Not true that urban schools fail all students: Intown white high school students outperform suburban counterparts.
Jarod Apperson, a Midtown reader, sent me an interesting analysis of Georgia SAT scores, similar to one that I ran a few years ago, showing that white students in metro schools outperform suburban counterparts. Except he went a bit deeper.
Here is why he compiled the data and what he hopes we learn from it:
Since my analysis has some newer data and focuses on specific schools, people might still be interested in it. I think the fact that North Atlanta is the No. 3 public school in the state for white high school students could be a strong talking point for APS school chief Erroll B. Davis trying to get more middle-class families to stay in the public education system.
It’s a narrative that’s not heard enough.
To answer your question about how I came to look at this, I became interested in education reform a few years ago when I read a book by Paul Tough called “Whatever it Takes.” I’ve always felt that excellent public education was the best way to create economic mobility between classes.
Unfortunately, what we’ve seen for years is that schools are as good (or bad) as their inputs. In recent years, a couple of schools have shown capacity to completely alter outcomes and that gets me excited.
And here is his explanation of his chart:
The story of Metro Atlanta’s school quality has followed a consistent beat for the past 40 years. You have no doubt heard that inner-city schools are failing while schools outside the Northern Perimeter (particularly North Fulton, Cobb, and Gwinnett) are excelling. I suspect you will be interested, as I was, to find that data made available by the Governor`s Office does not support this commonly held belief.
Nationwide, there is a significant achievement gap between white/Asian students and their black/Hispanic counterparts. As such, school “quality” measures, without consideration of demographics, can become merely a function of inputs rather than a true measure of a schools’ impact on its students.
One of the less discussed components of President Bush´s controversial No Child Left Behind Act is the requirement that states break out student performance at a demographic level. As a result of the act, a wealth of detailed performance data, including demographics, has become available in recent years.
An analysis of SAT performance for Metro Atlanta´s white, public high school students yields some expected and unexpected results. As you might expect, 16 of the 25 top-performing public high schools are located in North Fulton, Cobb, or Gwinnett.
However, the very top of the list is dominated by schools inside the perimeter. Six of the 7 top performing high schools in Metro Atlanta are located inside the perimeter, with Chamblee Charter, North Atlanta, and Decatur leading the way.
What this table tells us is that Metro Atlanta´s schools are producing outcomes similar to their inputs. Intown schools have not found a way to dramatically improve outcomes for their disadvantaged students, but their wealthier, white students are doing just fine.
In fact, those white students are outperforming their suburban counterparts.
If you and your family have been considering an in-town move, but fears over school performance have held you back, it´s time to take a second look.
–From Maureen Downey for the AJC Get Schooled blog
NOTE: The data used in this analysis comprises Math and Verbal Scores for the SAT in the years 2009 through 2011. This data was retrieved from the Governor´s Office of Student Achievement on June 2, 2012. Data also including writing scores was not available at a demographically distinct level.
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136 comments Add your comment
Hugh Beaumont.
June 3rd, 2012
11:22 am
@Jarod. Sure, but if we are comparing same school scores by race, the income zone for that school is moot, for anyone attending that school would be in that higher income zone. But regardless, successful parents raise successful children, nothing earth shattering there.
Hmmmmm.....
June 3rd, 2012
11:26 am
@NorthAtlantaTeacher:
Why the importance on the motivation of the parental involvment? It’s either there or not, correct? As for quality?….please explain if you will
Second, agree that socioeconomic status is also a strong predictor. That said, their is higher proportion of African-American and Hispanics who are poor….so, ergo….race does matter, No?? What I mean to say is….if you’re black or brown, you’re more likely to be poor. Therefore, you’re more likely to not be involved in your child’s education, correct??
As to WHY if you’re poor and are not an involved parent is an entirely different matter, IMO
Hugh Beaumont.
June 3rd, 2012
11:29 am
@Anonmom, you assume. But even if it is an expert, or a parent, it is the fact that the child is spending time away from school working and trying to learn. It is engagement.
If we are going to examine what is “flying under the radar”, we need to account for everything.
How much time to the kids spend on FB?
Do they go out and hang out with their friends unsupervised before all the homework is complete?How often are the parents accessing their computer portals to review their students work?
A reader
June 3rd, 2012
11:31 am
Which 3 years were averaged?
I find this data hard to believe. Here is a link the the GA Dept of Education website 2010 SAT scores(http://archives.gadoe.org/DMGetDocument.aspx/Class%20of%202010%20SAT%20by%20School-District%209-13-10.pdf?p=6CC6799F8C1371F679F356128768AA88368880B0620F383CC5E733906352FF6E&Type=D). In includes scores for all 3 sections of the SAT by school and includes the number of test takers.
According to this, 150 students from North Atlanta took the test. The average verbal was 485 and the average math score was 477 giving 962 out of a possible 1600. Milton High School had 485 students take the test with an average verbal of 554 and math of 555 giving 1109 out of a possible 1600. Note that the demographics of Milton High School is mostly white (84% according to this website: http://www.bestplaces.net/schools/georgia/alpharetta/milton_high_school).
So my question is, how many white students took the SAT at North Atlanta and how bad must of the minorities’ SAT scores been to reduce the average from 1178 (according to the table in this blog) to the 2010 average of 962, a difference of more than 200 points?
valid questions
June 3rd, 2012
11:36 am
Maureen
The contract a teacher signs is with a school system, not a school. While there are some teachers who want to bike or walk to work, most want to work where they can make the most $, have a strong school based administrator and a healthy school system. DeKalb is no longer the place where any of those are true. Salaries continue to drop after being the second highest paying system in the metro area for years, we are no where near that anymore.
City of Decatur can attract great teachers, not because of its location which helps, but because it is a healthy school system with a population that is far less challenging, in terms of socio-economics, than the surrounding systems.
Yes, Lakeside offers a lot of AP courses. The pass rate is not half (49.9 percent) At Walton where more than twice the number of students took the test, the pass rate is more than 75 percent. (76.1)
I am not bashing Lakeside and Walton to Lakeside is certainly not an apples to apples comparison.
What I am trying to illustrate is that even DeKalb’s “best” schools are being impacted by the overall dysfunction that is DeKalb.
Jarod Apperson
June 3rd, 2012
11:40 am
@Hugh. I see your point. You´re right, I haven´t done a comprehensive look at demographic variation for each of the schools. However, there is data available that shows income variation between areas zoned for the schools. For example, Census Tract 9402 is zoned for North Atlanta. It is 59% hispanic and has a median income of $49,201. Census Tract 99 is also zoned for North Atlanta. It is 95% white and has a median income of $126,096. It would take a while to perform a comprehensive review, but I suspect it would show more of the same.
My point really is the same as your successful parents raise successful children.
If you want to check out more demographics by census tract, you can here:
http://projects.nytimes.com/census/2010/explorer
redweather
June 3rd, 2012
11:50 am
I agree with the many comments here arguing that parental involvement is a, if not the, key to student success and achievement. But let’s give the students some credit as well. There is peer pressure at every school to view learning as a waste of time, as boring, as (fill in the blank). Successful students rise above that peer pressure and not infrequently drag some of their less committed peers along with them. It is possible to succeed as a student even if your parents (or parent) are not all that supportive, and one way that happens is through positive peer pressure.
In my view, the greatest obstacle to student success may be our unwillingness to reward, or single out, high-achievers because we don’t want anyone’s feelings to get hurt. The “Everyone Gets a Trophy” mindset is both counter-intuitive and counterproductive.
Ed Johnson
June 3rd, 2012
11:50 am
@Anonmon: “The issues are much more ‘cultural’ than ‘school’ based.”
Exactly. Obviously, culture shows up and enters school every day that school is in session. It should also be obvious that school dysfunction arises when school is managed in such a way as to prevent school from learning from culture and, on that basis, improving. School should have the freedom and wherewithal to grab hold of culture by the, ah, whatever, study it, and learn from it, and use that learning to continually develop the capability to mitigate, absorb, and otherwise deal with whatever culture brings to school.
When school can’t or is prevented from learning, then blame for school problems go to the usual culprits: poverty, not enough money, low parental involvement, kids coming to school unprepared, lack of school uniforms, lack of male role models, …, and, ultimately, the kitchen sink.
(It’s encouraging to hear APS’ D.H. Stanton ES, once on Superintendent’s Erroll Davis’ closure list, may be attempting to break free of this mindset, to indeed go at culture, head on, in a Stephen Covey kind of way.)
Unfortunately it seems too often school is thought of as just a place, a building, where education delivery happens. Rarely, it seems, is school thought to be an organism that itself needs to, and is capable of, continually learning and improving.
(In a meeting last week with GA State Superintendent Dr. John Barge as guest presenter, it was interesting, and puzzling, hearing him speak of education “delivery.” Yup, open up their heads and pour education in, seems the idea.)
northatlantateacher
June 3rd, 2012
11:52 am
@hmmm: the reason behind the motivation matters because it depends on what the parent wants the outcome to be. Mostly, it’s grade motivated and not learning motivated. Involvement does not equal support education and learning.
SES and race is dependent upon the area, not being black or brown. Appalachia is overwhelmingly white and incredibly poor.
Teacher
June 3rd, 2012
11:56 am
It is great to be in a school where only high achieving students test (this is true in some schools), there is parental support and accountability; the children value education, students are prepared to learn, and in attendance daily; a school where students are selected — limited low income, special needs; zero tolerance and discipline are enforced, etc. This teacher maintains that it is the product that walk through the school door each morning. It is not only the teachers/school responsibility, but when does the parent and child accept responsibility? Also when will business/community become accountable and when will the fingerpoint stop? How do students make it to high school and are unable to read? Some students come to school with a multitutde of issues which should not be a child’s concern. And yet those with silver spoons do not or have not walked in their footsteps. Those on the outside simply do not understand, but continue to make decisions inclusive of unknown factors. NCLB and RTTT, etc., should not be expected to the the answer until everyone shares responsibiity. As teachers are told in faculty meetings, “We can’t help where they come from, but we must teach them.” Yes, high quality teachers are teaching, but apparently it is not getting through.” Will someone help teachers get through to students who apparently aren’t receiving what is being taught? If students are constantly on cell phones/texting, absent, and not paying attention, what do teachers do? Please come to the inside and stop sitting on the outside rendering a variety of reform initiatives. The help that is needed starts before birth, in the home . . . not at the high school level!
Good Mother
June 3rd, 2012
12:01 pm
There is an incorrect assumption that black equals poor and white equals rich. What I want to see is this same type of analysis for all races AND incomes AND education levels.
Just because one is black or white does not guarantee an educational outcome. I know blacks who drive into the city for work but live far outside the perimeter because of the good schools. Those black families are educated too.
The real puzzler is WHY is it that most uneducated and poor people of any race DO NOT value education? Surely it is an easy, apparent, obvious truth that more education equals more money. The easiest way to get out of poverty is to get an education and public schools are FREE for the poor.
As a society, we’ve got to do whatever it takes to make this message clear: School equals money. Go to school and learn. Have a better life.
bootney farnsworth
June 3rd, 2012
12:04 pm
if Erroll really wants people to stay in APS, make some changes that matter.
luckydog
June 3rd, 2012
12:04 pm
Another 40 trillion dollars(total spent on LBJ’s War on Poverty) will not change a thing.
Hmmmmm....
June 3rd, 2012
12:22 pm
@NorthAtlantaTeacher, are you implying grades and academic achievement does not correlate with success in a career?
Totally agree with your point about geography. But taking America as a whole, blacks and browns are disproportionately poor, so higher likelihood of poor educational outcomes (as a group) by this reasoning, correct??
The bigger point that I’m trying to make is, if parental involvement and nuclear family is the single biggest driver in a child’s education, what in the world can a public school system possibly do for a kid in a dysfunctional home??
Hugh Beaumont.
June 3rd, 2012
12:30 pm
So, if Readers number are right, the and the average white kid scores 1178, and the school average is 962….if 25 percent of the students are white…..Then the average non white scored an average of under 850. Who the hell wants to put their kid in that environment?
But, we also have differences in income zones of 125K and 50K.
Message? If your are not rich and white. Say away from inside the perimeter public schools.
Kate
June 3rd, 2012
12:40 pm
Maureen, could you provide the name and/or link to the study you mentioned about immigrant children and school performance? Thank you.
Interesting Observation
June 3rd, 2012
12:42 pm
northatlantateacher
June 3rd, 2012
8:59 am
Ever notice how any and everything negative that happens in the city gets hyped up and replayed morning, noon and night on WSB Action News? Take one incident that gets played day after day three times a day and the perception becomes three separate incidents. According to WSB Action News, anyone who ventures downtown becomes a crime statistic. I make a weekly trek to Olympic Park downtown, and the place is bustling with tourists and locals. Giddy kids enjoying the ringed fountains peppered with international dialects, fathers tossing fotballs to their sons etc. Never is that scene shown on WSB Action News. But let a shooting happen a few blocks from a MARTA station, and it’s geted reported as “SHOOTING AT MARTA STATION.”
Ric The Greek
June 3rd, 2012
12:43 pm
@Dunwoody Mom and everybody else that want to see the magnet/resident scored separated…be careful what you ask for because it my just prove that the “Magnet” students are actually carrying Chamblee High as it relates to high scores and achievement. The resident students may be just average when it comes to the magnet student. As a parent who has had a magnet child go through Chamblee and graduate GA Tech, we have always considered Chamblee to be one school inclusive of both magnet and resident.
TBTG
June 3rd, 2012
12:53 pm
Thomas Sowell on the second edition of Intellectuals and Society – a great read
http://www.hoover.org/multimedia/uncommon-knowledge/116706
northatlantateacher
June 3rd, 2012
1:10 pm
Hmmm: Again, totally lost on your first question. Never said or implied that. We haven’t even touched on a correlation between academic achievement K-12 and career success. That is an entirely different topic than the one at hand.
As for what schools are supposed to do with kids who come from less than ideal homes, I don’t know. I think that’s always been public ed’s biggest obstacle.
northatlantateacher
June 3rd, 2012
1:12 pm
@Interesting Observation: That scene isn’t shown because it isn’t interesting, doesn’t play on viewer’s fears, and doesn’t feed stereotypes.
Hmmmmm....
June 3rd, 2012
1:21 pm
@NorthAtlantaTeacher
“mostly it’s grade motivated, not learning motivated…”
I would submit most parents understand the correlation between “learning”, “good grades”, and “successful career” is inter-related. For you to question the parents’ “motivation” is doing a disservice to those same parents
SB
June 3rd, 2012
1:23 pm
It is very simplistic thinking to assume that differences in academic performance stem from one factor (parents, wealth, etc…) Many many factors play into this equation. Wealth, parents, parent’s education, teachers, schools, etc… together can create a difference in how students perform. Hence, kids that go to really poor performing schools, manage to be successful students perhaps because where they lack in one area, it’s made up for another. Instead of blaming parents, we need to be coming up with solutions so that all students can be successful. Some may think it’s not their problem, but it will be everybody’s problem if we are unwilling to do what we can because at some point those students will either become successfully educated tax paying citizens or potential drains on society. And, everyone, regardless of where you come from or who you come from, deserves a chance at success.
Hmmmmm....
June 3rd, 2012
1:37 pm
“…coming up up with solutions so that all students can be successful”
All???
A bit pie in the sky, don’t you think??
HS Math Teacher
June 3rd, 2012
1:50 pm
White students for Saw Mill Central in Pert-Near Florida outperform white students from Buffy&Biff High in north Metro Atlanta (99% are white). Now, there’s a headline.
Attentive Parent
June 3rd, 2012
1:55 pm
“As for what schools are supposed to do with kids who come from less than ideal homes, I don’t know. I think that’s always been public ed’s biggest obstacle.”
Why Common Core has that all planned out as does Robert Avossa under that awful Charter that just went effective to bring the North Fulton schools down to the APS/Dekalb dysfunction.
I really do not mean that jokingly. More like painful irony but everything about Common Core involves chaging the nature of schools in the US to cater to “the 80% of students who would never do well in a traditional transmission of knowledge curriculum.”
On APS they are very excited about the new definition of student achievement Georgia has developed under its NCLB waiver. The Deputy Super I heard talking about it said it would really help with dealing with the anger over redistricting and the cheating scandal because “it would make them look good.”
It’s always good to change the measurements if you are unwilling to change policies and practices.
Part of what is wrong in Dekalb and APS and is soon, unfortunately, to be ailing in Fulton and Cobb goes back to which districts went aggressively to outcomes based education in the 1990s. And never left.
When OBE became notorious for its poor academic results, the approach was to rename it. The name chosen was the Partnership for Quality Learning. I wish Georgia’s legislators had known that when they adopted the new statute tying Quality Learning as the new measure of student achievement.
http://www.invisibleserfscollar.com/why-quality-learning-may-be-the-last-thing-you-want-for-your-child/ is the posting I wrote today on what Quality Learning really is. And Quality Education.
Yes I did use my Attentive Parent Glossary on that one. Please don’t take it personally Georgia though. Right now it’s the Australians pouring in to read about Education for all and Outcomes Based Education.
Cause it turns out our Common Core implementation looks just like their Australian Core Skills Framework.
Small world.
bu2
June 3rd, 2012
2:00 pm
Valid Point makes just that. I imagine the white students taking the SAT in North Atlanta, Lakeside, etc. have a much higher average family income and parental education level than the suburban schools’ students.
Until you factor that in, its just like comparing Walton HS to Tower HS. The demographics are different. White people are not all just alike.
bu2
June 3rd, 2012
2:04 pm
@Maureen
How many of your Decatur teachers with families live in Decatur or nearby? Many teachers in Dekalb County live in Gwinnett because the homes in safe neighborhoods with good schools are more affordable there. Decatur can get good teachers primarily because of the schools, not where they are located. A teacher’s salary has to really be stretched to live in Decatur.
northatlantateacher
June 3rd, 2012
2:12 pm
@Hmmm:
“I would submit most parents understand the correlation between “learning”, “good grades”, and “successful career” is inter-related. For you to question the parents’ “motivation” is doing a disservice to those same parents”
I would hope that understanding would be there too. A large number (I do not have the data in front of me) of incoming college freshmen must take remedial courses. These are HS graduates, often with a 3.0 and higher, sometimes even honors grads, from “good” suburban public schools. Another thing to consider is the large college drop out rate. These kids got in to good colleges based on high HS GPAs, in part.
Maureen Downey
June 3rd, 2012
2:14 pm
@bu2, Not too sure of firm numbers. I know that two of my favorite teachers live in Lakeside and their kids went to DeKalb schools.
I had a neighbor in Decatur who taught in DeKalb and her children attended DeKalb schools. It just made her life easier for them to travel with her every day — she was a single parent and after-school was less of an issue once her kids went with her.
However, at least two of my twins’ elementary school teachers lived in Decatur and their kids went to Decatur schools. At least two others lived in other counties and their kids attended Decatur schools.
Our middle school principal lives in Henry. Some of the younger teachers — without kids — live in Atlanta.
Maureen
B. Killebrew
June 3rd, 2012
2:21 pm
And let’s not forget about some other suburban schools on the list that are fairly similar to the urban schools–and are also doing a great job:
Wheeler
North Springs
Norcross
Marietta
Centennial (not really as “urban-nesque,” but it is great that it is ranked high–this school is slighly more urban than the other North Fulton schools)
Anonmom
June 3rd, 2012
2:32 pm
I think we may be going about things all wrong. We have this mass assumption that everyone “needs” an education. Everyone “needs” go to college. Everyone “needs” to get great SAT scores. I think what every child “needs” is a lifelong passion and pursuit that they really love, that they are really good at, that they can find satisfaction with and that they can earn an income with. For some families and some chldren, this incldues college and grad schools. For other children, it may be auto mechanics or plumbing. Society needs all types of people being good at all sorts of skills. Historically, people learned and went down different paths depending on their families, their backgrounds, their abilities and their interests. We are spending billions, if not trillions of dollars, trying to fit all of our children into this “school” mold to get them “educated” and wondering and worrying about losing all these kids at 15 and 16. If we were to learn from history and really look at what other societies are doing, without restricting options, we might be able to find a better, more effiecient and more effective paradigm, that allowed for all of children, to find a skill set to do what they love and what they are good at to earn a living…… without restricing and watch them grow. But this isn’t what the founders of our public system of education really had in mind when the system was set up at the end of the 19th century. I submit that it is what we now need.
Anonmom
June 3rd, 2012
2:37 pm
By way of anecdote, I was reading a story about a top chef about to set sail on a Holland American ship as a ‘celebrety’ chef on a few upcoming cruises and he was discussing how he became a chef … he was British and he always loved to cook (I couldn’t tell how old he was). When he was 15 he set off from Brittain to the continent to learn from the French chefs, who were brutal. Then he wound up at a German hotel, where he really learned how to cook. They told him he was awful. Then he wound up with an opportunity to work back in Brittain under some French chefs… and that where he really learned how to cook. Now he’s in charge of a number of kitchens in Phoenix — he’s very successful. Where’s the schooling? It’s all an apprentice-based system (again, I’m not sure of the age) — this type of training worked for centuries…..
Teacher of 20 years
June 3rd, 2012
2:45 pm
Yes, we can agree that parenting is the primary reason why some of our children do not have great success in school. Parental involvement is very important for the success of our students succeding in the classroom. However, because teachers know parents don’t care…then they don’t care. I have worked in school where over 50% of the teachers don’t teach. They pretend to teach, but because no one -parents or adminstration team are not making them accountable they fake teaching to our students. I also have seen in school where teachers are ill-prepared to teach. It goes both ways. From what I have saw in the last years in teaching in about three of four different schools in Atlanta,black teachers and, I am a black teacher, seems to find it easiest to just give up on teaching a child who parents don’t show involvement. Blame why our children is not making progress is not just on the parents the teachers too are giving up on teaching our kids. If teachers would hold up to their part of the bargin- teaching our kids would be a different outcome in students’ achievments. But if this testiment is not substantial enough, prove me wrong by taking a camera into 5 classes, 10, if you think I am exaggerating in the Atlanta Public Schools, and then record the teachers and see for yourself if they are fully focus on teaching the kids or just doing something to make the day pass by.
Tabitha
June 3rd, 2012
2:55 pm
Maureen needs to work on her skills a bit.
I don’t know the intown schools but i do know Walton and Wheeler high schools in East Cobb. If Marureen’s chart “proves” that Wheeler is a better school than Walton, Maureen needs a new chart.
HS Math Teacher
June 3rd, 2012
3:40 pm
Anonmom: I agree with you. It seems the people in the golden dome, the Sloppy Floyd Bld. idgits, and a good portion in the golden doughnut we affectionately call east coast melting pot (know-it-all yankees & forget my small town near-do-wells) seem to think that every kid can & will want to learn what works out to be a college prep (at min.) curriculum. It’s a shame this idiotic mentality is perpetuated by the university egg-head elite who have it ‘Piled High & Deep’ (Ph.D). These people know their fancy cheese & wine, but can’t pour pee out of boot, much less scare up a date on fright night.
TheGoldenRam
June 3rd, 2012
3:41 pm
I’ve long considered the following article as one of the best summations of the difficulties in addressing the achievement gap. Sadly, it doesn’t offer any easy solutions. Because there aren’t any.
What’s Holding Black Kids Back?
http://www.city-journal.org/html/15_2_holding.html
I’m a 38 yr-old white man that had a privileged upbringing. Mom was a public school teacher. Dad was an options trader, business owner and very successful entrepreneur. My brother and I both attended a prestigious private school for our entire K-12 education. Public universities for college.
A number of years ago, I asked my parents why it was that they sent us to private school. Was it because the school was academically superior to the public school we were zoned for? No. Our public school was pretty good. The reason was because our parents wanted us raised in a “culture of achievement and success”. Not just in our home, but in as much of our surrounding environment as they could influence. There are certainly no guarantees, but there is little doubt that there are profound cultural advantages to growing up in a world of doctors, lawyers, politicians, professors, business owners & a multitude of other ‘achiever’ types. And ‘achiever’ types do come in many, many forms. Some of the highest performing students at our school were those that would have been considered to be at the margin of handling the financial challenge of attendance. Those parents made the greatest sacrifices just to get their kids in the door and those kids knew it. And they lived up to it. I love my parents. They made for an amazing upbringing. I owe it to them more than anything, for being who I am today. However, the realist in me also knows that had the choice been between them taking a second job and me going to the fancy school, there would have been no fancy schooling.
I consider great parents of all backgrounds to be the very noblest of all of us.
I grew up on a small estate that was part of a neighborhood of probably twenty families. If we saw a black person in our neighborhood he or she was invariably some form of “the help”. There was some “old south” bigotry, but my generation was being raised in a rapidly changing world. Our immediate neighbors were some of the most educated, intelligent, socially aware, progressively-minded and innately kind people you could ever meet. I have never heard an ill-word spoken of them in my entire life. They are the very embodiment of honor and decency. They too made a profound impression upon me growing up. They were my second set of parents. Their sons were our brothers. Interesting factoid: They are also direct descendants of Robert E. Lee.
When in college pursuing a Master’s degree in History, I remember being shocked at the initial realization that the very highest performers in our program were a handful of black students from Africa. Then I came to know them and understand that they carried with them an extraordinary sense of personal expectation and drive. Meticulous attention to detail, verbal articulation and diction that exceeded that of almost all of us “indigenous” students and an immense appreciation for the value and importance of education. Their cultural expectation for pursuing education really did exceed our own.
I have a black man as my attorney. My primary care doctor is a black women. She was an immigrant from Kenya that graduated at the top of her class from the Yale School of Medicine. She is wicked smart. I chose these people on merit. For their character and ability. Their skin color is meaningless to my intentions.
I believe that if we are to effectively address the most difficult issues that face us in life, the answer will always be found in education. Yet we need a revolution in regards to how culture relates to education. We need to change behavior & change value systems. That starts in families and communities of people. There is no replacement for those things. We chase after all of the symptoms because that’s easier than facing the uncomfortable truths about from where these problems originate. We can play this game forever, but we shouldn’t really expect anything to change.
a_mom
June 3rd, 2012
3:49 pm
@Just A Grunt 9:49am – You nailed it on the head. The argument has always been wealthy white kids (or even wealthy black kids) do better in schools, as if the house you live in makes the difference. What really makes the difference is that those kids have parents who studied hard as kids & it paid off for them in terms of a better career.
But then why do the Asians always do so well? There are many, many Asians who came here with their poor, immigrant parents. But their parents really value education as a way out of poverty and make their kids study and expect good grades, or else! If they want to blame school drop outs on financial status, then let’s be fair & see a chart of ALL kids by race in the low-economic sector… white, black, Asian, & hispanic. I’d almost bet the ranking of high school performance among poor kids would be as follows: 1) Asian, 2) white, 3) hispanic, 4) black. But you’ll NEVER see a breakdown like that because then you’d have to point the finger at black parents… and that isn’t politically correct.
The school you attend is important, to be sure. But an even greater factor for school success is the parents! Even the best teacher can’t make her students do their homework, study for tests, or be in bed on time each night. Too many (not all) parents in the poor, black community don’t place a high enough value on a good education & the hard work & effort it takes to get one.
TK
June 3rd, 2012
3:55 pm
To mike & Jack…It is does not come down to parenting. There are studies that show that regardless to parents going to PTA or not, students (KIDS) thrive because of their own will to do better. However, there are plenty of parents that educate their kids and can not make it to PTA, which is not anymore important than a white or asian parent aspectations. Your views are yours alone and a bunch of crap. I am a black women with an education and kids and my expectation to my kids regardless if I make it to PTA’s are to excel in all they do. By the way, we do not live in the inner city but my kids get straight A’s every year. If you grew up in Atlanta you’d know the inner city schools were not made of white and asian students until the last 10 years. With whites and asians moving into the inner city and school administration being bought with high property taxes from these people schools have become better because 10 years prior the inner city school were made up on majority kids that were not getting a decent education and that’s the bottomline. It should not be about who lives where because it’s educational discrimination.
reality
June 3rd, 2012
4:06 pm
May have something to do with IQ. The schools with lots of low-IQ kids perform poorly.
TheGoldenRam
June 3rd, 2012
4:40 pm
@ Teacher of 20 years
Sadly, your observations reflect a pattern we also see down here in our Florida county. Schools with very little parental participation become dumping grounds for the unmotivated, ineffective teachers and administrators. The district doesn’t want these folks(especially the friends and family members) to lose their jobs, but they also can’t deal with the blow-back from highly involved parents at “good” schools. So the powers that be pile their ‘adult’ baggage on the backs of children already suffering from a disproportionate amount of adversity. To me, that behavior is criminal. Any wonder why the next step for so many ‘disadvantaged’ schools is cheating & manipulation. Promoting unprepared children & changing test scores are crimes committed against children by adults for the benefit of themselves and other adults. The APS cheating scandal is the absolute definition of “the soft bigotry of low expectations”. The fact that this behavior was/is allowed to persist is a huge ‘cultural’ failing. The scariest part is that a culture that fails in these ways causes an exponential growth in the conditions that breed future failure. It’s also amazing that a crime of that scale, with literally thousands of victims; never leads to any arrests, convictions or even fines. Rob a convenience store, go to prison. Rob 10,000 kids of a fair education, go to Hawaii? Public schools are often targets of unfair attacks, but so many times they’re also their own worst enemy.
Teacher of truth
June 3rd, 2012
4:40 pm
How many of us in Atlanta are aware of how in the Northern school zone in Atlanta that grade inflation is a major problem! The testing mindset is coming back to haunt the US students’ ! How would dare talk about the mindset of north end students! Can 150 students really define the value of a school!
Opine
June 3rd, 2012
4:52 pm
The race is not a predictor like income status and educational levels of parents. Compare Whites of varying income levels and you will see. Unfortunately, in America, race is often determined to be a predictor since race has been historically intertwined with opportunities for income and education until modern times. Nevertheless, it is good to see a conversation initiated or reinitiated and infused with another perspective.
Intown white high school students outperform suburban counterparts - City-Data Forum
June 3rd, 2012
4:53 pm
[...] Intown white high school students outperform suburban counterparts This is a very appropriate topic for this forum. The reason I am posting this is to show that a student can receive a good education in all parts of Metro Atlanta. Whether a family wants intown/urban, an inner suburb, a middle suburb, an outer suburb, or exurban/semi-rural, there are a plethora of good school options. Many people on here try to make the "suburban/urban-OTP/ITP" situation an "either or" scenario. It is not. The beauty of Metro Atlanta is that people in any stage of life can find a living situation that meets their personal tastes and needs. It is "both and," not "either or." Anyway–Enjoy! Not true that urban schools fail all students: Intown white high school students outperform suburban… [...]
School Ratings Thread - READ FIRST for school inquiries. - Page 45 - City-Data Forum
June 3rd, 2012
4:59 pm
[...] Not true that urban schools fail all students: Intown white high school students outperform suburban… [...]
Randy
June 3rd, 2012
5:38 pm
Want your kid to do well on the SAT or ACT? Try this then.
1. Give your child a two parent family with both parents giving the child attention.
2. Read to your child from an early age until he/she reads on his/her own.
3. Take your child to the library. Spend more time there than on the ball fields or basketball courts. More kids make it to med school than the NBA.
4. Monitor your child’s homework until graduation.
5. Meet with teachers regularly and get involved at the school.
6. Let your child know you expect proper behavior at school.
7. Support the teachers.
Will your child get as good of an education at a public school as at Westminster or Lovett? Definitely not, largely because the discipline is not there and the public schools have “dumbed down.” But the playing field will become more level as time goes on. Plus, your child will have the advantage of going to public school with more normal kids, and you’ll save thousands of dollars a year.
Hmmmmm.....
June 3rd, 2012
6:31 pm
TK…please site those studies where they proclaim parenting/parental involvement has no impact on educational achievement
A Conservative Voice
June 3rd, 2012
6:33 pm
Private Schools is best, y’all…….
bootney farnsworth
June 3rd, 2012
7:44 pm
a thank you to TK for illustrating the problems we face every day.
some people fight for their right not to be involved
if you don’t think parental involvement is the single major role after a child’s natural abilities
you’re either: dumb, stupid, ignorant, deluded, just don’t give a damn
and very probably educated in the morass of APS, DCSS, Clayton, South Fulton, and growing
segment of Cobb & Gwinnett
another comment
June 3rd, 2012
7:51 pm
Perhaps the reason that so many Georgia Schools are doing so poorly is as the front page of Sunday’s AJC says, that over 55% of all births in Georgia are covered by Medicad. Since, the majority of the state is still white, that would include alot of white births as well. Something is big time wrong in this state. What is wrong when in 2012, that people are getting pregnant and having babies that they can not even afford to pay for their birth.
I did not have either of my children until I could afford them. That was in my 30’s. That might be why my children and other’s like mine will do better.
I grew up in a working class family, but my family paid for all the births for their 4 children all by c-section. They never took food stamps, or free lunch or anything like that they could have qualified for. There is a thing called pride. Which might be why 3 out of 4 of us have college degree’s and my brother makes more than two of the ones with college degree’s working 28 years for a Union Printer.