Great Georgia teachers: Beyond the test scores
In an effort to highlight educational success stories — which people tell me they want — I am sharing a piece by Peter Smagorinsky, a UGA education professor. Smagorinsky hopes to profile great teachers here on the blog now and then. I invite others to contribute essays about remarkable teachers. Send them to me.
By Peter Smagorinsky
Teachers sure are taking a beating these days. Not all teachers, however. If you’re in a private school or charter school, you must be pretty danged good. No, it’s just the teachers with the hardest jobs who get the abuse heaped on them, day after day, by the great and small, named and anonymous: those in regular old public schools.
Teachers are subjected to increasingly urgent calls for accountability, no doubt because those high salaries and other cushy benefits need to be justified in the most rigorous, reliable, and valid of ways. No, make that way, not ways: The only measure of successful teaching these days is their students’ test scores. Everything that teachers do on behalf of kids can easily be boiled down to those scores, regardless of whether or not those kids have fridge full of healthy food or a clean change of clothes at home; or for that matter, a home at all.
Or, maybe teachers can be appreciated for other things that they do. In this series of columns, I’d like to feature teachers I know of who do extraordinary work, often with kids whose life circumstances do not predict college attendance or other arenas where test scores matter to them enough to do their best. What I hope to accomplish is to provide profiles of outstanding teachers without referring to their ability to train students to fill in bubbles on machine-scored answer sheets.
Today I’ll talk about a guy I really like and admire, David Ragsdale of Clarke Central High School in Athens. I first met David when he was working on his master’s degree at UGA and took some classes with me. I was always pleased to find him in my classes because of the ripple effect he had on other students. It’s pretty hard to be in a class with someone of boundless inquisitiveness and vigor, and not get caught up in the momentum yourself. He set a high standard for engagement and participation that inevitably gave the classes vitality and purpose—certainly for me as a teacher, and I believe also for the other students in the class, many of whom, like David, were coming to campus after a demanding and often exhausting day of teaching their own classes in Georgia schools.
David has taken a special interest throughout his teaching and education in the quality of learning experienced by students from low socioeconomic status groups. There are many such students in Athens, which is one of the nation’s poorest counties. David has made the academic success of such young people his mission in life. In a community in which the public schools experience unfortunately high dropout rates, David’s ability to find ways to teach students in meaningful ways is critically important in helping the district meet its goal of serving a broad and diverse population. With his unbridled passion for social justice, David has emerged as the sort of teacher that semi-urban districts such as Athens-Clarke County so desperately need.
At UGA, David was among the founding Fellows in the Red Clay Writing Project, a select group of teachers from North Georgia whose experiences laid the groundwork for the RCWP institutes that followed. RCWP is an affiliate of the National Writing Project, often described as the most important professional development program available to teachers interested in writing instruction.
David quickly took a leadership role in the RCWP, based on the strong impression he made on his university and k-12 colleagues, returning each summer as an institute leader. He is also a valuable recruiter for the RCWP, visiting summer classes to explain to other graduate students the advantages of participation and the processes experienced during the institute. With his tremendous interpersonal skills and infectious enthusiasm, along with his expertise as a teacher of writing, he often impresses a number of students into applying for Fellowships the following summer.
Locally, David has also become a key part of the UGA undergraduate program in English education as a mentor teacher. David’s gifts as a teacher and mentor are well-known throughout the local teaching community; we often hear students in our master’s degree classes refer to him as an exceptional and model instructor. His generous and caring mentorship is most appreciated by our teacher candidates, who are often fragile and require sensitive handling in order to weather the vicissitudes of school life. It’s well known that many teachers leave the profession within their first few years of teaching. Having strong mentorship during student teaching helps early-career teachers develop the resilience that they need to remain in the classroom in spite of the obstacles. David therefore plays a key role in both the careers of teacher candidates, and ultimately in the administration of schools that are able to hire teachers whose abilities and dispositions enable them to thrive as educators.
I have saved his most remarkable achievement for last. David has had astounding success as the faculty adviser to Clarke Central High School’s news magazine, Odyssey, and its literary magazine, Iliad. He has not merely advised these publications, however; he is the founder of both. Amazingly, before David came along, CCHS had allowed its only literary magazine to fall into dormancy, and had never before published a news magazine.
David saw the need for students to take pride in and have outlets for their writing, and so revived the Iliad and launched the Odyssey. Taking this initiative in a school in which student writing was so little appreciated reveals much about David’s spirited optimism and faith in his students in a setting in which many have simply given up on students’ prospects for achievement. Serving as advisor to one or the other of these publications would be an onerous amount of work; founding and advising both while pursuing graduate studies and being a key player in the RCWP is simply remarkable.
Each of these magazines has, under David’s dynamic leadership, risen to national prominence in very short order. The number of awards that these journals annually receive is far too long to list here, but if you’re interested in what Clarke Central students have achieved under his guidance, look here, or here, or here, or here, or in many other places. Or better yet, send him a contribution, because he’s done all this for the most part without a budget, relying instead on the generosity of regular folks to pony up the occasional sawbuck to keep the operation rolling. David has always modestly deferred credit to his student editors, but without a faculty adviser of considerable talent and dedication, students could not prosper in these roles. The remarkable series of accolades that his students’ magazines have accumulated can only be the work of a professional of magnificent devotion and ability, especially given the absence of a tradition of student publications in his school.
What are his students’ test scores? I have no idea, and I don’t care. They cannot begin to take the measure of the man or what he’s done for kids in Athens/Clarke County. David is a great teacher because he does so much more than teach. He works as hard as anyone I know, even spending his summers teaching in the Governor’s Honors Program in Valdosta. David is smart, dynamic, boundlessly determined, and a great asset to every institution he becomes a part of. We need more like him; I can only hope that the current toxic environment that surrounds our public schools does not run off those of similar gifts who might some day join him in the classroom.
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog.
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152 comments Add your comment
Sissy
July 14th, 2012
7:17 am
D*MN GOOD DAWG!
Good Mother
July 14th, 2012
7:50 am
To say that private and charter teachers are not as good as public school teachers and to issue sarcasm in the very first line of this “piece” of writing is to throw all credibility aside and turn off the reader.
This writer isn’t worth reading.
We need authors on this blog to take their roles as writers seriously and not throw up inflammatory, angry, one-sided rants.
Yawn.
South Georgia Retired Educator
July 14th, 2012
8:01 am
Thanks for a candid and refreshing view of outstanding public school teachers. Today, when public schools are so unfairly criticized by many political leaders, we need to highlight teachers who toil to bring out the best in kids. Teaching is a tough job with low pay (no state raise for the past five years), and benefits continue to be cut, but the dedicated ones like David Ragsdale keep their heads up and continue to give their best. Shame on our legislators and Governor for not supporting the institution that shapes the future of our state. These politicians are throwing away the best chance we have to make Georgia great again.
Bertis Downs
July 14th, 2012
8:08 am
What a wonderful write-up both in general on celebrating our “regular old public schools’”successes, which are many and often overlooked, and specifically for highlighting this teacher and outstanding individual David Ragsdale– all I can add is that my own experiences with David have been similarly inspiring. I didn’t know all the earlier life stuff you filled in– but it is not surprising. He is known widely for his stellar work with the Odyssey and The Iliad year after year, but his other attributes are equally or more important in the scheme of things. David has also been honored by the Foundation for Excellence for Public Education in Clarke County, a vital and much-needed organization these day– it identifies and rewards some of the many great teachers in our schools with classroom grants and excellent teacher awards. http://bit.ly/OEDwfz I really appreciate reading this piece by Prof Smagorinsky– the teaching talent in our classrooms is a strength of our schools and a blessing for our kids. And policy-makers need to be mindful of this part of the picture as they legislate– they aren’t showing much sign of that lately. See, e.g.: http://wapo.st/NXB96c
cris
July 14th, 2012
8:51 am
We need authors on this blog to take their roles as writers seriously and not throw up inflammatory, angry, one-sided rants
Guess the same doesn’t apply to comments, eh Good Mommy?
EduKtr
July 14th, 2012
9:11 am
Peter, there are many selfless and hard-working teachers out there and it’s entirely appropriate to talk up what they do, as in any other profession.
But your smugly dismissive reference to achievement testing as “training (students) to fill in bubbles” grates on the nerves of this former K-12 educator. And it surely feeds a wholly unrealistic and even provocative disdain for accountability among your UGA learners.
As an education professor would you really have us believe you don’t care about test scores? Did you for instance pay no attention to them when choosing private schools for your own kids? If I recall correctly, you’ve noted in the past that your children attended “a mixture of private and public” schools (some of which, by the way, must been financially out of reach of kids—and parents—you seem to seek some sort of “social justice” for, if the throw-away reference above wasn’t just a genuflection to political correctness.)
Dr. Craig Spinks/ Georgians for Educational Excellence
July 14th, 2012
9:16 am
Beyond test scores, not without test scores.
Dc
July 14th, 2012
9:21 am
Yeah and we should stop keeping score at high school football games and just grade coaches on their enthusiasm and infectious attitude….. Seriously? I do applaud great teachers but please stop with the “test score improvements dont matter” BS.
Whirled Peas
July 14th, 2012
9:38 am
Teachers and their leftist friends (like Msssss. Downey) absolutely do not want to be graded. They have the American taxpayer by the throat and like it that way.
It is time for vouchers so we can send our kids to good schools. No more government monopoly of our schools.
Julie Walker
July 14th, 2012
9:39 am
Thank you for taking the time to recognize a truly remarkable teacher. David Ragsdale’s commitment to his students, to excellence in journalism and writing, are outstanding. The Odyssey and Iliad deserve the honors and recognition they recieve, and Mr. Ragsdale deserves every good thing written about him. A caring, dedicated teacher who gives so much of his time and his heart is a special find.
Jerry Eads
July 14th, 2012
9:46 am
Actually, gm, what he was saying is that on average (REPEAT: on average) folks in the privates and the charters have gotten the “cherry picks” – kids who are fed and parents who care. They’re on average A LOT easier to work with in a classroom that someone who is lead poisoned from the paint or plumbing in an old shack or has rarely had a regular meal with anyone, much less a family.
THAT said, yup, afraid so: the better publics knock the socks off the privates. While granted anecdotal, I’ve heard only too many stories of kids tranferring to public high schools from privates who are a year AND EVEN TWO behind their peers who have had the luxury of having come through a public system. The most expensive and exclusive of the privates probably can afford very good teachers. They may well be on par with the best of the publics – but they get to pick and choose, while the publics still must take everyone.
dc: Test scores on decent tests might matter. Changes in pass rates on state minimum competency tests tell us absolutely nothing except that a few more or less 5th and 10th percentile kids passed a simple easy test that any average kid can pass in his sleep.
Good Mother
July 14th, 2012
9:59 am
Jerry Eads, If you want to talk about averages. On average, private school teachers get paid less and have less benefits.
…but here is my point.
What I get tired of is the constant bickering and complaining by public school teachers that private and charter schools have it so much easier and their work is so much better…
If that were really true, public school teachers would leave public schools and teach in private and charter schools but they don’t because…the pay and benefits of teaching in a public school are much, much better.
It’s a choice.
Teachers are free to make their own choices including NOT being a teacher at all. It might be a calling…it certainloy isn’t a life sentence.
If I had my way, the Get Schooled Blog would be a place for teachers and parents to share ideas for strategies for doing things more effectively, for sharing success stories, for mentoring one another, for helping one another.
Instead, most often the Get Schoold blog and its posters do the following five things on a routine basis:
1. Complain ad nauseum.
2. Blame everyone else.
3. Bicker and aruge with one another.
Just think what an impression taht makes on the people who pay them. Just think how it feels to have a so-called teacher (Bootney Farnsworth) call our children sociopaths. Imagine. Sociopaths.
That’s abusive.
Teachers complain they don’t get respect.
Respect is earned. It is not passed out fylers on your windshield in the super market parking lot.
When so-called teachers like Bootney Farnsworth call our children lazy sociopaths…
They get the amount of respect they DESERVE.
Good Mother
July 14th, 2012
10:03 am
yeah, I know I said five things and listed three.
The other two are…
4. Ridicule their leaders.
5. Run around like a little silly chicken claiming the sky is falling “teacheres will quit in masses…”
How about a blog with a topic that says here is the challenge of teh day and feature a teacher or parent that has a strategy for handling it. Have at least one productive blog a week. Is that too far a stretch?
Solutions
July 14th, 2012
10:18 am
Clearly written by a professor of education!
Dekalb Parent & GT Prof
July 14th, 2012
10:23 am
It’s sad that a story about a hard-working, dedicated, inspiring public school teacher brings out negative comments. Perhaps Good Mother, having invested dearly to send her kids to private school, can’t tolerate the thought that public schools have many good, or even great, teachers?
Solutions
July 14th, 2012
10:26 am
I believe Wheeler High School has a similar in-school magazine, or at least they did a few years ago.
Solutions
July 14th, 2012
10:28 am
I am pretty sure Marist outscores almost all Georgia High Schools on the SAT, as do several of the other large private schools in the same league as Marist.
carlosgvv
July 14th, 2012
10:30 am
I remember hearing, years ago, an old saying – “those that can, can. Those that can’t, teach”.
With school rooms becoming a more and more hostile place, the not too distant classrooms of the future will be filled with tough, mean teachers whose only qualification is being able(barely) to teach.
Solutions
July 14th, 2012
10:40 am
carlosgvv – Given the damage done to the jobs market, I suspect teaching jobs will become increasingly attractive to people. The Washington Post had a good article last week or so about the lack of jobs for people with a PhD in the sciences, from chemistry to biology. The only bright spots were in Engineering and Physics, in all other areas recent PhD’s were stuck in post docs at 30K a year or working outside their field. In the liberal arts, PhD’s have traditionally had great difficulty in the jobs market, but this recent collapse in the science market for PhD’s is very troubling. In part the collapse is due to the American pharmaceutical companies closing their research labs, as a consequence of changes in tax law (the loss of some research tax credits). The green shade guys have decided it is cheaper to just buy the new drugs produced by small independent labs than to fund large in house research programs. The USA is starting to look much like the rest of the world, with a surplus of useless, but highly educated people. We are producing something like 45,000 new lawyers a year, with job openings in the legal field of only 10,000 or so.
NWGA Teacher
July 14th, 2012
10:47 am
Thank you for the profile of a great public school teacher.
Bye-bye
July 14th, 2012
10:47 am
@carlos:
No, I suspect that those who fill the K-12 teaching positions of the future will continue to resemble the ones meant to be lauded above (if one ignores the accompanying rhetoric). And all schools, public and private, will no doubt benefit.
Their self-pitying compatriots, meanwhile, will have been moved on to more appropriate employment somewhere far, far from children—or equally as likely, no employment whatever.
Bye-bye
July 14th, 2012
11:02 am
And I’ve always wondered … if “teaching to the test” is, as implied, such a trivial and easy thing to do—why are so very many of our public school teachers such spectacular failures at doing so?
Dramatically better test scores would instantly disarm critics. And yet, years … decades! … later test scores show scant improvement.
With all the money spent on public K-12 education—why?
Clarke Central’s ‘Odyssey’ and Its Advisor David Ragsale Are Both First Rate
July 14th, 2012
11:03 am
[...] In an opinion piece in the Atlanta Journal Constitution, UGA education professor Peter Samogrinsky talks about what makes Ragsdale such a great teacher and community asset. He was Ragsdale teacher in graduate school, and he celebrates his student’s success in the classroom. [...]
@solutions
July 14th, 2012
11:09 am
keep in mind, that many Marist parents can afford outside tutoring for SAT prep. And choose to do so for their students. Not slamming on Marist at all, but as one of those tutors, it is a reality.
Mary Elizabeth
July 14th, 2012
11:13 am
“I can only hope that the current toxic environment that surrounds our public schools does not run off those of similar gifts who might some day join him in the classroom.”
————————————————————————-
As aware citizens, we need to do more than “hope.” We need to recognize, and state, the sources of the “current toxic environment that surrounds our public schools.” One of those sources is ALEC, the American Legislative Exchange Council. That organization has tentacles into Georgia’s Legislature. Some of ALEC’s members in Georgia’s Legislature have sponsored bills which would help to dismantle Georgia’s public schools.
@carlosgv
July 14th, 2012
11:15 am
when I read comments that contain the words “teachers union in ga” or “those who can, do; those who can’t teach”, I see that person’s credibility drop like a lead balloon. And promptly move on. Can we stop these phrases and have a serious, informed blog for once?
Google "NEA" and "union"
July 14th, 2012
11:31 am
Mary Elizabeth, please don’t risk the fate of @carlos leaving your comments unread … by including partisan clap-trap about the “tentacles” of ALEC and other silly imaginings.
And for God’s sake—don’t get going on “Thomas Jefferson” again!
Truth in Moderation
July 14th, 2012
11:37 am
Bragging rights….
One of mine was
K- home schooled
1st -4th – small private Christian school ($1500/yr)
5th-8th -home schooled ($1000/yr)
Speaking of the Odyssey, as a culmination of our chronological study of the history and literature of the ancient world, we took a 2 week cruise of the Eastern Mediterranean and visited the lands of Homer and the Apostle Paul: Greece and the islands, Crete, Egypt, and Turkey.
For our Earth Science field trip, we visited Hawaii so we could see a volcano first hand, and even drove to the top! We also visited an amazing aquarium and snorkeled so we could see beautiful fish in their natural habitat.
9th-10th- Top STEM charter school (public) $$8,000+/yr
This child has maintained a 4.0+ GPA, has held many leadership positions including robotics team.
Nominated for Governor’s Honor’s in Physics (by a Star Teacher) and Engineering (Sophomore yr.)
Scored 700 on SAT Math (Sophomore yr.)
Scored 5 on AP World History, AP Chemistry, and BC Calculus (Sophomore yr.)
Also, this child has Aspergers Syndrome (Autism)
The teachers at his STEM Charter have been wonderful in helping him to achieve his dream of attending a top engineering school!
Solutions
July 14th, 2012
11:41 am
@solutions – According to the people who produce the SAT, tutoring can have only a minimal benefit at most, maybe 30 points on average. One cannot credit tutoring with superior SAT performance by private school students.
I love teaching. I hate what it is becoming...
July 14th, 2012
11:48 am
David Ragsdale, it sounds like Clarek Central High is lucky to have you!
After reading many of these comments I have come to the conclusion that some people simply do not want any type of traditional public education – regardless of how good the schools and teachers may be. Here we have an article about a supurb public school educator, and rather than being pleased that there are great teachers in the public sector, we still have the same folks “whining” about their personal talking points. So, depsite their claims that they want good teachers and good public schools, I have decided they really don’t support either one. They want public schools gone – period. Which leave me wondering, who butters their bread?
Solutions
July 14th, 2012
11:53 am
Here is a link on SAT tutoring that confirms my 30 point at most gain allegation: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124278685697537839.html
Digger
July 14th, 2012
12:06 pm
Written by a guy hoping to keep the steady flow of masters students/sheep filing into his class to shoot the bull for an hour and get an A. I wonder, has a student ever gotten a B in your class? Ever?
Mary Elizabeth
July 14th, 2012
12:26 pm
@Google “NEA” and “union,” 11:31 am
“Mary Elizabeth, please don’t risk the fate of @carlos leaving your comments unread … by including partisan clap-trap about the ‘tentacles’ of ALEC and other silly imaginings.
And for God’s sake—don’t get going on ‘Thomas Jefferson’ again.”
===================================================
You are the type of person who needs to be reading my posts, and I hope that you will continue to do so. There is nothing “silly” about ALEC’s having tentacles into Georgia’s Legislature. That is quite real.
BTW, I have posted recently in The New York Times in which I mentioned both ALEC and Thomas Jefferson. Over 700 posts were recorded on that thread. My post was recommended by over 100 people across the nation, which placed my post, in the NY Times, in the top 8% of those posts that were valued enough by readers that they recommended that others also read my post.
In my opinion, you need to broaden your horizons, as well as your mind. Wake up and see how stealthy politics in Georgia is effecting your life. And, Jefferson would never have supported an American vision in which the wealthy/power elite have a greater voice in the direction that this nation take than voices of the majority of Americans. In other words, Jefferson supported a nation of, by, and for the people. That fact cannot be emphasized enough. Thank God for Thomas Jefferson’s mind – which was not a petty one, I might add. You could well learn from him.
Prof
July 14th, 2012
12:29 pm
@ Mary Elizabeth.
Thomas Jefferson, and the other American Founding Fathers, are not the sole property of the Tea Party and arch-conservatives such as “Google ‘NEA’ and ‘union.’” Remind us of what this third President, Deist, and genius would say today as much as you want.
And, considering the source, this appraisal of your 11:13 am post– “partisan clap-trap about the “tentacles” of ALEC and other silly imaginings”– should be taken as a compliment. The hit dog squeals.
Bertis Downs
July 14th, 2012
12:54 pm
Mary Elizabeth– well-said.
This also has some good info:
http://mediamatters.org/research/201205090007
The guy who started Media Matters, David Brock, was a Bush (41) staffer who realized he was working for the wrong side. Now he just focuses on calling them out with like, you know, facts.
Google "NEA" and "union"
July 14th, 2012
12:56 pm
Mary Elizabeth, please don’t risk the fate of @carlos leaving your comments unread … by including partisan clap-trap about the “tentacles” of ALEC and other silly imaginings.
Mary Elizabeth
July 14th, 2012
1:01 pm
@Prof, 12:29
Thank you for your words of support at 12:29 pm, Prof.
One of the reasons I mention Jefferson often is that I neither want this country’s arch-conservatives to hi-jack this nation’s original tenets and claim them as exclusively their own, or to claim, as exclusively their own, the thinking of our Founding Fathers. And, Jefferson, as even his compatriots acknowledged in that day, exemplified the highest order of the thinking of our Founding Fathers. Silence is admittance that what today’s arch-conservatives assert is correct regarding this. They do not “own” our Constitution, the thoughts of our Founding Fathers, or the thinking of Jefferson, himself. Again, in my opinion, Jefferson would be appalled at the direction today’s conservatives are taking our nation, with its emphasis on a monied, powerful elite ruling the masses – and for their own petty, monied self-interests, and not for the interests of the common welfare of the people, as a whole.
But, why not let Jefferson speak for himself? Here are the words of Thomas Jefferson, from page 171 of the Pulitzer Prize winning book that I am currently reading, entitled, “Washington: A Life,” by Ron Chernow, published by Penguin Books in 2010:
“Jefferson ended with a dire warning for George III: ‘Kings are the servants, not the proprietors of the people. Open your breast, Sire, to liberal and expanded thought. Let not the name of George the Third be a blot in the page of history.’ “
Google "NEA" and "union"
July 14th, 2012
1:02 pm
… And don’t be too quick to accept accolades of fellow union-istas as sincere!
Dr. Monica Henson
July 14th, 2012
1:09 pm
Clearly, David Ragsdale is a passionate and committed teacher. I enjoyed very much reading about his work and no doubt he has had a profound influence on many students’ lives. He is the kind of teacher I recruit. However, if Mr. Ragsdale were to apply for employment at my virtual charter high school, which includes a statewide online student body along with brick-and-mortar urban centers devoted to aggressive recruitment of dropouts and other high-risk kids to study in person with the staff, I would take a long, hard look at his students’ state exam results over time. I’d also want to know if he has substantial experience working with the neediest students at Clarke Central HS, or if most of his work has been done with honors & AP kids. The best teachers are able to reach across the spectrum from high to low ability and skill levels and engage, motivate, and inspire all types of students, not just the easiest-to-teach ones.
As great as they make one’s resume look, it’s not enough to be passionate and committed and sponsor publications and participate in all sorts of professional development activities. For decades, most teacher professional growth plans in this country have allowed teachers to list courses they will take and PD activities they will engage in, without being required to demonstrate any connection to how those things will help their students attain proficiency. I have dealt with several teachers over the years who scurry and flurry with all sorts of extracurricular sponsorships, grad school courses, etc., yet who bore the living daylights out of their students and don’t challenge them.
I am not in any way attributing this type of behavior to Mr. Ragsdale, simply making a point in order to counter Dr. Smagorinsky’s assertion that student achievement outcomes on objective measures don’t matter. This is a typical position taken by those in the schools of education, who don’t want to be held accountable for the quality of their graduates by linking whether the kids they go on to teach in K-12 can read, write, and calculate at a minimum proficiency level. The schools of education have joined with the NEA and the AFT in opposing accountability systems that link student achievement outcomes in any fashion with teacher evaluation or with federal funding of schools of education.
A teacher must be able to help students demonstrate that they can meet proficiency standards, or s/he isn’t worth the paper on which his/her college diploma is printed, nor are all the activities in the world worth the time spent on them. What if Dr. Smagorinsky made the comment about an Advanced Placement teacher that it doesn’t matter what the students’ AP exam scores were? Students who sign up for AP courses are doing so in order to try to earn college credits, which are based on the AP test scores. If a teacher cannot help students produce high AP test scores, then that teacher won’t last very long in the AP program. Parents will demand that a competent AP teacher be put in place.
The schools of education in this country have got to stop fighting against accountability measures and recognize that all students deserve to be provided instruction that enables them to function in the job market and higher education. The accountability systems that have come into being on the K-12 level, while varying widely in quality, are an effort imposed on the public education system from the outside due to the failure of the system to ensure quality control.
I successfully signed on three powerhouse teachers as the nucleus around which we are building the Provost Academy Georgia faculty: all longtime public high school teachers who have worked for me at the high school level previously, three master’s degrees, two reading endorsements, two National Board Certificates, and one Teacher of the Year award among the three of them. Two are relocating to Atlanta from out of state. All have spent many years leading extracurricular activities and engaging in high-quality professional development. Most importantly, all have proved over time that they can help students at high risk achieve proficiency on the exams in their states (Massachusetts, Connecticut, North Carolina, and Georgia).
I have the luxury of building a high school faculty from scratch, without inheriting previous administrators’ problem employees. That will make my job a lot easier starting out. We have several high-achieving kids who are enrolling in the school, with motivated parents who give them every advantage. However, we are actively and aggressively reaching out to the dropout population in Georgia, which is estimated conservatively at 60,000 students who have not yet “aged out” of eligibility for public schooling. My teachers have to be able to teach at both ends of the ability and skill spectrum, and everything in between. Many of their students will be “in the cloud,” but a substantial number of them will be working with them in person at the Magic Johnson Bridgescape Academy centers we are setting up in Atlanta, Macon, Augusta, and Savannah. Those kids will likely be overaged for their grade and undercredited. They won’t have the luxury of time. I simply refuse to give those kids anything less than the absolute best in terms of quality teachers.
I’d love to add more teachers like David Ragsdale to my faculty–but ONLY if they have a proven track record of producing high student achievement among the students most at-risk. That is the truest measure of an accomplished teacher.
Mary Elizabeth
July 14th, 2012
1:18 pm
Bertis Downs, 12:54 pm
Thank you for your remarks and for your well-informed link regarding how ALEC is effecting Georgia’s legislation. I hope readers will read your link in full. The link states that Rep. Jan Jones – who sponsored HR 1162, the state-created charter schools’ bill (that now will be voted on in November as an amendment to Georgia’s Constitution) – is a member of ALEC’s Education Task Force.
I want to highlight the following words from your link. Thank you again.
“Georgia media have been silent as members of ALEC in Georgia’s legislature have successfully pushed through a version of ALEC’s Charter Schools Act, which would create a state-controlled board with the power to establish and fund charter schools over local opposition. A Media Matters analysis found that while Georgia media have frequently written about the bills, they have completely overlooked ALEC’s influence in the debate.”
Lee
July 14th, 2012
1:23 pm
For those of you who do not like negative comments, may I remind you that the author initiated this with his snarky comments about private school teachers and how public school teachers have “the hardest jobs” as compared to the privates.
Take out that first paragraph and this is a good read.
————————————–
If folks like Smagorinsky are tired of public school teachers being under the microscope, might I suggest these same public schools not pass students from grade to grade who cannot do the work and “graduate” students who are performing on a fourth grade level.
Solutions
July 14th, 2012
1:40 pm
Dr. Monica Henson – I know the education establishment gets more credit for the slightest accomplishment of the neediest and slowest kids, but in a larger sense, they mean little to nothing. It is the AP and Honors kids who will collectively go on to lead the nation commercially, scientifically, and politically. Concentrate on educating them, let the others fall by the wayside, it is the way of the world.
Google "NEA" and "donations"
July 14th, 2012
1:48 pm
Yes, @Lee, it has been challenging for those on the political left—to see represented on issue blogs those who provide state Republicans with their victory margins.
I’d guess a consolation is that the liberal AJC remains—for now, at least—economically viable. And that GAE/NEA continues able to bankroll the Democrat Party and other liberal-left groups.
Mary Elizabeth
July 14th, 2012
1:51 pm
Lee, 1:23 pm
It is my hope that you, and other readers, will become more informed as to why all students are not functioning on grade level, within every grade, in public education. This phenomenon does not begin in the first grade or even in kindergarten. It starts at birth. Some of the issues that could help to minimize this problem need societal changes, as well as educational adjustments. Perhaps, my link below can help in informing with more depth of understanding. (Please read, also, the link provided, within this link.)
http://maryelizabethsings.wordpress.com/2012/02/25/about-education-essay-5-assessing-teachers-and-students/
Prof
July 14th, 2012
1:55 pm
@ Lee, 1:23 pm: “If folks like Smagorinsky are tired of public school teachers being under the microscope, might I suggest these same public schools not pass students from grade to grade who cannot do the work and “graduate” students who are performing on a fourth grade level.”
And just how is this the fault of public schools when the state of Georgia mandates “social promotion” by law?
living in an outdated ed system
July 14th, 2012
2:00 pm
This writer’s posts are better posted on Diane Ravitch’s blog. I agree wholeheartedly with some of the comments here that address the partisan comments the writer inserted into the letter. If he would have just talked about the teacher’s story, it may have merit. But he tainted it with his other nonsensical remarks.
There are certainly great teachers out there, and it is a shame that all parties can’t come to some level of consensus on what constitutes an “effective” teacher. Test scores should only be a part of the equation, not the vast majority of the equation. Unfortunately, we have gotten away from the core issues, which has to do with tenure and “last in, first out.” Professional development and compensation are also critical elements of this.
Has anyone ever looked at Singapore? They only have the finest teacher training program IN THE WORLD! There is no shame in looking at how other countries do certain things well, but we are too afraid to acknowledge we don’t have all the answers and that maybe we should replicate and re-purpose practices that are working elsewhere.
Mary Elizabeth
July 14th, 2012
2:06 pm
“It is the AP and Honors kids who will collectively go on to lead the nation commercially, scientifically, and politically. Concentrate on educating them, let the others fall by the wayside, it is the way of the world.”
=========================================================
This type of hierarchial thinking is the antithesis of the ideas upon which America was founded. America was founded upon an egalitarian vision of humankind. That is why Jefferson supported public education.
Proud Teacher
July 14th, 2012
2:18 pm
This policy of passing students without appropriate academic achievements is rampant all over Georgia. It’s not prudent to make the administration look bad. Much of it is done subversively by putting pressure on teachers to conform while making the teachers most uncomfortable in their schools. The numbers must add up to everyone looking good in the press and on paper to those who monitor education but never have taught. Nothing is ever on paper so it can’t be proven but those of us who have suffered this know what is really going on. And who loses in the end? The students. Again.
Dr. Craig Spinks/ Georgians for Educational Excellence
July 14th, 2012
2:22 pm
DeTocqueville warned of the rise of an American mediocracy. I sometimes wonder if it has already made its appearance in GAPubEd. Of course, I am neither saying nor implying that among my colleagues there aren’t many, many able folks. But I am saying that rather than having been led by “the best and the brightest,” we have been led all-too-frequently on the local and state levels by “the mediocre and the dim.”*
* “Dim” would be operationally defined in terms of standardized test scores no higher than 1 SD
above the mean.
EduKtr
July 14th, 2012
2:33 pm
@MaryLiz:
Thomas Jefferson supported education of the public—not the “public education” of today’s usage. Private schools supported by taxpayer funded tuition vouchers and charters would qualify.
He was also a slave owner, which clearly defines limits he placed on egalitarianism. Nor do I recall him championing the cause of women’s suffrage.
But perhaps you have a different Thomas Jefferson in mind?
bootney farnsworth
July 14th, 2012
2:42 pm
@ Dr. Craig
we’re already there.
education is mostly led by people who have no business running a burger king, much less a school. the rules established by wonks with no clue, and no interest outside of schools being a vehicle for football.
Solutions
July 14th, 2012
2:46 pm
When talking of the founding fathers, remember that they had all read the same 50 books, had the same education. Why? Because there were far fewer books to read in those days, and the 50 they had in common were widely accepted as being the best. Other than the bible, I doubt many Americans have read even one of those 50 books. Having those 50 books in common made it easier to cut through the clutter and self interests of the few to reach valid conclusions. It does not mean the founding fathers were smarter than we are, or more wise. Statistically, we have far more people in America today with higher IQ’s than the founding fathers. We just have more clutter, and misuse of Tommy J’s writings.
Dr. Monica Henson
July 14th, 2012
2:55 pm
Solutions posted, “…the neediest and slowest kids…in a larger sense…mean little to nothing. It is the AP and Honors kids who will collectively go on to lead the nation commercially, scientifically, and politically. Concentrate on educating them, let the others fall by the wayside, it is the way of the world.”
I understand the “big picture” sense that you reference in terms of focusing the most resources on those most likely to produce the most progress, although I disagree almost to the point of violence with the sentiment. However, if one accepts your premise, what about the cost to society in social services and human misery by allowing students who don’t fit into the high-achieving category to fall by the wayside?
If we don’t educate them effectively in their youth, they become at serious risk of dropping out, which renders them highly likely go on to spend their adulthood in prisons, on public assistance, and otherwise creating economic and other costs that society must pay. It costs less than $10,000 a year to provide a public education to a K-12 student, but it costs more than $25,000 a year to incarcerate an inmate. What we have to start doing is ensure a strong return on that $10,000 a year K-12 investment by providing all students with excellent, effective teaching and positive adult connections in the school experience. By using blended learning models, we can do that for a lot less than $10,000 per student per year, AND we can ensure for the neediest kids that face-to-face connection with caring adults who are highly skilled in teaching hard-to-reach students.
Solutions
July 14th, 2012
3:10 pm
Dr. Monica Henson – We are not educating them now, we are just tilting the whole education system in the direction of making it appear we are doing so. The decline in educational achievement has been at the top, not the bottom. The bottom has held its own, or improved in some small ways. The top has declined noticeable. Small efforts at the top can produce large results, large efforts on the bottom produce small results. I do not propose denying the bottom and education, I merely propose we stop emphasizing the achievement of the bottom to the detriment of achievement at the top of the IQ spectrum. Colleges are already sorting student enrollment based on IQ, as the SAT is a type of IQ test. When we dumb down all school books to no more than a 4th grade reading level, we have cheated the best and the brightest out of a challenging education, and we will pay for it in the decades ahead.
Bertis Downs
July 14th, 2012
3:26 pm
One of the things that made Professor Smagorinsky’s initial profile of David Ragsdale so worthwhile is the chance to look, as the title suggests “beyond the test scores” to gain insight into what educational experiences in our state’s “regular old public schools” thanks to dedicated educators like Mr Ragsdale (whom I know and have a child learning from, so I realize that is a lucky unfair advantage)(but there are a lot of David Ragsdales in lots of schools throughout our state).
Another point bearing on some of the discussion in the Comments– the advantages obtained by all kids, whatever their background, in diverse and integrated schools, like Clarke Central where Ragsdale teaches. A recent Florida Law Review article explores this and is worth reading– an abstract is here and the whole thing can be downloaded here too:
http://works.bepress.com/robert_garda/1/
Professor Garda visited Athens and presented his paper which can be viewed here:
bit.ly/Nt28K7
Bye-bye
July 14th, 2012
3:28 pm
Along with my earlier question (above) on the “teaching to the test” canard … I’d also pose to those self-pitying teachers reading this blog: Why is it that some are able to overcome all the obstacles you cite (i.e.,”whether or not those kids have fridge full of healthy food or a clean change of clothes at home; or for that matter, a home at all” etc.) and SUCCEED at achieving objectively quantifiable results with their K-12 pupils?
Next question: Given that the population of qualified applicants for most teaching posts FAR, FAR exceeds the number of available positions … why do we grant tenure? Why not dismiss those teachers who consistently fail to excel?
Do we not have a public school results crisis on our hands? Does our economic security as a nation not depend on finding solutions beyond education establishment double-talk?
Dr. Monica Henson
July 14th, 2012
3:29 pm
Solutions, thanks for clarifying your position. I share your concern that the most capable students are not being provided with the challenging education that they need and deserve. That’s one of the reasons that I have become involved with virtual education–I believe that leveraging technology, blending learning opportunities, flipping classrooms, and other innovations can catapult public education into what it needs to be: a menu of wide-ranging options from which students can choose. I don’t favor abolishing or privatizing public education, nor do I think that technology can out-teach an accomplished teacher. But I do think that public schools in general haven’t even scratched the surface of what can be done to personalize learning for kids in dramatic ways.
Solutions
July 14th, 2012
3:34 pm
Dr. Monica Henson – Then we are in agreement!
Truth in Moderation
July 14th, 2012
3:41 pm
“I’d love to add more teachers like David Ragsdale to my faculty–but ONLY if they have a proven track record of producing high student achievement among the students most at-risk. That is the truest measure of an accomplished teacher.”
THANK YOU! Dr. Henson.
As a home school mom, I would like to take some of the credit for my “at-risk” (Aspergers Syndrome/autism) child’s AMAZING accomplishments. Many of his private and charter school teachers deserve credit as well:
Bragging rights….
One of mine was
K- home schooled
1st -4th – small private Christian school ($1500/yr)
5th-8th -home schooled ($1000/yr)
Speaking of the Odyssey, as a culmination of our chronological study of the history and literature of the ancient world, we took a 2 week cruise of the Eastern Mediterranean and visited the lands of Homer and the Apostle Paul: Greece and the islands, Crete, Egypt, and Turkey.
For our Earth Science field trip, we visited Hawaii so we could see a volcano first hand, and even drove to the top! We also visited an amazing aquarium and snorkeled so we could see beautiful fish in their natural habitat.
9th-10th- Top STEM charter school (public) $$8,000+/yr
This child has maintained a 4.0+ GPA, has held many leadership positions including robotics team.
Nominated for Governor’s Honor’s in Physics (by a Star Teacher) and Engineering (Sophomore yr.)
Scored 700 on SAT Math (Sophomore yr.)
Scored 5 on AP World History, AP Chemistry, and BC Calculus (Sophomore yr.)
Also, this child has Aspergers Syndrome (Autism)
The teachers at his STEM Charter have been wonderful in helping him to achieve his dream of attending a top engineering school!
Dr. Monica Henson
July 14th, 2012
3:43 pm
Bye-bye posted, “And I’ve always wondered … if ‘teaching to the test’ is, as implied, such a trivial and easy thing to do—why are so very many of our public school teachers such spectacular failures at doing so?”
Accomplished teachers who work in classrooms with hard-to-teach students and consistently help them to achieve proficient and advanced test scores (without cheating) are not “teaching to the tests”–they are teaching to the STANDARDS in research-based ways, using techniques and strategies that are ordinarily reserved for gifted and advanced students. This approach is profoundly different from the tired old kill-and-drill test prep methods that is forced in many schools by administrators who think there’s a quick-fix solution to the complex challenges presented by high-poverty students.
It takes a strong, capable, knowledgeable teacher to accomplish this, and to achieve maximum effectiveness, that teacher must be supported by an equally strong, capable, knowledgeable administrator. Getting a whole lot of both of these types of professionals in a high-need school is really tough to do. History shows that most teachers gravitate toward schools with strong administrators, and those tend to be concentrated in the “better” schools.
Even if a superintendent is able to persuade a great administrator to take on the challenge of a “bad” school, that principal then inherits all of the problem employees (not just teachers) that have held on like barnacles to a sinking ship over the years. These people are highly resistant to positive change and are extremely invested in maintaining the status quo. Very, very few principals are able to build a faculty from scratch, and tenured veterans know that they can outlast any maverick, reform-minded principal. More than 95% of teachers eligible for tenure in this country are awarded it, regardless of how effective their teaching is. Once they get it, they are employed for life for all practical purposes.
Mary Elizabeth
July 14th, 2012
3:53 pm
EduKtr, 2:33 pm
You appear to understand Jefferson’s mind only on a very surface level, in a stereotypical way, without depth. I would encourage you to read Saul K. Padover’s book entitled, “Jefferson” for deeper enlightenment regarding Jefferson’s thinking. Jefferson supported public education, paid for by public taxes so that the entire populace could be educated and made aware of the machinations that the upper, wealthy elite might use to manipulate the uneducated masses to their ends. He did not support a government of the upper elite ruling over the masses for their own self-serving ends. He believed that the general public should not only be made aware of, but become part of, the political process of service and responsibility to community by becoming educated through public education.
Those who support private schools through public vouchers are supported, among others, by ALEC, which supports the interests of the upper wealthy elite of today’s world – the owners of corporations that exist for a profit motive for the welfare of the upper, wealthy elite, such as the Koch Brothers, who support ALEC and private education. Jefferson would not be standing with these ideologues who support their own monied self-interests. He would be against their vision and their use of America for their monetary self-interests. In his day, Jefferson would not take inappropriate money for his service to the government. While he was in France and England, serving America’s interests, he paid his own way, essentially. This was part of the reason he died with little financial assets. He used his own money in the service of his country, without looking for personal monetary gain in doing so.
Jefferson was a slave owner who stated that African-American were the equal of white Americans and that it was only the ill effects of their slave circumstances that made them appear less “equal.” He acknowledged that slavery was wrong and he predicted (when he was elderly), that within 50 years, slaves would be made free in America (which they were through the Civil War). His mind understood historical processes, and he saw himself not only as a product of his immediate locale and era in history, but also as a visionary of the future. His vision was that of unqualilfied egalitarianism. But, I hope that you will do the reading that I suggested, expand your awareness of Jefferson’s mind beyond surface generalities, and better learn how he (and others) think, in depth.
Saul K. Padover was the author of thirty books, six on Jefferson, that have been translated into two dozen languages. He received a doctorate degree in history from the University of Chicago. He was the Assistant Secretary of the Interior under Harold Ickes from 1939 – 1943, at which time he joined the OSS and took part in the Normandy Campaign. He was a Professor of History at the University of California and at the New School for Social Research in New York City.
This is what Jefferson said, from his writings on an educated democracy, from his “Notes on Virginia” (from Padover’s book “Jefferson,” page 109).
“In every government on earth is some trace of human weakness, some germ of corruption and degeneracy, which cunning will discover, and wickedness insensibly open, cultivate and improve. Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves therefore are its only safe depositories. And to render even them safe, their minds must be improved to a certain degree. . . . And amendment of our constitution (in Virginia) must here come in aid of public education. The influence over government must be shared among all people. If every individual. . . .participates of the ultimate authority, the government will be safe.”
And on page 109 that same Padover book are these words of Thomas Jefferson,
“On the horrors and evils of slavery”:
“And with what execrations should the statesman be loaded, who permitting one half the citizens thus to trample on the rights of the others, transforms those into desposts, and these into enemies, destroys the morals of the one part, and the amor patriae of the other. For if a slave can have a country in this world, it must be any other in preference to that in which he is born to live and labour for another. . .”
Jefferson’s slaves had great affection for him. He would not sell his slaves, even when it was not financially sound for him to keep them, to other slave owners who might have been cruel to them, nor did he want to break up slave families, who depended on him for survival in that day. Jefferson was no saint, of course, and he had weaknesses as we all do, but he was a thorough egalitarian who once had reprimanded his grandson for not greeting a slave with the same courtesy that the slave had greeted both Jefferson and his grandson, and in the same manner in which Jefferson had returned the slave’s greeting, in kind.
Dr. Monica Henson
July 14th, 2012
3:53 pm
In response to Bye-bye’s question, “Given that the population of qualified applicants for most teaching posts FAR, FAR exceeds the number of available positions … why do we grant tenure?”–the simple answer is, for at least the past 30 years, tenure has pretty much been granted “by default.” And the reason why that happened is because most “old school” administrators did not put teacher supervision, instructional leadership, and effective evaluation on the front burner.
It is a demonstrated fact in K-12 that what gets evaluated gets paid attention, and most superintendents historically have not evaluated principals on how well they lead instruction and implement best practices in supervision & evaluation of teachers. To be fair, most boards of education have not evaluated superintendents on how well they evaluated principals on evaluating teachers. I have drastically oversimplified the issue, but I hope this gives you something of an answer to your question.
EduKtr
July 14th, 2012
4:20 pm
Mary Elizabeth, do you never tire of condescension and your laughably faulty erudition on the subject of Thomas Jefferson?
The man spoke great truths in his lifetime: too many of which sadly seem to entirely elude you—despite the efforts of experts and those of us on this blog!
Yes, Thomas Jefferson favored education. But Mary Elizabeth—he had no earthly experience with the present-day public education monopoly and therefore could not possibly support you in your quest to stifle education reform.
Do please finally understand that.
The Truth
July 14th, 2012
4:23 pm
Hate the game not the players….
They are teachers not alchemists. What are you expecting from them? Be honest… You can not make gold out of lead.
You only reap what you sow. Undisciplined children from previous generations are now having their own babies. Why do you think there are so many social security disability and accident lawyer commercials on the television. We have become a nation of lawyers, leaches and losers.
But teachers can retire (to another state) at thirty years and work in another profession.
EduKtr
July 14th, 2012
4:26 pm
@The Truth
You got that right fella.
EduKtr
July 14th, 2012
4:33 pm
The above comment at 4:26 pm is from someone using my blog name rather than their own.
Angela Dean
July 14th, 2012
5:01 pm
As a friend and RCWP colleague of David’s, I am proud to see his work highlighted by Dr. Smagorinsky.
The point is that he’s a dynamic teacher who reaches kids. At the end of the day, will his work with those kids translate to successful test scores? I’m certain that it will, but that isn’t all he is or all of what his teaching is about. Unfortunately, the evaluation system that our state is rushing to put together and arguing with the federal government over, won’t show all of who David is as an educator.
The frustration for me is that it isn’t just one test, it is sometimes 30 days of testing in addition to the assessments we personally give in our rooms. Personally speaking, I want accountability. I want it, however, with valid and reliable measures. I want to have a reasonable amount of time allotted for the testing days (30 days leaves me with 150 or less for instruction, since we have shortened the school calendars for budget purposes). I want it to reflect the work I’ve actually done with the students and reflect their growth. I also want it to inform me of how to improve. When you receive test scores the last two weeks of school or the test is completely thrown out all together once scores come in because the powers that be determined the test an invalid measure, there isn’t an opportunity for the educator to use those scores to help her students.
In regards to spending on education, we spend millions ($25,000,000 quoted for 2013 here in this article http://www.empoweredga.org/Articles/Arnold/rotten-core-1.html) in paying private corporations for testing and testing development). We have spent millions to bring in outsiders to help us revamp the teacher evaluation system. The money isn’t going to classrooms and the money isn’t going toward professional development (cut completely). Search here http://www.empoweredga.org/cuts.html if you want to see how much your district has cut funding to education.
Many of us fully realize that we could go do something else, but we don’t want to. It is because of the students we work with each day, championing their achievements and supporting them in their struggles. If all of the David Ragsdales were to pack it up and take their talents elsewhere, what would our schools look like then? What would our schools look like if we had more?
Thank you for taking the time to highlight the good work we are doing on this blog.
@solutions
July 14th, 2012
5:06 pm
oh. The WSJ. Well, then it must be right. Because, you know, the tutoring I’ve done? At least at 75-point average improvement, and then some. Because, you know, you would know since you’ve dipped your own personal toe in the educational waters. What was I thinking, inserting something so easily debunked by the pantheon of educational information, The Wall Street Journal.
Mary Elizabeth
July 14th, 2012
5:21 pm
EduKtr, 4:20 pm
I will address your personal remarks to me this one last time, and then I will ignore your remarks in the future.
(1) You write: “Mary Elizabeth, do you never tire of condescension and your laughably faulty erudition on the subject of Thomas Jefferson?”
If these words of yours not the height of condescension I do not know what would be? I suspect you try to belittle my thinking simply because I am a liberal in a conservative state, which you find threatening. Get over it.
(2) You write: “The man (Jefferson) spoke great truths in his lifetime: too many of which sadly seem to entirely elude you—despite the efforts of experts and those of us on this blog!”
I give credence to Saul Padover’s thoughts and to his expertise regarding Jefferson, not to your thoughts. I have already given Padover’s credentials. You, on the other hand, indulge in insulting pettiness. You write: “Efforts of those of us on this blog.” Please. “Those of us on this blog?” Each person on this blog has a separate, and unique, thought process. This blog does not operate through a “Group Mentality,” and it certainly isn’t run through some kind of perverse popularity contest regarding the thoughts “of us on this blog.”
(3) You write: “Yes, Thomas Jefferson favored education. But Mary Elizabeth—he had no earthly experience with the present-day public education monopoly and therefore could not possibly support you in your quest to stifle education reform.”
If you had bothered to read any of my posts with any depth and understanding, as well as bothered to read the links to my personal blog on educational concerns, you would have already realized that I have been in the forefront in advocating for “educational reform” within public education through the exercise of more individualized instruction to address both the upper ends of student achievement as well as the lower ends of student achievement. I have even said that I support some degree of public charter schools, working with traditional public schools, to achieve educational reform. Not only do I presently state ways to accomplish educational reform within public education, I had practiced educational reform as an Instructional Lead Teacher working under a dynamic, innovative principal, who had been the Associate Superintendent for Instruction, within an outstanding model school for the continuous progress of EVERY student’s reaching his or her maximum potential – both high and low ends – through mastery learning. To say that I would ever “stifle educational reform” is absurd. You are correct to assume that I am attempting to keep public education from being dismantled within our state and nation. And, I believe Jefferson would applaud my doing so – for the reasons I elaborated upon in my 3:53 pm post, which I suggest you read and digest, especially regarding ALEC, public schools, and corporate interests.
It is obvious to me that you are a particular conservative who is simply threatened by my progressive views for Georgia and its educational delivery system for its students. I am finished in caring to respond to you further, although you will probably change your moniker and be back insulting me, again, using another moniker. However, I believe I will recognize your style of writing.
Do you really think that I would allow this nation to fall into the hands of those as petty and mean-spirited as you appear to be, without speaking out against what you represent? If you think I would remain silent in the face of that possibility for this nation, you do not know me in any depth – and that is obvious.
EduKtr
July 14th, 2012
6:01 pm
By all means, Mary Elizabeth, do continue in your striving to finally understand Jefferson. But also do this: put aside any later-day analysis by “experts” and read the man’s own words in the actual vernacular of his era.
And stop imagining that conservatives, any more than our Founding Fathers, have other than the very best interests of our fellow men (and women) at heart.
Cheers!
Student Advocate
July 14th, 2012
6:13 pm
David – kudos!
A scenario – How would the Clarke County community feel if budget cuts caused him to be let go, because someone else had been teaching with the school system longer? This happens all the time to great teachers. Principals need to be able to keep their very best assets, and manage their own staff in a way that is best for the students, not best for the adults.
Mary Elizabeth
July 14th, 2012
7:26 pm
EduKtr, 6:01 pm
I have frequently documented, on this blog, Jefferson’s words from his writings, which I have read – from his “Autobiography,” from his “Notes on Virginia,” and from his private letters. Even my 3:53 pm post states Jefferson’s words, as he stated them in his era, which you did not choose to address.
I have no doubt that many conservatives have the best interests of America at heart, as do many liberals. What I do not see in many conservatives is a enlightened understanding of an egalitarian vision of all humanity, as deeply as Jefferson understood that vision, as shown through his writings and through his actions.
I have had an interest in reading the thoughts of many of our Founding Fathers, especially since my retirement, including the thoughts and mental processes of Hamilton, Adams, Washington, and Franklin, as well as of Jefferson. You well know that these Founding Fathers often disagreed on issues, especially in the pull between a centralized government and states’ rights. I do not agree with Jefferson in every regard. I mention Jefferson more often than the others on this blog because of his views regarding public education and egalitarianism, of which enlightened education brings a richer understanding.
Teacher2
July 14th, 2012
8:01 pm
@Mary Elizabeth
The mere fact that Jefferson had slaves is contradictory to your utopian view of him. The comment that “Jefferson was a slave owner who stated that African-American were the equal of white Americans and that it was only the ill effects of their slave circumstances that made them appear less “equal ” is completely contradictory. How can one see African-Americans as equal yet enslave them?
The comment that “He acknowledged that slavery was wrong and he predicted (when he was elderly), that within 50 years, slaves would be made free in America (which they were through the Civil War).” This is a futile attempt to justify his ownership of slaves. Why should he be given credit that he believed slavery was wrong, yet he never freed his slaves? Could his prediction be based on the increasing slave revolts during that time rather than his vision (a vision that he failed to advocate as an abolitionist)? If Jefferson truly believed in the “evils” of slavery then he would have joined the abolitionist movement which had prominent leaders during Jefferson’s lifetime.
I believe Jefferson may have felt slavery was “wrong” but not wrong enough to stop the financial wealth that it created for him. After all, Jefferson did not free Sally Hemming. He professed that he loved her and had children with her but that was not reason to free her! In perspective, Jefferson could not free one of probably 200 slaves during his lifetime.
The comment “Jefferson’s slaves had great affection for him” was the most ridiculous statement made in your justification of Jefferson’s slave ownership. How can an enslaved person have a true affection for the slave owner? The slave owner systematically deprives the slaves of their humanity by the mere forcing of FREE labor for their ENTIRE lifetime. It is impossible to be a good slave owner. The mere act of oppressing people for monetary gain makes the slave owner inhumane by nature. I respect your opinions as an educator but I think you have placed Jefferson on a pedestal to which he does not deserve.
Dr. Proud Black Man
July 14th, 2012
8:08 pm
@EduKtr
Quit being a Richard.
Dr. Proud Black Man
July 14th, 2012
8:15 pm
@Mary Elizabeth
Take off your rose colored glasses sweetie. Jefferson was the worst kind or racist. He knew the “peculiar institution” was wrong but since he profited from it he kept his criticism only to paper. Hardly worth citing him in modern day arguments don’t you think?
EduKtr
July 14th, 2012
9:24 pm
@Black: Don’t know or particularly care what a “Richard” is.
Mary Elizabeth
July 14th, 2012
9:59 pm
Dr. Proud Black Man
You tell me that “Jefferson was the worst kind of racist.” I will try to respond to you and others tomorrow, but for the time being how do you think I feel as a woman, when you refer to me as “sweetie”? Have you considered how sexist you show yourself to be, with that one gesture, and yet you judge Jefferson? Better to look, inward, to your own evolution of enlightenment, I would say. That greeting of me was neither enlightened or justified.
Teacher2
July 14th, 2012
10:02 pm
@Mary Elizabeth
May I also include that Jefferson did not free his children that he fathered with Sally Hemming. I find it incredible that he did not free his children from the “evils” of slavey either!
Jeanine
July 14th, 2012
11:05 pm
Teachers in different types of schools have quite different challenges and cannot be easily compared or evaluated using the same criteria.
Teachers in private schools where the students are screened and tested before being admitted have students who are already at the top level on standardized tests. If their students continue to perform well on the testing “du jour”, the teachers are likely doing what is expected of them. Their job is primarily to maintain and expand the students achievement.
A teacher in a school in a less affluent area and/or with students whose first language is not English have an entirely different challenge. What we should be looking for here is PROGRESS. So far, the educrats in Ga. have not grasped that PROGRESS must be measured on the SAME group of students from before instruction and then again AFTER instruction. THE SAME STUDENTS….NOT the 7th graders of 2010 compared to the 7th graders of 2011. It is not a valid measure of progress if it is not using exactly the same students!
IF and that’s a big IF, the correct method for measuring progress were ever used , the teachers that are now abused unmercifully, would likely prove to be the systems’ SHINING STARS.
Dr. Proud Black Man
July 14th, 2012
11:05 pm
@Mary Elizabeth
So calling you sweetie puts me on the same level as a slaver? Have a blessed weekend sugar.
@ EduKtr
Try the informal version of Richard and you might see the light!
Mary Elizabeth
July 14th, 2012
11:47 pm
@Dr. Proud Black Man, 11:05 pm
“So calling you sweetie puts me on the same level as a slaver? Have a blessed weekend sugar.”
—————————————————————————
I am disappointed in you. Of course, addressing me as “sweetie” does not put you on the same level as a slave holder and I never said that it did, but using that condescending term of address to me indicates sexism – which does show a lack of enlightened thinking. I thought you might have been large enough, as an evolved human being, to apologize to me for having chosen to use such a belittling term of address, once it was pointed out to you how doing so would make a woman feel (especially a woman of almost 70, in my case). Instead, you doubled-up with the sexist remarks by calling me, “sugar.” You tell me to have a “blessed weekend,” but that statement does not ring true to me, with any authenticity, because of the way in which you have addressed me with such deliberate condescension, twice now. I have not followed your thoughts enough, in the past, to have formed a judgment of your thinking, but you have lost much credibility with me this evening because of the way in which you have chosen to address me, irrespective of our varied thoughts on Jefferson.
————————————————————————
@Teacher2, 8:01 pm and 10:02 pm
On the other hand, you were quite sincere in your questioning of my views of Jefferson and you brought up some legitimate concerns regarding him. I will attempt to answer you tomorrow. This evening I did look up documentation for you, and I found specific references, in the Padover book, that will address your concerns. It is late now so that I will write a coherent response to your thoughts, tomorrow.
Thank you for keeping your exchange with me respectful, even though our views on Jefferson may vary.
Truth in Moderation
July 14th, 2012
11:55 pm
@Teacher2
Slavery has been around since recorded history. All nations have practiced it at one time or another, in one form or another. Wars produce slavery or death to the conquered. Currently, economic slavery backed by a well equipped NATO military is popular. In the 90’s I lobbied Congress to remove China from the Most Favored Trade status because they used slave labor to produce their cheap exports. Both Dems and Republicans, Northerners and Left Coasters, ALL supported trade with China. Predictably, America’s non-slave cheap labor was not cheap enough to compete, and our manufacturing base was destroyed. Did YOU buy those cheap goods and services from China? If so, you and millions of Americans supported slavery. Our children are now debt slaves because each preceding generation allowed our Congress to borrow WITH INTEREST from the Federal Reserve to fund what we could not afford. There are now few jobs because they all went overseas to cheap/slave labor.
That said, it was rice, cotton, and tobacco slave plantation owners that initially funded the American Revolution. Remember, the King of England’s main interest in the American Colonies was financial, and they had prosperous trade with England and other countries. While some slavery did exist in England, it became more palatable when the slaves were overseas in the Colonies. Originally, indentured servants were used, but changing economics in Europe made their labor more expensive, and their use declined after the Revolutionary war. In the South, with its heat and humidity, buying African slaves to work the cotton, tobacco, and rice plantations became economically attractive. Once a slave system was set up, the attitudes and way of life for both the slave owners and slave was passed on to the next generation. Unlike indentured servants, there was no end to their subjugation to the Master. The local economics become dependent on this system, and the “master’s” attitudes of superiority were ingrained in the culture. It was a system that would ultimately collapse, only to be replaced by cheap child labor in the “new technology” factories of the North after the Civil War.
Regarding the Founding Fathers and education, my ancestor and Signer of the Declaration of Independence, Arthur Middleton, was one of the better educated. The family’s vast wealth and political influence in the South Carolina colony played a role in securing America’s independence from England. According to the Society of the Descendants of the Signers of the Declaration of Independence, “Arthur Middleton’s earliest education was provided by tutors and private schools in Charleston. As was the custom of the time, Arthur was sent to England at the age of 12 for further education. He attended the celebrated Hackney School (later Harrow) and then on to Westminster School in 1757 and graduated from Cambridge in 1760, at the age of 18. It was here that he acquired a thorough education in the Greek and Roman classic literature that he continued to enjoy throughout his life. He was a serious scholar, avoiding some of the exploits of his less dedicated American companions. Arthur went on to study law at the Middle Temple in London, and later decided to tour Europe for the next two years. During the time he was abroad, not only did Arthur become proficient in Latin and Greek but acquired a taste for music, painting, sculpture and architecture. He had become a true renaissance man.” Even with his aristocratic leanings and English education, Arthur was passionate to preserve liberty for the South Carolina colony and funded the Revolution. It cost him a year in a prison in St. Augustine, the ransacking of his plantation, hardship for his wife and children, and an early death at the age of 44.
Here’s a good overview of Arthur Middleton’s life:
http://www.dsdi1776.com/signers-by-state/arthur-middleton/
SGaTeechur
July 15th, 2012
7:52 am
To those of you, and the general public, ranting about teachers passing (and graduating) students who are not academically capable….
After teaching at all grade levels in Georgia, I have seen this happen over and over again. I am sick of it, and I am sickened by it. Those of us who will not give a passing grade to Little Johnny to keep him eligible are treated likes if we have some dread disease.
We are told students cannot be retained, in spite of failing most parts of the CRCT and math, reading, science, social studies classes, etc. There is no room for them, not enough teachers, etc.
Many of us try and try and try, only to be dismissed with the back of a hand. We are sick of it.
Pride and Joy
July 15th, 2012
8:36 am
Truth in Moderation,
Please think hard about what you said. You said “That said, it was rice, cotton, and tobacco slave plantation owners that initially funded the American Revolution.”
Slave plantation owners funded….
This isn’t true.
The forced labor of negro slaves funded the American Revolution as well as a huge loan from France that Benjamin Franklin begged at court to get.
Remember, your learned ancestor was learning Greek and learning to appreciate the finer things in life while his slaves were doing the back breaking, life-ending work of creating wealth that partially funded the war…
….and let’s not kid ourselves what Arthur Middleton was doing and why…he wanted freedom from England for himself and other white landed gentry, not for all of us and ceratinly not the black slaves whose lives your ancestor robbed.
It’s funny how a little twist of a word can change the whole meaning of it.
The money your ancestor gave was not his own. It belonged to the black slaves who your ancestor abused and robbed…and that, my friend, is not something I would be proud of.
Dr. Proud Black Man
July 15th, 2012
9:15 am
@Mary Elizabeth
Calm down, this is an ANONYMOUS, for the most part, informal blog. If my calling you sweetie or sugar upsets you perhaps some anger management tools or yoga would be beneficial. You make a lot of ASSumptions when analyzing my posts to you. I didn’t realize that along with your superior pedagogical skills you are also blessed with clairvoyance. Have a blessed Sunday boo.
bootney farnsworth
July 15th, 2012
9:21 am
this is amazing.
once upon a long time ago, Rush Limbaugh introduced the US to the concept of seminar callers. trolls who work from a predetermined script to push a specific point regardless of reality/facts.
update the concept slightly to become seminar posters, and here we are.
Pride and Joy
July 15th, 2012
9:27 am
Mary Elizabeth is right when she says “I will try to respond to you and others tomorrow, but for the time being how do you think I feel as a woman, when you refer to me as “sweetie”? ”
The degredation of women is still acceptable to many men in our society. When this degredation comes from someone who proclaims that his race causes him to be degraded…it is especially concerning.
If Dr. Proud Black Man claims that discrimination is wrong, surely he should see the folly and duplicity of calling Mary Elizabeth “Sweeetie.” To a woman, Dr. Black Man, calling us “Sweetie” is the same as calling you “boy.”
Pride and Joy
July 15th, 2012
9:37 am
Jeanine makes a valid and important point.
What we need is testing for students at the beginning of the year to determine what they know and then again at the end of the year to determine what they learned during that year from those teachers. This is the most accurate way to measure what was learned and to measure how effective the teacher is.
I just don’t understand WHY our school system doesn’t do this. It is a no-brainer, an obvious way to measure growth or lack or it for both the teacher and the student.
The thing is, I think APS isn’t really interested in measuring real learning or interested in truly evaluating teachers. I think the administration only wants what makes them look better.
My child’s sterling attendance records were altered.
That’s right, My child missed only TWO days of school last year and guess what? The end of year report card was altered to say zero absences and zero tardies.
For goodness sake, my children were late, by less than five minutes only twice last year and missed only two days of school, yet APS altered the records. To whom do I report this? Surely it is a crime to alter records.
Dr. Proud Black Man
July 15th, 2012
9:47 am
@Pride and Joy
” To a woman, Dr. Black Man, calling us “Sweetie” is the same as calling you “boy.”
Your opinion pride, BUT try a little experiment; have your husband, if you have one, refer to a woman as sweetie in casual conversation. Then have him call a black man a boy. IF its the same as you claim the reaction should be the same no? Have a blessed weekend sugar.
NWGA Teacher
July 15th, 2012
9:53 am
Jeanine: Yes. Throw out the 30 days of prep and testing, and bring on the pre- and post-tests to show progress.
I love teaching. I hate what it is becoming...
July 15th, 2012
10:29 am
@Dr Proud
Please. Don’t pretend you did not know EXACTLY what you were suggesting when you called a female poster “sweetie”. Any woman posting here knows what you were implying, and you are smart enough to know as well.
Dr. Proud Black Man
July 15th, 2012
10:35 am
@I love blah, blah, blah,becoming…
What “EXACTLY” am I suggesting??? Once again some of the posters’ claryvoiance skills never fail to amaze me!
David Graham
July 15th, 2012
11:09 am
An awe inspiring figure as a teacher, mentor, and just a good man. I am glad that someone else recognizes the talents of one David Alan Ragsdale.
homeschooler
July 15th, 2012
11:10 am
@ Solutions. Your July 14th 3:10 comment was awesome. I believe education has improved dramatically over the past several years in the lower class areas
I am so impressed when I come in contact with some of the lower socioeconomic kids. I doubt that 30 yrs ago a large percentage these kids would have learned to read in Kindergarten. These teachers are successfully teaching 5 and 6 yr olds to read. Kids whose parents may not be able to read, hispanic kids who have never even spoken English are READING at age 5 and 6. I think that is amazing and every teacher responsible for that should be rewarded with our respect.
The problem is that when only 70 percent of these kids learns to read, we give the teachers a hard time?!?! The teachers in the higher achieving school get more kudos..why? because their results are 100percent. So, they taught 25 kindergarteners to read who are from upper middle class neighborhoods. Kids who probably walked through the door already knowing thier letters, numbers. Kids who had spent hours and hours watching “edudcational television” and being read to by mom and dad. Who is the better teacher? The one who taught 20 out of 25 kids to read in the South Cobb school or the one who taught 25 kids to read in the East Cobb School. These are the thoughts that I had when I read the CRCT results. It infuriates me that we would assess these schools on an even scale when the kids are so incredible different.
Anybody remember the movie “Summer School” with Mark Harmon from the 80’s? As I remember the kids were supposed to pass some sort of test at the end of the summer. Most of them still failed but they improved so much that the teacher pointed out to them how the increase made them successful. Sometimes those improvements are what we need to look at.
My point in regards to “solutions” comment is that we need to stop judging all teachers and students on the same scale. Our schools might be very successful at educating the mass population but if wee keep lowering the bar to make sure that 100percent of the lowest of the low can succeed we are doing nothing for the above average students. They are not equal. No matter how un-politically correct that statement is. They are not equal.
Prof
July 15th, 2012
11:23 am
I just want to point out that CHATTEL slavery was/is vastly different from all other kinds of slavery, for it regarded the slave as literally property or chattel, rather than human. Now, the word “slave” seems used as a metaphor, but CHATTEL slavery was no metaphor. It was a terrible reality for millions upon millions of people abducted from their homelands and treated as things.
Dc
July 15th, 2012
11:26 am
Dr Henson…..wow, your post may be the most encouraging writeup i have ever read on public schools….what a breathe of fresh air to see a school so focused on helping students achieve and show measurable improvement in results….and so able to see past the bull of degrees, honoraries, and meaningless teacher evaluations that have so hurt our school system through the years. I hope and pray that your school is successful and can act as a shining light for schools across Georgia and the country
ColoradoTeacher
July 15th, 2012
12:38 pm
Thank you for this inspiring column. It left me energized to do more and be more as a teacher this year, in my 20th year of teaching. David Ragsdale does what those of us who have come to teaching as a mission aspire to do. He elevates lives.
As we’ve faced our own disheartening battles in my Colorado district to keep public education alive and out of the hands of ALEC inspired and funded privateers, I have counseled myself not to read the comments attached to articles like yours. Someone above wondered “who butters their bread,” but at this point I think there is very little question about that. Paid trolls spend their days highjacking comment threads across the country in an attempt to sway public opinion against public schools. They are easy to spot by the talking-points and buzz-words: monopoly, government-schools, tenure, choice, union-istas… One interesting difference: I have never seen Thomas Jefferson highjack a comment thread. Maybe that’s unique to Georgia?
Because I did read the comment thread, against my own better judgement, I’ll now re-read the column in an attempt to recapture the energy inspired by David Ragsdale.
Mary Elizabeth
July 15th, 2012
12:45 pm
@Teacher2, 8:01 and 10:02 pm, July 12, 2012
I had promised you last evening that I would, today, attempt to respond to your legitimate concerns regarding Thomas Jefferson. Again, thank you for the sincerity of your questions and underlying respectful manner with me. I view human nature as complex. I will probably give some documentation, below, which you may find issue, but please know that what I share on this blog has been, nevertheless, documented, as you will see below.
As a teacher, I seek truth for myself and for others. I am not a historian and I do not pretend to be an expert on Jefferson; however, I am open to learn truth, and I seek to learn truth about Jefferson and about how his mind, in all of its compexities and disparate parts, worked.
As I begin, I do want you to know my own views and how strongly I feel about them. I grew up as a white South Georgia girl at the very end of the Jim Crow era. I remember the separate bathrooms, separate water fountains, schools separated for blacks and whites, and I remember the racism and fears of that era of my preteen and teen years. I was appalled by it. I spoke out against it to my high school friends, contrary to the beliefs of many of them. I have never had trouble going against popular opinion. My parents were both sympathtic to the plight of African-Americans in that Jim Crow era, also. Both are now deceased. I felt so strongly about the South’s overall repression – not only against the integration of the races into its segregated system of living, but also regarding the keeping of women to subjugated roles of accepted conduct, especially in an anti-intellectualism environment, that I left Georgia with my first husband (and lifelong friend) when I was 20 years old for the Village of New York City, where I felt an affinity with my more “liberal” worldview. I came back to my Southern roots after I had graduated from college in NYC, and after my first husband and I had mutually decided to end our marriage, but remain lifelong friends. He remained in NYC. He is now deceased. I came back South because I loved – and needed – my family especially at that time in my life. I married a second time and established a family life in Atlanta. My views concerns the races, and my egalitarian vision regarding all people throughout the world, are consistent, today at age 69, with the same worldview I had held in south Georgia as an adolescent. I have always had great empathy for what African-Americans have had to endure in our nation’s histsory.
Now, to try to address your specific questions. The first question you ask is: “How can one see African-Americans as equal yet enslave them?”
I cannot justify that. I only can recognize that it was a different era and locale into which Jefferson was born. The overall accepted norm into which Jefferson was born had condoned slavery, even though, as you mention, there were abolitionists against slavery even in Jefferson’s day.
Here are are few excerpts from Saul Padover’s book (published in 1942, 1980 by Konecky & Konecky in arrangement with Harcourt, Brace & Company), entitled simply “Jefferson” which may help you to understand better Jefferson’s mind and his choices.
From pages 232-234:
“Jefferson hated and dreaded the whole institution of slavery. He felt that it degraded both the master and the man. One of his most eloquent condemnations of slavery every written is from his ‘Notes on Virginia’: ‘The whole commerce between master and slave is a perpetual exercise of the most boisterous passions, the most unremitting despotism on the one part, and degrading submissions on the other. . .” (link to this entire writing by Jefferson will be given later)
“What was equally tragic about slavery, Jefferson felt, was that it destroyed the fiber and stamina of the South by making whites lazy and shiftless: ‘With the morals of the people, their industry also is destroyed. . . .Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep forever.’
“But there was not much that an individual planter could do about it. In a slave economy the planter had little choice but to continue using slave labor or to bamkrupt himself by liberating his Negroes. Freeing the slaves, however, was no solution either, for such freedmen, unable to find free work in a slave world, would be certain to be exposed to beggary and starvation. . .
“Dominant opinion had it that the Negroes were incapable of independence and unable to take care of themselves. Many, possibly most, white people insisted that Negroes were inferior beings in every way, and hence it was ‘natural’ that they be enslaved. Jefferson had strong doubts about the ‘natural’ inferiority of Negroes. Indeed, when he met a Negro of culture and education (there were such even in those early days), he welcomed him warmly and entertained him in his home as a guest.
“Occasionally the author of the Declaration of Independence would receive letters from educated Negroes, pleading for equality. One such letter, written to him in 1791 by Benjamin Banneker, a Negro mathematician and astonomer, upbraided Jefferson for keeping slaves against his principles. . . .Jefferson’s reply was that he realized that the so-called inferiority of colored people was due to their environment, that they had not been given a chance to raise themselves above their degraded status. He hoped that everything would be done to ameliorate this condition.
(Jefferson): ‘Nobody wishes more than I do to see such proofs as you exhibit, that nature has given to our black breathren, talents equal to those of the other colors of men, and that the appearance of a want of them is owing merely to the degraded condition of their existence both in Africa & America. I can add with truth, that no body wishes more ardently to see a good system commenced for raising the condition both of their body & mind to what it ought to be, as fast as the imbecility of their present existence, and other circumstances which cannot be neglected, will admit.’ ”
===================================================
Teacher2, I will respond to your thoughts about Jefferson’s slaves having affection for him in my next post because this post is long enough, already.
Dr. Proud Black Man
July 15th, 2012
1:04 pm
Enter your comments here
Prof
July 15th, 2012
1:11 pm
@ ColoradoTeacher. Your perspective is welcome, and I think your comments about the troll-hijacking of blogs such as this one are quite accurate. Here, however, you have to read several weeks’ worth of this blog to understand the context for what you say about Georgia’s very own “Thomas Jefferson hijack.”
One frequent blogger, “Mary Elizabeth,” who has noted she’s a retired Georgia educator of about 30 years’ standing, often cites Jefferson to support her liberal position that, like yours, questions the “ALEC privateers.” Our blog-trolls have seized upon TJ as their attack-point so as to “push Mary Elizabeth’s buttons,” you might say.
However, there is a cadre of genuine educator-bloggers here who push back, and I think they’re valuable to heed. Our facilitator Maureen Downey seems to filter out the worst hijackers….who down here are also quite often racist and sometimes antisemitic. I find it all genuinely instructive about what’s going on across the country in public K-12 education.
Oh, and you can probably anticipate some nastinesses directed your way too on here. As we say down here sarcastically, bless their hearts.
Dr. Proud Black Man
July 15th, 2012
1:12 pm
@Mary Elizabeth
Now I see why Jefferson is your idol. I grew up, I’m 55, with “decent” white folk who for whatever reason were absent, along with plenty of colored people during the civil rights struggle. I would suggest that you read Letter From a Birmingham Jail. Also i do understand why my remark of “sweetie” upset you. It was “impudent” of me wasn’t it? Have a nice day Miss Mary.
Prof
July 15th, 2012
1:24 pm
As a P.S. to my 11:23 am post, I want to add that the European slave-trade of Africans—imported to all the North and South American colonies of England, France, Spain, Portugal, and Holland from the mid-1500s on–was CHATTEL SLAVERY. That was true for our own colonies too.
OK– I’ll leave my own blog-hijacking now. Please go back to David Ragsdale and his example of inspiring teaching that still does take place.
Mary Elizabeth
July 15th, 2012
2:07 pm
@Teacher 2,
You wrote in your post to me at 8:01 pm, last evening:
“The comment ‘Jefferson’s slaves had great affection for him’ was the most ridiculous statement made in your justification of Jefferson’s slave ownership. How can an enslaved person have a true affection for the slave owner? The slave owner systematically deprives the slaves of their humanity by the mere forcing of FREE labor for their ENTIRE lifetime. It is impossible to be a good slave owner. The mere act of oppressing people for monetary gain makes the slave owner inhumane by nature.”
———————————————————————-
I can well understand how and why you feel as you do. However, I must ask the following question of you: “Do you think that there might have been some slave owners who were more kind in their relationships with their slaves than others (And could some slave owners have, even, been more evolved human beings than others?), or do you think that slave owners of that day were all the same in how they “saw,” as well as how they treated their slaves?
I believe that there was a difference in those slave owners’ perceptions of, and treatment of, their slaves, and I believe that that difference (even though slavery, itself, was inherently wrong) was what accounted for Jefferson’s slaves affection for him. Here is an excerpt from Saul K. Padover’s book entitled “Jefferson,” pages 171 – 172, which demonstrates Jefferson’s slaves affection for him. The incidence was recorded in a book published by Jefferson’s Great Grand-Daughter, approximately fifty years after Jefferson’s death, compiled from “family letters and reminiscences.” “Martha,” referred to in the excerpt, below, from Padover’s book, was one Jefferson’s two surviving daughters.
“Having thus left the decision in the hands of President Washington, Jefferson, his mind relieved, continued on his way to Monticello. It was a slow journey, the Jeffersons stoppping on the way to visit many friends. Two days before Christmas they finally reached the outskirts of their estate. Jefferson had not been home for more than five years. (He had been in Europe for America’s affairs.)
“Never before had there been such jubilation as now took place when the master and his two attractive daughters arrived home. The Negroes had learned of the approach of the Jeffersons when they reached Shadwell, four miles from Monticello, and they streamed down the mountain in a frenzy of jubilant excitement. When the carriage appeared, the slaves surrounded it with unrestrained emotion. Nothing, not even the entreaties of the master, could stop them from unhitching the four horses and pushing and dragging the heavy vehicle up the steep mountain to the house. They sang and cried with joy. And when Jefferson, himself deeply moved, stepped out of the carriage, his slaves fell upon him in an orgy of worship. ‘When the door of the carriage was opened,’ Martha relates, ‘they received him in their arms and bore him to the house, crowding around and kissing his hands and feet – some blubbering and crying – others laughing. It seemed impossible to satisfy their anxiety to touch and kiss the very earth which bore him.’ ”
(From Footnote 2, Chapter X, in the Padover book, “Jefferson,” taken from “The Domestic Life of Thomas Jefferson, Compiled from Family Letters and Reminiscences by His Great-Grand-Daughter,” by Sarah Nicholas Randolph, Harper & Bros., New York, 1871, page 152. Contains a wealth of materials dealing with private and family matters.)
====================================================
Teacher2,
I have researched more information for you regarding whether Jefferson freed his four surviving children with his slave Sally Hemings, or not. I, also, have additional information regarding Jefferson’s egalitarian thinking and practices, which have impacted our nation’s destiny, even to the present day (from the “Encyclopedia Brittannica,” published in 1958).
I have plans for this afternoon, but I have already recorded some of that additional information, and I will share it with you – and others – later this evening.
Google "NEA" and "donations"
July 15th, 2012
3:03 pm
Nothing too unusual here, @Colorado. Just liberal white groupies swarming a race-baiter (@Proud Black, in this case) to receive the humiliation & abuse they so crave. PBM is a practiced hand at meting this out, no doubt.
Amusing to the rest of us … but perhaps secretly thrilling to you?
bootney farnsworth
July 15th, 2012
3:11 pm
@ prof,
this blog dove off the rails long ago.
Prof
July 15th, 2012
3:14 pm
@ ColoradoEducator.
Wasn’t I right? Good solid racism like you probably don’t see in Colorado. A little nastier than usual, to be sure… but bless his or her heart.
Truth in Moderation
July 15th, 2012
3:32 pm
@Pride and Joy
One can’t choose one’s ancestors. And, slave labor was not free. They had to be purchased, clothed and fed for life. However, in many cases, slave labor was cheaper and more available than indentured servants. So, yes, a large portion of the Middleton wealth was due to the labor of the slaves, but not all of it. The original Middleton served as an indentured servant on a sugar cane plantation in Barbados. After gaining his freedom, he emigrated to the low country of South Carolina, where he became Lord Proprietor’s deputy and assistant justice of the Grand Council, 1768-1784. He received large grants of land on Goose Creek as payment. So, slavery had nothing to do with the family’s original obtainment of land. However, I’m not here to resurrect the Civil War. I have never owned a slave, nor would I ever desire to. As a Christian, I believe all of God’s children are equal in His sight. My co-worker in our church’s children’s ministry is from Haiti. He loves the Lord and is a great witness to our youth, who come in all skin colors. Our youth pastor is an American descendant of African slaves. He was a troubled youth, and even spent time in prison. Then he met Jesus and turned his life around. He has a zeal to preach the Gospel and the love of Christ to our youth. All of my children have a great love and respect for him. He is one of the main reasons we have stayed at our church.
As for Author Middleton, I bring up his education because many on this blog show great prejudice towards Southerners and scorn their education. Arthur’s contributions and background have been edited out of public school text books. I’m just putting the facts out there to set the record straight. I will say this, while I consider slavery to be an evil institution, I do believe God works all things together for good, and as Joseph’s slavery ended up blessing his family and saving them from starvation, I am thankful for the African-American citizens of this country and their many contributions.
Don H.
July 15th, 2012
4:19 pm
Atlanta is, of course, perfectly placed geographically and historically to cash in on the abundant silliness continually spawned by the racial grievance industry.
Practitioners on both sides can be genuinely pleased with the industry’s resilience over the years—and their lucrative roles in this—especially as the Obama economy continues to ravage other economic sectors and leave future generations in debt.
Will it be generations before the world realizes Georgians’ joint accomplishment?
Teacher2
July 15th, 2012
4:24 pm
@ Mary Elizabeth (Part 1)
The post that responded to the issue of Jefferson’s slaveholding was incredibly contradictory if “Jefferson hated and dreaded the whole institution of slavery. He felt that it degraded both the master and the man”. Why did he choose to participate in it? Jefferson ironically had an estimated 250 slaves on the massive Monticello estate. He was a substantial slave owner! The actions that Jefferson carried out for his entire lifetime (he never freed the slaves even at his death or once supported the abolitionist movement) are in complete contradiction of his words (surely he knew this when he spoke them!)
According to your post Jefferson justifies his use of slaves by stating “But there was not much that an individual planter could do about it. In a slave economy the planter had little choice but to continue using slave labor or to bankrupt himself by liberating his Negroes.” Jefferson is claiming that he had no choice but to perpetrate slavery, in other words: Do you expect me to risk my wealth by doing what is morally right, when everyone else has slaves? If Jefferson was a man of moral character the answer would have been yes! Jefferson continues “Freeing the slaves, however, was no solution either, for such freedmen, unable to find free work in a slave world, would be certain to be exposed to beggary and starvation. . .” So it was also in the slave’s best interest to remain in slavery? Considering slaves were historically never well feed and give scraps of food that the slave owner did want or eat, in my opinion that is not much of a difference. Jefferson is also conveniently forgetting that African-Americans were given greater opportunities in the North. The beggary scenario would only be applicable if the slave stayed in the South. My family settled in the North with nothing and eventually owned land as free blacks.
Teacher2
July 15th, 2012
4:27 pm
@ Mary Elizabeth (Part 2)
In addition, you indicated that “(Jefferson): ‘Nobody wishes more than I do to see such proofs as you exhibit, that nature has given to our black breathren, talents equal to those of the other colors of men, and that the appearance of a want of them is owing merely to the degraded condition of their existence both in Africa & America. I can add with truth, that no body wishes more ardently to see a good system commenced for raising the condition both of their body & mind to what it ought to be…” Again what an amazing contradiction! If “nobody wishes more than” Jefferson why didn’t he with his wealth and prominence make any type of effort to end slavery? He was one of most uniquely positioned people as signer of the Declaration of Independence; “that all men are created equal”. But least not forget that that applied to white men only because African-Americans were considered as 3/5 of a person in the Declaration of Independence, which is a document that he helped craft. So where were those “equal” beliefs then? Jefferson also had a greater arguably greater individual opportunity to exhibit his belief that slavery was “evil” and that African-Americans were “equal” when he became president of the United States of America. Jefferson did nothing on the issue of slavery.
In closing, the statement referring to Jefferson returning home from more than a five years trip ( that also included Sally Hemming as his companion). The slaves “sang and cried with joy. And when Jefferson, himself deeply moved, stepped out of the carriage, his slaves fell upon him in an orgy of worship. ‘When the door of the carriage was opened,’ Martha relates, ‘they received him in their arms and bore him to the house, crowding around and kissing his hands and feet – some blubbering and crying – others laughing. It seemed impossible to satisfy their anxiety to touch and kiss the very earth which bore him.’ ” Wow, that treatment is comparable to the treatment of Jesus and Jefferson still could not give them their freedom or at least do more than mere words for repayment for their “affection”.
Finally, you want to Jefferson credit for being a “kind” slave owner, which is an oxymoron. The mere act of oppressing people for monetary gain makes the slave owner inhumane by nature. Jefferson was a flawed and conflicted man who at best made comments that were politically correct regarding slavery especially considering his relationship with one of his slaves or at worst a man who never had the courage to act upon his beliefs. Again, I respect your opinions on education but you have an interesting ability to overlook Jefferson’s hypocrisy.
Dr. Proud Black Man
July 15th, 2012
4:48 pm
Hypocrisy, and some peoples justification of it, is par the course here in the South.
Mary Elizabeth
July 15th, 2012
5:41 pm
@Teacher2, 4:24 pm and 4:27 pm
I have read your responses to my first two posts regarding Jefferson. Please know that my purpose has not been to advocate for Jefferson regarding his not freeing of his slaves, but simply to present a fuller understanding of Jefferson. Having now provided all the details which I have regarding Jefferson in my three posts, I will simply leave the content of my postings with each reader to determine, within his or her own mind, the value of Thomas Jefferson to America. I do hope that each will recognize that none of us is either all good or all evil, and none of us – present and past – should be viewed as a caricatured figure. I simply wanted to show Jefferson as a man of many disparate parts and complexities, who – regardless of the varied and changing opinionss regarding him over the decades and centuries – neverthesless, penned the foundational, moral basis for America: “We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal.”
Below, will complete the details I wanted to provide for you, and for other readers, regarding Jefferson:
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Teacher 2, 10:02 pm, July 14, 2012:
“May I also include that Jefferson did not free his children that he fathered with Sally Hemming [sic]. I find it incredible that he did not free his children from the ‘evils’ of slavey either!”
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Evidently, from Wikipedia, under “Thomas Jefferson and Slavery,” Jefferson did find a way to set free his four children with Sally Hemings. He did not free Sally Hemings, herself, but his daughter, Martha, did free Sally Hemings after his death. See below:
“Jefferson allowed two of his ‘natural’ Hemings children to ‘escape’ rather than freeing them; the other two were freed through his will after his death. The Sally Hemings children were the only family to gain freedom from Monticello. In his will he freed three other male slaves, all older men who had worked for him for decades. After his death, his daughter Martha Randolph gave Sally Hemings and Wormley Hughes ‘their time,’ an informal freedom.”
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Some have questioned the egalitarian commitment of Jefferson in that he had penned the words that determined the foundational tenet for our nation, “All men are created equal,” yet he did not free his own slaves. Here is what “The World Book Encyclopedia,” 1988, Vol. 11, page 78, says regarding this:
“Jefferson considered attempting to end slavery in Virginia. But he took no strong stand because he felt the people of his state were not ready for such a major step. Jefferson had numerous slaves, but he believed slavery was morally wrong and could not permanently exist in the United States. He hoped the younger generation would end society’s dependence on this system. He wrote, ‘Nothing is more certainly written in the book of fate than that these people are to be free.’ ”
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Recently, I heard a well-known author (either Tom Brokaw or Jon Meacham – who has a book being published on Jefferson this November) saying in an interview on television that Thomas Jefferson set the foundational framework for our nation through his writings, especially in the Declaration of Independence, and today it is through his own lens that we judge his life. Yet, that author continued to say, we should be grateful to Jefferson that he had the fortitude and insight to establish this egalitarian concept for America because America could easily have had another foundational premise, and one less egalitarian, than the one established originally by Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence, and strengthened thereafter by him in his years as America’s third president.
From Wikipedia, under the heading, “Thomas Jefferson and Slavery”:
In the Virginia Assembly, in the 1780s Jefferson supported a bill to prohibit the state from importing slaves. In the 1784 Congress, Jefferson proposed federal legislation banning slavery in the New Territories of the Northwest, but it was not passed. . .In 1807, he signed a bill prohibiting the US from participating in the international slave trade; it had been protected from federal regulation for 20 years under compromises of the United States Constitution.”
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See below the words and actions of Jefferson, as described in the “Encyclopedia Britannica,”1958, entry entitled “Jefferson,” Vol. 12, which illustrate Jefferson’s impact on Americans, even today, including America’s still having a public educational system:
Page 987:
“He (Jefferson) hated the ‘morbid rage of debate,’ believing men were never convinced by argument, but only by reflection, through reading or unprovocative conversation; and this belief guided him through life. He was, however, as John Adams said of him in the Continental Congress though a silent member, so ‘prompt, frank, explicit and decisive upon committees and in conversation. . . that he was soon acknowledged as one of the strongest members. A forceful, facile pen added greatly to his influence.”
page 987:
“He (Jefferson) was the first American statesman to make education by the State a fundamental article of democratic faith. His bill for elementary education he regarded as the most important part of the code, but Virginia had no strong middle class and planters would not assume the burden of educating the poor. . . . At this time Jefferson championed the natural right of expatriation and gradual emancipation of all slaves. His earliest legislative effort, in 1769, had been marked by an efort to secure to masters freedom to manumit (free) their slaves without removing them from the State.”
Page 988:
“For the cession by Virginia to the United states of the vast territory north-west of the Ohio, consummated in that year, Jefferson had long laboured. Its importance to national unity was immense. His ordinance was notable for a provision that slavery should not exist after 1800, defeated in 1784, but adopted in 1787 for the Northwest Territory – a step which is very often said to have saved the Union in the Civil War; the Southwest Territory (out of which were later formed Mississippi, Alabama, etc.) being given over to slavery. To this anti-slavery clause of 1784 (though preceded by unofficial proposals to the same end) belongs rightlly some special honour as setting a precedent for Federal control of slavery in the Territories, which later proved of such enormous consequence. His anti-slavery opinions grew in strength with years. Not only justice but patriotism pleaded with him the cause of the negroes, for he realized the dire political dangers of slavery, and foresaw the certainty that the slaves must some day, in some way, be freed; and could any feasible plan of emanipation and re-migration have been suggested he would have regarded its cost as a mere bagatelle. It is true that of his slaves (at one time he owned above 150) he manumitted but a few at his death; and had he fully realized his insolvency doubtless he would have deprived his creditors of none. It is also true that he opposed the Missouri Compromise of 1820 – whether rightly or wrongly may be disputed – but at any rate for reasons (reflecting old political struggles) that are unsatisfying.”
Page 990:
“Jefferson’s administrations were distinguished by the simplicity that marked his conduct in private life. He exchewed the pomp and ceremonies, natural inheritances from English origins, that had been an innocent seeting to the office of his two predecessors. His dress was of ‘plain cloth’ on the day of his inauguration. Instead of driving to the Capitol in a coach and six, he walked without a guard or servant from his lodgings (or as a rival tradition has it, he rode, and hitched his horse to a neighbouring fence), attented by a crowd of citizens. He discontinued the practice of sending ministers abroad in public vessels. Between himself and the governors of States he recognized no difference in rank. He would not have his birthday celebrated by State balls. The weekly levee was practically abandoned. Even such titles as “Excellency,” ‘Honourable,” ‘Mr.’ were distasteful to him. It was formally agreed in cabinet meeting that ‘when brought together in society all are perfectly equal, whether foreign or domestic, titled or untitled, in or out of office. Thus diplomatic grades were ignored in social precedence, and foreign relations were seriously compromised by dinner-table complications. One minister who appeared in gold lace and dress sword for his first official call on the president, was received by Jefferson – as he insisted with studied purpose – in negligent undress and slippers down at the heel. In truth, all this was in part premediated system indicative of his purpose to republicanize government and public opinion, which was the distinguishing feature of his administration; but it was also the nature of the man. In the company he chose by preference, honesty and knowledge were his only tests. He knew absolutely no social distinctions. ‘If it be possible,’ he said, ‘to be certainly conscious of anything, I am conscious of feeling no difference between writing to the highest and lowest being on earth.’ ”
Page 991:
“Jefferson, in short, had unlimited faith in the honesty of the people; a large faith in their common sense; believed that all is to be won by appealing to the reason of voters; that by education their ignorance can be eliminated; that human nature is indefinitely perfectible; that majorities rule, therefore, not only by virtue of force (which was Locke’s ultimate justification of them), but of right. His importance as a maker of modern America can scarely be overstated, for the ideas he advocated have become the very foundations of American republicanism. No other man’s ideas have had anything like an equal influence upon the institutions of the country. So competent a scholar as Andrew D. White put him alone in each of the three groups of men who did most to found, to build, and to brace the republic (Atlantaic Monthly, Jan. 1862). His administrations ended the possibility, probablility or certainty – measure it as one will – of a calculated development of Federalism in the direction of class government. Thus, by his own labours he vindicated his faith in the experiement of self-government.”
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Finally, you and others may find enlightening the writings of our first presidents regarding slavery in the following link. This link, also, is the link which I had written in my first post on Jefferson that I would provide, later.
The Opinions of Early Presidents about Slavery:
http://academic.udayton.edu/race/02rights/slave05.htm#Jefferson
Mary Elizabeth
July 15th, 2012
6:02 pm
@Prof,
Thank you for your astute and kind remarks. I have written on Jefferson on this educational thread with the hope that some may be interested in reading about him, in greater detail, since the progression of the thread seemed to move naturally in that direction. My best regards to you.
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@Dr. Proud Black Man,
I had read Dr. King’s “Letter from a Birmingham Jail” many years ago. King has greatly impacted my life. In fact, I made a point to be in attendance in Washington, D.C. last October when his National Monument was dedicated, even with elevated blood pressure. I wanted my grandchildren, one day, to know my level of commitment to his vision for humanity through my being there.
Also, many years ago, when I was at the King Center, I purchased a book entitled, “Strength to Love,” by Coretta Scott King which is a compilation of Dr. King’s writings. I recommend that book to you, and to others, if any have not yet read it.
Why not simply address me as “Mary Elizabeth,” rather than as “sweetie” or as “Miss Mary”? I would prefer that greeting, and simply using my first name is more in line with my egalitarian vision of one human being to another – neither higher than nor lower than – but on an equal level with one another, simply because we are all equal children of God.
HS Math Teacher
July 15th, 2012
7:03 pm
Nice article about a dedicated teacher, but Clarke County – one of the nation’s poorest counties? Really?? Ha!
Truth in Moderation
July 15th, 2012
8:56 pm
@Mary Elizabeth
I have enjoyed reading your research on Jefferson. Here’s something you have probably not come across: the Rhode Island-slave trade-chocolate-Brown University connection:
“Rhode Island, because of its trading relatinships with the West Indies, was also important in the cocoa trade and chocolate production. Two traders were prominent in the 18th century: Obadiah Brown from Providence and Aaron Lopez from Newport. Obadiah Brown, of the Rhode Island merchant family, had a variety of interests including African slave trade, West Indian trade (legal and illegal), and spermaceti candle making. Brown University is named after the family, of which Obadiah was the patriarch. He owned a watermill that made chocolate. This watermill might have been the first of its kind in North America although there were others. Aaron Lopez arrived in Newport in 1750 to join a Jewish community thet had been present for almost a century. Lopez became the “merchant prince” of New England, owning 30 of the 130 Newport ships engaged in the West Indies trade. His interests included African slave trading, whaling, West Indian and European trading, and chocolate manufacture.”
P. 289 Chocolate: History, Culture, and Heritage
By Louis E. Grivetti, Howard-Yana Shapiro
http://books.google.com/books?id=P4kD4Rf5C6wC&pg=PA289&lpg=PA289&dq=middleton+slaves+aaron+lopez&source=bl&ots=SShYt7COGg&sig=hLZPN1cQdUlEFMietqCMKcQdJ_0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Az8DUKaeCISm8ATYtNSVCA&ved=0CE0Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=middleton%20slaves%20aaron%20lopez&f=false
“In a great number of published original unprejudiced writings in the Carnegie Institute, we find that Aaron Lopez pursued a tremendous commerce in rum with the African coast in exchange for slaves. These irrefutable facts are as follows:
• June 22, 1764, a letter by Captain William Stead to Aaron Lopez.
• July 22, 1765, a letter by Aaron Lopez to Captain Nathaniel Briggs.
• July 22, 1765, a letter to Captain Abraham All.
• February 4, 1766, a letter to Captain William Stead by Aaron Lopez.
• March 7, 1766, a letter by Captain William Stead to Aaron Lopez.
• February 20, 1766, a letter by Aaron Lopez to Captain William Stead.
• October 8, 1766, a letter by Captain William Stead to Aaron Lopez.
• February 9, 1767, a letter by Captain William Stead to Aaron Lopez.
Aside from that, there are similar statements out of letters by Aaron Lopez in the original, which he directed to the Captains Henry Cruger, David Mill, Henry White, Thomas Dolbeare, and William Moore. Indeed, one letter by Captain William Moore to Aaron Lopez & Company, is particularly revealing, and of special mention at this point. We wish to remark on the main contents of this letter in which Captain Moore writes: “I wish to advise you that your ship ‘Ann’ docked here night before last with 112 slaves, consisting of 35 men, 16 large youths, 21 small boys, 29 women, 2 grown girls, 9 small girls, and I assure you this is such a one rumcargo (rum in exchange for slaves) which I have not yet encountered, among the entire group there may be five to which one could take exception.”
The date of the above letter was November 27, 1773. We have not yet concluded, because of lack of space, the excerpts and grateful compilations made available by the “Carnegie Institute.”
On November 29, 1767, the Jew Abraham Pereira Mendez—who had been cheated by one of his kind—from Charleston, where he had journeyed to better control his Black cargo, wrote Aaron Lopez at Newport:
“These Negroes, which Captain Abraham All delivered to me, were in such poor condition due to the poor transportation, that I was forced to sell 8 boys and girls for a mere 27 (pounds), 2 other for 45 (pounds) and two women each for 35 (pounds).” (No doubt, English money)
Abraham Pereia Mendez was very angry and accused Aaron Lopez of “cheating” him. This letter delineates to us that this generous and fine citizen of Newport was insatiable in his greed for money. This is what caused the Rabbi Morris A. Gutstein to present this nobleman, Aaron Lopez, to pursue his objectionable methods. Negroes presented to him but a commodity.”
http://www.iamthewitness.com/books/Walter.White/Who.Brought.the.Slaves.to.America.htm
Pride and Joy
July 15th, 2012
8:56 pm
I dont’ always agree with WHAT Mary Elizabeth says but…
I always agree with HOW Mary Elizabeth says it.
M.E. is strong yet polite.
Earnest without being rude.
Thoughtful while others are careless.
Professional always.
I wish we all had more Mary Elizabeths in our schools.
P and J
Mary Grove
July 15th, 2012
8:59 pm
I found your blog and the comments that followed very interesting. Many resounded with me and the types of experiences I have had in over 30 years of teaching. At the beginning of my teaching career, I was very thankful for innovative ideas that groups like the Red Clay Writing Project which David helped start turned me onto. Anything to get my inner city students interested in reading and writing and taking ownership in their work which I think student publications do. The last seven years I taught at a college prep charter school in Arizona. This school is publically funded using a lottery to select students. It’s true, some students can’t “afford” to go here (meaning their parents don’t choose to try and enroll them) because there is no free public transportation or lunch program; however, there is a mix of kids and the number of special needs and minority students is growing. I never have bad-mouthed our local public schools because the quality of a school is based on so many factors and I see effective programs in both as well as the pressure on teachers in both to prove their effectiveness. I don’t have a solution, but what Dr. Henson said I think is important: “For decades, most teacher professional growth plans in this country have allowed teachers to list courses they will take and PD activities they will engage in, without being required to demonstrate any connection to how those things will help their students attain proficiency.” Administrators and teachers in Arizona are struggling to identify the how test scores, observations, and professional growth activities can be used in the evaluation of teachers and schools. What rang true about the quote from Dr. Henson is the need to encourage and guide teachers to choose professional growth activities that “will help their students attain proficency.” I think that some of the professional growth instruments now being devised nationally and within various states will help teachers focus on this key issue, but teachers also need time and encouragement to hone their skills.
Pride and Joy
July 15th, 2012
9:11 pm
Truth,
You said about your ancestor that slaves weren’t free — they had to be fed and clothed…
ahhh…gee, how nice of your ancestor to feed the enslaved me and women and put some rags on them while they broke their backs and died so your cute little ancestor could wear a fluffly little puffy shirt while studying Greek.
really?
Really
e are supposed to think highly of your ancestor because he fed and clothed the slaves.
Uh, Truth, if he didn’t feed and clothe them they would die and that wouldn’t be profitable.
Do you really think we would think kindly of a slave holder for feeding adn clothing slaves? They’re SLAVES.
We can’t pick our ancestors, Truth, but we can withold from bragging about them. I am sure none of us are impressed that your ancestor signed a document while he abused men and women and their children.
So stop telling us about your stupid little ancestor, will ya?
We are not impressed.
Ving Rhames
July 15th, 2012
10:45 pm
Rags is an American hero. Haters to the left.
Truth in Moderation
July 16th, 2012
1:31 am
@Mary Elizabeth
More on Obadiah Brown and Rhode Island slave trade:
“Brown Brothers, Slave Traders and Money Laundering”
http://books.google.com/books?id=AE42gAC6ymwC&pg=PA206&lpg=PA206&dq=obadiah+brown+jewish+merchant&source=bl&ots=Nh9Cebdw0p&sig=BiQyXYtVV4L0LXFbzNPSZBRb7Ls&hl=en&sa=X&ei=y5YDUO6KCIuo8gTt-c2hCA&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=obadiah%20brown%20jewish%20merchant&f=false
see page 205
yes
July 16th, 2012
8:40 am
kudo to Mr. David Ragsdale. There are some truely good teachers out there. Tell them to stay strong and keep doing what their hearts tell them.
God Bless
Listening
July 16th, 2012
9:37 am
Public school teachers have to teach the masses. We must take them at the level they arrive, which may be levels below grade level. And, importantly, some parents make no effort to discipline or motivate their child. This is why public schools test scores are not up to private schools. If public school parents were required to be involved at their child’s school (as in private schools) achievement would rise.
Truth in Moderation
July 16th, 2012
10:51 am
@Listening
If what you say is true, then public schools should be shut down for being abysmal failures. One of the justifications of public schools is that the more prosperous can, through taxation, fund education for the less fortunate. The idea being that the school, in some way, becomes the surrogate parent and provides the discipline and guidance lacking in the home as well as educational opportunity to help them escape their lower estate. I saw this first hand when I visited Haiti on a mission trip years ago. Our group was able to observe a public elementary school “classroom”. The cinder block building was one large room with a dirt floor. The only equipment was a blackboard and chalk. The male teacher was neatly dressed, and the children had on neat uniforms, boys in slacks and girls in skirts (Haitian women never wear slacks). The students were all attentive and much learning took place through group chanting and repetition of factual knowledge. Individual students were also called on to answer questions about the day’s lessons. After seeing first hand the crushing poverty in the country (much of it brought on by U.S. meddling and support of despot rulers), I was astounded by what I saw in that classroom. Many of the students had lost both parents to AIDS and were living in orphanages or with relatives. So, what was the difference? The teacher was a Christian who cared about the children and used Biblical DISCIPLINE to teach the children and give them some hope for a brighter future. He also continued the time proven teaching method (learned from the French) of Classical instruction. Huge amounts of knowledge can be imparted cheaply and efficiently through oral and written drill and repetition of basic facts. Young children love repetition and are capable of memorizing vast amounts of information in this manner. After 4th or 5th grade, more emphasis is on applying the knowledge they already have stored in their memory. Our ancestors used this classical method, and it produced the founding documents of this nation.
Mary Elizabeth
July 16th, 2012
11:44 am
@Pride and Joy, 8:56 pm, July 15th
Thank you, very much, for your most kind remarks regarding my posts. You can be sure that your comments at 8:56 pm will be copied, pasted, and saved by yours truly!
Your words, which lifted my spirits in such a positive way, are very appreciated by me. Thank you for taking the time to express them on this thread.
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@Truth in Moderation, 8:56 pm, July 15th
Thank you for taking the time to express, to me, that you have enjoyed reading my research on Thomas Jefferson, and for sending me the additional information.
I particularly enjoyed reading your post at 3:32 pm. It was a heartfelt testimony that we, each, are complex individuals who should never be seen, simply, as a caricature of any broad and sweeping “label” of a “type” of person. Each of us has a unique story, rich in variations. The work being done at your church is truly reflective of a “beloved community” of which, I believe, both Jesus Christ and Martin Luther King, Jr. would be proud.
“Love never fails.” I Cor. 13.
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@ Maureen Downey,
Thank you for allowing me to post my extended remarks regarding Thomas Jefferson on this thread. It is my hope that we all may have broadened our understanding of one of America’s greatest presidents. As Lincoln had so eloquently said in his Gettyburg Address, it is up to us, the living, to ensure that those who gave their lives – to secure that our nation, so conceived and so dedicated to the ideal that a nation “of, by, and for” the people, shall not perish from the earth – shall not have died in vain. What a complex and rich story our nation’s history has been, and how healing this thread has been in, perhaps, mending some long-standing wounds from that rich history. I think that many of those who hold differing views from our nation’s history may have come together, on this thread, in having an honest and respectful dialogue with one another. That is what the best of education should foster. Thank you for seeing that higher goal regarding what I was trying to accomplish.
Also, I have not said this previously – but better late than never. I, too, want to thank Professor Peter Smagorinsky (as well as yourself) for bringing to the public’s attention the work of the very outstanding teacher, David Ragsdale. His talents and his commitment to his students, and community, are such an inspiration to all educators.
David, you have a beautiful career ahead which will bless so many students and families over the decades of your career, as well as bless you. I wish you the very best. You make all educators proud!
Truth in Moderation
July 16th, 2012
12:46 pm
@Pride and Joy
You have neither. Your heart is full of bitterness and hate. Much like what you accuse my ancestor of. Facts are facts. I was by no means making excuses for slavery. I was pointing out that for the English colonists, adopting slavery was initially a matter of economics (greed/self-preservation) and they would have used indentured servants if it had continued to be economically feasible. As England prospered, they became fewer and more expensive. Low land planters had a much harder time getting workers to to do the hot backbreaking work of rice farming, so when the Rhode Island slavers made African slaves readily available, they buried their conscience and bought in. My ancestors became extremely wealthy, but they also valued education. Since this is an education blog, I was pointing out the Declaration signer’s (Middleton) superior education to even Thomas Jefferson’s (also a slave plantation owner) as a matter of historical fact. Hate him or not, he was a major power player and influence on the founding of this country. Don’t forget, Dr. Martin Luther King took his inspiration for the Civil Rights movement from the Bible, the Declaration and the Constitution. Even though these “white guys” had some serious moral failings, they managed to compose freedom inspiring documents.
Now, as a citizen of this country, have you ever bought goods from China? You do know, that our ELECTED Congressmen voted to give China “Most Favored” trade status as far back as the ’90’s WHEN CHINA WAS DOCUMENTED AS USING SLAVE LABOR IN THEIR FACTORIES! America just exported its slave economy. Do YOU feel guilty about this? What have YOU done about it? Or do they not matter to you because they are far away and have a different skin color? And don’t forget the other part of the slave economy equation, the Rhode Island slave traders. The most infamous being Obadiah Brown from Providence and Aaron Lopez from Newport. They would trade rum with West Coast Africans for their slaves, and sometimes family members. Even the Africans made moral compromises to support slavery. Read all the dirty details in my above posts:
July 15th, 2012
8:56 pm
July 16th, 2012
1:31 am
Also, I have noticed the many posts on this blog, accurately pointing out the many failings of the public schools, with the teacher clearly knowing how to remedy them. They complain that they are always overruled or THREATENED WITH LOSING THEIR JOBS. I have always wondered why they did not take the moral high ground and done the right thing anyway- or just quit! It seems that most on this blog PUT THIER PAYCHECK FIRST over their students. Hmmm. That sounds familiar. For the most EGREGIOUS example of this, just look at the Sandusky case. SLAVERY AT IT’S FINEST, PUBLICLY FUNDED!
Pride and Joy
July 16th, 2012
1:46 pm
I am not impressed with your ancestor’s so-called education when it came at the expense of the very lives of real men, women and children. Bured his conscience? That’s laughable.
Your ancestor needed to put his money where is mouth was.It doens’t matter what you say. It’s what you do that counts.
Your ancestor was a wretched soul. It is not somethiing you should be proud of.
Being proud of his educaiton while knowing it came at the expense of real human beings, is the same as saying you admired Sandusky’s football prowess, knowing full well it came at the expense of the tiny little boys.
The END, Truth, does NOT justify the means.
Prof
July 16th, 2012
3:19 pm
@ Truth in Moderation. Just some more facts about the European slave-trade with West Africa. You’re wrong to claim that “even the Africans made moral compromises to support slavery.” This was Europe’s shame.
1). If the Europeans had not provided a market in the first place, Africans would not have sold anyone to them.
2) The concept of a “pan-Africa” is a 20th century concept. Pre-modern Africa consisted of territories divided into ethnic tribes. The Africans in the coastal regions sold others from different peoples in the large interior regions far away.
3) Africans in any case had no concept of CHATTEL slavery where the slave was considered property like livestock, only domestic slavery, where slaves were treated more like family servants. Nor did they have any idea of the trans-Atlantic Middle Passage faced by those they sold, or the horrors of the plantations they were going to.
4) Indentured servants had a limited period of service. Chattel slaves didn’t. The average life-expectancy for those in the Caribbean colonies from the time they got off the slave-ship was 8 years.
Please don’t use “slaves” and “slavery” rhetorically. Quite offensive to their descendents.
Truth in Moderation
July 16th, 2012
3:22 pm
@Pride and Joy
Your African ancestors who sold their kin for rum were also “wretched souls.”
The Jew and Gentile Rhode Island slave traders were “wretched souls.”
Anyone who sends their child to Brown University is a “wretched soul”.
Your education came at the expense of China slaves, so YOU are a “wretched soul” as well.
I’m still waiting to hear what YOU have done about this disgrace.
Any former slave who did not take Lincoln’s offer to go back to Africa, is a “wretched soul.”
They chose to stay in the land of their captors.
Not once did I use the word “pride” regarding Middleton’s education. I stated the facts.
Sandusky is a child molester. Sandusky had many measurable accomplishments on the football field. Those statements are facts. Pride has nothing to do with it.
It is a FACT that at least 2 SCHOOL EMPLOYEES chose their job and paycheck over RESCUING a child from molestation from Sandusky. (read the Grand Jury report). The Second Mile “charity” had the looks of an ongoing child trafficking ring. SLAVERY. SCHOOL EMPLOYEES AIDING AN ABETTING IT. Along with Sandusky, they are “wretched souls”.
Well, I guess that covers all the guilty parties, right?
Gee, there is enough evil in this world for us to be full of hate and anger for the rest of our lives, right?
And be justified, right?
Sounds good to me. The idea fills me with PRIDE AND JOY!
Truth in Moderation
July 16th, 2012
3:48 pm
@Prof
You make the perfect slavery apologist. LOL!
I’m sure you gladly purchased cheap China slave-made goods as well. After all, they were made by “different peoples in the large interior regions far away.”
Pride and Joy
July 16th, 2012
4:22 pm
Truth, I don’t have any African ancestors.I don’t know why you think that. Because I am outraged at at your justificatoin of slavery? Doesn’t make me black.
Truth, get over yourself.
You like bragging thta your ancestor signed a document.
You like bragging that your ancestor was rich.
You conveniently give your ancestor a pass for how he stole his wealth.
Your motivation is as clear as a glass of Lipton tea.
Truth in Moderation
July 16th, 2012
4:31 pm
“Because I am outraged at at your justificatoin of slavery”
Please quote where I did this.
Now, Prof definitely did this in his July 16th, 2012
3:19 pm post. Where is your outrage against him?
I am outraged at YOUR support for America’s Most Favored trade status given to the China slave trade, which has resulted in the bankruptcy of this nation, deservedly so.
YOUR SILENCE IS COMPLICITY.
Prof
July 16th, 2012
7:30 pm
@ Truth in Moderation.
Just how am I justifying the chattel slavery of the European slave-trade? I am pointing out your historical errors. You don’t seem to understand how drastically different the European concept of CHATTEL slavery was from all of the slavery that had gone before. You make the old claim that Africans were complicit because they sold others to the Europeans. But they weren’t.
Historically, countries have always enslaved the people they defeated in wars. This was true in classical Greece and Rome, and is illustrated in Homer’s “Odyssey” by the many slaves Odysseus meets who were originally foreign princes and princesses. This was true in Africa, where those defeated in wars became slaves of their victors; and being sold into slavery was often the most extreme punishment aside from execution for serious crimes.
But all of these slaves were still considered human beings. Often they intermarried with their masters (marrried, not raped as in European CHATTEL slavery). Often they shared similar customs and even languages with their masters.
When Africans sold other Africans they had just defeated in war to Europeans, they were not selling “family members” or “kin” as you stated or even fellow citizens. They sold those who were from other tribes hundreds of miles away, into what they thought would be the African-type slavery of domestic servitude. None of them could even have imagined the vast journey across the Atlantic to the Americas so far from their native lands and ancestors, or the grinding, death-dealing work of plantation slavery.
European CHATTEL slavery did not consider Africans as human, but as property such as livestock or chairs or tables. Think what that means. Human values simply are not thought relevant for these slaves, as if they were cattle. Belief that African slaves were CHATTEL had terrible consequences, both at the time and later in the South’s Jim Crow laws that treated blacks as if they were not human.
No-one considers modern Chinese laborers to be CHATTEL slaves. They may work very hard in bad conditions without being paid much, but they still are seen as human beings. You are simply using a word with a lot of emotional baggage for rhetorical purposes. But true Western slavery was more Satanic and soul-grinding than you seem to be able to imagine.
Teacher2
July 16th, 2012
7:44 pm
@Truth in Moderation
The statement that “Any former slave who did not take Lincoln’s offer to go back to Africa, is a “wretched soul. They chose to stay in the land of their captors.”
What an ignorant comment! Why are the slaves “wretched’ if they didn’t return to Africa? It doesn’t make any sense. Furthermore, the captors/Europeans did not rightfully own the “land”. The “land” truly belonged to the Native Americans (a brief history lesson). Thus, using your logic the Europeans should have joined the Africans in returning to their native land.
@ Pride and Joy
I agree with you.
@Mary Elizabeth
Jefferson’s “We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal” was hypocrisy in itself. The phrase “all men” meant exclusively white men. It did not even include white women! Jefferson’s remarks should be in full context of ACTUAL meaning and the analyzing of his ACTIONS. Words alone are hollow. The emphasis on Jefferson’s “egalitarian” views was also hypocrisy. Jefferson was again selective in that “vision”. It did not include African-Americans beyond mere words. He consistently said one thing and acted in the opposite. Jefferson was exclusive rather than inclusive on his “visions” especially regarding one’s ethnicity and gender! I judge people on their actions not their words. This is my last reply on this issue. You have firm convictions for whatever reason that don’t allow for a critical scrutinizing of him beyond mere words.
Teacher2
July 16th, 2012
7:47 pm
@ Prof
Thank you for enlightening Trurth in Moderation in your July 16th, at 7:30 pm post.
Prof
July 16th, 2012
8:11 pm
@ Truth in Moderation.
And, as Teacher 2 comments, “Why are the slaves “wretched’ if they didn’t return to Africa? It doesn’t make any sense.” Given that the African slave-trade did not cease until 1888, they could easily have been sold back into slavery if they went back!
Mary Elizabeth
July 16th, 2012
11:13 pm
Teacher2, 7:47pm
“Jefferson’s ‘We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal’ was hypocrisy in itself. The phrase ‘all men’ meant exclusively white men. It did not even include white women!”
“You have firm convictions for whatever reason that don’t allow for a critical scrutinizing of him beyond mere words.”
====================================================
Because I have not read all of the comments this evening or all of the comments on this thread, I will simply address the two remarks above.
I am old enough to remember when the word and word phrase, “all men” and “mankind,” connoted all of humanity (men and women). And I was born as late as 1942. Certainly, when our Founding Fathers (for all had to approve the words in the Declaration of Independence) used the words, “all men,” in 1776, they meant for those words to connote the generic meaning of “all humanity.”
To understand anyone in history – with wisdom – one has to understand how history evolves over time. One has to understand that “reality” is not even totally the same from one generation to the next generation, so that certainly “reality” will evolve, and also the meanings of terminology will evolve, from one century to the next century. We see only shallow images of others if we cannot imagine historical evolution in our minds and souls, not just factually with our minds. One of the reasons I wanted to share on this thread Saul Padover’s insights regarding Jefferson was that his book, “Jefferson,” was published in 1942, the year I was born. Padover was a well-respected historian who received his Ph.D. in history from the University of Chicago and he was a professor of history at the University of California and at the New School for Social Research in NYC. He had written six books on Jefferson among his 30 published books. His writings, of course, will reflect how people thought in 1942, not today, regarding African-Americans (referred to as Negroes then), before the Civil Rights movement. Padover wrote that Jefferson did not “see” slaves with the same eyes as most of the people of his (Jefferson’s) era. (See my first post to you on Jefferson yesterday.) Jefferson wanted the slaves freed and he felt that they must be freed; he simply felt that it was best for this emancipation process, that had taken years to develop, to happen as a process over some limited time, perhaps accomplished as soon as the generation after his own. I might have had another view, regarding timing, had I lived in Jefferson’s era. I do not know, for certain. I do know that I thought that desegregation should happen immediately in the South in my era, but I do not have to be in lockstep thinking with Jefferson’s thinking to appreciate his substantial value to America and her destiny.
In South Georgia during the Jim Crow Era when I was a teenager (and Jim Crow was a result of the CHATTEL slavery that Prof had mentioned), most Southerners thought that black people were less “human” than white people (a product of unenlightened thinking). However, I never “saw” black people with those eyes. I think that I, like Jefferson, have had an understanding of history as it unfolds. I do not have to agree with everything that Jefferson believed to see that he was the most dynamic force, of our nation’s founding era, to insist upon a nation based on egalitarian concepts. I would urge you to reread my third post to you on Jefferson yesterday, in which I quoted from an old Encyclopedia Brittanica, published in 1958, because that book states well (see final paragraph) Jefferson’s impact, especially over time in America, on freedom established for every person – black, white, and all others, as well as for all men and women. Jefferson knew what he was doing and what impact, centuries from his own era, his words and his policies, which he established in Virginia and in America as its third president, would have on human beings, centuries from his particular time in history, related to egalitarianism. Evidently, others, too, have recognized Jefferson’s lasting value to America, and that is why he, as well as Washington, Lincoln, Franklin Roosevelt, and now Martin Luther King, Jr., are immortalized with their own monuments on the National Mall in Washington, D.C.
It is sad, to me, that we feel sometimes that we must be in one camp or the other regarding Jefferson, instead of simply trying to see the man in full, with all of his complexity, and as a product of his era in history. I have no problem in scrutinizing Jefferson, or any other historical figure, but I would not make a major shift of my thinking, regarding him, simply on the basis of one or two posts on a public blog, but only by deep study over time, weighing especially original sources and understanding those sources in historical context. That takes more time and effort than I have to give this evening.
Let me close with sharing with you the statement that Jefferson had written to be placed in the original Declaration of Independence, but he was forced to delete that statement because the representatives from South Carolina and Georgia (who wanted to keep slavery in the new nation for financial reasons) insisted that his paragraph, below, be removed before they would sign the Declaration of Independence. Again, Jefferson is more complex in his thinking than your words show you presently understand. (The below is from the link I provided in my 3rd post to you, on Jefferson, yesterday)
“From Mr. Jefferson’s Original Draft of the Declaration of Independence.
(Jefferson had written): “He (King George III) has waged cruel war against human nature itself, violating it most sacred rights of life and liberty in the persons of a distant people who never offended him; captivating and carrying them into slavery in another hemisphere, or to incur miserable death in their transportation thither. This piratical warfare, the opprobrium of Infidel Powers, is the warfare of the Christian King of Great Britain. Determined to keep open a market where men should be bought and sold, he has prostituted his negative for suppressing every legislative attempt to prohibit or restrain this execrable commerce.”
“From Mr. Jefferson’s Minutes of Debates in 1776, on the Declaration of Independence, published with the Madison Papers:
“The clause, too, (above) reprobating the enslaving of the inhabitants of Africa was struck out, in compliance to South Carolina and Georgia, who had never attempted to restrain the importation of slaves, and who, on the contrary, still wished to continue it. Our northern brethren, also, I believe, felt a little tender under those censures; for, though their people have very few slaves themselves, yet they had been pretty considerable carriers of them to others.”
Truth in Moderation
July 17th, 2012
3:46 am
@Pride and Joy
Here’s some reading material for you:
“Many Chinese Christians in Slave Labour Camps Today
Slave Labour “Vital part of the Chinese economy”
China has a vast ‘laogai’ network of some 1100 ‘reform through labour’ prison camps. They were set up in the 1950s by Chairman Mao with Russian assistance, following the Russian gulag model. Mao had been executing intellectuals and dissidents by the hundreds of thousands until he realised condemning them to slave labour would be just as effective and certainly more productive. That continues to this day and forms a vital part of the Chinese economy.
Chinese Pastor Made A Slave For Handing Out Bibles
China Aid Association has learned that jailed Beijing Pastor Cai Zhuohua, a Protestant pastor who was given a three-year sentence for distributing Bibles (see RLP 353), has been forced to work more than 10 hours a day producing commercial ‘Made in China’ handbags since his transfer to Tianhe Prison in January 2006.
…from Christian Monitor News (link here)
Barbados Government Ignores Torture For Jesus – Gladly Accepts Chinese Slave Labour Money”
http://barbadosfreepress.wordpress.com/2006/06/28/chinese-blogger-hao-wu-arrested-after-attending-unauthorized-christian-church-barbados-government-silent-grovels-for-chinese-slave-money/
Truth in Moderation
July 17th, 2012
4:48 am
“The clause, too, (above) reprobating the enslaving of the inhabitants of Africa was struck out, in compliance to South Carolina and Georgia, who had never attempted to restrain the importation of slaves, and who, on the contrary, still wished to continue it. Our northern brethren, also, I believe, felt a little tender under those censures; for, though their people have very few slaves themselves, yet they had been pretty considerable carriers of them to others.”
@Mary Elizabeth
Do you know how Jefferson planned to implement this? By proclamation? Was his idea to cut off the slave supply in one action and just let the plantations gradually wither away? Would the government confiscate the plantations and turn them over to the slaves? Would the planters be arrested and jailed? Would the current slaves be left to fend for themselves, without land ownership? How dependent were the colonies on the plantations’ rice supply? Without income from the plantations, who would fund the war to gain freedom from Britain? The devil’s in the details. Perhaps the Georgia and South Carolina delegations were at least being honest about their dependency on a slave economy. That’s the insidiousness of the system. There is no good way out. That’s why I lobbied against the U.S. involving itself with China and their slave-made cheap goods. At least this Southerner has learned a lesson. DON’T PLAY WITH FIRE!
NWGA Teacher
July 17th, 2012
1:42 pm
Really enjoyed the article by Dr. Smagorinsky. I’m so glad everyone discussed the article so . . . thoroughly.
Prof
July 17th, 2012
1:44 pm
@ Truth in Moderation.
I’ll suggest an answer to your question addressed to Mary Elizabeth above, who may wish to suggest her own answer.
Please remember these historical facts in context: Jefferson wrote this around 1776, and his main concern was to get all 13 colonies to sign the Declaration of their independence from England. Many were very reluctant to do this and afraid of English retaliation. All the colonies had slaves, including the Northern ones. The British Abolitionist Society that began the anti-slavery movement wasn’t formed in London until 1787, and even then it was a very much a minority movement that was unthinkable to most people.
Jefferson also faced the question of how to count the colonies’ populations so as to determine the election of government representation, for the Southern colonies wanted to count their slaves. This would have assured their domination of the new government, and the continuation of slavery into any new states opening up. This was the pragmatic reason for the notorious decision to count slaves as two-thirds a man rather than a whole one.
The devil was indeed in the details, and the questions you raise were very hot ones in England when they were deciding how to emancipate all of their colonial slaves (British Emancipation Act, 1834), not just abolish the slave trade (British Abolition Act, 1807). But in 1776, Jefferson mainly wanted to get his fellow colonies to agree to rebel against the British Crown…whatever it took.
Prof
July 17th, 2012
1:54 pm
@ NWGA Teacher. Yeah. I sent out my 1:44 pm post while you were sending out your 1:42 pm post.
Everything went kind of blooey on this thread about three days ago, shortly after your July 14, 10:47 am post. We needed a gavel.
NWGA Teacher
July 17th, 2012
2:17 pm
Gavel or not, it WAS educational.
Mary Elizabeth
July 17th, 2012
6:32 pm
@Truth in Moderation, 4:48 am
“Do you know how Jefferson planned to implement this? By proclamation? Was his idea to cut off the slave supply in one action and just let the plantations gradually wither away? Would the government confiscate the plantations and turn them over to the slaves? Would the planters be arrested and jailed? Would the current slaves be left to fend for themselves, without land ownership?. . .”
============================================
You pose some excellent questions, and I feel certain that there must have been many other questions to be considered, by men and women of goodwill, in how to emancipate the slaves, which we may not have even considered in our day, regarding their situation. For instance, when I said that I did not know whether I would agree with Jefferson, or not, regarding his thoughts on the timing of the massive freeing of all slaves, I was thinking of how so many slaves might survive, especially without any education, and most without even the ability to read. Jefferson, I was reading recently, encouraged a grandchild to teach his slaves to read, but doing so was against the law and was frowned upon by those who only considered themselves and their interests and not the welfare of the slaves.Today, many believe that education, and its improvement, especially for poor children of all races and ethnic groups, is the final Civil Rights’ issue to be confronted in America.
I cannot answer your questions, above. As I had said earlier on this thread, I am neither a historian nor an expert on Jefferson, so I have no knowledge of Jefferson thinking regarding those details presented in your questions on freeing the slaves. I imagine that he gave weight to many of your thoughts, and others in his own mind, regarding the complexities involved, and all of those complications were probably why he said that the end of slavery would come in time, hopefully within the next generation, instead of immediately. He probably had not worked out all of the details in his thinking because he had so many other national responsibilities at that time and that may have been why he left the “how” regarding the process of emancipation of the slaves rather vague. I imagine he had his hands full with his responsibilities as Secretary of State, VP to John Adams, and as our third President, especially in securing the Louisiana Purchase for our nation. Then, after he left public office he centered upon public education, free state public libraries, and the establishment of the University of Virginia up until the time of his death in 1826, on July 4th – the same day and year that his old friend (and sometimes opponent), the great abolitionist, John Adams, died. I must say, here, that I believe one of the reasons that Jefferson did not free his slaves when he died, as Washington had done, was because of his debts and his feelings of responsilblity to his daughter, Martha who had to move back to Monticello with her nine children because of her unreliable and sometimes abusive husband. That is unfortunate. I am not in any way justifying Jefferson’s not freeing his slaves (except those by Sally Hemings as he had promised her if she came back to this country from France with him instead of staying in France as a freed young woman there). I would have hoped that Jefferson would have freed his slaves but perhaps some will be able to see that, even though Jefferson did not free his slaves, he nevertheless tried to shape a nation that would be able to live out the ideals of self-government and egalitarianism, in full, in time.
Prof has given some excellent details regarding the history of that day, at 1:44 pm. It occurred to me that some who may be enjoying following this discussion may be interested in learning about how the Declaration of Independence was formed from previous writings of Jefferson – something that I did not know when I was reading about him in the Encyclopedia Brittanica, 1958 version, a day or so ago. I will simply type this information from page 987, Vol. 12, in that I think some may find the following facts interesting. Also, let us never forget that it was Jefferson who, from France when the Constitution was being created in Philadelphia, insisted upon a Bill of Rights within it. That was Jefferson’s “baby,” another thing we can all thank him for today.
Page 987:
“Elected in 1774 to the first Virginia convention, called to consider the state of the colony and advance inter-colonial union, but prevented by illness from attending, he (Jefferson) sent to the convention elaborate resolutions, which he proposed as instructions to the Virginia delegates to the Continental Congress that was to meet at Philadelphia in September. In the direct language of reproach and advice, these resolutions attacked the supremacy of Parliament and the errors of the king (with no disingenuous loading of the Crown’s policy upon its agents), maintaining that ‘the relation between Great Britain and these colonies was exactlly the same as that of England and Scotland after the accession of James and until the Union; and that our emigration to this country gave England no more rights over us than the emigration of the Danes and Saxons gave to the present authorities of their mother country over England.’ This was cutting at the common root of allegiance, emigration and colonization; but such radicalism was too thorough-going for the immediate end. The resolutions were published, however, as a pamphlet, entitled ‘A Summary View of the Rights of America,’ which was of immense influence. In England, after receiving such modifications – attributed to Burke – as adapted it to the purposes of the opposition, this pamphlet ran through many editions, and procured for its author, as he said, ‘the honour of having his name inserted in a long list of proscriptions enrolled in a bill of attainder commenced in one of the two houses of parliament, but suppressed in embryo by the hasty course of events.’ It placed Jefferson among the foremost leaders of revolution, and procured for him the honour of drafting, later, the Declaration of Independence, whose historical portions were, in large part, only a revised transcript of the ‘Summary View.’ In June 1775 he took his seat in the Continental Congress, taking with him fresh credentials of radicalism in the shape of Virginia’s answer, which he had drafted, to Lord North’s conciliatory propositions. He soon drafted the reply of Congress to the same propositions. Reappointed to the next Congress, he signalized his service by the authorship of the Declaration of Independence. Again reappointed, he surrendered his seat, and after refusing a proffered election to serve as a commissioner with Benjamin Franklin and Silas Deane in France, he re-entered in Oct. 1776 the Virginia legislature, where he considered his services most needed.”
Pride and Joy
July 17th, 2012
8:08 pm
Now, Truth, you keep referring to China’s slave trade as if I’ve been living under a rock somewhere…
YES! There is slavery in China today, Truth. YES! Some of us can read a newspaper as well as your so-called educated grandpappy.
but here’s the thing…it doesn’t make your grandpappy any less guilty.
You also keep asking me what am I doing about China’s slave trade.
What are you doing about it?
You can go on mission trips all you want. How does that make the slave trade better?
Pride and Joy
July 17th, 2012
9:57 pm
To Mary Elizabeth, (Jsut FYI because I know you are interested…I found this info that answers your question…From….
http://www.monticello.org/site/plantation-and-slavery/thomas-jefferson-and-sally-hemings-brief-account
Thomas Jefferson freed all of Sally Heming’s children, which are believed to be his.
•Sally Hemings’s children were light-skinned, and three of them (daughter Harriet and sons Beverly and Eston) lived as members of white society as adults.
•Thomas Jefferson freed all of Sally Hemings’s children: Beverly and Harriet were allowed to leave Monticello in 1822; Madison and Eston were released in Jefferson’s 1826 will. Jefferson gave freedom to no other nuclear slave family.
P and J
N. GA Teacher
July 18th, 2012
1:08 am
Ragsdale sounds like a great faculty member. Kudos to the prof. for the story. The best teachers I had in high school were those that were interesting, student-oriented, and challenged us to think critically. Of course, in those days, the only standardized tests were the ACT and SAT. Teachers were treated in a professional manner that respected their judgement of student performance and were backed by administrators. As for all those Ph.Ds who cannot find work, I feel bad for them. It is extremely demoralizing to have gone to college 10 years or so and then be told that no jobs exist. It has been this way for 35 years or so for MOST Ph.Ds, especially in the liberal arts and sciences. However do NOT expect these people to teach in the public K-12 realm. Why? First, many have research as their goal, not teaching. Second, most lack certification, including that most crucial element, student teaching in public schools. Many Ph.Ds come from upper-middle class backgrounds and might do OK at private schools but flounder or experience tremendous frustration with classroom management problems, especially at lower SES public schools. Ph.Ds, like other non-education professionals who try public school teaching, are likely to be taken aback by some of the school culture idioms, such as signing in, not being allowed to leave for lunch, having to do bus duty, lunch duty, or check on bathrooms, not allowed travel money for professional meetings, etc. or being taken to task for something they said that “offended someone”. Last, during this time of budget crunching, public schools could be reluctant to hire Ph.Ds who will be at the top of their salary scales. What many are looking for are bachelor’s degreed, certified (with low-SES student teaching experience) candidates with experience.
FYI
July 18th, 2012
10:26 am
@ Pride and Joy. Your source is a very suspect one, for it’s the official website for Monticello, Jefferson’s plantation house and a tourist attraction. This “info” you note comes from the report of the Tomas Jefferson Research Committee, hardly unbiased.
Mary Elizabeth
July 18th, 2012
1:42 pm
Pride and Joy, 9:57 pm, July 17, 2012
Thank you for the website. You, and other readers, may be interested in reading the direct words of one of Thomas Jefferson’s sons with Sally Hemings, Madison Hemings, which will confirm what you have stated. (It should be noted that I have previously provided information that stated that Jefferson also freed three of his older male slaves in his will.) Madison Hemings was 68 years old when he related the following information regarding his father, Thomas Jefferson, to S. F. Wetmore. His memoirs were published by Ohio’s Pike County Republican, in 1873. Madison Hemings died in 1877. I want to point out that – about midway through the excerpt of Madison Hemings memoirs which I have highlighted below – Madison Hemings says that “He (Jefferson) was uniformly kind to all about him.”
See below the excerpt which I have lifted from Madison Hemings memoirs. The link at the end gives his memoirs, in full, as they were published in 1873.
——————————————————————————————-
“Thos. Jefferson was a visitor at the ‘great house’ of John Wales, who had children about his own age. He formed the acquaintance of his daughter Martha (I believe that was her name, though I am not positively sure,) and intimacy sprang up between them which ripened into love, and they were married. They afterwards went to live at his country seat Monticello, and in course of time had born to them a daughter whom they named Martha. About the time she was born my mother, the second daughter of John Wales and Elizabeth Hemings was born. On the death of John Wales, my grandmother, his concubine, and her children by him fell to Martha, Thomas Jefferson’s wife, and consequently became the property of Thomas Jefferson, who in the course of time became famous, and was appointed minister to France during our revolutionary troubles, or soon after independence was gained. About the time of the appointment and before he was ready to leave the country his wife died, and as soon after her interment as he could attend to and arrange his domestic affairs in accordance with the changed circumstances of his family in consequence of this misfortune (I think not more than three weeks thereafter) he left for France, taking his eldest daughter with him. He had sons born to him, but they died in early infancy, so he then had but two children–Martha and Maria. The latter was left home, but afterwards was ordered to follow him to France. She was three years or so younger than Martha. My mother accompanied her as a body servant. When Mr. Jefferson went to France Martha was just budding into womanhood. Their stay (my mother’s and Maria’s) was about eighteen months. But during that time my mother became Mr. Jefferson’s concubine, and when he was called back home she was ‘enciente’ by him. He desired to bring my mother back to Virginia with him but she demurred. She was just beginning to understand the French language well, and in France she was free, while if she returned to Virginia she would be re-enslaved. So she refused to return with him. To induce her to do so he promised her extraordinary privileges, and made a solemn pledge that her children should be freed at the age of twenty-one years. In consequence of his promise, on which she implicitly relied, she returned with him to Virginia. Soon after their arrival, she gave birth to a child, of whom Thomas Jefferson was the father. It lived but a short time. She gave birth to four others, and Jefferson was the father of all of them. Their names were Beverly, Harriet, Madison (myself), and Eston–three sons and one daughter. We all became free agreeably to the treaty entered into by our parents before we were born. We all married and have raised families.
Beverly left Monticello and went to Washington as a white man. He married a white woman in Maryland, and their only child, a daughter, was not known by the white folks to have any colored blood coursing in her veins. Beverly’s wife’s family were people in good circumstances.
Harriet married a white man in good standing in Washington City, whose name I could give, but will not, for prudential reasons. She raised a family of children, and so far as I know they were never suspected of being tainted with African blood in the community where she lived or lives. I have not heard from her for ten years, and do not know whether she is dead or alive. She thought it to her interest, on going to Washington, to assume the role of a white woman, and by her dress and conduct as such I am not aware that her identity as Harriet Hemings of Monticello has ever been discovered.
Eston married a colored woman in Virginia, and moved from there to Ohio, and lived in Chillicothe several years. In the fall of 1852 he removed to Wisconsin, where he died a year or two afterwards. He left three children.
As to myself, I was named Madison by the wife of James Madison, who was afterwards President of the United States. Mrs. Madison happened to be at Monticello at the time of my birth, and begged the privilege of naming me, promising my mother a fine present for the honor. She consented, and Mrs. Madison dubbed me by the name I now acknowledge, but like many promises of white folks to the slaves she never gave my mother anything. I was born at my father’s seat of Monticello, in Albemarle county, Va., near Charlottesville, on the 18th day of January, 1805. My very earliest recollections are of my grandmother Elizabeth Hemings. That was when I was about three years old. She was sick and upon her death bed. I was eating a piece of bread and asked if she would have some. She replied: ‘No, granny don’t want bread any more.’ She shortly afterwards breathed her last. I have only a faint recollection of her.
Of my father, Thomas Jefferson, I knew more of his domestic than his public life during his life time. It is only since his death that I have learned much of the latter, except that he was considered as a foremost man in the land, and held many important trusts, including that of President. I learned to read by inducing the white children to teach me the letters and something more; what else I know of books I have picked up here and there till now I can read and write. I was almost 21 1/2 years of age when my father died on the 4th of July, 1826.
About his own home he was the quietest of men. He was hardly ever known to get angry, though sometimes he was irritated when matters went wrong, but even then he hardly ever allowed himself to be made unhappy any great length of time. Unlike Washington he had but little taste or care for agricultural pursuits. He left matters pertaining to his plantations mostly with his stewards and overseers. He always had mechanics at work for him, such as carpenters, blacksmiths, shoemakers, coopers, &c. It was his mechanics he seemed mostly to direct, and in their operations he took great interest. Almost every day of his later years he might have been seen among them. He occupied much of the time in his office engaged in correspondence and reading and writing. His general temperament was smooth and even; he was very undemonstrative. He was uniformly kind to all about him. He was not in the habit of showing partiality or fatherly affection to us children. We were the only children of his by a slave woman. He was affectionate toward his white grandchildren, of whom he had fourteen, twelve of whom lived to manhood and womanhood. His daughter Martha married Thomas Mann Randolph by whom she had thirteen children. Two died in infancy. The names of the living were Ann, Thomas Jefferson, Ellen, Cornelia, Virginia, Mary, James, Benj. Franklin, Lewis Madison, Septemia and Geo. Wythe. Thos. Jefferson Randolph was Chairman of the Democratic National Convention in Baltimore last spring which nominated Horace Greeley for the Presidency, and Geo. Wythe Randolph was Jeff. Davis’ first Secretary of War in the late ‘unpleasantness.’
Maria married John Epps, and raised one son–Francis.
My father generally enjoyed excellent health. I never knew him to have but one spell of sickness, and that was caused by a visit to the Warm Springs in 1818. Till within three weeks of his death he was hale and hearty, and at the age of 83 years walked erect and with a stately tread. I am now 68, and I well remember that he was a much smarter man physically, even at that age, than I am.
When I was fourteen years old I was put to the carpenter trade under the charge of John Hemings, the youngest son of my grandmother. His father’s name was Nelson, who was an Englishman. She had seven children by white men and seven by colored men–fourteen in all. My brothers, sister Harriet and myself, were used alike. We were permitted to stay about the ‘great house,’ and only required to do such light work as going on errands. Harriet learned to spin and to weave in a little factory on the home plantation. We were free from the dread of having to be slaves all our lives long, and were measurably happy. We were always permitted to be with our mother, who was well used. It was her duty, all her life which I can remember, up to the time of father’s death, to take care of his chamber and wardrobe, look after us children and do such light work as sewing, and Provision was made in the will of our father that we should be free when we arrived at the age of 21 years. We had all passed that period when he died but Eston, and he was given the remainder of
his time shortly after. He and I rented a house and took mother to live with us, till her death, which event occurred in 1835.”
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jefferson/cron/1873march.html
Hannah and John
July 18th, 2012
4:26 pm
HI RAGSSSSSSSSSS we LUV you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
FYI
July 18th, 2012
6:41 pm
So Thomas Jefferson did not free his all of his children by Sally Hemings at 21 although he had “made a solemn pledge” to her that he would. Madison plus his two older siblings were not freed until Jefferson died, when Madison was 21 years and a half. During the entire time Jefferson kept them all as house slaves, including their mother Sally; except for Madison, who was a carpenter.
Madison was named by house-guest Dolly Madison, wife of future President James Madison who promised Sally “a fine present” if she consented; but “like many promises of white folks to the slaves she never gave my mother anything.”
Madison only learned to read because he asked some white children to teach him the rudiments, and he picked up the rest from books on his own.
Jefferson was “undemonstrative” to his slave children, though “affectionate” to his white grandchildren.
He sure sounds like a typical slave-owner of the period.
Mary Elizabeth
July 18th, 2012
7:28 pm
@FYI, 6:41 pm
When the freed slave, Madison Hemings, chooses to have recorded for posterity – at age 68, four years before his own death and nearly a half century after the death of his father, Thomas Jefferson – that his father “was uniformly kind to all about him,” then, no, Thomas Jefferson does not “sound like a typical slave-owner of the period.” Hemings words’ confirm that fact, from beyond the grave, for any who choose to see with heart, as well as with mind.
Dr. Proud Black Man
July 18th, 2012
10:11 pm
“A man who will enslave his own blood, may not be safely relied on for magnamity.”
Frederick Douglass, My Bondage and My Freedom.
Have a blessed evening Ms. Mary.