New report: Southern states should rethink raising class size in early grades
If every school in the country reduced class size by even one student, the annual cost would be $10 billion. (AJC file)
There is still a great deal of debate around whether smaller classes are worth the high cost. The Southern Regional Education Board takes on the topic in a new report, noting that it would cost more than $10 billion a year if schools nationwide reduced average class size by even one student.
The report, “Smart Class-Size Policies for Lean Times,” says that the public, when given a choice between “smaller classes with average-performing teachers” and “larger classes with better-than-average teachers,” emphatically chose better teachers over smaller classes.
The report also notes that it is difficult to get a true handle on class size and student-teacher ratios because “many states count personnel other than full-time instructors (such as guidance counselors, librarians, paraprofessionals and administrators) in the student teacher ratio. The result is looser and less rigorous than the strict average calculation.”
The report concludes: Some policy-makers and education leaders may be tempted to increase class size to cut costs. If cost cutting is the only goal, they should focus on the point in the K-12 pipeline where class-size reduction has not yet proven necessary to support academic performance — high school.
But SREB cautions that there are risks to raising class sizes in the early grades: Research clearly shows that students benefit most from smaller classes in the early grades, especially kindergarten through grade three.
The report references Georgia policy, noting that Georgia Gov. Sonny Perdue asked the state Board of Education to grant districts any class-size waiver requests it considered “reasonable” for the 2008-2009 and 2009-2010 school years. The statewide waiver has been renewed by the Board each year since and now extends through the 2012- 2013 school year.
Here is the official release:
A new report from the Southern Regional Education Board says that even when budgets are tight, states should protect smaller classes in the early grades and study the effects of larger classes on student achievement.
Research shows that students perform better in small classrooms, especially in kindergarten through third grade, according to “Smart Class-Size Policies for Lean Times.”
Yet shrinking class sizes is one of the most expensive education initiatives for states: Reducing average class size by even one student could cost the nation more than $10 billion per year. In Florida, a statewide class-size reduction policy cost nearly $22 billion over a nine-year period.
In the 1980s, SREB states, led by Tennessee and Texas, spearheaded policies to limit the number of students in public K-12 classrooms. The K-12 student-teacher ratio dropped over two decades by nearly three students in SREB states and by almost two students nationally.
In recent years, some states have altered their class-size policies as they weighed their cost effectiveness during lean times. About a third of all states — including 10 SREB states — permit waivers to provide flexibility. Florida adjusted its list of core courses, and Texas sought to move from caps to averages.
The SREB policy brief recommends that if states must consider enlarging class sizes to save money, they should:
•Consider the state’s record of student performance along with their current fiscal condition.
•Base change on research about impact on student achievement and teacher effectiveness.
•Require schools to monitor individual student achievement at any grade level where they enlarge classes.
•Factor in effectiveness of classroom teachers and how they assess it.
•Maintain smaller classes pre-K through third grade and for groups of students at risk of academic failure.
•Keep the public informed of any changes.
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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67 comments Add your comment
Disgruntled
June 15th, 2012
5:30 am
How about making public education a privilege, not a right? One reason private and charter schools do so well (not the only reason, but one significant reason) is that they can ask kids to leave.
Elizabeth
June 15th, 2012
5:33 am
Class size matters.It matters at all grade levels. No matter what the research says, the more students you have, the less individual attention you can give. More papers to grade mean fewer assignments and assignments that are easier to grade. We do the best we can, but even in the higher grades, kids today are high maintenance. I had 35 kids in all my classes all the way through school. but times and kids have changed. Anyone who thinks classs size does not affect learning has not talked to the professionals who know better: the teachers. But that’s nothing new, especially today. Why would you listen to the ones who actually teach the kids?
Dr. Craig Spinks/ Georgians for Educational Excellence
June 15th, 2012
6:18 am
If we want kids to learn to read, in the word of Sister Mary Brigid, R.S.M., it “behooves” us to have low student-teacher ratios in the early grades.
TimeOut
June 15th, 2012
6:58 am
I can mark only so many essays in an evening. I can work only so many 10 and 12 hour days while listening to others rant that I have too much time off in June and July. We can keep class sizes lower. Or, we can exclude those who choose to disrupt, those who choose to resist an education, etc. I can mark more essays, provide more one-on-one assistance, and do an overall better job if I don’t have to write lesson plans for others’ use in career-building, instead of my use in instruction. I can do a better job if I don’t have to “collaborate” with myself, as the only teacher of my subject, and produce a weekly or monthly “collaboration report” that means absolutely nothing. I can research options for reaching all the struggling students if I don’t have to spend my time on the phone explaining to Mrs. Sociopath that her student cannot abuse me or others and receive a prize for it. I don’t want to be a policeman. I don’t want to be a nurse. I don’t want to be a social worker. I am willing to assume these roles from time to time as necessary. It becomes deterimental to my role as a teacher when these other roles preclude my primary one; it happens too frequently. We’ve instilled an air of entitlement in our children because we have one ourselves. Too many of them have learned too well that it’s not what you know but who you know that leads to socioeconomic success. Too many of them have learned that ethical living carries a price tag that most are unwilling to pay. As a nation, we don’t make decisions that show that we value our survival from generation to generation nearly as much as we value comfort and convenience. It’s not the 1% or the 99%. It’s the 100%.
Jordan Kohanim
June 15th, 2012
7:27 am
TimeOut- Beautifully said!
ScienceTeacher671
June 15th, 2012
7:39 am
I agree; class size matters at all grade levels.
I do think it’s ironic that the very best private schools use their extremely small class sizes (often 15 students or less) as a marketing tool, but class size is presumed not to matter in public schools.
carlosgvv
June 15th, 2012
7:41 am
TimeOut’s comments indicate what most educators know but cannot say for job security reasons. A teacher must work with the students he/she gets. If many are from low-class thug homes and have low IQ,s, quality teaching will be next to impossible. Add to that the facts of trying to impose any disicpline when faced with the dual threats of being called racist and dealing with a locust swarm of trial lawyers.
Long time educator
June 15th, 2012
7:47 am
In tight budget times, we need to look at all the professionals receiving a paycheck who are not actually working with children. Could their jobs be consolidated or eliminated? Is there senseless paperwork that Time-Out mentions that could be eliminated and perhaps the job of the one requiring it to justify his job? Even in an elementary school there are about equal numbers of resource teachers and homeroom teachers. Could we take the number of kids and divide it by the total number of Teachers, resource or not, and achieve a much lower teacher/student ratio for some parts of the day to do tutoring or remedial work? We need to take the personnel we have and make more efficient use of them. Some of the district folks need to at least go back to being building administrators when there is a vacancy, which is a much tougher job that the cushy one that have now. We have too many chiefs and not enough Indians. If we need to save money, start with these folks and do not make the life of the hardest working people in the system, homeroom teachers, even harder.
dc
June 15th, 2012
8:13 am
let’s see, wasn’t it just yesterday that the blog discussed how many times “educrats” create a “crisis in education”, and then magically offer to resolve it if the taxpayers just spend a little more. For many years, classes had much larger numbers of students, and did just fine.
The issue really seems to me to come down to one thing….get the very small number of kids, that are causing trouble and taking up a disproportionate amount of the teachers attention (to the detriment of the other students), OUT of that class room. A decent teacher can manage much larger classes that 20-24 kids, if they aren’t having to deal with the discipline issues of a couple.
dekalbite
June 15th, 2012
8:27 am
Large class sizes do not attract good teachers. I have never met a good teacher who says class size does not matter. Nor have I ever met a good teacher who says he would prefer a larger class size. Every good teacher I know prefers smaller class sizes. That is why many good teachers gradually migrate to systems and schools that offer smaller class sizes.
How will you retain good teachers if you pack their classes with 30 or 35 students? The answer is you won’t. Retaining good teachers is critical to the success of our students.
William Casey
June 15th, 2012
8:28 am
A MODEST PROPOSAL: Although it wouldn’t entirely solve the problem of rising class sizes, I suggest that every single certified professional employed by the school system, from Superintendent on down, should teach at least one academic class per semester. This would have the added benefit of keeping those in “leadership” positions current with the challenges of academic teaching.
BTW, when appointed Dean at Chattahoochee HS in 1993, I volunteered to do exactly this in order to set an example. No extra pay. My principal, of course, turned me down. After all, can’t have the Mandarins hobnobbing with the riff-raff.
William Casey
June 15th, 2012
8:32 am
A nice aspect of my 8:28 proposal is that it would cost ZERO extra hard-earned taxpayer dollars.
Tony
June 15th, 2012
8:32 am
TimeOut hits the nail on the head!
dc-It’s politicians and business leaders manufacturing the crisis in education not “educrats” as you call them.
MS-Science-Teacher
June 15th, 2012
8:36 am
I agree with DC. Its the same kids who’s same behavior in most every class that you redirect every day taking up an inordinate amount of your time at the expense of the students who know how to behave in class.
NTLB
June 15th, 2012
8:48 am
Class size doesn’t matter—our country’s value and views towards public education is what truly matters. Students in countries such as Finlasnd, Singapore, and Japan are outperforming our students and are sitting in equally or large sized classes. Furthermore, only their top performing college graduates are recruited to teach in these respective countries. Class management is more feasible, because respect towards teachers/adults is embedded and supported in their society.
The difference is that their teachers are not viewed or treated as second class citizens. Their parents do not interfere or challenge the teacher’s instructional practices, teachers’ salaries are competitive with those of other professions, they have strong teacher unions, and the teaching status is highly regarded in their culture.
But most importantly, their leaders do not exert political attacks or have negative political agendas twoards education and the teaching profession.
Csoby
June 15th, 2012
8:53 am
Still wonder wehre the Parents responsibility comes into play. Education starts in the home…but wait, we do not have homes anymore, only government can raise the kids…and for some, they do not even know where or who their daddy is…Schools reflect the crumbling of the US society, and until we reverse that trend, Schools and the teachers unions are worthless
Solutions
June 15th, 2012
9:00 am
Class size is already half the size from when I attended a below average public school system, yet student performance is lower today than it was in 1970. As a property owner, I resent the ever increasing property taxes I have to pay to maintain our sub standard school systems. As long as the bill can be sent to other people, the education groupies will urge more spending on dubious plans for improvement. Education from K-College is a racket today, a place to hide surplus labor in order to keep the official unemployment numbers lower than what is fact. We now have a Trillion dollar student loan bubble, and cries for “loan forgiveness.” The young want to take their “loan forgiveness” out of entitlements for the older generation, specifically from Social Security. Yet the youth of today have produced no wealth, they are consumers of other people’s work. They study at expensive schools (they are all expensive today) but only want to put in half the effort of past generations (15 hours study time per week vs over 25 hours for past generations). I have no sympathy for the young, or for their teachers, or the education groupies. I do have much sympathy for property owners who are footing the bill, and for those of us who have paid CASH money for out social security benefits, the very benefits the youth of today want to steal.
Beck
June 15th, 2012
9:11 am
@ TimeOut – Amen – preach it!!!
@ Jordan – Miss you!!!
For all of those of you who propose that we get disruptive, apathetic and slow learners out of the classroom, WHERE do you propose to put them and WHAT do you want them to do? Alternative schools, tech schools and prisons all cost taxpayer dollars too.
Friday Reading List: NOLA Teach For America Leader May Have To Give Up State Board Seat
June 15th, 2012
9:13 am
[...] A new report urges Southern states to consider raising class size so long as the classes are headed by good teachers. (AJC) [...]
A Conservative Voice
June 15th, 2012
9:18 am
Y’all know what I think?……Naw, you probably don’t want to hear it, but I’ll tell you anyway…….”the administrations (DCSS) of the past thirty years have screwed things up so bad that they’ll never get back to where they were”……..and that’s a fact, jack. Remember to VOTE RESPONSIBLY on July 31st
LongTime Teacher
June 15th, 2012
9:19 am
We would have money for low class size if we would get rid of nonessential personnel. Don’t be fooled…….. DeKalb has not gotten rid of people from Central Office……. They have just moved them to the schoolhouse. Right now we have one at our school cleaning files and putting books on shelves for summer work. Bet she is still making more money than a teacher. I will be so mad when I walk into that school in August and see her there when they have gotten rid of so many good teachers and raised class size.
teacher&mom
June 15th, 2012
9:29 am
” yet student performance is lower today than it was in 1970″
Can you provide any proof for that statement?
teacher&mom
June 15th, 2012
9:30 am
Is there any public school district in GA that has NOT increased class size?
Solutions
June 15th, 2012
9:36 am
Teacher&mom – Do your own literature review, I will only offer this: SAT scores were considerable higher in 1970 than today. You can look up SAT scores on your own, or is that beyond you capabilities?
Solutions
June 15th, 2012
9:39 am
Remember the SAT for 1970 was based only on verbal and math, so a perfect score was 1600. Here is a link: http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d04/tables/dt04_129.asp
teacher&mom
June 15th, 2012
9:40 am
@William Casey: Your proposal is excellent and would solve many issues.
Give them an EOCT course with a diverse group of students, expect them to show proof of differentiation, turn in lesson plans/frameworks, and pour over their test scores. Make sure their class size is filled to the max. Grill them in a “data analysis” session and demand they justify why they did not have a 100% passing rate. (Most of the admin in my system are “pre-NCLB)
Also, have every administrator serve as a Teacher-as-Advisor. Let them take on a group of 25-30 students and keep up with the paperwork.
If the administrator has special education certification, require they write IEP’s or 504 plans and keep up with the paperwork required to monitor the IEP/504.
Your suggestion is indeed a fine suggestion and has the power to bring about meaningful change in education.
teacher&mom
June 15th, 2012
9:42 am
@Solutions: What percentage of students were taking the SAT in 1970 as compared to today?
Solutions
June 15th, 2012
9:44 am
teacher&mom – That is your research assignment, not mine, look it up!
Pauline
June 15th, 2012
9:46 am
Great discussion! I’ve started a discussion on my blog about reforming education: 32in32.com
I have some ideas for change, but as a public education teacher, I can only change what happens in my classroom and offer a forum for discussion.
catlady
June 15th, 2012
9:48 am
Aw, any teacher who can’t teach 30 first graders(one third of whom come from nonEnglish speaking homes, and one third from homes of functionally illiterate adults) how to read in a room designed for 20 should be fired! After all, when we went to school we have 46 in each first grade class and we done jest fine!
teacher&mom
June 15th, 2012
9:57 am
@Solutions: I didn’t make the claim and then refuse to back up my words with cold, hard data.
Asking a blogger for proof to back their claims is a litmus test. Those who know what they are talking about can provide research, those who can’t provide any proof either go away, toss the ball back into my court, or resort to name-calling.
Eyes Rolling
June 15th, 2012
10:00 am
The problem isn’t the number of kids in the classroom, the problem is the low I.Q. number of the adult in front of them.
To paraphrase P.J. O’Rourke, “If you want to know what’s wrong with the schools, all you have to do is date an El-Ed major.”
Nikole
June 15th, 2012
10:01 am
@ Solutions— I would like for you to recognize that teaching in 1970 is NOTHING like teaching in 2012. I was in elementary school in the 80’s and even that is NOTHING like it is now. My teacher did not teach special ed students in her general ed classroom (I do). Not one of my classmates cursed my teacher out. ( I have been, many times, I teach 1st grade). My teacher did not have to do stacks of impossible paperwork in order to retain kids. ( I have to.) My teacher did not have any students that couldn’t speak English ( I’ve had them) None of my classmates, bit, hit, scratched, punched my teacher. (I’ve experienced ALL of the above) My teacher wasn’t harassed about having a proper standards board posted in the room to prove that she was teaching the standards. (What a waste of my administrator’s time it is to check for these boards each month) The list goes on and on and on.
teacher&mom
June 15th, 2012
10:01 am
I teach high school. For me the tipping point in class size is around 28-30. If it is an inclusion class, the tipping point is even lower.
My classes will average around 30-35 next year and my largest classes will be inclusion classes.
catlady
June 15th, 2012
10:02 am
Wm. Casey: I think you and I have agreed on that here. Until 1988, I had a principal (no asst principal) who taught a class every day–7th grade math. It was the best thing he could do! It kept him current in what was going on, and he was an excellent teacher–the kids thrived! Very occasionally he would have to be out and would find someone to fill in, but he really guarded that time and let the CO know he couldn’t come in for meetings then. I think EVERY single administrator needs to do that, OR rotate back into the classroom for 2 years after 5 years in administration. Things would be FAR, FAR different.
Personal experience: In 1982 I had a class of 33 kindergarteners. I watched as they came up through school. Of the 33, 6 ended up being held back (back when we did that) and of the 33, only 22 graduated from high school. (3 moved away)
In 1986 I was slated to have 32 kindergarteners. Luckily the powers that be decided NOT to do that again–the class was divided in half. Of those 16/16 classes, all but 4 graduated. (2 moved away)
Coincidence? I really doubt it. And that was back before we had such troubled kids!
Cobb Taxpayer
June 15th, 2012
10:05 am
The class size issue is fueled by lack of funding – with almost 10 years of “austerity cuts” . The Gold Dome brain trust created the class size waiver because they underfunded QBE. There are still many state mandates that are not funded – local districts make due but now the reality of the dropping local property tax disgest and skrinking reserves – something has got to give ! My thought is the effort should go into reducing the number of “options” or electives that usally continue to maintain lower class sizes. Stick to the core ! OBama Race to the Top is not the answer – just chains of regulations from a failed D.C. department of education – what happened to abolishing the federal DOE ?
catlady
June 15th, 2012
10:05 am
Is it worth the cost to have smaller classes? In the short run, probably not. But when you factor in the dropout cost, yes, it is. Pay for it on the front end or THROUGH the rear end, I always say.
I may also note I have never had a problem with SREBs research.
Jefferson
June 15th, 2012
10:08 am
Capacity must be expanded for production to be effeicient. Cost increases should be shared by a business tax as they will benefit from an educated job pool.
Paulo977
June 15th, 2012
10:10 am
catlady
After all, when we went to school we have 46 in each first grade class and we done jest fine!
_____________________________________
you really DONE?
catlady
June 15th, 2012
10:20 am
Yes, Paulo, TIC.
catlady
June 15th, 2012
10:23 am
Jefferson, why should our businesses pay for increased educational expense HERE? Why not just send the money to India? That seems to be where many of “our” jobs are!
Lee
June 15th, 2012
10:23 am
@WmCasey, my youngest daughter’s principal in private school did just that. The middle school principal was a former math teacher and he taught one class per semester. The Headmaster at the high school also taught, but on a “substitute” basis. He would go in and teach a class which allowed the teacher some free time to catch up on other things.
The benefit is that they got to know the students on a personal basis and vice versa. They were no longer “that guy on the intercom.”
exteacher
June 15th, 2012
10:24 am
No stats to prove it, but as a elementary teacher for 30 years, I can tell you class size matters for students and teachers for all of the reasons mentioned in the previous posts. I found that 24 seemed to the limit before one had to start sacrificing on quality, and less than that if you wanted to do a quality job. At the crowded level you start to lose students. You lose the bottom who need extra help, the top who get bored, and the special students who need something else. I am sad to say my own children attend a private school at this point. The ratio of 3/24 sounded much better than 29/1 at the local elementary. You can only stretch resources so far.
I like the idea of clearing out the central office in DeKalb to actually produce some results. There will be no resolution to their issues unless they do so.
Lots of good posts here, I like this column better when it is civil.
another aps teacher
June 15th, 2012
11:19 am
Class size matters. If the students are all on grade level, all come from stable, normal, two parent families where both parents are college educated and the breadwinner earns enough for the other parent to stay at home then class size can actually be a little larger. But a little larger really maxes out at about 25 students per class and that is in grades five and up. I think the ideal class size is 16-20, with the more capable students in the largest classes. If you have students who are products of homes where everyone is functionally illiterate, there is drug abuse, one or more parents are missing, anyone at all is mentally ill, the students themselves have attention deficit disorder or learning disabilities, or any other condition that entrenches them firmly in the lower tier of Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs then they really can’t handle a classroom of more than 15-16 students. The students in the latter group are too needy to have to split the teacher’s attention with too many other children. And more students fall into the latter group than the former.
Another view
June 15th, 2012
11:19 am
“smaller classes with average-performing teachers” and “larger classes with better-than-average teachers,” Nothing about learning outcomes. It is all about perception and money.
Solutions
June 15th, 2012
11:22 am
Teacher&mom, I provided proof of the first claim you challenged, after which you wanted proof of YOUR allegation that more people are taking the SAT now than in 1970. It is your allegation, not mine.
Solutions
June 15th, 2012
11:31 am
I support abolishing the Federal Department of Education, and the entire federal student loan program. We should end all federal meddling into education, it is properly a State and local issue. Remember, every area of our economy the Feds “support” has lower performance and higher costs. Housing is a disaster, health care is a disaster (Medicaid in Georgia faces a 300 million dollar deficit, with massive Federally mandated increases by 2014). Even foreign relations, the heart of any Central governments responsibilities, is a very costly disaster (think Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Iran, and the rapid cooling trend in the so called cold war with Russia and China). We need less of Washington, not more.
Double Zero Eight
June 15th, 2012
11:33 am
Georgia has a problem, and it is much deeper
than class size, and the quality of teachers.
We have ranked in the bottom five states for
the past two decades, for most of the educational
measurements.
I do not know the root cause for this, and neither
do our educators or poltiicians (apparently).The
rhetoric and money associated with education in GA
have proven to be exercises in futility.
Solutions
June 15th, 2012
11:37 am
Eight – Until we give the teachers IQ tests, we will not know for certain that they are the problem, but I suspect that is the case. The higher achieving schools in the metro area have higher IQ teachers (and students), on average. That is my claim, but until we IQ test the teachers, we will not know for sure.
irisheyes
June 15th, 2012
11:59 am
Boy, it sure didn’t take long for someone to insult the intelligence of teachers. Obviously, that’s the problem, because nothing else about American society has changed in the last 40 years.
wheelermom
June 15th, 2012
12:09 pm
FWIW – I know what Twain said about “lies, damn lies, and statistics” but according to Ed Week’s Quality Counts 2012, Georgia ranks 7th. Not 47th.
http://www.edweek.org/ew/qc/2012/16src.h31.html?intc=EW-QC12-CTR
From another perspective – my property taxes are RIDICULOUSLY low (<$1000/yr )when compared to my family in Massachusetts ($2500/year) and New Hampshire ($3500) – comparably valued homes, BTW. Yet, I feel like my children (now done, '05 & '09) got a better education here in Cobb than my nieces and nephews up north (some still in school, some from classes of '09, '10, '11). Empirical, true, but I often wonder what people are complaining about.
That being said, I am glad my kids are done – class sizes are too high, and the cuts have been too deep, IMHO as a parent. I see my friends and neighbors here, whose kids are still in school, complaining about things that weren't a problem for my kids – no field trips, no science labs, no books, etc. At a certain point we are going to have a negative ROI. I'm wondering when that point will come.
Lee
June 15th, 2012
12:11 pm
For those who say they attended much larger classes back in the 60s and 70s, that is probably true. Of course, you’re talking an era when America was still relatively homogenous with a white population of 85%+. Then the traitorous Ted Kennedy got the Immigration Act of 1965 passed which eliminated the National Origins Formula and opened our borders to massive third world immigration. Couple that with massive ILLEGAL invasions and the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act, which pushed the special ed kids into mainstream classrooms, bow to politically correct pressures to take discipline out of the classroom, and you have the current recipe for disaster.
I’ve long been an advocate of grouping students by ability/achievement level and providing instruction commensurate with each group’s level.
Does it really matter if at the end of the semester, Group A is on chapter 20 and Group B is on chapter 12 – especially if that is the appropriate level and pace of instruction?
But alas, the educrats continue to pound square pegs into round holes and act dismayed when everyone gets hit with splinters….
teacher&mom
June 15th, 2012
12:23 pm
SAT Participation has increased since the 1970’s. Also, students taking the SAT in 2011 are more diverse than in the past.
2011 saw an increase in SAT participation among traditionally underrepresented student population:
*44% were minority students
*36% were first-generation college goers
*27% do not speak exclusively English
*more than 350,000 utilized the SAT fee waiver (indicating a larger participation of economically disadvantaged students)
Sources:
http://media.collegeboard.com/homeOrg/pdf/sat_particip_20ytrend.pdf
http://media.collegeboard.com/pdf/cbs_2011_nat_release_091411.pdf
http://media.collegeboard.com/homeOrg/pdf/2011_cbs_race_mostdiverse.pdf
http://press.collegeboard.org/releases/2011/43-percent-2011-college-bound-seniors-met-sat-college-and-career-readiness-benchmark
Janet
June 15th, 2012
12:38 pm
I have experienced both a private kindergarten with very small number of students (14 kids with 2 full time degreed teachers) and an overcrowded public kindergarten in Suwanee (with 27 kids with 1 teacher and part time parapro).
As a stay at home mom and active classroom volunteer in both situations, I can unequivocally say CLASS SIZE MATTERS!!! And the differences are astounding in terms of what could be accomplished in a day and also in terms of maintaining control of the classroom. I will say that in my situations, all teachers were great. But the student/teacher ratio made all the difference between getting a good education and barely mediocre one. Apparently Gwinnett is striving for barely mediocre. Sad.
Entitlement Society
June 15th, 2012
12:57 pm
I, too, have experienced both a private kindergarten and an APS kindergarten with similar stats regarding student teacher ratios. Having spent a great deal of volunteer time in each class room over each of those two years, if it’s not class size, I don’t know what it is, but there’s a huge difference. At the end of the year in the APS kindergarten you had at least a couple of kids who couldn’t even form letters to write their own names!!! I was appalled. Obviously, the teacher couldn’t devote enough time over the year to be able to adequately help these floundering children (and obviously they weren’t getting any support at home). So, so sad.
lyncoln
June 15th, 2012
1:21 pm
Solutions,
Here’s one counterpoint. Score trends on the NAEP in mathematics are positive over time.
“Scores for all three age groups showed a positive linear trend-an overall increase from 1973 to 1996.”
http://nces.ed.gov/pubs98/web/98462.asp
Also, using the data tool, one example shows 4th grade scores nationally on the NAEP from 1990-2011 rose from 212 to 240. Looks like a successful trend there.
http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/naepdata/
On a different note:
How many students took a calculus class in high school in 1970? I’m going to assume that the percentage is much lower than it is right now. If we are teaching more students calculus in school than we were 40 years ago, that would suggest that we are doing a better job of educating now than in the past.
Double Zero Eight
June 15th, 2012
1:24 pm
@ Entitlement Society
The sad truth is many parents send their
kids to school primarily for what they perceive
to be a “free babysitting service”. As a result,
they could care less if their child was “learning”.
It is basically the parents fault the children could
not write their “own names”.
I guess that once a student gets to college,
class size does not matter. At UGA and Tech, it is
common to have 150 students in some lecture classes.
I do believe that class size mainly matters
in kindergarten and elementary school. By the time
they are in high school, students should have a good
foundation and be able to keep up.
William Casey
June 15th, 2012
1:34 pm
@LEE: I’ve long been an advocate of grouping students by ability/achievement level and providing instruction commensurate with each group’s level.”
I’m with you on this as long as there is a concerted effort to improve assessment of ability and “ability grouping” does not become a rigid track system. In my experience, human beings develop at differing paces and historically, ability grouping systems have not taken this into account.
Entitlement Society
June 15th, 2012
1:58 pm
@ Double Zero Eight – You wrote that “The sad truth is many parents send their kids to school primarily for what they perceive
to be a “free babysitting service”. As a result, they could care less if their child was “learning”. It is basically the parents fault the children could not write their “own names”.
So, why were there only children in the public school kindergarten that couldn’t even form letters to write and not in the private school? I’m still going to put some blame on the 25:1 ratio versus the 9:1 ratio.
Furthermore, if, as you say, it’s the parent’s fault that the children cannot write letters (which most child learn well before kindergarten anyway), why do we even have public school teachers? Just asking…
Dr. Craig Spinks/ Georgians for Educational Excellence
June 15th, 2012
3:32 pm
William Casey & (T)eacher and mom,
About 15 years ago, a bill requiring admins to spend five days per year in a classroom was introduced by Representative Ben Harbin of Evans. The bill was passed in both houses but with an amendment added without the knowledge of Harbin. Under the stealth amendment, admins could opt for inservice hours instead of classroom hours.
How many of our educational “leaders” escaped from the classroom at first opportunity? Too DAMNED many! How many wanted to go back for only 5 days per year? Too DAMNED few.
William Casey
June 15th, 2012
4:40 pm
Too many education “leaders” have NO significant academic classroom experience.
dekalbite
June 15th, 2012
8:52 pm
When my daughter was in Kindergarten, she had 31 students in her class with a teacher and a paraprofessional. As she moved forward she had the same size classes in first and second with a para and in third with just the teacher, no para.
We lived (live) in an affluent neighborhood with involved parents so most of the kids did okay even with these large class sizes. However, there were some kids that had some difficulty with reading and/or math. They weren’t special education candidates, just had some developmental delay. With such large class sizes, their needs were not addressed. No fault of the teachers. The teachers just had too many children to give these students the individual attention they needed.
My daughter’s friends who were having a difficult time in the primary grades never really caught up. They had a hard time in middle school and also in high school. They started but did not finish college. They are now in their late 20s, and IMO – the impact that these large class sizes had on them in the very early grades can be seen over 20 years later.
I know this story is anecdotal, but I have watched these few friends of my daughter’s who struggled in the early grades miss out on educational opportunities as they progressed into the intermediate, middle and high school years and be unprepared for college. The problem with these studies that conclude class size doesn’t matter is they do not look at what happens to these struggling students as they grow up. What longitudinal study on class size looks at these same students who just need a little individualized attention (and cannot get it because of such large class sizes) in 20 or 25 years?
Talktome
June 16th, 2012
12:13 am
Class size matters and it does not matter. An excellent teacher will be able to teach in any size classroom. However, along with a larger class size, comes behavioral issues. A not so good teacher will not be able to do the job with 10 children. And that’s a fact. Three things need to happen in order to change our school system. 1. Get rid of racism…No it won’t happen. But as long as we have teachers who don’t care if the children they are teaching learn or not…our children will not learn…no matter what the class size. 2. Parents must get involved in their children’s education journey. Parents can no longer leave all learning up to teachers. Why would you totally trust what your children are learning up to other people? 3. We must get qualified teachers to teach our children. Qualified does not mean attending Harvard. A good teachers truly cares about the students. A good teacher has the ability to teach all children…no matter what the background. A good teacher has true integrity and will do the right thing when no one is looking. Two out of the three changes will make a different in our school systems.
Anonmom
June 16th, 2012
10:18 am
Class size matters a lot — the kids in the classes are much more diverse than they used to be — the teacher just can’t give the kids what they need with so many kids in the class. If the classes were homogeneous and were grouped with all level 1, level 2s and level 3s isolated and non-inclusive then maybe they could run slightly larger but even then, they would “top out” over 30-35. There’s a reason the top private schools run classes under 20 per class. Discipline is a huge issue…. it’s minimized in a more homogeneous classroom. Teachers need better training and national certification (Georgia has one of the weakest certification exams in the country). Administration is much too top heavy and needs to be flattened … too much money is spent in administration. I’m all for getting the Dept. of Ed in DC out of education — it’s wasting dollars. I agree that we are spending much less than our “friends” in NJ, Mass and NY in taxes used for education but I’m so cynical at this point that I think it would all be wasted away…… Now if it went to vouchers and fed in at the bottom of the pyramid, we could begin a discussion with a new paradigm.
Frustrated Teacher
June 16th, 2012
12:40 pm
Class size matters when the educational system pushes for inclusion based classes. I can teach a class of 35 students just fine, if they are all on the same level and are high performing students. However in one class of 35, I had four students with severe emotional disabilities, two with Autism, three with ADHD (and one of those was so severe I often had to stop class to prevent the child from running out the door!), and six with limited English proficiency. I don’t think ANY teacher could effectively teach in that situation. Our school system has also decided to raise class sizes by three students next year to save money, and again, each class will be fully inclusive as they don’t have the money for special education teachers to teach self contained.
Good Mother
June 16th, 2012
8:01 pm
We should LOWER class size in the early grades?
DUH.
Dr. Monica Henson
June 17th, 2012
1:01 pm
Elizabeth posted (and many other educator posters echoed, at least implicitly): “No matter what the research says…” This is the problem with the average American schoolteacher, and with many (if not most) school administrators. Until public educators K-12 begin paying attention to what the research says, and acting on it, then as a group they will never get the kind of respect they so openly hunger for, that accorded to physicians, scientists, attorneys, and others classified by practice and by society as professionals.
In addition to far more years spent in postsecondary preparation, those in the professions in this country are expected to know the research base in their field, adhere to it, and in many cases, contribute to it. This is not the case with K-12 educators, and comments prefaced with “No matter what the research says” only serve to perpetuate the public perception of K-12 educators as not deserving of the respect that doctors and scientists receive.
How many of us would want to be treated by a physician who proudly and loudly disputed medical research, complained that s/he didn’t really know what it said because s/he doesn’t have or take the time to read it, and prescribed treatment based on so-called common sense” and his/her own personal preferences and feelings, many times in direct contravention of the medical research base?