Not true that urban schools fail all students: Intown white high school students outperform suburban counterparts.
Jarod Apperson, a Midtown reader, sent me an interesting analysis of Georgia SAT scores, similar to one that I ran a few years ago, showing that white students in metro schools outperform suburban counterparts. Except he went a bit deeper.
Here is why he compiled the data and what he hopes we learn from it:
Since my analysis has some newer data and focuses on specific schools, people might still be interested in it. I think the fact that North Atlanta is the No. 3 public school in the state for white high school students could be a strong talking point for APS school chief Erroll B. Davis trying to get more middle-class families to stay in the public education system.
It’s a narrative that’s not heard enough.
To answer your question about how I came to look at this, I became interested in education reform a few years ago when I read a book by Paul Tough called “Whatever it Takes.” I’ve always felt that excellent public education was the best way to create economic mobility between classes.
Unfortunately, what we’ve seen for years is that schools are as good (or bad) as their inputs. In recent years, a couple of schools have shown capacity to completely alter outcomes and that gets me excited.
And here is his explanation of his chart:
The story of Metro Atlanta’s school quality has followed a consistent beat for the past 40 years. You have no doubt heard that inner-city schools are failing while schools outside the Northern Perimeter (particularly North Fulton, Cobb, and Gwinnett) are excelling. I suspect you will be interested, as I was, to find that data made available by the Governor`s Office does not support this commonly held belief.
Nationwide, there is a significant achievement gap between white/Asian students and their black/Hispanic counterparts. As such, school “quality” measures, without consideration of demographics, can become merely a function of inputs rather than a true measure of a schools’ impact on its students.
One of the less discussed components of President Bush´s controversial No Child Left Behind Act is the requirement that states break out student performance at a demographic level. As a result of the act, a wealth of detailed performance data, including demographics, has become available in recent years.
An analysis of SAT performance for Metro Atlanta´s white, public high school students yields some expected and unexpected results. As you might expect, 16 of the 25 top-performing public high schools are located in North Fulton, Cobb, or Gwinnett.
However, the very top of the list is dominated by schools inside the perimeter. Six of the 7 top performing high schools in Metro Atlanta are located inside the perimeter, with Chamblee Charter, North Atlanta, and Decatur leading the way.
What this table tells us is that Metro Atlanta´s schools are producing outcomes similar to their inputs. Intown schools have not found a way to dramatically improve outcomes for their disadvantaged students, but their wealthier, white students are doing just fine.
In fact, those white students are outperforming their suburban counterparts.
If you and your family have been considering an in-town move, but fears over school performance have held you back, it´s time to take a second look.
–From Maureen Downey for the AJC Get Schooled blog
NOTE: The data used in this analysis comprises Math and Verbal Scores for the SAT in the years 2009 through 2011. This data was retrieved from the Governor´s Office of Student Achievement on June 2, 2012. Data also including writing scores was not available at a demographically distinct level.
Tell us what you think about the site
Customer Care »
Vacation stops, manage subscriptions and more
AJC Services
Sections
Other Editions
Visitor Agreement | Privacy Statement
© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
136 comments Add your comment
Poor Boy from Alabama
June 3rd, 2012
6:33 am
The embedded image of individual school results didn’t appear when i loaded the page. The inference from the text of this blog post is that white APS students from high socioeconomic status households do well on the SAT. Is that really a surprise?
APS is trying to recover from a terrible cheating scandal. The board has been through a period of intense turmoil and turnover. Erroll Davis is a stopgap leader with no heir apparent. That combination would not be much of a lure for folks whose children are doing well in Cobb, Gwinnettt, or North Fulton schools.
mike
June 3rd, 2012
7:18 am
This all boils down to parenting in the end. Most white/asian parents are very proactive in their childrens lives. I do not understand why we keep focusing so much on the schools. It is the parenting that is most of the difference.
We have two educators here at our house and they both see which kids come to school well rested and prepared. They also see which parents show up at open house etc…
Jack
June 3rd, 2012
7:45 am
“…boils down to parenting…”. An unalterable truth that keeps on ticking.
puzzling choice
June 3rd, 2012
7:55 am
Success Charter is the antithesis of a community school. They are trying to break apart by using the shared school space of a successful school already established in a community very similar to Va High in Brooklyn. It is highly controversial so why in the heck would you want to place the success of already established working truly public schools along side a charter network, This smacks of a sneaky way to get Success Charters which is looking to expand its NETWORK of charters into Atlanta. I am not a conspiracy theorist but the success of the intown students has absolutely NOTHING to do with Success Charter and I very much question why it is even included into this piece.
Hooray for the Intown schools and it is due to the incredible level of dedication of some very trusting and hard working parents and teachers and school workers/ admins who value education and value community. Celebrate their success and know that it came from these people not from a charter school network with ties to hedge funds and who’s director makes more money than Earl Davis.
bootney farnsworth
June 3rd, 2012
8:04 am
once again we discover water is wet.
two parent children do better than single parent children
children with resources do better than those without
the parts of society which focus on style over substance get neither
there is no substitute for parental involvement in student success.
bootney farnsworth
June 3rd, 2012
8:08 am
it would be an interesting study to see how a one to one view against Gwinnett’s mostly well to do white schools, or private schools like Pius or GAC
crankee-yankee
June 3rd, 2012
8:10 am
I’m not a conspiracy theorist but when one walks & talks like a duck…
ALEC has an agenda…
bootney farnsworth
June 3rd, 2012
8:10 am
@ puzzling
results comparatively, I’ll take the rich hedge fund connected guy over Erroll Davis anytime.
the former gets results, the latter sleeps behind the wheel
Dunwoody Mom
June 3rd, 2012
8:14 am
Please remember that the scores of Chamblee Charter High School also include those of the students in the Magnet program. The magnet program while housed at Chamblee is not part of Chamblee and the scores should be reported separately as should all scores in schools which contain magnet programs. I have spoken to former teachers, parents and grandparents of children in the residenct program at Chamblee (my alma mater) and they are tired of all of the money and resources going to the magnet program. This is OT here, but I will say and have said loudly, that resident students at Chamblee have suffered with the magnet program in the same building. Don’t believe me? Try and get a breakdown of scores resident v magnet.
northatlantateacher
June 3rd, 2012
8:27 am
@SugarHillDawg: That’s not the point of his analysis at all. I’ve taught many wealthy white kids whose parents don’t give one flaming damn about their actual learning, but about getting a grade they feel is appropriate for their social standing. In fact, I had more parents care about actual learning and respect when I taught in a Title I school – and my most supportive parents were Hispanic who spoke little English and grandmothers raising their grandchildren, both black and white. Please no more obviously racist generalizations. It’s tired and counterproductive.
As for the analysis, very interesting and what a breath of fresh air. I’ve suspected that to be true, but never had the time or inclination to do the work to find out.
puzzling choice
June 3rd, 2012
8:27 am
Maureen, I am a pretty faithful reader and intermittent comment writer. I am surprised that this piece that starts off about analysis of white student success intown versus suburban and veers into Success Charter is included here. It sounds like a puff piece for Success Charters which has been written about extensively in other areas- Washington Post, New York Times etc.
This reads as a puff piece for this charter network instead of an examination of what IS working in the intown schools. Instead of examining the aspects that are working and driving conversations around what could be done to bridge divides, eye ball time has been granted to read about this controversial charter that has driven a wedge into some very cohesive neighborhoods. I am surprised.
Bill
June 3rd, 2012
8:29 am
I sure would like to see the table.
Dunwoody Mom
June 3rd, 2012
8:32 am
Suggestion: For those who utlize Twitter, start following Diane Ravitch. Your eyes will be opened with regards to Charters, voucher programs, etc., She has a wonderful piece in Education Week, I believe, about whether Charter Schools ar really public schools. It will really open eyes – unless you are one of those legislators who doesn’t want their eyes opened.
puzzling choice
June 3rd, 2012
8:38 am
@Bootney, when the profits have been wrung through and the ’success’ of the schools is to divide neighborhoods and leave an even greater divide between the haves and the have nots, something is truly broken.
Hedge funds are driving what exactly these days except short sighted self interest? Tumultuous ups and downs is not exactly a recipe for success in a long payoff enterprise that education actually is. Education as monetary investment should not come at the expense of children who need stability and continuation in their path to success. Especially those who don’t have the luxury of two parent family incomes, two parent family oversight and two parent family expectations.
Hmmmmm....
June 3rd, 2012
8:39 am
NorthAtlanta teacher….your rebuke of Sugar Hill Dawg was well warranted. But it begs a different question. Namely, what is the role of the school (and therefore society) in the lives of so many minority students whose families have so little regard in the education and welfare of their kids? Is it the school’s responsibility to be the student’s family?
puzzling choice
June 3rd, 2012
8:47 am
@Dunwoody Mom. I second you on that.
Charters started off as being such a great idea and it has morphed into this cash cow. Teacher churn, TFA replacements every two years and voila, you have a built in cheap work force with very little incentive to actually improve their craft, and hedge fund managers who love the profit margins even of these not for profit charters. The real estate deals, technology for virtual school deals and tax breaks are enough to make investors like even the not for profits.
Dunwoody Mom
June 3rd, 2012
8:51 am
Here is the link to the article on Charter Schools:
http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/Bridging-Differences/2012/05/are_charter_schools_public_sch.html
northatlantateacher
June 3rd, 2012
8:59 am
@Hmmmm: I don’t know what the answer is. If I did, I’d write a book, go on Oprah and open my own school.
The same problems tend to exist in poor and wealthy areas, the main difference is public perception. We have kids who are abused, who do not get enough to eat, who are chronically absent, who have horrible home lives. In wealthy suburban areas, it all tends to be swept under the rug very quickly and the “it doesn’t happen here” mentality reigns supreme. Mostly (notice – not all), parents do not want the help of the school – unless it is to further an image of success and perfection, real or otherwise.
I think it’s easy to say poor people don’t value education and wealthy people do – huge generalization. It’s all about image and perception.
Diane is Biased
June 3rd, 2012
9:17 am
Let the charter school bashing begin.
Diane Ravitch is just as blind as those who unilaterally support all charters; she does not discriminate between for-profit charters and not-for-profit charters. Everyone goes into the pot, and they are all bad. I have asked her repeatedly to articulate how, exactly, she would change education, and she has never responded. Bash, bash, bash, with no suggestions in sight. Productive. Because she is, obviously, changing the world by blogging.
@Bootney has it right: water is wet. White people, for whatever reason you’d like to elucidate, have always gotten the better end of the deal. Go on back and read Jonathan Kozol’s “Savage Inequalities” if you need more evidence of that.
(Sorry about the quotes, even though it is a book. Not sure how to italicize.)
Dunwoody Mom
June 3rd, 2012
9:38 am
@diane is Biased…would you care to provide examples of Diane discriminating against not-for-profit charters? Her whole argument deals with charter schools and their incestuous relationships with for-profit companies.
Anonmom
June 3rd, 2012
9:38 am
Lakeside’s, Druid Hills, Dunwoody’s, Chamblee’s and Decatur’s white and asian kids will invariably do well. They are most likely living in fairly expensive, two parent homes and their parents (at least one) probably has a decent, professional job — if its DHHS or LHS, it’s probably as a professor at Emory or Tech or GA State, at the CDC, or as a Doctor, Lawyer or CPA — that’s the community in which these communities are located. The scores, though, are a bit deceptive, as at at least one of these schools, many of the “successful” kids have a battery of tutors who are helping to supplement the daily classwork and the SAT/ACT scores at a pretty high cost to the parents.
Maureen Downey
June 3rd, 2012
9:38 am
@Bill, I added it using a different program. See if can you see it now. Maureen
Just A Grunt
June 3rd, 2012
9:49 am
“Intown schools have not found a way to dramatically improve outcomes for their disadvantaged students, but their wealthier, white students are doing just fine.”
And right there is the logical fallacy, in the argument when trying to excuse away lack luster academic results within the black community. In fact it is down right denial of the the obvious, but somehow it must all come down to money. Immigrants from all over the world come to our country, attend these very same schools and achieve spectacular results. Many of these immigrants have nothing more then the clothes on their backs and enough food in the pantry to make it to tomorrow and yet somehow they manage to win spelling bees, history competitions, and all sorts of other academic honors. It all comes down to priorities and personal values.
If education was truly simply a matter of wealth, Abraham Lincoln would have never been a lawyer or a President. Give up on trying to draw parallels between income and intellect. It is intellectually dishonest.
bootney farnsworth
June 3rd, 2012
9:50 am
@ puzzling
your apparent issues with the free market aside, it’s a simple issue.
the evil hedge fund guy is successful. Erroll Davis is not. more over, he sat on his hands
will GPC spent itself in the biggest debt crisis a single institution has ever had.
and refused to take action against an out of control president despite mountains of
evidence of problems.
corporate success vs cronyism. easy choice for me
valid questions
June 3rd, 2012
9:55 am
It is important to note that are virtually no poor and even lower middle class white families left in DeKalb. It is not surprising that the few white students left in DeKalb do well, they are genetically programmed to do so. There is mounds of research that supports both race and socio-economic level as having a strong correlation to the scores on the SAT.
There are about 500-600 white high school seniors in any given year in DeKalb. Walton High School alone has about 500 white seniors a year.
For comparison purposes, those 500 white seniors at Walton are being compared with a tiny sample at schools like North Atlanta (44 test takers) and Grady (67). Every family I know at NA and Grady have a choice. If the school doesn’t work out, they can make another choice, private, or move. I also know families who live in the Walton district whose kids are in private schools because the school is too competitive for their children.
I am a DeKalb County parent, but most of my closest friends live in the suburbs and I gotta tell you their children are having a far better educational experience than the kids in DeKalb. The number of really weak administrators and teachers are fewer and far between. Their systems, though they have bumps in the road, face none of the challenges that DeKalb and Atlanta do.
As to Chamblee, when Dr. Brown was here, he had the scores broken out for magnet vs non-magnet, and the non-magnet part of Chamblee had among the lowest SAT scores in the county. DSA has admission standards. Riverwood has benefited from an IB magnet (which I think is now not really a magnet) plus an annual infusion of private school kids who enter in 9th grade. I love living close-in, but would we do it again? Probably not.
guest
June 3rd, 2012
9:59 am
Just a grunt,
Well said.
bootney farnsworth
June 3rd, 2012
9:59 am
@ diane/biased
at GPC I see our native born, low income black kids do amazing things daily.
but it is undeniable on the whole, American blacks with a better standard of living
than most of their actually African counterparts with a much worse standard of living
lag well behind in the classroom.
to be fair, however, we must acknowledge anyone willing to undergo the rigors of coming
here is already an A+ person with high motivation and drive. it would almost be a bigger issue if
they didn’t achieve
homeschooler
June 3rd, 2012
10:17 am
I don’t know about Chamblee but the same goes for Wheeler in Cobb. I suspect that those higher scores are coming mainly from the magnet students. Is it just a fluke that the magnet schools in Cobb are all placed in the poor performing schools? I guess not. Frankly I was surprised at how low these scores were for the “good” schools in Cobb. I would have thought that Pope and Walton would have had higher scores.
Maureen Downey
June 3rd, 2012
10:29 am
@Just a Grunt, I saw a study last year about immigrant children and school performance and the decisive factors of how well they fared were whether there was a history of family literacy and education of the parents. Many of those high achieving immigrants are coming from families where the parents attended school and can read in their native language. An example is the custodian of the Gwinnett school where my daughter practiced volleyball. In Vietnam, the man had been a math teacher but never was able to teach here due to language. His son graduated Tech with an engineering degree. His second son was also in college. Often, folks who are driving cabs here had white collar jobs in their homelands.
Maureen
wheelermom
June 3rd, 2012
10:34 am
@homeschooler – I can’t speak for how Chamblee runs their magnet, but Wheeler magnet students ARE considered Wheeler students. Outside of the math and science magnet classes, the other classes like English Lit, History, and electives are all taken with the “unwashed masses,” so to speak.
Of Wheeler’s approximately 2000 students, less than a quarter of them are magnet, and of the 125 accepted freshmen each year, there is some attrition. Additionally, a percentage of those students are districted to Wheeler anyway. I’m not going to deny that having a math and science magnet helps boost our scores, but to say that our scores are only a reflection of the magnet students is inaccurate.
For the record, I speak as the mom of two NON-magnet students – both of my kids got a great education at Wheeler despite the fact they are very much humanities-driven and not science-driven. The school has excellent honors classes and AP choices for magnet and non-magnet alike. Although we draw from some lower-income neighborhoods, we also draw from some half-million-dollar + neighborhoods – and they are adjacent to the same type of neighborhoods that feed into Walton.
Maureen Downey
June 3rd, 2012
10:37 am
@Valid, At one point, Lakeside High led the state in AP courses. It still has many more than most Georgia high schools. So, I am not sure that your comment about suburban schools offering kids far more than DeKalb schools. One of the key factors in school success is teachers, and it remains easier for urban schools to attract teachers. Decatur High can get its pick of teachers because young, smart people want to live in Decatur and Candler Park and Va-Highlands and Midtown. Ditto for Lakeside and Druid Hills; they, too, benefit by having a larger teacher pool than many schools outside the Perimeter and beyond. (I think college grads are willing to accept a 45-minute commute, but not much farther.)
You will not find too many college grads from UGA or Tech or Emory who want to move out of metro Atlanta. That’s why there is a lot focus now on developing home-grown talent in areas that can’t attract young newcomers.
(It also remains true that teacher turnover is higher at private schools.)
Maureen
Hmmmmm....
June 3rd, 2012
10:38 am
@NorthAtlanta Teacher…..so in your opinion, the notion that a good education is only a “white thing”…a belief that is supposedly held by many black people, is false??
Teacher of truth
June 3rd, 2012
10:39 am
It seems that we now have proof that inner city white students to better that suburban white students because of an AJC report! Really! The AJC should really stop selling lies and dreams to its readers! Is North Atlanta really being called an urban school! Really! What about all the social problems of a failed school plan called SLCs! When will the people of Atlanta demand real push back on the topics like education! The AJC has no clue about education !
Question 1: What is the makes the parents of North Atlanta more informed on education than Cobb patents? North Atlanta High school has not made AYP in six years! AJC why has this not being reported in this report!
Recommendations: Leave education alone and cover stories like a cat being caught in a tree!
Ed Johnson
June 3rd, 2012
10:40 am
“Three-year average.” Why Three-Year Average? Why not just Average, or Four-Year Average, or x-Year Average?
Send to edwjohnson@aol.com the data that went into constructing the chart. The data should include the number of test takers per test administration per school.
Anonmom
June 3rd, 2012
10:42 am
Another point to note, we have non-white families and non-asian families at DHHS and at LHS who have kids who are just as successful as the white and asian kids… the difference is that they are from two parent homes with successful, upper middle class parents — they are not the “stero-typical” “inner-city” “bussed” AYP kids in the statistics. These schools would be very “diverse” and multi-cultural without the AYP “mix” that AYP has handed them. With the socio-economics of being “in district” the racial breakdown, I believe, of all the races, would probably be pretty even — it’s when you add in the scores of the AYP transfers, which add in, mostly (and I”m assuming) single-parent, homes, driving an hour or more in each direction, from a different socio-economic bracket, that the scores are more varied. I have friends, black, whose children are at Ivey and near-Ivey schools based mostly on merit who are in-district — because they have the values they instilled in their own kids. They live in-district. The issues are much more “cultural” than “school” based. But, as most of you have figured out by now, I do think if more of the money was put into the classroom and wasn’t being diverted into “pet” projects, I think we’d be much further along….
northatlantateacher
June 3rd, 2012
10:45 am
@Maureen: Is there data available for the number of students tested at each school during this three year period? Also, what about controlling for free and reduced lunch, regardless of race?
northatlantateacher
June 3rd, 2012
10:47 am
@Teacher of truth: With all due respect, AYP is not a measure of anything valuable.
northatlantateacher
June 3rd, 2012
10:54 am
@Hmmm…? I do not understand your point.
Hugh Beaumont.
June 3rd, 2012
10:54 am
” Intown schools have not found a way to dramatically improve outcomes for their disadvantaged students, but their wealthier, white students are doing just fine”.
Please Maureen, I missed the part where they compared parental income between the white and black counterparts at in town schools, so exactly what source are you quoting that says the white students who scored higher had higher family incomes? Or did you just make that part up?
Hmmmmm....
June 3rd, 2012
10:55 am
Well said Just a Grunt….
Being a first generation immigrant from a third world country 35 yrs ago, in my opinion obtaining a good education is almost entirely based on parental involvement and expectations. If little exists, all the money thrown at schools (public vs private, OTP vs ITP) won’t matter
Maureen Downey
June 3rd, 2012
10:56 am
@Hugh, I didn’t write that line — it is part of the analysis by the reader. You can look at the demographics in the state data. (Several of the questions on this thread can be answered by going to the GOSA site and looking at the school report cards, including demographics.)
Maureen
Hugh Beaumont.
June 3rd, 2012
10:58 am
“many of the “successful” kids have a battery of tutors”
Yes Anon, it is called their parents.
Jarod Apperson
June 3rd, 2012
10:59 am
@northatlantateacher: There is data available for the number of students tested on the Governor´s Office of Student Achivement. I am working on a more comprehensive review of performance at all metro schools (including elementary and middle), which will also consider economic advantage/disadvantage.
Michael
June 3rd, 2012
11:03 am
Korean and Japanese kids attend Saturday School as a rule.
Hmmmmm.....
June 3rd, 2012
11:04 am
@NorthAtlantaTeacher, I guess I tipped my hand with my latest comment. But my question to you as an experienced teacher is the supposition that home/parental involvement is THE most influential predictive factor as to whether a child succeeds in school.
a. Do you agree?
b. Do you find that non-white, non-Asian parents have less involvement in their children’s education?
Hugh Beaumont.
June 3rd, 2012
11:06 am
Maureen, actually, it appears Jarod made the statement, so sorry for the snarky remark. And although I do not doubt it is true, if it is not part of the study, why start tossing out assumptions?
Jarod Apperson
June 3rd, 2012
11:06 am
@Hugh: Good comment. The Governor´s Office does not break out economic status by race. However, according to census data, the areas zoned for the high-performing intown schools have significantly higher incomes.
northatlantateacher
June 3rd, 2012
11:15 am
@Jarod: Thanks. Now that it’s summer, I have time to look!
northatlantateacher
June 3rd, 2012
11:18 am
@hmmmm
a. It depends on the quality and motivation of the involvement.
b. I think SES is more predictive than race, but it all depends on the why behind the involvement.
Anonmom
June 3rd, 2012
11:21 am
Hugh Beaumont; no, really, outside tutors — math tutors, science tutors, even some have English and language tutors — but mainly math tutors (retired math teachers are really making a bunch of money). Applerouth and Kaplan and other testing companies are making a bunch of money on SAT and ACT tutoring.. the kids have a lot of outside help that are “flying under the radar screen.”
Hugh Beaumont.
June 3rd, 2012
11:22 am
@Jarod. Sure, but if we are comparing same school scores by race, the income zone for that school is moot, for anyone attending that school would be in that higher income zone. But regardless, successful parents raise successful children, nothing earth shattering there.
Hmmmmm.....
June 3rd, 2012
11:26 am
@NorthAtlantaTeacher:
Why the importance on the motivation of the parental involvment? It’s either there or not, correct? As for quality?….please explain if you will
Second, agree that socioeconomic status is also a strong predictor. That said, their is higher proportion of African-American and Hispanics who are poor….so, ergo….race does matter, No?? What I mean to say is….if you’re black or brown, you’re more likely to be poor. Therefore, you’re more likely to not be involved in your child’s education, correct??
As to WHY if you’re poor and are not an involved parent is an entirely different matter, IMO
Hugh Beaumont.
June 3rd, 2012
11:29 am
@Anonmom, you assume. But even if it is an expert, or a parent, it is the fact that the child is spending time away from school working and trying to learn. It is engagement.
If we are going to examine what is “flying under the radar”, we need to account for everything.
How much time to the kids spend on FB?
Do they go out and hang out with their friends unsupervised before all the homework is complete?How often are the parents accessing their computer portals to review their students work?
A reader
June 3rd, 2012
11:31 am
Which 3 years were averaged?
I find this data hard to believe. Here is a link the the GA Dept of Education website 2010 SAT scores(http://archives.gadoe.org/DMGetDocument.aspx/Class%20of%202010%20SAT%20by%20School-District%209-13-10.pdf?p=6CC6799F8C1371F679F356128768AA88368880B0620F383CC5E733906352FF6E&Type=D). In includes scores for all 3 sections of the SAT by school and includes the number of test takers.
According to this, 150 students from North Atlanta took the test. The average verbal was 485 and the average math score was 477 giving 962 out of a possible 1600. Milton High School had 485 students take the test with an average verbal of 554 and math of 555 giving 1109 out of a possible 1600. Note that the demographics of Milton High School is mostly white (84% according to this website: http://www.bestplaces.net/schools/georgia/alpharetta/milton_high_school).
So my question is, how many white students took the SAT at North Atlanta and how bad must of the minorities’ SAT scores been to reduce the average from 1178 (according to the table in this blog) to the 2010 average of 962, a difference of more than 200 points?
valid questions
June 3rd, 2012
11:36 am
Maureen
The contract a teacher signs is with a school system, not a school. While there are some teachers who want to bike or walk to work, most want to work where they can make the most $, have a strong school based administrator and a healthy school system. DeKalb is no longer the place where any of those are true. Salaries continue to drop after being the second highest paying system in the metro area for years, we are no where near that anymore.
City of Decatur can attract great teachers, not because of its location which helps, but because it is a healthy school system with a population that is far less challenging, in terms of socio-economics, than the surrounding systems.
Yes, Lakeside offers a lot of AP courses. The pass rate is not half (49.9 percent) At Walton where more than twice the number of students took the test, the pass rate is more than 75 percent. (76.1)
I am not bashing Lakeside and Walton to Lakeside is certainly not an apples to apples comparison.
What I am trying to illustrate is that even DeKalb’s “best” schools are being impacted by the overall dysfunction that is DeKalb.
Jarod Apperson
June 3rd, 2012
11:40 am
@Hugh. I see your point. You´re right, I haven´t done a comprehensive look at demographic variation for each of the schools. However, there is data available that shows income variation between areas zoned for the schools. For example, Census Tract 9402 is zoned for North Atlanta. It is 59% hispanic and has a median income of $49,201. Census Tract 99 is also zoned for North Atlanta. It is 95% white and has a median income of $126,096. It would take a while to perform a comprehensive review, but I suspect it would show more of the same.
My point really is the same as your successful parents raise successful children.
If you want to check out more demographics by census tract, you can here:
http://projects.nytimes.com/census/2010/explorer
redweather
June 3rd, 2012
11:50 am
I agree with the many comments here arguing that parental involvement is a, if not the, key to student success and achievement. But let’s give the students some credit as well. There is peer pressure at every school to view learning as a waste of time, as boring, as (fill in the blank). Successful students rise above that peer pressure and not infrequently drag some of their less committed peers along with them. It is possible to succeed as a student even if your parents (or parent) are not all that supportive, and one way that happens is through positive peer pressure.
In my view, the greatest obstacle to student success may be our unwillingness to reward, or single out, high-achievers because we don’t want anyone’s feelings to get hurt. The “Everyone Gets a Trophy” mindset is both counter-intuitive and counterproductive.
Ed Johnson
June 3rd, 2012
11:50 am
@Anonmon: “The issues are much more ‘cultural’ than ‘school’ based.”
Exactly. Obviously, culture shows up and enters school every day that school is in session. It should also be obvious that school dysfunction arises when school is managed in such a way as to prevent school from learning from culture and, on that basis, improving. School should have the freedom and wherewithal to grab hold of culture by the, ah, whatever, study it, and learn from it, and use that learning to continually develop the capability to mitigate, absorb, and otherwise deal with whatever culture brings to school.
When school can’t or is prevented from learning, then blame for school problems go to the usual culprits: poverty, not enough money, low parental involvement, kids coming to school unprepared, lack of school uniforms, lack of male role models, …, and, ultimately, the kitchen sink.
(It’s encouraging to hear APS’ D.H. Stanton ES, once on Superintendent’s Erroll Davis’ closure list, may be attempting to break free of this mindset, to indeed go at culture, head on, in a Stephen Covey kind of way.)
Unfortunately it seems too often school is thought of as just a place, a building, where education delivery happens. Rarely, it seems, is school thought to be an organism that itself needs to, and is capable of, continually learning and improving.
(In a meeting last week with GA State Superintendent Dr. John Barge as guest presenter, it was interesting, and puzzling, hearing him speak of education “delivery.” Yup, open up their heads and pour education in, seems the idea.)
northatlantateacher
June 3rd, 2012
11:52 am
@hmmm: the reason behind the motivation matters because it depends on what the parent wants the outcome to be. Mostly, it’s grade motivated and not learning motivated. Involvement does not equal support education and learning.
SES and race is dependent upon the area, not being black or brown. Appalachia is overwhelmingly white and incredibly poor.
Teacher
June 3rd, 2012
11:56 am
It is great to be in a school where only high achieving students test (this is true in some schools), there is parental support and accountability; the children value education, students are prepared to learn, and in attendance daily; a school where students are selected — limited low income, special needs; zero tolerance and discipline are enforced, etc. This teacher maintains that it is the product that walk through the school door each morning. It is not only the teachers/school responsibility, but when does the parent and child accept responsibility? Also when will business/community become accountable and when will the fingerpoint stop? How do students make it to high school and are unable to read? Some students come to school with a multitutde of issues which should not be a child’s concern. And yet those with silver spoons do not or have not walked in their footsteps. Those on the outside simply do not understand, but continue to make decisions inclusive of unknown factors. NCLB and RTTT, etc., should not be expected to the the answer until everyone shares responsibiity. As teachers are told in faculty meetings, “We can’t help where they come from, but we must teach them.” Yes, high quality teachers are teaching, but apparently it is not getting through.” Will someone help teachers get through to students who apparently aren’t receiving what is being taught? If students are constantly on cell phones/texting, absent, and not paying attention, what do teachers do? Please come to the inside and stop sitting on the outside rendering a variety of reform initiatives. The help that is needed starts before birth, in the home . . . not at the high school level!
Good Mother
June 3rd, 2012
12:01 pm
There is an incorrect assumption that black equals poor and white equals rich. What I want to see is this same type of analysis for all races AND incomes AND education levels.
Just because one is black or white does not guarantee an educational outcome. I know blacks who drive into the city for work but live far outside the perimeter because of the good schools. Those black families are educated too.
The real puzzler is WHY is it that most uneducated and poor people of any race DO NOT value education? Surely it is an easy, apparent, obvious truth that more education equals more money. The easiest way to get out of poverty is to get an education and public schools are FREE for the poor.
As a society, we’ve got to do whatever it takes to make this message clear: School equals money. Go to school and learn. Have a better life.
bootney farnsworth
June 3rd, 2012
12:04 pm
if Erroll really wants people to stay in APS, make some changes that matter.
luckydog
June 3rd, 2012
12:04 pm
Another 40 trillion dollars(total spent on LBJ’s War on Poverty) will not change a thing.
Hmmmmm....
June 3rd, 2012
12:22 pm
@NorthAtlantaTeacher, are you implying grades and academic achievement does not correlate with success in a career?
Totally agree with your point about geography. But taking America as a whole, blacks and browns are disproportionately poor, so higher likelihood of poor educational outcomes (as a group) by this reasoning, correct??
The bigger point that I’m trying to make is, if parental involvement and nuclear family is the single biggest driver in a child’s education, what in the world can a public school system possibly do for a kid in a dysfunctional home??
Hugh Beaumont.
June 3rd, 2012
12:30 pm
So, if Readers number are right, the and the average white kid scores 1178, and the school average is 962….if 25 percent of the students are white…..Then the average non white scored an average of under 850. Who the hell wants to put their kid in that environment?
But, we also have differences in income zones of 125K and 50K.
Message? If your are not rich and white. Say away from inside the perimeter public schools.
Kate
June 3rd, 2012
12:40 pm
Maureen, could you provide the name and/or link to the study you mentioned about immigrant children and school performance? Thank you.
Interesting Observation
June 3rd, 2012
12:42 pm
northatlantateacher
June 3rd, 2012
8:59 am
Ever notice how any and everything negative that happens in the city gets hyped up and replayed morning, noon and night on WSB Action News? Take one incident that gets played day after day three times a day and the perception becomes three separate incidents. According to WSB Action News, anyone who ventures downtown becomes a crime statistic. I make a weekly trek to Olympic Park downtown, and the place is bustling with tourists and locals. Giddy kids enjoying the ringed fountains peppered with international dialects, fathers tossing fotballs to their sons etc. Never is that scene shown on WSB Action News. But let a shooting happen a few blocks from a MARTA station, and it’s geted reported as “SHOOTING AT MARTA STATION.”
Ric The Greek
June 3rd, 2012
12:43 pm
@Dunwoody Mom and everybody else that want to see the magnet/resident scored separated…be careful what you ask for because it my just prove that the “Magnet” students are actually carrying Chamblee High as it relates to high scores and achievement. The resident students may be just average when it comes to the magnet student. As a parent who has had a magnet child go through Chamblee and graduate GA Tech, we have always considered Chamblee to be one school inclusive of both magnet and resident.
TBTG
June 3rd, 2012
12:53 pm
Thomas Sowell on the second edition of Intellectuals and Society – a great read
http://www.hoover.org/multimedia/uncommon-knowledge/116706
northatlantateacher
June 3rd, 2012
1:10 pm
Hmmm: Again, totally lost on your first question. Never said or implied that. We haven’t even touched on a correlation between academic achievement K-12 and career success. That is an entirely different topic than the one at hand.
As for what schools are supposed to do with kids who come from less than ideal homes, I don’t know. I think that’s always been public ed’s biggest obstacle.
northatlantateacher
June 3rd, 2012
1:12 pm
@Interesting Observation: That scene isn’t shown because it isn’t interesting, doesn’t play on viewer’s fears, and doesn’t feed stereotypes.
Hmmmmm....
June 3rd, 2012
1:21 pm
@NorthAtlantaTeacher
“mostly it’s grade motivated, not learning motivated…”
I would submit most parents understand the correlation between “learning”, “good grades”, and “successful career” is inter-related. For you to question the parents’ “motivation” is doing a disservice to those same parents
SB
June 3rd, 2012
1:23 pm
It is very simplistic thinking to assume that differences in academic performance stem from one factor (parents, wealth, etc…) Many many factors play into this equation. Wealth, parents, parent’s education, teachers, schools, etc… together can create a difference in how students perform. Hence, kids that go to really poor performing schools, manage to be successful students perhaps because where they lack in one area, it’s made up for another. Instead of blaming parents, we need to be coming up with solutions so that all students can be successful. Some may think it’s not their problem, but it will be everybody’s problem if we are unwilling to do what we can because at some point those students will either become successfully educated tax paying citizens or potential drains on society. And, everyone, regardless of where you come from or who you come from, deserves a chance at success.
Hmmmmm....
June 3rd, 2012
1:37 pm
“…coming up up with solutions so that all students can be successful”
All???
A bit pie in the sky, don’t you think??
HS Math Teacher
June 3rd, 2012
1:50 pm
White students for Saw Mill Central in Pert-Near Florida outperform white students from Buffy&Biff High in north Metro Atlanta (99% are white). Now, there’s a headline.
Attentive Parent
June 3rd, 2012
1:55 pm
“As for what schools are supposed to do with kids who come from less than ideal homes, I don’t know. I think that’s always been public ed’s biggest obstacle.”
Why Common Core has that all planned out as does Robert Avossa under that awful Charter that just went effective to bring the North Fulton schools down to the APS/Dekalb dysfunction.
I really do not mean that jokingly. More like painful irony but everything about Common Core involves chaging the nature of schools in the US to cater to “the 80% of students who would never do well in a traditional transmission of knowledge curriculum.”
On APS they are very excited about the new definition of student achievement Georgia has developed under its NCLB waiver. The Deputy Super I heard talking about it said it would really help with dealing with the anger over redistricting and the cheating scandal because “it would make them look good.”
It’s always good to change the measurements if you are unwilling to change policies and practices.
Part of what is wrong in Dekalb and APS and is soon, unfortunately, to be ailing in Fulton and Cobb goes back to which districts went aggressively to outcomes based education in the 1990s. And never left.
When OBE became notorious for its poor academic results, the approach was to rename it. The name chosen was the Partnership for Quality Learning. I wish Georgia’s legislators had known that when they adopted the new statute tying Quality Learning as the new measure of student achievement.
http://www.invisibleserfscollar.com/why-quality-learning-may-be-the-last-thing-you-want-for-your-child/ is the posting I wrote today on what Quality Learning really is. And Quality Education.
Yes I did use my Attentive Parent Glossary on that one. Please don’t take it personally Georgia though. Right now it’s the Australians pouring in to read about Education for all and Outcomes Based Education.
Cause it turns out our Common Core implementation looks just like their Australian Core Skills Framework.
Small world.
bu2
June 3rd, 2012
2:00 pm
Valid Point makes just that. I imagine the white students taking the SAT in North Atlanta, Lakeside, etc. have a much higher average family income and parental education level than the suburban schools’ students.
Until you factor that in, its just like comparing Walton HS to Tower HS. The demographics are different. White people are not all just alike.
bu2
June 3rd, 2012
2:04 pm
@Maureen
How many of your Decatur teachers with families live in Decatur or nearby? Many teachers in Dekalb County live in Gwinnett because the homes in safe neighborhoods with good schools are more affordable there. Decatur can get good teachers primarily because of the schools, not where they are located. A teacher’s salary has to really be stretched to live in Decatur.
northatlantateacher
June 3rd, 2012
2:12 pm
@Hmmm:
“I would submit most parents understand the correlation between “learning”, “good grades”, and “successful career” is inter-related. For you to question the parents’ “motivation” is doing a disservice to those same parents”
I would hope that understanding would be there too. A large number (I do not have the data in front of me) of incoming college freshmen must take remedial courses. These are HS graduates, often with a 3.0 and higher, sometimes even honors grads, from “good” suburban public schools. Another thing to consider is the large college drop out rate. These kids got in to good colleges based on high HS GPAs, in part.
Maureen Downey
June 3rd, 2012
2:14 pm
@bu2, Not too sure of firm numbers. I know that two of my favorite teachers live in Lakeside and their kids went to DeKalb schools.
I had a neighbor in Decatur who taught in DeKalb and her children attended DeKalb schools. It just made her life easier for them to travel with her every day — she was a single parent and after-school was less of an issue once her kids went with her.
However, at least two of my twins’ elementary school teachers lived in Decatur and their kids went to Decatur schools. At least two others lived in other counties and their kids attended Decatur schools.
Our middle school principal lives in Henry. Some of the younger teachers — without kids — live in Atlanta.
Maureen
B. Killebrew
June 3rd, 2012
2:21 pm
And let’s not forget about some other suburban schools on the list that are fairly similar to the urban schools–and are also doing a great job:
Wheeler
North Springs
Norcross
Marietta
Centennial (not really as “urban-nesque,” but it is great that it is ranked high–this school is slighly more urban than the other North Fulton schools)
Anonmom
June 3rd, 2012
2:32 pm
I think we may be going about things all wrong. We have this mass assumption that everyone “needs” an education. Everyone “needs” go to college. Everyone “needs” to get great SAT scores. I think what every child “needs” is a lifelong passion and pursuit that they really love, that they are really good at, that they can find satisfaction with and that they can earn an income with. For some families and some chldren, this incldues college and grad schools. For other children, it may be auto mechanics or plumbing. Society needs all types of people being good at all sorts of skills. Historically, people learned and went down different paths depending on their families, their backgrounds, their abilities and their interests. We are spending billions, if not trillions of dollars, trying to fit all of our children into this “school” mold to get them “educated” and wondering and worrying about losing all these kids at 15 and 16. If we were to learn from history and really look at what other societies are doing, without restricting options, we might be able to find a better, more effiecient and more effective paradigm, that allowed for all of children, to find a skill set to do what they love and what they are good at to earn a living…… without restricing and watch them grow. But this isn’t what the founders of our public system of education really had in mind when the system was set up at the end of the 19th century. I submit that it is what we now need.
Anonmom
June 3rd, 2012
2:37 pm
By way of anecdote, I was reading a story about a top chef about to set sail on a Holland American ship as a ‘celebrety’ chef on a few upcoming cruises and he was discussing how he became a chef … he was British and he always loved to cook (I couldn’t tell how old he was). When he was 15 he set off from Brittain to the continent to learn from the French chefs, who were brutal. Then he wound up at a German hotel, where he really learned how to cook. They told him he was awful. Then he wound up with an opportunity to work back in Brittain under some French chefs… and that where he really learned how to cook. Now he’s in charge of a number of kitchens in Phoenix — he’s very successful. Where’s the schooling? It’s all an apprentice-based system (again, I’m not sure of the age) — this type of training worked for centuries…..
Teacher of 20 years
June 3rd, 2012
2:45 pm
Yes, we can agree that parenting is the primary reason why some of our children do not have great success in school. Parental involvement is very important for the success of our students succeding in the classroom. However, because teachers know parents don’t care…then they don’t care. I have worked in school where over 50% of the teachers don’t teach. They pretend to teach, but because no one -parents or adminstration team are not making them accountable they fake teaching to our students. I also have seen in school where teachers are ill-prepared to teach. It goes both ways. From what I have saw in the last years in teaching in about three of four different schools in Atlanta,black teachers and, I am a black teacher, seems to find it easiest to just give up on teaching a child who parents don’t show involvement. Blame why our children is not making progress is not just on the parents the teachers too are giving up on teaching our kids. If teachers would hold up to their part of the bargin- teaching our kids would be a different outcome in students’ achievments. But if this testiment is not substantial enough, prove me wrong by taking a camera into 5 classes, 10, if you think I am exaggerating in the Atlanta Public Schools, and then record the teachers and see for yourself if they are fully focus on teaching the kids or just doing something to make the day pass by.
Tabitha
June 3rd, 2012
2:55 pm
Maureen needs to work on her skills a bit.
I don’t know the intown schools but i do know Walton and Wheeler high schools in East Cobb. If Marureen’s chart “proves” that Wheeler is a better school than Walton, Maureen needs a new chart.
HS Math Teacher
June 3rd, 2012
3:40 pm
Anonmom: I agree with you. It seems the people in the golden dome, the Sloppy Floyd Bld. idgits, and a good portion in the golden doughnut we affectionately call east coast melting pot (know-it-all yankees & forget my small town near-do-wells) seem to think that every kid can & will want to learn what works out to be a college prep (at min.) curriculum. It’s a shame this idiotic mentality is perpetuated by the university egg-head elite who have it ‘Piled High & Deep’ (Ph.D). These people know their fancy cheese & wine, but can’t pour pee out of boot, much less scare up a date on fright night.
TheGoldenRam
June 3rd, 2012
3:41 pm
I’ve long considered the following article as one of the best summations of the difficulties in addressing the achievement gap. Sadly, it doesn’t offer any easy solutions. Because there aren’t any.
What’s Holding Black Kids Back?
http://www.city-journal.org/html/15_2_holding.html
I’m a 38 yr-old white man that had a privileged upbringing. Mom was a public school teacher. Dad was an options trader, business owner and very successful entrepreneur. My brother and I both attended a prestigious private school for our entire K-12 education. Public universities for college.
A number of years ago, I asked my parents why it was that they sent us to private school. Was it because the school was academically superior to the public school we were zoned for? No. Our public school was pretty good. The reason was because our parents wanted us raised in a “culture of achievement and success”. Not just in our home, but in as much of our surrounding environment as they could influence. There are certainly no guarantees, but there is little doubt that there are profound cultural advantages to growing up in a world of doctors, lawyers, politicians, professors, business owners & a multitude of other ‘achiever’ types. And ‘achiever’ types do come in many, many forms. Some of the highest performing students at our school were those that would have been considered to be at the margin of handling the financial challenge of attendance. Those parents made the greatest sacrifices just to get their kids in the door and those kids knew it. And they lived up to it. I love my parents. They made for an amazing upbringing. I owe it to them more than anything, for being who I am today. However, the realist in me also knows that had the choice been between them taking a second job and me going to the fancy school, there would have been no fancy schooling.
I consider great parents of all backgrounds to be the very noblest of all of us.
I grew up on a small estate that was part of a neighborhood of probably twenty families. If we saw a black person in our neighborhood he or she was invariably some form of “the help”. There was some “old south” bigotry, but my generation was being raised in a rapidly changing world. Our immediate neighbors were some of the most educated, intelligent, socially aware, progressively-minded and innately kind people you could ever meet. I have never heard an ill-word spoken of them in my entire life. They are the very embodiment of honor and decency. They too made a profound impression upon me growing up. They were my second set of parents. Their sons were our brothers. Interesting factoid: They are also direct descendants of Robert E. Lee.
When in college pursuing a Master’s degree in History, I remember being shocked at the initial realization that the very highest performers in our program were a handful of black students from Africa. Then I came to know them and understand that they carried with them an extraordinary sense of personal expectation and drive. Meticulous attention to detail, verbal articulation and diction that exceeded that of almost all of us “indigenous” students and an immense appreciation for the value and importance of education. Their cultural expectation for pursuing education really did exceed our own.
I have a black man as my attorney. My primary care doctor is a black women. She was an immigrant from Kenya that graduated at the top of her class from the Yale School of Medicine. She is wicked smart. I chose these people on merit. For their character and ability. Their skin color is meaningless to my intentions.
I believe that if we are to effectively address the most difficult issues that face us in life, the answer will always be found in education. Yet we need a revolution in regards to how culture relates to education. We need to change behavior & change value systems. That starts in families and communities of people. There is no replacement for those things. We chase after all of the symptoms because that’s easier than facing the uncomfortable truths about from where these problems originate. We can play this game forever, but we shouldn’t really expect anything to change.
a_mom
June 3rd, 2012
3:49 pm
@Just A Grunt 9:49am – You nailed it on the head. The argument has always been wealthy white kids (or even wealthy black kids) do better in schools, as if the house you live in makes the difference. What really makes the difference is that those kids have parents who studied hard as kids & it paid off for them in terms of a better career.
But then why do the Asians always do so well? There are many, many Asians who came here with their poor, immigrant parents. But their parents really value education as a way out of poverty and make their kids study and expect good grades, or else! If they want to blame school drop outs on financial status, then let’s be fair & see a chart of ALL kids by race in the low-economic sector… white, black, Asian, & hispanic. I’d almost bet the ranking of high school performance among poor kids would be as follows: 1) Asian, 2) white, 3) hispanic, 4) black. But you’ll NEVER see a breakdown like that because then you’d have to point the finger at black parents… and that isn’t politically correct.
The school you attend is important, to be sure. But an even greater factor for school success is the parents! Even the best teacher can’t make her students do their homework, study for tests, or be in bed on time each night. Too many (not all) parents in the poor, black community don’t place a high enough value on a good education & the hard work & effort it takes to get one.
TK
June 3rd, 2012
3:55 pm
To mike & Jack…It is does not come down to parenting. There are studies that show that regardless to parents going to PTA or not, students (KIDS) thrive because of their own will to do better. However, there are plenty of parents that educate their kids and can not make it to PTA, which is not anymore important than a white or asian parent aspectations. Your views are yours alone and a bunch of crap. I am a black women with an education and kids and my expectation to my kids regardless if I make it to PTA’s are to excel in all they do. By the way, we do not live in the inner city but my kids get straight A’s every year. If you grew up in Atlanta you’d know the inner city schools were not made of white and asian students until the last 10 years. With whites and asians moving into the inner city and school administration being bought with high property taxes from these people schools have become better because 10 years prior the inner city school were made up on majority kids that were not getting a decent education and that’s the bottomline. It should not be about who lives where because it’s educational discrimination.
reality
June 3rd, 2012
4:06 pm
May have something to do with IQ. The schools with lots of low-IQ kids perform poorly.
TheGoldenRam
June 3rd, 2012
4:40 pm
@ Teacher of 20 years
Sadly, your observations reflect a pattern we also see down here in our Florida county. Schools with very little parental participation become dumping grounds for the unmotivated, ineffective teachers and administrators. The district doesn’t want these folks(especially the friends and family members) to lose their jobs, but they also can’t deal with the blow-back from highly involved parents at “good” schools. So the powers that be pile their ‘adult’ baggage on the backs of children already suffering from a disproportionate amount of adversity. To me, that behavior is criminal. Any wonder why the next step for so many ‘disadvantaged’ schools is cheating & manipulation. Promoting unprepared children & changing test scores are crimes committed against children by adults for the benefit of themselves and other adults. The APS cheating scandal is the absolute definition of “the soft bigotry of low expectations”. The fact that this behavior was/is allowed to persist is a huge ‘cultural’ failing. The scariest part is that a culture that fails in these ways causes an exponential growth in the conditions that breed future failure. It’s also amazing that a crime of that scale, with literally thousands of victims; never leads to any arrests, convictions or even fines. Rob a convenience store, go to prison. Rob 10,000 kids of a fair education, go to Hawaii? Public schools are often targets of unfair attacks, but so many times they’re also their own worst enemy.
Teacher of truth
June 3rd, 2012
4:40 pm
How many of us in Atlanta are aware of how in the Northern school zone in Atlanta that grade inflation is a major problem! The testing mindset is coming back to haunt the US students’ ! How would dare talk about the mindset of north end students! Can 150 students really define the value of a school!
Opine
June 3rd, 2012
4:52 pm
The race is not a predictor like income status and educational levels of parents. Compare Whites of varying income levels and you will see. Unfortunately, in America, race is often determined to be a predictor since race has been historically intertwined with opportunities for income and education until modern times. Nevertheless, it is good to see a conversation initiated or reinitiated and infused with another perspective.
Intown white high school students outperform suburban counterparts - City-Data Forum
June 3rd, 2012
4:53 pm
[...] Intown white high school students outperform suburban counterparts This is a very appropriate topic for this forum. The reason I am posting this is to show that a student can receive a good education in all parts of Metro Atlanta. Whether a family wants intown/urban, an inner suburb, a middle suburb, an outer suburb, or exurban/semi-rural, there are a plethora of good school options. Many people on here try to make the "suburban/urban-OTP/ITP" situation an "either or" scenario. It is not. The beauty of Metro Atlanta is that people in any stage of life can find a living situation that meets their personal tastes and needs. It is "both and," not "either or." Anyway–Enjoy! Not true that urban schools fail all students: Intown white high school students outperform suburban… [...]
School Ratings Thread - READ FIRST for school inquiries. - Page 45 - City-Data Forum
June 3rd, 2012
4:59 pm
[...] Not true that urban schools fail all students: Intown white high school students outperform suburban… [...]
Randy
June 3rd, 2012
5:38 pm
Want your kid to do well on the SAT or ACT? Try this then.
1. Give your child a two parent family with both parents giving the child attention.
2. Read to your child from an early age until he/she reads on his/her own.
3. Take your child to the library. Spend more time there than on the ball fields or basketball courts. More kids make it to med school than the NBA.
4. Monitor your child’s homework until graduation.
5. Meet with teachers regularly and get involved at the school.
6. Let your child know you expect proper behavior at school.
7. Support the teachers.
Will your child get as good of an education at a public school as at Westminster or Lovett? Definitely not, largely because the discipline is not there and the public schools have “dumbed down.” But the playing field will become more level as time goes on. Plus, your child will have the advantage of going to public school with more normal kids, and you’ll save thousands of dollars a year.
Hmmmmm.....
June 3rd, 2012
6:31 pm
TK…please site those studies where they proclaim parenting/parental involvement has no impact on educational achievement
A Conservative Voice
June 3rd, 2012
6:33 pm
Private Schools is best, y’all…….
bootney farnsworth
June 3rd, 2012
7:44 pm
a thank you to TK for illustrating the problems we face every day.
some people fight for their right not to be involved
if you don’t think parental involvement is the single major role after a child’s natural abilities
you’re either: dumb, stupid, ignorant, deluded, just don’t give a damn
and very probably educated in the morass of APS, DCSS, Clayton, South Fulton, and growing
segment of Cobb & Gwinnett
another comment
June 3rd, 2012
7:51 pm
Perhaps the reason that so many Georgia Schools are doing so poorly is as the front page of Sunday’s AJC says, that over 55% of all births in Georgia are covered by Medicad. Since, the majority of the state is still white, that would include alot of white births as well. Something is big time wrong in this state. What is wrong when in 2012, that people are getting pregnant and having babies that they can not even afford to pay for their birth.
I did not have either of my children until I could afford them. That was in my 30’s. That might be why my children and other’s like mine will do better.
I grew up in a working class family, but my family paid for all the births for their 4 children all by c-section. They never took food stamps, or free lunch or anything like that they could have qualified for. There is a thing called pride. Which might be why 3 out of 4 of us have college degree’s and my brother makes more than two of the ones with college degree’s working 28 years for a Union Printer.
bootney farnsworth
June 3rd, 2012
7:55 pm
I did a quick google on POSITIVE impact of parental involvement in education
only 3,260,000 hits
parental involvement has no impact my ass
northatlantateacher
June 3rd, 2012
7:57 pm
@another comment: ???? Where do you get your information that “Georgia schools are doing poorly?” Do you really believe that? Did you read the post?
bootney farnsworth
June 3rd, 2012
8:00 pm
the single best thing for a child’s educational prospects?
Mom & Dad, together, at home.
the single worst thing for a child’s educational prospects?
raised in a low income black single mother household.
sorry, but there it is.
Anonmom
June 3rd, 2012
8:00 pm
Honsetly, some of the great SAT score is innate ability — I knew my middle guy was going to score well in 7th grade when he was still in public school– he’s got a high IQ and he’s a gifted test taker. I’m not sure that his SAT score — which is very high — would be any better (when I’m honest about it) if he were in public school vs. our fancy private school — it’s the rest of his education which is much better. The fact that he’s in the National Merit seimfinalist group (probably as commended since we don’t have the cut scores yet) is probably different being private because they handle PSAT testing differently. I also expect that this coming year we will see more private kids hit the cut score mark on the PSAT for National Merit because this group of kids is going through on the “new math” (before it was changed under Dr. Barge) and the private schools really didn’t ever adjust their math curriculum such that the private school kids have had more “consistent” math from the “get go” and the public school kids have had more “tinkering” with math. This is a benefit to private school (this is a double-edged sword — you can be in a bad private school and get bad curriculum — e.g. “earth is flat religious stuf…..” — I”m just saying).
bootney farnsworth
June 3rd, 2012
8:02 pm
@ northatlanta,
do you not read the papers? we annually come in around 47th out the the 50 (or 57 if you
go by Obama’s count) states.
Clayton, APS, DCSS have all had major SACS issues.
Anonmom
June 3rd, 2012
8:02 pm
I’m thinking my boarding school idea for kids deserted by parents may have some merit…… ?
bootney farnsworth
June 3rd, 2012
8:05 pm
do you want your kids to be successful in school?
A-don’t have kids until married
B-stay married, in the same house
C-turn off the TV
D-be involved, especially the father.
E-stay involved
again, this ain’t rocket science
bootney farnsworth
June 3rd, 2012
8:07 pm
@ anonmon,
flesh it out a bit more.
meantime, what about sterilizing people who abandon their children?
northatlantateacher
June 3rd, 2012
8:15 pm
@bootney: If I hear one more person refer to that completely stupid ranking system, I might scream. It uses SAT scores. Just about every student in GA takes it, whereas in other states (interestingly, the highest ranked ones!) only a small percentage (tends to be top students applying to universities that look for the SAT vs ACT) take it while others take the ACT.
There is currently no valid way to rank states, but that’s all about to change when Common Core gets down to business.
I don’t know why this is, and I don’t really care how it came to be. I only wish people would stop referring to it as some holy gospel of truth. I absolutely agree we have room for improvement in our state, but I’d venture to guess this is true of every state in our fine country. We all have problems and not enough solutions.
Dunwoody Parent
June 3rd, 2012
8:22 pm
I don’t see Dunwoody High School in the top 25? What were their scores?
Jarod Apperson
June 3rd, 2012
8:52 pm
@Dunwoody Parent. Dunwoody High School wasn´t far behind. Their three-year average was 1106.
Attentive Parent
June 3rd, 2012
9:03 pm
I north atlanta teacher you know good and well in the formative assessment world of Common Core, there’s no way to rank states.
Heck I asked Martha Reichrath how you could even measure individual student’s growth and achievement if the assessments were group projects and engaging in the assigned activity.
She said with that annoyed look of hers that “we did say they were PERFORMANCE assessments.”
Cut the talking points garbage. The reason I initially knew common core was a scam was the inability to rank given the subjective based on a rubric assessments.
catlady
June 3rd, 2012
9:11 pm
I think the reason many poor kids don’t see the “connection” between education and earnings is because they know so few people around them who have a college education ( or, sadly, even a high school diploma). They don’t see people “like them” getting ahead due to education. They might get ahead by selling drugs, or being in a gang, but there is a huge lack of “neighborhood people” who have stayed in school and succeeded. Frequently, because of the youthfulness of their “parents”, the parents also haven’t made that connection. When all your family has a baby by the time they are 15, you may not think of any kind of a life but that one.
I still recommend bloggers read, “Promises I can Keep.” It is an ethnographical study of white, black, and Latino women, and why they put motherhood before marriage. In the book, one of the authors notes that she had a baby during the study, while she was in her 30s. The women she was studying immediately assumed that she had “proven the doctor wrong” and FINALLY gotten pregnant. It did not occur to them that she had postponed motherhood ON PURPOSE.
Jerry Eads
June 3rd, 2012
9:12 pm
Just a caution: Remember that SAT-taking is a voluntary “sport.” While I am absolutely certain there are superbly-run schools, fantastic teachers, and strong hard-working students both inside as well as outside the beltway, using the SAT – one of the best-made tests in the world – as the sole benchmark for school performance can be every bit as misleading as using the pass rates on the – low bid – state minimum competency tests, even though the reasons are quite different. In order to compare schools on SAT achievement, one would have to know that roughly the same percentage of students took the test (if only 10% of the students in an innter city school took the test and 50% took the test at the “outer city” school, the average SAT darn well BETTER be higher for the innter city school), and that some effort was made to measure socioeconomic level of the students (a reasonable predictor of how much “value” a school must add to get equivalent output). Without those data, SAT comparisons aren’t very helpful.
Several folks mentioned motivation. I proctor the SAT for a classroom full of kids every now and then. Given I’ve had some 25 years experience in various aspects of measurement, testing and assessment at local, state and national levels, it’s an interesting experience. The most enlightening aspect, though, is that there’s a FULL range of motivation every time – from those who are shooting for a 2400 to those who half-heartedly bubble in some answers for a few minutes and then sleep. THAT reminds me of the folly of using student testing to evaluate schools.
catlady
June 3rd, 2012
9:22 pm
Thank you, Jerry, for your voice of sanity!
Ant
June 3rd, 2012
9:43 pm
Reading the comments brought back memories of my own education in NYC. They realized long ago that all kids are not destined for college and created vocational high schools that teach everything from aviation maintenance,merchant marine skills,Home renovation,etc. These schools require testing to enter and cater to students all over the city like magnet programs.Oh btw,these aren’t high schools teaching these courses as electives..These are high schools with a subject matter focus on the specific careers.Maybe it’s time we provide other avenues here in Atlanta for kids who won’t make it for whatever reason.
another comment
June 3rd, 2012
10:02 pm
The biggest advantage that the White and Asian kids experiance in the Close-in or in-town Schools which are Minority Majority, the kids that are true University Material get to take smaller size AP and Honor Class sizes. The schools basically seperate out into different schools.
The thing that is the real killer is when you are a 5A school, because you have 2,200 students, but you have 40% hispanic and 39% of the Hispanic population do not participate in any sports. So you really should be like a Division III school for supports. You also have virtually no booster clubs. B ecause Less than 15% can not support a school forever.
Ed Johnson
June 3rd, 2012
10:16 pm
@TBTG, no fan of Sowell, here, but this resonates for its applicability to so-called “urban” school systems:
“seldom…has this attention been directed…toward how the less economically successful…might improve themselves by availing themselves of the culture of others around them.”
–Thomas Sowell
A plausible interpretation for APS: Seldom has attention been directed toward how APS might improve itself by availing itself of non-urban, non-predominately “Black” school systems.
Atlanta Mom
June 3rd, 2012
10:16 pm
Anonmom,
You stated that your child has high SAT scores and probably would have in a public school as well. I appreciate that acknowledgement.
Hmmmmm.....
June 3rd, 2012
10:20 pm
Ant……love the concept! Would seem those trades would be infinitely more useful and lucrative than a typical BA degree in History, Psychology, or English at any given Liberal Arts U
Atlanta Mom
June 3rd, 2012
10:25 pm
I’d like some help please. Over the years I’ve spent a good amount of time at the Ga. Doe site, but I don’t recall SAT scores broken out by race. And as I try to find that information, I am unsuccessful. Will some one give me one link that shows one school’s SAT information by race? Thanks.
Hillbilly D
June 3rd, 2012
10:47 pm
One thing I’ve always wondered about SAT scores is how do you compare somebody who takes it once, against somebody who takes it several times? Just for argument’s sake, assuming both students are relatively equal, the one who takes it several times, should have the better score just by having more than one to pick from.
Ant’
That’s a good approach that I think should be tried. They could start on a small scale and see how it works. I know that all those years ago when I was in high school (in GA), everybody was encouraged to take the SAT. All through school, it was assumed everyone should go to college. Remember, colleges and universities are big business. There’s some turf protecting there, in my opinion.
Ron F.
June 3rd, 2012
10:58 pm
bootney: not to nitpick, but I am a full-time single dad raising two boys completely by myself. Long story, but they’re my nephews and I’ve had them since they were early toddlers. They’re both honors level students and have all the educational aspirations anyone could hope for a kid to have. They’ve been raised in a home focused on them, to the exclusion of all else, and it shows. They’re happy, well-adjusted kids who are fully aware of what they came from and what they have. Now, while I agree that it’s better for kids to have two stable, devoted parents, I happen to know for a fact that parental devotion, even if it’s from one parent, can produce incredibly successful people. I get a little irked by the assumption many have here that single parents are inherently bad for kids. I teach a lot of kids from single-mother, single-father, extended relative guardian households who are actually growing up to be pretty darn good people. It’s not the number or gender of parents that determines success, it’s the commitment of whatever parenting figure along with involvement in the child’s life both in and out of school that ultimately determines success.
Dr. Craig Spinks/ Georgians for Educational Excellence
June 4th, 2012
3:00 am
KUDOS to the students at these and all other GA high schools whose Reading and Math skills propelled them to high scores on the SAT.
Lee
June 4th, 2012
6:24 am
Another “Well, doh” topic.
It is really a numbers game in play here. Mom and Dad of a rural area have a child who has an above average IQ. That child grows up and goes off to attend the University, where he/she meets other above average IQ people and eventually marries one. The newlyweds do not go back to Rural, GA to raise a family but instead settle where the jobs are that they can use their education. They have a child who most likely also has an above average IQ. That child grows up to take the SAT and the metro area schools pat themselves on the back for doing such a good job.
These urban white students are concentrated in a few areas exclusive to above average IQ parents who have the financial means to live there whereas the outlying schools have a greater cross section of the IQ normal distribution.
Be interesting to post the black SAT scores from these same schools. Any takers on what would be the outcome?
mountain man
June 4th, 2012
7:05 am
Maureen, you tread on dangerous ground here. The racists could take your data and say that it proves that blacks are racially inferior to whites in the intelligence area.
What it really proves is what I have been saying all along – schools don’t affect the outcomes – students and parents do.
And finally, using SAT scores doesn’t give a good picture of a school because all students are not required to take the SAT.
Dunwoody Mom
June 4th, 2012
8:01 am
@Atlanta Mom. Go tot he following link:
http://archives.gadoe.org/ReportingFW.aspx?PageReq=211&PID=61&PTID=67&CTID=217&SchoolId=ALL&T=0&FY=2011&key=D
Choose a school.
Click on “Report Card” on the left-hand side of the screen.
Click on the “National Tests” Tab
Click on the “SAT Recent” Tab – this gives the scores of first-time test takers.
You will see the scores broken down by subgroup.
Anonmom
June 4th, 2012
10:57 am
The National Merit competition actually has some “side” competition for black and hispanic kids … there is a way to search for the cut scores going back 3-5 years and you can see the range — the national merit cut scores (all races) are significantly higher than the black/hispanic cut scores. Just fyi — the GA cut score for National Merit last year was a 218 which was much higher than “normal” — in prior years it has hovered around a 214 — NY, NJ and Mass are north of a 222 in most years and some states dip as low as a 208 (for what this means, add a 0 to the score for the 3 part SAT score). The minority scores are south of 200.
Atlanta Mom
June 4th, 2012
12:55 pm
Thanks Dunwoody Mom,
I had looked under “highest scores” and that information is not available, but sure enough, it was under “recent”.
Tom Bop
June 4th, 2012
1:34 pm
The racial aspects of these stories/studies really bothers me. There is no difference caused by race in the academic performance- kids who come from a culture that stresses academic performance who receive the structure and support they need do well, whether white, black, yellow, or green! Beyond that, some kids care and will do well no matter what, others don’t, and won’t work no matter how much they get. It doesn’t cost a cent, or require a government program for parents to start asking their kids everyday about school & make sure they are doing what they need to do to get where they want to go in life. All this race classification does is fuel the “race industry” and hold the kids back with low expectations.
William Casey
June 4th, 2012
2:46 pm
PARENTAL INVOLVEMENT is the obvious lynchpin of a child’s academic success. My son’s Mom was a superior Language Arts teacher at St. Pius for a decade. I was a superior history teacher in Fulton for two decades. We both have Master’s degrees. Most importantly, our TOP PRIORITY was our son’s development. He grew up competing with US in a myriad of activities….. board games, intricate puzzles, Trivial Pursuit, card games. Does anyone believe that there is anything a school can do to “level the playing field” for kids who don’t have that advantage? Race and even income pale in comparison as factors.
However, there’s more to it than that. Education’s “dirty-little-secret is that WHO your classmates are is of vital importance. As my son approached high school, it became obvious that his academic strength and interest was mathematics (go figure.) I also learned that the then newly opening Northview HS was going to have a large Asian population. I immediately transferred there for the express purpose of taking him with me and getting him in all those AP classes with Asian kids. It worked. He will graduate university in 2013 with dual degrees in math and philosophy. He has worked for the university as a math tutor since the beginning of his soph year. That’s how schools work.
Lee
June 4th, 2012
7:19 pm
So, @Wm Casey posts the following: “I also learned that the then newly opening Northview HS was going to have a large Asian population. I immediately transferred there for the express purpose of taking him with me and getting him in all those AP classes with Asian kids.”
Not one peep in nearly five hours decrying the racial aspect of it. But let someone post that blacks have a lower IQ than the other races and the politically correct pathogens fall over themselves calling you a racist.
Fifty years of politically correct indoctrination has done it’s job.
Interesting….
bootney farnsworth
June 4th, 2012
9:41 pm
@ Ron
I have no doubt you’re a good parent. and I know of several instances where single parents have done great work under bad circumstances.
there are exceptions to every rule.
but on the whole I stand by my comments.
Anonmom
June 4th, 2012
10:00 pm
Just fyi — My 2 older sons have gone through college testing — my oldest is going to be a college junior — my middle guy a high school senior and appears to have made the first cut for National Merit, at least for commended status. We have a younger son as well. 3 boys. Same parents. Same house — different educational expeiences because it turns out the oldest was our guinea pig. Different IQs but all 3 tested into the DCSS Gifted program — oldest in 3rd grade, middle in kindergarten and youngest in 1st grade. The middle one is highly” gifted — the others just smart. The oldest could not break a 600 on any part of the SAT — the PSAT — the SAT2s if his life depended on it. He had tutors. He took the blasted tests a number of times. He just wasn’t good at them (in his defense, neither are his parents). He finally cracked a 27 on the ACT. He’s lucky because his parents know how to get tutors and can figure out that if the SAT isn’t working — dump it and shift to the ACT — schools don’t need SAT scores. His brother was shooting for a 2400 and almost got it — he’s a very gifted test taker. He’s also very smart. I think I’ll have the youngest skip the SAT altogether and go straight to the ACT…. I’m not sure how much the “home environment” has to do with this…. it helps but it isn’t everything. My youngest has a good friend who scored an 800 on math in 7th grade — he’s very smart, Asian, and a good test taker. Some kids just get it.
School quality and "inputs"
June 5th, 2012
12:34 am
This is the pretty close to being the same Get Schooled blog post published 1.5 years ago, but it’s more misleading.
The first one, at least, had this very important caveat by the reader who compiled the statistics:
“Now, this data certainly do not prove that APS, Decatur and DeKalb are doing a ‘better job’ or providing a ‘better education’ to their white students than every other district in the state — far from it. What is equally or more likely is that other critical demographic factors at play (especially parent education and income levels) are more favorable for white students in those districts than in most others.”
This time around, though, caution is thrown to the wind, with Mr. Apperson writing:
“What this table tells us is that Metro Atlanta´s schools are producing outcomes similar to their inputs.”
It does not tell us this at all, for the reason that the earlier data compiler stated. Mr. Apperson wants to judge school quality by what school do with like “inputs”, but the only “input” characteristic he controls for is race, meaning that he treats all whites as alike, with no regard for the economic status or educational levels of the parents (or anything else). I understand that that data may not be available to him, but that doesn’t mean it’s less needed in order to make the claim he wishes to make.
Now, as the first data compiler pointed out, if the claim is more modest, if it’s simply a rejoinder to a claim, based *only* on average SAT scores, that intown schools are worse than suburban schools, then that’s more supportable.
Ron F.
June 5th, 2012
3:55 pm
“I know of several instances where single parents have done great work under bad circumstances.”
While I respect your opinion and wholeheartedly appreciate your demeanor in general, I think you need to get to know more kids from alternate parental settings. You’d be surprised how many “exceptions” there are out there and how well-adjusted and intelligent those kids are. It truly is about the devotion to the children, and that can come from a variety of settings and be successful. You’d probably be surprised by many of these kids and the number of them that exist.