State cracks down on how many remedial courses college students can take
Interesting AJC Sunday story by AJC higher ed reporter Laura Diamond on the state’s crackdown on remedial classes in its public colleges.
(I can’t link as the story was a subscriber-only. You can read it by logging on to the paper’s iPad app. If you are a subscriber, you can read the article on our e-edition here.)
The story notes that the technical and university systems devote about $55 million of their budgets each year to remedial education. More than 70,000 public college students took remedial classes last year.
Few succeed, according to the story.
About 1 in 4 students who take a remedial class earn a four-year degree within six years. The rate drops to 15 percent for the under-prepared students who need remediation in reading, writing and math.
Diamond reports that 29 percent of the students requiring remediation are under the age of 21; 26 percent are age 36 or older.
Here is an excerpt of her Sunday piece:
“The numbers are dismal, no matter how you look at it, ” said Joe Dan Banker, executive director of academic affairs for the technical system. “The goal is to get to the point where we don’t have as many people needing this help. The problem we have at this moment is just how many students need it.”
Students need remedial classes when the lessons they learned to earn a high school diploma don’t match the skills they need to succeed in college. Some never grasped basic material in high school. Others need a refresher because they’ve been out of school for years.
Remedial courses lengthen the time students spend in school, because they must pass them before they can take college-level classes that count toward a degree. Students must pay for remedial classes, so it drives up their college costs.
The university system’s new rules give students two tries to pass English and reading and three tries at math before they must sit out for a year. Previously, they had up to four tries for English and five for math and had to sit out for up to three years.
Thousands are expected to be affected by the new rules. For example, if students test into all three areas of remedial education — English, math and reading — they are barred from attending college. Had this policy been in effect last year, 2,577 freshmen would have been denied.
“This is an honest policy for students, ” said Lynne Weisenbach, a vice chancellor for the system. “Not admitting those individuals who we know from data have a very low chance of graduation reflects a commitment to honestly advising, serving and preparing students.”
These new attempts by colleges address only one part of the remedial conundrum. Another key element requires public schools to graduate students better-prepared for college.
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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123 comments Add your comment
bootney farnsworth
August 8th, 2012
10:27 am
@ Jessica
you’re correct, but it isn’t gonna happen.
and even if it did, the current crop (in my math, the last four and the next six generations) of students are already screwed. we gotta deal with them either in the classroom or in the social system. I prefer the classroom
bootney farnsworth
August 8th, 2012
10:29 am
something you guys gotta understand is in the business of higher education, the least important aspect of it is actually educating students
Claudia Stucke
August 8th, 2012
10:31 am
I agree that we are sending students off to college unprepared. When I taught eleventh-grade English, I saw students who read at an elementary-school level go off to college. I wondered how they were accepted in the first place, but that’s another story.
We know this already. But an important question in the “one student in four” statistic is whether or not students earn four-year degrees at colleges other than the ones where they took remedial classes. Several college professors have told me that there that limitations in the reporting and record-keeping systems make it difficult, if not impossible, to track students who transfer to other colleges; so those who may appear to be drop-outs actually do go on to finish their degrees elsewhere.
While this complication does not dismiss the problem of secondary preparation, it does affect our perception of the issue and should be addressed.
Hillbilly D
August 8th, 2012
10:32 am
Bootney @ 10:29
Actually, I do understand that. I’ve been saying for years that colleges and universities are businesses and the point is to keep the money rolling in. Take a look around North Georgia, where in a depressed economy, virtually the only building going on is at the colleges. They’re putting up new buildings like there’s no tomorrow.
That needs to change but I doubt that it will.
Mountain Man
August 8th, 2012
10:36 am
“But, we cannot blame the high schools for what they are turning out. The “product” merely reflects the lack of financial input from the state, the regs the USDOE puts in place, and the student’s own “relaxed” attitude toward education.”
We might not be able to blame the high schools for what the students LEARN, but we CAN blame them for giving high school diplomas to those who have not mastered the basics. The GHSGT test should be a minimum requirement for a diploma. Correct me if I am wrong, but I understand you can get a waiver from your school if you try to pass the GHSGT several times and continue to fail. These waivers result in people walking around with high school diplomas that are just so much waste paper.
The other side of the coin is this: a high school diploma does NOT mean COLLEGE-READY, nor should it. It should just indicate mastery of the basics, not higher level to enter college. But colleges do not HAVE to include remediation – that could be done at a different school. Or remediation could be limited to one class only, if you fail that, you are out of college. You should not be able to take a remediation course three or four times – if you can’t pass it the first time, you probably don’t belong in college.
Mountain Man
August 8th, 2012
10:37 am
“They’re putting up new buildings like there’s no tomorrow.”
And charging ever higher tuition and “fees” to students to pay for it.
Mountain Man
August 8th, 2012
10:38 am
What ever happened to a minimum SAT score to get accepted to a college?
Mary Elizabeth
August 8th, 2012
10:41 am
“If a kid is behind in 2nd or 3rd grade, odds are they’re never going to catch back up.”
—————————————————————————–
This is not correct. Some students simply need more time in which to absorb the content and curriculum skills, although you are correct that more individualized instructional emphasis should occur in pre k through 3rd grade to help minimize the problem of varied instructional levels in all grade levels.
Realistically, teachers cannot keep a 12 year old, about ready to shave, in 3rd grade, for years.
Please study the link, which I provided at 9:53 am, on Mastery Learning. Students’ continuous progress within a curriculum continuum, at a RATE commensurate with each student’s ability to master concepts in that sequential continuum, is essential to “catch him/her up” – but over time.
Good ole Boys at the Gold Dome
August 8th, 2012
10:41 am
@bootney——–Comment at 10:18. This has to be the first comment that hits the nail on the head about our college system in Georgia.Good comment and it should be sent to the Board of Regents since the majority are politicans and not educators.
bu2
August 8th, 2012
10:43 am
Politicians and colleges need to quit insisting on taking everyone. Students should possess a certain level of competence to get into our 4 year colleges. Any remedial classes should only be at 2 year schools or technical schools. That would be a much more efficient use of our resources.
Mountain Man
August 8th, 2012
10:45 am
“they should not be graduating without knowing the difference between “there, their and they’re” ”
There are a lot of people on the blogs I follow that fall into that category. Or the other one I love – “your” and “you’re”.
Claudia Stucke
August 8th, 2012
10:46 am
@bootney 10:27
I think we all prefer the classroom to the “social system.” Students come to us unprepared, and they leave us unprepared. Colleges look to the high schools,high schools look to the middle schools, middle schools to the elementary schools, and elementary schools to the parents. Meantime, we’re all looking for the silver bullet.
Call me old-fashioned, but if you look at the bottom level of Bloom’s Taxonomy, you see a basic foundation of knowledge, which translates into memorization of multiplication tables, phonics, etc. These are not meant to be learned for a test and forgotten; but we seem to have fallen into that pattern. Higher-order thinking skills and abstract ideas are essential in a person’s education; but a student can’t solve a complex equation without those multiplication tables he or she should have learned in elementary school. I know that this basic information is being taught, but it isn’t being retained. Have students become accustomed to “brain-dumping” for a test and moving on, thinking that they won’t need skills or information obtained in the early years of school?
Claudia Stucke
August 8th, 2012
10:46 am
@bootney 10:27
I think we all prefer the classroom to the “social system.” Students come to us unprepared, and they leave us unprepared. Colleges look to the high schools,high schools look to the middle schools, middle schools to the elementary schools, and elementary schools to the parents. Meantime, we’re all looking for the silver bullet.
Call me old-fashioned, but if you look at the bottom level of Bloom’s Taxonomy, you see a basic foundation of knowledge, which translates into memorization of multiplication tables, phonics, etc. These are not meant to be learned for a test and forgotten; but we seem to have fallen into that pattern. Higher-order thinking skills and abstract ideas are essential in a person’s education; but a student can’t solve a complex equation without those multiplication tables he or she should have learned in elementary school. I know that this basic information is being taught, but it isn’t being retained. Have students become accustomed to “brain-dumping” for a test and moving on, thinking that they won’t need skills or information obtained in the early years of school?
Mountain Man
August 8th, 2012
10:46 am
“Realistically, teachers cannot keep a 12 year old, about ready to shave, in 3rd grade, for years.”
Social promotion.
Mountain Man
August 8th, 2012
10:50 am
“Meantime, we’re all looking for the silver bullet.”
We KNOW the silver bullet – the problem is that it is too difficult and angers too many parents.
Silver bullet:
Mandate attendance
Control discipline
No social promotion
Let those who fail fail.
“you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t teach a kid who doesn’t want to learn”
You will NEVER achieve a 100% graduation rate – unless you just hand them a diploma with no requirements attached.
Hillbilly D
August 8th, 2012
10:50 am
There are a lot of people on the blogs I follow that fall into that category. Or the other one I love – “your” and “you’re”.
Some folks don’t know the difference but some folks are like me, my brain moves a lot faster than I write, type or talk. So it’s not unusual for me to make a mistake like that, leave out a word here and there, etc.
Somebody once told me that’s a sign of high intelligence, so that’s what I’m going with.
Mary Elizabeth
August 8th, 2012
10:58 am
mountain man, 10:46 am
Not “social promotion,” but “continuous progress” for mastery. There is a difference, instructionally, in those two phrases that you are, evidently, not willing to see.
To be better informed, please read the link that I posted at 9:53 am on Mastery Learning.
Another Math Teacher
August 8th, 2012
11:02 am
Reality_Check : “As a retired technical college instructor, it always burned me up that we would accept these illiterate students just to keep the numbers up. If you can’t do reading, writing, or math, you should still be in high school, not college. I think high schools should be responsible for having the students college-ready.”
As a high school instructor, it always burned me up that we would accept these illiterate students just to keep the numbers up. If you can’t do reading, writing, or math, you should still be in middle school, not high school. I think middle schools should be responsible for having the students high school-ready.
Your turn middle school teachers.
Beverly Fraud
August 8th, 2012
11:03 am
Realistically, teachers cannot keep a 12 year old, about ready to shave, in 3rd grade, for years.
No Mary Elizabeth, but they could keep an 8 year old in third grade for another year, when he is actually only ONE year behind; instead of waiting to do remediation in high school, when he is YEARS behind.
The other thing they could do is offer swift, sure, compelling and most of all CONSISTENT consequences for those who those who CHOOSE to not follow the school rules.
Or we can just wait for the employer, landlord, or most sad of all a JUDGE to offer those consequences, when they will be FAR more damaging than they would have been in 3rd grade.
Class of '98
August 8th, 2012
11:10 am
Can I PLEASE find a job in which all I have to do is copy and paste someone else’s column?!? Do they actually pay you?
David Granger
August 8th, 2012
11:10 am
If a student needs remediation in reading, writing, and math…they probably shouldn’t be in college to begin with. The biggest drawback our educational system has…compared to other educational systems around the world…is that we don’t haven benchmark tests along to way that students have to pass in order to move on to the next educational level. What tests we do have we make ridiculously easy…and when students don’t even pass those, we promote them anyway.
Old timer
August 8th, 2012
11:11 am
I have two children….one needed remedial help in reading….the other math. Both had taken AP classes in their area of strength. Both graduated in five years,both maintained their HOPE scholarship. Since college both have earned master’s degrees and work in areas they are good at doing. But, I will add, they both are hard workers. And yes, both had tutoring in areas of need through out school.
Beverly Fraud
August 8th, 2012
11:15 am
@Mary Elizabeth, it makes sense to teach children where they are at but…
…when one goes to take tennis lessons, they often offer three levels:
-Beginner
-Intermediate
-Advanced
We don’t put the beginner in the advance class, because well, it’s “advanced.” It’s just foolish to think that putting Serena Williams and Betty White in the same tennis class benefits either one of them.
We wouldn’t expect the instructor to teach beginning, middle, and advanced all at the SAME time. So why do we expect it of class teachers, to teach a student on a 2nd grade reading level at the SAME time as they are teaching one at the 9th grade level?
Does that make COMMON sense?
tchr
August 8th, 2012
11:20 am
Just to add to the commentary about financial incentives for colleges to admit below level students:
repeat after me – FREE LOAN MONEY
The kids who don’t get HOPE get plenty of money in the form of student loans from the DoE. The universities then get this money in the form of tuition and fees while the students are on the hook to pay it all back.
The incentive is to keep kids in the system because the loans are awarded based on several factors but primarily tuition and cost of living. This is true at all levels of technical/community/collegiate/university education.
Here’s the scenario:
I’m a kid who got out of HS with a fairly limited set of knowledge and skills. I apply to technical and/or community college. My counselors at least made sure my family filled out FAFSA. The DoE tells me that they will give me a check for $20-30k to cover school and cost of living for as long as I am in school. I have to pay it back eventually.
Do I take it?
You all know the answer.
mountain man
August 8th, 2012
11:28 am
“Not “social promotion,” but “continuous progress” for mastery.”
If a 3rd grader is having to shve, there hasn’t been a lot of “continuous progress”. Yes, I am unwilling to see the excuses for social promotion; I don’t like the idea of 9th graders who can’t do simple arithmetic. At some point “catching up” is impossible. Especially with 30 kids to a class.
3schoolkids
August 8th, 2012
11:31 am
I once edited engineering reports at a former job and was shocked at the lack of language arts skills reflected in those reports. These were mostly Georgia Tech grads and it would truly have been a shame if they had been denied college entrance due to their clearly remedial level of language arts.
This article just highlights how our difficulties in public education are exacerbated at the college level. Not everyone is good at everything. Do we hold them ALL to the same standard and risk relegating a talent to a menial future? Or do we try to identify the gifts and strengths of a student and support that while remediating deficiencies. Sometimes all it takes is a little investigation. I have a family member diagnosed with dyscalculia who has great difficulty with some higher math concepts, but tested at a high level for organizational skills and ended up in charge of an army unit’s supply/logistics in iraq/kuwait.
It is easy to say we should draw a line in the sand and make everyone comply until it is someone you know that is impacted. I recently read somewhere that we need to change the statement “thinking outside the box” to “there is no box”. Maybe the problem is we’ve been too busy putting our kids in boxes.
Dr. Craig Spinks/ Georgians for Educational Excellence
August 8th, 2012
11:31 am
ESSENTIAL QUESTIONS: To what extent is the prevalence of remedial classes in USG schools a function of the lack of rigor in GAPubEd secondary schools’ college-prep programs? To what extent is it a function of USG schools’ admitting HS grads who did not complete a college-prep program?
Mary Elizabeth
August 8th, 2012
11:37 am
Beverly Fraud, 11:03 am
“No Mary Elizabeth, but they could keep an 8 year old in third grade for another year, when he is actually only ONE year behind; instead of waiting to do remediation in high school, when he is YEARS behind.”
============================================================
Beverly, have you considered that most students are not “behind” across-the-board in their courses? What if a student is behind in reading skills (for an average 3rd grade student), but he is on grade level in his mathematics skills (or even above grade level in math) for the average 3rd grade student? Would you have that student sit through all of the 3rd grade curriculum, a second time, even though he had already mastered part of the curriculum for 3rd grade?
I am not saying that we should not address instructional deficiencies as soon as recognized even as far back as kindergarten, in fact, we must; I am saying, though, that remediating these deficiencies – that have been years in the making even before kindergarten – will often take several years to remediate, and I am saying that every student must be taught – where he is precisely functioning – in every curriculum area, in every grade level, for the student to advance in academics. Right now, 35% of students drop out of school, in a statewide school design in which a “lock-step” grade level curriculum expectation for every student prevails (which does not account for the organic instructional variances among students in their grade levels). Furthermore, right now, 90% of prison inmates are high school dropouts.
We must become more instructionally sophisticated in our instructional delivery models to all of Georgia’s students – in order to serve well all of these students. Instead of casting blame on the students, their parents, or their teachers, we must focus on addressing individual variances among students throughout their twelve (or more) years in primary and secondary schools. We must be willing to look at a different instructional delivery model than the one we presently implement.
Beverly Fraud
August 8th, 2012
11:37 am
@Mountain man how would you like to be (so it doesn’t damage your self-esteem) “socially promoted” in boxing class so that you were “matriculating” in the ring with Mike Tyson and Evander Holyfield?
If it were me I’d say, “Put me back in the beginner’s class where I BELONG!”
Maybe if educators saw it THAT way, they’d get a real sense of the DAMAGE they are doing by pushing kids through who aren’t ready.
redweather
August 8th, 2012
11:49 am
@ whirled peas, You write: “I am willing to bet a good portion of those taking remedial courses are attending on Hope scholarships.” Although I don’t have any statistics handy, I do not believe this is so.
@ mountain man, You write: “What ever happened to a minimum SAT score to get accepted to a college?” Research has shown that the SAT is not as good a predictor of college success as high school GPA. There is also the continuing complaint that the SAT test questions are culturally biased. Finally, tons of people have bought into the idea that not everyone is a good test taker. It is true that some people don’t test well; then again, there will always be plenty of people who want to believe they (and/or their kids) are smarter than they really are.
Ole Guy
August 8th, 2012
11:51 am
Whether it’s a big “hootn’holler” over rising CRCT/ACT/SAT or the diminishing rates at which kids get lost within the confines of the “reading room”…When are the powers that be going to stop behaving like a bunch of rubes celebrating the psuedo-successes which are the hallmark of mediocrity. Is this supposed to signify a leap and a bound in the educational leadership which seems to have infested the whole damn mess which passes for education.
Beverly Fraud
August 8th, 2012
11:52 am
Beverly, have you considered that most students are not “behind” across-the-board in their courses?
@Mary Elizabeth, I have. I’m not sure it’s “most” (because if you are behind in reading, you tend to be behind in everything, including math.)
But if that were the case, why not tell Johnny “You’re going down the hall to take math in Mrs. Jones 4th grade math class.” And depending on how well his self esteem can handle it, you could even add “If you want to spend the ENTIRE day there, improve your reading! (And yes I think we’d be surprised at just how many 8 year olds who COULD HANDLE that conversation, without the politically correct sugar coating)
While teachers should employ multiple METHODS to engage all students, it just doesn’t seem like the best use of time to ask teachers to create multiple LESSONS in the classroom. Seems more logically to place children initially where they’d have their BEST chance of success, then let raise and lower the bar as needed throughout that lesson.
That sounds far more logical than putting Betty White and Serena Williams in the same tennis class.
Bernie
August 8th, 2012
11:55 am
Another nameless and faceless entity ” THE STATE” is cracking down on the most neediest students who are making an effort to attain a higher level of education. Instead of this reporter identifying what agency,group or specific individuals responsible for such a DASTARDLY and UNCONSCIONABLE ACT. Her story further shields them by allowing them to remain anonymous! I call on the AJC and Maureen to provide a additional information other than “THE STATE”. As we all know
“THE STATE ” cannot act without PEOPLE implementing policy.
SHAME SHAME! on You Maureen for allowing this to got to print as is! and for not demanding more information!
For those of us who are informed are well are aware what groups this effort is specifically targeted for dis encouragement. At least (85%) of all enrolled minority students that are enrolled in Georgia’s colleges typically are remanded to remedial courses in their first year of college. The Georgia Board Of Regents instead of providing a helping hand of assistance to these students, they are giving shoving BOTH HEELS in their faces, that says TOO BAD! for you, if this is your LOT in LIFE.
This move smacks of past Racial and cultural insensitivity of Georgia ugly discriminatory past of years gone by. This move is SHAME and an OUTRAGE!
What does this say to student who comes from a failing HIGH SCHOOL unprepared and still want to someday attain the American DREAM? Education has always been the KEY. The State Republicans as usual wants to take us ALL back to the era 1950’s when it comes to educating our Children and the Healthcare of Women.
If WE ALL remain SILENT….Soon and pretty soon these same polices will one day find themselves at your Front Door refusing you or your family members a better opportunity and chance to improve their lives and reach the AMERICAN DREAM!
A people’s SILENCE is the first conspirator when the “STATE” enacts a dictatorial policy it wills on the DREAMS and HOPES of its citizens!
Where are MARTIN”S DREAMERS?, Awake for your NIGHTMARE is starting AGAIN!
Ole Guy
August 8th, 2012
12:01 pm
Pickin up the ax…isn’t this something which should have taken place a long long time ago! Had the educational gurus not supported…with the HOPE scholarship…remedials a long long time ago, is it at all possible that the entire program, today, would be both solvent and maybe even bountiful. Maybe, instead of anybody and everybody bellying up to the trough (talk about the younger croud complaining about seniors and their so-called entitlements), this whole program would have been administered with just a wee bit of forethought, MAYBE the moaning, groaning and the “woe-is-me” complaining over college funding wouldn’t be such a major issue as it has become. This entire line of reasoning only serves to solidify the fact that YOU PEOPLE are the designers; the architects of the fiscal challenges which YOU and YOU alone so richly deserve. have a good damn day!
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Claudia Stucke
August 8th, 2012
12:06 pm
@David Granger
Actually, we have had (and may still have) benchmark tests; but they are a waste of time and money. As recently as 2010 (and perhaps beyond–I haven’t taught since then), for each core course, DeKalb County high school students were routinely subjected to periodic benchmark tests (paired as “pre-tests” and “post-tests,” purporting to measure progress–or lack thereof, which reflected not on the student but on the teacher). Using an Excel spreadsheet, teachers had to track each individual student’s score for each test over the semester or school year and submit scores to the DCSS school board. Students did not take these tests seriously and sometimes even turned in answer sheets without even reading the questions. Heaven only knows what the board did with those scores; we never received any feedback. (The original tests were created by the county; but some were so poorly done that several colleagues and I complained to the county and were given the job of revamping them. Although we were essentially doing county employees’ jobs for them, we were not compensated for our time and effort. Given that these so-called “benchmark tests” were unavoidable, we just wanted a more relevant and appropriate test.) As displeased as I was about spending several hours every two weeks doing the administration, scoring, and statistical analysis that these tests required, I resented even more the time they took away from instruction and hands-on learning.
Parents and the general public are more familiar with the CRCT, which has been much in the news for the past year. Although the eighth-grade CRCTs are meant to prevent unprepared middle-school students from entering high school, they do not fulfill this objective. Students who fail are “required” to go to summer school and receive remedial instruction. If the students still don’t pass, parents may opt out by signing a waiver, saying that they understand that their child is not proficient in certain skills but is going on to the next level of education regardless. I wondered why some ninth-graders, who could barely read, were advancing through the system until another teacher told me about the waiver and her experiences as a CRCT-remediation summer school teacher. So I wonder, what’s the point of all this? Was it simply compliance with NCLB? If so, since Georgia has now opted out of NCLB, now what?
Ashley
August 8th, 2012
12:10 pm
This is what happens when schools allow social promotions to exist…..this only leads to remedial courses in college. Why are they even in a place of higher learning if remedial courses are needed? Most colleges and universities require the SAT/ACT pair that with an adequate GPA and this should weed out the less than stellar high school senior. When will these bureaucrats get it through their head that not all high school students are college bound. It would appear that the 4-year plan is not enough anymore, we are now suppose to accept the idea that it takes 6 years or more to complete college. Anyone who can’t read and write on a 12th grade level shouldn’ t be in college in the first place. High schools use to be about readiness and academic achievement , not social promotion or mediocrity. This “diploma mill” education needs to cease, until then Georgia education will continue to be a laughingstock when it comes to preparing student for college and the real world.
Beverly Fraud
August 8th, 2012
12:13 pm
@Claudia Stucke,
Thank you for improving Georgia’s education by leaving the profession. Not saying that because you were a poor teacher, saying that because I suspect you were a GOOD teacher.
About the ONLY way the public schools are going to get it is by seeing a MASSIVE BRAIN DRAIN out of the public schools. People like Fled, Jordan K. and others will EVENTUALLY be felt, hopefully.
d
August 8th, 2012
12:14 pm
I don’t know if they still do this or not, but when I worked in Gwinnett several years ago, they had a program for students who may have mastered part of a grade-level curriculum but not the entire curriculum. It was almost a grade 7.5 – OK, so you got the English, Social Studies, and Science curriculum. We’ll let you take those 8th grade courses, but you need to redo 7th grade Math so you get that. It is a better solution than holding the student back an entire year when they only need help in a certain area…..
As far as my comment earlier, I was without internet access to reply earlier, but I believe the CCRPI is the measurement that will be used for the 12-13 year moving forward. There is also a component about the “number of tested students exceeding X on the SAT/ACT (I forget the exact numbers off of the top of my head). I’ve had students who take the test – most certainly not ready for it – scoring in the triple digits on the 2400 scale. That student should have NEVER taken the test to begin with. Honestly, if you look at most of the issues with Georgia’s SAT scores as compared to places like North Dakota – look at who is taking the test. Huge numbers of students take the test here (many of whom shouldn’t be) but only the top students take the test in North Dakota. That is not showing a failing of Georgia education as compared to North Dakota, but rather we need to realize not everyone should be preparing to go to college.
Ole Guy
August 8th, 2012
12:18 pm
Bev, your “insightful” suggestions simply scream at precisely what is wrong with the educational morass. You can’t spoon-feed these kids…”does this hurt? is that too difficult? are you comfortable? are you happy? let me rub your bottom with a dab of baby lotion?
Never mind the multiple “designer” approaches to teaching, the raising and lowering of performance bars according to the desires of the kids. Sure, we all learn at different levels and at different paces…you wanna know why? BECAUSE YOU, THE EDUCATIONAL COMMUNITY, ALLOWS IT! When the gd politicians pontificate over preping kids for a competitive world economy, do you honestly believe this “self-paced” approach is the key? HELL DAMN NO! These kids need to develop that sense of urgency in their approach to that which we property-owning adults pay for and which we SHOULD expect. Anything else simply will not do!
Were we, the older gen, much better? Hell no! We had to be pushed, prodded and threatened with the very real prospect of failure…or abject failure. These kids, today, know they are all but guaranteed “success”, false though it may be. YOU, the (so-called) experts had best get with it and stop wasting these kids’ lives…you’ve already destroyed your own; theirs no point dragging these unsuspecting kids with you.
Mary Elizabeth
August 8th, 2012
12:19 pm
Beverly Fraud, 11:15 am
“We don’t put the beginner in the advance class, because well, it’s ‘advanced.’ It’s just foolish to think that putting Serena Williams and Betty White in the same tennis class benefits either one of them.”
—————————————————-
We agree on this point.
==========================================
“We wouldn’t expect the instructor to teach beginning, middle, and advanced all at the SAME time. So why do we expect it of class teachers, to teach a student on a 2nd grade reading level at the SAME time as they are teaching one at the 9th grade level?”
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You are assuming that all teachers simply lecture to a class – at one time – for every period of every day of the school year. This does not happen. Teachers vary their instructional delivery, often by subgrouping their students, and they will act as facilitators to learning to individuals in those various subgroups within their classrooms, in addition to lecturing at other times. In my own classes, I had sometimes lectured for 20 to 25 minutes, and then subgrouped students to work on the concepts of the lecture for the remainder of the class time. During the last half of the class period, I would rotate to each group to work with the individual needs of each group. Furthermore, master scheduling can place students more precisely in correct instuctional settings to start with, thus avoiding unnecessary failure; teachers can team teach to address student variances between their classes; paraprofessionals can aid teachers in accommodating instructional variances among students, and at times school volunteers, or instructional “coaches,” can work with individual students within a teacher’s class period. There are many ways to address individual variances, but first we must see the value in trying to do so.
(At the beginning of every school year, the first goal I had was to ascertain, through analyzing the individual reading scores of all of my 150 advanced reading students, if my students were correctly placed in my advanced reading class. If I believed that any were misplaced, based on their standardized reading test scores, I talked with those particular students, their parents, and their counselors, individually, to recommend highly that they be changed to the “personalized reading” course for that year, or at least for that semester, until they had increased their reading skills enough to be correctly placed in my advanced reading class. Invariably, because my suggestions, based on these students’ reading data and their previous performances, parents, students, and counselors agreed to the switch of course at the very beginning of the school year because my suggestions were sound ones and would alleviate unnecessary failure. Often, the following year, many of these students, then, would enrolled in my advanced reading class at which time, they would meet with success, and not failure.)
Please read the link below about an excellent 5th grade science teacher who did subgroup to accommodate instructional variances in her classroom, and changed the lives of her students by doing so. It is called “Cyndie’s Story.” It is a true story.
http://maryelizabethsings.wordpress.com/2012/02/11/cyndies-story/
Teacher
August 8th, 2012
12:34 pm
Why are colleges/universities footing the bill? If a student needs remedial courses then surely they are paying for them. I would assume remedial students are not those receiving HOPE $. If so, that should be changed. Any tutoring/remediation needed to enroll in true college level courses should be at the student’s expense.
Mary Elizabeth
August 8th, 2012
12:49 pm
“Seems more logically to place children initially where they’d have their BEST chance of success. . .”
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I agree. See my 12:19 pm post for pursuing correct placement, in depth.
Precise instructional delivery for each student has no simple answers, but it can be addressed, effectively, throughout every student’s elementary and secondary educational tenure.
Jane W.
August 8th, 2012
1:00 pm
@Bernie: Once again trying to sow hatred of Republicans, Bernie?
You need to move out of mommy’s basement, make more friends, find a job and pay taxes. The world will gradually become a less frightening place for you.
And hey, give the caps key a break! You LOOK even less emotionally stable than you sound.
Eleanor Eisenberg
August 8th, 2012
2:19 pm
@ Claudia Stucke
re: 12:06 p.m.
I think that you and David Granger are talking about two different things when you talk about “benchmark” tests. As he pointed out, we don’t have mandatory tests that students MUST pass in order to move to the next level. Most European countries (and just about ALL Asian countries) do…and they are absolutely ruthless in enforcing that. They don’t have tests every year like we do, but most students take the exams at about the Jr. High level…and then again after High School. And if you don’t pass, then that’s it. One strike, and you’re out…go learn a trade. Some countries do allow failing students to take a test again, but only after taking private remedial courses (at their own expense)…and some countries do not. (To be fair, most of those other countries do have much better technical training programs than the U.S., and skilled laborers are not looked down upon like they sometimes are in this country, unfortunately.)
In the U.S., as you point out, if a student doesn’t pass the benchmark test…they are given other chances and their parents have the option of signing a waiver that lets their kids advance no matter what. The benchmark tests are for information only, not an absolute requirement that must be passed successfully in order to move on to higher grades.
footing the bill
August 8th, 2012
2:31 pm
@ Teacher
There seems to be a prevailing attitude among some of
the posted comments that some students are entitled to
the HOPE funding and other students are not based on
their university course placement. I think the state of
Georgia should subsidize college, but I also understand
that no matter how great the SAT,and ACT scores of
the student may be the responsibility for paying for
the education rest with the parents and students. During
better economic times, the state could argue that the
HOPE scholarship was necessary to keep the best
talent in Georgia, but that no longer is the case as
many students across the country have reconsidered
attending pricier schools and have sought admission
into their state schools because of the economic value
and the condition of the economy. If requirements have
been established and the students have met those
requirements, they should receive the HOPE funding.
If the state decides to revise the standards for receiving
HOPE, maybe the best way to allocate the funding is
to distribute the funds equitably to the public universities
so all students will get the benefit of some reduction in
tuition.
footing the bill
August 8th, 2012
2:33 pm
. I think the state of
Georgia should subsidize college, but I also understand
that no matter how great the SAT,and ACT scores of
the student may be, the responsibility for paying for
the education rest with the parents and students.
bootney farnsworth
August 8th, 2012
2:33 pm
one of the many issues I have with the state and how it funds education is there is little to force a college to stop making bad decisions. again, see Anthony Tricoli’s initiative of the week extravaganza.
consider new buildings. the way the USG does this is via allocation of money years in advance. and for only very specific projects. this is OK, it keeps people from running amok. unless you’re UGA and most of the legislators and regents have ties to you and you get what you want, regardless.
problem is, when there are few -if any- mechanisms in place to say “we don’t need that building after all” or “we need to scale it back”. once approved, it goes thru and little short of Jesus can stop it.
actually Jesus can’t, since he’s one of the few individuals who the state happily discriminates again.
but that’s another topic.
but even that is not the worst issue: once again, take GPC as your classic bad example.
when Tricoli decided to initiate his center for forced community service, he decided the most popular place in the Clarkston student center had to go. we called it the “living room”. it had couches, comfortable chairs, and was one of the very few places students could hang out between classes. it was the student center, after all.
despite it being a favorite of the kids -remember the kids, the reason we have/had jobs?- it was in his way. since he couldn’t get a new building, he fell back on the old standby: renovation. we kicked the kids out, spend hundreds of thousands on renovation – you should see this place. it would look good on Wealth TV.
and the irony of it all? we took away the only real student lounge in GPC to replace it with a location intended to force kids to volunteer if they wanted to get a grade.
and that’s not the only place GPC spent copiously on renovation – just the most extravagant.
Bernie
August 8th, 2012
2:34 pm
Jane W. @ 1:00 pm – Who if not the Republicans that are behind this policy I ask of you? Is it the this Republican administration that is moving ahead for the first time with a state funded Charter School push? Is not the precursor for a ultimate push for a state wide school voucher payment system that is so popular with mostly Republican supporters?
Yes, I do get emotional and upset when see unfairness inflicted upon an already struggling segment of our population be further cheated and denied a chance to get
the very thing that YOU and your ilk take for granted.
As for my Mother at least I have ONE!……. I am not so sure about YOU!
This is what happens when you anger the powers that be and pay your AJC subscription online through your son’s e-mail account. Assumptions are made and alleged when the real truth remains unknown and unavailable.
Remember Richard Jewell, slander is a sue able and winnable defense.
bootney farnsworth
August 8th, 2012
2:35 pm
@ footing
I have long supported limiting HOPE for underclassmen to two year schools. 2 year schools are cheaper and (except for GPC) more likely to spend monies wisely.
once they have their two year degree, HOPE can go with them where ever.