War of words escalates in charter school amendment fray between Barge and GOP leadership
There is a lot of back and forth on the announcement earlier in the week by Georgia school chief John Barge that he opposes the GOP-scripted charter schools amendment, starting with an email exchange that I had Wednesday with House Majority Leader Edward Lindsey.
After his strong public rebuke of John Barge, I asked Lindsey this question in an email:
Rep. Lindsey,
Wondering if you have any second thoughts on your initial response to John Barge?
I plan on writing about this escalating battle of words for the Monday education page. One of my points on criticisms that Barge changed his position: It happens all the time in the Legislature, even to the point of folks changing parties. Candidate Deal himself changed his mind on Race to the Top — in a single day. In the morning, he said he would reject the grant if we won and, later that day, he changed his position.
(I was told that a call from Gov. Perdue was a key factor in Candidate Deal quickly changing his mind on that issue.) In this case, Barge says he is not bowing to political pressure, but to the reality of school funding and the consequences to the 1.6 million Georgia children in public schools.
I could list you a dozen changes of heart by your colleagues that did not result in such strong rebukes. Is that a legitimate criticism given that Barge did not see the financial straits of DOE until he got into the job?
Lindsey’s response to me:
Let’s first start off by placing our respective cards on the table. I was a co-sponsor of the Charter School Constitutional Amendment. As one of your avid readers, I know that you have had deep reservations about the merits of charter schools in general and this measure in particular. Therefore, it should not be surprising that I am dismayed by Superintendent Barge’s 180 % about face and you are heartened by it and wish to justify it.
That said, this is not a situation where policymakers simply disagree. My blunt rebuke and the Governor’s comments were justified and necessary to set the record straight in this situation.
Superintendent Barge was not an education novice who campaigned on an issue he did not fully understand when he ran in 2010. He is an experienced educator who was well versed on the history of the charter school issue and fully understood the arguments for and against — most of which being the same arguments we are hearing today.
Furthermore, this issue came to a boil again shortly after the superintendent took office with the Supreme Court decision in the spring of 2011 striking down much of HB 881. In response, those of us in the legislature and the executive branch worked closely with both advocates and critics of state funded charter schools for a year to answer concerns and fashion a coalition to pass the constitutional amendment in the legislature.
As part of that effort, we worked extensively throughout the process with representatives from Superintendent Barge’s Department of Education for information and guidance. Throughout this long drawn out process, Superintendent Barge never raised opposition to the proposals, voiced fiscal concerns, or otherwise indicated a change of heart.
Therefore, given Superintendent Barge’s extensive history in education before he ran, his documented “strong” support of state charter schools in the 2010 campaign, and his conduct on this issue since his election to the present, my rebuke and the Governor’s more measured comments to him were a well needed clearing of the air.
In this continuing war of words, here is a later email exchange between Barge and Lindsey.
This is how Barge responded to Lindsey’s first statement, the one in which the House leader questioned whether Barge was lying during the campaign or now on how he felt about charter schools:
Dear Rep. Lindsey,
Thank you for your comments on my position on the charter schools amendment. As the state’s top education official, I felt it was important stand up for the 1.6 million students and 111,000 teachers in Georgia’s public schools. I fully support creating high quality charter schools, but I cannot support the constitutional amendment. It would be harmful to the 2,300 public schools in the state that have been cut more than $4 billion since 2008. I am a true conservative who believes in limited government and fiscal responsibility. Establishing a charter school commission would go against both of those principles. First and foremost, we must work to restore school calendars to 180 days and make sure teachers are getting their full annual pay. A new state agency that duplicates the existing work of the state Department of Education and the powers of the State Board of Education – while taking away local control and costing taxpayers millions of dollars – is just plain wrong. If the amendment passes, I will honor the wishes of Georgia voters, but I could not stay silent on an issue so critical to our public schools. I look forward to continuing to work with you on issues relating to education in Georgia.
John Barge
Georgia Department of Education
And here is what Lindsey said in response:
Superintendent Barge:
I appreciate your response e mail and I am copying my GOP caucus and others since they also received my first sharp rebuke to you earlier this week. Quite frankly, however, despite your protestations, you simply cannot match up your present stated position in your email today with your past conduct in this area. I also sharply disagree with the merits of your arguments.
You were not an education novice who campaigned in 2010 by actively seeking out support from charter school advocates and indicated “strong support for state created charter schools. You are an experienced educator who was well versed on the history of the state supported charter school issue and fully understood at that time the arguments for and against — most of which being the same arguments we are hearing today.
Furthermore, this issue returned to a boil again shortly after you took office with the Supreme Court decision in the spring of 2011 striking down much of HB 881. In response, those of us in the Legislature and the executive branch worked closely with both advocates and critics of state funded charter schools for a year to answer concerns and fashion a coalition to pass the constitutional amendment in the Legislature. We also worked to maintain funding of existing state created charter schools with the help of your department.
As part of that effort, we also worked extensively throughout the process with representatives from your Department of Education for information and guidance. Throughout this long drawn-out process, you never raised opposition to the proposals, voiced fiscal concerns, opposed the continued funding of existing state funded charter schools, or otherwise indicated a change of heart. This history is what led to my blunt rebuke of your actions earlier this week.
Turning to the merits of your newly minted position, I share your stated concerns for the 1.6 million public school students in this state and the 111,000 public school teachers. Let me start of by reminding you that charter schools are public schools, charter school students are public school students, and charter school teachers are public school teachers.
Regrettably, there have been cuts in state spending on education since the beginning of the Great Recession in 2008 – as with every other state in this country. Nevertheless, education has seen some of the smallest cuts of any area in our state budget. Our teachers are still the highest paid in the Southeast and after adjusting for cost of living among the highest paid in the nation. Overall funding per pupil in Georgia is also the second highest in the Southeast.
The status quo on education in Georgia is unacceptable. The overall graduation rate in Georgia hovers in the mid 60% range and half of the students who come from low income households drop out before graduating high school. In my household, if my children brought home success records like this from school it would be time for serious changes. It should be same for the Georgia’s education system.
Charter schools are not a silver bullet – there is no one silver bullet – but they are a critically needed tool in the tool box for education reform. Confining children to low performing traditional schools with no hope of an alternative or choice is morally wrong in the 21st century, and under Georgia’s existing state constitution we already have a duty to provide a quality education for every child in Georgia.
I chaired the Charter School Study Committee in 2007 and studied charter schools in Georgia and around the country. Georgia’s present system has left us far behind other states in progress toward true education reform by virtue of many systems’ refusal to even consider charter schools or by other systems literally fiscally starving them to death.
Our charter school proposal provides a simple pressure relief valve – not a fire hose – by giving parents an alternative path for consideration of a charter school application. They must still meet rigorous standards for consideration and, if they fail to perform as promised, they can be shut down. (Let me know the last time a traditional public school was shut down for poor performance.)
You speak of local control. I believe the ultimate local control should rest with the parents and the students. Therefore, I will let you stand with the status quo education bureaucracy. I stand with the students and their parents who deserve better.
In closing, let me also add that I will work with you on other education issues in the future despite my deep disappointment in your reversal on this matter.
State Representative Edward Lindsey (R-Atlanta)
From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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262 comments Add your comment
Ron F.
August 19th, 2012
3:12 pm
CS2- thanks for posting the number. I knew you had previously, but I didn’t write it down as I should have. Sometimes, in all this debate back and forth, it gets mind-numbing to keep up with all the information and to sift out what is valuable.
Of the charter schools currently open, it would seem that better than 80% have been, at some point, locally approved. That is consistent with the overall goal of the former commission, which as you say does put them in better financial position for long term survival. It’s unfortunate to say the least that the state has imposed austerity cuts to most systems since at least 2003. I can tell you, in my system, the possibility of getting a charter application approved is almost nil, as we’re currently at the 20mil cap on property taxation and can only project a five year financial survival with current state budget trends. If the state cuts more, won’t make it that long. Knowing that the state has consistently refused, even when it had the money, to follow its own legal funding requirement for traditional public schools, I wonder how trustworthy they are about funding for commission approved schools. In the foreseeable future, most local systems won’t be able to approve them financially, so there will likely be an ongoing need for funding from the state for those schools. How they’ll do that without cutting current education funds further, I don’t know. And I honestly think at some point in the next few years, there will likely be lawsuits similar to those we’ve seen in states like Pennsylvania to force the state to pay its legally due monies to schools, both charter and traditional public unless they stabilize school funding somehow. That’s not a promising start for either type of school.
I appreciate your dedication, even if I don’t agree with all your ideas and pester the heck out of you for numbers.
CharterStarter, Too
August 19th, 2012
3:32 pm
@ Ron F. – There are some districts in this state that are hurting….they are efficient, they are effective, and they are hurting. For these districts, the system itself is unbalanced, and it needs fixing (and is in the process as I understand it.) But…these are far and few between.
What I would like to see (charters or not) is that the smaller districts collaborate on sharing central administration expenses and devote more to sharing services (this happens, but there is a lot more opportunity to do so than is happening in practice). There is absolutely no sense in having a superintendent in a district with 1000 kids making $150,000 per year or more or a CFO making $125,000 for a district of 700. So much goes to central administration or non-instructional priorities that the teachers and students don’t get what they need.
The smaller, rural districts must think collectively on how to be more efficient with state and local dollars, and that is going to take some breaking up of the “status quo” (and I am not meaning that in a derogatory way).
I encourage you (regardless of which side you land on for the amendment) to ask to see your school district’s budget (and a layer down from “function level.”) Look at priorities and where the money is planned to be spent and has been spent. Ask for clarification of job duties and “headcount.” Ask for a market comparison of salaries for the scope of their job (i.e., # of students served). Look at the spending on non-instructional positions and ask yourself if there was a smarter way to skin the cat.
Some of our rural districts have lost so many kids and businesses in their area because of the abysmal performance. Consider if you had high performing charter in the area….the charter and district could share administrative expenses, best practices that worked for the charter and could be replicated, and if the whole system improves, then the local economy improves and everyone has more operational dollars. The “two system” method is not the charter’s doing. Believe me when I tell you that most would be delighted to share expenses and services with districts.
Charters aren’t the cause of the financial woes of districts, and they are at the same mercy of that horrible, horrible words (shudder) “APPROPRIATION” and “AUSTERITY” that districts fear. You are right about that.
We just all have to wake up and realize that what we are doing is not working and we cannot avoid trying SOMETHING that could help. Charters may not be the individual “fix,” but if the movement drives districts to consider new, innovative, and more efficient and effective business and instructional practices, then it has not been a waste. You see, the charter movement has never been about individual schools educating a small group of kids – it has always been about influencing positive change and sharing best practices in communities. It has been about meeting the needs of communities and providing choice where none exists (or it is limited).
CharterStarter, Too
August 19th, 2012
3:34 pm
@ Ron F. –
P.S. I am always happy to provide numbers if I have them or can find a source for you.
Mary Elizabeth
August 19th, 2012
4:09 pm
@CharterStarter, Too, 2:53
“I am unsure why you do not choose to have rational discourse on the issue.”
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I have already told you my answer to that, and my answer before was the simple truth. It was that I have limited time (and energy), and that, as a result, I will pick and choose what I care to respond to. It is not a matter of not being able to debate answers. Everytime one is asked a question in one’s life, one does not necessarily have to answer that question just because it was asked. Do not take the fact that I do not address your posts as a personal insult. I have already spent a lot of time and energy, today, responding to your thoughts expressed of me regarding the fact that students need to achieve basic skills in school. (See my extended 12:25 pm post to you.) That is enough time for me to have given to your concerns, today. Furthermore, your insulting style does not particularly appeal to me. As long as you only see my posts as “idealistic” and “charming” (your words), I do not think that you are understanding the substance of what I am attempting to communicate to readers. (I try to weigh my efforts expended against the results I might achieve.)
Have a good day, CharterStarter, Too. I sincerely wish you well.
Ron F.
August 19th, 2012
4:13 pm
Luckily CS2, my district has been very open about budget. When you’re in a small town, it’s a LOT harder to hide! Realistically, we’re running pretty lean on the top end compared to many. Go on down south into farm country, and you have a point about shared priorities. Where many systems finally got away from sharing high school campuses, they’re likely to be headed back to that in the coming years. That would set up the possibility of needing a charter school to fill needed gaps. I can honestly see how a regional vocational school or AP “academy” could be beneficial in areas where budgets are too tight to offer AP classes or specific career programs in those areas. In those cases, the shared responsibility would be a benefit. The state needs to restore some confidence and be very up front about how it will fund us both. I’d be much more receptive if they could just tell us how that will happen. As is evident in my posts on the graduation thread today, I’m not believing one iota of what Rep. Lindsey is throwing out there, and he’s dodging specifics as usual.
The legislature is going to have to do some serious PR work though, to get real support for anything with their tainted image right now. And that’s unfortunate for you. I’d watch what they do carefully. While there are some very hardworking reps under the dome, they’re letting the inmates run the asylum and the microphone, and that doesn’t help you a bit.
Prof
August 19th, 2012
5:38 pm
Just as an outsider, CharterStarter Too, (for I don’t have a school-age child, believe strongly in public education, and also have good friends who are quite happy with the charter schools they’ve chosen)— it really does sound as if you have a definite dog in this fight. Either you’re a local politician who is trying to convince his/her readers to vote in favor of the Charter School amendment, or you run charter schools yourself. Your own answers are wordy and very long.
As Shakespeare writes, “Methinks he doth protest too much”………
Meredith
August 19th, 2012
6:35 pm
Really this seems so simple to me. If you are stacking the deck by spending a disproportionate amount per student for charter schools then on county schools, you are not fostering competition, you are sabotaging county schools. If you create a commision which takes away dollars from county systems, you are again stacking the deck and not foster competition. Carve the funds to pay the commision by trimming fat at the state. Approve every damn charter that comes in front of the commission. There is a per pupil dollar amount that should be set and delivered to wherever that pupil lands. You want free market? Go for it. Prove to us that charter schools will fix the evils of education. Then when they do…whoohoo! If they don’t, get back to reality and realize that the ONLY few things that will solve the problem is actually free, but unpopular: hold kids accountable for their behavior and let teachers do their damn jobs. Admit that there are average children. Admit that some student don’t want to go to college. Make students work for what they earn. That is how my single mother, working three jobs stacked the deck for me.
CharterStarter, Too
August 19th, 2012
8:17 pm
@ Prof – Of course I have a dog in this fight! I am a public school educator and a charter school parent. I am a taxpayer. Moreover, I care about children, the state of our public education system and our economy. We all have a dog in this fight!
I don’t care if ME wants to write her epistles. Many I enjoyed reading on other blogs over the last few months. I wasn’t being patronizing when I said she was charming – she has a lovely southern charm. But she has not contributed anything to the questions those for and against have posed. The diatribe diatribe about ALEC and Jefferson don’t address people’s issues they’ve raised about this amendment. I believe her to be well educated and thoughtful and wanted to hear her rationale on some of these issues. Thoughtful, passionate people should be debating it.
CharterStarter, Too
August 19th, 2012
8:22 pm
Sorry – double diatribe and then should be followed by DOESN’T. I seem to always press send too quickly.
Mary Elizabeth
August 19th, 2012
11:33 pm
I just posted the following remarks on Kyle Wingfield’s blog in response to a public teacher’s remarks, and I wish to repost my remarks here for the benefit of all public school teachers:
————————————————————–
“Teachers who vote “yes” for Georgia’s Constitutional Amendment in November will be voting against their own best interests. Their options will decrease, not increase. Rep. Jan Jones, the sponsor of HR 1162 which created the words for the Constitutional Amendment that will form a State Commission for Special Charter Schools, also sponsored another bill in which teachers who teach in those special charter schools could be disallowed from being a part of the Teachers Retirement System of Georgia by their principals in those special charter schools. Furthermore, from the link I provided at 10:09 am, teachers should take note of the following words:
“The most fundamental problem with a private model of education is that a company’s profits depend directly on cost-cutting. The cheaper the services they provide, just as in private prisons and hospitals, the more profit they turn. So there is always an incentive to do things on the cheap—poorly maintained physical plant and equipment, low pay for teachers and other staff, and larger class sizes mean bigger rates of return.”
From that same article, teachers will also read that some public charter schools have become profit-oriented schools through the influence of the corporations that have been chosen to run them. Some have even become private charter schools, based on profit, in time. See the link below for that information:
http://www.isreview.org/issues/62/feat-charterschools.shtml
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Teachers, refuse to put your “heads in the sand” on this Constitutional Amendment and not see that this amendment will hinder traditional public education, as well as public school teachers’ choices and interests. Vote “No” in November on this amendment to Georgia’s Constitution. Also, be aware that there is no need to change Georgia’s Constitution because parents, by law, already have a means to appeal their local Boards of Education’s decisions – by appealing decisions to the Superintendent of Georgia’s Schools, within the State Board of Education.”
Mary Elizabeth
August 20th, 2012
1:23 am
CharterStarter2,
I am going to say a few blunt words to you now so that you might see. ALEC has effected your life, my life, and the lives of all other Georgians more than you are aware. It has had influence in the creation of this Constitutional Amendment, imo. Most of Georgia’s legislators – I can assure you – are aware of its influence, and it is past time for Georgia’s citizens to become aware of this truth.
Jefferson was a primary shaper of the ideals and values of this nation. He would be appalled at the prospect of the education of America’s young turned into a profit-making industry for the greed of a few, and that is what could easily happen. Just as Lincoln, in his era, knew that it was up to him to have the fortitude and the vision to continue Jefferson’s (and Washington’s, Adam’s, and our other founders’) vision for our nation, so it is up to us, the living, to now know what we must be about in today’s America to make certain that this nation continues to be one “of, by. and for” the people, and not a nation for the corporate, monetary interests of the few. If you do not understand that, you are missing the main point of what this is about.
I am posting this simply for your awareness. There is no need for a response. Thank you.
———————————————————————–
From the link below, Jefferson’s words to William Giles in a letter dated 1825:
“Jefferson wrote in 1825 to William Branch Giles of ‘a vast accession of strength from their younger recruits, who, having nothing in them of the feelings or principles of ‘76, now look to a single and splendid government of an aristocracy, founded on banking institutions, and monied incorporations under the guise and cloak of their favored branches of manufactures, commerce and navigation, riding and ruling over the plundered ploughman and beggared yeomanry.’ ”
http://www.monticello.org/site/research-and-collections/end-democracyquotation#footnote3_54erh5f
CharterStarter, Too
August 20th, 2012
6:45 am
@ Mary Elizabeth – Let me just take this one point at a time.
Retirement. Perhaps you are unaware that the state is upside down with the retirement system in Georgia. Teachers are FORCED to pay into a retirement system that may or may not be sustainable by the time they retire. There are many, many other retirement investment options available to individuals that would be less costly to the individual, the employer, and provide a better return on their investment. The state chartered special schools are being given an OPTION (not a requirement) to explore other investment opportunities besides TRS. Teachers CHOOSING to work in these schools will know this prior to being employed and can decide for themselves.
It is amazing to me how easily people are led into believing they should only have one choice in life and in their careers. That is simply not true.
CharterStarter, Too
August 20th, 2012
6:48 am
@ ME – If there is already an appeals process that is absolutely unquestionable, please respond to the commentary by the Supreme Court Justices who dissented and the Attorney General who warned about the issues this decision has caused.
And…why do you fear the voters affirming this authority?
CharterStarter, Too
August 20th, 2012
6:52 am
@ ME – I can absolutely understand that you are against for-profit management companies. Please respond…
Since traditional public schools use for-profit companies for goods and services, do you believe that all for-profit entities should be removed from doing business with public education? How does a local board of education have any better handle on negotiating contracts than a charter board? Who is watching over traditional boards to ensure they are not being taken to the cleaners by for-profits?
The majority of the charter schools in our state are NOT affiliated with for-profit management companies. How do you respond to denying the rights of these children and their parents?
Mary Elizabeth
August 20th, 2012
8:26 am
@CharterStarter, Too, 6:45 pm
“The state chartered special schools are being given an OPTION (not a requirement) to explore other investment opportunities besides TRS. Teachers CHOOSING to work in these schools will know this prior to being employed and can decide for themselves.”
==============================================
You have chosen your words, above, shrewdly, which tells me a lot about who you probably are besides being a parent and teacher. If a given teacher has no other prospect for a job, because of teacher layoffs in traditional public schools, she/he may have no other financial choice but to work in one of these special charter schools. You, and readers, should be made aware that Rep. Jan Jones brought before the legislature in the last legislative session a bill in which teachers from these special charter schools were NOT to be given an option of whether they could join, or not, the Teacher Retirement System of Georgia. I read the language of Rep. Jones’ bill very carefully. Principals in these special state charter schools (formed by this Constitutional Amendment) were to be given the option of disallowing their teachers from joining the TRS. Their teachers would have had NO choice in whether or not they could have joined the TRS, once hired. If their principal said they could not join the TRS, then they couldn’t join it, even if they desired to. That is a regression in the respect afforded teachers as adults with full autonomy, and it reeks of paternalism toward teachers.
Charter Starter, Too, you are only disseminating surface realities to the public with this post of yours. Jan Jones’ bill was a bill that would have undermined not only the choices of those particular teachers in those special charter schools (formed by this Constitutional amendment), but it would undermine the TRS itself. The bill was pulled, fortunately, but its content should tell you, and the reading public, the intent behind its having being created to begin with. I will remind you, again, that Rep. Jan Jones is a member of ALEC.
BTW, the Georgia Teacher Retirement System’s funds are doing well because they are in the hands of financial experts who have the best interests of Georgia’s public school teachers in mind. Teachers, a few years back, refused to let the state of Georgia handle entirely their teaching funds’ investments, unlike other state agency employees’ retirement funds, and Georgia’s teachers have also refused to let Risky Venture Capitalists in Georgia – whose revenues fell to the tune of 40% according to the Atlanta Business Chronicle this past quarter – use any percentage of their retirement monies for their own risky adventures in business, unlike other state agencies, in which politicians have controlled other state employees’ choices, in this regard.
Most teachers are savvy to what is going on, stealthily, to their detriment, by some Republican politicans in Georgia’s General Assembly. Shame on them.
Mary Elizabeth
August 20th, 2012
9:33 am
CharterStarter, Too, 6:52 am
“Since traditional public schools use for-profit companies for goods and services, do you believe that all for-profit entities should be removed from doing business with public education? How does a local board of education have any better handle on negotiating contracts than a charter board? Who is watching over traditional boards to ensure they are not being taken to the cleaners by for-profits?”
————————————————————
Do you not see the difference in having some private enterprises do business with local public school systems for some of the needs of the public schools which are – overall – not created for profit, and public charter schools which may hire private corporations to completely run their charter schools? Furthermore, if you have read, in its entirety, the link which I had earlier provided (which I will repost, below, for your convenience), you would be concerned that – based on precedence – some of the corporate-run public charter schools might in the near future change to become private, for profit, schools. To put it quite simply and succinctly: It is a matter of degree and intent. Nevertheless, I agree with a poster’s remarks who posted the following suggestion on Kyle Wingfield’s blog, yesterday:
“Who knows how well traditional and charter schools are spending public monies? To remedy this unacceptable situation, Georgia taxpayers need to see the unredacted reports of competent, disinterested, out-of-state auditing firms which would undertake regular, comprehensive financial, personnel and efficacy evaluations of all publicly-funded traditional schools, charter schools and school systems in Our Home State.”
http://www.isreview.org/issues/62/feat-charterschools.shtml
===============================================
@ Charter Starter, Too, 6:52 am
“The majority of the charter schools in our state are NOT affiliated with for-profit management companies. How do you respond to denying the rights of these children and their parents?”
———————————————————————
You question answers itself. Georgia ALREADY has many charter schools in existence; thus, rights of the populace have not been denied. The state does not need to add another parallel means of establishing charter schools through this Constitutional Amendment which I, and others, believe is as political, as it is educational.
The Superintendent of Georgia’s schools recently stated that he does not support this Constitutional amendment. Do you really think that Georgia’s Superintendent of Schools for ALL of Georgia’s public school students would have made that statement if he thought that he would be “denying the rights of these children and their parents” by not supporting this amendment? Parents and their children already have the means to establish charter schools through their local Boards of Education, which will balance the charter schools’ students’ needs in their districts with the needs of the students in the traditional public schools in their districts. In the public arena, ALL of the students should be equally served. We do not need to go back to a “separate but equal” mentality in Georgia.
Furthermore, if parents and their children are not satisfied with the decisions of a local Board of Education regarding their application for a specific charter school, then as the Superintendent of Georgia’s Schools has stated, those parents can appeal the decision of their local School Board of Education (whose members are elected officials) to the State Board of Education, via the Superintendent of Georgia’s Schools. Moreover, this Consitutional amendment would establish a state Special Charter School Commission, whose members would be appointed, not elected.
CharterStarter, Too
August 20th, 2012
9:45 am
@ Mary Elizabeth – what about development companies that specialize in building schools? Should they be denied the ability to work with public schools? How about textbooks companies – textbooks (even electronic) are a key component of education…should they be denied business in Georgia. Intent is such a “squeemy” word, as it cannot be measured. What you CAN measure is cost savings.
I find it mighty odd that even with a management company, our charters (both locally approved and state approved) are STILL operating on less than the traditional schools. So if they can manage the schools AND do it cheaper, how can you complain?
Cliff Higgins
August 20th, 2012
10:08 am
Let’s get rid of public schools. Give each family back whatever portion of their taxes went to education. Then we can go back to the good old days when children got the education their parents could afford. An uneducated citzenry is much easier to control. I consider myself very conservative, but our pesky state constitution requires the we educate even the unwashed masses. I have voted republican for a long, long time. I’m re-thinking that
DeKalb Teacher
August 20th, 2012
10:28 am
@Mary Elizabeth
I gotta tell you, referencing the “International Socialist Review” doesn’t bode well for your case. Double that for referencing Sarah Knopp’s 20 page communist manifesto on defeating charter schools.
Perhaps you could select a less Marxist source.
Mary Elizabeth
August 20th, 2012
10:52 am
CharterStarter, Too, 9:45 am
I think you should be made aware of my final words to you on Kyle Wingfied’s blog at 10:18 this morning. See below:
“But since you have resorted to distorting my thoughts in your erroneous restatement of them, as well as thinking, erroneously, that you have the luxury of insulting me which you do not, I will bid you farewell. Good day.”
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Prof
August 20th, 2012
11:39 am
I have to say that CharterStarter, Too certainly sounds to me as if he is really Rep. Jan Jones, sponsor of HR 1162 that creates this amendment. CS2 appears at length on Kyle Wingfield’s current blog-thread about this amendment, making the same lengthy points. Rather like a robo-call. He wants YOUR favorable vote on the amendment, folks!
Mary Elizabeth
August 20th, 2012
11:52 am
@DeKalb Teacher, 10:28 am
“Mary Elizabeth
I gotta tell you, referencing the ‘International Socialist Review’ doesn’t bode well for your case. Double that for referencing Sarah Knopp’s 20 page communist manifesto on defeating charter schools.
Perhaps you could select a less Marxist source.”
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I have found no other article that details as well as this article what has been happening, nationally, regarding the charter schools’ movement. It is a thoroughly written and well-documented article. I found Ms. Knopp’s article simply by “googling” the words, “charter schools.” Sarah Knopp is a teacher in Los Angeles. Have you read her article in full? Have you noticed that Sarah Knopp’s article contains 57 well-documented footnotes upon which her article is factually based. Those footnotes are from sources such as: Jonathan Kozol in “Harper’s Magazine,” Milton Friedman in “The Wall Street Journal,” Howard Blume in “The Los Angeles Times,” Howard Fine in “The Los Angeles Business Journal,” “St. Petersburg Times,” “New York Times,” “New Orleans Times-Picayune,” USA Today.” These are mainstream sources.
The facts remain the facts. I would urge you to focus more on the facts, contained within Ms. Knopp’s article, rather than simply on the name of the magazine in which her article appears. BTW, Sen. Bernie Sanders of Vermont is a Socialist. I, myself, am a Liberal Democrat. In America, we are free to choose our political and religious associations based on our own, individual consciences.
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Prof
August 20th, 2012
12:41 pm
Sorry if I might have seemed sexist in my 11:39 am post by referring to Rep. Jan Jones with a masculine pronoun, when Jan Jones is really a woman. I should have written: “She wants YOUR favorable vote on the amendment, folks!”
DeKalb Teacher
August 20th, 2012
1:28 pm
@Mary Elizabeth, 11:53
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics. The source calls into question the validity of the data. Stalin may have been correct from time to time. I just wouldn’t use his ideological philosophy and data points to backup my arguments.
sneak peek into education
August 20th, 2012
1:37 pm
I am a bit dubious of Charter Starter’s posts and how he/she contradicts herself/himself. Only a week or so ago I asked her if she was a proponent of the amendment because she had an interest that would allow her to make money and she replied that she was a small business woman who cared about the educational choices of our children and their parents. Now she is a teacher! Also I am beginning to find her posts very disingenuous because I do believe she has more of a dog in the fight than she is letting on.
Furthermore, it was a very tacky move on her part to demand that someone debate her and then write very demeaning comments that were meant to do nothing but belittle another blogger who doesn’t agree with her position. We know you want charter schools here at all costs.
Lastly, having a vendor sell supplies to a school is not the same as a private company running a school. Can you imagine the uproar of schools only used the books that the government supplied! The debacle of the for-profit charters in other states is well cataloged and it has been, for the most part, an unmitigated disaster for the children they are supposed to be educating. Their only intent is to make a buck off the backs off the students. I wish the proponents would be honest and not spout that “it’s for the children” when truly it’s about their pocket books.
Mary Elizabeth
August 20th, 2012
2:26 pm
DeKalb Teacher, 1:28 pm
You are posting sweeping generalities based on fear, I think. Ms.Knopp’s article is not about Communism, Socialism, Stalin or Marx. Where are you coming from?
Her article is about the charter school movement in the nation. Moreover, I don’t think you internalized any of my last post to you regarding Ms. Knopp’s mainstream sources for her article. It appears that you have made some generalized assumptions based on fear, simply because the name of the magazine has the word, “socialist,” within. I am not “into” socialism. I am “into” understanding as fully as possible the charter school movement in the nation. Read the details within her article. Enough. Have a good day.
CharterStarter, Too
August 20th, 2012
2:28 pm
@ Sneak a Peek – please go find the post where I answered you and look again. I have been an educator for many years. I am not affiliated with any for-profit education organization. Believe what you wish, but that’s the truth.
I asked for an honest debate of the issues because ME was so engaged in the conversation and yet she did not address ANY of the issues espoused by others with questions or concerns. I was merely asking her to discuss the issues OTHER than her for-profit conspiracy theory (which is utter rubbish as so many charters in our state have no wish to be affiliated) or Jeffersonian philosophy. Why is that belittling? Because she couldn’t respond?
As for management…did you know that school districts in GEORGIA are outsourcing their night schools and drop out prevention programs? Gasp. To FOR-PROFITS – managing them! Across the nation whole districts are outsourcing their schools to for-profits for efficiency.
Of COURSE I don’t think that public education should disregard for-profit goods and services. The POINT I am making is that our boards (traditional and charter) should have authority to negotiate contracts – whether with for-profit or non-profit – that are in the best interest of their school(s). I was trying to show you how absurd it was to consider the alternative. But you cannot denigrate something with charters that is being done by districts as well. That is hypocritical.
@ Prof – Indeed I DO want you to vote yes! Excellent deduction!
Prof
August 20th, 2012
2:30 pm
@ sneak peek into education.
I don’t think that CS2 has contradicted herself about her occupation. If you check Rep. Jan Jones’s website, her bio. notes that she is a “former marketing executive for Home Depot, [and] owned and operated a small business.” And she didn’t state that she was a teacher yesterday at 8:17 pm, but “a public school educator.” Now, “educator” may mean a teacher OR a “specialist in the theory and practice of education.” Here too, this could apply to Rep. Jan Jones since she has introduced at least 3 bills pertaining to education before HR 1162 (the charter schools amendment).
To me, this all is additional evidence that CS2 is really Representative Jan Jones.
sneak peek into education
August 20th, 2012
2:31 pm
For anyone who wants to know the real story behind the rapid expansion of charters schools, please click on both these links. The motives of the investment companies are laid out-it’s about MAKING MONEY, and this comes straight from the horse’s mouth.
http://www.rifuture.org/the-agenda-behind-public-charter-schools.html
http://www.rifuture.org/the-agenda-behind-public-charter-schools.html
There are a plethora of reasons to vote NO in NOvember but this is one of them!!
DeKalb Teacher
August 20th, 2012
3:21 pm
Public schools are big business whether they are charter or not. Textbook companies, educational software companies, building contractors, specialized law firms and now educational management companies are all big business.
I imagine this new niche of educational management is booming. I just don’t understand why people are stroking out over the epiphany that public schools are big business. A lot of people are making a lot of money any way you slice it.
Mary Elizabeth
August 20th, 2012
3:50 pm
I have become used to some people – and some politicians – spinning their own fabricated realities for the public, but I refuse to let “CharterStarter, Too” simply spin, here, for readers about not having insulted me, as well as fabricating reasons why I do not respond to his/her inquiries of me, without responding, myself, with truth.
Below is what (in part) “CharterStarter, Too” wrote to me – as well as my response to him/her – on Kyle Wingfield’s blog this morning. I will let readers decide for themselves whether I was insulted by “CharterStarter, Too,” or not.
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CharterStarter, Too
August 20th, 2012
9:40 am
@ Mary Elizabeth
“Do you really expect that charters will hire teachers ‘just looking for a job?’ Ummmmm….no. They are looking for educators with a shared philosophy, passion, and proven results. Also, what your are insinuating is that out of the thousands of schools in the state – public, private, etc, unemployed teachers are going to be ‘forced’ to be employed by one of these 16 charter schools. That is absurd.”
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Mary Elizabeth
August 20th, 2012
10:12 am
“You build a case against my thoughts based on your own dramatic distortions of my thoughts, and then you call that ‘absurd.’ You are playing semantic games with yourself, not with me. My thinking is more measured. For example, a teacher might need a job to survive financially and ALSO possess a ‘passion’ for teaching and have ‘proven results’ with students. And, I am not insinuating anything based on ‘16 charter schools.’ Unlike you, I look to the future – the near future – based on precedence, not on a simple, flat reality of the present moment. There are already many laid off public school teachers in Georgia. They will look for jobs where they are available. . .
But since you have resorted to distorting my thoughts in your erroneous restatement of them, as well as thinking, erroneously, that you have the luxury of insulting me which you do not, I will bid you farewell. Good day.”
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I have previously given my time and effort – on this public blog – to state to “CharterStarter, Too” my reason for not responding to every question or request asked of me, and that is because of my time/energy needs and constraints. Therefore, for “StarterCharter, Too” to imply, now, that my reason was “Because she (I) couldn’t respond?” was not only additionally insulting, but also disingenuous.
Of course, this whole post is, essentially, silly in essence. I see more and more fully why I will not be responding to “StarterCharter, Too’s” inquiries of me in the future.
CharterStarter, Too
August 20th, 2012
3:52 pm
@ ME – You take all this time to copy and past and discuss how I have insulted you, but you can’t find the time to answer direct questions that are relevant to the topic to give readers a balanced view? I understand. Completely.
Mary Elizabeth
August 20th, 2012
4:13 pm
I will certainly respond to fabrications about me, immediately, CharterStarter, Too.
Spin that as you will, which you seem to be an expert at doing.
CharterStarter, Too
August 20th, 2012
4:38 pm
@ ME – Probing does not equate to spin, Mary Elizabeth. I am only asking you to substantiate your position.
CharterStarter, Too
August 20th, 2012
5:13 pm
@ Mary Elizabeth and Others….
I wanted to show you all that not only do charter schools use for profit management organizations, but districts around the state do as well. Sometimes it makes sense. The question for all is, are they getting a good value for their money and is the contract in the interests of the district/school.
http://corp.sos.state.ga.us/corp/soskb/Corp.asp?287318 – Ombudsman is a for-profit, Illinois-based corporation that MANAGES alternative education.
http://www.ombudsman.com/index.aspx
http://www.gsba.com/Portals/0/Publications/Agenda_Nov11.pdf – GSBA advertising in Nov 2011 for Ombudsman (I find this particularly interesting…)
Here are the districts utilizing this for-profit education management company (and related expenditures…available via Open.Georgia.gov under expenditures.) Note Dr. John Barge’s hometown…Bartow County.
Department of Audits and Accounts
Summary Payments
Fiscal Year: 2011
Organization Vendor Name ” Payment
Amount”
WARE COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION OMBUDSMAN $397,767.20
WALKER COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION OMBUDSMAN $695,920.00
JEFF DAVIS COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION OMBUDSMAN $266,960.00
GORDON COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION OMBUDSMAN $279,000.00
CITY OF MARIETTA BOARD OF EDUCATION OMBUDSMAN $581,546.00
APPLING COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION OMBUDSMAN $350,235.00
POLK SCHOOL DISTRICT OMBUDSMAN $621,740.00
GLYNN COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION OMBUDSMAN $721,930.00
BIBB COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION OMBUDSMAN $1,695,597.60
PIERCE COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION OMBUDSMAN $270,074.14
CAMDEN COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION OMBUDSMAN $964,800.00
PAULDING COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION OMBUDSMAN $668,400.00
COFFEE COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION OMBUDSMAN $481,816.00
CITY OF CARTERSVILLE BOARD OF EDUCATION OMBUDSMAN $267,819.70
BURKE COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION OMBUDSMAN $298,662.00
CITY OF CALHOUN BOARD OF EDUCATION OMBUDSMAN $270,525.00
BARTOW COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION OMBUDSMAN ED. SERVICES LTD $369,000.00
COBB COUNTY SCHOOL DISTRICT OMBUDSMAN EDUCATIONAL SERVICES $2,533,587.50
EFFINGHAM COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION OMBUDSMAN EDUCATIONAL SERVICES LTD $271,762.65
DOUGLAS COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION OMBUDSMAN EDUCATIONAL SERVICES LTD $1,450,925.00
CLARKE COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION OMBUDSMAN EDUCATIONAL SERVICES LTD $864,375.00
HARALSON COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION OMBUDSMAN EDUCATIONAL SVC INC $282,735.00
LIBERTY COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION OMBUDSMAN EDUCATIONAL SVCS LTD $884,640.00
Mary Elizabeth
August 20th, 2012
5:13 pm
@CharterStarter, Too, 4:38 pm
“Probing does not equate to spin, Mary Elizabeth. I am only asking you to substantiate your position.”
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I read your words, but based upon the duplicity in some of your posts, I do not trust your words, any longer.
Furthermore, I have substantiated my positions, over and over again, within each post that I have written, in spite of what your words say.
Enough of this exchange, please. Have a good evening. Good day.
Emily Crutcher
August 20th, 2012
6:50 pm
Why not just say that for-profit charters may not apply to the State Charter? As that seems like it would solve 90% of the objections (of course, the fact that the proposers of the amendment have not already done so makes you wonder…)
Also, to explain why local school boards may not be the best people to approve charter schools:
a) The people on those boards power over public schools
b) They do not have power over charter schools
c) People do not (in general) like losing power
MAY
August 21st, 2012
6:14 am
I never knew so many districts in the state were already using for-profit services to help manage their system. Very interesting CS2. I worked for a curriculum company and once sold an engineering lab in Georgia for $130K. I guess Mary Elizabeth and others would hate that I paid my cable bill and bought food for my family because my company was for-profit. I can give you the insider secret about those companies….most of them really do care about making a difference. If they’re AWFUL and no one buys from them, then they cease to exist. Sorta like a charter school.
Thanks for all the research CS2. I like the links and supporting material you give the readers of this blog. I stopped being able to read ME posts weeks ago. It really is Jefferson, for-profit, ALEC, repeat.
I love teaching. I hate what it is becoming...
August 21st, 2012
6:26 am
@CS2 “Perhaps you are unaware that the state is upside down with the retirement system in Georgia. Teachers are FORCED to pay into a retirement system that may or may not be sustainable by the time they retire.”
No retirement system may be sustainable due to this economy. Do you really think other retirement accounts are doing swimmingly? I have a couple personal retirement accounts, as well as my TRS account. All are in pretty bad shape at the moment due to the Wall Street fiasco.
Actually, according to my financial advisor, Georgia teachers have one of the best retirement options available with the TRS. Unlike other states where the politicians have been able to dip into the retirement funds as their own personal slush funds for risky financial ventures, GA has kept our retirement money OUT of their hands and as a result, we have one of the few truly solvent retirement systems still in existence.
I think I will trust my financial adviser over you.
Mary Elizabeth
August 21st, 2012
7:27 am
MAY, 6:14 am
Are you a relative of CS2? Maybe a political friend? Maybe you work at Georgia’s Capitol in the winter/spring?
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If you do, it is quite sad that your sensibilities cannot appreciate Thomas Jefferson’s mind and spirit since you are supposed to represent our government, and Jefferson was one of the main forces which created our government. Jaded unfortunately, as to what our government should really be about – instead of back scratching for personal gain.
I would remind readers that CS2 stated yesterday that the Constitutional amendment’s special charter school administrators would want to hire and be “looking for educators with a shared philosophy. . .” Really? And these Constitutional amendment special charters are supposed to be public schools – inclusive to all? Sound more like an exclusive worldview to me – not at all like public schools are supposed to be, nor like Jefferson’s egalitarian mind perceived our nation to be.
In fact, CS2’s words sound downright similar to the “separate but equal” views I heard in this state 50 years ago. Sounds almost like using public funds for a quasi-private, exclusive worldview school market. Readers, be aware. Vote NO on NOvember’s Constitutional Amendment, especially if you want to sustain real public schools – those with an inclusive philosophy for all.
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About profiteering through public schools. This is what I said to CS2 yesterday about that:
“Do you not see the difference in having some private enterprises do business with local public school systems for some of the needs of the public schools which are – overall – not created for profit vs. public charter schools which may hire private corporations to COMPLETELY run their charter schools?”
And this is the poster’s viewpoint that I respect on this issue:
“Who knows how well traditional and charter schools are spending public monies? To remedy this unacceptable situation, Georgia taxpayers need to see the unredacted reports of competent, disinterested, out-of-state auditing firms which would undertake regular, comprehensive financial, personnel and efficacy evaluations of all publicly-funded traditional schools, charter schools and school systems in Our Home State.”
AMEN to that!! Put your efforts on getting that done, Georgia legislator.
CharterStarter, Too
August 21st, 2012
7:44 am
@ ME – Shared philosophy….yes. Schools have various missions and teaching philosophies, so it is nice to have a group of like minded people working to the same purpose. Since you’ve probably never experienced a whole building of people all moving in the same direction since districts like to shuffle people around for expediency instead, then I am sure you cannot relate.
I see you’ve moved to insults yourself, Ms. Southern Belle. Is that because you can’t respond to the fact that districts use for-profit MANAGEMENT companies (with their whole focus being to manage alternative schools)? Millions of dollars are going to these programs….surely in the pockets of these “money hungry” villainous for-profits. It’s so difficult when the pot can call the kettle black, isn’t it?
CharterStarter, Too
August 21st, 2012
7:46 am
And by the way, I would totally, without reservation, support out of state forensic audits of all public school institutions, including charter schools. I think the public would be mighty surprised…
Mary Elizabeth
August 21st, 2012
8:09 am
SC2,
I told you yesterday I no longer trust your words. You definitely have an agenda. I think, perhaps, Prof is right about who you are.
P.S. The last public school I worked in was for 16 years – half of my career – and I served as a teacher and educational leader to move that school forward, so I well know about a whole school working together for a common commitment – difference was we served every student who walked in the school of 2,000 students.
In other words, we were a totally inclusive public school. You know, the kind Jefferson advocated for.
CharterStarter, Too
August 21st, 2012
9:10 am
@ Ok, ME, I’ll bite for a little bit. You are right. Thomas Jefferson was a great man. I cannot see how the charter movement is out of alignment with his teachings. Take some of his quotes that are of merit …
He believed that teaching should b “adapted to their years,the capacity, and condition of every one, and be directed to their freedom and happiness.” If children aren’t being served successfully where they are, then would this go against their freedom and happiness?
He believed that education was a great equalizer. In other words, that every child should have a basic education to “give every citizen information he needs for the transaction of his own business; To enable him to calculate for himself, express and preserve his own ideas, contracts and accounts in writing; To improve by reading, his morals and faculties; To understand his duties to his neighbors and country; To know his rights and to exercise with order and justice those he retains; To choose with discretion the fiduciary of those delegates; and to notice their conduct with diligence, with candor, and judgment; and finally, to observe with intelligence and faithfulness all the social relations under which he shall be placed.” If we have students in Georgia – so many that are demonstrably failing, then is education an equalizer in our state? Why would anyone be against any educational option which may help the human condition?
I agree that Jefferson was visionary and understood fully the importance of a strong education and its connection to a strong democracy. However….
He also was a classist. For example, he wrote in the early part of the 1800s, “Every citizen needs an education proportional to the condition and pursuits of his life.” He supported, for the average person who belonged to the “laboring” class, a basic level of elementary education. For those citizens who gave evidence of belonging to “the learned class,” elementary education was to serve as the foundation for further study. Those BOYS “whom nature endowed with genius and virtue” should be provided with advanced curriculum in order to qualify them for their varied pursuits and duties in a republican society.”
So I ask you, ME, do you really want to be espousing Jefferson as the most enlightened? His philosophies are more aligned with current educational practices of countries like Japan. That seems an odd juxtaposition to your recent socialist sources. No doubt Jefferson is to be admired, but is he really to be held on SUCH a pedestal? If so, then our entire educational system would have to change to fully align, and you and I would be WAY too educated as women.
I just happen to think we should embrace every opportunity to support the betterment of children and our society as a whole. Charters do that.
Our PolitiFact Georgia team looks at John Barge and charters: Not much of a flip. | Get Schooled
August 21st, 2012
9:11 am
[...] was asked to examine whether state school chief John Barge flipped-flopped on charter schools with his stunning announcement last week that he did not back the charter school amendment on the November [...]
CharterStarter, Too
August 21st, 2012
9:17 am
@ ME – One last Jefferson quote.
“If the children are untaught, their ignorance and vices will in future life cost us much dearer in their consequences than it would have done in their correction by a good education.” Thomas Jefferson in 1818
Do you really want to perpetuate the failure rates of our students by disallowing reform that may actually help increase their competency? What will be the REAL cost to our society?
Mary Elizabeth
August 21st, 2012
10:13 am
CS2,
In all due respect, quoting a few lines from Jefferson’s writings does not indicate to me that you understand how his mind worked, and I don’t believe that you do. Jefferson is considered the primary intellectual giant of our founding fathers for good reason. He could contain the past, present, and future in his mind all at one time. Women in his era did not even have the right to vote and they did not achieve that right until after slavery was abolished and after black men had the right to vote. That does not mean that Jefferson did not want equality for blacks and women over the course of history. He dealt with his present, while also setting the foundations of egalitarianism for all for the future.
I can tell you one thing Jefferson would definitely have opposed regarding education – and that would have been to allow corporations to take over the education of our young, and for profit. Alexander Hamilton might have advocated for that, but not Jefferson. Jefferson was an egalitarian to his core.
I support improving traditional public schools so that every student will grow to his or her full potential and I support those public charter schools, approved by Boards of Education, that will work with, not against, traditional public schools. I spent my professional educational life of 35 years doing just that so I know from where I speak. And, btw, I do not think in total lockstep with Jefferson’s thinking and I do not have to – in order to appreciate his expansive egalitarian vision for humanity.
DeKalb Teacher
August 21st, 2012
10:51 am
TD:
Why have a state charter program? I firmly believe Barge is in the pocket of the GSSA. Otherwise I refer you to Lindsey’s comments (August 18th, 2012 1:25 pm).
This thing isn’t perfect, but it’s currently the only hope my school has at getting out from under the tyranny of South DeKalb.
DeKalb Teacher
August 21st, 2012
10:59 am
“A wise man changes his mind. But a damn fool never does.” … so sayeth Benedict Arnold and Stalin.
DeKalb Teacher
August 21st, 2012
11:04 am
@Concerned Citizen
I’m relatively poor and would like some options.