War of words escalates in charter school amendment fray between Barge and GOP leadership
There is a lot of back and forth on the announcement earlier in the week by Georgia school chief John Barge that he opposes the GOP-scripted charter schools amendment, starting with an email exchange that I had Wednesday with House Majority Leader Edward Lindsey.
After his strong public rebuke of John Barge, I asked Lindsey this question in an email:
Rep. Lindsey,
Wondering if you have any second thoughts on your initial response to John Barge?
I plan on writing about this escalating battle of words for the Monday education page. One of my points on criticisms that Barge changed his position: It happens all the time in the Legislature, even to the point of folks changing parties. Candidate Deal himself changed his mind on Race to the Top — in a single day. In the morning, he said he would reject the grant if we won and, later that day, he changed his position.
(I was told that a call from Gov. Perdue was a key factor in Candidate Deal quickly changing his mind on that issue.) In this case, Barge says he is not bowing to political pressure, but to the reality of school funding and the consequences to the 1.6 million Georgia children in public schools.
I could list you a dozen changes of heart by your colleagues that did not result in such strong rebukes. Is that a legitimate criticism given that Barge did not see the financial straits of DOE until he got into the job?
Lindsey’s response to me:
Let’s first start off by placing our respective cards on the table. I was a co-sponsor of the Charter School Constitutional Amendment. As one of your avid readers, I know that you have had deep reservations about the merits of charter schools in general and this measure in particular. Therefore, it should not be surprising that I am dismayed by Superintendent Barge’s 180 % about face and you are heartened by it and wish to justify it.
That said, this is not a situation where policymakers simply disagree. My blunt rebuke and the Governor’s comments were justified and necessary to set the record straight in this situation.
Superintendent Barge was not an education novice who campaigned on an issue he did not fully understand when he ran in 2010. He is an experienced educator who was well versed on the history of the charter school issue and fully understood the arguments for and against — most of which being the same arguments we are hearing today.
Furthermore, this issue came to a boil again shortly after the superintendent took office with the Supreme Court decision in the spring of 2011 striking down much of HB 881. In response, those of us in the legislature and the executive branch worked closely with both advocates and critics of state funded charter schools for a year to answer concerns and fashion a coalition to pass the constitutional amendment in the legislature.
As part of that effort, we worked extensively throughout the process with representatives from Superintendent Barge’s Department of Education for information and guidance. Throughout this long drawn out process, Superintendent Barge never raised opposition to the proposals, voiced fiscal concerns, or otherwise indicated a change of heart.
Therefore, given Superintendent Barge’s extensive history in education before he ran, his documented “strong” support of state charter schools in the 2010 campaign, and his conduct on this issue since his election to the present, my rebuke and the Governor’s more measured comments to him were a well needed clearing of the air.
In this continuing war of words, here is a later email exchange between Barge and Lindsey.
This is how Barge responded to Lindsey’s first statement, the one in which the House leader questioned whether Barge was lying during the campaign or now on how he felt about charter schools:
Dear Rep. Lindsey,
Thank you for your comments on my position on the charter schools amendment. As the state’s top education official, I felt it was important stand up for the 1.6 million students and 111,000 teachers in Georgia’s public schools. I fully support creating high quality charter schools, but I cannot support the constitutional amendment. It would be harmful to the 2,300 public schools in the state that have been cut more than $4 billion since 2008. I am a true conservative who believes in limited government and fiscal responsibility. Establishing a charter school commission would go against both of those principles. First and foremost, we must work to restore school calendars to 180 days and make sure teachers are getting their full annual pay. A new state agency that duplicates the existing work of the state Department of Education and the powers of the State Board of Education – while taking away local control and costing taxpayers millions of dollars – is just plain wrong. If the amendment passes, I will honor the wishes of Georgia voters, but I could not stay silent on an issue so critical to our public schools. I look forward to continuing to work with you on issues relating to education in Georgia.
John Barge
Georgia Department of Education
And here is what Lindsey said in response:
Superintendent Barge:
I appreciate your response e mail and I am copying my GOP caucus and others since they also received my first sharp rebuke to you earlier this week. Quite frankly, however, despite your protestations, you simply cannot match up your present stated position in your email today with your past conduct in this area. I also sharply disagree with the merits of your arguments.
You were not an education novice who campaigned in 2010 by actively seeking out support from charter school advocates and indicated “strong support for state created charter schools. You are an experienced educator who was well versed on the history of the state supported charter school issue and fully understood at that time the arguments for and against — most of which being the same arguments we are hearing today.
Furthermore, this issue returned to a boil again shortly after you took office with the Supreme Court decision in the spring of 2011 striking down much of HB 881. In response, those of us in the Legislature and the executive branch worked closely with both advocates and critics of state funded charter schools for a year to answer concerns and fashion a coalition to pass the constitutional amendment in the Legislature. We also worked to maintain funding of existing state created charter schools with the help of your department.
As part of that effort, we also worked extensively throughout the process with representatives from your Department of Education for information and guidance. Throughout this long drawn-out process, you never raised opposition to the proposals, voiced fiscal concerns, opposed the continued funding of existing state funded charter schools, or otherwise indicated a change of heart. This history is what led to my blunt rebuke of your actions earlier this week.
Turning to the merits of your newly minted position, I share your stated concerns for the 1.6 million public school students in this state and the 111,000 public school teachers. Let me start of by reminding you that charter schools are public schools, charter school students are public school students, and charter school teachers are public school teachers.
Regrettably, there have been cuts in state spending on education since the beginning of the Great Recession in 2008 – as with every other state in this country. Nevertheless, education has seen some of the smallest cuts of any area in our state budget. Our teachers are still the highest paid in the Southeast and after adjusting for cost of living among the highest paid in the nation. Overall funding per pupil in Georgia is also the second highest in the Southeast.
The status quo on education in Georgia is unacceptable. The overall graduation rate in Georgia hovers in the mid 60% range and half of the students who come from low income households drop out before graduating high school. In my household, if my children brought home success records like this from school it would be time for serious changes. It should be same for the Georgia’s education system.
Charter schools are not a silver bullet – there is no one silver bullet – but they are a critically needed tool in the tool box for education reform. Confining children to low performing traditional schools with no hope of an alternative or choice is morally wrong in the 21st century, and under Georgia’s existing state constitution we already have a duty to provide a quality education for every child in Georgia.
I chaired the Charter School Study Committee in 2007 and studied charter schools in Georgia and around the country. Georgia’s present system has left us far behind other states in progress toward true education reform by virtue of many systems’ refusal to even consider charter schools or by other systems literally fiscally starving them to death.
Our charter school proposal provides a simple pressure relief valve – not a fire hose – by giving parents an alternative path for consideration of a charter school application. They must still meet rigorous standards for consideration and, if they fail to perform as promised, they can be shut down. (Let me know the last time a traditional public school was shut down for poor performance.)
You speak of local control. I believe the ultimate local control should rest with the parents and the students. Therefore, I will let you stand with the status quo education bureaucracy. I stand with the students and their parents who deserve better.
In closing, let me also add that I will work with you on other education issues in the future despite my deep disappointment in your reversal on this matter.
State Representative Edward Lindsey (R-Atlanta)
From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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262 comments Add your comment
mountain man
August 18th, 2012
8:34 am
“Students must never be used as pawns for private profit gain.”
So if a charter school can give a child a great education for $7000 a year, but the local non-profit public school has to spend $9000 per year to give the same child a mediocre education, you would still favor the public school?
What has attracted private profit businesses to the field of education is the ludicrous amounts of money that is spent in public education to teach kids – often without good results because the public schools hamstring themselves by not attending to serious issues that ARE UNDER THEIR CONTROL! Issues such as discipline, attendance, social promotion, student and parent apathy. The for-profit charters have come to realize they can address these isses, give students who want to learn a better education, and MAKE A PROFIT, TOO.
If the local community had garbage pick-up and you were forced to pay $40 per month, but you knew that a for-profit company would offer you better service and only charge $20 per month – would you say that everyone should be forced to stay with the inefficient local community garbage pick-up?
CharterStarter, Too
August 18th, 2012
8:55 am
@ Mary Elizabeth – Thank you for your commentary above. But I have a question. Who, pray tell, oversees the districts to ensure that 1) they are spending money efficiently to the good of the students and 2) that students are learning?
And please don’t say the voters. The people voted in are generally entrenched in the community and so well known in the church and business communities that no one even stops to ask if they are doing a good job or not. They are simply “known,” and thus, get voted back into office. That is, of course, how our system works, but surely there should also be an accountability measure as well (other than loss of SACS accreditation, as that simply punishes the students.)
I regularly attend my district’s board of education meetings and the budget discussions are, at best, high level. Seldom are there deep discussions about how funds are spent (although there is a LOT of discussion about how much is coming in). And certainly I have never heard a district board member ask why the funds we receive do not align with the achievement in the district. Who is auditing the districts? Who is going to hold those accountable who fail children? And who is going to hi-light and benchmark from those doing it right, because I do know there are some of those as well.
We have a lack of oversight of school districts. I want to make sure the districts get an adequate amount to properly educate children, just like charter should. But again, who can define how much is enough?
And why do we continue to allow some districts to show abysmal achievement without recourse? Is anybody taking time to dig into what’s going on in the districts…like maybe asking the teachers what’s going on…that may be influencing achievement?
Whatever your feelings about charter schools or the upcoming amendment, please consider these questions, as SOMETHING has to give with our education system in Georgia.
teacher&mom
August 18th, 2012
8:58 am
Rep. Lindsey:
I am not against charter schools. I have worked at a charter school. I firmly believe charter schools have a place in the educational system.
However, I do not believe the state has a right to override local control. As a republican, how can you support overriding local control and creating another layer of government control?
You ask for ideas from GA teachers but turn around and support legislation that is created/influenced by ALEC and other outside forces. I attended the luncheon last summer. I believed you were sincere in your concerns. Then, the legislative session rolled around and nothing we discussed was addressed during the session. Instead, you chose to focus your attention on vouchers and by-passing local control. I was disappointed.
I’ve since talked with legislators who admit the pressure exerted on this amendment was enormous. One has to wonder….If this amendment is so critical to improving education in GA, why the arm-twisting within your own party? Why
Instead of “improving” education in GA, most efforts on the part of the Gold Dome have only served to destroy morale and improvements. It is time for the Gold Dome to step back and give Dr. Barge the autonomy to make needed improvements.
Sincerely,
teacher&mom
CharterStarter
August 18th, 2012
9:12 am
The statements above, many in number, that there is no need for a constitutional amendment are in error. Just ask Georgia’s Attorney General and Chamber of Commerce, both of which believe we are just one lawsuit away from the state having no authority at all over education, thanks to the unnecessary new language of the Supreme Court ruling. And Maureen, Jay Bookman most certainly did not put that to rest, unless he’s a justice, too!
mountain man
August 18th, 2012
9:50 am
Why don’t we wait and see how the voters vote in November. If everyone is happy with their local public school and don’t want the availability of a second choice should their local school board refuse to allow a competing charter, then the amendment will fail like T-SPLOST. However, if people are fed up with the local BOE’s monopoly and lack of dealing with issues, then the amendment will pass. Let us see. What I hear is a lot of public school supporters running scared that they can’t compete with charter schools.
CharterStarter, Too
August 18th, 2012
9:53 am
@ Teacher and Mom – May I ask you a question? What were you hoping the legislature would do this past session that would specifically touch the classrooms?
And secondly, did you know that one of the key opposers of the legislation, Stacy Abrams, did her own arm twisting and outright threatening of people in her caucus to vote AGAINST it (thankfully many voted their conscience). Political pressure was exerted on both sides. Unfortunately, that is how things work. That does not make it right. Just don’t think it was one sided.
CharterStarter, Too
August 18th, 2012
9:58 am
There is a bigger issue at stake here, which is why the Georgia Chamber of Commerce is stepping out in favor of the issue. It’s an economic development issue – we are not turning out a qualified workforce. We cannot attract business without a strong educational system. We are our own worst enemy and are going to allow ourselves to end up in an economic black hole if we don’t do something. Charters are not the silver bullet, but the provide an impetus for re-evaluation of public education. Our public education system is mired in complacency that will likely never (because it hasn’t’ yet) make substantive enough changes to provide the impact we need to get out of this mess.
CharterStarter, Too
August 18th, 2012
10:02 am
@ Teacher Mom – you want Dr. Barge to have autonomy to make changes. You are now arguing in favor of the state driving change. So why would you think that a state approved Commission couldn’t have the same impact (but not by DRIVING the change, but by allowing quality schools to open that drive that change)?
We (the charter sector) believe that true change comes at the SCHOOL level where stakeholders (parents, community members, teachers) know their school population and its unique needs. Culture, which has so much impact on student, parent, and staff morale, is fostered at the school level. Anything higher than that dilutes the personalization to the school population, marginalizes the voices of the real stakeholders, and at some point, becomes irrelevant.
CharterStarter
August 18th, 2012
10:30 am
Andrea Palm – to respond: for years, I have spoken to BOE members who have undergone your training, and unanimously, the come away from that training with the idea that charters are a bad idea and take public funds away. Perhaps in additional to DOE you should invite the Georgia Charter Schools Association to join your training. I know they would accept and work with you.
Also, since you are so careful to instruct BOE members about the fact that charters are public schools, are you prepared to publicly condemn the largest school system in Georgia, and the recent winner of the Broad prize as the best urban school system in the nation (Gwinnett), for just passing a resolution that says charter schools “divert public school funds away from local community schools support the operation of private or for-profit charter schools”?
As you know, there is no such thing as either a private or a for-profit charter school. It is a well-publicized myth.
Mary Elizabeth
August 18th, 2012
10:54 am
@mountain man, 8:34 am
“If the local community had garbage pick-up and you were forced to pay $40 per month, but you knew that a for-profit company would offer you better service and only charge $20 per month. . .”
—————————————————————-
First of all, education is not a public service like “garbage pick-up,” it is a field of public service that fosters the elevation of human beings – intellectually, emotionally, spiritually, and physically. Educators are not simply teaching facts such as that 3 x 3 = 9; they are inspiring our young to be the best that they can be in all of the areas mentioned. Do you want our young people to think that they are being used for profit, or that they are valued simply because they are human beings, equal to one another, to be cared for and nurtured to their full potential through public servants who desire only that their students reach their full potential? Is it not better to signal to students that service to one’s fellow human beings – without a profit incentive in doing so – is more to be valued in our society than value placed upon monetary gain, primarily?
That is one of the main reason I support public (not for-profit) education over education that makes a profit on its students. It is what we are teaching our young that is of value for them to emulate as we model for them, in the process of how we educate them, that matters to our nation’s future character and destiny. I have posed on this blog, previously, whether Americans will desire to perpetuate the “muscular” values of “winning, hierarchial dominance, competition, and power” over the more elevated values of “service, collaboration, intellectual and spiritual enlightenment, and egalitarianism” into America’s future. The first set of values create situations in which educational institutions (and other institutions) within our society believe that they must cheat in order to sustain their dominant power, and the latter values do not create that kind of America. They foster service to one’s country and to others as well as foster egalitarianism, the principle upon which this nation was built.
Furthermore, it appears to me that you have bought into the Republican negative propaganda about public school education. “Ludicrous amounts of money” have not been spent on public education in spite of Republican talking points. In fact, in Georgia alone, over 4 billion dollars have been cut from public education in the last decade. How can traditional public education improve as citizens’ desire, with such deep cuts happening, yearly? Even if some in Georgia’s Republican leadership state that educational funding has not been cut more than funding to other governmental agencies, I believe – and have observed – that our Republican leaders had cut funding to most of Georgia’s governmental agencies, including education, even before the Great Recession began. Their rigid ideological thinking, imo, has hurt many families and children in Georgia because of its severity. I believe that this regressive thinking has, also, kept Georgia behind economically and has kept Georgia from moving progressively in innovative thinking toward more growth possibilities instead of simply thinking toward more cuts to government. (Furthermore, state workers buy goods and services from private enterprise markets in Georgia so that when these state workers are laid off, all Georgians pay the consequences, not only in their reduced services, but because more of the state’s population, being out of work, are not able to buy from others in the private markets.) We are all interconnected whether we acknowledge this truth or not. How much better, spiritually and economically, it would be for Georgians to at least acknowledge that truth? One primary source of educational problems has been poverty. The state must, again, more fervently address this issue, aside from its educational impact.
Moreover, the national Republican ideological agenda has been to disparage traditional public schools so that more private educational corporations (based on profit) can move into the educational field/market. Studies, such as the Stanford Study, have shown that charter schools on the average do not fare better than traditional public schools, and many do not perform as well as do traditional public schools. Some are of poor quality. Some are not even monitored for quality. So, I do not buy into Republican propaganda regarding the overall poor quality of traditional public education. Many traditional public schools remain excellent schools.
However, traditional public education does need to change and improve, but it needs to do so, primarily, from within through fully understanding and implementing sound instructional principles such as (1) mastery learning, (2) continuous academic progress of each student according to his or her potential to master instructional concepts at point in time, (3) improving discipline, and (4) supporting of teachers in achieving those ends. Public charter schools might help to improve traditional public education, also, but they must work in collaboration with local school districts and traditional public schools, not in competition against them. Most importantly, their ultimate goal must be to improve the calibre of students under their care, not the financial gain of their proprietors.
http://maryelizabethsings.wordpress.com/2012/08/16/a-monumental-choice-for-americas-future-character-and-destiny/
Meredith
August 18th, 2012
10:59 am
I have not read all the comments, but shouldn’t the majority leader have some one check his emails/writing. Doesn’t he(I mean we) pay someone to do that for him? He lost me at “180%”
Ron F.
August 18th, 2012
11:10 am
Charter Starter & others: Help me put together some numbers here. How many charter apps have been submitted to local systems in say the last ten years that were denied by local boards and subsequently approved either by the state BOE or the commission when it was running? I remember hearing a small number, but I didn’t write it down. Those schools that were approved I know had to go through a lot of examination at both levels. Of those denied, I don’t recall there being a lot of publicity about it being done unfairly. From what I know, it seems the applications that were approved have, for the most part, either been successful or not as their data has shown. I’m trying to understand where the push for the amendment to allow the commission is coming from in terms of numbers. If there is a clear indication that the state BOE has overwhelmingly denied charter applications, and if there have been a significant number of those applications denied, then there might be a reason to justify the commission. In all the chatter for or against this, I’m just not hearing numbers that might help convince people one way or the other. I haven’t dug around much, but I haven’t seen a lot in the way of numbers that would show a need for the commission to be created as a balance to the current system.
CharterStarter, Too
August 18th, 2012
11:21 am
@ Mary Elizabeth – You write beautifully. Your ideas of public education, although beautifully written, are very idealistic…
The very, very , very most basic things kids MUST leave public education doing to contribute to society and access anything else of value and meaning in the world is reading, writing, and computing. That can be measured, and IS measured. And in many, many cases, our kids are leaving schools unable to do this very basic thing that is the most primary of intents of public education.
Then you move to the next level of the purpose of public education (which, of course, is taught concurrently with the basic skills), and that is thinking and reasoning. This is measurable, and our kids are struggling with this as well.
And finally, you move to the final level of a strong public education, which is teaching democratic values, self worth, community commitment, etc., etc. These are harder to measure, but evident in more qualitative ways. These values are taught by parents and reinforced by the schools, and we can really see the breakdown in the fabric of both by what we are seeing going on in society. There is a chasm between the home and the school that we must bridge.
The concern most of us have is that we are failing at the first rung of the ladder (and I am not generalizing, as there are very successful districts and schools that should be commended). But overall, just numerically speaking, it is evident our kids are unprepared for LIFE. Our businesses have an unqualified work force.
We have to ensure students at least get the basics, and from there, they can think and reason and learn to value what is important for a successful life and to contribute meaningfully to society.
We are selling kids short, Mary Elizabeth, and in doing so, selling our future short as a nation.
CharterStarter, Too
August 18th, 2012
11:29 am
@ Ron F. The state department charter office has that data, so give them a call for trend data over the last 5-8 years. You can also sort of deduce the slow growth and limited approvals based on numbers of charters. Do not be fooled by that big number that continues to be published (something like 171). That includes system charters, which are NOT the same thing. What this whole issue is about is the growth of authentic, community based start-ups, of which there are about 60. That number has stayed close to stagnant, despite the hundreds of letters of intent and petitions submitted yearly for consideration.
When the Commission was originally conceived of, it was in response to 26 out of 26 local petitions being denied. Interestingly some of those same schools were later approved by the Commission and are doing fantastic. Particularly interesting is that Ivy Prep and Museum School, both were originally denied by their districts, were later adopted by the districts (Ivy for only 1 year, and now Museum School has a 5 year contract). Both schools are very, very high achieving. That, in and of itself, should show that even if the districts reviewed applications in good faith…they can be wrong. Having another appeals body to verify is important, just like it is with the court system.
taco taco
August 18th, 2012
11:44 am
Our country wouldn’t be the great powerhouse that it is without public education.
living in an outdated ed system
August 18th, 2012
12:07 pm
Let me reiterate what @Charter is saying so you all understand what this amendment is doing:
1. It is redefining the state’s role in education, when the Supreme Court added language not found in the constitution when it said that local school boards have “exclusive authority” over public charter school applications.
2. This is local control, but without local tax dollars. That will be the case if the public charter school is not approved by the local school board, but approved by the state.
3. This is about additional public options, especially in communities where the ONLY public option is woefully inadequate. APS has a 52% graduation rate, for example.
4. If you were to point out ALL of the research, you would see that over time, charter schools perform better in states with multiple authorizers. You can NEVER expect a new school to come out of the box hitting home runs. Longitudinal data, which is really not available yet, will prove this out in droves. The charter school movement is relatively new.
5. Forcing public charter schools to work with its local school board creates a moral hazard situation, because monopolies do not know how to compete and perceive these new school designs as threat. This “moral hazard” behavior is exemplified by the controversial, and potentially illegal practices of allocating costs to charter schools that have absolutely no bearing on those schools. For example, the allocation of unfunded pension liabilities related to educators NOT at these schools should not have taken place. It forced one charter school to shut down (Tech High) and caused financial pain to several others, including KIPP. These are facts, and my statement does not infer that I necessarily endorse these particular charter schools.
@Charter has raised many valid points, and this legislation is good for the children of our state. It is not about teachers in traditional public schools. Yes, we have budget challenges, but I can assure you that our politicians understand the importance of education to our economic competitiveness, and they will always try and maintain education funding as a top priority. But remember, data clearly shows that there is no statistical correlation between funding and academic achievement, so hopefully traditional public schools see this debate as a wakeup call that they need to do things fundamentally differently if they are to remain relevant in a 21st century digital world.
Ron F.
August 18th, 2012
12:09 pm
Charter: That’s part of what I’m trying to analyze. How many of those “hundreds of letters of intent and petitions” turned in to actual charter applications that were denied? I’m trying to understand how the state BOE has functioned in all of this. I know the local districts have probably turned down a lot, and in the last few years, I understand why from a financial point. What I’m wondering is how many locally denied applications, not letters of intent, were subsequently appealed to the state BOE and denied as well? I know you don’t have all the numbers I ask for at your fingertips, but I’m wondering if anyone has thought about publishing those numbers. If there’s a significant pattern of denial at the state level, then we need to know that. I don’t seem to be able to find any published as of yet. If there is clear, numerical proof that the state BOE has denied significant numbers of charter applications appealed to them, then there would be a stronger arguement for the amendment perhaps? The stagnant number of community-based charter startups also makes me wonder. How many of those were also denied by the state BOE and why? I know of a number of charter schools that seem to be doing as well as and better than their districts. I have a couple of friends teaching in charter schools. Their performance right now isn’t what I’m wondering about. I’m curious about the process and seeing numbers that would justify another approval body if the numbers are there to prove its need.
This is what happens when it’s too rainy to get outside and work in the yard. Me thinks I ponder too much sometimes.
Dr. Craig Spinks/ Georgians for Educational Excellence
August 18th, 2012
12:10 pm
Don’t know if Sis and Hank’ve ever read Caesar’s “Bella Gallorum” but looks as if they do know about divide and conquer.
Representative Edward Lindsey
August 18th, 2012
12:11 pm
Meredith:
You will be happy to know that your money is spent wisely in my legislative office and no one is paid to proof read my e mails and blog entries. My typo mistakes are my own. It is, of course, “180 degree.”
Ron F.
August 18th, 2012
12:13 pm
“When the Commission was originally conceived of, it was in response to 26 out of 26 local petitions being denied. ”
Were those also denied by the state board? If they weren’t appealed to the state board, why not? I know the commission ultimately approved some of them, but was the commission needed as a means to go one step beyond the state BOE or was that appeal done?
bootney farnsworth
August 18th, 2012
12:14 pm
@ Rep Lindsey
alright, you asked. I’m stating my positions here, in cyber public. I’ll be interested to see if you respond. I hope you’ll understand why we as a whole are suspicious of the legislature, and will need to see some actions supporting your words.
1-allow us to remove kids who are disruptive, unwilling/able to do the work, and (after the sixth grade) have no interest in being there.
2-stop balancing the state budget on our backs. you have a constitutional requirement to provide education, not promote fishing.
3-a real, honest to God independent advocate for Georgia educators. disband the current system of self investigation of ethics complaints.
4-make it a requirement all educational administrators must have at least six years of actual classroom experience.
5-raises would be nice.
Dr. Craig Spinks/ Georgians for Educational Excellence
August 18th, 2012
12:18 pm
Don’t know if Herb’s ever heard of Caesar’s Gallic Wars, either.
Meredith
August 18th, 2012
12:18 pm
Representative Lindsay, very good news, indeed, and I am impressed by your ownership of that which is yours. I may disagree with you, but I have so missed being able to respect my officials. Thank You, assuming this is actually you and not some yahoo posting under your name.
CharterStarter, Too
August 18th, 2012
12:27 pm
@ Ron F. You ask very fair, and important questions. The answer is more complicated. I am not avoiding a direct response, but let me explain why it’s complicated to get at your answer…
PRIOR to 797 adopted this past legislative session, state chartered special schools were only funded on state QBE earnings (no equalization, usually no categorical funding, no facilities funding…and of course, no local funding). That meant schools had to operate on $3500-$4000 per pupil. This, of course, is unsustainable, so the very funding structure provided to state schools made an “appeal” truly impossible in a practical sense. Many did not go to the state and continued to go back through (and sometimes back through, and back through again) their districts with little success.
Also, Dr. Barge recently stated that the state would “mediate” between petitioners and districts during the authorization process. That has not been done in the past, although it has been requested. I can’t remember a time when the DOE has ever sent a message to any authorizer that their authorizing practices or oversight did not meet quality standards for authorizers. And indeed, many of the charters have gone to the department for mediation on other issues and had very little luck getting the department to make a call on things that might mean the district was doing something wrong (that is, of course, their largest stakeholder…but size and might don’t make right). That’s another reason why an impartial Commission is important. They aren’t caught between a rock and a hard place politically.
LD
August 18th, 2012
12:38 pm
I was once told that Commission had the ability to change a petition; whereas the local BoE’s and the State BoE can only recommend changes to the petitioner. If the petitioner did not wish to make the changes, the LBoE and SBoE could not force the issue. Is this correct?
Also, CS2, where do you put conversion charters in your calculations? In the box with start-ups? Or in the box with system charters? Conversion charters should fit in your start-up box, imo.
CharterStarter, Too
August 18th, 2012
12:59 pm
@ LD – The only “changes” (that are actually addendum rather than changes) permitted by the Commission would be on issues that would be impacted for the charter becoming an LEA. That’s it. Same goes for the state. They also have to address the district’s reasons for denial and make a case for why it was not a valid reason.
Your conversion question is a good one, too. Two years ago I would have placed them solidly with system charters. It’s an autonomy thing – the conversions in the past had very little flexibility and independence from the districts. Districts got a nice big grant for a school converting and then either converted back to a traditional or continued to pretty much do business as usual pre-charter status. I have to say that some of the conversions are starting to realize what chartering allows and are testing their boundaries more, and indeed, are being required to show more autonomy to maintain their charter status. So these days, it really depends on the conversion. IMO, most conversions still don’t have enough autonomy to do what needs to be done to really drive reform (and districts let out very little rope). Hopefully that will change though.
Representative Edward Lindsey
August 18th, 2012
1:25 pm
Teacher & Mom:
Let me start by thanking you for meeting with me and other educators last year. I found it very productive as well. Let me try and answer your questions as follows:
1. Why did we focus on Charter schools in the 2012 session? Because the Supreme Court struck down a three year education policy that had operated well in providing an opportunity to local parents who want to establish a charter school to have their charter application receive a second look on its merits. I had hoped to move on to other issues in 2012 such as the ones we discussed last summer , but in the limited time we had this year we were forced to look back and try to fix constitutional concerns raised by the courts.
2. Why have a state charter program? I chaired the education study committee on charter schools in 2007 and we discovered wide disparity from system to system in our state as to how charter school applications were handled. Some were dealt with fairly. Some were rejected out of hand with no serious consideration given. Some were approved and then financially starved to death. Unfortunately, many of the children in the state who could benefit the most from a charter school were living in systems that were most resistant to treating charter schools fairly.
We then looked at other states and found that some were far too lenient in who could charter a school and others were like Georgia and far too uneven. We found that charter schools tended to be the most helpful to improving education in states that provided a second look option similar to the one we proposed in 2008 and are asking to be re-established through this constitutional amendment.
3. Isn’t it better to have these decisions at the local level? Yes. I strongly believe that any state system should only be a pressure relief valve and not a flood gate. Our proposal encourages applicants to go through local systems rather than the state. For instance, a state charter school can only receive state funds to support it while a local charter school receives both local and state dollars. The formula for the amount of state dollars going to a state charter school will be pegged to the total amount spent by those local school systems in the state spending at the lowest per pupil level. This is done to encourage applicants to first try the local system.
4. Arm twisting? There was a lot of lobbying on both sides of this issue last session. In eight years in office I have found that opposing sides of an important issue always believe that the other side is too heavy handed and that their side is merely educating decision makers. Rest assured, the opponents of this measure were not bashful in exerting enormous pressure on members. However, let me leave it at that because I would prefer to keep this discussion here focused on the merits of the proposal. I am glad the issue is now in the hands of the voters. I trust their wisdom regardless of how the vote goes.
In conclusion, I appreciated our discussion last summer and hope we will have more in the future. Regardless of how the vote goes in November, we still have a lot of work to do to on education in this state. I look forward to hearing from all of you and hope that we can find common ground.
Edward
mountain man
August 18th, 2012
1:52 pm
“(3) improving discipline, and (4) supporting of teachers in achieving those ends”
My goodness, Mary Elizabeth, you mean we actually found a couple of things we could agree on?!!
I just remember my case in Cherokee County in 1998, when I had a problem with my son’s teacher – the school system (and the teacher) was not willing to work with me one iota. This is the same time when Cherokee schools were on probation by SACS and a kid was killed when another kid hit him in the back of the head at a bus stop. We had NO alternatives except home schooling or private school – charter schools were not an option.
We finally pulled my son out of the school system, home schooled him for the remainder of the year and then enrolled him in a private school the next year. That private school cost $7000 a year, which was probably the average spent in public schools, and had 15 students in each classroom. They were excellent, and because if I were not satisfied, I could go elsewhere, they were very attentive to our needs.
But the private school did not have to try to educate SPED students beyond their ability, had the freedom to kick out discipline and attendance problems, and so the classes were about LEARNING, not trying to right society’s problems.
Ron F.
August 18th, 2012
3:10 pm
CST: so are there any numbers on how many charters the commission approved in its existence? I think you’ve shared that number. I’m also wondering what percentage of charters were approved by the state board after appeal from local denial. For me, part of understanding the need for the commission comes down to numbers. I get the funding issues prior to 797. That’s why I’m trying to pin down some numbers so I can see some proof of the commission’s viability. I’m getting tired of the sniping on both sides of this, to be honest, and I think people would have a simpler decision if we had some numbers that would show how the commission benefitted the process. It wouldn’t surprise me to see some partiality on the part of the state board of ed. But if there haven’t been a significant number of appeals to them to either approve or deny, then there’s no real proof of their bias. If there are some numbers we can put to this, then a lot of the arguments could be solved.
CharterStarter
August 18th, 2012
3:45 pm
Andrea Palm – I am sorry for all my typos above, and somewhat for my tone. Now that I’m not in a hurry, this post should be more satisfactory…
To respond: For years, I have spoken to BOE members who have undergone GSBA training, and to a person, they have come away from that training with the idea that charters are a bad idea and take public funds away from traditional schools. They are disinclined by training to approve a charter petition for their school systems. Perhaps in addition to DOE input, GSBA could invite the Georgia Charter Schools Association to join your training. I know they would accept the invitation gratefully and work with you.
Also, since you train BOE members about the fact that charters are public schools, I hope you are at least willing to agree that the largest school system in Georgia, and the recent winner of the Broad prize as the best urban school system in the nation (Gwinnett), approved a resolution that misleads voters when it states as fact that the amendment will “divert public school funds away from local community schools (to) support the operation of private or for-profit charter schools.”
As you know – and as I believe you stated above – all charter schools are public schools, and there is no such thing as either a private charter school or a for-profit charter school. The Gwinnett BOE resolution is therefore inaccurate at best and deliberately deceitful and inflammatory at worst.
CharterStarter
August 18th, 2012
3:48 pm
Ron, I think it’s fair to say the Commission charters weren’t around long enough to judge their success objectively. Most of them were still in their first full year of operation when the Supreme Court ruled.
DeKalb Teacher
August 18th, 2012
5:14 pm
@MaryElizabeth.
Charter Schools are non-profit public schools. They hire 3rd parties to carry out various tasks just like regular public schools.
Mary Elizabeth
August 18th, 2012
5:52 pm
DeKalb Teacher, 5:14 pm
“MaryElizabeth.
Charter Schools are non-profit public schools. They hire 3rd parties to carry out various tasks just like regular public schools.”
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There are many types of charter schools, and how each operates can vary, although at the moment in Georgia, you are correct. This can change, however, as political realities change, over time. Some charter schools, later, become private for-profit charter schools, and others can become obligated financially to the profit-based criteria of the managing corporations that run them. This is very different from the way traditional public schools operate. Please read the link below, in full, to understand what is happening, regarding profit, in charter schools, in fuller detail.
http://www.isreview.org/issues/62/feat-charterschools.shtml
Mary Elizabeth
August 18th, 2012
6:19 pm
DeKalb Teacher, I also urge you, and other readers, to read the following article, in full, written by Jack Hassard, a writer and Professor Emeritus of Science Education, Georgia State University, from the link which I provide, below. Here is an excerpt from Professor Hassard’s article:
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“One of the consequences if the charter amendment passes is the loss of local control of some educational policies. If the amendment is approved, then the state commission will run a parallel school system that will take more than $400 million from the already stretched education budget in the state. Money and decision-making are at the heart of the charter school issue in Georgia, not the improvement of education or options for parents and students.
If the Georgia charter amendment is approved it will result in an increase in politics and influence peddling in the context of multimillion dollar opportunities by establishing charter schools in various counties in each state. Real estate investment firms will find a pot of gold here.. Firms will come in to buy land and/or empty buildings (schools, factories) and then in turn lease them to for-profit charter school management companies, such as KIPP, Academica, or Charter Schools USA. Boston recently worked out a deal in the interests of corporate investors.”
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http://www.artofteachingscience.org/2012/08/18/give-charters-we/
CharterStarter, Too
August 18th, 2012
7:20 pm
@ ME and your GSU expert. KIPP is non-profit.
living in an outdated ed system
August 18th, 2012
7:46 pm
Jack Hassard is not an authoritarian on education policy. He is a professor of science education who is merely putting his two cents into the fray. That quote has no morit because it is not support by fact. Lets get back to acknowledging the elephant in the room, which folks like @Bootney et al are conveniently forgetting and the reason why we need more public options for our children:
1. In 4th grade, American students scored above the international average in mathematics.
By 8th grade, they dropped below the international average, and by 12th grade, they
only outscored South Africa and Cyprus.
2. 6 out of 10 low-income fourth graders in the U.S. cannot do math at grade level.
3. In 2011, only 1 of 4 graduating seniors were prepared for college coursework.
4. 75% of high school seniors were unfamiliar with basic facts about American government
5. 30% of all public high school students in the US don’t graduate, and 32% of the 70%
that do graduate aren’t college-ready.
6. A U.S. high school student drops out every 26 seconds
7. More than a third of math teachers don’t have a degree in math.
8. 75% of US citizens ages of 17 to 24 are not qualified to join the military because they are
physically unfit, have criminal records, or don’t have a high enough level of education.
9. Pre-Katrina, 35% of students in New Orleans Public Schools were performing at grade
level. In 2011, that number was 56%. Part of the reason for this transformation is that now, over 90% of these students are enrolled in charter schools!
10. Spending per student has tripled since 1970 and doubled since 1980 but achievement
levels have stayed the same.
That’s just 10 of the reasons we’re having this discussion. There are so many more data-points I can raise, but it is because of the state of our public education system that we are having this debate about public charter schools. Please, I ask all of you to stop being in denial and start realizing that it is time we start doing things differently. This is Georgia’s moment to show the nation that it has the courage to lead in education reform. Do the right thing and stop living in fear that this amendment will destroy our education system. Quite the opposite.
charters are sounding pretty good
August 18th, 2012
10:20 pm
So if parents decided to start a charter, the state commission would approve it? What if the parents wanted to opt out of the national curriculum that has been imposed, opt out of national testing in favor of teacher designed assessments, and opt out of all online classes?
Ron F.
August 18th, 2012
10:27 pm
“Most of them were still in their first full year of operation when the Supreme Court ruled.”
What I’m wondering is how many there were. I know there wasn’t enough time to really judge their success. Any change in education takes five years to show any data worth judging. That’s not what I’m needing to see. I’ll do some digging, but I was hoping someone here might have some numbers at which to begin looking. I think it would help to see, in the years we had the commission, how many schools it approved, and how many of those schools were previously denied locally and if they went through the process of appeal to the state BOE. I’d be a lot more likely to give this amendment some serious consideration if I had something to show that the state board denied a significant number of them that were then either finally approved locally or had to go to the commission. I know it wasn’t around long, but I hope I can find some numbers to look at and use to understand the need for the amendment.
Pride and Joy
August 19th, 2012
9:04 am
To Mary Elizabeth:
I understand and appreciate all your concerns about charters becoming for-profit entities that are not producing real learning.
What I wish you could experience is the for-profit entity called the Atlanta Public School system. It is corrupt. The local BOE does not have the children’s best interests at heart. They have their own interests in heart and in mind and they act on it.
I am an advocate for traditional public schools when they work. When they don’t, there has got to be another option. Right now, charter schools are the only other feasible option for the non-rich. Perhaps in the future there will be other options for quick fixes and other options for school systems that are corrupt and fail to teach but right now charter schools are it for APS.
I sense you teach in another district, one that is successful, so I can see your point of view.
Respectfully (and still a fan of yours)
P and J
Mary Elizabeth
August 19th, 2012
9:51 am
Readers, I want to post my response (at 12:08 am – just after midnight) to a poster’s words on Kyle Wingfield’s blog. I have not read this poster’s point-of-view expressed so well before, but I think readers should consider what this poster is saying. Parents and the general public would never think of telling policemen/women how to do their jobs as professionals, and they don’t demand to know whether the crime rate is down in order to determine if they will tell policemenwomen how to “police.” They know that these professionals have been well-trained in their jobs and that they know how to handle criminals and crime better than the public-at-large. The fact that there has been a massive national propaganda assault, professionally, upon teachers, and not upon policemen/women or firemen/women (who are also public servants) should demonstrate to the public just how effective the ultraconservative propaganda machine, to disparage public schools and public school teachers, has been, especially in the last decade. I am not saying that public schools do not need improvement, or that public school teachers do not need additional training in how to best to serve each student’s needs, but I am saying that teachers are professionals who know how to educate our young with much more knowledge than the general public has (or than legislators have, for the most part) in the area of education, and that they should be respected for that fact, in spite of the heavy-handed propaganda propelled against them. Moreover, I am not saying that parents should not have a strong voice in the education of their children throughout their public school districts. They should have their voices heard because having that parental input is part of what makes education effectively delivered. However, I am saying that the ultimate authority in the education of our young should be the professional educators, not the parents, if schools are to be in proper balance to be effective. If parents are not satisfied with a given teacher’s performance, they should talk to their child’s principal. If they are not satisfied with a given principal’s performance, they should talk to their School Board members, and if they are not satisfied with specific School Board members, then they should rally together and vote School Board members, who are not receptive to parents’ concerns, out of office. That is democracy in action. But – before all of that happens – parents should try to communicate, in good will, with individual teachers. (When readers read my next post, I am hoping that they will see why this propaganda against public schools and against public school teachers has been occurring with such fervor in the past decade.)
==================================================
“Parents, it’s not your RIGHT to take tax money that is used to pay for schooling for ALL children of your county and use it like you want to. We never set up this republic for this. Parents have no more right to tell professionals how to run schools any more than car drivers have a right to tell policemen or firemen how to run their jobs.”
—————————————————————-
Former Republican, as a retired teacher who had spent 35 years of my life as a very dedicated professional, I want to thank you for your words, above, that have so much needed to have been stated to the public, as forthrightly as you have voiced them – especially that ‘We never set up this republic for this.’ Your words are wise, and you speak truth. Thank you.”
Mary Elizabeth
August 19th, 2012
10:07 am
Please read the following excerpt, from the link below, to better understand the business interest in profit that exists within the current national drive toward more charter schools:
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“While nonprofit charter schools are more pervasive than their for-profit counterparts, for the quarter of charters that are for-profit, the obvious problem is that the drive to make a profit will compromise educational quality. And for-profits and non-profits are under similar pressure to expand as quickly as possible.
Edison Schools Incorporated is one of the largest for-profit charter school companies. It ran twenty schools in Philadelphia alone until it was discredited this year. With board members like John Chubb of the Hoover Institution and Brookings Institution, it made a bald-faced attempt to turn millions of dollars in profits by controlling 157 schools. (Not very successfully, though; it was traded on the NASDAQ for four years but only showed one quarter of profitability.33) The most fundamental problem with a private model of education is that a company’s profits depend directly on cost-cutting. The cheaper the services they provide, just as in private prisons and hospitals, the more profit they turn. So there is always an incentive to do things on the cheap—poorly maintained physical plant and equipment, low pay for teachers and other staff, and larger class sizes mean bigger rates of return.
The dynamic works in fundamentally similar ways with nonprofit entities. The pressure to cut costs in order to have money left over for expansion forces nonprofit entities to act in a similar fashion to their for-profit cousins. Every nonprofit charter operator is under immense pressure right now to expand as quickly as possible and to measure success by how quickly they are able to replicate themselves. The newest mandate from the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation is that we need to close thousands of broken inner-city schools and replace them with charters. There is fierce competition over who will get the contracts, especially among nonprofits. And nonprofits are, of course, allowed to pay their administrators very high salaries as well as keeping a small profit.
And then there is corruption. Celerity, a nonprofit charter school that made an attempt to co-locate on the campus of Wadsworth Elementary in Los Angeles, contracts out all its services to a for-profit firm, Nova, run by the same owner. This backdoor model—of a nonprofit funneling dollars to a separate, for-profit entity—is common. Kent Fischer explained it in the St. Petersburg Times:
The profit motive drives business…. More and more, it’s driving Florida school reform. The vehicle: charter schools. This was not the plan. These schools were to be “incubators of innovation,” free of the rules that govern traditional districts. Local school boards would decide who gets the charters, which spell out how a school will operate and what it will teach. To keep this deal, lawmakers specified that only nonprofit groups would get charters. But six years later, profit has become pivotal…. For-profit corporations create nonprofit foundations to obtain the charters, and then hire themselves to run the schools.34
Whether it’s technically legal, ‘contracting out’ or direct corruption and profiteering, abounds. In their article ‘The Corporate Surge Against Public Schools,’ Steven Miller and Jack Gerson cite many cases of such corruption. Brenda Belton, charter oversight chief for the D.C. Board of Education, admitted to arranging $650,000 in sweetheart contracts for herself and her friends, and C. Steven Cox, CEO of a large chain of charter schools in California, was indicted on 113 felony counts of misappropriating public funds.35″
http://www.isreview.org/issues/62/feat-charterschools.shtml
CharterStarter
August 19th, 2012
10:10 am
Mary Elizabeth, despite your excerpts, it is a matter of law that charter schools can only be non-profit public schools. Always and only. Any assertion to the contrary is false, misleading or ignorant. A for-profit company may receive a contract to help with any aspect of school operations, but by no means does that contract make the school a for-profit, private entity. Don’t be fooled by those who have a stake in the status quo.
Mary Elizabeth
August 19th, 2012
10:42 am
@Pride and Joy, 9:04 am
“To Mary Elizabeth. . .What I wish you could experience is the for-profit entity called the Atlanta Public School system. It is corrupt. The local BOE does not have the children’s best interests at heart. They have their own interests in heart and in mind and they act on it.”
—————————————————————–
Pride and Joy, first, thank you for your compliment to me, at the end of your post.
About your concerns as stated above, as I wrote in my 9:51 am post, parents should rally together and vote out of office those specific School Board members who do not listen to parents’ concerns about corruption. Another option for parents would be to take your concerns, as a group of parents, to the state Board of Education and, specifically, to the state Superintendent of Schools to try to form a public charter school in your area – if your local School Board will not approve the charter school which you want to exist without the corruption of personal financial gain, and with only the interest of students’ progress as its goal.
In other words – to be rather blunt with you – don’t simply complain about this situation, over and over again, as if you are impotent to change the situation. Instead, take direct action by rallying parents together in meetings to discuss plans, over time, to vote out of office those local School Board members who are not addressing this corruption issue to parents’ satisfaction. It seems that you do not believe this can happen, but it can happen, and the first step is to believe that it can happen.
In addition, speak before the School Board and tell them of your concerns. Have documented evidence to them of what you present as your concerns. Let each School Board member know that if he or she will not address these issues, parents will vote into office those School Board members who will act to stop corruption within the system and within individual public schools. Say this in a direct, professional way, without arrogance or anger, and with courtesy, but say it. Public schools were designed to serve the public’s interest, and not private gain. Change your public schools for the better; don’t give up on them.
Perhaps you, also, might have private conversations with one or two School Board members who will listen to your concerns, as a group of parents, and who, thereafter, will be able to influence other School Board members to clean up the system – where tangible proof has been given in specific cases of corruption.
Mary Elizabeth
August 19th, 2012
10:46 am
Charter Starter, don’t be fooled by those who have an interest in profiteering, using children to do so.
CharterStarter, Too
August 19th, 2012
10:53 am
@ Charters are sounding good – Technically, charters CAN choose their own curriculum; however, if testing (and thus, how they are evaluated for performance by their authorizer) are tied to the Common Core Standards, not incorporating them in tandem with whatever other curriculum they select would be counterproductive. I would find it surprising if any authorizer would approve a charter without the Common Core integrated, and some have been very specific about expectations on this.
@ Outdated- You’ve got it spot on!
@ Ron – I’ve answered the question for you. Over 2 years, it was 16 schools. There was no sustainable funding model for appeals to the state at the time, and the state did not mediate either.
@ Whoever said, “It’s not your RIGHT” to take tax dollars. That is so odd. I THOUGHT we each had an opportunity to ELECT our state representatives who make state budget appropriations. Of course it’s not our RIGHT. It is subject to ELECTED OFFICIALS’ appropriation. And they have appropriated a very, very tiny portion of the state’s NON-K12 budget to public education, specifically charter schools. How in the world can you on one hand talk about the rights of local elected officials on the boards having their authority stripped when you on the other hand are trying to reduce my state house Rep.’s authority. He, too, lives in my community and represents us. This seems a bit hypocritical, no?
@ Mary Elizabeth – I have addressed your comments and concerns directly (with data and public sources) and asked you some pretty direct questions…why have you not replied? That is what I continually see, that the opposing side’s individuals who are IN this thing can’t debate at all. When they are pushed for factual information or a logical argument to stand on, all they can do is throw up ideological, paranoid, hyperbolic, emotive commentary about “local control” and “dismantling” public education, and other nonsense to scare voters to death. DEBATE ME, Mary Elizabeth. Stop it already with your 30 page epistles and let’s get down to the nitty gritty. And I mean that with all due respect, as I wouldn’t be asking for a true debate here if I didn’t respect you.
CharterStarter, Too
August 19th, 2012
10:54 am
Escuse my typo – if testing IS tied…. if I missed anything else, please excuse.
Mary Elizabeth
August 19th, 2012
12:25 pm
CharterStarter, Too, 10:53 am
“DEBATE ME, Mary Elizabeth. Stop it already with your 30 page epistles and let’s get down to the nitty gritty.”
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CharterStarter, Too, I have addressed your posts in the past, but in all due respect, I think that you sometimes perceive in generalities, and I do not care to debate one who thinks in that manner. Each of us has limited time in a day, and I do not want to spend my full day on this blog “debating.” I have spent 35 years of my life where “the rubber hits the road” with students, parents, administrators, specialists, teachers. I have taught skills from the most basic phonics skills through the highest level of comprehension skills in preparing students for life, both to develop their pragmatic skills for the job market and to develop their higher thinking skills for their own enlightenment and so that they will be informed and aware citizens. (Moreover, in my retirement through my personal blog, I have continued to share the most rudimentary and practical reading skills, as well as advanced philosophical ideas, with parents and teachers, as well as with the general public.)
Look at some of your remarks to me which you wrote in your 11:21 am, August 18, post:
“@ Mary Elizabeth – You write beautifully. Your ideas of public education, although beautifully written, are very idealistic…
The very, very , very most basic things kids MUST leave public education doing to contribute to society and access anything else of value and meaning in the world is reading, writing, and computing. That can be measured, and IS measured. And in many, many cases, our kids are leaving schools unable to do this very basic thing that is the most primary of intents of public education.”
(From here you present a sequence of educational developmental purposes – of which I am already fully aware. Then, you close your post with the following words:)
“We have to ensure students at least get the basics, and from there, they can think and reason and learn to value what is important for a successful life and to contribute meaningfully to society.
We are selling kids short, Mary Elizabeth, and in doing so, selling our future short as a nation.”
======================================
Again, I had spent my professional life trying to ensure that each student – both in the elementary/middle school of nearly 1,000 students, where I functioned as an Instructional Lead Teacher, and in the high school of nearly 2,000 students, where I functioned as a reading teacher, as the Reading Department Chair for the school, and as the Student Support Team Chair for the school – achieved success throughout an academic continuum from the most basic, pragmatic educational skills to the most advanced academic concepts. My awareness of educational concerns, and my professional efforts, have not been simply “idealistic,” as you state, but quite “nitty gritty,” words you also stated. If after all of my writings on this blog, you have not understood that , why should I continue to try to “debate” with you on matters of which I already agree with you, i.e. that students need to achieve basic skills in their education?
I will continue to write of what I know of educational matters, based on my 35 years of direct educational experiences and of my leadership within schools. Those who wish to read my thoughts may do so. Those who do not care to read my posts, do not have to read them, of course; however, as a teacher to my core, I will continue to try to enlighten the public in educational areas of which I have knowledge, and in areas of which I feel an obligation inform the public for the benefit of students, and for the benefit of our nation, as I see it.
My best regards to you CharterStarter, Too, but I do not care to spend more time in a “debate” with you. We all have limited time in our lives, and I do not wish to spend an inordinate amount of my time on posting on public blogs; therefore, I must chose where I will respond where I can most inform the public, in my estimation.
CharterStarter, Too
August 19th, 2012
1:38 pm
@ ME – What you mean, then, is that you CAN’T address specific issues related to the amendment. All that you have continued to do, in your well written, charming manner, is to repeat yourself and link everyone to essays and propagandized links on the “big bad boogie man” for-profits (that are a very small percentage of our charter landscape and our loss of Jeffersonian values, etc., etc. If that is all that you have to offer on the matter, and you cannot address the real, and important questions being posed by either side, then, the information you are providing at this point is really quite irrelevant to the topic at hand. All the best to you as well in whatever pursuit you hope to accomplish with these two main topics copied and pasted from blog to blog.
Mary Elizabeth
August 19th, 2012
2:40 pm
@ CharterStarter, Too, 1:38 pm
I see I made the right choice regarding debating you, CharterStarter, Too, because your posts to me have devolved into simply unjustifiable insults. That fact speaks more of the calibre of your posts than of mine.
CharterStarter, Too
August 19th, 2012
2:53 pm
@ Mary Elizabeth – I am not insulting you, or at least I am not intending to be insulting. I am stating the truth.
1. You have NOT addressed any issue brought forth on either side.
2. The 2 main topics you talk about are for-profit driven motives/ALEC and Jeffersonian values.
3. You do copy and paste your posts from blog to blog.
I asked you to answer direct questions I had related to the topic at hand, and you ignored me outright. The questions and comments I had were fair and straightforward. That tells me that you either don’t know the answer (which is just fine) OR you are fearful of answering because your arguments don’t hold water when looking beneath the surface.
I believe strongly in the value of rational discourse (i.e., debate) where both parties set forth their best arguments for public consumption. That is how the public will understand the issue most fully and think through the merits of both sides. I am unsure why you do not choose to have rational discourse on the issue.