reading, writing, and math skills?
7. We need to create an alternative diploma for students who at 9th grade AGE are reading and writing on 5th, 6th and 7th grade levels. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but these young people aren’t college level students. Educators have known this for years, we have talked about it for years, teachers know who these students are in their schools today. But we keep them in this system until they get so frustrated with failing classes that they DROP OUT. Then we (school) assume they transferred to another school. We know they didn’t, they are in the parking lot when school lets out, waiting on their friends who have not become so frustrated…yet.
In most instances, these young people have fallen through the cracks. The middle school doesn’t want 15 & 16 year olds in their schools. Middle schools are not designed for that, I understand, but high schools are not designed for 16, 17 and 18 year olds that read on the 6th grade level and can’t write an essay. Every teacher and administrator in my school has a college diploma. That is the case with all of our schools, you guys in the legislature, mostly have law degrees or at least a college diploma. So my question to you Rep. Lindsey is, why with all the college educated people in this area of educationo have we not figured anything out as of yet?
I will leave you with a perfect example of our failing system, a true story that took place just a few months ago. My son turned 15 and I took him to get his learners license. While he was filling out his paperwork for his test a former student of mine walked in with his mother. The mother and I had gone round and round the previous year about her son’s performance in my class. He did not pass, he was a special education student and mom wanted me to give him additional modifications and extra assignments to allow him to pass with a 70. It didn’t happen, I even told mom she was handcuffing here son already with the modifications she was having made for him. Nowhere in the”real world” would he receive such modifications. He had everything read aloud to him by another teacher. That day I assumed he was there to take his driving test since he was a year older than my son. My son was called back to take his test. A few minutes later this same young man was called and he entered the same room as my son to take his learners test also. Fifteen minutes later and my son walked out, excitingly said “I passed.” He came and sat next to me to wait for them to call him up for his picture. My former student walked out, mom said “did you pass?” He looked at her with the utter most look of disappointment and replied, “No, another 48.” She scolded him and said “what is wrong with you?” He replied, “I don’t understand a lot of the questions, why won’t they let you read it to me?”
That is a product of our education system in the 21st century.
An Observer
August 19th, 2012
7:10 pm
Bottom line after many years of data and trying is that we are not going to get everyone to graduate from high school unless we give diplomas away. The high school graduation rate is what it is for various reasons and will stay where it is. It is time to accept facts. The sun rises in the east and many students are not interested in a high school graduation. Kids are not made with cookie cutters and we should not try and cannot succeed at making them all alike.
Pride and Joy
August 19th, 2012
7:20 pm
An observer says we should just accept that some kids won’t graduate.
Observer, that may be true but why are all of them in Georgia? GA is rock bottom.
Do you really think that the physical land — the red clay in GA- has some sort of power to undereducate children?
If the stats were the same for all states, you might have a valid point but high school drop out rates are the lowest of the low in GA and always have been.
Why is that?
It surely cannot be explained by invisible lines on a map.
td
August 19th, 2012
7:21 pm
Representative Edward Lindsey, Maureen or Dr. Barge,
Do any of you have the numbers for graduates within 5 years and GED grads within 5 years? This would give the readers a truer reality of what is actually going on.
Ole Guy
August 19th, 2012
7:27 pm
Well said, DAWG. In “providing” these kids a justification for failure, we are, in both essence and in reality, guaranteeing failure. Such well-intentioned, yet extremely misinformed (and very stupid) tags remains “at risk”. Hells bells, from the moment we punch out of our mommas’ systems, we’re all “at risk”. Some…perhaps many…are fortunate to have parents who fully understand that their parental duty is to mitigate that “risk” factor. When it comes to having a “tough” time in school, there is simply no alternative from which to choose…”Son, you WILL not only pass, but pass with flying colors”…there simply is no other alternative.
These kids, though they may not enjoy the “positive influences” on the home front, have, through this “at risk” business, feel that they have justification for less-than optimal performance at school. By blaming it all on the “at risk” demeon, over which they have absolutely no control, they simply choose to resort to the path of least resistance…and the school systems, through their “poor kid, lets’ label him at risk” mentality, only strengthen the kid’s propensity to fail; to give up and blame it all on influences beyond his control. This very same mentality carries into adulthood; into a social mindset which says “because I’m officialy at risk, I can (and will) rely, perpetually, on uncle sugar’s largess.
If the gd parents won’t step up to the plate of parental responsibility, the schools can either practice what they preach…”we care”…and take control of the kid’s academic future or cut em’loose. The only thing these schools can do is demand…that’s DEMAND academic performance, not the watered-down version we’ve seen for far too long.
Hillbilly D
August 19th, 2012
7:33 pm
Do any of you have the numbers for graduates within 5 years and GED grads within 5 years? This would give the readers a truer reality of what is actually going on.
I’ve asked that question before and nobody has ever answered it, that I have seen.
I’ve also wondered what happens to a family who up and moves to another state, with kids in high school. How are they counted and how could you even keep up with that?
BehindEnemyLines
August 19th, 2012
8:07 pm
My thanks to “crankee-yankee ” for pointing out the failure of some posters to consider the man-hours used in the false calculation on the investigative anecdote. My one complaint with his/her post is that it didn’t come sooner, I had to sort through a lot of chaff to see if anyone other than me caught that
dropit
August 19th, 2012
8:11 pm
real dropout #s–much higher than is being reported. Ga is gaming the system again with phony reports to get federal money–book it.
Dr. Monica Henson
August 19th, 2012
8:15 pm
Hillbilly D, when a family moves to another state, the receiving school sends a transcript request to the most recent school attended. The transcript request is the documentation needed by the GA school to code the student as a transfer to another state. The same thing happens when a family moves to another district in-state, decides to homeschool, or transfers their child to private school. Transfers can be coded as such. Leaving to get a GED or just withdrawing with no request for a transcript from an accepting new school must be coded as a dropout.
Dr. Monica Henson
August 19th, 2012
8:18 pm
Ron F., no offense taken, and I’d be glad to talk to you as we grow. The broad brush I use to paint public high schools is with is borne of two decades of experience in district public schools in Georgia, North Carolina, Massachusetts, Connecticut, and Florida, along with a hellacious load of research. I don’t believe that the system will ever be reformed from within–that’s one of the reasons why I’m leading PAGA. I believe that if we can demonstrate that reform is possible, on a large scale, replicating in our statewide charter district as closely as we can the conditions faced by brick-and-mortar traditional districts (mobility of students, special education, high numbers of Title I and other at-risk kids, and open enrollment to ALL, year-round), then the conversation will change, and change dramatically. That is our goal–to change the game.
Mikey D.
August 19th, 2012
8:32 pm
@Rep Lindsey,
Your willingness to listen is commendable.
First, you admit that trust of you and your colleagues is tenuous. That is true, probably of citizens all over the state. But certainly you cannot be ignorant of the reasons for educators’ mistrust, can you? After all, in an earlier post you admitted that you and your colleagues have broken Georgia law for 25 years by failing to fund QBE at the legally required level. On top of that, we are cramming 35-40 students in classes, and then demanding excellence from those teachers. If we are going to say that these conditions are out of anyone’s control, could we at least occupy reality and admit that these students-per-class levels make it nearly impossible to meet the expectations placed upon us?
Secondly, you claim to understand that available funds are limited but then engage in some pretty transparent political games by publicly chastising Superintendent Barge for pointing out the obvious, that we don’t have an extra pot of money laying around to create yet another state agency. Your actions here don’t really match your words, do they?
Finally, you’ve remained curiously silent while your legislative colleagues have turned teachers into the enemy. Given your leadership position, it would go a long way toward building your credibility if, on the first day of the next legislative session, you stood before the full House and publicly thanked the teachers of the state for their hard work and encouraged all of your fellow legislators to commit to improving the public education system. Yeah, that’d be nice, but I’ll not hold my breath, ok?
Another comment
August 19th, 2012
8:48 pm
Mr. Lindsay, I was recruited out of engineering grad school by a prominent member of the Piedmont Driving Club to work for his construction firm. That was 29 years ago they recruited outside of Georgia to find top engineers. When I worked with other engineers and architects who like myself had either grown up or been educated up north we always discussed the lack of vocational educational for the trades in Georgia. As the union construction jobs disappeared in Atlanta literally overnight, so did the training grounds for anyone trying to break into the trades. Then the biggest fiasco of all the Georgia one size fits all college prep track in high school. Ridiculous! !!!! That along with a crazy Ga constitution that limits the number school districts to 158? Or what ever the number was. Mega size districts just don’t work. We need districts to be no larger than 1-2 high schools with their feeder schools. The Supt. then get paid around $150k their are no layers of administration, the principals of each school is the next. School boards should be elected volunteer positions not paid. 2 to 3 school districts can share a votech school that juniors and seniors on a general diploma track can go to every afternoon. At the end they can have the equivalent of a 1 year tech diploma.
Ron F.
August 19th, 2012
8:52 pm
“The broad brush I use to paint public high schools is with is borne of two decades of experience in district public schools in Georgia, North Carolina, Massachusetts, Connecticut, and Florida, along with a hellacious load of research”
Dr. Henson: I too have twenty plus years, many of them where I am now in a room full of struggling high school students. I truly believe that while your efforts are earnest and needed, I also believe we must support those working within the system to do the best they can with what we have. Graduation numbers are like playing “pin the tail on the donkey” these days, and as was asked above, noone seems to calculate how many make it out in five years. Give us credit where credit is due, and you’ll likely see more cooperation from us. We’re working as hard as you are, just from a different angle. A tunnel is best built by working from both ends, and we truly need to help each other, not try to outdo each other. I commend your efforts, by the way.
Gasp! Clutch the pearls!
August 19th, 2012
8:53 pm
I seem to recall dire warnings back when Georgia’s Superintendent of Education proposed tracking school graduation rates and test scores for the purpose of school funding and teacher evaluations. At that time, Texas was caught fudging the dropout numbers by saying that a student had moved out of the district. Or holding students back a year in a particular class so that they wouldn’t be picked up on a standardized test as poorly performing. Once an investigation determined that the students that had “moved” were never enrolled in any other school, it became clear that most of the students who “moved” had actually dropped out.
How many other LOSER ideas can we import from Florida and Texas? Vouchers anyone?
Dr. Monica Henson
August 19th, 2012
9:00 pm
Ron F, I commend your efforts as well. It’s not that I don’t want to help those working within the system–believe me, I’ve tried to do that from within the system. I don’t want to “outdo” the system–I want to get the attention of the system so that the power brokers who make the system decisions will start looking at how to do things in the system differently. I believe that if it can be demonstrated that it’s possible to provide the neediest kids AND the brightest achievers with the same outstanding teachers, and both will flourish, then districts will want to know how it is done. It’s not enough to think outside the box–we are creating our own box, and everything we are doing is with an eye to how it could be replicated at scale in a traditional public school district. That’s the real promise of a charter school, and we are going to fulfill it. Every single teacher I’ve hired has, like me, worked for years in public school systems and become frustrated with the ineffectiveness and inefficiency of the bureaucracy.
JustMe
August 19th, 2012
10:22 pm
I wonder what percentage of dropouts failed all or most of the reading and math CRCTs from elementary school on?
Ron F.
August 19th, 2012
10:22 pm
Dr. Spinks: You ever noticed that every time they “readjust” something, it’s always worse and “the sky is falling, the sky is falling!!” I’ve always heard you can torture numbers and they’ll say anything you want.
I’ve had a few fifth year seniors and a few beyond that to work with over the years, and even if they finish and earn a diploma, they’re still a dropout because they didn’t finish with their cohort. I don’t care if it takes until they’re twenty, if they can earn it and have it in their hands, they count to me!
Ron F.
August 19th, 2012
10:28 pm
“I want to get the attention of the system so that the power brokers who make the system decisions will start looking at how to do things in the system differently.”
Good luck with that, Dr. Henson!! I hope they’ll listen to you better than they listen to us. All we get is fingers in the years as they yell “LALALALALA”… You’ll have to hit them with the box to get their attention!
Dekalbite@Rep. Lindsey
August 19th, 2012
10:30 pm
Start with the premise that every child deserves:
1. A safe and clean learning environment
2. A highly qualified teacher in a reasonably sized classroom
3. Abundant access to science and technology equipment
Ensure this is happening, and then fund all of the other educational initiatives, training, administrators, programs, community and parent outreach, etc. with what’s left over because the three components listed above are what really work for students. If you can provide those three components listed above, you will attract highly qualified and motivated teachers which will greatly reduce your need (and cost) for excess administrative and support personnel.
Barnes got many things wrong in his education plan, but one area he got right was class size reform. Barnes reduced class size limits and basically let the superintendents figure out how to get to those smaller class sizes – no excuses or exceptions or waivers. Superintendents and administrators were most unhappy, but this was a non negotiable. DeKalb County, arguably the most top heavy system in Georgia, actually saw a decrease in non teaching employees as the superintendent (then Johnny Brown) and the Board of Education were forced to pare down the bureaucratic ranks in order to boost the classroom teaching ranks. That’s the ONLY time in over 40 years in DeKalb that I saw the Central Office shrink. What a difference it made to students and teachers.
There are no shortcuts to teaching and learning. The more disadvantaged the student, the more he/she needs a highly qualified and motivated teacher and the more class size matters to him/her. We live in a world where the jobs of the future depend on STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, Mathematics) skills. If we don’t get this right, we are destined to be a second rate economy.
bootney farnsworth
August 19th, 2012
10:56 pm
@ Ron
I’m really having a hard time taking some of this seriously. possibly due to this sounding so much like the Tricoli disaster at GPC (he came in talking about I really want to hear from you, made promises, and proceed to bankrupt the school), but mostly due to a lack of anything resembling a sincere gesture on the legislature’s part.
we don’t have raises, we don’t have a watchdog, we don’t have a seat at the table -any table-when the legislators start yapping ….and lets not forget our dear friend Fran Millar.
show me SOMETHING. after years of abuse, I need proof of change. otherwise we’re just abused women wanting to believe he really has changed.
Ron F.
August 19th, 2012
11:23 pm
“show me SOMETHING. after years of abuse, I need proof of change. otherwise we’re just abused women wanting to believe he really has changed.”
Not the metaphor I would have chosen, perhaps for its stark, but very realistic truth, but you speak right to the heart of it. We get platitudes, double-talk, and smoke and mirrors routines until it’s all just a blur of noise and gestures. And that’s exactly what they, in general with a few noteworthy exceptions, want. They hope the truth will be lost in the 24 hour news cycle, and generally that happens. I remember sitting, mouth hanging open, when our super showed us the numbers I posted earlier. Once you see them in black and white, you can’t help but pull off the blinders and ask WTF? As I’ve posted often on other threads, this is exactly why I don’t trust their enthusiasm for the charter commission amendment. If they’re lying to us, then what aren’t they telling the charter folks? And I won’t even start on Fran…
Have a good night and a good week with the kiddies!
AUBOB01
August 19th, 2012
11:25 pm
I think any “student” who drops out without medical or family hardship, should pay back the State for their previous years of education. It can be paid either through wage garnishments or community service!
mountain man
August 20th, 2012
6:32 am
Dr. Monica Henson – “If the American public school system truly valued education, we’d make high school a place where students could and would do anything to stay and complete.”
If the American STUDENTS truly valued education, then THEY would do anything to stay and complete.
There, I fixed your sentence. You really should get new glasses.
mountain man
August 20th, 2012
6:35 am
“Really? One-third of the population of this country aged 16-18 just doesn’t give a damn?”
That is correct. They care more about skipping school, or being in a gang, or committing crimes, or, probably the most common – creating or having babies. They also worry that if the get an education they will be accused of “acting too white”.
mountain man
August 20th, 2012
6:36 am
“Really? One-third of the population of this country aged 16-18 just doesn’t give a damn?”
And why should they care about an education when studies show a lot of these inner-city kids don’t think they will even be ALIVE past their 21st birthday! How do you convince them that education is a good thing?
Howard Finkelstein
August 20th, 2012
6:39 am
Can we fix it? NO. It cannot be fixed, repaired etc. Its just a fact of life that some students drop out for a nyriad of reasons. Lets focus on helping students who remain in school
Ya cant save everyone.
Mitch
August 20th, 2012
6:39 am
These rates are based on 4 years of high school. If you track the numbers for a diploma to age 25, you will find the rate is close to 90 percent, due to the GED program.
catlady
August 20th, 2012
6:44 am
I don’t think this news is a blinding flash for most educators. We knew the numbers were inaccurate, no matter how our schools were bragging about them, because we knew the kids that “disappeared” were still around.
catlady
August 20th, 2012
6:48 am
Ms. Downey, again, I call on the AJC investigative team to find out about and expose the RTI “scam” that Georgia embraced several years ago.
Pride and Joy
August 20th, 2012
6:56 am
To Moutain Man
YOu asked “How do you convince them that education is a good thing?”You haul their butts to a prison for a visit. You show them all the men who are far beyond the age of 21 and rotting in jail. You let the inmates tell them what life is like in there and then do the same at the homeless shelters.
teacher&mom
August 20th, 2012
7:08 am
@Dr.Monica Henson: Will your online charter school diploma be accepted by all branches of the military? I’ve worked for an accredited online charter in the past and the only branch that would accept the diploma was the Army.
Judy
August 20th, 2012
7:11 am
Amazing, you are so focused on not funding charter schools. Well, for years district run schools have been fully funded and it has now been exposed (district leaders already knew this) that our drop out rate is one of the worst in the country. Oh, it is about the money – not the students. Let parents and students make the CHOICE! I would love to see the break down of non graduates per school district.
Another view
August 20th, 2012
7:32 am
Poverty + Low Graduation Rates = Georgia HS Cheating Scandal.
td
August 20th, 2012
8:28 am
Anything to cover up the real news in how Obama has actually cut medicare and how Dems are actually telling our veterans that they are “gutless”.
Those are REAL stories Jim.
Dekalbite
August 20th, 2012
8:28 am
Start with the premise that every child deserves:
1. A safe and clean learning environment
2. A highly qualified teacher in a reasonably sized classroom
3. Abundant access to science and technology equipment
Ensure this is happening, and then fund all of the other educational initiatives, training, administrators, programs, community and parent outreach, etc. with what’s left over because the three components listed above are what really work for students. If you can provide those three components listed above, you will attract highly qualified and motivated teachers which will greatly reduce your need (and cost) for excess administrative and support personnel.
Barnes got many things wrong in his education plan, but one area he got right was class size reform. Barnes reduced class size limits and basically let the superintendents figure out how to get to those smaller class sizes – no excuses or exceptions or waivers. Superintendents and administrators were most unhappy, but this was a non negotiable. DeKalb County, arguably the most top heavy system in Georgia, actually saw a decrease in non teaching employees as the superintendent (then Johnny Brown) and the Board of Education were forced to pare down the bureaucratic ranks in order to boost the classroom teaching ranks. That’s the ONLY time in over 40 years in DeKalb that I saw the Central Office shrink. What a difference it made to students and teachers.
There are no shortcuts to teaching and learning. The more disadvantaged the student, the more he/she needs a highly qualified and motivated teacher and the more class size matters to him/her. We live in a world where the jobs of the future depend on STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, Mathematics) skills. If we don’t get this right, we are destined to be a second rate economy.
td
August 20th, 2012
8:28 am
Wrong blog. Sorry
Whirled Peas
August 20th, 2012
8:32 am
Our school system is broken and cannot be fixed by repairing this or that. The best way to fix the system is to introduce competition. Privatize the schools, give the kids vouchers to attend the best school they can, and let the parents make the decision where their kids go to school. Good schools will thrive and bad schools will wither and die. Good teachers will be paid more and bad teachers will be looking for other jobs. That is the way it should be.
Dr. John Trotter
August 20th, 2012
8:44 am
Let’s see now. Clayton’s graduation rate is really 51.5% Hmm. And this school board, by a vote of 6 to 3, just extended Edmond Heatley’s contract for one more year. Ha! What planet is Mary Baker and Pam Adamson and Alieka Anderson and the others living on? This man should have been gone from this school system years ago. He should never have been hired. I have written extensively about this clown of a superintendent, Edmond Heatley.
http://www.georgiateachersspeakout.com
JoJO
August 20th, 2012
9:11 am
The answer plain and simple: Career & Technical Education at the high school level!
HoneyFern School
August 20th, 2012
9:51 am
Excellent point, Maureen, about how the needs of companies have changed, but you back off and don’t point out that schools are not changing to address it. That is an unfortunate lack of critical attention.
Also not addressed? The 40% of students in GA that require remedial classes in college when they do graduate.
Tell the whole story; it’s not just a numbers game. There are kids behind that stats, and we are failing them.
mountain man
August 20th, 2012
12:22 pm
“If you track the numbers for a diploma to age 25, you will find the rate is close to 90 percent, due to the GED program.”
Once again, GED’s are not “graduating”. And I still do not believe the 90% statistic.
mountain man
August 20th, 2012
12:25 pm
Dekalbite – “Start with the premise that every child deserves:
1. A safe and clean learning environment
2. A highly qualified teacher in a reasonably sized classroom
3. Abundant access to science and technology equipment”
You could have all these and you would still have the same drop-out rate. You have not addressed the STUDENT. The only one that even comes close to tackling an issue is the SAFE part – by increasing discipline.
Dekalbite@mountain man
August 20th, 2012
2:40 pm
“The only one that even comes close to tackling an issue is the SAFE part – by increasing discipline.”
Discipline is naturally an enormous part of a safe and clean learning environment. BTW – teachers have no control over any of these components. These are the components that the school system administrators and support personnel are supposedly paid to ensure students and teachers have.
“You could have all these and you would still have the same drop-out rate. You have not addressed the STUDENT.”
By STUDENT, do you really mean the parents? Because IMHO – teachers cannot change parents or the home life that students are raised in. We are not politicians, psychologists, or social workers. We should be able to do what we are paid to do – teach. At the very least if we and our students are assured a safe and clean environment with a reasonable classroom size and abundant access to science and technology, we have a much greater chance of TEACHING and students LEARNING rather than if we are asked to be surrogate parents and “culture of the day” deliverers.
If you do not believe any of these three components will help students, then the converse is…..
Students do NOT deserve:
1. A safe and clean learning environment
2. A highly qualified teacher in a reasonably sized classroom
3. Abundant access to science and technology equipment
Now how many highly qualified teachers want to teach in:
1. An unsafe and dirty learning environment
2. Classes with huge numbers of students (35 to 40)
3. No access to science and technology equipment
Following your conclusion to its logical end, why not divide the students into the teachable and non teachable groups in Kindergarten and send the non teachables home to save us taxpayers a lot of money?
Not all students will be successful even with these three most important components, and unfortunately the expectation of the day is that every child is successful in school. However, more students will be successful if they have what they need in the classroom.
Dekalbite@mountain man
August 20th, 2012
2:52 pm
“The only one that even comes close to tackling an issue is the SAFE part – by increasing discipline.”
Discipline is naturally an enormous part of a safe and clean learning environment. BTW – teachers have no control over any of these components. These are the components that the school system administrators and support personnel are supposedly paid to ensure students and teachers have.
“You could have all these and you would still have the same drop-out rate. You have not addressed the STUDENT.”
By STUDENT, do you really mean the parents? Because IMHO – teachers cannot change parents or the home life that students are raised in. We are not politicians, psychologists, preachers, or social workers. We are teachers and should be expected to do what we are paid to do – teach. At the very least if we and our students are assured a safe and clean environment with a reasonable classroom size and abundant access to science and technology, we have a much greater chance of TEACHING and students LEARNING rather than if we are asked to be surrogate parents and “culture of the day” deliverers.
If you do not believe any of these three components will help students, then the converse is…..
Students do NOT deserve:
1. A safe and clean learning environment
2. A highly qualified teacher in a reasonably sized classroom
3. Abundant access to science and technology equipment
Now how many highly qualified teachers want to teach in:
1. An unsafe and dirty learning environment
2. Classes with huge numbers of students (35 to 40)
3. No access to science and technology equipment
If you are a parent, is a dirty, unsafe bare bones environment with a not very well educated teacher in a classroom of 38 other students what you want for your child?
Following your conclusion to its logical end, why not divide the students into the teachable and non teachable groups in Kindergarten and send the non teachables home to save us taxpayers a lot of money?
Not all students will be successful even with these three most important components, and unfortunately the expectation of the day is that every child is successful in school. However, more students will be successful if they have what they need in the classroom, and these three components are needs not wants for students.
Dekalbite@mountain man
August 20th, 2012
2:54 pm
Sorry for the double post. Being caught in the filter for some reason.
Dr. Monica Henson
August 20th, 2012
2:59 pm
mountain man posted, “…why should they care about an education when studies show a lot of these inner-city kids don’t think they will even be ALIVE past their 21st birthday! How do you convince them that education is a good thing?”
When needy schools warehouse kids year after year in shoddy, depressing buildings, put them through an assembly line that includes several low-quality teachers over the years, even series of long-terms subs in lieu of an actual certified teacher, with drill-and-kill instruction, why on earth WOULD they value education? This may be a news flash to a lot of people, but when kids spend year upon year getting their time wasted hour after hour, they become disengaged way before high school.
I’ve yet to see a kindergartener show up for the first day of school saying, “I want to raise Cain and make my teacher angry every day. I want to keep my classmates from learning. I’ll lay my head on my desk and sleep through my classes.”
We have beautiful, precious, bright-eyed children starting kindergarten every year all over this country, and a substantial percentage of them, within their first three to four years of public schooling, will learn the sad and terrible truth: that their school is not a happy place for everyone, that a good number of their teachers are not very good at what they do, that some of their teachers don’t really like children that much, that some kids are lucky and get put in the “good” classes with the best teachers, and that the people who run their schools don’t really care about whether or not they learn, as long as the lucky kids do.
If I had been treated that way in school, I sure as hell might not have made it all the way to graduation. I was one of the lucky kids who was always put in the “top” track of classes, and I was still bored most of the time and felt that high school was something to be endured.
Dr. Monica Henson
August 20th, 2012
3:04 pm
teacher&mom: Our eCourses curriculum is AdvancEd-accredited, MSA-accredited, and NCAA-approved, so there is no reason for the military branches to treat us as anything other than a top-tier high school. If memory serves me correctly, the U.S. Dept. of Education and Dept. of Defense issued an announcement within the past year that state-approved virtual high schools would be treated just like brick-and-mortar public high schools.
Mountain Man
August 20th, 2012
4:33 pm
“We have beautiful, precious, bright-eyed children starting kindergarten every year all over this country,”
Maybe… but you also have hungry children, and you have children who are NOT at school since their parent (mother) is too lazy to get them up for the bus.
Dr. Monica Henson
August 20th, 2012
10:19 pm
Mountain Man: the hungry children and the ones whose mothers are too lazy to do what should be done for them are the primary reason why I do what I do. If they don’t have an advocate at school, which for many of them should be the safest place they can be, then we as a society have failed the most vulnerable members of our population. That’s not liberal BS, it’s not educational jargon–it’s the simple truth, and that’s the sad case for many kids.
crankee-yankee
August 20th, 2012
10:39 pm
Judy
August 20th, 2012
7:11 am
In the 24 years I have been teaching in GA, QBE has NEVER been fully funded. A fact Rep. Lindsey admits to on August 19th, 2012 @ 3:16 pm. Know your facts.
MsFix_IT
August 20th, 2012
11:00 pm
Dr. Henson,
I obtained my GED and last year I made over 80K. I attended College on scholarship. So I really take offense to your comments about students that leave High School and receive a GED. Unfortunately,
most High School Students that graduate in GA cannot pass the GED test. Again, we must create an educational system that bridges the gaps between Public and Private education. We have to bring back vocational education and teach children how to think, as well as follow directions.
I pay school taxes even though I don’t have any children. I know it is part of my duty as a citizen to help ensure our kids are able to thrive.
Dr. Monica Henson
August 20th, 2012
11:24 pm
MsFIX_IT, I didn’t mean any offense to anyone who has earned a GED, and it definitely has a place in the educational structure. The truth is, however, that you are an exception to the average GED holder in the extent of your success. The statistics are what they are. There are also people who drop out of high school and don’t get any credential at all, yet become very successful–they are also exceptions and are few & far between compared to many, if not most people who drop out and then don’t build substantial earning power over their lifetimes.
I admire you greatly for having the perseverance to further your education, and I have no doubt that you will continue to be successful!
Dr. Monica Henson
August 20th, 2012
11:26 pm
I have a very good friend who quit high school at age 17, back in the 1970s, apprenticed himself to a local business owner who didn’t have any sons, and eventually bought the business and operated it very successfully for 25 years. Nowadays, it’s a lot harder for people who quit high school to be able to find a job that will provide them with enough to support themselves and a family. It’s especially hard for teenaged girls who become mothers before they finish their educations.
MsFix_IT
August 21st, 2012
1:57 am
Dr. Henson,
Instead of trying to just prove our points; how are we going to make this situation better for today’s students? Our kids are bright and have more of an ability to obtain an education with the technological advances of today. We are missing the keys to them thriving in school or in a learning environment.We really have to accept that we need to address the needs of industry and build vocational education. I have several trades and college but, my trades have allowed me to make more money, than my college education.
Now, the pragmatic solution is to have internships at the Jr. High and Freshman High School level. Being able to apply what you learn to the workplace will give a child focus. I experienced this when working in a small grocery store at the age of 10. Being able to count change back to a customer is basic math applied. We have to find a way to make instruction that is within the application of work and that would give the lesson functionality. I am not a teacher, I am a Grandparent, but I am concerned that all children receive an education.
But the real question is; what is a true education? Is it really measured by test scores or living well?
Dr. Henson, you write about teenage girls becoming mothers, how do we deal with a society that gives men a pass on being accountable and responsible? In every society Women are still second class citizens. I work in the Information Technology sector and I am basically the lone female. I still am require to be three times as good a man and to receive less pay. Women are raped into submission in our communities or their self esteem is damaged by the encyclical patterns of not having good male role models. We have male predators that molest young girls and then the next thing you know the young woman is pregnant, scared and ashamed. How do we battle this cultural norm?
What we need to do is help make our students responsible for there education. We need to foster an environment that makes learning fun and engaging. We need to model our system after schools that have more success and emulate what is good for our children. Everything a child needs to learn to graduate High School should be complete by 9th Grade. The last three years the students need to be learning a trade or be fast tracked for a College education in a field inwhich they have excelled. It has worked in Germany, South America and other countries. Because we, Americans look to a few to excel and become great thinkers or inventors, we have left the public school system for the commoners and serfs. We need to teach our kids how to first; follow directions; second; the application of knowledge and third, how to think and be intutive to the situations around them.
This is how people have risen out of poverty; they had a vision of something greater than themselves.
Dr. Monica Henson
August 21st, 2012
8:53 am
MsFIX_IT, you make such tremendous points! I am in complete agreement with the idea of career & trade exploration (real, substantive, meaningful experiences) starting in junior high school and extending all throughout high school. Not every student needs to spend four years in high school. The education establishment has for decades emphasized the supposed value of academics over vocational education, as though choosing a trade is somehow “lesser” than earning a university degree. Economic reality is that many people who go into vocations requiring practical preparation fare much better on the earnings scale than say, teachers, who must earn a bachelor’s degree at minimum. Academics at the middle and high school grades need to be relevant and meaningful to all students, not just the college-bound. The American public high school as a whole is staggeringly irrelevant to millions of kids. Notable exceptions in Georgia include the College & Career Academies, which are partnerships among entire communities with local employers, technical colleges, and district high schools.
I don’t know the answer to the cultural issue of disempowerment of women. I do know that the girls I have known personally who became mothers too early have largely gone on to get at least some college after they saw the economic reality facing themselves and their kids, unless they were fortunate enough to have a family that owns its own business and can employ them and help them with child care. It’s a tough situation, and it impacts females far more heavily than it does males. Having a baby when you’re a teenager, without some kind of support and help, is like jumping off the economic cliff for most girls.
Dr. Monica Henson
August 21st, 2012
8:57 am
From MsFIX_IT: “We need to teach our kids how to first; follow directions; second; the application of knowledge and third, how to think and be intutive to the situations around them. This is how people have risen out of poverty; they had a vision of something greater than themselves.”
This sentiment permeates the Magic Johnson Foundation and is one of the greatest benefits that Provost Academy Georgia will bring to our students in the cities where we open our Magic Johnson Bridgescape learning centers. Magic Johnson Enterprises has a wonderful employability inventory that our kids will be able to take in order to see the attributes that all employers look for. MJE will work with our students to customize their workforce readiness preparation, such as cultivating relationships with local employers to provide our kids with job shadows, internships, and mentoring. These experiences will not only enrich our students’ educations, but it will show them the light at the end of the academic preparation tunnel.
Million Book Read
August 21st, 2012
4:15 pm
This is a disturbing news! The education system has to be changed!
Ron F.
August 21st, 2012
5:13 pm
“The American public high school as a whole is staggeringly irrelevant to millions of kids.”
The reality is, at one time we had vocational high schools for the kids who weren’t college bound, with graduation requirements that reflected that choice. It’s been a reality since the dawn of the public school system that high school wasn’t for everyone. After 1983 and that god-awful “A Nation at Risk”, we panicked and the fearmongers went nuts. The currriculum designers and book companies jumped up and offered alllllllll manner of foolishness to “fix” the problems. They made a lot of money, and we as a society adopted the notion that we weren’t keeping up with the Japanese. Since then, we’ve added more and more to try to “increase rigor”, and where are we? That’s precisely why I am dubious about ANY “we can fix this and do it quickly” method out there. Not to say that yours isn’t an important part of what we can do, but how many times are we going to redesign the wheel and how much money is it going to take to get people to realize school isn’t relevant to many because all we did was what the politicians and citizens said we had to do? Schools didn’t just decide to run the bus into the ditch; schools are what they are precisely because we did what we were told to do.
The school system didn’t create this mess, society and those it deemed worthy of decision-making power did. While I think you genuninely are trying to do something about that, and while I respect your zeal for what you are doing, it’s hard to give a lot of support when you keep blaming us for the problems so your “solution” can look better. Brag about what you’re doing: it sounds like you may be on to something. But every time you trash us in the public system to try to make your system look better, it just isn’t helping score points with a voting bloc you really need to have on your side for this amendment to pass in November.
MsFix_IT
August 22nd, 2012
1:29 am
Dr. Henson,
Please contact me, I would love to help. ML_Cox46@comcast.net. We have to work together for our children.