War of words escalates in charter school amendment fray between Barge and GOP leadership

There is no need for a constitutional amendment to appoint a group of individuals to start more charters in Georgia. The state already has the authority to do this through existing mechanisms. The charters we have do not represent an improved educational option. In Georgia charters do not outperform the typical school counterparts. Why divert funds to organizations that do not have sufficient oversight, can avoid accountability, and do not perform better than the schools we already have? I am a Republican, but there is something other than policy and educational improvement at work in the GOP’s agenda here.

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The state constitution is the wrong place to define responsibilities for educating our children.
The constitution provides a framework within which our elected officials craft laws and regulations that add order to our way of life. Using the constitution as an alternative to legislative action only invites endless legal proceedings, turning what should be positive cooperation into unnecessary competition.
As the legal proceedings ensue, “attorney full-employment” practices kick in and the taxpayer gets to pay for both sides of an argument that never should have occurred. We taxpayers (at least this one) should expect our elected officials to lead, and quit acting like school children arguing over who got the biggest piece of the pie or who gets to be boss.
If there is a problem with education – we should demand that the educators fix it. Or, replace them. Simply adding another element of oversight will quickly turn into over-management. The students lose, the parents lose, and the taxpayers get hosed.
As concerned citizens we should evaluate the Boards of Education and make sure we vote for people that will lead education forward. Vote YES for quality education; Vote NO for constitutional intervention.

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Boo, hiss! And hurray for Dr. Barge!

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Mitchel – age 24? are you serious? why not look at 64? that way, 40% of them are dead, so it looks like we have a graduation rate of 100%! Mr. Lindsey is right on all counts. What we have now is not working – charters aren’t the full answer, but they are a start. Charters represent competition, an alternative – if they don’t work, shut them down – if they work better than the public school, shut the public school down.

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“As one of your avid readers,”

And now Ed Lindsey admits he does not have any concern for regular classroom teachers, as they REPEATEDLY reported on this very blog that they had contacted him by email, and there was no response.

Why don’t you come on here Ed, and explain why:

-a representative of the “law and order” and “personal responsibility” party hasn’t proposed a SINGLE initiative that would support the classroom teacher in matters of discipline?

How can anyone call you anything BUT a hypocrite if you spout “rule of law” and “personal responsibility” but don’t empower teachers to hold students accountable for either one of them?

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this exchange is both interesting and enlightening. The current educreaucracy wants to maintain it’s control over the money, and has to be forced to give up this control. local school systems are threatened by charter schools, and thus often reject them, so as to keep the money that would flow to these schools.

This taxpayer and parent appreciates Rep Lindsey and the others in our govt who want to give students and their parents effective choices, that offer the potential to better the lives of these kids and make our country a better place, rather than forcing them to stay in the current quagmire of low expectations that some of our local public schools have become.

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@Halldawg:

I am an avid opponent of this amendment for many reasons. However, your information is not completely accurate. Charter schools admit students via a lottery. They have no say in who they admit.

However, there are many reasons to be against state-controlled charter schools:

1. They will be approved by a NON-ELECTED panel of appointed bureaucrats. This translates to a fact that local taxpayers will have absolutely ZERO control of any of their tax dollars funneled to these charter schools. The only taxpayers that may have limited control are those that have children in attendance. With a locally approved charter school, you have an elected representative acting as oversight for your tax dollars.

2. Charter schools aren’t required to operate under the same restrictions and control as our neighborhood public schools. For whatever reason, people can’t seem to realize that this might be one of the issues causing problems in our schools. If we waive the rules for charter schools, why aren’t we waiving them for all public schools?

3. I’m still not sold on the idea of “for-profit” corporations in the education business. While parent-managed and operated charters are certainly possible, the greater likelihood is that you will be seeing for-profit charters. If you thought the APS cheating scandal was bad, imagine the potential for scandal when a company has to put up numbers to remain financially viable.

4. The research just doesn’t show that charter schools statistically do any better than public schools. Are there stellar charter schools? Absolutely. Is the potential there? Absolutely. The same principle is there with regular local schools too. However, current research suggest charter schools on average perform about the same or worse than their local neighborhood schools.

5. Going back to the point I touched on in #1, this really is about local government and control of educational funding. I like the fact that I can call up my local school board representative and discuss issues with them. If I disagree with them, I have the opportunity to remove them from the board through a LOCAL election process. This disappears with an appointed commission that will serve at the will of the governor.

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I am just flabbergasted that our state Republicans want to bring control up to the state level from the local level. Doesn’t that go against everything they believe in? Thats why its suspect to me. I hope this gets voted down in November.

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Rep. Lindsey is trying to muddy the waters and minimize the damage created by Barge’s position.

If the amendment is defeated in Nov., I wonder what mischief Lindsey, Morgan, Rogers, and Jones will hatch next?

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Suppose you have a school which has been deemed a failure by a large group of local parents. These parents complete the process of petitioning for this new state charter commission to intervene and open a charter school near the existing school. Let’s say 15% of the students from the original school choose to transfer to the charter school and subsequently 15% of the funding from the original school is now transferred to operate the new charter school. Some would argue that the original school would become 15% cheaper to operate. The reality is that this isn’t how overhead and operating costs work. The original school cannot simply cut 15% of the school nurse or 15% of the school guidance counselor. The number of rooms in the existing school doesn’t magically decrease by 15% so it costs the same amount to heat and cool the building. The percent of funding which will have to be applied to overhead and operating costs to operate the additional charter school sites will increase and the amount applied to classroom instruction will decrease. With that, class sizes will increase. The 15% of students who transfer to the charter school, which certainly won’t be a representative sample of the original school, may avoid some of the problems of the original school, however, for the 85% left behind, those problems will multiply.

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Local school systems have brought this on themselves with their abysmal performance.

Local voters have brought this on themselves by REPEATEDLY re-electing those who provide abysmal performance. (What are the odds that many of the APS board members who turned a blind eye to cheating will be re-elected?)

This amendment could open the door for all types of fiscal abuse, but the status quo has shown a willingness to do nothing that will dramatically improve teaching and learning conditions (RTTT? Really?)

In sum, Georgia is getting what it FULLY and RICHLY deserves.

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@LoganvilleGuy To address your concerns in the order you raised them.

1) Charter schools must perform, and out-perform their local counterparts… How much more control are you looking for. To Rep. Lindsey’s point, when was the last time a failing public school was shut for lack of performance?

2) The flexibility granted to charter schools is contingent on performance. Look at the legislation. Charter’s must meet the same standards as all local schools PLUS the additional commitments they make as specified in their charters. I hate to say it, but if there were more performance-based systems in place for public schools, charters would be unnecessary. And, as a side note, Georgia was granted a waiver from No Child Left Behind, so we’ll see what the public system comes up with.

3) My son goes to a for-profit charter that I am very satisfied with. They have a policy of 20 volunteer hours for each family which demands parent involvement. Furthermore, there is a local governance council comprised of community and parent leaders. Please don’t believe that all for-profit corporations lack oversight from parents and the community.

4) What you say is true, and Rep. Lindsey admits this as well… Charter schools are not silver bullets. But all they offer is a choice. Why are we campaigning against choice?

5) Your right to vote for your locally elected school board members will not disappear with this amendment. With all due respect, if parents are satisfied with their local schools, by all means leave them there. What has changed?

Why are are we campaigning against choice, the choice to send your child to a different school if you so choose? A school that is still public, and must meet the core-curriculum standards that all schools adhere to, PLUS their additional academic commitments pledged in their charters?

As a tax payer, why can’t I use my tax dollars to fund my child at the school of my choice? Why can’t the money follow the child? Why should it continue to go to schools that my child doesn’t attend?

This is no threat to local schools… They aren’t going anywhere. If you like yours, stay there. Just don’t take our options away.

Lastly @Follow The Money… The authority granted under DOE to name Special Status Schools to charter do not fund them. They provide only 50% of the necessary funds to operate… In effect, tying one proverbial arm behind the back of the schools and asking them to answer to greater demands than public schools. Does this sound like the current mechanisms you describe create a level playing field? Or does it sound like it is a system designed to discourage charters?

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Excellent comments by Rep Lindsey. Barge will gradually lose his credibility and ability to lead our state’s education flip. This blog continues to demonstrate an obvious bias against public charter schools and would rather keep funding more $ into a monopoly system of education that has failed miserably. You should all take a good look in the mirror and think long and hard about why you want to defend the status quo. Teachers need to understand that this is an opportunity for them to do things differently, incorporate new approaches to teaching kids, and ensuring that the most under-served children are not left behind.

Instead, all you care about is the partisan politics. I could give a ****** what Barge, Deal and these other folks say. We are talking about innovation and the best way for Georgia to close the achievement gap. Instead of being afraid to read a piece of research because you don’t like the author’s affiliation, maybe you would look at the facts and then decide where you think that methodology needs to be questioned.

Every single one of you who opposes this charter school amendment doesn’t understand that change is hard. Every new reform effort – public charter schools, blended learning, digital technology, etc…you see it as a threat instead of an opportunity. You will all look at my post as typical reformer rhetoric, but the research and facts are there. You all just choose to ignore it.

When you vote against this amendment, just remember you are not voting with the best interests of Georgia’s children in mind, and you are stating through your vote that you are comfortable with not only allowing monopolies to continue, but also comfortable with an education system that is not even living up to the standard of “adequate” that is explicitly mentioned in our state’s constitution.

I will let all of you keep bitching and moaning with your rants on this blog about how teachers are defamed and that the state is taking away funding from schools. Just remember, I have research that shows that there is NO STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT CORRELATION between education funding and academic achievement! It’s out there in the public domain. Check out pages 204 and 205 in the “American Revolution 2.0″ whitepaper I sent y’all. It’s all there, black and white.

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@dc The State DoE can and has granted charters. Also, even if approved by a local board, the state also needs to approve charters for that school to open. Currently, charter schools apply first to their local boards, and then if denied, appeal to the state. Check the link that Maureen gave – especially the History of Charters Granted and Terminated link.

Personally, I like the checks and balances in the current system. If a local community votes in a board that for some reason approves every charter application it receives, at least the state can still ensure that these schools meet educational requirements and will be fiscally sound. I still have no faith that an appointed Charter Commission will be anything but a commission of good old boy political favor appointments that will only be concerned with forwarding their personal interests. Also, I have an issue with duplication of effort (and funding the commission) – even if the Georgia Supreme Court ruling raises a question as to the state’s role in chartering schools, there is no reason the granting power couldn’t be given to the State Board of Ed. Why does Georgia need a commission when we have a State Board of Ed?

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Wow. A lot of “same ‘ol” going on here. Big surprise.

So I’ll say some things that are either different or that readers don’t believe – but that doesn’t mean they are not true:

1. The reason we need a constitutional amendment is because the Georgia Supreme Court essentially rewrote the Constitution last May and left the state out of ANY role in setting policy or accountability for public schools. The legislature (both parties in both houses) acted decisively in answering that insult, and now the voters have the final say. There is no other way to fix that problem.
2. Bringing back the Commission does not create a new bureaucracy, nor does it put control at the state level. The state commission will authorize some schools (a fraction of the total of approved charters in the state) – which it can also later de-authorize (unlike a traditional public schools, which live on whether or not they perform), but the schools themselves will be locally controlled by the parents, teachers and other stakeholders who create them and run them. Local control will truly be at the school level, not at the state.
3. So much has been made about “for-profit” companies starting and running charters, but again, if you look at the record, very few existing charters have contracts with these external organizations. That is also true of the handful of charters that were approved by the Commission. For charters to exist, the flexibility granted them must include the flexibility to bring in help with curricula or book-keeping or HR. That is what these firms do, when they are invited in under contract. It is hypocritical in the extreme for the status quo to be outraged that SOME charters pay SOME firms to do SOME work and make money at it, while these same bloggers have no trouble at all with textbook vendors, software companies, furniture or equipment manufacturers making a profit in traditional public schools.
4. The only studies that show charters not performing as well as or better than traditional schools are the studies funded by opponents of charter schools. Go visit a real charter school and see for yourself.
5. The amendment opponents consistently state that a dollar spent on a charter is a dollar taken away from traditional schools. They also say we must first restore “full funding” (whatever nirvana that was) to traditional education. This implies that at “full funding” public education in Georgia was working (it wasn’t) and it will work again (it won’t, because it never did). In our current economy, it is a responsibility of our leaders and funders to be creative and flexible. Read HR1162 and HB797 (the enacting legislation for the amendment). This laws guarantee that no local funds will be used to support these charters, nor will any state dollars be held back from districts.

Educate yourselves!

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Maureen, to your comment: “I don’t understand the claim being made by some posters that local districts aren’t approving charter schools. Most of the schools operating in the state are under local imprimatur” – it is a fact that the merest fraction of charter petition brought before local boards of education over the last five years have been approved by those boards. It is also a very well-documented fact that those Boards of Education pay good money to the Georgia School Boards Association to train their members annually, and that that training is clearly biased AGAINST charters. The system is rigged against charters and choice.

While most charters that have been approved by the state are also approved locally, there is no connection between the percentage of charters with local and state approval and the much higher percentage of charters denied locally – some repeatedly.

There is also no data at all about the number of charters NOT submitted because the petitioners KNOW they will be denied and refuse to waste their time. The system is rigged precisely to discourage this type of innovation.

An alternate path to authorization that first requires local denial (as will be created if the amendment passes) will ultimately force the local Boards of Education to be “honest brokers.” If you value local control, then, you should be in favor of the amendment.

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Here is the crux of this issue as expressd by Dr. Barge – “A new state agency that duplicates the existing work of the state Department of Education and the powers of the State Board of Education – while taking away local control and costing taxpayers millions of dollars – is just plain wrong”.

Heck yeah it is wrong – tax dollars wasted. Why isn’t the Tea Party all over this overreach by government, and wasteful government spending?

Maureen – It might be interesting to research where former employees of the Charter Commission landed after the Supreme Court ruling shut down their gov’t agency. Are they still on the state government payroll? If so, where?? And why? What are they doing?

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The mistake was trusting Barge to get something critical right. (Not that there was much worth choosing from in that particular election in the first place). He’s just another roadblock to improvement that will have to be removed down the line.

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Publicly financed schools that are independently run and free to experiment. They are seen differently by different interests.
1) Frustrated Parents see them as an answer to dumbed down regular schools. 2) Many political conservatives see them as an optional euphemism called “school choice” which they think will create competition. 3) Constitutional conservatives see them as “taxation without representation”. 4) Global corporate entities and NGO’s see them as a vehicle to further workforce training to create a global work force to serve the ends of a global society.

It has become obvious to all but the very blinded to reality that government schools have become a disaster regardless of which end of the political spectrum one finds one’s self. One often hears, “schools have failed”. Not so, it was planned, and the orchestration during at least the last half century of the deliberate dumbing down has succeeded to set the stage for restructuring what we’ve known as public schools. Rand corporation, one of the players in the process, had a name for it, “the unfreezing of the system”.

Since charter schools are not autonomous private schools, but are public schools funded with public money, they must be considered as a component of the original “parent” trunk of the Education Banyan Tree.

The Charter School Movement did not originate from parents looking for an escape from existing public schools. It originated from government planners in collaboration with think tanks, NGO’s and global corporate interests. The question not asked by charter school proponents today is, “how do charter schools fit into the Banyan Tree’s original trunk, and why are top level education officials (Arne Duncan ,Secretary of Education) leading the parade for charter schools unless charter schools have a role in the bigger picture to internationalize education?

It is interesting how these RINO Republicans are going to implement the Obama Education agenda at all costs.

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@Maureen

So please make yourself clear… Are you for or against the Amendment? What you say is true, we should make NO excuses for under-performing charter schools. BUT by that same logic, we should make no excuses for under-performing traditional schools. But there is nothing that can be done about traditional schools who under-perform should this amendment fail.. Whereas, if we amend the constitution, there will be something parents can do… Make a choice.

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Maureen, nothing about the Orchestra refusing to let Lassiter and Walton Highs choruses perform because they have too many white kids?

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Bravo to Dr. Barge and his bravery to stand up for what his conscience tells him and the charter supporters want to ignore-this amendment will gut traditional education at the expense of thousands of children’s education.
I wish I had much more time to write but there are so many untruths spoken by the charters proponents
1. There are few for-profit charters operating. That may be the case at the moment but if this amendment passes it will open the floodgates. The sharks are circling and they smell the MONEY.
2. That charters are used to serve those stuck in a low performing schools with low SES children but yesterday CharterStarter stated that charters should be setup in all districts-even the successful ones.
3. That charter schools are public schools-in other states the goal posts are moved to give charters huge advantages by giving them less transparency than their counterparts.
4. The charters operate at less than their traditional counterparts but they do this in a number of ways-paying teachers less, not providing the basics for their students, etc… but the CEO and admin are often times paid more than their traditional counterparts.

As has been said a number of times, the ability to start charters and appeal their denial already exists-we do not need another unelected level of Deal appointed cronies to be involved in this. It will lead to no good.

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@Charter Starter, not being argumentative, I actually am intertested in knowing where the contrary data showing the success of Charter schools is.

Thanks

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To supporters of this amendment: Why should we trust ANYTHING Ed Lindsey has to say, when he has done NOTHING to support the regular public school teacher in matters of DISCIPLINE?

If the shill for “law and order” and “personal responsibility” hasn’t advocated for teachers to have tools to hold students accountable for academics OR behavior, is it not right to dismiss him as a COMPLETE, TOTAL hypocrite?

There are INDEED ways to “leverage” the public schools into doing a better job, OTHER THAN “competition”

If he would support those in addition to this amendment, wouldn’t that increase his credibility when he claims it’s “for the children”?

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@Charter Starter: from your 9:55AM post: If I accept that Georgia needs to amend its Constitution, I do not see how a new commission appointed by state elected officers does not “put control at state level” and how this is not creating a new bureaucracy.

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Disagreement within the opposite party. A field day for Maureen, and for the teachers’ unions dumping big money into defeating this latest initiative to give parents more choices!

If the amendment passes, after all, the union strategy of fielding phony “Republicans” in local school board races to doom all charter school applications—will ultimately prove less fruitful.

Parents and kids be damned, eh?

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Disagreement within the opposite party. A field day for Maureen, and for the teachers’ unions dumping big money into defeating this latest initiative to give parents more choices!

If the amendment passes, after all, the union strategy of fielding phony “Republicans” in local school board races to doom all charter school applications—will ultimately prove less fruitful.

Parents and kids be damned, eh?

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How much quicker would the academic genocide of Beverly Hall’s regime been put to an end if the AJC had reported that half the principals had to be replaced because they lost no confidence votes?

Ed Lindsey and crew-with legislation that could have mandated this- could have prevented the conditions that were RIPE for cheating. Ed Lindsey and crew chose NOT to.

And now we are supposed to blindly trust his integrity?

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“The reason we need a constitutional amendment is because the Georgia Supreme Court essentially rewrote the Constitution last May and left the state out of ANY role in setting policy or accountability for public schools”

Huh?? Not to nitpick, but have you been in school building lately? The state wrote the curriculum, they are in the midst of rolling out a new teacher evaluation system, they grade schools, etc. All that while only paying 38% of the bill. I wish I had that kind of control for that little money. They are the legislature- they have policy control via legislation. This amendment is hardly their recovery of due control.

Also, the court cannot rewrite the constitution, essentially or actually. Their job is to interpret it and determine its legality. Since the portions of the constitution relating to education were ratified, the state has had its authority over education. That isn’t what this is about, and many realize that. There’s too much rancor, too much partisan politics, and too many egos involved at the state level for me to accept that there’s any nobility in their push for this amendment. The court took the narrow view current politics dictates. If anything, that was the conservative viewpoint at its finest.

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” the union strategy of fielding phony “Republicans””

That’s like stealing candy from a baby since they’re mostly phony anyway regardless of party. We get them cheap too, btw by pretending to be a conservative charter management company. Works like a charm!

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Maureen: I like Jay’s p.o.v. sometimes!

What’s unfortunate is that the really passionate and caring about school reform and those who truly believe in charter schools are being used as patsies by the legislature. I wonder how long it will take before the legislature turns on them too as they work towards privatization of education. I hate to see how some very devoted folks are being used.

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This is driving me crazy. NO ONE is arguing against choice!!!!! What we are saying, and some folks are simply refusing to hear- is that this amendment is unnecessary. There is already an appeals process for denied charters. It is just that simple. There is NO NEED to duplicate what the State BOE already does. That’s it. No one is saying “Shut all charters down!” We are saying, “Let MORE of us be released from the red tape!” But, again,there are those who refuse to hear that message and harp on “choice.”

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@Holly and Maureen.

Choice is exactly what you argue against. My son goes to one of the charters approved by the commission and rejected by the local board, and in fact sued by the local board. And if this amendment does not pass, his school will close, even if granted Special School Status by the DOE. This is because their funding would decrease by 50%. So it’s not a duplication of powers. Under the new amendment, the state money can follow the child, NOT local money, thereby allowing them to continue to operate. Where’s the duplication of power? Where is the choice when my son’s school closes? Yes, you do indeed argue against choice. Let me take 50% of your income away and see if you can operate.

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@Maureen I’ve believed all along that the lining of legislators’ pockets was the driving force all these “choice” advocates. Otherwise, they’d be calling for an end to the mandates for all schools, for more conversion charter schools and districts. Yet, all I hear on those topics is the chirping of crickets. So, a poorly worded amendment and throwing chum in water (in the guise of “You are against choice if you are against the amendment!”) are the strategies. Politics at its best.

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@Holly Jones it does look like the legislators pushing this have a vested interest is seeing the traditional public schools fail, so they can promote choice.

But look at the LACK of integrity by which the traditional public school have operated. Look at organizations like the Georgia School Board Association. Have they EVER pushed for meaningful change that would empower teachers in this state to hold students accountable for academics and behavior?

Have you seen ANY local school board that has addressed this?

If not, how can you cal them “the good guys” in this?

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@Beverly, I’m not calling anyone “good” or “bad” (well, there are a few individuals who qualify for the latter IMHO). Has APS failed children. Absolutely. Dekalb? Yep, from where I sit, which is not in Dekalb, but I pay attention. I would love to see the issue of discipline and parental involvement brought to the forefront of these discussions. I believe, as I think you do, that without these, any other “reform” will fail. Until administrators and BOEs grow a backbone and stand up to parents who argue that little Johnny’s suspension is unfair and threaten legal action, I don’t know what to do. The Legislature isn’t going to jump into this- they’re too busy dismantling the system anyway.

I don’t think most of the “fixes” needed for schools require a ton of money. They DO require people to take responsibility for their actions and each their kids to do the same. I wish we could legislate that.

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@Maureen, by your own stats, one has a 63% better chance at doing as well or better in a charter school than at a traditional school.

But if the charter school fails, parents have an EXPONENTIALLY better chance at banding together and making change at that one school.

That sounds more like a reason TO support this amendment, even if you can’t trust Ed Lindsey intentions for students any farther than you can throw him.

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Here you go…people. More research that you will undoubtedly find fault with.

http://georgiapolicy.org/charter-school-successes-well-documented/

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correction:

The number that regress is actually 37 students. So… we’re going to sacrifice 37 students so that 17 can see improvement.

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outdated: yep, we will find fault. I congratulate those schools, but what does that have to do with anything in this debate? This isn’t about the performance of those schools, this is about the need for a commission to do what we already can do without spending any more money. I applaud those schools, but their performance isn’t germane in this debate.

Also, I think the monopoly argument has been worn….slap….out. Intelligent minds know better, and the rest seem to have gone elsewhere. Please let’s move on from that.

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Just to set the record straight, there are no teacher unions in the state of Georgia. There are two professional organizations (PAGE & GAE), but no union(s). Just thought I’d mention this since several posts have inferred “union coercion” regarding the acts of certain politicians.

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@living Nobody has said that there aren’t good charter schools. Just as with any other model (traditional, private, virtual, and homeschool) you have those that perform well, those that perform on average and those that perform poorly.

And, while I do not question the results of the studies, I do question Mr. Greene’s implication that students were randomly placed in either a charter or traditional school In all the studies, students still applied to the charters, they were not randomly placed. From the link to the Chicago study, “Students who apply to attend charter schools are a selfselected group, and simply comparing them with all other students in local public schools is likely to be misleading.” For a true measure of how any individual charter school is performing, one would need to do a “double blind” study of the students – a complete random draw of students eligible to attend the charter versus their counter parts in the rest of the system. However, this removes the entire “choice” aspect of charter schools. If a charter school were just “another school in the system,” would the parents be as happy? After all, we are psychologically wired to be happier with something we can “choose,” regardless if it is indeed “better.”

Can charter schools have great gains in achievement? Definitely. Can traditional schools? Definitely! My local elementary school saw double digit gains on the ITBS in one year because of a new program implemented by the administration, support by the faculty, and embraced by the parents. Their 5th grade writing test scores in the exceeds category went up by over 25%. And this is a Title I school with almost 40% ELLs. Great things can happen in any educational community when all the stakeholders are motivated, engaged, and on the same path. And just as in private schools, imo, that is the great advantage of charter schools. They start with a motivated and engaged community. It is a shame that across the country so many do not seem to hold onto that momentum.

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Competition? No, state charters are not competition. That’s like saying the Georgia State Panthers are competition against the New England Patriots. Charters receive DOUBLE the tax dollars and barely 1/2 the students per teacher. I’ve heard it said that “the money still follows the students”. That is a bold faced lie. Tell me how that is competition. This is the GOP trying to keep the upper middle class lazy and/or greedy and/or racists happy so they will keep supporting the GOP so they get to keep the jobs they don’t do. The high income supporters don’t want their kids going to school with packed classrooms that may contain low income student families and/or minorities. That’s what this amendment push is really about. They want to create these charters so they can sneak around and have a charter “lottery” that only they and their close friends know about. They don’t put the effort in to offer this “choice” to everyone in the community. Even if they did, I’m sure their deceipt would know no bounds during the “lottery” student selection process. I dare Rep. Lyndsey to go out to a low income housing community full of minorities and insist on helping these families put their kids in these charters. It will NEVER happen. (Unless of course he reads this and makes one 10 minute production on video just to try to prove me wrong.) It’s all about perception people. The GOP leaders are tall, handsome, smooth talkers who are great at picking your pocket because you are captivated by their smiles and the (R) beside their name. Wake up a smell the BS!

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@Seriously – when you say something intelligent and logical, maybe we can respond with an intelligent rebuttal.

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@Charter Starter – Please tell me what lines in the amendment state that the charter schools have to start at the local school board: here is what I found:
41 Special schools may include
42 state charter schools; provided, however, that special schools shall only be public schools.
43 A state charter school under this section shall mean a public school that operates under the
44 terms of a charter between the State Board of Education and a charter petitioner; provided,
45 however, that such state charter schools shall not include private, sectarian, religious, or
46 for profit schools or private educational institutions;

Looks to me as if the amendment only spells out the charters between the State and petitioner.

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a pox on both sides

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living: I’ve said that. While I am learning a lot about charter schools that has helped me understand them much better, I absolutely don’t plan to vote for the amendment. I fully support charter schools and the role they can play in places like APS where more effective options need to be explored. But I uncategorically refuse to support the legislature and governor- they’re about as honest as Satan, in my opinion.

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@ teaching/Fla

the original concept is actually a very good one. take the kids who the public schools can’t effectively serve and offer some of them an alternative. win win for everybody.

public school was never intended to serve everyong beyond a certain point. think bell curve.

problem is, what its become. just another point to belabor

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@Bootney – you just said something very controversial

“public school was never intended to serve everyone beyond certain point – think bell curve”

Are you serious? No child left behind is no child getting ahead. You are fine with leaving the low achievers vulnerable to gangs and youth crime because they were uneducated. And ironically, that’s exactly where digital learning can come in and save the day, but public schools don’t know how to do that!

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amazing how the people who inflicted Race to the Top on us are the primary ones doing a kamakazi
on education in general

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having reread both posts again, I can only draw one conclusion.

Lindsey is acting like a pompous ass.

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The only constitutional amendment that should be made it to get rid of the mandated amount of school distrits 158?? or what ever the current amount is. The truth is the current mega districts do not function for anything but Class 5 or is it now Class 6 football and other sports. Let us have truely local control of our schools, let Sandy Springs have their own district, they can then decided if Buckhead Residents can pay tuition, just like Decatur does to Dekalb. The new city of Brookhaven could open their own schools, people would no longer have to pay the $22,000 per year private school tuition. Dunwoody could open their schools, it could go on and on.

Or they could just let everyone have a voucher of their State and Federal Funds of the $8,600 the same for everyone whether you are gifted, on-level or EIP to follow the student. That would creat alot of choice. It would cover the Catholic school K-8, I would still have to kick in twice that for high school.

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Just to set the record straight –

@CharterStarter 10:13
It is a well-documented fact that all 180 elected boards of education have chosen to join the Georgia School Boards Association and most do choose to get their training from us. The rest of your “fact” is, however, untrue.

We have a long-standing position supporting local approval of charter schools. We teach our boards that approving a charter is like adopting a child in that once the school is approved, it is theirs just as all other district schools are. They have chosen to allow the charters to be managed differently. We advise them to work out the terms of the relationship during the petition process.

Our presenters at charter workshops always include DOE personnel — Andrew Broy when he was here, Lou Erste, and others. They are hardly opposed to charters.

Throwing darts at us and our training is misdirection away from an important issue.

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@Beverly Fraud 12:26
I’m not sure why you would worry about the Georgia School Boards Association not lobbying on behalf of teachers. Teachers have several associations doing so, and we leave it to them.

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not to speak for Beverly, but my concern about the GSBA is apperance of wanting the benefits without having gotten dirty doing the work. all of us in education are under attack, GSBA as well.

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@ Catlady. Sigh. Are we back here AGAIN? If charters are so “selective,” then how come they serve about the same (or over the last few years) more free and reduced lunch eligible students than traditional schools? I think the big fallacy is that poor parents can’t or won’t sacrifice for their children. We have charters in this state with more than 75%, more than 85, more than 90% free and reduced lunch. We have a lot of neglectful middle and upper class parents, too. We shouldn’t make such generalizations based on socioeconomic status. If that was the case, then those 90/90/90 schools wouldn’t be getting so much attention.

@ Jarvis – I appreciate your question. As I said, every district and every school was reported by the AJC not too long ago. Here are the links:

http://www.ajc.com/news/2012-georgia-crct-results-1466206.html
http://www.ajc.com/news/2012-georgia-crct-results-1476281.html

This reports out by grade and subject the number of students not meeting, meeting, and exceeding the standards. And if you go into the details, you can see other information, such as the mean scale score (i.e., not only who met or exceeded the standard, but to what degree). I hope that someone will take the time to do some real comparisons with our independent charters – NOT for the purpose of hammering the districts, but to at least show that our charters are performing well and showing continual growth and progress. For the state schools, look at the year before and see the growth of these schools, too, in grade levels and subjects. For established schools, look at the their performance and progress over time.

For those of you who continue to say it’s about the “for profits,” please explain all of our home grown charters who have been busting it for years on sweat equity of parents and community members to establish great learning environments and have no interest whatsoever in having someone else run their schools. What is their motivation? Take a balanced view of the landscape, please. And look nationally as well. Outside of the charter sector, in some other states, there are “contract schools” where traditional districts are contracting out to for-profits for management and instruction. It’s not solely the charter sector where these entities exist.

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“Corporations are in business to make money — providing a return to the shareholders is the goal. Education is about the kids and should remain so.”
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Well said.

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@ Ms. Palm, would you explain to me please, if this is the “state” driving this initiative why hundreds and hundreds of parents were burning up the phone lines and standing 10 deep along the ropes to get to their legislators this past legislative session? These schools – parents, governance boards, and staff alike – are trying to stay alive to continue serving their children successfully. And there are schools approved in local districts scared to death (because of implicit or explicit “suggestions”) their districts will not renew them and they’ll have no where to go. Do you disagree with there being a checks and balances like anything else in our society?

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We do we keep getting lost in the weeds? This amendment is not about the schools themselves, but if the approval method goes through a board answerable to the voters or not.

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“how on earth can you be hypercritical of someone who is saying, in our given circumstances, we must stop spending money we don’t have on things we can’t afford?”

Whole lot of knuckleheads got elected on the cut spending platform in recent years. Seems they’re willing to spend willy-nilly if it serves their political purpose. And they’ll villify any of their own who dare to call them on it.

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@CharterStarter, Too, 5:08 pm

“Mary Elizabeth – so, are you saying that any for-profit company selling services or products to schools does not care about children and academic achievement?”
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Public schools do not exist for profit. To imply that they do so is disingenuous.

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“You support charter schools as long as they are the bastard stepchildren of the local school boards.”

Nice to see that when all else fails, resort to foolish blather. If that were a chess move, you just sauntered into checkmate. Moving on to substantive deate now…

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“The second was an intriguing suggestion about giving teachers the right to register a no confidence vote against a principal.”

Well I’ll be d@mn! Ed ponied up to the bar!

I share some of the concerns that this is just a bonanza for “privateers” But that is tempered by the reality of the FSQ (Failed Status Quo) SOMETHING has to get the education monolith’s attention!

If they fought FOR discipline half as hard as they fought AGAINST this amendment we might not need this amendment!

But here’s the thing; why not address some of the shortcomings in the regular public schools AND advocate for greater choices? Glad you brought up the “no confidence vote”

You have two issues that are COMPLETELY handcuffing the regular classroom teacher. LACK of discipline, and administrative RETALIATION. (Don’t ask GAE/PAGE because as charter carrying members of the FSQ-Failed Status Quo-you’re not likely to get them to admit anything near the extent of the problem)

How do you fix this? Restore “checks and balances” Just think back to the APS cheating scandal. Teachers KNEW it was going on, but were powerless to stop it at their particular school. Teachers KNOW discipline is out of control in many schools, but are powerless to stop it. And unfortunately they know many an OIR department is “anti-teacher” and all but supports a corporate culture of bullying and intimidation (just look at the Governor’s report on the APS cheating scandal for example)

Why? ABUSE of the evaluation instrument. A teacher speaks up and then suddenly an “observation” takes place noting “deficiencies” even if none exists, the teacher is often powerless to contest it.

This is where you have CHECK and BALANCES. A “no confidence” vote. The principal who is creating hostile work conditions knows there is REAL accountability from his/her staff (and think about it, if CHILDREN can be trusted to evaluate teachers, why can’t teachers be trusted to evaluate administrators)

I know what some administrators might be thinking (would love Dr. Henson to weigh in on this) “It will cut off my authority to make tough staffing decisions”

Possibly. So here’s the way to address it. Set the bar LOW. Maybe the no confidence vote shouldn’t be right at 50% + 1. Maybe it should be 60%. That is if a FULL 60% of your staff has lost confidence in your ability to lead, perhaps HR in Central Office should be COMPELLED to look at it, not turn and blind eye to it. Sounds like an easy threshold for an “effective” principal to reach does it not? MORE than fair.

This threshold would easily prevent a few disgruntled employees from arbitrarily undercutting a good principal would it not? AND it has the added advantage of ” incentivizing” (for lack of a better term) principals to “counsel” out those teachers who have lost the respect of their peers (and don’t just keep them in because they happen, for example to be in the same sorority/fraternity which is an open secret is many a metro system)

Rep. Lindsey, if you are the LEAST bit serious, this could cause a SEISMIC shift in discipline and give a much needed MORALE boost to the classroom teacher. Why? Because a teacher can refer a child to the office knowing if there is RETALIATION for such an action, the STAFF can address that, rather than wait for a non-responsive central office to do so. A teacher can speak up at a faculty meeting, and if there is RETALIATION for doing so, the rest of the staff has recourse.

I’ll ask Dr. Henson, Tony and any other administrator out there: if a principal is doing their job, and doing it correctly, why would there be any fear of a “no confidence” vote as an appropriate check and balance? Isn’t time that the “corporate culture” of intimidation of teachers be given an appropriate check and balance?

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@MaryElizabeth
Would you prefer $7k was spent at a for-profit giving children a good education or would you rather spend that $7k on what they are getting now in non-profits?

Charter schools are non-profit organizations. Just like county schools they can hire for-profits to carry out various tasks. Also, “non-profit” school executives make quite the profit.

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@Maureen,

Will you honor Rep. Ed’s wish and to a blog topic about empowering teachers and improving morale?

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@ LD – the enabling legislation (HB 797) spells that out. The State board Rules and guidance require the same petition to be submitted (so charters have to make a good faith effort at the district level.)

Good question. Thanks for reading the language for yourself.

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@DeKalb Teacher, 8:05 pm

“MaryElizabeth
Would you prefer $7k was spent at a for-profit giving children a good education or would you rather spend that $7k on what they are getting now in non-profits?”
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I do not wish to see education turned into a profit-making enterprise so that some can make a lot of money by using children to do so. I want to see public education improved. Some public charter schools, working with local Boards of Education within their districts, should be able to complement, instead of supplant, traditional public schools. This process should be left in the hands of local Boards of Education, especially since parents have the right now, by present law, to appeal a decision made by a local Board of Education, regarding charter schools, to the state Department of Education via the Superintendent of Schools. There is no need for an amendment to the State’s Constitution to form a new body to control charter school assignments. That Constitutional amendment is primary a political undertaking, not an educational one, imo.

Also, not all public schools are second rate; some are excellent. Likewise, not all charter schools are excellent; some are second rate. I do not trust schools which are designed essentially on profit.

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@ Beverly

a question we often asked ourselves at GPC was if there had been a sincere watchdog, could we have stopped the disaster before it began.

we saw ourselves going broke, we saw ourselves being overrun with unnecessary middle management, we saw ourselves compromised. we tried and tried to get downtown’s attention, but nobody wanted to hear it

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@ Charter Starter, Too: Yes, but the statement was that it is spelled out in the amendment. Amendments are much more difficult than legislation. For an amendment to be successful, there needs to be a 2/3 vote in each of the chambers (thus the difficulty with HR1162 in the first place.. it was voted down the first time it appeared in both of the Georgia chambers), and then ratified by a simple majority of the voters. If the authorizing mechanism was that clearly spelled out in the amendment, great. However, legislation is much easier to manipulate. Just because HB797 is currently law, doesn’t mean that come January 14, 2013 some legislator won’t introduce legislation that will completely change the landscape. And legislation requires only a simple majority in the chambers and the governor’s signature. I have faith that the vast majority of educators are dedicated and truly try to do their best for all their students. However, I do not have faith that the vast majority of our legislators are that dedicated and truly trying to do their best for all their constituents. Now, if your campaign contribution is high enough, then the legislator might try harder. Personally, I think there will be a proposed change to HB797 in the 2013 session.

And, if you read HB797, it becomes very clear that the commission is duplication of effort. In line 77, the commission may “. . . use existing department personnel to conduct . . .” reviews of charter petitions. As HB797 is legislation, there is no reason the legislature could not have giving the state Board the granting authority. Also, in my mind, there is no reason the legislature could not have clearly spelled out the state board’s ability to grant charters in the amendment.

Charters are a great option for a communities. I don’t think the commission is.

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In addition to the remarks which I had posted on the first page of this thread, I also posted the following comments on Kyle Wingfield’s blog regarding this issue, which I wish to share with readers of this blog:
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“Two points: (1) The charter movement is a growing phenomenon, so even if there have been only relatively few charter schools to be concerned about supplanting traditional public schools presently, the real possibility for even greater momentum in this direction lies on the horizon through political means. (2) There is only so much taxpayers’ money to go around, divide it how you wish. Too much financial resource taken from traditional public schools for charter schools will weaken traditional public schools – which are charged with educating ALL of the children of the state. That is why local Boards of Education should be the overseers of this balance between charters in their districts and traditional public schools in their districts.

I want to go on record as saying that I am not against public charter schools and that I believe that working through local Boards of Education, public charter schools might complement rather than dismantle traditional public schools. Furthermore, there is no need for this amendment to Georgia’s Constitution, as there already exists by law a means of appeal to parents regarding establishing charter schools to the state’s Board of Education via the Superintendent of Schools.”

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“Students must never be used as pawns for private profit gain.”

So if a charter school can give a child a great education for $7000 a year, but the local non-profit public school has to spend $9000 per year to give the same child a mediocre education, you would still favor the public school?

What has attracted private profit businesses to the field of education is the ludicrous amounts of money that is spent in public education to teach kids – often without good results because the public schools hamstring themselves by not attending to serious issues that ARE UNDER THEIR CONTROL! Issues such as discipline, attendance, social promotion, student and parent apathy. The for-profit charters have come to realize they can address these isses, give students who want to learn a better education, and MAKE A PROFIT, TOO.

If the local community had garbage pick-up and you were forced to pay $40 per month, but you knew that a for-profit company would offer you better service and only charge $20 per month – would you say that everyone should be forced to stay with the inefficient local community garbage pick-up?

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Rep. Lindsey:

I am not against charter schools. I have worked at a charter school. I firmly believe charter schools have a place in the educational system.

However, I do not believe the state has a right to override local control. As a republican, how can you support overriding local control and creating another layer of government control?

You ask for ideas from GA teachers but turn around and support legislation that is created/influenced by ALEC and other outside forces. I attended the luncheon last summer. I believed you were sincere in your concerns. Then, the legislative session rolled around and nothing we discussed was addressed during the session. Instead, you chose to focus your attention on vouchers and by-passing local control. I was disappointed.

I’ve since talked with legislators who admit the pressure exerted on this amendment was enormous. One has to wonder….If this amendment is so critical to improving education in GA, why the arm-twisting within your own party? Why

Instead of “improving” education in GA, most efforts on the part of the Gold Dome have only served to destroy morale and improvements. It is time for the Gold Dome to step back and give Dr. Barge the autonomy to make needed improvements.

Sincerely,
teacher&mom

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Why don’t we wait and see how the voters vote in November. If everyone is happy with their local public school and don’t want the availability of a second choice should their local school board refuse to allow a competing charter, then the amendment will fail like T-SPLOST. However, if people are fed up with the local BOE’s monopoly and lack of dealing with issues, then the amendment will pass. Let us see. What I hear is a lot of public school supporters running scared that they can’t compete with charter schools.

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There is a bigger issue at stake here, which is why the Georgia Chamber of Commerce is stepping out in favor of the issue. It’s an economic development issue – we are not turning out a qualified workforce. We cannot attract business without a strong educational system. We are our own worst enemy and are going to allow ourselves to end up in an economic black hole if we don’t do something. Charters are not the silver bullet, but the provide an impetus for re-evaluation of public education. Our public education system is mired in complacency that will likely never (because it hasn’t’ yet) make substantive enough changes to provide the impact we need to get out of this mess.

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Andrea Palm – to respond: for years, I have spoken to BOE members who have undergone your training, and unanimously, the come away from that training with the idea that charters are a bad idea and take public funds away. Perhaps in additional to DOE you should invite the Georgia Charter Schools Association to join your training. I know they would accept and work with you.

Also, since you are so careful to instruct BOE members about the fact that charters are public schools, are you prepared to publicly condemn the largest school system in Georgia, and the recent winner of the Broad prize as the best urban school system in the nation (Gwinnett), for just passing a resolution that says charter schools “divert public school funds away from local community schools support the operation of private or for-profit charter schools”?

As you know, there is no such thing as either a private or a for-profit charter school. It is a well-publicized myth.

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I have not read all the comments, but shouldn’t the majority leader have some one check his emails/writing. Doesn’t he(I mean we) pay someone to do that for him? He lost me at “180%”

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@ Mary Elizabeth – You write beautifully. Your ideas of public education, although beautifully written, are very idealistic…

The very, very , very most basic things kids MUST leave public education doing to contribute to society and access anything else of value and meaning in the world is reading, writing, and computing. That can be measured, and IS measured. And in many, many cases, our kids are leaving schools unable to do this very basic thing that is the most primary of intents of public education.

Then you move to the next level of the purpose of public education (which, of course, is taught concurrently with the basic skills), and that is thinking and reasoning. This is measurable, and our kids are struggling with this as well.

And finally, you move to the final level of a strong public education, which is teaching democratic values, self worth, community commitment, etc., etc. These are harder to measure, but evident in more qualitative ways. These values are taught by parents and reinforced by the schools, and we can really see the breakdown in the fabric of both by what we are seeing going on in society. There is a chasm between the home and the school that we must bridge.

The concern most of us have is that we are failing at the first rung of the ladder (and I am not generalizing, as there are very successful districts and schools that should be commended). But overall, just numerically speaking, it is evident our kids are unprepared for LIFE. Our businesses have an unqualified work force.

We have to ensure students at least get the basics, and from there, they can think and reason and learn to value what is important for a successful life and to contribute meaningfully to society.

We are selling kids short, Mary Elizabeth, and in doing so, selling our future short as a nation.

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Our country wouldn’t be the great powerhouse that it is without public education.

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Charter: That’s part of what I’m trying to analyze. How many of those “hundreds of letters of intent and petitions” turned in to actual charter applications that were denied? I’m trying to understand how the state BOE has functioned in all of this. I know the local districts have probably turned down a lot, and in the last few years, I understand why from a financial point. What I’m wondering is how many locally denied applications, not letters of intent, were subsequently appealed to the state BOE and denied as well? I know you don’t have all the numbers I ask for at your fingertips, but I’m wondering if anyone has thought about publishing those numbers. If there’s a significant pattern of denial at the state level, then we need to know that. I don’t seem to be able to find any published as of yet. If there is clear, numerical proof that the state BOE has denied significant numbers of charter applications appealed to them, then there would be a stronger arguement for the amendment perhaps? The stagnant number of community-based charter startups also makes me wonder. How many of those were also denied by the state BOE and why? I know of a number of charter schools that seem to be doing as well as and better than their districts. I have a couple of friends teaching in charter schools. Their performance right now isn’t what I’m wondering about. I’m curious about the process and seeing numbers that would justify another approval body if the numbers are there to prove its need.

This is what happens when it’s too rainy to get outside and work in the yard. Me thinks I ponder too much sometimes.

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Meredith:

You will be happy to know that your money is spent wisely in my legislative office and no one is paid to proof read my e mails and blog entries. My typo mistakes are my own. It is, of course, “180 degree.”

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@ Rep Lindsey

alright, you asked. I’m stating my positions here, in cyber public. I’ll be interested to see if you respond. I hope you’ll understand why we as a whole are suspicious of the legislature, and will need to see some actions supporting your words.

1-allow us to remove kids who are disruptive, unwilling/able to do the work, and (after the sixth grade) have no interest in being there.

2-stop balancing the state budget on our backs. you have a constitutional requirement to provide education, not promote fishing.

3-a real, honest to God independent advocate for Georgia educators. disband the current system of self investigation of ethics complaints.

4-make it a requirement all educational administrators must have at least six years of actual classroom experience.

5-raises would be nice.

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Representative Lindsay, very good news, indeed, and I am impressed by your ownership of that which is yours. I may disagree with you, but I have so missed being able to respect my officials. Thank You, assuming this is actually you and not some yahoo posting under your name.

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I was once told that Commission had the ability to change a petition; whereas the local BoE’s and the State BoE can only recommend changes to the petitioner. If the petitioner did not wish to make the changes, the LBoE and SBoE could not force the issue. Is this correct?

Also, CS2, where do you put conversion charters in your calculations? In the box with start-ups? Or in the box with system charters? Conversion charters should fit in your start-up box, imo.

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Teacher & Mom:

Let me start by thanking you for meeting with me and other educators last year. I found it very productive as well. Let me try and answer your questions as follows:

1. Why did we focus on Charter schools in the 2012 session? Because the Supreme Court struck down a three year education policy that had operated well in providing an opportunity to local parents who want to establish a charter school to have their charter application receive a second look on its merits. I had hoped to move on to other issues in 2012 such as the ones we discussed last summer , but in the limited time we had this year we were forced to look back and try to fix constitutional concerns raised by the courts.

2. Why have a state charter program? I chaired the education study committee on charter schools in 2007 and we discovered wide disparity from system to system in our state as to how charter school applications were handled. Some were dealt with fairly. Some were rejected out of hand with no serious consideration given. Some were approved and then financially starved to death. Unfortunately, many of the children in the state who could benefit the most from a charter school were living in systems that were most resistant to treating charter schools fairly.

We then looked at other states and found that some were far too lenient in who could charter a school and others were like Georgia and far too uneven. We found that charter schools tended to be the most helpful to improving education in states that provided a second look option similar to the one we proposed in 2008 and are asking to be re-established through this constitutional amendment.

3. Isn’t it better to have these decisions at the local level? Yes. I strongly believe that any state system should only be a pressure relief valve and not a flood gate. Our proposal encourages applicants to go through local systems rather than the state. For instance, a state charter school can only receive state funds to support it while a local charter school receives both local and state dollars. The formula for the amount of state dollars going to a state charter school will be pegged to the total amount spent by those local school systems in the state spending at the lowest per pupil level. This is done to encourage applicants to first try the local system.

4. Arm twisting? There was a lot of lobbying on both sides of this issue last session. In eight years in office I have found that opposing sides of an important issue always believe that the other side is too heavy handed and that their side is merely educating decision makers. Rest assured, the opponents of this measure were not bashful in exerting enormous pressure on members. However, let me leave it at that because I would prefer to keep this discussion here focused on the merits of the proposal. I am glad the issue is now in the hands of the voters. I trust their wisdom regardless of how the vote goes.

In conclusion, I appreciated our discussion last summer and hope we will have more in the future. Regardless of how the vote goes in November, we still have a lot of work to do to on education in this state. I look forward to hearing from all of you and hope that we can find common ground.

Edward

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CST: so are there any numbers on how many charters the commission approved in its existence? I think you’ve shared that number. I’m also wondering what percentage of charters were approved by the state board after appeal from local denial. For me, part of understanding the need for the commission comes down to numbers. I get the funding issues prior to 797. That’s why I’m trying to pin down some numbers so I can see some proof of the commission’s viability. I’m getting tired of the sniping on both sides of this, to be honest, and I think people would have a simpler decision if we had some numbers that would show how the commission benefitted the process. It wouldn’t surprise me to see some partiality on the part of the state board of ed. But if there haven’t been a significant number of appeals to them to either approve or deny, then there’s no real proof of their bias. If there are some numbers we can put to this, then a lot of the arguments could be solved.

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Ron, I think it’s fair to say the Commission charters weren’t around long enough to judge their success objectively. Most of them were still in their first full year of operation when the Supreme Court ruled.

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DeKalb Teacher, 5:14 pm

“MaryElizabeth.
Charter Schools are non-profit public schools. They hire 3rd parties to carry out various tasks just like regular public schools.”
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There are many types of charter schools, and how each operates can vary, although at the moment in Georgia, you are correct. This can change, however, as political realities change, over time. Some charter schools, later, become private for-profit charter schools, and others can become obligated financially to the profit-based criteria of the managing corporations that run them. This is very different from the way traditional public schools operate. Please read the link below, in full, to understand what is happening, regarding profit, in charter schools, in fuller detail.

http://www.isreview.org/issues/62/feat-charterschools.shtml

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@ ME and your GSU expert. KIPP is non-profit.

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So if parents decided to start a charter, the state commission would approve it? What if the parents wanted to opt out of the national curriculum that has been imposed, opt out of national testing in favor of teacher designed assessments, and opt out of all online classes?

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To Mary Elizabeth:
I understand and appreciate all your concerns about charters becoming for-profit entities that are not producing real learning.
What I wish you could experience is the for-profit entity called the Atlanta Public School system. It is corrupt. The local BOE does not have the children’s best interests at heart. They have their own interests in heart and in mind and they act on it.
I am an advocate for traditional public schools when they work. When they don’t, there has got to be another option. Right now, charter schools are the only other feasible option for the non-rich. Perhaps in the future there will be other options for quick fixes and other options for school systems that are corrupt and fail to teach but right now charter schools are it for APS.
I sense you teach in another district, one that is successful, so I can see your point of view.
Respectfully (and still a fan of yours)
P and J

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Please read the following excerpt, from the link below, to better understand the business interest in profit that exists within the current national drive toward more charter schools:
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“While nonprofit charter schools are more pervasive than their for-profit counterparts, for the quarter of charters that are for-profit, the obvious problem is that the drive to make a profit will compromise educational quality. And for-profits and non-profits are under similar pressure to expand as quickly as possible.

Edison Schools Incorporated is one of the largest for-profit charter school companies. It ran twenty schools in Philadelphia alone until it was discredited this year. With board members like John Chubb of the Hoover Institution and Brookings Institution, it made a bald-faced attempt to turn millions of dollars in profits by controlling 157 schools. (Not very successfully, though; it was traded on the NASDAQ for four years but only showed one quarter of profitability.33) The most fundamental problem with a private model of education is that a company’s profits depend directly on cost-cutting. The cheaper the services they provide, just as in private prisons and hospitals, the more profit they turn. So there is always an incentive to do things on the cheap—poorly maintained physical plant and equipment, low pay for teachers and other staff, and larger class sizes mean bigger rates of return.

The dynamic works in fundamentally similar ways with nonprofit entities. The pressure to cut costs in order to have money left over for expansion forces nonprofit entities to act in a similar fashion to their for-profit cousins. Every nonprofit charter operator is under immense pressure right now to expand as quickly as possible and to measure success by how quickly they are able to replicate themselves. The newest mandate from the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation is that we need to close thousands of broken inner-city schools and replace them with charters. There is fierce competition over who will get the contracts, especially among nonprofits. And nonprofits are, of course, allowed to pay their administrators very high salaries as well as keeping a small profit.

And then there is corruption. Celerity, a nonprofit charter school that made an attempt to co-locate on the campus of Wadsworth Elementary in Los Angeles, contracts out all its services to a for-profit firm, Nova, run by the same owner. This backdoor model—of a nonprofit funneling dollars to a separate, for-profit entity—is common. Kent Fischer explained it in the St. Petersburg Times:

The profit motive drives business…. More and more, it’s driving Florida school reform. The vehicle: charter schools. This was not the plan. These schools were to be “incubators of innovation,” free of the rules that govern traditional districts. Local school boards would decide who gets the charters, which spell out how a school will operate and what it will teach. To keep this deal, lawmakers specified that only nonprofit groups would get charters. But six years later, profit has become pivotal…. For-profit corporations create nonprofit foundations to obtain the charters, and then hire themselves to run the schools.34

Whether it’s technically legal, ‘contracting out’ or direct corruption and profiteering, abounds. In their article ‘The Corporate Surge Against Public Schools,’ Steven Miller and Jack Gerson cite many cases of such corruption. Brenda Belton, charter oversight chief for the D.C. Board of Education, admitted to arranging $650,000 in sweetheart contracts for herself and her friends, and C. Steven Cox, CEO of a large chain of charter schools in California, was indicted on 113 felony counts of misappropriating public funds.35″

http://www.isreview.org/issues/62/feat-charterschools.shtml

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@Pride and Joy, 9:04 am

“To Mary Elizabeth. . .What I wish you could experience is the for-profit entity called the Atlanta Public School system. It is corrupt. The local BOE does not have the children’s best interests at heart. They have their own interests in heart and in mind and they act on it.”
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Pride and Joy, first, thank you for your compliment to me, at the end of your post.

About your concerns as stated above, as I wrote in my 9:51 am post, parents should rally together and vote out of office those specific School Board members who do not listen to parents’ concerns about corruption. Another option for parents would be to take your concerns, as a group of parents, to the state Board of Education and, specifically, to the state Superintendent of Schools to try to form a public charter school in your area – if your local School Board will not approve the charter school which you want to exist without the corruption of personal financial gain, and with only the interest of students’ progress as its goal.

In other words – to be rather blunt with you – don’t simply complain about this situation, over and over again, as if you are impotent to change the situation. Instead, take direct action by rallying parents together in meetings to discuss plans, over time, to vote out of office those local School Board members who are not addressing this corruption issue to parents’ satisfaction. It seems that you do not believe this can happen, but it can happen, and the first step is to believe that it can happen.

In addition, speak before the School Board and tell them of your concerns. Have documented evidence to them of what you present as your concerns. Let each School Board member know that if he or she will not address these issues, parents will vote into office those School Board members who will act to stop corruption within the system and within individual public schools. Say this in a direct, professional way, without arrogance or anger, and with courtesy, but say it. Public schools were designed to serve the public’s interest, and not private gain. Change your public schools for the better; don’t give up on them.

Perhaps you, also, might have private conversations with one or two School Board members who will listen to your concerns, as a group of parents, and who, thereafter, will be able to influence other School Board members to clean up the system – where tangible proof has been given in specific cases of corruption.

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@ Charters are sounding good – Technically, charters CAN choose their own curriculum; however, if testing (and thus, how they are evaluated for performance by their authorizer) are tied to the Common Core Standards, not incorporating them in tandem with whatever other curriculum they select would be counterproductive. I would find it surprising if any authorizer would approve a charter without the Common Core integrated, and some have been very specific about expectations on this.

@ Outdated- You’ve got it spot on!

@ Ron – I’ve answered the question for you. Over 2 years, it was 16 schools. There was no sustainable funding model for appeals to the state at the time, and the state did not mediate either.

@ Whoever said, “It’s not your RIGHT” to take tax dollars. That is so odd. I THOUGHT we each had an opportunity to ELECT our state representatives who make state budget appropriations. Of course it’s not our RIGHT. It is subject to ELECTED OFFICIALS’ appropriation. And they have appropriated a very, very tiny portion of the state’s NON-K12 budget to public education, specifically charter schools. How in the world can you on one hand talk about the rights of local elected officials on the boards having their authority stripped when you on the other hand are trying to reduce my state house Rep.’s authority. He, too, lives in my community and represents us. This seems a bit hypocritical, no?

@ Mary Elizabeth – I have addressed your comments and concerns directly (with data and public sources) and asked you some pretty direct questions…why have you not replied? That is what I continually see, that the opposing side’s individuals who are IN this thing can’t debate at all. When they are pushed for factual information or a logical argument to stand on, all they can do is throw up ideological, paranoid, hyperbolic, emotive commentary about “local control” and “dismantling” public education, and other nonsense to scare voters to death. DEBATE ME, Mary Elizabeth. Stop it already with your 30 page epistles and let’s get down to the nitty gritty. And I mean that with all due respect, as I wouldn’t be asking for a true debate here if I didn’t respect you.

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CharterStarter, Too, 10:53 am

“DEBATE ME, Mary Elizabeth. Stop it already with your 30 page epistles and let’s get down to the nitty gritty.”
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CharterStarter, Too, I have addressed your posts in the past, but in all due respect, I think that you sometimes perceive in generalities, and I do not care to debate one who thinks in that manner. Each of us has limited time in a day, and I do not want to spend my full day on this blog “debating.” I have spent 35 years of my life where “the rubber hits the road” with students, parents, administrators, specialists, teachers. I have taught skills from the most basic phonics skills through the highest level of comprehension skills in preparing students for life, both to develop their pragmatic skills for the job market and to develop their higher thinking skills for their own enlightenment and so that they will be informed and aware citizens. (Moreover, in my retirement through my personal blog, I have continued to share the most rudimentary and practical reading skills, as well as advanced philosophical ideas, with parents and teachers, as well as with the general public.)

Look at some of your remarks to me which you wrote in your 11:21 am, August 18, post:

“@ Mary Elizabeth – You write beautifully. Your ideas of public education, although beautifully written, are very idealistic…

The very, very , very most basic things kids MUST leave public education doing to contribute to society and access anything else of value and meaning in the world is reading, writing, and computing. That can be measured, and IS measured. And in many, many cases, our kids are leaving schools unable to do this very basic thing that is the most primary of intents of public education.”

(From here you present a sequence of educational developmental purposes – of which I am already fully aware. Then, you close your post with the following words:)

“We have to ensure students at least get the basics, and from there, they can think and reason and learn to value what is important for a successful life and to contribute meaningfully to society.

We are selling kids short, Mary Elizabeth, and in doing so, selling our future short as a nation.”
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Again, I had spent my professional life trying to ensure that each student – both in the elementary/middle school of nearly 1,000 students, where I functioned as an Instructional Lead Teacher, and in the high school of nearly 2,000 students, where I functioned as a reading teacher, as the Reading Department Chair for the school, and as the Student Support Team Chair for the school – achieved success throughout an academic continuum from the most basic, pragmatic educational skills to the most advanced academic concepts. My awareness of educational concerns, and my professional efforts, have not been simply “idealistic,” as you state, but quite “nitty gritty,” words you also stated. If after all of my writings on this blog, you have not understood that , why should I continue to try to “debate” with you on matters of which I already agree with you, i.e. that students need to achieve basic skills in their education?

I will continue to write of what I know of educational matters, based on my 35 years of direct educational experiences and of my leadership within schools. Those who wish to read my thoughts may do so. Those who do not care to read my posts, do not have to read them, of course; however, as a teacher to my core, I will continue to try to enlighten the public in educational areas of which I have knowledge, and in areas of which I feel an obligation inform the public for the benefit of students, and for the benefit of our nation, as I see it.

My best regards to you CharterStarter, Too, but I do not care to spend more time in a “debate” with you. We all have limited time in our lives, and I do not wish to spend an inordinate amount of my time on posting on public blogs; therefore, I must chose where I will respond where I can most inform the public, in my estimation.

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@ CharterStarter, Too, 1:38 pm

I see I made the right choice regarding debating you, CharterStarter, Too, because your posts to me have devolved into simply unjustifiable insults. That fact speaks more of the calibre of your posts than of mine.

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CS2- thanks for posting the number. I knew you had previously, but I didn’t write it down as I should have. Sometimes, in all this debate back and forth, it gets mind-numbing to keep up with all the information and to sift out what is valuable.

Of the charter schools currently open, it would seem that better than 80% have been, at some point, locally approved. That is consistent with the overall goal of the former commission, which as you say does put them in better financial position for long term survival. It’s unfortunate to say the least that the state has imposed austerity cuts to most systems since at least 2003. I can tell you, in my system, the possibility of getting a charter application approved is almost nil, as we’re currently at the 20mil cap on property taxation and can only project a five year financial survival with current state budget trends. If the state cuts more, won’t make it that long. Knowing that the state has consistently refused, even when it had the money, to follow its own legal funding requirement for traditional public schools, I wonder how trustworthy they are about funding for commission approved schools. In the foreseeable future, most local systems won’t be able to approve them financially, so there will likely be an ongoing need for funding from the state for those schools. How they’ll do that without cutting current education funds further, I don’t know. And I honestly think at some point in the next few years, there will likely be lawsuits similar to those we’ve seen in states like Pennsylvania to force the state to pay its legally due monies to schools, both charter and traditional public unless they stabilize school funding somehow. That’s not a promising start for either type of school.

I appreciate your dedication, even if I don’t agree with all your ideas and pester the heck out of you for numbers.

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@ Ron F. –

P.S. I am always happy to provide numbers if I have them or can find a source for you.

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Luckily CS2, my district has been very open about budget. When you’re in a small town, it’s a LOT harder to hide! Realistically, we’re running pretty lean on the top end compared to many. Go on down south into farm country, and you have a point about shared priorities. Where many systems finally got away from sharing high school campuses, they’re likely to be headed back to that in the coming years. That would set up the possibility of needing a charter school to fill needed gaps. I can honestly see how a regional vocational school or AP “academy” could be beneficial in areas where budgets are too tight to offer AP classes or specific career programs in those areas. In those cases, the shared responsibility would be a benefit. The state needs to restore some confidence and be very up front about how it will fund us both. I’d be much more receptive if they could just tell us how that will happen. As is evident in my posts on the graduation thread today, I’m not believing one iota of what Rep. Lindsey is throwing out there, and he’s dodging specifics as usual.

The legislature is going to have to do some serious PR work though, to get real support for anything with their tainted image right now. And that’s unfortunate for you. I’d watch what they do carefully. While there are some very hardworking reps under the dome, they’re letting the inmates run the asylum and the microphone, and that doesn’t help you a bit.

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Really this seems so simple to me. If you are stacking the deck by spending a disproportionate amount per student for charter schools then on county schools, you are not fostering competition, you are sabotaging county schools. If you create a commision which takes away dollars from county systems, you are again stacking the deck and not foster competition. Carve the funds to pay the commision by trimming fat at the state. Approve every damn charter that comes in front of the commission. There is a per pupil dollar amount that should be set and delivered to wherever that pupil lands. You want free market? Go for it. Prove to us that charter schools will fix the evils of education. Then when they do…whoohoo! If they don’t, get back to reality and realize that the ONLY few things that will solve the problem is actually free, but unpopular: hold kids accountable for their behavior and let teachers do their damn jobs. Admit that there are average children. Admit that some student don’t want to go to college. Make students work for what they earn. That is how my single mother, working three jobs stacked the deck for me.

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Sorry – double diatribe and then should be followed by DOESN’T. I seem to always press send too quickly.

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CharterStarter2,

I am going to say a few blunt words to you now so that you might see. ALEC has effected your life, my life, and the lives of all other Georgians more than you are aware. It has had influence in the creation of this Constitutional Amendment, imo. Most of Georgia’s legislators – I can assure you – are aware of its influence, and it is past time for Georgia’s citizens to become aware of this truth.

Jefferson was a primary shaper of the ideals and values of this nation. He would be appalled at the prospect of the education of America’s young turned into a profit-making industry for the greed of a few, and that is what could easily happen. Just as Lincoln, in his era, knew that it was up to him to have the fortitude and the vision to continue Jefferson’s (and Washington’s, Adam’s, and our other founders’) vision for our nation, so it is up to us, the living, to now know what we must be about in today’s America to make certain that this nation continues to be one “of, by. and for” the people, and not a nation for the corporate, monetary interests of the few. If you do not understand that, you are missing the main point of what this is about.

I am posting this simply for your awareness. There is no need for a response. Thank you.
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From the link below, Jefferson’s words to William Giles in a letter dated 1825:

“Jefferson wrote in 1825 to William Branch Giles of ‘a vast accession of strength from their younger recruits, who, having nothing in them of the feelings or principles of ‘76, now look to a single and splendid government of an aristocracy, founded on banking institutions, and monied incorporations under the guise and cloak of their favored branches of manufactures, commerce and navigation, riding and ruling over the plundered ploughman and beggared yeomanry.’ ”

http://www.monticello.org/site/research-and-collections/end-democracyquotation#footnote3_54erh5f

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@ ME – If there is already an appeals process that is absolutely unquestionable, please respond to the commentary by the Supreme Court Justices who dissented and the Attorney General who warned about the issues this decision has caused.

And…why do you fear the voters affirming this authority?

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@CharterStarter, Too, 6:45 pm

“The state chartered special schools are being given an OPTION (not a requirement) to explore other investment opportunities besides TRS. Teachers CHOOSING to work in these schools will know this prior to being employed and can decide for themselves.”
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You have chosen your words, above, shrewdly, which tells me a lot about who you probably are besides being a parent and teacher. If a given teacher has no other prospect for a job, because of teacher layoffs in traditional public schools, she/he may have no other financial choice but to work in one of these special charter schools. You, and readers, should be made aware that Rep. Jan Jones brought before the legislature in the last legislative session a bill in which teachers from these special charter schools were NOT to be given an option of whether they could join, or not, the Teacher Retirement System of Georgia. I read the language of Rep. Jones’ bill very carefully. Principals in these special state charter schools (formed by this Constitutional Amendment) were to be given the option of disallowing their teachers from joining the TRS. Their teachers would have had NO choice in whether or not they could have joined the TRS, once hired. If their principal said they could not join the TRS, then they couldn’t join it, even if they desired to. That is a regression in the respect afforded teachers as adults with full autonomy, and it reeks of paternalism toward teachers.

Charter Starter, Too, you are only disseminating surface realities to the public with this post of yours. Jan Jones’ bill was a bill that would have undermined not only the choices of those particular teachers in those special charter schools (formed by this Constitutional amendment), but it would undermine the TRS itself. The bill was pulled, fortunately, but its content should tell you, and the reading public, the intent behind its having being created to begin with. I will remind you, again, that Rep. Jan Jones is a member of ALEC.

BTW, the Georgia Teacher Retirement System’s funds are doing well because they are in the hands of financial experts who have the best interests of Georgia’s public school teachers in mind. Teachers, a few years back, refused to let the state of Georgia handle entirely their teaching funds’ investments, unlike other state agency employees’ retirement funds, and Georgia’s teachers have also refused to let Risky Venture Capitalists in Georgia – whose revenues fell to the tune of 40% according to the Atlanta Business Chronicle this past quarter – use any percentage of their retirement monies for their own risky adventures in business, unlike other state agencies, in which politicians have controlled other state employees’ choices, in this regard.

Most teachers are savvy to what is going on, stealthily, to their detriment, by some Republican politicans in Georgia’s General Assembly. Shame on them.

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@ Mary Elizabeth – what about development companies that specialize in building schools? Should they be denied the ability to work with public schools? How about textbooks companies – textbooks (even electronic) are a key component of education…should they be denied business in Georgia. Intent is such a “squeemy” word, as it cannot be measured. What you CAN measure is cost savings.

I find it mighty odd that even with a management company, our charters (both locally approved and state approved) are STILL operating on less than the traditional schools. So if they can manage the schools AND do it cheaper, how can you complain?

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@Mary Elizabeth
I gotta tell you, referencing the “International Socialist Review” doesn’t bode well for your case. Double that for referencing Sarah Knopp’s 20 page communist manifesto on defeating charter schools.

Perhaps you could select a less Marxist source.

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I have to say that CharterStarter, Too certainly sounds to me as if he is really Rep. Jan Jones, sponsor of HR 1162 that creates this amendment. CS2 appears at length on Kyle Wingfield’s current blog-thread about this amendment, making the same lengthy points. Rather like a robo-call. He wants YOUR favorable vote on the amendment, folks!

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Sorry if I might have seemed sexist in my 11:39 am post by referring to Rep. Jan Jones with a masculine pronoun, when Jan Jones is really a woman. I should have written: “She wants YOUR favorable vote on the amendment, folks!”

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I am a bit dubious of Charter Starter’s posts and how he/she contradicts herself/himself. Only a week or so ago I asked her if she was a proponent of the amendment because she had an interest that would allow her to make money and she replied that she was a small business woman who cared about the educational choices of our children and their parents. Now she is a teacher! Also I am beginning to find her posts very disingenuous because I do believe she has more of a dog in the fight than she is letting on.
Furthermore, it was a very tacky move on her part to demand that someone debate her and then write very demeaning comments that were meant to do nothing but belittle another blogger who doesn’t agree with her position. We know you want charter schools here at all costs.
Lastly, having a vendor sell supplies to a school is not the same as a private company running a school. Can you imagine the uproar of schools only used the books that the government supplied! The debacle of the for-profit charters in other states is well cataloged and it has been, for the most part, an unmitigated disaster for the children they are supposed to be educating. Their only intent is to make a buck off the backs off the students. I wish the proponents would be honest and not spout that “it’s for the children” when truly it’s about their pocket books.

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@ Sneak a Peek – please go find the post where I answered you and look again. I have been an educator for many years. I am not affiliated with any for-profit education organization. Believe what you wish, but that’s the truth.

I asked for an honest debate of the issues because ME was so engaged in the conversation and yet she did not address ANY of the issues espoused by others with questions or concerns. I was merely asking her to discuss the issues OTHER than her for-profit conspiracy theory (which is utter rubbish as so many charters in our state have no wish to be affiliated) or Jeffersonian philosophy. Why is that belittling? Because she couldn’t respond?

As for management…did you know that school districts in GEORGIA are outsourcing their night schools and drop out prevention programs? Gasp. To FOR-PROFITS – managing them! Across the nation whole districts are outsourcing their schools to for-profits for efficiency.

Of COURSE I don’t think that public education should disregard for-profit goods and services. The POINT I am making is that our boards (traditional and charter) should have authority to negotiate contracts – whether with for-profit or non-profit – that are in the best interest of their school(s). I was trying to show you how absurd it was to consider the alternative. But you cannot denigrate something with charters that is being done by districts as well. That is hypocritical.

@ Prof – Indeed I DO want you to vote yes! Excellent deduction!

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For anyone who wants to know the real story behind the rapid expansion of charters schools, please click on both these links. The motives of the investment companies are laid out-it’s about MAKING MONEY, and this comes straight from the horse’s mouth.

http://www.rifuture.org/the-agenda-behind-public-charter-schools.html

http://www.rifuture.org/the-agenda-behind-public-charter-schools.html

There are a plethora of reasons to vote NO in NOvember but this is one of them!!

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I have become used to some people – and some politicians – spinning their own fabricated realities for the public, but I refuse to let “CharterStarter, Too” simply spin, here, for readers about not having insulted me, as well as fabricating reasons why I do not respond to his/her inquiries of me, without responding, myself, with truth.

Below is what (in part) “CharterStarter, Too” wrote to me – as well as my response to him/her – on Kyle Wingfield’s blog this morning. I will let readers decide for themselves whether I was insulted by “CharterStarter, Too,” or not.
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CharterStarter, Too
August 20th, 2012
9:40 am
@ Mary Elizabeth

“Do you really expect that charters will hire teachers ‘just looking for a job?’ Ummmmm….no. They are looking for educators with a shared philosophy, passion, and proven results. Also, what your are insinuating is that out of the thousands of schools in the state – public, private, etc, unemployed teachers are going to be ‘forced’ to be employed by one of these 16 charter schools. That is absurd.”
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Mary Elizabeth
August 20th, 2012
10:12 am

“You build a case against my thoughts based on your own dramatic distortions of my thoughts, and then you call that ‘absurd.’ You are playing semantic games with yourself, not with me. My thinking is more measured. For example, a teacher might need a job to survive financially and ALSO possess a ‘passion’ for teaching and have ‘proven results’ with students. And, I am not insinuating anything based on ‘16 charter schools.’ Unlike you, I look to the future – the near future – based on precedence, not on a simple, flat reality of the present moment. There are already many laid off public school teachers in Georgia. They will look for jobs where they are available. . .

But since you have resorted to distorting my thoughts in your erroneous restatement of them, as well as thinking, erroneously, that you have the luxury of insulting me which you do not, I will bid you farewell. Good day.”
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I have previously given my time and effort – on this public blog – to state to “CharterStarter, Too” my reason for not responding to every question or request asked of me, and that is because of my time/energy needs and constraints. Therefore, for “StarterCharter, Too” to imply, now, that my reason was “Because she (I) couldn’t respond?” was not only additionally insulting, but also disingenuous.

Of course, this whole post is, essentially, silly in essence. I see more and more fully why I will not be responding to “StarterCharter, Too’s” inquiries of me in the future.

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I will certainly respond to fabrications about me, immediately, CharterStarter, Too.

Spin that as you will, which you seem to be an expert at doing.

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@ Mary Elizabeth and Others….

I wanted to show you all that not only do charter schools use for profit management organizations, but districts around the state do as well. Sometimes it makes sense. The question for all is, are they getting a good value for their money and is the contract in the interests of the district/school.

http://corp.sos.state.ga.us/corp/soskb/Corp.asp?287318 – Ombudsman is a for-profit, Illinois-based corporation that MANAGES alternative education.

http://www.ombudsman.com/index.aspx

http://www.gsba.com/Portals/0/Publications/Agenda_Nov11.pdf – GSBA advertising in Nov 2011 for Ombudsman (I find this particularly interesting…)

Here are the districts utilizing this for-profit education management company (and related expenditures…available via Open.Georgia.gov under expenditures.) Note Dr. John Barge’s hometown…Bartow County.

Department of Audits and Accounts
Summary Payments
Fiscal Year: 2011
Organization Vendor Name ” Payment
Amount”
WARE COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION OMBUDSMAN $397,767.20
WALKER COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION OMBUDSMAN $695,920.00
JEFF DAVIS COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION OMBUDSMAN $266,960.00
GORDON COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION OMBUDSMAN $279,000.00
CITY OF MARIETTA BOARD OF EDUCATION OMBUDSMAN $581,546.00
APPLING COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION OMBUDSMAN $350,235.00
POLK SCHOOL DISTRICT OMBUDSMAN $621,740.00
GLYNN COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION OMBUDSMAN $721,930.00
BIBB COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION OMBUDSMAN $1,695,597.60
PIERCE COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION OMBUDSMAN $270,074.14
CAMDEN COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION OMBUDSMAN $964,800.00
PAULDING COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION OMBUDSMAN $668,400.00
COFFEE COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION OMBUDSMAN $481,816.00
CITY OF CARTERSVILLE BOARD OF EDUCATION OMBUDSMAN $267,819.70
BURKE COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION OMBUDSMAN $298,662.00
CITY OF CALHOUN BOARD OF EDUCATION OMBUDSMAN $270,525.00
BARTOW COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION OMBUDSMAN ED. SERVICES LTD $369,000.00
COBB COUNTY SCHOOL DISTRICT OMBUDSMAN EDUCATIONAL SERVICES $2,533,587.50
EFFINGHAM COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION OMBUDSMAN EDUCATIONAL SERVICES LTD $271,762.65
DOUGLAS COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION OMBUDSMAN EDUCATIONAL SERVICES LTD $1,450,925.00
CLARKE COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION OMBUDSMAN EDUCATIONAL SERVICES LTD $864,375.00
HARALSON COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION OMBUDSMAN EDUCATIONAL SVC INC $282,735.00
LIBERTY COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION OMBUDSMAN EDUCATIONAL SVCS LTD $884,640.00

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Why not just say that for-profit charters may not apply to the State Charter? As that seems like it would solve 90% of the objections (of course, the fact that the proposers of the amendment have not already done so makes you wonder…)

Also, to explain why local school boards may not be the best people to approve charter schools:
a) The people on those boards power over public schools
b) They do not have power over charter schools
c) People do not (in general) like losing power

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@CS2 “Perhaps you are unaware that the state is upside down with the retirement system in Georgia. Teachers are FORCED to pay into a retirement system that may or may not be sustainable by the time they retire.”

No retirement system may be sustainable due to this economy. Do you really think other retirement accounts are doing swimmingly? I have a couple personal retirement accounts, as well as my TRS account. All are in pretty bad shape at the moment due to the Wall Street fiasco.

Actually, according to my financial advisor, Georgia teachers have one of the best retirement options available with the TRS. Unlike other states where the politicians have been able to dip into the retirement funds as their own personal slush funds for risky financial ventures, GA has kept our retirement money OUT of their hands and as a result, we have one of the few truly solvent retirement systems still in existence.

I think I will trust my financial adviser over you.

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@ ME – Shared philosophy….yes. Schools have various missions and teaching philosophies, so it is nice to have a group of like minded people working to the same purpose. Since you’ve probably never experienced a whole building of people all moving in the same direction since districts like to shuffle people around for expediency instead, then I am sure you cannot relate.

I see you’ve moved to insults yourself, Ms. Southern Belle. Is that because you can’t respond to the fact that districts use for-profit MANAGEMENT companies (with their whole focus being to manage alternative schools)? Millions of dollars are going to these programs….surely in the pockets of these “money hungry” villainous for-profits. It’s so difficult when the pot can call the kettle black, isn’t it?

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SC2,

I told you yesterday I no longer trust your words. You definitely have an agenda. I think, perhaps, Prof is right about who you are.

P.S. The last public school I worked in was for 16 years – half of my career – and I served as a teacher and educational leader to move that school forward, so I well know about a whole school working together for a common commitment – difference was we served every student who walked in the school of 2,000 students.

In other words, we were a totally inclusive public school. You know, the kind Jefferson advocated for.

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[...] was asked to examine whether state school chief John Barge flipped-flopped on charter schools with his stunning announcement last week that he did not back the charter school amendment on the November [...]

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CS2,

In all due respect, quoting a few lines from Jefferson’s writings does not indicate to me that you understand how his mind worked, and I don’t believe that you do. Jefferson is considered the primary intellectual giant of our founding fathers for good reason. He could contain the past, present, and future in his mind all at one time. Women in his era did not even have the right to vote and they did not achieve that right until after slavery was abolished and after black men had the right to vote. That does not mean that Jefferson did not want equality for blacks and women over the course of history. He dealt with his present, while also setting the foundations of egalitarianism for all for the future.

I can tell you one thing Jefferson would definitely have opposed regarding education – and that would have been to allow corporations to take over the education of our young, and for profit. Alexander Hamilton might have advocated for that, but not Jefferson. Jefferson was an egalitarian to his core.

I support improving traditional public schools so that every student will grow to his or her full potential and I support those public charter schools, approved by Boards of Education, that will work with, not against, traditional public schools. I spent my professional educational life of 35 years doing just that so I know from where I speak. And, btw, I do not think in total lockstep with Jefferson’s thinking and I do not have to – in order to appreciate his expansive egalitarian vision for humanity.

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“A wise man changes his mind. But a damn fool never does.” … so sayeth Benedict Arnold and Stalin.

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@ ME:

Another Founding Father’s wise words:

“Power must never be trusted without a check.”
― John Adams

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Hi Maureen!
Ivy Prep seems to be doing some GREAT things with charter schools. I wish I could go to the state approved Ivy Prep up Peachtree Industrial in Norcross.

I’m not so enthusiastic about Peachtree Hope. Bad public schools need to fail and go away. This might be one of them.

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CS2,

Instead of simply quoting a line or two of Jefferson’s, I will refer you to Saul K. Padover’s book, entitled “Jefferson” to read in full. I am not a Jefferson expert, but I do believe I understand how his mind worked. If you read Padover’s book in full, I believe, you will understand Jefferson, more fully.

Here are a few lines from that book, pages 82 – 83:

“The process of ‘leveling’ begun by Jefferson could not be halted, and the ultlimate result was as Jefferson had foreseen and planned: a breaking-up of the power and the estates of the aristocracy. . .
Bitterness was generated by Jefferson’s reforms. The squire of Monticello was accused of being a traitor to his kind, of stirring up class against class, of destroying the sacred foundations of society. Gradually, he was becoming an object of animosity, for not only did he lead the democratic forces successfully, he also supplied them with arguments, which are in the long run the deadliest kind of ammunition. But the common people of Virginia, and ultimately all all America, had at last a champion in Tom Jefferson. To him they rallied, for he knew how to articulate the groping aspirations of humble folk in language that haunted the imagination.”

Jefferson’s words regarding Alexander Hamilton, Secretary of the Treasury, on page 206 of Padover’s book:

“His (Hamilton’s) system flowed from principles adverse to liberty, and was calculated to undemine and demolish the republic, by creating an influence of his department over the members of the legislature. I saw this influence actually produced. . .the very persons. . .having swallowed his bait were laying themselves out to profit by his plans. . . .deserters from the rights and interests of the people.”
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From Jefferson’s words on public education in his “Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XIV”:

“Another object of the revisal is to diffuse knowledge more generally through the mass of the people. This bill proposes to lay off every county into small districts of five or six miles square, called hundreds, and in each of them to establish a school for teaching reading, writing, and arithmetic.”
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Notice the words “mass of the people” and “every county into small districts”. . . “to establish a school” to teach ALL of the children in his day. Sounds remarkably like public education by school districts, does it not?
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Public education can and will improve. There have been huge societal changes within the past 50 years and these changes in society (for the better overall) have, nevertheless, effected public education. Public charter schools can help to the end of improving public education, but they must work in harmony with traditional public schools and be guided by local Boards of Education. This state does not need another level of special charter schools – as proposed in HR 1162 which is now Georgia’s Constitutional Amendment. This amendment will hinder traditional public education overall, not help it.

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“Wouldn’t it be better for opponents to leave this thing alone and just be fair and impartial going forward and contain the Commission’s authority to just these 16 schools?”

I seriously doubt there’s much fair and impartial in any of this CS2. And the fact that the state legislature is in the middle of all this doesn’t exactly bolster any hope for impartiality either. Dr. Barge, as the state school superintendent and a Republican chose to break from his party for what he believed was a worthy reason. Seems his fellow Republicans don’t like when that happens, thus proving they have no idea what being impartial means. There are strong opinions and worthy arguments on both sides of this and the majority will rule.

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@ Ron – only 16 out of 56 schools were approved over 2 years by the Commission. Why would a Commission be any less impartial than the State Board?

The legislature is involved because they had to pass the amendment to get on the ballot. There are some pretty passionate Repubs and Dems both for this amendment. The Supt. didn’t just break party lines, he compromised his responsibility to represent ALL public school children. And he sat back throughout the entire debate last legislative session and did not utter a word of concern. The gentleman is just another superintendent protecting his own.

Actually, we only have about 70 independent start up charters (the rest are run by school districts).

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