Funding education excellence is a long way off in Georgia and getting farther away

[...] Funding education excellence is a long way off in Georgia and getting farther awayAtlanta Journal Constitution (blog)Ernest sent me a link to this Education Week story about weighted student funding. He asked, “What if funding was differentiated based on need and really allowed for the dollars to follow the students? It seems several school districts are already … [...]

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Stop dumbing down the curriculum to the lowest common denominator. Set high standards, keep the standards, teach, stop baby sitting. If a kid doesn’t want to learn, kick them out. At some point this BS has to stop! No one can discipline a child any more. No one can fail a child any more. This is garbage. Reward success, and stop rewarding mediocrity, otherwise we are doomed. Make it cool to be smart and not-cool to be an idiot. Stop this romance with football and basketball. Start a romance with science and math. It can be done. My sister-in-law teaches math in a low income school. She has a robot building club that has 15-20 kids that are JAZZED about the competition with other clubs….it can be done, but we, as a culture have to stop giving awards to the mediocre. In other words, it’s not the money.

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I worked as a public school business official for 24 years and retired in 2002. When I think back on all the state efforts to fund public education and the last one, QBE, in particular, it always came down to the total dollars the legislator and Governor were willing to allocate, regardless of the proven needs of students in all categories throughout the state. QBE has turned out to be a convoluted and failed attempt to send adequate money where student needs have been identified. Rather than looking at the total needs and funding them, based on student counts by category, it has always turned out to be a top-down allocation, with kids always coming up short. In the present environment in Atlanta, this won’t change. When I contact legislators these days about sending adequate money based on the QBE law, they simply don’t reply. It’s very sad.

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A correction to my previous post: Should be “legislature and governor”

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why does it cost more to educate a poor kid than a rich kid?

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Don’t forget to include Title I federal funds that follow the free and reduced students. These are large sums of money awarded to districts and sometimes individual schools because of the number of poor students to create a more level playing field. In most cases, these funds could be used to benefit more classrooms and less as a jobs program for district level supervisors. AJC could look into how these monies are spent; it is public record.

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We can no longer afford to fund special needs and “English as a 2nd language” students. There is no money left over to address the needs of the young people who will be expected in their adult lives to support the kids who are now getting the lion’s share of our resources.

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Cut the fat. Many times it is less about what we spend than about how we spend it. Hint: we have too many administrators.

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bootney farnsworth
July 25th, 2012
7:24 am

“One of the major problems we have here is” an unwillingness, for whatever reason, to look at what is working, or not working in other locales. We all can learn from the mistakes and successes of others but there seems to be a common thread when it comes to political decision-making in this state. From transportation issues to education, if a “yankee” did it, it is not worth studying nor implementing.

NYC moves TEN TIMES the population during rush hours but how they do it, mass transit, road construction that utilizes over/under passes instead of cheaper traffic lights, etc. are not politically savory.

In education, the same thing is happening. Local pundits decry our education system compared to other states’ results (I won’t get into the way the comparisons are being made, that’s another problem) but then refuse to look at what is working in those states.

Do you see a disconnect?

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Isnt it a fact that the money isnt reaching the classroom most of the time anyway. The bloated warthog that is the Dekalb school system is probably one of the poster children for why the state doesnt want to dole out funds. Too many ppl with way-too high salaries on North Decatur Road.

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Here we go again… the mantra of the Educrats: “SPEND MORE MONEY!”

We already spend more money on education than anybody else in the world. The problem isn’t that we don’t spend enough, the problem is that what we do spend is WASTED by a massive government+government employee union bureaucracy that’s interested in featherbedding for itself as opposed to actually doing what it’s begin paid for.

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We’re funding more and more of education at the local level – and now they’re asking us to vote for “just one cent” so that we can take up the slack from the state on transportation spending? Who thinks that’s where it will end up?

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seabeau….how many kids in your child’s small private school didn’t speak english, had grandparents raising them because dad disappeared and mom is a drug addict, lived in temporary homes (i.e homeless shelters), had families living below the poverty level, had parents that hung up the phone the minute the teacher announced who she/he was, never showed for parent conferences, had serious discipline problems, couldn’t read, moved 2-3 times every year, came to school just to deal their drugs or because the probation officer said jail or school, had serious handicaps, etc.

I think probably none….use some common sense please. There’s no way around it…kids with these kinds of problem do not get educated on the cheap-cheap. Kids who’s parents do half the work of school are a piece of cake (well comparatively speaking) to educate.

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Fran Millar has already publicly stated his education funding proposals — Cut teacher pay and raise local millage rates.
So nice to have such bold, innovative “leadership” here in Georgia, huh?

@Jeff- The lottery provided funding for preK, the HOPE scholarship, and certain technology-related expenses. It has NEVER been used to fund any aspect of the k12 budget. Please get your facts straight before posting your next angry rant.

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Every study done shows that there is no correllation between funding and educational quality. Washington DC spends more money than any school district in the nation and they have the worst performance. The problems are stuctural, and more money will just mean more failed structure. The govenrment monopoly must end and the socialistic taxpayer funding mechanism must end as well. There will never be any accountability or true service to the customer until the customer is paying and they can take their money and walk when they have been failed by the educational establishment. It is this relationship that makes everything else in the private sector work so well.

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Maybe if we quit giving our tax money away to corporations for the promise of jobs and put it back into education , we might be able to fully fund QBE instead of less than 38% of it.

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Pay for the education when they are young or pay for the incarceration when they are grown. We spend three times as much on prisons as we do on education.

If we are truly to fix the problem we need a birth to 25 policy that educates parents and children. We can’t continue to try and fix students when they begin school after they have spent 5 years with no support. Some of the most developmental years are spent at home before school, 0-5 years old. We can’t ignore the true problems that plague the chronic underperfomers. It is like climbing everast with sandles and a rope in the dead of winter.

For those that don’t truly understand what is happening with the money that is allocated you need to do a little reading and figure it out. The state has cut over 2.2 billion dollars from the budget and local systems can’t make up that kind of difference even by half. The system that I am in has a limited BOE and spends 85% on employee salaries. The other 15% goes to buildings, lights, other bills and to fund the BOE operations. I agree Dekalb and Fulton are wasteful but the rest of the state has been cut to the bone. As for the race to the top funds, out of 400 million dollars the state kept halft and the rest was divide. This money is being spent to implement a new evaluation system and to administer the funds. IT IS NOT BEING SPENT AT THE SCHOOL LEVEL AND DIRECTLY IMPACTING STUDENTS. IT IS CREATING ANOTHER LAYER OF PAPERWORK AND OVER BURDEND TEACHERS AND AMINISTRATORS. If our republican controled house of representatives were true conservative republicans they would have told the feds to keep the money as it is a waste.

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For the sizable cabal on this blog assigned teacher union talking points to endlessly repeat—taxpayers can never pay enough, and the funding pie can never be lopsided enough in favor of Special Educ and other areas requiring staffing bloat.

And any talk of accountability, innovation, education reform or parental choice can never be reviled or second-guessed enough.

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Maureen, I suggest you wait until we are done our work before making a judgement. Most superintendents do not have a problem with our basic formula. It needs to be revised to meet current and future needs (like technology) and applied with consistency for budget purposes. I look forward to your evaluation when we are finished.

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One of the main purposes of state government is to provide for the education of its citizens. “You get what you pay for” in most areas, and that is certainly true in education. The purpose of education is not profit.

It is my opinion that many of Georgia’s educational policies, as determined in large part through Georgia’s Legislature, are being influenced by national forces, outside of Georgia. However, this situation can change, in the future, through the public’s growing awareness of this and through their voting power.

Please read the link below, in full, to understand part of the reason that I hold the opinion that I do, in this regard. Thank you.

http://alecexposed.org/w/images/5/57/2D4-Next_Generation_Charter_Schools_Act_Exposed.pdf

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The link I provided at 10:15 am, above, was lifted from the following link, entitled, “How ALEC is quietly influencing educational reform”:

http://mediamatters.org/print/research/2012/05/09/how-alec-is-quietly-influencing-education-refor/184156

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Correction: Link entitled: “How ALEC is quietly influencing educational reform in Georgia.”

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You want to spend more on education, I want to spend less, so we have stalemate. Soon I will be exempt from paying the school portion of my property tax, so I suspect my interest in this matter will end. My only observation is this: Public education is more about full employment for school teachers than it is about educating the young. I suggest a 10% across the board pay cut for all school employees in DeKalb county, to balance the budget.

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@Fran Millar:

With all due respect, when it comes to traditional public schools our Maureen has never met an anti-reform argument she didn’t like. At least not in memory.

And her newspaper isn’t coy about its Democrat Party alliance.

So why further distract yourself from finding solutions to Georgia’s education problems? Look to nearby Louisiana for innovations—and the public-spirited resolve to carry them out.

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@crankee-yankee:
When big private companies fail, the economy feels the pain.

If Lehman were a public entity, your cry would be “It’s failing. We need to give it MORE money.”

Bad private companies fail and go away. I’ve never heard of a bad public entity failing. They just seem to get more money. The worse a public entity does, the more money it gets.

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And Cranky Yankee – If you don’t understand the role the Federal Reserve, government banking and financial regulations, and dozens of other direct government actions played in the current economic crisis, then please get educated before you attempt to comment. We do not have a free market in anything anymore in this country. The entire financial system is controlled by the government on behalf of businesses and the banking cartel. If you think that has anything to do with a truly free maket then again, please get educated. http://www.mises.org is a great place to start.

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I really don’t know how many times I have to repeat this. FUNDING IS NOT THE PROBLEM. When all of you realize that spending has been wasted on a system that has not been reformed in more than a century, then perhaps Georgia will become a leader, not a laggard, in reforming its education system.

I know that the funding formula is going to be revisited in the next legislative session. But at the same time, we need to fix the myriad of problems, which includes bloated district budgets (especially central office), better teacher training, more effective teacher evaluation systems, and a focus on digital learning.

There’s a reason why Tennessee placed second in the RTTT grants. It is taking the courageous steps to try and fix the problems. Instead of complaining on this blog and hiding behind the stances of self-interest groups such as the teacher unions, how about having the courage to truly reform how we educate our kids? As a taxpayer, I for one do not want to see more wasted spending like what is going on in APS and Dekalb.

Shameful – and embarrassing. It just reinforces what is in the Georgia Constitution, which is to only provide an “adequate” education. We’re not even doing that.

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Not exactly on topic, but definitely related – three models that changed the one-teacher/one classroom model and actually could raise teacher salaries and cut costs (yeah, yeah, I know – I didn’t believe it either – read the article!): http://opportunityculture.org/reach/pay-teachers-more/

Another option I found intriguing was basing funding on outcome – how many graduates a system produced as opposed to “butts in seats” – how many students a system had. I believe a system in Oregon was looking at this funding model.

For all the talk about reform, it seems like all measures always come down to teachers, when in reality there are lots of areas for reform, funding being a key one. The mishmash of money sources is truly insane, and something I had no idea about as a parent. It’s not just fed/state/district – it’s also grants and PTA. Federal money isn’t one pot – it’s SPED/ESOL/Title I, II, III. State money doesn’t come from just income taxes and district money doesn’t just come from property taxes. It’s easy to sit on the outside and offer soundbite solutions, but the problem is extraordinarily complex.

For the record, I believe the other areas of reform, in addition to the funding model, include our academic-year/calendar-age based groupings of k12, teacher training, and school structure…and no, I’m not a member of the GAE/NEA – just like 65% – the majority – of Georgia teachers.

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At one of its first meetings last year, the task force heard from outgoing House Budget Office director John Brown, who said, “We are not going to come up with a formula that reaches for excellence. We are not putting an orchestra in every school. We are going to create a formula so that every school system has enough money to get the basic job done.”

Let me remind Mr. Brown of what the State of Georgia constitution says about education:

The provision of an adequate public education for the citizens shall be a primary obligation of the State of Georgia

This leads me to believe that Mr. Brown believes that “adequate education” equates to “just enough money to get the basic job done”.

Further proof of the lack of committment of this generation of politicians has for public education in our state.

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@Maureen, re “Show me your evidence and spare me the empty rhetoric.”

Indeed. And what was the black/white “achievement gap” in those four states you mentions when normalized for socioeconomic status? Riiggghhhhttt

Which leads me back to @Solutions post above, it really is about IQ. The bottom line is that you cannot teach the student with an IQ of 80 in the same manner and pace that you can a student with an IQ of 120. But yet, that is what the current education structure tries to do.

The most cost effective and sensible solution would be to segregate students by ability/achievement and provide instruction at a pace and level commensurate with that ability/achievement level. But, the politically correct educrats know if they did, students would soon become segregated by race, and Lord knows we can’t have that. We can’t touch the third rail of a politically correct society by providing evidence that there really is a difference between the races.

And so we producers will continue to overfund the current, bloated education system while politicians try to find ways to divert more money to the money pit.

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Mary Elizabeth,

We all know how you despise Charter Schools. There is no need to continue with your rants.

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@ Maureen:

If the Milwaukee tuition voucher program isn’t delivering for parents—then why is it over-subscribed year after year? And why hasn’t decades of labor union effort to limit parental choice failed to end the program or the public’s interest in it?

Wisconsin’s Gov. Scott Walker, perhaps the most visible proponent of the voucher system you seek here to discredit, just won a resounding election victory in the May recall election.

Are Wisconsin’s parents and voters stupid? … or do they see that your side offers no answers—only endless debate, ever more spending, and continued failure to move the ball.

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@Jane – I get a big kick out of these people that point to a “resounding” victory in a recall election. That there were enough votes to even have a recall election is indictment enough against Walker and his tactics.

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Every time I see the word “excellence” bolted, as a descriptive, onto another word, it can be automatically noted that said discriptive is (in the raw, unpleasant as it may seem) BS! At this particularly sorry state of educational affairs, howbout we stop worrying about achieving anything remotely resembling excellence and simply go back to those basics…you know, like how to reed, rat, and do a lil’ rithmitic. We’ve fooled ourselves for far far too long; the sooner we start realizing that, the better off these stupid kids will be; the better they just might be able to fund my Social Sec…you know, like ALL the generations have been able to do. I believe that, along with a multitude of other things, is what is referred to as the civic duties of youth…GET A GD EDUCATION, STOP POINTING FINGERS, AND START PRODUCING. You can only blame the rest of the world for so long before that mean ole reality strikes…COMPRENDE!?

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Oops, spelled his name wrong – Roland Fryer: http://hvrd.me/M8Cj4V Financial Incentives and Student Achievement

In summary, the gist of what he found was that the incentive needed to be tied to something the students could control such as number of books read or attendance. It did not work well for things largely out of the students’ control such as grades or standardized test scores.

Daniel Pink also has some interesting thoughts on incentivizing tasks and how that can actually work against motivation…but if planned smartly and effectively, I think this kind of investment would be a good one.

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@CCMSt – Roland Fryer’s work is VERY controversial. I do NOT support bribing students for achievement. However, I have no problems with creating other reward systems and other mechanisms to motivate students.

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@Jane….still gotta have A LOT of voters sign a recall petition to have a recall election…….It was an extraordinary event.

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But somehow those petition signers turned out NOT to be actual Wisconsin voters, eh Ron?

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More funding? We already spend far too much trying to “educate” dummies. Most Americans aren’t really capable of much outside of banal manual labor and tee-vee watching, anyway. Georgia can lead the way by putting its boobs and sub-mediocrities to work now rather than afflicting the taxpayers further!

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People on this blog have blinders on! The system is broken and needs to be fixed. More funding won’t solve Georgia’s education woes!

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Trying to get a bunch of people with low IQs to really understand how critical IQ is – now that’s a tough assignment.

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I just think it’s adorable how, in every discussion involving education, self-proclaimed experts come out of the woodwork to proclaim that all the ills of the public education system would be fixed if only their simplistic ideas were put in place.

Face it, folks. Georgia politicians do not value public education because the school systems can’t kick back fat donations to them. They want private, for-profit companies to gain a greater foothold through charter schools, so state funding can funnel through private pockets and back to theirs. They don’t mind spending money on the public school system; they just hate it that they can’t get a greater piece of the action.

They don’t have a profit motive for fixing public schools, so they want to give themselves one. They got halfway there with the scheme that allows tax-deductible corporate donations to private schools. Charter schools with no local accountability will really rev up their gravy train, forever damning the public school system to the back seat of mediocrity.

Don’t say you weren’t warned.

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I could cite study after study that shows no correlation between spending and student outcomes (within reason). One cannot achieve education excellence through funding. If it were possible, Georgia would ALREADY have world class schools. The U.S…. AND GEORGIA… already spend more on education than just about everywhere else in the world. Anyone purporting this, including MD, loses credibility.

As far as the “state” vs “local” vs “federal” funding go, the point is moot. ALL FUNDING COMES FROM THE SAME POOL OF TAXPAYERS, either through property, sales or income taxes. If we are going to get in a p*ssing contest about how much say someone should have in education, the TAXPAYERS who pay all three of these taxes should have the MOST say.

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@Dekalb Teacher – just an additional thought I had – as someone occasionally motivated by money, I balk at the idea of bonuses based on the students’ test scores – why? Because it’s largely something out of my control. How funny that the Fryer study basically found the incentives worked LEAST successfully for elements out of the students’ control…like test scores.

Almost the flip side of what you said about paying teachers vs paying students. Incroyable.

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Corrrection: ” . . . in which I had written, in part, that ‘I have nothing against public charter schools. . .’ “

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DeKalb Inside Out
July 25th, 2012
11:02 am

“When big private companies fail, the economy feels the pain.”

I guess they are too big then.

“The worse a public entity does, the more money it gets.”

Using that logic, I guess GA must be an educational leader at this point after $5.3 Billion in cuts over the past 10 years.

“If Lehman were a public entity, your cry would be “It’s failing. We need to give it MORE money.”” – Glad to know you are blessed with psychic abilities that you can place words in my mouth.

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@teacher dad; you should do what I did, get a prescription from your peditrician and take your child to Children’s Healthcare for Speech Therapy. If your child has a speech delay, it is yours and every parent’s responsibility to get that child the medical treatment they need. If you are a teacher in a public school system, your health insurance cover’s Speech Therapy through a registerd Speech Therapist with a doctors prescription. Sure you might have a co-pay, but that is how parenthood is.

My daughter was 6 and at Catholic School when they had the Atlanta Speech School come in and evaluate all of the students. What were my choices take her and enroll her at the Speech School about 16K then over 20K now. Get the doctor to write a presciption for Speech Therapy, take her to Children’s Healthcare for their Speech therapy clinic, for several months. Or try to get the public School District to pay for it. I was living in Cobb County and was told that Cobb County would not give her any priority until she was 8. I was also told by Professionals that 8 would be too old to really address the problem. Now if I lived in Fulton County it would be a different story, they would cover this at 6. Sure enough one of the other parent’s at the Catholic School whose child had the same diagnose, took her child to Fulton County Schools for Speech Therapy once a week for free. The real kicker is her husband makes over $200K a year. The Fortune 100 company he works for their insurance would have paid for the speech therapy too, but she didn’t want to pay the $40 or so co-pay, since she lived in Fulton and could just take her daughter to Heards Ferry for an hour once a week.

This is another reason we need Healthcare coverage for all. Healthcare coverage does pay for Speech Therapy. It should not be the school’s responsibility, but the parents. The parent’s should pay for it through their insurance and co-payment.

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In addition to the Commission, the Smarter Funding, Better Outcomes initiative is focusing on just this – how Georgia funds via QBE. We will:

Create a roadmap for K-12 finance reform that includes in-depth research on Georgia’s current education funding formula and how it might be improved to better meet our students’ needs.

Evaluate how key characteristics of high-quality funding systems – such as efficiency, flexibility, innovation and transparency – could transform Georgia’s current funding strategy, making it easier to track how dollars impact students and outcomes.

Encourage the education community, business leaders, parents, elected officials – everyone with an interest in Georgia students – to join the discussion and support smarter funding strategies that will lead to better outcomes for students and a brighter future for all Georgians.

If you are interested in the funding aspect of ed reform, I encourage you to explore our QBE in action interactive graphic, and get involved in the conversation for change @ http://www.smartk12funding.com.

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Sorry Ron, but I have a 12-month rather than a 9-month job and couldn’t get immediately back to you.

Indeed, it was ruled that “Mickey Mouse” and “Adolf Hitler” (two actual signatures turning up multiple times on those recall petitions you cite) had to be accepted as “possible” Wisconsin residents.

That aside, to the rest of us it was telling that a pulp mountain of petition paper and much loud hoopla by unions—ended in a whimper. Gov. Scott Walker increased his victory margin by 50 percent over that in the 2010 election.

ref: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1211/70429.html

And to add insult to injury—now that union membership is no longer mandatory teachers are apparently opting out of the local National Education Association affiliate in droves.

ref: http://www.jsonline.com/news/education/127806733.html

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Libs answer to everything: just spend (aka Throw) money at the problem & it some point it will go away.

APS spends 12k on students; North Fulton less than half that.

North Fulton schools >>>>>>>> APS schools

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Fran Millar, your last post states not everyone should be educated to go to college. No one would disagree but the devil is in the details. Don’t you think that a meritocracy requires that everyone be educated to their maximum ability regardless of their origins? Or do you believe in some sort of Social Darwinism where only the children of the wealthy (the fittest) get that opportunity? What is your alternative to improving the public schools? Support your position with facts, not ideological rhetoric. Do you think children of the wealthy who do not perform well in their private schools should be denied entry to colleges and universities? Or is money always an exception? Why?

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Enter your comments here

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Yuzeyurbrane, why don’t you read HB400(Bridge bill) and HB186 to see what options we are giving young people. It has nothing to do with wealth. It is college and/or career ready. Sounds like you have a class warfare problem based on your comments. These bills (now law) are fact not ideological rhetoric.

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Please note that the website given by SmartKFunding, at 1:59 pm is led by Georgia’s Chamber of Commerce. See the words, below, from that website, stated under “More” within “Initiatives”:

“The Smarter Funding, Better Outcomes initiative is led by the Georgia Chamber of Commerce, the state’s largest business advocacy organization, which represents a diverse range of industries on key policy issues at the state and federal level to ensure Georgia remains economically competitive. . .

The Chamber is committed to improving educational outcomes for Georgia students in order to provide employers with the qualified workforce they need now and in the future. . .

Funding for Smarter Funding, Better Outcomes is provided through a grant by the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation to the Georgia Chamber Foundation, a 501(c)(3) affiliate of the Chamber that works to educate key stakeholders and the public on policies consistent with the Chamber’s guiding mission.”

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Readers should, also, be aware that Georgia’s Chamber of Commerce supported HR 1162 in the last legislative session, which provided the amendment to Georgia’s Constitution to be voted on in November, which will give the state of Georgia the right to establish public charter schools beyond the jurisdiction of local school districts. See the link below:

http://www.gachamber.com/supportshr1162/

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And, from that link, given immediately above, please read the following excerpt, below, in which ALEC is mentioned:

“The Chamber has designated HR 1162 as a scorecard issue for 2012.

Inadequate Education System is Harming Georgia’s Economy

Georgia ranks near the bottom of the nation in standardized test scores and high school graduation rates, and far below the national average in college completion and other measures. . .

Georgia spends a total of $11,498 per student per year – more than the national average – to achieve these subpar results, according to the American Legislative Exchange Council. That’s a poor return on investment. [NOTE: ALEC is the American Legislative Exchange Council. Also, note that the U.S. Chamber of Commerce is a member of ALEC.]

Charter Schools Provide Georgia Students with Quality Options

Charter schools are public schools that typically produce better results for students – and for less funding than traditional public schools. . .”
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The website provided by SmartKFunding at 1:59 pm appears to be a site with a political agenda for a certain type of educational reform, to me. Why not reform traditional public education, from within? That is my question. However, traditional public education cannot make substantive reform from within, if funds to traditional public education are cut by state legislators. Think about it.

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@Jane W “Indeed, it was ruled that “Mickey Mouse” and “Adolf Hitler” (two actual signatures turning up multiple times on those recall petitions you cite) had to be accepted as “possible” Wisconsin residents.”

First of all, I am not Ron. So please address me by my screen name when you are responding to a question I sent. Secondly, you suggest that NONE of the signatures on the recall petition were legit, and then can only come up with TWO… let me repeat that…TWO illegitimate signatures out nearly 1 million?

I would hardly call that “proof” of anything.

@CCMST “a recent survey done by Salary.com showed Americans admitted to wasting an average of 2 hours of their employers time per day.”

I thought about that the other day when I was traveling with someone who was on vacation who kept playing word games with their office mates (who were not on vacation). They sent updates ALL DAY LONG, and it did not matter when they were sent, replies came back within minutes. So just how hard were those office mates working at those private sector jobs?

But it is we teachers who get accused of being lazy. Know how much time I ‘waste’ when I am working? NOT A MINUTE. In fact, I end up giving my employer about two hours of MY time (unpaid) every day.

I understand the temptation of folks to try and simply the issues facing public education, but the fact is, the problems are COMPLEX – so no easy solution is going to “fix things.” Do private schools REALLY do a better job of educating our youth? Not overall, according to studies that control for things like SES. Do Charters REALLY do a better job of educating out youth? Not overall, according to studies that control for things like SES. Some Charters are great. Some private schools are great. Some traditional public schools are great. And ALL three systems also have their share of failures.

So then, why the big push for Charter and vouchers? Money in someone’s pockets.

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Maureen,
Thanks for keeping the faith and pushing all of us to understand the education issues facing Georgia children, their families, teachers and school districts. It does cost money and for a few years now Georgia has reduced per pupil funding for k to 12 public education, if I recall correctly. We can fund water, bridges, roads, transit and all manner of improvements but without making reforms that serve to drastically improve the education of Georgia’s children we will fail to sustain and grow our economy. It’s hard to imagine this isn’t a common goal, across the aisle, across political parties, across race, ethnicity and economic status and widely accepted by political, business and civic leaders of every generation. Keep pushing us.

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Ron F: I’m deeply sorry if I disturbed your taxpayer-funded and health-insurance-covered leisure time contemplation of coming (autumn) work schedules.

Whatever was I thinking?

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@William – And that “old saw” was actually not at all about public K12 teachers, but about failed musicians, actors, writers, and artists who taught instead of (or until) they could live off their craft.

@I love teaching…a few years back, a women’s magazine I used to subscribe to ran article about “homing from work” – it gave tips on how to take care of personal business on company time. The crazy thing about it was that even if I had wanted to, I could apply any of the so-called tips to my day as a teacher. Funny.

I haven’t always been a teacher – I was in the military, and worked in the private sector for a Fortune 500 company as well as a family-owned business – I also have lots of friends who work in a wide variety of careers and companies. All situations have pros and cons – my advice is that if you don’t like your situation, no matter what it is, you may want to make a change. However, I’ll pull out another “old saw” – the grass is always greener on the other side. Like the guy who said, “Before I was married, I had 6 theories about raising kids – now I have six kids and no theories,” teaching looks like an easy gig from the outside – and good teachers may make it look even more so. Coming in from a non-ed background, I had a lot of ideas – the reality is that it is an enormously complex issue, there is no one solution, the blame game doesn’t work, and just because you sat in a classroom doesn’t mean you are qualified to run one.

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Back in Florida there was a principal that came into a school that was rated F every year since the ratings began. Pahokee High school has turned out more pro football players than any other school in the country. Unfortunately, these athletes can’t read or do math or much of anything else. This principal came in and cleaned house. Fired the football coaches and moved all the throphies and even the trophy cases to the back of the school where no one could see them. She declared that the school would no longer be known as a footbal school and she changed the culture of the school in one fell swoop. The community was outraged and called for her firing. The school board didn’t cave in(this time) and within a year she had that school up to a D. Seven years as a perrennial F rated school and in one year she brought them up. Since then the school has been a C school. Pahokee is one of the poorest, most crime ridden cities in America where almost 100% of the student population is on free/reduced lunch. By changing the focus of the school, she made the students better. She made the community better. It’s still a terrible place to live, but it goes to show you that with a little courage and the willingness to accept change, improving our schools is possible.
The best part of the story is that the principal did it without the help of the Federal govt or Bill Gates or any other outside interference. I’m not a fan of hers for other reasons, but she has to be given her props for having the guts to change the culture of an entire community.
If she can do it there, we can do it here. All we need are some real leaders willing to buck the trend of falling over themselves for the allmighty Federal dollar and really lead.

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@ Fran Millar

what has the legislature being doing to cut its own fat? you have long been quick to look at us, but charity -and fiscal responsibility-begin at home. what has the golden dome crowd done to make itself lean and mean?

you are in a unique position to know just how little educators in Georgia actually make. I’m curious sir if you and your colleagues have been working under frozen wages for the better part of a decade.
we have.

how has the legislature furloughed itself? please sir, provide specifics.

I was -emphasis, was-employed at GPC until the ousted management spent it into oblivion. like 281 other fellows, I lost my job due to massive fiscal mismanagement. had any cuts be made to the massively bloated middle management Dr. Tricoli grew so aggressively, it is very likely far, far, far fewer than 282 people would have been let go. but GPC chose to do what state government does best – sacrifice worker bees to protect the top.

is short, avoid making hard and lasting decisions in favor of politically expedient quick fixes.

by calling on pay cuts for educators you are doing the exact same thing – again. as I mentioned earlier, you KNOW what we make. you know just how far these cuts won’t go, and the problems they WON’T fix.

lead by example-clean up your own house first, then come looking towards us.

while my points are harsh, and my opinions sharp, truth is we are not the enemy. Georgia’s educators are citizens and taxpayers too. we see the same problems you do, and more often than not have similar ideas on how to fix them. how about instead of lecturing at us – try talking to us?
not the Tricolis, the Halls, ect of the world – us. the people actually doing the work.

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@ skipper

money is so not the answer at this point. its changing the culture of spending, nepotism, and cronyism
which has run education into the ground

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More money going to education just means more money going to teachers. They are being fully compensated now, some of us think they are overcompensated. I urge pay cuts for all public employees until this economic crisis has passed.

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A program on PBS-TV, in the last few days, presented research done by a group (I didn’t catch the name of the research group because I only saw the broadcast for a few minutes.) which determined, with great accuracy, which high school students will end up dropping out of school. Those particular students are best identified while they are still in middle school, the research group concluded. The results were obvious but very accurate, said the presenter.

There are three possible indicators of which students will end up being high school drop-outs – any one of which will accurately predict those students who will, subsequently, drop out of high school. Below are the indicators.

The student:

(1) Has failed either an English or mathematics class in middle school.

(2) Has received a failing grade in behavior in any of his/her academic subjects in middle school.

(3) Has attended school less than 80% of the time while in middle school.

A principal, in an interview on this PBS broadcast, spoke enthusiastically regarding the validity of the study, based on her personal experience as a middle school principal who had used the data provided to her so that she was able alter the lives of those particular students.

===================================================

Why cannot public schools be “reformed,” from within, to target these particular students to provide them with special tutorial help in their English and/or mathematics classes while they are in middle school, or to provide them with special individual and/or group counseling regarding interpersonal dynamics to help with their behavior, or to establish mentors for them who will encourage their daily attendance at school?

Committing to such an in-house program in traditional public schools would raise test scores, cut back significantly on high school drop-outs, and produce a higher calibre of student who will graduate from high school, and who will elect either to attend college or to seek employment within the business community immediately after high school?

Why are public charter schools needed to accomplish this kind of improvement, in which this kind of problem can be diagnosed accurately, and effective solutions can prescribed to solve the significant drop-out problem that is so prevalent throughout the nation? Solving this problem would need expertise in the teaching/counseling staff within traditional public schools, as well as sufficient funding for these specific areas of need in these targeted students.

This is one plan for accomplishing school reform within traditional public schools. Reform can happen within traditional public schools if there is school and community commitment to make it happen, and if political ideology does not resist its happening from within.

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Charter Schools are never going to work. That is a fact. Now lets move on to helping our children get a good education and helping Georgia train its future workers.

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All sports should be reduced in stature and any kid that wants to participate should be academically qualified. It’s not happening in the middle schools.

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@ Ron

let it go.
“Jane” is at best a nutcase, most likely a bored 14 year old trying to his/her ya yas

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@skipper and bootney: Sadly, far too few schools or districts will ever see the forest for the trees, so to speak. They’ll never realize that true reform is possible, and cheap, if you take each individual school and make some tough choices to change it. We can rewrite the entire design of schools in this country, turn them all into charters or private schools, and worship at the feet of Bill Gates until we’re blue in the face, and nothing will be 100% effective unless it reforms school by school, community by community, based on need. We’ve allowed and even encouraged far too much decision-making power in layer upon layer of management and are about to give a LOT of control to an appointed commission at the state level that will likely very seriously impact school structure across the state. Politics and the smell of money are the motivators, and no reform model will work in that environment, I’m afraid.

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@Ron F (cc: Blabney Farnsworth):

So as a public school teacher in an average school district you work 180-190 days per year (9 months) while receiving health care coverage for the full 365 days. The total cost of your State Health Benefit Plan is 75% paid for by the taxpayers, and the monthly premium for you (family coverage) is only around $200 if you’re non-smokers. Correct?

And that health coverage is guaranteed renewable after retirement at similarly subsidized rates throughout your lifetime and that of your spouse.

Wonder if any private sector workers can hope to match those heath benefits?

ref: http://www.ajc.com/news/georgia-politics-elections/state-workers-teachers-to-866540.html

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“if you’re old enough, you might remember Ike warned of the military-industrial complex. later, the villain was “big oil”. seems to me both are amateurs compared to big education.”

Not quite that old, but I’ve heard the quote many times. Considering the current climate, I’d have to agree with you. And even with state budget cuts, there’s still a lot of money to be made and plenty lining up for a shot at it.

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@ Maureen

two questions:

1-could you invite Fran to join us in a moderated blog hall meeting? he has much to say about us, perhaps he might be willing to say it to us. some of us are his direct constituents after all. and all of us are potentially affected by his proposals.

2-does the AJC have any records which -if any- of our state/local politicians have accepted donations from anyone with a fiscal axe to grind (book & software publishers, computer vendors, office furniture vendors, ect) in supplying education?

as an aside, I’m very curious if anyone pushing for privatization has received monies or in kind support from companies/individuals who would benefit from privatization?

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“the monthly premium for you (family coverage) is only around $200 if you’re non-smokers. Correct?”

Some years ago it was $200 or so a month. More like $350 now (employee plus children- employee, spouse, and children is higher). And there are companies out there that pay 50% or more of employee insurance costs as an employment benefit. The benefits are offered as incentives and are common in this country. As a self-employed person, you bear the total cost, and I’m sure it’s high. Check the healthcare offered to senators and representatives at the nation level and you’ll see what “free” healthcare looks like. They have a sweetheart deal you or I could never get as middle-class Americans. As I’ve posted to you I’m sure, you’re more than encouraged to come try out the job. The benefits are nice, but it’s a lot harder work than many think. I doubt I could be self-employed and succeed (I’m not business-savvy enough), and I love what I do as a teacher.

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@ Ron,

I’d have loved me some $200 a month for family.
come to think of it, I had that about 15 or so years ago.

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@ Ron,

do you think “Jane” needs a hug?

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did we forget AL?

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I forgot to mention that I happened to see this also.

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bootney: After nearly 25 years with rooms full of teenagers, one naysaying adult isn’t nearly all that hard to deal with in general. Ironically, all the criticism does is make me more determined to teach with passion and dedication. They’ll tear down the public school system and I’ll be shoveling the rubble to make room for the kids I have left and keep on doing the job.

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Our past two Governors with all their advisors and many members of the General Assembly consider themselves experts on education – at least, what is best for you. Rather than demonstrating leadership and taking action – which yes, includes some new money and some restructure (not all some seek but at least some). However, these people want to debate what is best and never compromise. So, we have segments that think money does not matter or charter schools all the way or some other approach. Well, time continues to pass and despite all the political rhetoric, this state is not getting better. Any gains are far exceededy other states. We are dumb, jobless hicks! But hey, our politicians have their power, they have their answers and if they keep debating long enough, they will have been re-elected enough times to be a House Speaker Pro Tem or a Senate Majority Leader or even a President Protem of the Senate. No wonder education has been a 50+ year problem in this state!

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@Jane W. – here ya’ go: http://dch.georgia.gov/00/channel_title/0,2094,31446711_51841234,00.html Information on retirement health care benefits. It’s not quite as rosy as you would like to picture it, but it’s better than nothing.

FWIW, I pay $397 per month for my HRA (medical savings account/insurance). That’s for a family and includes a surcharge for my spouse – because he could be insured by his company we have to pay that.

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@ Blabney Farnsworth: Honestly, we need not know your every waking thought. You could find a second hobby—gardening maybe—and give your keyboard a rest?

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“Today, the state is only footing 38 percent of the education tab in Georgia.”
Someone needs to tell the state of Georgia. If you go to the state’s web site page for practice assessments, one of the questions (https://www.georgiaoas.org/servlet/a2l
Test 141 – problem says:

8. Public Schools in Georgia are funded PRIMARILY by [choices include state funds, local funds, feds, lottery].

The credited answer is state funds.

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@Jane

My family coverage (spouse & children) = $518.91/mo
Where do you get your data?
The inaccuracies you spout are beyond ludicrous, they are comical.
Thank you for the levity you have interjected to this serious discussion.

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Ron F.,

Passion and dedication on the parts of her teachers, administrators and other school staff are two of the non-monetary prerequisites for educational excellence in Georgia.

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@Ron F, 6:49 pm

Good morning, Ron. I want you to know that, essentially, I agree with your post to me, last evening.

You wrote: “(T)he main reason schools can’t be reformed from within lies in the approach we have taken to education for decades. The top-down model, where decisions regarding curricula and programs are made by administrators,etc. at the district level, is the root of the problem.”

School systems must change this top-down approach and implement substantive reform within, so that the ideological agenda of dismantling public schools for corporate control of schools is stopped. Here are some of my thoughts (addressed to you, btw) that explain why this must occur, in greater detail, from my own blog, “Mary Elizabeth Sings,” written within my blog entry entitled, “About Education: Essay # 5, Assessing Teachers and Students” on Februrary 25, 2012:

“Several years ago, when a local school system mandated that all 8th grade students take Algebra for their 8th grade mathematics course (regardless of where each student was individually functioning), I predicted that at least half of those 8th grade students would fail that course, and they did. Many of those 8th grade students were, unintentionally, ’set up’ for failure by an unknowing County Office mandate that was actually intended to increase the standards for all 8th graders. It is unfortunately true that many highly educated educators still do not know these specific instructional truths, because professional educators specialize in various areas of expertise. More value must be placed upon perceptive teachers’ input regarding instruction (such as yours). All educators want students to achieve to their maximum growth each year in every curricululm area, but, to achieve that end, each child MUST be taught where he or she is functioning at point in time, which is referred to as the student’s Instructional Level.”

(My blog entry of January 15, 2012, entitled “About Education: Essay # 1, Mastery Learning” explains each student’s accurate instructional level, as opposed to his or her frustration level, or independent level – whatever his or her grade level – with greater detail.)

Please read my detailed post at 3:41 pm yesterday, on this thread, regarding the interconnection between the U. S. Chamber of Commerce, ALEC, the Georgia Chamber of Commerce, HR 1162 sponsored by Rep. Jan Jones and supported by many other legislators (the amendment to Georgia’s Constitution which would establish public charter schools by state authority outside of local school districts jurisdiction to be voted on this November). There are forces at work in our nation that are intent upon minimizing government, service-oriented jobs for private sector control of these services. I am not pleased with that because I believe that corporations, vital thought they are to business and for jobs in our nation and world, perpetuate a hierarchial view of humanity. I believe that public service jobs, on the other hand, understand more readily an egalitarian view of humanity. My hope is that the world will evolve in a more equitable, egalitarian direction than a hierarchial one in which power and wealth are the primary values, instead of the values of cooperation and spiritual and intellectual development of humanity, which the egalitarian vision understands.

Here are the views of Jay Bookman, which I have excerpted from his July 18, 2012 column in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution entitled, “GOP here looks to match voucher program in La.”:

“When fully implemented, the Louisiana program has the potential to shift well over a billion dollars a year in taxpayer money out of the public system into the hands of private for-profit and non-profit schools. Surely that gives state officials not just the right but the obligation to ensure that the money is well-spent and delivers quality education. But that’s counter to the philosophy driving the school voucher movement.

The program was signed into law by Jindal in April and takes effect immediately. The result has been an educational gold rush. For example, Reuters reports that New Living Word, the school offering the most open slots to voucher students, “has a top-ranked basketball team but no library. Students spend most of the day watching TVs in barebones classrooms. Each lesson consists of an instructional DVD that intersperses Biblical verses with subjects such chemistry or composition.”

I urge readers to read Bookman’s article in full. Here is the link:

http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-blog/2012/07/18/is-louisiana-the-future-of-georgias-education-system/
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I do understand the concern of the parents of students in some of the lower functioning metro school systems, but I am concerned that if an across-the-board voucher program, and subsequent dismantling of traditional public schools, occur through Georgia’s legislative actions, that many of the students who will end up dropping out of schools will be even more adversely effected because not all students can attend public charter schools, and if they could, why not simply reform the traditional schools, from within?

Here are the words of a poster last evening, in this regard:

“Maureen Downey @ 10:59 AM on July 25th, 2012 – you rightly pointed out that those states leading the nation ‘are investing in preschool and teacher quality, raising rigor and adopting and sticking to whole school reform plans.’ ”

Some of the schoolwide instructional innovations which I mentioned in my 3:41 pm post yesterday especially for potential high school drop outs, I was able to see implemented in my own greater Atlanta high school with a 98% African-American population. How was I able to get these programs established in a top-down educational system? I spoke with several principals of that school, one on one, over the years about various programs which would enhance student growth. Those principals were all committed to student improvement. I never had a principal to turn down my innovative ideas. We made them reality, and we helped many students in the process. Reform can be done within traditional public schools but teacher input must be valued, as you say, or we will live to see traditional public schools dismantled in Georgia to serve the business world’s idea of education. You and I both know that that model is not what is needed across-the-board in education for many reasons. We must, instead, reform public education so that it remains a public institution in its humanitarian and egalitarian values and so that it also delivers educational excellence for ALL students.

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Here we go again. Another article linking education excellence to funding.

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@ “Jane”

there is the most amazing thing on your computer. the on/off button.
please feel free to explore it uses.

sadly, since I was recently RIFed from GPC – I lost my gov’t job, does that make your day better?- I have time on my hands. I remain passionate about education, so …..

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“We must, instead, reform public education so that it remains a public institution in its humanitarian and egalitarian values and so that it also delivers educational excellence for ALL students.”

Now is that not a really good socialistic view for all of us to jump on board? Ok I am bored of reading these pedant rants about public education. I need a chart broken down by race, gender, political background, income, religious values etc. I want to see who really is doing well and who is not. You guys are throwing darts not at the dartboard but at the wall.

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@ carlos

you know that how? I worked with serveral DeKalb charter schools and none specialized in bible quotations. zero. most were interested in science and low performing/at risk students.

if you have specifics to back up your claim, please share them

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@ Fran Millar,

I remain puzzled about your approach to Georgia’s budget issues. you seem determined to see teachers wages cut, but as far as I can tell have been publically silent on the issue concerning bloated middle management.

take my former employer GPC for example. a quick look at the GPC 282 (those laid off due to fiscal mismanagement) show lots of worker bees and next to none of the Assistant Directors, Directors, Associate Directors, Vice Presidents, Assistant Vice Presidents, Associate Vice Presidents, ect which exploded under Tricoli.

I may be a poor dumb unemployed educator, but even I can figure out the costs of keeping a classroom support technician are much lower than a Assistant Director.

Can you explain your thinking on this issue sir?

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@Bootney – I think the avoidance is due to now knowing how to address the issues. We can say “Kick ‘em out” but where will they go? Educate them or incarcerate them, those are your options. I agree wholeheartedly that classroom discipline is imperative AND absent in many cases. So, how do we hold parents accountable for their kid’s behavior? We’re always hearing about the teachers’ accountability, but I never hear anyone hold the parents or, heaven forbid, the students accountable for learning. The kids know Mom and Dad will swoop in and argue their way out of any punishment- I saw it happen when I taught and it’s one of the main reasons I don’t want to go back into a classroom. We’ve all said it here- when we were in school, if you got in trouble at school, you got in trouble at home. Now, it’s if you get in trouble at school, your parents will say the teacher picks on you and it’s not your fault. How do we make the parents BE parents?

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bootney – 9:19

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/clashes-over-religion-in-scl

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@ carlosgw, 10:21 am. Just as an FYI–when clicked on, your link goes to: “404–page not found.”

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@ Bootney Farnsworth, et al. Yesterday at 3:54 pm Jane W. stated that he/she is self-employed, in response to my note that he/she’d posted 5 times in yesterday alone. Perhaps this was more accurate than we know, and the postings themselves on education blogs such as “Get Schooled” are his/her source of payment and employment.

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Mary Elizabeth: I’m sure you, like me, have worked for various types of prinicipals and county leaders. As you know, when you have a receptive principal who understands the skills of his teachers, you have the foundation for great change based on student needs. I think those principals are the exception now in many districts such as APS. Having read often on your blog, I too must shake my head as I contemplate what Georgia will do next when so many solutions are so simple and really not that hard to implement. Unfortunately, Louisiana has set the bar for reform and we both know the souther tier of states will all push to do the same, no matter what the data shows. Amazing, isn’t it, how much peer pressure influences even educated adults?

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Ever consider that education in Georgia does work because some people don’t value it at all. Too many people who rather save money on taxes then education disabled and low income students. Well, guess what we have to educate all people, this is not nazi Germany. We value all citizens in the United States. We want all citiizens as independent as possible and educated as much as possible. Parents need to take an active role in their child’s education. Georgia is very capable of educationing all students both gifted and the ones in need of supports. Attitude toward education is the problem here and it’s lack of value. In today’s economy you better have a high school education and then some sort degree. This states’ football over education mentally is creating a food stamp culture.

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Fran?
oh Fran?

not inclined to debate with your constituents?

DeKalb residents, remember this come election time

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@Chip, That rant is quite unbecoming. Angry and bitter is no way to go through life.

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[...] funding formula (which isn’t even fully funded) contributes less and less to our schools. And excellence isn’t even the goal anymore: “We are not going to come up with a formula that reaches for excellence. We are not putting an [...]

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