War of words escalates in charter school amendment fray between Barge and GOP leadership
There is a lot of back and forth on the announcement earlier in the week by Georgia school chief John Barge that he opposes the GOP-scripted charter schools amendment, starting with an email exchange that I had Wednesday with House Majority Leader Edward Lindsey.
After his strong public rebuke of John Barge, I asked Lindsey this question in an email:
Rep. Lindsey,
Wondering if you have any second thoughts on your initial response to John Barge?
I plan on writing about this escalating battle of words for the Monday education page. One of my points on criticisms that Barge changed his position: It happens all the time in the Legislature, even to the point of folks changing parties. Candidate Deal himself changed his mind on Race to the Top — in a single day. In the morning, he said he would reject the grant if we won and, later that day, he changed his position.
(I was told that a call from Gov. Perdue was a key factor in Candidate Deal quickly changing his mind on that issue.) In this case, Barge says he is not bowing to political pressure, but to the reality of school funding and the consequences to the 1.6 million Georgia children in public schools.
I could list you a dozen changes of heart by your colleagues that did not result in such strong rebukes. Is that a legitimate criticism given that Barge did not see the financial straits of DOE until he got into the job?
Lindsey’s response to me:
Let’s first start off by placing our respective cards on the table. I was a co-sponsor of the Charter School Constitutional Amendment. As one of your avid readers, I know that you have had deep reservations about the merits of charter schools in general and this measure in particular. Therefore, it should not be surprising that I am dismayed by Superintendent Barge’s 180 % about face and you are heartened by it and wish to justify it.
That said, this is not a situation where policymakers simply disagree. My blunt rebuke and the Governor’s comments were justified and necessary to set the record straight in this situation.
Superintendent Barge was not an education novice who campaigned on an issue he did not fully understand when he ran in 2010. He is an experienced educator who was well versed on the history of the charter school issue and fully understood the arguments for and against — most of which being the same arguments we are hearing today.
Furthermore, this issue came to a boil again shortly after the superintendent took office with the Supreme Court decision in the spring of 2011 striking down much of HB 881. In response, those of us in the legislature and the executive branch worked closely with both advocates and critics of state funded charter schools for a year to answer concerns and fashion a coalition to pass the constitutional amendment in the legislature.
As part of that effort, we worked extensively throughout the process with representatives from Superintendent Barge’s Department of Education for information and guidance. Throughout this long drawn out process, Superintendent Barge never raised opposition to the proposals, voiced fiscal concerns, or otherwise indicated a change of heart.
Therefore, given Superintendent Barge’s extensive history in education before he ran, his documented “strong” support of state charter schools in the 2010 campaign, and his conduct on this issue since his election to the present, my rebuke and the Governor’s more measured comments to him were a well needed clearing of the air.
In this continuing war of words, here is a later email exchange between Barge and Lindsey.
This is how Barge responded to Lindsey’s first statement, the one in which the House leader questioned whether Barge was lying during the campaign or now on how he felt about charter schools:
Dear Rep. Lindsey,
Thank you for your comments on my position on the charter schools amendment. As the state’s top education official, I felt it was important stand up for the 1.6 million students and 111,000 teachers in Georgia’s public schools. I fully support creating high quality charter schools, but I cannot support the constitutional amendment. It would be harmful to the 2,300 public schools in the state that have been cut more than $4 billion since 2008. I am a true conservative who believes in limited government and fiscal responsibility. Establishing a charter school commission would go against both of those principles. First and foremost, we must work to restore school calendars to 180 days and make sure teachers are getting their full annual pay. A new state agency that duplicates the existing work of the state Department of Education and the powers of the State Board of Education – while taking away local control and costing taxpayers millions of dollars – is just plain wrong. If the amendment passes, I will honor the wishes of Georgia voters, but I could not stay silent on an issue so critical to our public schools. I look forward to continuing to work with you on issues relating to education in Georgia.
John Barge
Georgia Department of Education
And here is what Lindsey said in response:
Superintendent Barge:
I appreciate your response e mail and I am copying my GOP caucus and others since they also received my first sharp rebuke to you earlier this week. Quite frankly, however, despite your protestations, you simply cannot match up your present stated position in your email today with your past conduct in this area. I also sharply disagree with the merits of your arguments.
You were not an education novice who campaigned in 2010 by actively seeking out support from charter school advocates and indicated “strong support for state created charter schools. You are an experienced educator who was well versed on the history of the state supported charter school issue and fully understood at that time the arguments for and against — most of which being the same arguments we are hearing today.
Furthermore, this issue returned to a boil again shortly after you took office with the Supreme Court decision in the spring of 2011 striking down much of HB 881. In response, those of us in the Legislature and the executive branch worked closely with both advocates and critics of state funded charter schools for a year to answer concerns and fashion a coalition to pass the constitutional amendment in the Legislature. We also worked to maintain funding of existing state created charter schools with the help of your department.
As part of that effort, we also worked extensively throughout the process with representatives from your Department of Education for information and guidance. Throughout this long drawn-out process, you never raised opposition to the proposals, voiced fiscal concerns, opposed the continued funding of existing state funded charter schools, or otherwise indicated a change of heart. This history is what led to my blunt rebuke of your actions earlier this week.
Turning to the merits of your newly minted position, I share your stated concerns for the 1.6 million public school students in this state and the 111,000 public school teachers. Let me start of by reminding you that charter schools are public schools, charter school students are public school students, and charter school teachers are public school teachers.
Regrettably, there have been cuts in state spending on education since the beginning of the Great Recession in 2008 – as with every other state in this country. Nevertheless, education has seen some of the smallest cuts of any area in our state budget. Our teachers are still the highest paid in the Southeast and after adjusting for cost of living among the highest paid in the nation. Overall funding per pupil in Georgia is also the second highest in the Southeast.
The status quo on education in Georgia is unacceptable. The overall graduation rate in Georgia hovers in the mid 60% range and half of the students who come from low income households drop out before graduating high school. In my household, if my children brought home success records like this from school it would be time for serious changes. It should be same for the Georgia’s education system.
Charter schools are not a silver bullet – there is no one silver bullet – but they are a critically needed tool in the tool box for education reform. Confining children to low performing traditional schools with no hope of an alternative or choice is morally wrong in the 21st century, and under Georgia’s existing state constitution we already have a duty to provide a quality education for every child in Georgia.
I chaired the Charter School Study Committee in 2007 and studied charter schools in Georgia and around the country. Georgia’s present system has left us far behind other states in progress toward true education reform by virtue of many systems’ refusal to even consider charter schools or by other systems literally fiscally starving them to death.
Our charter school proposal provides a simple pressure relief valve – not a fire hose – by giving parents an alternative path for consideration of a charter school application. They must still meet rigorous standards for consideration and, if they fail to perform as promised, they can be shut down. (Let me know the last time a traditional public school was shut down for poor performance.)
You speak of local control. I believe the ultimate local control should rest with the parents and the students. Therefore, I will let you stand with the status quo education bureaucracy. I stand with the students and their parents who deserve better.
In closing, let me also add that I will work with you on other education issues in the future despite my deep disappointment in your reversal on this matter.
State Representative Edward Lindsey (R-Atlanta)
From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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262 comments Add your comment
LD
August 17th, 2012
11:07 am
@Charter Starter: from your 9:55AM post: If I accept that Georgia needs to amend its Constitution, I do not see how a new commission appointed by state elected officers does not “put control at state level” and how this is not creating a new bureaucracy.
CTR
August 17th, 2012
11:08 am
@3schoolkids
Here’s cherokee’s budget for this year if you are interested.
http://www.cherokeecharter.org/governance/default.html
It’s at the bottom.
I believe they would provide you with last years numbers. By the way, this amendment would mean that no local funds are diverted from traditional schools to charters. I agree that throwing money at problems don’t fix them. I don’t know what schools you refer to, but my son’s school, is satisfied with their current funding if this amendment passes. I don’t believe they are asking for more. Also you might be interested to hear that many charter teachers make a little less than their public counterparts and many are happy to do so in exchange for working at charters.
Also at the bottom of this link (http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2012/08/14/governors-deputy-charters-still-operate-with-less-funds-than-traditional-schools/) you can find the per student financials you are looking for I think.
Chunter
August 17th, 2012
11:15 am
Disagreement within the opposite party. A field day for Maureen, and for the teachers’ unions dumping big money into defeating this latest initiative to give parents more choices!
If the amendment passes, after all, the union strategy of fielding phony “Republicans” in local school board races to doom all charter school applications—will ultimately prove less fruitful.
Parents and kids be damned, eh?
Ron F.
August 17th, 2012
11:16 am
Soooo, let me get this straight. If you change your mind and you DON’T support the legislature, you’re wrong, you’re a fool, and you deserve public flogging on the steps of the capitol. If you change your mind and support the legislature, you’ve seen the light, you’ve enlightened yourself, and God’s plentiful blessings will flow down upon you via legislative favor.
….uhhhhmmmm, I’ll take flogging for 100, Alex.
Chuntter
August 17th, 2012
11:18 am
Disagreement within the opposite party. A field day for Maureen, and for the teachers’ unions dumping big money into defeating this latest initiative to give parents more choices!
If the amendment passes, after all, the union strategy of fielding phony “Republicans” in local school board races to doom all charter school applications—will ultimately prove less fruitful.
Parents and kids be damned, eh?
Beverly Fraud
August 17th, 2012
11:19 am
WE DO NOT WANT TO FIX THE SCHOOLS! Period.
ONE bill would change EVERYTHING.
Each year, the staff of a school will be (anonymously) to two items.
Did the principal support DISCIPLINE?
Did the principal engage in administrative BULLYING or RETALIATION?
If not (50% + 1) replace them!
Ed Lindsey and crew could indeed “tie the school systems’ hands” with this bill in such a way that systems would have no choice BUT to address teaching and learning conditions.
Checks and balances would FINALLY be restored so that the teacher is EMPOWERED.
Have Ed Lindsey and crew come even REMOTELY close to doing this? If not, then they are DELIBERATELY setting schools up to fail, so they can offer a “solution”
Why not “leverage” the schools with legislation to empower classroom teaching and learning conditions AND leverage them with the threat of competition?
At least then you are an advocate for ALL the students, are you not?
Beverly Fraud
August 17th, 2012
11:27 am
How much quicker would the academic genocide of Beverly Hall’s regime been put to an end if the AJC had reported that half the principals had to be replaced because they lost no confidence votes?
Ed Lindsey and crew-with legislation that could have mandated this- could have prevented the conditions that were RIPE for cheating. Ed Lindsey and crew chose NOT to.
And now we are supposed to blindly trust his integrity?
LD
August 17th, 2012
11:30 am
To those who keep asking “Why can’t traditional schools have the same freedoms that start-up charters have?” The answer is ‘They can.” Your traditional school can convert to a charter school or your entire system can choose to be a “charter system” (btw- all school systems need to choose to enter into a “Investing in Educational Excellence” contract with the DoE, become a charter system, or stay status quo by 2015).
I find it interesting that in all the discussion about charter schools, the proponents almost never mention or encourage people to look into these two options for their local schools. Also, I think it would be interesting for the DoE to actually compile from which portions of Title XX (Georgia Education law) all charter schools & systems have requested waivers. When touring the start-up charter in my area, I asked the principal which waivers they had needed for their classrooms. The answer, “None. It is all on the administrative side.” If we want our traditional schools to be able to more easily implement innovations, we need to get the legislature to stop putting so many restrictions on traditional schools! Don’t fault the schools for not “working outside the box” when by your own laws, you’ve locked the schools into those boxes!
Ron F.
August 17th, 2012
11:31 am
“The reason we need a constitutional amendment is because the Georgia Supreme Court essentially rewrote the Constitution last May and left the state out of ANY role in setting policy or accountability for public schools”
Huh?? Not to nitpick, but have you been in school building lately? The state wrote the curriculum, they are in the midst of rolling out a new teacher evaluation system, they grade schools, etc. All that while only paying 38% of the bill. I wish I had that kind of control for that little money. They are the legislature- they have policy control via legislation. This amendment is hardly their recovery of due control.
Also, the court cannot rewrite the constitution, essentially or actually. Their job is to interpret it and determine its legality. Since the portions of the constitution relating to education were ratified, the state has had its authority over education. That isn’t what this is about, and many realize that. There’s too much rancor, too much partisan politics, and too many egos involved at the state level for me to accept that there’s any nobility in their push for this amendment. The court took the narrow view current politics dictates. If anything, that was the conservative viewpoint at its finest.
CharterStarter, Too
August 17th, 2012
11:32 am
I’m copying and pasting my comment from another thread on this same topic… Click not the link Barge provides and read his WHOLE survey. During his campaign, Barge supported not only the Commission (i.e., the state as an authorizer), but ALSO reducing district funding so that the money could follow the child (no concerns about the economy then….and we were definitely in a crunch at the time.) NOW, he doesn’t even support a Commission that takes NO funds from districts. What gives?
CharterStarter, Too
August 16th, 2012
2:27 pm
I just saw an “update” to Dr. Barge’s statement on the DOE website where he says he has been consistent throughout and provides proof based on his comments to question #4. Does anyone find it disingenuous that he fails to address the next question where he rates this belief as STRONGLY supporting the Charter Schools Commission AND its prior funding mechanism (that reduced district funding) with the reason being, “This is simple. The money follows the student.”
I believe the man has contradicted himself, and based on what he is clarifying as his “intent” for the multiple authorizer approach, is even contradictory within the survey. If you disagree, please help me to understand how.
Ron F.
August 17th, 2012
11:32 am
” the union strategy of fielding phony “Republicans””
That’s like stealing candy from a baby since they’re mostly phony anyway regardless of party. We get them cheap too, btw by pretending to be a conservative charter management company. Works like a charm!
Maureen Downey
August 17th, 2012
11:37 am
@Ron F.
Re: “The reason we need a constitutional amendment is because the Georgia Supreme Court essentially rewrote the Constitution last May and left the state out of ANY role in setting policy or accountability for public schools”
I don’t think anybody exposed that charade better than my AJC colleague Jay Bookman who wrote:
Ron F.
August 17th, 2012
11:42 am
Maureen: I like Jay’s p.o.v. sometimes!
What’s unfortunate is that the really passionate and caring about school reform and those who truly believe in charter schools are being used as patsies by the legislature. I wonder how long it will take before the legislature turns on them too as they work towards privatization of education. I hate to see how some very devoted folks are being used.
Charled Douglas Edwards
August 17th, 2012
11:45 am
According to Mr. John Barge/Georgia Department of Education there are 1,600,000 students in 23,000 public schools in the great State of Georgia.
Charter schools siphon of resources that are desperately needed by public schools.
Pubic schools must always be the #1 focus of the Ga Dept of Education.
Maureen Downey
August 17th, 2012
11:48 am
@To all, Let’s deal with the facts here. Thomas Cox is one of the state’s top attorneys on education issues and represented the winning side on the charter school battle. He made the point very clearly after the Supreme Court ruling that Georgia could continue to have charter schools. (By the way, after I ran this, one of the attorneys for the losing side told me that Cox was accurate in his assessment that we would continue to see charters approved and opened in Georgia.)
http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2011/07/25/state-supreme-court-decision-was-not-fatal-to-charter-schools/
Another Math Teacher
August 17th, 2012
11:49 am
Keep in mind, no matter which side of the debate you are on, Chunter is a troll.
Holly Jones
August 17th, 2012
11:54 am
This is driving me crazy. NO ONE is arguing against choice!!!!! What we are saying, and some folks are simply refusing to hear- is that this amendment is unnecessary. There is already an appeals process for denied charters. It is just that simple. There is NO NEED to duplicate what the State BOE already does. That’s it. No one is saying “Shut all charters down!” We are saying, “Let MORE of us be released from the red tape!” But, again,there are those who refuse to hear that message and harp on “choice.”
jd
August 17th, 2012
11:59 am
It’s amazing — current law says the local board is in charge of licensing charter schools. If you don’t like your local board decisions, vote new folks in. That is what our founding fathers designed for us!
The amendment would allow a group of folks who are not elected by anyone to charter a school in a local district, removing all local oversight and control. And, the new law allows the state to de-fund 2.5 k12 students to pay for 1 charter student in a state chartered school. So, we will take taxes from south georgia parents to pay for Atl Suburb charters.
any questions?
Maureen Downey
August 17th, 2012
12:01 pm
@Holly, I understand the strategy here is to cast the amendment vote as a for or against charter schools, as that is likely to win more “yes” votes.
But that is not the choice here, as you point out. The choice is who controls the approval and funding of charter schools.
Anyone who has seen the Legislature in action ought to be concerned about vesting more power and control in it. I also realize that the natural rebuttal to that statement is that anyone who has seen some school boards in action ought to be concerned about the same thing with them.
But after covering governments in three states, voters have far more access to school board members than to their legislators, for whom voters are an abstract and lobbyists are a reality. My former AJC colleague Jim Wooten and I were apart on many issues regarding schools, but we were both in agreement that lobbyists hold too much sway with the General Assembly.
This amendment is backed by the growing for-profit segment of charter schools, and I have no doubt that it is their self-interest spurring that support.
Maureen
Beverly Fraud
August 17th, 2012
12:03 pm
“I don’t think anybody exposed that charade better than my AJC colleague Jay Bookman who wrote:”
Well see, that’s the thing isn’t it? If Bookman had been as proactive at exposing the APS charade as he is this one, it might give him a little more credibility when it comes to this particular “charade”
But when you pick and choose which charade to expose, and which charade to be SILENT on, depending upon your political agenda, you end up looking not unlike The Boy Who Cried Wolf do you not?
CTR
August 17th, 2012
12:11 pm
@Holly and Maureen.
Choice is exactly what you argue against. My son goes to one of the charters approved by the commission and rejected by the local board, and in fact sued by the local board. And if this amendment does not pass, his school will close, even if granted Special School Status by the DOE. This is because their funding would decrease by 50%. So it’s not a duplication of powers. Under the new amendment, the state money can follow the child, NOT local money, thereby allowing them to continue to operate. Where’s the duplication of power? Where is the choice when my son’s school closes? Yes, you do indeed argue against choice. Let me take 50% of your income away and see if you can operate.
Beverly Fraud
August 17th, 2012
12:12 pm
“This amendment is backed by the growing for-profit segment of charter schools, and I have no doubt that it is their self-interest spurring that support.!
Yes and this amendment is opposed by people so self defensive of the status quo that they named Beverly Hall their Superintendent of the Year and REFUSE to rescind the reward!
So on the one hand you gave people who want to make a profit for providing an educational alternative for a status quo that REWARDS cheating!
Kind of makes it hard to call the supporters of this amendment “the bad guys” doesn’t it?
Holly Jones
August 17th, 2012
12:18 pm
@Maureen I’ve believed all along that the lining of legislators’ pockets was the driving force all these “choice” advocates. Otherwise, they’d be calling for an end to the mandates for all schools, for more conversion charter schools and districts. Yet, all I hear on those topics is the chirping of crickets. So, a poorly worded amendment and throwing chum in water (in the guise of “You are against choice if you are against the amendment!”) are the strategies. Politics at its best.
living in an outdated ed system
August 17th, 2012
12:20 pm
@Maureen, you are distorting the facts and show a lack of understanding with how monopolies stifle innovation. Please look at the data the right way, where you show charter school performance in states with multiple authorizers versus states with a sole authorizer, LIKE ATLANTA.
I assure you that the results will refute how you’ve framed the comparison for your readers. Certainly, some of the posters on here have demonstrated an aptitude for research methodology, no?
Beverly Fraud
August 17th, 2012
12:26 pm
@Holly Jones it does look like the legislators pushing this have a vested interest is seeing the traditional public schools fail, so they can promote choice.
But look at the LACK of integrity by which the traditional public school have operated. Look at organizations like the Georgia School Board Association. Have they EVER pushed for meaningful change that would empower teachers in this state to hold students accountable for academics and behavior?
Have you seen ANY local school board that has addressed this?
If not, how can you cal them “the good guys” in this?
Holly Jones
August 17th, 2012
12:27 pm
@CTR- then your son’s school should appeal to the State BOE, which is the current process. If they don’t approve it, then there is something wrong with the application. And I don’t understand how their funding is being affected. My understanding is that the funding mechanism remains the same.
The only reason the charter in Cherokee was denied was because the financials were sketchy. As it was presented, if CSUSA pulled the plug on the school, we taxpayers would have been on the hook for the mortgage on the school building. (We’re already paying off the same deal that our Commissioners made with a recycling company). Our BOE was not and is not anti-charter, they were doing their job. Another charter is getting ready to submit an application, so obviously they are not afraid of the BOE and being rejected. And if they are, they can appeal to the state. And this is without the amendment. So tell me why the amendment is necessary??
Holly Jones
August 17th, 2012
12:34 pm
@Beverly, I’m not calling anyone “good” or “bad” (well, there are a few individuals who qualify for the latter IMHO). Has APS failed children. Absolutely. Dekalb? Yep, from where I sit, which is not in Dekalb, but I pay attention. I would love to see the issue of discipline and parental involvement brought to the forefront of these discussions. I believe, as I think you do, that without these, any other “reform” will fail. Until administrators and BOEs grow a backbone and stand up to parents who argue that little Johnny’s suspension is unfair and threaten legal action, I don’t know what to do. The Legislature isn’t going to jump into this- they’re too busy dismantling the system anyway.
I don’t think most of the “fixes” needed for schools require a ton of money. They DO require people to take responsibility for their actions and each their kids to do the same. I wish we could legislate that.
Beverly Fraud
August 17th, 2012
12:34 pm
Notice than none of the people who are against this amendment will address the LACK of integrity and the LACK of trust in the status quo that has brought us to this point?
If public schools were working effectively and not bastions of dysfunction, do you think this amendment would even see the light of day?
Why can’t those who oppose this amendment address THAT?
Maureen Downey
August 17th, 2012
12:35 pm
@living,
Have you read the 2009 Stanford study, considered the best in the country thus far on charter school performance? It was not done by a ideological group with a stake in the findings, as the ones that you often cite.
Stanford’s Center for Research on Education Outcomes compared charter schools nationwide to regular public schools serving the same populations and found:
–17 percent of charter schools out-performed the regular public schools
–37 percent performed worse than the public schools
–46 percent showed no difference in student performance from the public schools
Beverly Fraud
August 17th, 2012
12:38 pm
The Legislature isn’t going to jump into this- they’re too busy dismantling the system anyway.
@Holly that’s my major problem with Lindsey and crew. They COULD make things better, but they CHOOSE not to.
But given the performance of the status quo, I’m not sure even inviting SATAN HIMSELF into the process could make it any worse.
Beverly Fraud
August 17th, 2012
12:43 pm
@Maureen, by your own stats, one has a 63% better chance at doing as well or better in a charter school than at a traditional school.
But if the charter school fails, parents have an EXPONENTIALLY better chance at banding together and making change at that one school.
That sounds more like a reason TO support this amendment, even if you can’t trust Ed Lindsey intentions for students any farther than you can throw him.
CTR
August 17th, 2012
12:52 pm
@Holly… Let me bring some things to light so that you may understand the differences between what the State BOE offers currently and what would change under the amendment.
Under the charters granted by the commission, funding was split between the state and local dollars. However since the commission was struck down the local funding went away. Schools were told to apply for State Chartered Special School status through the BOE which resulted in a loss of approx $4000 per student. Gov Deal made up the difference. However should the amendment fail this money will end and 8 schools will likely close. (www.senate.ga.gov/sro/Documents/AtIssue/atissue_nov11.pdf) This document explains in full.
However, under the amendment, the money can follow the child to the tune of $6400, which is enough to operate the charters. This includes NO local funding. So how can you say the the BOE is just fine, when my local board denied the charter, then sued them? And they are a great school. Last year they met AYP, AND had a Meets and EXCEEDS of 70% in math and 90% in Language Arts.
NOW DO YOU SEE WHY IT’S NECESSARY? The status quo is failing because there are many local boards that are hostile to great charters. Listen, it’s no silver bullet, I acknowledge that, it’s just an option. I know the BOE is not anit-charter, but some locals are, and this amendment can over come that, but what we have now does not.
living in an outdated ed system
August 17th, 2012
12:58 pm
Here you go…people. More research that you will undoubtedly find fault with.
http://georgiapolicy.org/charter-school-successes-well-documented/
LoganvilleGuy
August 17th, 2012
1:05 pm
@Beverly,
Using Maureen’s own numbers…
When a group of 100 students enters a charter school, 33 of them are going to see declines in their educational attainment. 46 of them are going to see no difference. 17 will see improvement.
So we’re going to sacrifice the education of 33 students so that 17 can improve?
I say put those 17 in private school and leave the rest where they are at.
LoganvilleGuy
August 17th, 2012
1:06 pm
correction:
The number that regress is actually 37 students. So… we’re going to sacrifice 37 students so that 17 can see improvement.
mountain man
August 17th, 2012
1:08 pm
“Mr. Lindsey comments the graduation rate is only 60 percent, truth is that is at age 18. Take that to age 24 and the graduation rate is 90 percent and has been there for many years.”
bs ALERT ! BS Alert!
I cannot believe that statistic at all! There are more than 10% that get GED’s every year. Plus the out-and-out dropouts. Someone better look at their numbers again.
(BTW, getting a GED is NOT “graduating”!)
Ron F.
August 17th, 2012
1:15 pm
outdated: yep, we will find fault. I congratulate those schools, but what does that have to do with anything in this debate? This isn’t about the performance of those schools, this is about the need for a commission to do what we already can do without spending any more money. I applaud those schools, but their performance isn’t germane in this debate.
Also, I think the monopoly argument has been worn….slap….out. Intelligent minds know better, and the rest seem to have gone elsewhere. Please let’s move on from that.
Beverly Fraud
August 17th, 2012
1:31 pm
So we’re going to sacrifice the education of 33 students so that 17 can improve?
On the other hand Loganville if those 33 students start to decline, the parents have a CHOICE. Go back to the regular school in their zone.
Should we be sacrificing 17% so that the status remains unchallenged?
Just another teacher
August 17th, 2012
1:50 pm
Just to set the record straight, there are no teacher unions in the state of Georgia. There are two professional organizations (PAGE & GAE), but no union(s). Just thought I’d mention this since several posts have inferred “union coercion” regarding the acts of certain politicians.
living in an outdated ed system
August 17th, 2012
1:52 pm
@Ron F – just say you don’t support the amendment and you can’t be convinced otherwise. No need to beat around the bush here!
LD
August 17th, 2012
1:59 pm
@living Nobody has said that there aren’t good charter schools. Just as with any other model (traditional, private, virtual, and homeschool) you have those that perform well, those that perform on average and those that perform poorly.
And, while I do not question the results of the studies, I do question Mr. Greene’s implication that students were randomly placed in either a charter or traditional school In all the studies, students still applied to the charters, they were not randomly placed. From the link to the Chicago study, “Students who apply to attend charter schools are a selfselected group, and simply comparing them with all other students in local public schools is likely to be misleading.” For a true measure of how any individual charter school is performing, one would need to do a “double blind” study of the students – a complete random draw of students eligible to attend the charter versus their counter parts in the rest of the system. However, this removes the entire “choice” aspect of charter schools. If a charter school were just “another school in the system,” would the parents be as happy? After all, we are psychologically wired to be happier with something we can “choose,” regardless if it is indeed “better.”
Can charter schools have great gains in achievement? Definitely. Can traditional schools? Definitely! My local elementary school saw double digit gains on the ITBS in one year because of a new program implemented by the administration, support by the faculty, and embraced by the parents. Their 5th grade writing test scores in the exceeds category went up by over 25%. And this is a Title I school with almost 40% ELLs. Great things can happen in any educational community when all the stakeholders are motivated, engaged, and on the same path. And just as in private schools, imo, that is the great advantage of charter schools. They start with a motivated and engaged community. It is a shame that across the country so many do not seem to hold onto that momentum.
Beverly Fraud
August 17th, 2012
2:04 pm
What proponents of this amendment can’t say: (politically speaking)
Yes ideally local control is good. But the locals are WILLFULLY IGNORANT and DISENGAGED. They are watching AMERICAN IDOL.
Worse, the status quo SUPPORTS local school boards that act in unethical ways. (How else to explain how a school board that for years turned a blind eye to cheating was “award winning”?)
So we need options, even if it’s SATAN HIMSELF providing them.
Proponents can’t say it, but that doesn’t make it any less truthful.
Seriously, seriously ? ?
August 17th, 2012
2:06 pm
Competition? No, state charters are not competition. That’s like saying the Georgia State Panthers are competition against the New England Patriots. Charters receive DOUBLE the tax dollars and barely 1/2 the students per teacher. I’ve heard it said that “the money still follows the students”. That is a bold faced lie. Tell me how that is competition. This is the GOP trying to keep the upper middle class lazy and/or greedy and/or racists happy so they will keep supporting the GOP so they get to keep the jobs they don’t do. The high income supporters don’t want their kids going to school with packed classrooms that may contain low income student families and/or minorities. That’s what this amendment push is really about. They want to create these charters so they can sneak around and have a charter “lottery” that only they and their close friends know about. They don’t put the effort in to offer this “choice” to everyone in the community. Even if they did, I’m sure their deceipt would know no bounds during the “lottery” student selection process. I dare Rep. Lyndsey to go out to a low income housing community full of minorities and insist on helping these families put their kids in these charters. It will NEVER happen. (Unless of course he reads this and makes one 10 minute production on video just to try to prove me wrong.) It’s all about perception people. The GOP leaders are tall, handsome, smooth talkers who are great at picking your pocket because you are captivated by their smiles and the (R) beside their name. Wake up a smell the BS!
CharterStarter, Too
August 17th, 2012
2:19 pm
@ LD – The state will not be “controlling” the schools. They are not even authorized to start them … The Amendment is clear that local communities have to start the schools. The Commission will:
1. Approve quality schools to open
2. Monitor performance
The management and decision-making stays AT the school level. Parents choose (or not) if the schools meets their child’s needs. That is the ULTIMATE control.
living in an outdated ed system
August 17th, 2012
2:38 pm
@Seriously – when you say something intelligent and logical, maybe we can respond with an intelligent rebuttal.
Jerry Eads
August 17th, 2012
2:56 pm
This looks pretty simple. On the one side we have someone who really looks like he cares about kids and wants to make all schools – including charters (which the research clearly finds no better than and usually worse than “regular” publics) better. The rest of what I was hoping to say I can’t figure out how to make civil, but the “other side” seems to believe P.T. Barnum was right. We’ll find out in November whether they’re right.
LD
August 17th, 2012
3:06 pm
@Charter Starter – Please tell me what lines in the amendment state that the charter schools have to start at the local school board: here is what I found:
41 Special schools may include
42 state charter schools; provided, however, that special schools shall only be public schools.
43 A state charter school under this section shall mean a public school that operates under the
44 terms of a charter between the State Board of Education and a charter petitioner; provided,
45 however, that such state charter schools shall not include private, sectarian, religious, or
46 for profit schools or private educational institutions;
Looks to me as if the amendment only spells out the charters between the State and petitioner.
Richard Woods
August 17th, 2012
3:07 pm
We continue to fail to address the issues that will actually make a difference in improving education within our state.
bootney farnsworth
August 17th, 2012
3:08 pm
a pox on both sides
Teaching in FL is worse
August 17th, 2012
3:08 pm
So, given the logic of charter schools:
-If I am unhappy with the crime rate, I can get a voucher to buy my own guns and hire my own personal bodyguards?
-If the roads that I use are not up to my standards, I can get a voucher and buy a helicopter?
If we are supposed to be in this together (what we call communites), then why are we creating a separate choice?