The arms race for rankings: Emory says student test data inflated for more than a decade
Update Friday evening: AJC reporter Laura Diamond is working on a story for Sunday on Emory and the rankings misinformation. If you are a parent, student or graduate and would be willing to talk with her, please call her at 404-526-7257 or email her. Thanks.
Emory’s announcement today that employees inflated student data to push the university up in the college rankings will spur a renewed debate on the arms race to dominate the “best” lists.
Emory President Jim Wagner said today that Emory has intentionally misreported data about its students to groups that rank colleges for more than a decade.
Emory is not the first college to acknowledge that student academic profiles were tweaked to enhance standings. The New York Times earlier this year reported several schools had acknowledged gaming the system. Iona College in New York admitted lying about test scores, graduation rates, freshman retention, student-faculty ratio and acceptance rates.
The Times reported that “Baylor University offered financial rewards to admitted students to retake the SAT in hopes of increasing its average score. Admissions directors say that some colleges delay admission of low-scoring students until January, excluding them from averages for the class admitted in September, while other colleges seek more applications to report a lower percentage of students accepted.
In January, Claremont McKenna in California announced that a top admissions officer had resigned after he confessed to inflating the average SAT scores for purposes of rising up the ranks in the revered U.S. News & World Report listing.
According to the AJC:
U.S. News & World Report, Peterson’s and others routinely list Emory as one of the nation’s top colleges. Students and families rely on these rankings when deciding where to apply and enroll. Emory officials said they have no way of knowing if the college was over-ranked.
“As an institution that challenges itself, in the words of our vision statement, to be ‘ethically engaged,’ Emory has not been well served by representatives of the university in this history of misreporting,” Wagner wrote in a letter to the university. “I am deeply disappointed. Indeed, anyone who cares about Emory’s reputation for excellence in all things must regret this news.”
Emory launched an investigation in May after John Latting, the new dean of admissions, discovered data discrepancies. The investigation found that Emory:
- Used admitted students’ SAT/ACT data instead of enrolled students since at least 2000. This overstated Emory’s test scores.
- May have excluded the scores of the bottom 10 percent of students when reporting SAT/ACT scores, GPAs, and other information. This practice was not followed after 2004.
- Overstated class rankings.
Two former admission deans and leadership in the Office of Institutional Research were aware of the misreporting, the investigation found. They no longer work at Emory, officials said. The investigation found nothing to indicate that anyone in the president’s, provost’s or dean’s offices knew data was being misreported or directed or coerced staff to do so.
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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119 comments Add your comment
Solutions
August 17th, 2012
1:06 pm
For a religious school, they certainly lie and cheat a lot! Excellence in all things….right!
mountain man
August 17th, 2012
1:10 pm
So the Atlanta Public Schools are not alone.
Maureen Downey
August 17th, 2012
1:11 pm
@mountain, I thought the same thing — put unrelenting pressure on people to reach certain quotas and they will get there one way or the other.
Maureen
mountain man
August 17th, 2012
1:11 pm
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
mountain man
August 17th, 2012
1:14 pm
You are absolutely correct, Maureen! Why do you think teachers and administrators cheated at APS: because they were forced to with the threat of losing their jobs. Now we find even colleges do these things. And to settle the racists out there: I doubt that you can blame Emory’s issues on a certain race.
Fred ™
August 17th, 2012
1:19 pm
Maureen Downey
August 17th, 2012
1:11 pm
@mountain, I thought the same thing — put unrelenting pressure on people to reach certain quotas and they will get there one way or the other.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
There was no pressure whatsoever Maureen on the two people responsible.
Howard Finkelstein
August 17th, 2012
1:22 pm
LOL…more cheating from the “elite squads”. LMAO!!
Maureen Downey
August 17th, 2012
1:23 pm
@fred, Why did they do it? At some point, they must have decided it would help Emory and their department. Maureen
Beverly Fraud
August 17th, 2012
1:27 pm
So the Atlanta Public Schools are not alone.
What? They couldn’t get Sam Williams to help them “finesse a report past the governor”?
Georgia, The " New Mississippi "
August 17th, 2012
1:27 pm
Georgia Values ——–It seems our state is at the fore front in all things unethical , immoral and corrupt.
Say one thing in public and do something else in private …….until caught.
Hillbilly D
August 17th, 2012
1:28 pm
Why did they do it? At some point, they must have decided it would help Emory and their department.
That’s a valid point but it doesn’t mean they were pressured to do it. Not to speak for Fred but I think that was his point.
To me, it’s symptomatic of a society wide problem, the end justifies the means, get the result however you have to do it, etc. We’ve lost our moral center and sometimes it’s just plain ol’ naked ambition.
PrivilegedFew
August 17th, 2012
1:31 pm
Hahahahahahaha!!! Oh, thank you. I haven’t laughed this much in a long time. Hahahaha!
guy
August 17th, 2012
1:31 pm
can Emory be sued by students or alumni for misrepresenting its prestige level? just wondering if there’s any hope to recover tuition money… thx
Fred ™
August 17th, 2012
1:33 pm
Check your email
Steve
August 17th, 2012
1:35 pm
Was Beverly Hall working there also?
Digger
August 17th, 2012
1:43 pm
Immediately folks start digging for examples to show Emory is not alone. Doesn’t change the fact that so far both APS and Emory have been busted for academic fraud. I’m trying to figure out what it is about Atlanta. Maybe if you put unrelenting pressure on groups that are unable to perform, cheating is what you get. The cat is crawling out of the bag, but everyone is calling it a dog.
AlreadySheared
August 17th, 2012
1:55 pm
Hahaha!! indeed. Parental bank balances, however, are not in question.
Charles Douglas Edwards
August 17th, 2012
1:56 pm
It is very, very sad to hear that Emory University inflated and misreported student data.
Emory President Jim Wagner should work diligently to make sure this never happens again.
We hope and pray that this will not tarnish their image.
Emory University is one of the finest schools in the United States of America !!!
Steve
August 17th, 2012
1:58 pm
Emory University is one of the finest schools in the United States of America !!!
And can provide data to support that claim
Jeff
August 17th, 2012
1:59 pm
So all of the snotty arrogance isn’t quite what it was made out to be?
I’ll remember that next time I see one of their student groups protesting something.
Baron DeKalb
August 17th, 2012
2:00 pm
What is it about Atlanta?, someone asks. Well, another poster mentioned “Cultural reasons,” which I understand as a reference to the attitude among Georgians and Southerners generally that education is only important as a way to improve one’s image and prestige rather than something that has value in itself. Emory’s pretensions to greatness will be hollow as long as the shallow, image-conscious mentality prevails. The University cares about the quality of the educational product it provides only to the extent that it impacts its rankings, image, and marketability. I guess you just can’t turn Coca-Cola into champagne.
dc
August 17th, 2012
2:07 pm
they did it because 1) they benefited from it, and 2) they thought they could get away with it. The same reason almost anyone lies or cheats.
I hope you aren’t actually implying that their cheating was a natural result of the pressure they were under for results, and thus understandable and almost excusable….but sure looks like you are. If that’s the case, a lot of folks from Enron should be let out of jail.
Maureen Downey
August 17th, 2012
2:12 pm
@dc. Don’t think pressure excuses cheating, only helps explain it in some cases.
Maureen
bootney farnsworth
August 17th, 2012
2:14 pm
only a decade?
I’d have thought more. after polictics, the most dishonest profession in America is education.
Ole Guy
August 17th, 2012
2:17 pm
This “startling” revelation comes as no surprise, inasmuch as every conceivable educational yardstick within this state has been over-stated, inflated and brought to the level of the incredulous beyond belief. At just what point are the smart folks at the helms of the joke which passes for education going to realize that…YOU CAN FOOL SOME FOLKS ALL THE TIME; YOU CAN FOOL ALL OF EM’ SOME OF THE TIME, BUT YOU SURE AS HELL WON’T FOOL ALL OF EM’ ALL THE TIME. Whereas people, in past years, flocked to this hick state on roads paved with promises of good schools, etc, etc, yamer yamer, ad nauseum, the unvarnished realities, in recent weeks/months/years, have surfaced.
While many, out there, seem to lambast the Ole Guy’s “pining” for the order and discipline brought about by old school adhearance to the basics, the sad realitiy seems to be one of “pining” for mediocrity; the mediocrity of inflated grades, the mediocrity of allowing/yet begging third rate status in a highly competitive world. I am so glad/thrilled to be a product of the old school, as are those whom I have fostered and mentored throughout the years. When I read some teacher BS about “ya gotta spend a day in my shoes to understand the problems”, I wanna frequin puke. Listen up, people: THE PROBLEMS, BOTH AT THE HS LEVEL AND WITHIN THE HALLOWED HALLS OF HIGHER ACADEME, ARE INTERNALLY-ENGINEERED AND INTERNALLY EXECUTED, IN OTHER WORDS, THEY’RE YOUR OWN GD FAULT. If you educators had any spheroids at all, you would have realized, long long ago, that your (educational) ship was headed straight for the rocks. YOU…out of fear and trepidation…failed to assume control over that which you profess to care about. These problems, even to the “uninitiated” non-teacher community, have been all-too apparent for too many years; you have simply chosen to cower in the imagined safety of anonimity while those “leaders” around you have destroyed the system, of which you pretend to care, simply in the interest of political expediency and self-promotion.
GOOD FREQUIN LUCK…
Digger
August 17th, 2012
2:29 pm
Turn the full microscope on Emory, AJC. Might just open a box as big as Atlanta Public Schools.
I've heard
August 17th, 2012
2:33 pm
I recall hearing that other prestigious schools inflate grades so their grads can get into places like Harvard Law School. So for rankings, I suspect a lot of that goes on among those in the top 100.
You investigative reporters ought to be able to shine the light on other Universities engaged in similar practices.
James
August 17th, 2012
2:37 pm
And the president didn’t know anything about all of this?
Once again, either the head guy had his head buried in the sand, or he knew about it and ignored it. Either way, the president deserves – and should accept- the blame. Sad day for the “Harvard of the South.”
Jane
August 17th, 2012
2:37 pm
I want my tuition back.
mystery poster
August 17th, 2012
2:39 pm
I love the headline that says “Emory Misstated Data to Boost Rankings.”
Misstated, ha ha ha
That makes it sound like they made an accidental little oopsie.
Hmmmmmmm
August 17th, 2012
2:48 pm
@ole guy…
You are wise beyond your years…
I’m not surprised that GT is the only institute of higher learning in Georgia… Thank goodness we have ONE!
Jane
August 17th, 2012
2:53 pm
I call on the entire senior staff from the President on down at Emory to resign. They knew or should have known this was going on over a DECADE! I sure hope my heart surgeon didn’t lie about his SATs or his grades in med school were not inflated.
Steve
August 17th, 2012
2:59 pm
Jane,
Wouldn’t you at least like to know where he finished in his Med Class compared to his peers. The guy that has the lowest passing grade is still called Doctor.
Mr. Holmes
August 17th, 2012
3:00 pm
Speaking from some degree of experience, I’m pretty confident that the only “pressure” the Emory admissions & IRP directors faced is from themselves in wanting to make their shops look as good as possible. The US News ranking system is too complex and relies on far too many factors for leadership to put any kind of “we better rank high or else” ultimatum on a single department head. And Jim Wagner (and Bill Chace before him) definitely knows this.
bootney farnsworth
August 17th, 2012
3:01 pm
@ Hillbilly
here’s how it usually works in higher ed. its much more subtle than primary due to tenure college professors can get.
the dept chair -almost always a political position- gets informed somebody is not “pulling their weight” and the chair needs to take preventative measures. said offending faculty gets pulled into the chairs office and they “discuss” the situtation. in short, why are your students not living up to our pre set expectation.
faculty in question will answer the question as if it was sincere, knowing there is another shoe to fall. usually it deals with students not making the grades. chair will then inform faculty this is a problem which must be fixed. to make a point, the faculty will get a minor punishment, such as a single class at an inconvenient time next term
should this not produce the desired effect, the pressue amps up. denial of preferred class schedules/courses. questions about the lack of published material. questions about the scholarship of materials to be published. exclusion to committees and working groups petty to midlevel harrassment. anyone not yet tenured finds their tenure track is derailing. this is usually enough to force compliance from most faculty. not selling the entire soul, but just a piece of it.
if this fails, the pressure gets jacked up. removal from desired committees. seeing once earned consideration given to policital enemies. the whisper campaign goes into effect-questions on ethics, scholarship, teaching ablity. denial of time off to make professional presentations. suddenly bad reviews. harrassment of friends. being spied on East German style by competing faculty. summons to the dean to discuss your bad attitude results and deteriorating attitude – blatant warnings of dire consequences if not corrected in the following manner.
then, HR gets involved. this is essentially the kiss of death. this will follow a faculty person the rest of their career. and it happens all the time.
while this may seem trivial outside of the profession, it is the most cold blooded kind of assualt in ours
Mr. Holmes
August 17th, 2012
3:06 pm
Bootney: I’m curious where this sinister, dystopian picture of higher ed groupthink formed itself in your head. What you describe bares precious little resemblance to what I see in the two universities where I’ve worked–which also happen to be Georgia’s two highest-ranked schools.
ethos
August 17th, 2012
3:15 pm
Inflating student data is wrong,but so is how the rankings
are generated. A large percentage of how the rankings
are calculated deals with surveys (opinions-academic peer
assessment). How can a survey be an objective measure
for deciding the rank of universities?
How U.S. News Calculates the College Rankings
A number of schools switch ranking categories this year, and for-profits are ranked.
By Robert Morse, Sam Flanigan
September 12, 2011 RSS Feed Print
Terrie Lin reads in the library at New York University.
Terrie Lin reads in the library at New York University.
Undergraduate academic reputation (weighting: 22.5 percent for National Universities and National Liberal Arts Colleges; 25 percent for Regional Universities and Regional Colleges): The U.S. News ranking formula gives significant weight to the opinions of those in a position to judge a school’s undergraduate academic excellence. The academic peer assessment survey allows top academics—presidents, provosts, and deans of admissions—to account for intangibles at peer institutions such as faculty dedication to teaching.
Smoldering Trash Heap
August 17th, 2012
3:16 pm
<————— This is what Emory has always been.
bootney farnsworth
August 17th, 2012
3:27 pm
@ Holmes
I see two possibilites – you refuse to see it, or you are a major particpant.
either way, you are welcome to your opinion/observation.
actually, you remind me of the Tricoli supporters who denied anything was amiss while the humanites division nearly ended up in court. to this day some deny the main person in question did anything wrong
ethos
August 17th, 2012
3:27 pm
It is wrong to inflate student data,but some of the the categories that
are used to rank the universities are not objective. For example, a
significant part of the rankings deals with a peer assessment survey.
How can universities be judged objectively with surveys?
How U.S. News Calculates the College Rankings
A number of schools switch ranking categories this year, and for-profits are ranked.
By Robert Morse, Sam Flanigan
September 12, 2011 RSS Feed Print
Terrie Lin reads in the library at New York University.
Undergraduate academic reputation (weighting: 22.5 percent for National Universities and National Liberal Arts Colleges; 25 percent for Regional Universities and Regional Colleges): The U.S. News ranking formula gives significant weight to the opinions of those in a position to judge a school’s undergraduate academic excellence. The academic peer assessment survey allows top academics—presidents, provosts, and deans of admissions—to account for intangibles at peer institutions such as faculty dedication to teaching.
bootney farnsworth
August 17th, 2012
3:30 pm
@ Holmes
try going on line to the Chronicle and read some of postings following blogs. especially in the two year track section.
bootney farnsworth
August 17th, 2012
3:33 pm
one other thing….
its the people who speak like Holmes speaks which are usually the worst of the bunch.
denying there is any blood on the knife since they just wiped it clean.
be very, very, very wary of the educational professional who says all is well. they are either liars of fools
Fred ™
August 17th, 2012
3:34 pm
Bootney: You can only read The Chronile online if you buy a subscription:
“This content is only for subscribers. You can gain access by purchasing a:
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Subscribe now
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Subscribe now
Learn more”
Mr. Holmes
August 17th, 2012
3:38 pm
Bootney:
1. I “remind you” of something? From what, my questions? Considering I’ve said nothing about myself except that I’ve worked in higher ed, you must be quite perceptive.
2. Where did I say nothing is “wrong” in higher ed? I merely said it’s a bit far-fetched for a tier-one research university president to put a rankings ultimatum on the admissions director. That’s kinda like a head football coach telling his field goal kicker that he gets cut if the team doesn’t make the playoffs.
3. I’m somewhat skeptical that you have firsthand knowledge of the faculty-administrator drama you spin so fantastically. One, you appear to have grammar & spelling issues, so I’m kinda doubting there’s a string of letters after your name. Two, daily life in academia isn’t quite how you say. For example, “exclusion to [sic] committee and working groups” as a punishment for faculty. For faculty, serving on most internal committees constitutes a service obligation–one from which, nine times out of 10, they’d gladly accept the “punishment” of removal.
But please, if your objective here is to paint higher education with an unflattering brush, regardless of that whole truthiness thing, by all means continue.
Pardon My Blog
August 17th, 2012
3:38 pm
That explains how some of the students got into Emory (not to mention that their parents work there). We could not figure it out since they were some of the lower scoring seniors in the class!
Fred ™
August 17th, 2012
3:43 pm
Mr Holmes: While neither defending nor attacking Mr. Farnsworth’s posts, I WOULD however be inclined to think he works in higher ed or at least has a more than passing knowledge of it. How many folks that DON’T have even heard of The Chronicle much less read it?
dawg67
August 17th, 2012
3:44 pm
boot: Is there a reason why, when someone disagrees with you, you insult them personally? Can’t someone just disagree with your opinion without you slandering them? It does not make your arguments ring very true, especially when you compare inner office squabbling with “East German” spies.
Mr. Holmes
August 17th, 2012
3:51 pm
Fred: Yeah, who knows. It’s just the picture he paints of an oppressive administration putting the thumbscrews to non-compliant faculty members is pretty fanciful and even downright humorous, once you’ve hung around tenured faculty for any amount of time.
They like to think they run the university. And when their leadership acts in a way that challenges this belief–much less overtly threatens them to toe the line–they tend to get really loud & annoying. And once this belief, that the department head/school chair/college dean doesn’t buy into the whole faculty governance thing, it’s usually the administrator who’s looking for a job pretty soon.
But again, that’s just in the real world. Not sure how things work at Tea Party U. where ole Bootney teaches.
Glad I can afford to send my daughter to pvt school
August 17th, 2012
3:52 pm
Every afternoon I have a coke with my next door neighbor who was a department head at Emory . When I told him of this he broke into a 30 minute tirade about how stupid & political administrators at Emory were. I can’t quote the language he was using but he says that this conduct is normal at name schools.
Mr. Holmes
August 17th, 2012
3:52 pm
“And once this belief *spreads*…” I meant to say.
Fred ™
August 17th, 2012
3:59 pm
LOL Mr. Holmes, from your posts I KNOW you are a staff member in higher ed, probably fairly high up. Faculty DO present their special set of problems don’t they? I always loved the Indigo Girls description (coincidentally of an Emory professor):
I went to see the doctor of philosophy
With a poster of Rasputin and a beard down to his knee
He never did marry or see a B-grade movie
He graded my performance, he said he could see through me
I spent four years prostrate to the higher mind, got my paper
And I was free.
Gerald
August 17th, 2012
4:09 pm
I did not attend Emory University, but know quite a few people who did, and have been impressed as an employer and acquaintance of their graduates. I do not in any way condone providing false information to enhance “ratings”, and all who did so or condoned those actions should be terminated immediately. However, let’s not get carried away and condemn the University and all associated with it without a lot more facts than we have now. It seems that the President is moving to address the issue as raised by the new Admissions personnel – so giving them a chance to address and correct the issues is in order.
Wooyeah
August 17th, 2012
4:33 pm
Re: “Cheating” with Data/Statistics — This problem is not only in education, but in several areas where cold numbers trump all other factors.
In K-12 education, jobs are on the line, if schools does not meet certain testing standards.
In not-for-profits, programs get cut or lose funding if they fall short of eligible enrollees.
In sales, people lose their livelihood if they do not hit projections.
In the investment community, poor performance means pullout by stakeholders, which can damage an organization’s finances and competitiveness.
We could go on and on with examples of this.
Cheating is absolutely wrong; but so is a culture where the ends have come to be more important than the means.
Bernie
August 17th, 2012
4:34 pm
I do not think this informaton really comes as a surprise to most of us. Especially in light of political and social enviroment that exists here in Georgia and around this Nation presently.
It seems we all have reached a level of tolerable and acceptable BS without really demanding of the true facts. As Mitt says “TRUST ME!”…Ann says, no need to see
our information, Mitt is “GOLDEN”. We say….”OK!”
Ronnie said ” Trust, But Verify! “
what_what
August 17th, 2012
4:37 pm
i encourage anyone interested in emory governance to read the amazing book “Waking Up Blind” by local author Dr Tom Harbin. It will forever change how you view the Emory administration.
BehindEnemyLines
August 17th, 2012
4:39 pm
The fun part is Googling to try to find the former Deans of Admission and figuring out where they are now. Took a little doing (since they appear to be in lower profile positions these days) but it was a mildly entertaining exercise.
Meanwhile, I’ll at least credit Wagner for going public and taking the (well-deserved) beating that will follow.
Tired of Emoriods
August 17th, 2012
4:41 pm
Mr. Holmes: You wrote: “What you describe bares precious little resemblance to what I see in the two universities where I’ve worked–which also happen to be Georgia’s two highest-ranked schools.” It should be “bears,” not “bares.”
what_what
August 17th, 2012
4:41 pm
bootney…..with all due respect you describe situations that occur (possibly) at institutions where the quote “academic politics are so viscous because the stakes are so low” applies. this does include emory of course. at many of the better universities in this country, its how many A pubs, how much service and how much grant money you’re bringing in. not petty politics.
Out by The Pond
August 17th, 2012
4:49 pm
The sad thong os that no matter high up the rankings Emory moved do to it’s false data, Emory is still the best we have to offer in Georgia. Sad. Sad. Sad
Not an alum
August 17th, 2012
4:54 pm
It’s been common knowledge for years that you can get a better education at Tech or even UGA (depending on the discipline). I didn’t go to any of them but if you move in academic circles you know what’s going on. When the colleges started taking the ultra left turn, their credibilty, quality of academics and desirability of graduates decline. Emory took the lead in political correctness years ago with UGA and Tech in tow. Emory hangs their hat on the diversity card which Tech has due to the prestige and demands of the Institute. UGA has sheer numbers and football (a priority in GA) to make it more competitive. If I pad 40K plus to attend that school I’d be standing on the president’s lawn with a pitchfork.
Jake
August 17th, 2012
5:08 pm
“It’s been common knowledge for years that you can get a better education at Tech or even UGA (depending on the discipline).”
Of course. Common knowledge among those who couldn’t get into Emory.
Eddie
August 17th, 2012
5:16 pm
It is sad that the “Liberal Elite” that are always telling us how to live are some of the most unethical and intolerant folks around. However, as an earlier person mentioned Emory’s reputation has been on the decline for a long time. I think everyone pretty much knew that except maybe the parents that laid out big bucks for that “Elite” education.
Prof
August 17th, 2012
5:16 pm
A couple of observations.
I’ve known of academic vendettas with the features that Bootney Farnsworth describes at 3:01 pm, but they’re for much more serious matters than poorly performing students. They usually involve something worthy of grudges, like an attempt to deny tenure or, conversely, to get rid of one’s chair. And they can occur at “the better universities” too.
BF has posted elsewhere about being one of the many faculty and staff recently laid off by Georgia Perimeter, so there probably is accuracy in some of the related details. Of course, that’s not Emory, the subject here.
“Mr.” Holmes must not be a tenured faculty member unless he’s an MFA.
northbeach Scott
August 17th, 2012
5:27 pm
So Maureen, you are suggesting the old Nazi adage that the Emory administrators were just following orders (implied) because they were under pressure? Wow, how did Nuremberg turn out for those scumbags?
I am pretty sure that following orders will get you hanged with the others. What a disgusting failure of leadership at Emory. I am now ashamed of my MBA. I will be happy to join any others in seeking some class-action remedy with Emory for tuition reimbursement for lying.
Saddened Emory Faculty member
August 17th, 2012
5:35 pm
While I am deeply ashamed of Emory’s deliberate distortion of statistics, I admire the administration’s decision to bring Jones Day on board. In his letter to everyone at Emory today, President Jim Wagner wrote: “I assure you that I and my colleagues on the cabinet are doing all that we can to see that nothing like this happens again, and that Emory lives up to its standards of excellence and integrity.” Let’s hope that this is not just administrator-speak, but a true commitment to a more honest future for the institution.
DataA
August 17th, 2012
5:42 pm
Emory—overpriced, overrated. Phony data to justify the obscene tution–a bunch of spin to make excuses. More of the same.
Always Skeptical
August 17th, 2012
5:43 pm
I’m glad that Wagner came clean, but if you believe that only 2 people were involved in this, you’re dreaming. It’s likely that the numbers were cooked after people senior to them provided wither direct or tacit approval that it was ok. Don’t believe for a second that only 2 people were involved.
Reliance upon these rankings by US News to determine anything about a college education is directly related to an American penchant for lazy consumerism. Next, check the law school and the business school numbers to make sure they add up as well. You’ll probably find the same problems I’ll bet that all of the schools on the US News list ranked between 15 and 25 all have some problems with their reported numbers. They’ve all been affected by the worst elements and practices of corporate America coming to roost at our nation’s colleges and universities.
Over the past 10 years there’s been a real culture shift at Emory as it has tried to seemingly “claw” its way to the top in rankings across all divisions. None of it has been for the best.
Solutions
August 17th, 2012
5:58 pm
All the top tier schools are fighting for the same students, those with SAT scores of 1400 and above on Verbal and Math, they represent the top 2% of all high school students each year. There are not enough to go around, so the lesser schools must make do with lower scoring students, but they do not want to admit it. It becomes a negative feedback loop, the lower the average SAT for the school, the fewer high scorers who apply and actually show up for registration. It is not the home environment that is the problem, that is just the excuse for failure. Too many distractions, tv, internet, games, the street. This will cost Emory a lot of high scoring students who would otherwise have applied. Soon we will have dumbed down America to third world status.
yagottabekiddingme
August 17th, 2012
6:17 pm
Emory’s actions are NOT alone; and precisely the reason I steer my students away from any “rankings”. They are completely meaningless in the college search, and lead to unnecessary pressure from parents on college-bound students to put certain schools on their application lists. Hooray for Emory!
Lee
August 17th, 2012
6:19 pm
Rankings, smankings My daughter just bought textbooks for the fall semester. That’s where the real fraud is.
Fred
August 17th, 2012
6:29 pm
@the other Fred, there is pressure and then there is pressure. While there may not have been any overt pressure to misreport those numbers (and I truly don’t think there was), I can assure you the rankings were and are closely followed not just by Emory but by all higher education institutions. The urge to help push your institution up in the rankings is very strong.
@Jane and others, you do realize this was self reported by Emory don’t you? If the desire was to hide this it would have been very easy to do so. Emory chose to report it publicly. If you didn’t read the letter from President Wagner or look at the on line reporting of this on the Emory web site, people lost their jobs over this. I feel pretty sure the University is taking this very, very seriously. They hired and outside law firm to independently investigate when the issues were first made know. To classify this as the same as the APS cheating scandal is patently unfair and incorrect. Systemic cheating vs a few employees in one office in not the same thing. What those Emory employees did was absolutely wrong and they were punished and Emory is standing up to take the consequences of it’s employees actions.
Proud teacher
August 17th, 2012
6:43 pm
Of course they are inflated. Don’t blame the teachers. They are victims of the unrealistic demands of the state and Feds to get the numbers up. Make AYP. Bad things happen if the numbers aren’t right!
Fred
August 17th, 2012
7:04 pm
Dang! I *hate* it when the fingers live a magic life all their own and don’t follow what the mind is thinking! [sigh] Please forgive the typos. I think the thoughts are clear if the typing is not.
Fred ™
August 17th, 2012
7:17 pm
@ Fake Fred: US News and World Report has already stated that they wouldn’t change their rankings based on this.
@Not an Alum (and several others): I can see by your comments that you really have zero knowledge of facts to back up your claims. All you seem to have is a vendetta against Emory. Just be honest and say so.
@what_what: There really aren’t that many Universities in the WORLD much less in the Country better than Emory. Is Emory Harvard? Hell no, but it sure as hell isn’t UGA either, not that UGA is a bad school. Emory does a fine job with grant money.
I wish there were more INFORMED comments here and less rhetoric. A problem was found and immediately dealt with and acknowledged. EMORY found this prolem. No one else did. They didn’t cover it up, they manned and womaned up and used full disclosure.
What else could they have done you silly people? To compare this to the APS cheating scandal is beyond ignorant.
catlady
August 17th, 2012
7:30 pm
So the IR folks did this? On whose direction?
Fred ™
August 17th, 2012
7:40 pm
catlady
August 17th, 2012
7:30 pm
So the IR folks did this? On whose direction?
++++++++++++++++++++++++
It was either George Bush’s or Barack Obama’s fault. It depends whether you are a rabid nutcase Democrat or rabid nutcase Republican as to which one you ultimately blame.
RGB
August 17th, 2012
8:04 pm
I always thought Emory grads were pompous eggheads. Their pomposity is unearned.
Solutions
August 17th, 2012
8:38 pm
RGB – So is the massive debt of the average Emory grad, it will follow them for the rest of their lives. The tuition was supposed to buy access to a school with high SAT scores, but the school lied. Grounds for damages? Maybe, I certainly hope so. I would luv to see the high and mighty pay for their crimes, especially the holier than thou crowd.
catlady
August 17th, 2012
8:38 pm
Fred: IR (Institutional Research) Hard to believe those folks would falsify data.
Byrnon
August 17th, 2012
8:45 pm
I see that lots of people are confusing this with inflated student grades. it was not student grades at Emory that were inflated. The inflation was in reporting that their incoming enrolled freshmen class had higher SAT scores, etc, than they really did. They said their incoming enrolled freshmen had such and such SAT scores, but really they were lower. That’s all.
This was done by TWO former deans of Admissions and ONE person in the office of Institutional Research. Not the whole university. The President found out about it, heads have rolled, it’s been investigated by an outside law firm, the info has been made public.
How can you all say this proves the whole system is broken, because three individuals were jerks?
Fred
August 17th, 2012
10:49 pm
@other Fred, I may be a lot of things but fake I am not. We’ve had this discussion before. I’ve been around on the AJC blogs for about as long as they have existed. Just because I normally am not on the ones you frequent doesn’t make me fake just as your “TM” doesn’t give you sole use of Fred.
Back to the topic at hand, thanks for the info about USN&WR. I had not yet had a chance to see that. It does appear that there are more than a few people that aren’t paying attention to what has been written nor have they bothered to check the available online resources. Sue Emory? Really? It seem that all too often that is the first response for some.
William Casey
August 18th, 2012
12:06 am
I’m with ALWAYS SKEPTICAL: Anyone who seriously uses these (or any other) rankings to choose a school is simply a lazy consumer. Doesn’t excuse dishonesty but confirms one of my Mom’s old maxims: “A fool and his money are soon parted.”
yagottabekiddingme
August 18th, 2012
8:39 am
Read this informative blog about the validity of college rankings by Peter Van Buskirk of “The Admissions Game”:
http://www.theadmissiongame.com/blog/archives/693
Another view
August 18th, 2012
9:04 am
Emory is just one of a few that have been caught. See U of I Champagne Urbana Law School.
catlady
August 18th, 2012
9:41 am
Amen, William Casey!
bu2
August 18th, 2012
11:58 am
Clemson did it as well. When Alabama and Auburn are way ahead in USNWR of everyone in the SEC but UGA, Vandy and UF, I have to wonder about them. But Emory is the highest ranking school I have seen being caught.
There’s no pressure on those people who falsified the data. To say so is just to excuse dishonesty. Noone’s job is on the line. They just lie as a recruiting tool.
Maureen-maybe the problem isn’t athletics as you rail against. Maybe its the flexible morals of the administrators in higher education.
Prof
August 18th, 2012
12:16 pm
Just as a follow-up to bu2’s last sentence here, I’ll make another observation to “Mr. Holmes,” the higher ed administrator who complained about the presumption of tenured faculty yesterday at 3:51 pm, and at 3:06 pm referred to “the two universities where I’ve worked–which also happen to be Georgia’s two highest-ranked schools.”
Those schools are highly ranked because of their faculty, not their administrators.
Mitch
August 18th, 2012
1:29 pm
kCrime follows the money. The money is in education. Most everyone will spit on the sidewalk of no one is looking. It is about character.
Learn to read.
August 18th, 2012
1:30 pm
“But Emory is the highest ranking school I have seen being caught.”
It wasn’t “caught.” Dean Latting, who just arrived at Emory from Johns Hopkins, noticed the discrepancies and self-reported them to the rankings companies. U.S. News has already stated that the revised data wouldn’t have changed Emory’s national ranking.
Fred ™
August 18th, 2012
4:42 pm
Fred
August 17th, 2012
10:49 pm
@other Fred, I may be a lot of things but fake I am not. We’ve had this discussion before. I’ve been around on the AJC blogs for about as long as they have existed.
++++++++++++++++++++++
Yes we HAVE had this conversation beforwe name poser. You have been on for “about’ in YOUR mind as these blogs have existed but not as long as they existed because then you would know when they first started you had to REGISTER and duplicate names weren’t allowed.
You deliberately use “Fred” to pose as me. You have done so for years. Why Maureen allows it I don;t know. You could go as Fred R or Fred B or any other Fred derivative you want but you DON’T because then you can’t fool others into thinking they are me.
We have had this discussion on other blogs not just here on the get schooled one. You are an asshat who deliberately poses as me. You enjoy it. There is no other reason that you do it. You know it’s wrong and false but as long as Maureen and Theresa and allow it, you will do it. Try that crap on Jay’s. He’ll warn you once and ban you. Maureen should do the same. I wouldn’t have to type that extra stuff for the TM except for you. Hell, if you were smart enough to know how to add the trade mark thingie you would because that’s the type of asshat you are.
Fred ™
August 18th, 2012
4:45 pm
catlady
August 17th, 2012
8:38 pm
Fred: IR (Institutional Research) Hard to believe those folks would falsify data.
++++++++++++++++++++
Did they falsify data or were they too lazy to check the data that was given to them. Was it not their job to verify the data?
Free paychecks is the concept right? No work just rubber stamp everything……..
no mas
August 18th, 2012
7:13 pm
My daughter is enjoying the headlines. She was accepted at Emory, but chose to attend a different school, where the classes are small and the professors are eager to mentor students.
She is tired of hearing from her friends who went to Emory that she made a mistake. Schadenfreude is alive in our house…
(BTW, it is one person’s opinion, but a friend of mine whose husband is in his last year of law at Emory told me he regrets not going to Georgia State for law school, since his friends there seem to be getting a better education and excellent access to internships and mentors. I have advised by daughter to give it some thought when she graduates.)
another comment
August 18th, 2012
9:09 pm
My former exectutive assistant and I found out over 10 years ago that the Emory Spine Center was playing with the numbers on their out comes of their Spinal Cases. We were both injured at work at the major federal employer next door. Emory Doctors would treat you for moths do their little experimental IDET’s on you. Give you pain pills. Even fill perscriptions for pain pills for months at a time without the doctor ever seeing you, tell you to just pick up the prescription. Then the sent me to the Surgion that they Consider their “God” of Back Surgery. He determines that I am not a candidated for back surgery at this time. So the original doctor, who did his litttle experimental IDET, and had been giving me pain pills without seing me for over 6 months, suddenly sends workmens comp that his IDET surgery was a success I just wanted to stay home with my children. I don’t think so, I have graduate degrees and loved my job. Another insurance policy sent me for a 2nd opinion to the Thrashers and Falcon’s Spine Doctors, he said” Your back has been F’d up by Emory, you have received bad medical care at Emory they have destroyed your disc. The only solution is to try and remove the disc and fuse your spine. At least 10 other Spine Surgions have agreed with this doctor. Who has made two attempts to try to undo the mess made at Emory. I am now 100% disablled.
Emory Spine group only reports favorable out comes to keep their numbers up. They make up excuses to say it is either in the patients head or the patient did this or that when the outcome isn’t in their favor. They didn’t realize, they gave my administrative assistant and my self basically the same line. I have met many other people over the past few years who have had the same thing happen.
Number fudging is common at Emory
lorenzo
August 19th, 2012
7:09 am
Emory is, at best, the 3rd best college in Georgia.
sloboffthestreet
August 19th, 2012
9:27 am
“They spent more time trying to fix the numbers, than they did trying to fix the problem,” said Cathy Henson, an advocate for education reform and former state Board of Education chair. “My frustration is that if you’re giving people phony data, then they don’t understand the magnitude, the urgency of the problem.”
That’s a quote from today’s article about Georgia public education manipulating high school dropout rates. Crap mo stank you say? Well bartell doo!
Pride and Joy
August 19th, 2012
9:32 am
Proud Teacher tells us not to blame teachers for inflated grades and cites pressure on teachers.
What I don’t understand is why teachers don’t fight the pressure en masse. Teachers often walk out and protest when their salaries are at stake so why not do the same for the pressure to inflate grades?
Where is the concern and indignation when lying about student performance?
Maybe it is because money is all that matters.
Hugo
August 19th, 2012
10:55 am
“…a friend of mine whose husband is in his last year of law at Emory told me he regrets not going to Georgia State for law school, since his friends there seem to be getting a better education and excellent access to internships and mentors.”
We’re talking about Emory College, not Emory Law. The fact is, both Emory’s and Georgia State’s law schools stink, unless you want to become an ambulance chaser. Biglaw does little recruiting at either place. Given the glut of unemployed attorneys these days, anyone enrolled in a law school outside the T-14 (possible the T-5) needs his head examined.
mildred siciliano
August 19th, 2012
1:47 pm
Some one needs to check Emory University hospitals mortality and morbidity rates.D ue to negligence,arrogance on some drs. parts, and out and out mistakes part of which is when the drs perform surgery and won’t admit they really do not know what they are doing. my husband had 3 heart surgeries eah one compounding the problem.We were finally advised by a non surgeon there to take my husband out of Emory to Chicago.We actually had to bring videos back from CHICAGO to teach these arrogant surgeons how to do the procedure correctly This was just one of many horrors my husband and son experienced at the hospital i.e a perforated colon following an unnecessary colonoscopy, a faulty needle stick to draw blood from son by a student EMT who left my son to find a doctor when he realized he had messed up and could not find one on thr ER for 10 minutes at which point my son passed out with blood gushing from his arm. I can not say how many other horror stories I have heard since these incident. Emory can not afford to allow these kinds of statistics to get out to the public.Its undeserved reputation would suffer and all those grants,private donations etc would dry up really fast. i truly worry about the damage they cause every day.Needless to say my family will go anywhere before stepping foot on Emory again
Woody
August 19th, 2012
1:49 pm
U.S. News sure hit upon a winning formula with its ‘top 20′ series of institutional reviews, plus rankings of the also-rans. Now this publication has institutions all over the country biting its nails waiting for the annual ratings to come out. I know Emory, continually 22 or 24 for a long, long, time, struggled, like a skinny 13-year-old, to pull its chin up to the bar to which much stronger institutions effortlessly got themselves. And Emory, a place that has historically struggled with its moral compass (follow its behavior during the desegregation struggle), is not a place where integrity was going to win the tug-of-war event with status. This is all very sad. But as in all life, it is never too late to begin a determined fresh start. It is not what we say, or think, but how we act in the real world that ultimately determines our reputation. I do hope, sincerely, that Emory can find its soul.
Progressive Humanist
August 19th, 2012
2:08 pm
Georgia State law school was recently ranked as the #1 best value in the nation. Its graduates get a quality education, readily find good jobs, and tend to be very successful in practice (a main criteria in the ranking). The school tends to focus more on practical application, as opposed to abstract legal theory like most other schools. And graduates tend to owe less in student loans than those of other schools.
Hugo
August 19th, 2012
3:12 pm
“Georgia State law school was recently ranked as the #1 best value in the nation. Its graduates get a quality education, readily find good jobs, and tend to be very successful in practice (a main criteria in the ranking).”
That’s a BS ranking based partly on the percentage of grads who got ANY KIND of job after graduating. You could probably count the number of Georgia State Law alum at Am Law 100 firms on one hand. Emory does better but is far from well represented.
Amicus
August 19th, 2012
8:08 pm
Emory U–overrated for years—very overpriced. They aren’t any better academically than UGa, but walk around with the arrogance of vanderbilt and duke, even though emory is not in their league.
Say What?
August 19th, 2012
9:04 pm
@ Amicus
Emory: 1270-1460 (revised) SAT range
UGA: 1120-1310 SAT range
Emory: 26% acceptance rate
UGA: 63% acceptance rate
Emory: 75% (revised) in top 10% of high school class
UGA: 47% in top 10% of high school class
Emory: 7:1 student/faculty ratio
UGA: 18:1 student/faculty ration
Emory: $5.4 billion endowment
UGA: $573 million endowment
‘nough said.
Institutional Research
August 19th, 2012
9:17 pm
About two or three years ago at the Association for Institutional Research conference here in Atlanta, someone from Clemson did a whole session on how they skewed their numbers for the sole purpose of scoring higher in the U.S. News and World Report. More and more university presidents are opting out of these rankings as it becomes more clear that you can game the system. Example: Clemson added parking fees, that faculty didn’t pay, as part of their compensation to make it look like their faculty members earned more than they actually did. That’s just a small example.
Fred
August 19th, 2012
9:54 pm
@Fred ™ – Wow, resorting to name calling, huh? That is definitely the mark of a superior intelligence! I do indeed know enough about HTML to know how to make superscript but just have never felt the need to artificially inflate my sense of sell worth. Been on the blogs 4-5 years +/- a little and for sure remember when all of a sudden you showed up with your arrogant attitude. Never really said anything because for the most part, we frequent different blogs and life is way to short to get excited over an anonymous blog. I occasionally drop in and comment on other than my normal ones and you tend to have a conniption fit when I do. I neither know you nor care enough about you to have *any* desire to pose as you. I will not, however, change my identity nor my manner of posting to suit you.
Enough with this! I don’t wish to clutter the blog with back and for bickering.
Tom Ryan
August 19th, 2012
10:20 pm
I no longer pay much attention to the U.S. News and Report college rankings and now I may not pay any attention to them. Of course prestige and reputation are everything to private schools, so they do have a considerable temptation to cheat on self-reported statistics. But that doesn’t excuse their misbehavior. One private university at which I taught for four years, and is ranked in the Top 50 national research universities, inflated its reported test scores. This was confirmed to me by a colleague in my dept. whose wife worked in Admissions. He said “everybody does it”. Everybody? Well, maybe most. When you start teaching at a prestigious university and discover that the students are at a much lower level than you expected, you feel like you have been had. Lying to the FBI gets people in big trouble but lying to U.S. News and World Report just causes some embarrassment, which could only be temporarily. I would like to see some substantial penalties levied against guilty schools.
jlmdra
August 19th, 2012
10:21 pm
Emory Healthcare was listed as a top workplace in Atlanta. It would not surprise me if the information supplied for that survey was also intentionally erroneous. Many people who have worked for Emory Healthcare were baffled by their inclusion.
northbeach Scott
August 20th, 2012
11:01 am
@Progressive Humanist, a good value GSU Law? Interesting thought, Walmart and Family Dollar present “good values,” but no one would mistake them for quality shopping experiences with quality goods like high end stores provide. For top law firms and companies hiring law students, they pay top dollar for top quality lawyers as that is what they are selling their clients.
I do not think I want an “Walmart” lawyer handling my cases.
Westie
August 20th, 2012
3:25 pm
It could be worse for Emory, they could have been an UNC which has been caught running a bogus AA Studies program for their “Student Athletes”.
How about...
August 20th, 2012
5:47 pm
The Sunday AJC article quoted a few people as saying they might donate less or not at all to Emory this year.
For all of you folks, may I suggest you direct your donations to Agnes Scott College -they have great rankings, a diverse student body, dedicated faculty and a whole lot of need!
Been here a long time.....
August 20th, 2012
10:09 pm
It is time Emory has a shake down. The university administration is behind the times and still bogged down in the good old boy days of old. It is time the leadership reflect the university’s diverse population. An insular leadership invites this sort of behavior.
DataK
August 21st, 2012
8:35 am
“Emory officials said those involved in the data deception no longer work at the college.”
If you believe that fantasy, you will believe anything.
Progressive Humanist
August 21st, 2012
9:17 am
northbeach Scott @11:01,
Nice obfuscation, drawing comparisons between variables that are not related and have nothing in common. You must be a hack lawyer working out of an empty strip mall.
GSU was rated a strong value precisely because it offers a quality education at a comparatively low cost, and because its graduates not only find jobs but tend to do very well. So the ratings are based both on the quality (the part you seem to have difficulty understanding) and the end result (job status).
GurulikeDrucker
August 21st, 2012
9:32 am
I have hired and supervised associates and staff from many southeastern schools including GA, GA State, GA Tech, Vandy, and Emory. Without a doubt, my experience with GA Tech graduates has been the best, but without fail Emory students have always been exceptionally bright, eager to learn, and quick to understand complex concepts. The one common theme amongst all of my Emory hires is that they are typically either very sheltered or very young (inexperience in the case of Emory MBA grads). Based on my experience, I can only assume that many of the bitter comments here are from those whoe couldn’t get into Emory or didn’t want to pay the tuition. I also assume these same people aren’t in a position (and never have been in a position) to hire and or judge Emory graduates. (Fair disclosure I am a Vandy grad)
Fallout from Emory scandal: Former deans resign current jobs. Still unclear why this mess happened. | Get Schooled
August 21st, 2012
1:53 pm
[...] the score differential but would bet it was not overly significant. Despite a few comments on an earlier Emory blog entry to the contrary, the private university attracts top students and sends many graduates to med school and law school. [...]
MelDon
August 21st, 2012
3:11 pm
emory grads–overrated and too demanding. It’s better to hire grads from state schools
Mr. Holmes
August 21st, 2012
4:31 pm
If you’re still trolling, “Prof,” I never said administrators are responsible for rankings.
We all know university faculty are the animating force behind carbon-based life. So don’t pout.
jlmdra
August 21st, 2012
11:30 pm
Emory is a vacuum devoid of ethical behavior where the most self-serving individuals rise to the top.
jlmdra
August 22nd, 2012
4:20 pm
Emory Healthcare was listed as a top workplace in Atlanta. It would not surprise me if the information supplied for that survey was also intentionally erroneous. Many people who have worked for Emory Healthcare were baffled by their inclusion.