Can’t we get paddling out of all schools once and for all?
Given that there are far better and more effective ways to discipline students, why would schools risk lawsuits and criminal charges by striking children?
I still don’t understand how we teach kids not to hit people by hitting them.
Paddlings are often recalled on this blog with wistfulness as if they were a vanishing Southern staple — in the tradition of pickup trucks and pickled okra. It’s time to get rid of paddling in schools. (I would also like to get rid of pickled okra but my husband loves it.)
Schools should not physically discipline children. Suspend them. Call the parents. Send them home. But don’t hit them. It’s wrong. It invites complaints and lawsuits. And it teaches kids to use force to make their points.
Here’s yet another story on yet another spanking incident, this time in a private school where parents apparently have to approve the physical disciplining of their kids:
A family is complaining that their 11-year-old son was paddled excessively as punishment for fighting at his private school, according to Channel 2 Action News. “I don’t know how to explain it. So brutal,” Desmond Omigie told Channel 2 about being spanked by a leader at Hope Christian Academy in Jonesboro.
Desmond said he got into a fight on the basketball court at the school and punched another student in the nose. The school enforces corporal punishment and Robert Taylor, the pastor of the church that runs the school, spanked him, he told Channel 2. “Before he spanked me, he
said, ‘I’m going to beat you until I get tired,” Desmond told Channel 2.The pastor told Channel 2 that he followed procedures when spanking the
fifth grader, and that those are procedures that parents permit. But the boy’s mother, Patricia Omigie, told Channel 2 that injuries to Desmond’s backside prompted her to take him to the doctor and to file a police report indicating the spanking was excessive.
-From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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157 comments Add your comment
mystery poster
May 21st, 2012
2:34 pm
I was glad to see that your take on this topic was to eliminate the paddling.
I can’t believe these parents would sign to allow this, then get upset when it happens.
T-Square
May 21st, 2012
2:39 pm
I would also like to get rid of pickled okra
And with that one line she proves she’s crazy.
Berny
May 21st, 2012
2:40 pm
I’m torn on this one. I was paddled in school. I deserved it and it did not destroy my life or make me violent. I would not want anyone to paddle my daughters because I am an involved parent and discipline is my job. However, there are some kids in these schools that could use a good paddling.
Beverly Fraud
May 21st, 2012
2:43 pm
“I still don’t understand how we teach kids not to hit people by hitting them.”
Well we do teach people not to kidnap others by holding them against their own will in a locked room.
Still…myself, I prefer Dr. Trotter’s Center for Non Learning. Let them actually experience just how limited their options will be when they choose not to learn.
edugator
May 21st, 2012
2:47 pm
40 years ago I attended schools in another state where paddling was not allowed. Discipline was fine, and as near as I can tell we’re all happy and well adjusted adults. I’ve worked in schools in the south where paddling was allowed, and for the most part, discipline was a disaster. Paddling is neither the solution nor the problem, but it doesn’t do anything particularly useful.
If you really want to punish a kid, lecture to him.
Sensationalistic
May 21st, 2012
2:49 pm
At some private schools in Savannah, I think that paddling can serve as a replacement to suspension (sometimes automatic point deductions even if it is not academic related). I am not sure the case here, but the parents may have been offered the choice of the kid getting paddled and not receiving a grade deduction. I guess they didn’t quite understand what paddling could entail.
Paddling should be eliminated just because intimidation only breeds the kid to live a life of intimidating others. But for this case, it is hard to dismiss something that was authorized with the parents.
mystery poster
May 21st, 2012
2:52 pm
@Sensationalistic “But for this case, it is hard to dismiss something that was authorized with the parents.”
That’s exactly my issue with this. How could the parents authorize it, then have a problem when it was administered.
Just another teacher
May 21st, 2012
2:58 pm
Paddling isn’t as prevalent in Georgia schools as some would make it out to be. I’ve worked in 3 rural counties in the past 24 years and have yet to experience working in a school where students were paddled.
catlady
May 21st, 2012
3:00 pm
I don’t think you paddle to teach kids not to hit. I think you paddle to show the child that disobedience has consequences. Maybe.
I’d like to see being able to call parents and demand they come get their out of control child. The parent would have the option of attending class with their child. Parents are responsible for their children, and should have to follow through in order for their child to stay in school..I know when parents are inconvenienced by their child’s behavior, it usually improves. Now that NCLB does not have the “attendance” requirement, I’d like to see us move back to removing disruptive kids from school quickly. After all, little Johnny is NOT more important than the other 31 in class!
As for this mother signing the permission to paddle, I am SURE she never thought it would be HER child who would be paddled!
Lisa B.
May 21st, 2012
3:01 pm
We do not paddle at the high school where I work. However, I have had parents request paddling to avoid their students getting suspended. Suspension is a dire consequence for misbehavior, because students cannot make-up classwork or tests missed. Too many suspensions cause students to lose credit for their classes because of attendance policy. Obviously, the hope is that students would figure this out and avoid getting suspended. At times, I wish we had the option to paddle rather than have students lose all their credits for the school year.
Sensationalistic
May 21st, 2012
3:07 pm
@Just another teacher
2:58 pm
If you are referring to public schools, I can see that. A big deal is how private schools essentially have more power over a child than what a public school can. That’s because you sign off on a lot of waivers.
Julie Worley
May 21st, 2012
3:21 pm
Documentary exposes brutal school spankings/paddlings/shocking Injuries to US Students from taxpayer funded Public School Corporal Punishment Discipline, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vt4v7KsFi8 school teachers, coaches and administrators who brutally assault students K-12 are Immune from criminal/civil charges leaving no legal remedy, parents would face Felony Child Abuse charges, up to 12 years prison in Shelby Co, TN for similar injuries to children! 2/3 of Tennessee students attend “Paddling Schools”. Florida and Tennessee State Law does Not require parental consent or notification for students to be hit with wooden paddles to inflict Pain as Punishment in school, yet Corporal Punishment is Prohibited in Nashville Schools and Schools in 31 U.S. States! Sign Petition to End School Corporal Punishment at http://www.change.org/petitions/support-h-r-3027-to-end-corporal-punishment-in-us-public-schools
A recent example of the damage done to a Crossville Tennessee school, coach and student follows:
“Legendary Football Coach Faces Criminal Charges For Paddling”.
The student’s mother “said her son is recovering from a traumatic brain injury from an ATV crash and any further trauma like padding to his head or spine could have killed him. The boy was on the school’s “No Paddle” list, but the mother said it still happened.”
The coach is no longer employed by the school, is facing criminal charges and two civil rights attorneys are bringing a federal lawsuit against responsible parties.
School Corporal Punishment is discriminatorily applied to boys, minority, disabled and low-income students.
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2009/08/11/impairing-education-0
Schoolchildren in the United States are treated differently based on where they live!
Angry Mississippi Mom tased twice at school, arrested
The incident marked at least the second time that Eaton had complained to school officials about disciplining her child, Weeks said. In 2010, she said her son had been spanked even though he was on the school’s “Do Not Paddle List,” he said.
Unlike 31 states that have banned corporal punishment in schools, according to http://www.stophitting.com, Mississippi allows some teachers to keep a wooden paddle in the classroom for discipline.
-http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-05-16/news/sns-rt-us-usa-crime-tasermombre84g01h-2 0120516_1_corporal-punishment-taser-mississippi
KidsDoMatter
May 21st, 2012
3:56 pm
No one seems to be concerned with the other child that was struck prior to this kid being spanked. I truly do not care if he felt injured due to being paddled, I’m sure the kid who was punched in the nose felt exactly the same way.
Ed Advocate
May 21st, 2012
4:09 pm
I’ve represented educators accused of wrong-doing in corporal punishment cases for almost a decade and completely agree that corporal punishment should be outlawed in schools. It is ineffective, brutish, and a big liability for the school systems that still utilize it.
mystery poster
May 21st, 2012
4:09 pm
Wow, I really expected the “phones to light up” on this one.
Howard Finkelstein
May 21st, 2012
5:34 pm
What I meant to say was….
The parent gave her permission, in writing, for paddling. This is a non-issue.
mountain man
May 21st, 2012
6:00 pm
The problem is that they took paddling out of most schools, but neglected to replace it with anything. I don’t know if paddling is “effective” or not (it certainly was effective on me), but there needs to be effective discipline in place. What punishment can you give these kids who don’t care about anything?
Just Another Teacher
May 21st, 2012
6:15 pm
@ Sensationalistic But isn’t sending a student to a private school a parental choice? Parents have the right to NOT sign a waver just as a private school has the right to NOT allow a student to enroll.
If the problem isn’t public schools, then what IS the problem, exactly?
Tired
May 21st, 2012
6:32 pm
You wouldn’t verbally abuse a student to punish him or her – why would physical force be OK?
mountain man
May 21st, 2012
6:33 pm
We don’t need no paddling – we don’t have no dissaplin problems. Beside, if we paddle, we might get shot!
Teacher
May 21st, 2012
7:27 pm
Be sure you make one important note: this kid was at a PRIVATE school, not public. If the parents have a problem with it, take the kid out of the school or don’t complain. Period.
gamom
May 21st, 2012
7:38 pm
Maureen – do you know if there are any GA lawmakers looking into abolishing this yet?
Tony
May 21st, 2012
8:03 pm
I thought private schools were so much better than public schools.
Fred ™
May 21st, 2012
8:14 pm
Maureen, I usually agree with most of what you write but not this time. like catlady said, you don’t paddle kids to teach them not to hit. That’s just an insipid, illogical statement by you. You paddle kids to punish them. Having said that, I agree with your first sentence 100%:
Given that there are far better and more effective ways to discipline students, why would schools risk lawsuits and criminal charges by striking children?
Were I a principal, teacher coach ect….. in a school that allowed paddling, I wouldn’t do it for anything just for the reasons you state above. Was paddling accepted when I went to school? Sure it was. It was also a different day and time. I remember in high school the Principal offering me three licks or three days (suspension). Easy choice. I would have to explain three days suspension for dipping (LOL I spit out the window and almost spit ON the principal) to my parents who did NOT allow me to do so but the three licks was not reported. I got off light.
But then also in those days if I had a “tobacco permit” I wouldn’t have been in the predicament to begin with. Can you imagine kids being allowed to use tobacco at school? Kids NOT 18? Like I said, different times………
Fred ™
May 21st, 2012
8:16 pm
Tony
May 21st, 2012
8:03 pm
I thought private schools were so much better than public schools.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
They are.
Bloodbike
May 21st, 2012
8:50 pm
Gave permission. Why is this news?
homeschooler
May 21st, 2012
9:13 pm
To all who are saying that the mother gave permission, she should have been okay with this…I think the point is that she was okay with her son recieving a paddling but the child had “injuries to his backside”. Now, I would never be okay with someone paddling my child but some people are fine with it. However, if that paddling crosses the line to abuse which, it sounds like this did, those same parents would (and should) be upset. I might be okay with my husband wacking my kid on the butt but if he left a bruise, I’d be ticked! There is a difference in discipline and abuse.
I can’t believe any school would still paddle. I guess I didn’t realize any still did.
Archie
May 21st, 2012
9:14 pm
@Tony: Some private schools in Georgia are run by fundamentalist Christians who believe in the literal interpretation of the old maxim “spare the rod and spoil the child.” The “rod” in the Bible referred to the shepherd’s rod which was used to beat away the wolves or get the timid sheep to cross the swift moving streams in the desert called “wadis” when moving to fresh pasture. Later, the “rod” became associated with the “rod of Moses” and referred to guiding the Israelites in the right paths with authority. The maxim seems to say in this light, “spare the AUTHORITY and spoil the child” which I can see. Authority could well entail a few trips to the “good old woodshed” but guidance entails other things besides that but it has to be “guidance with authority.”
Good Mom Monitor
May 21st, 2012
9:18 pm
Hey, Good Mother! Are you okay? I thought for sure I would see you weighing in on this issue! Got your ears on?
Dr. Proud Black Man
May 21st, 2012
9:21 pm
“They cling to their guns and religion.”
Truth in Moderation
May 22nd, 2012
12:01 am
“Paddlings are often recalled on this blog with wistfulness as if they were a vanishing Southern staple — in the tradition of pickup trucks and pickled okra. It’s time to get rid of paddling in schools. (I would also like to get rid of pickled okra but my husband loves it.)”
Maureen, there you go again with your Southern HATE SPEECH. The issue is using a limited, legally defined physical punishment (the rod) for the purpose of DISCIPLINE. And I believe most cultures use it and it is specifically ordained by our Israeli friends in THE BIBLE. The Jews pointed out that even the ROMANS (aren’t you Roman Catholic?) used it.
It has been shown historicaly that this method has merit in certain situations. ABUSE of corporal punishment is what you are really talking about. If there is a clear cut case of ABUSE, then there are legal means to deal with it. I can tell you, an eight month old that can walk and run out into the street, JUST DOESN’T GET “Time out”. THEY WOULD BE DEAD!
The truth is, a well trained child should not need the rod very often after 6 years of age. But because of ignorant articles like yours, parents are afraid/ignorant of how to correctly train children. THEY DO THEM MORE HARM! Then they get to school and are out of control. The rod or expulsion may be the only choice left. I seem to recall the public schools pushing LITTLE HOUSE ON THE PRAIRIE books in a big way. My favorite was FARMER BOY. I seem to recall a teacher delivering himself from a dangerous bully WITH A HORSE WHIP provided by the Wilders. I NEVER HEARD A CALL FOR THE BOOKS TO BE BANNED FROM PUBLIC SCHOOLS!
Maureen, what is your agenda?
Dr. Craig Spinks/ Georgians for Educational Excellence
May 22nd, 2012
5:16 am
Physical discipline must constitute “the last resort” in the armamentarium of acceptable disciplinary measures available to teachers and school administrators.
I wish it were not so but we must not base our efforts to establish and maintain learning-friendly school environments upon thinking of the wishful variety.
drew (former teacher)
May 22nd, 2012
6:15 am
Bloodbike says: “Gave permission. Why is this news?”
Well, it’s news simply because Maureen is on a mission to outlaw paddling in schools. At least once or twice a year she’ll trot out some paddling incident and use it to push her belief that paddling is brutish and serves no purpose other than to “teach the child to hit”. And BTW, it sounds like this kid has already been taught to hit.
Kids respond differently to various “consequences/punishment”. For some, a simple parent call or conference is enough to do the trick. For others, detention, ISS, OSS, silent lunch, etc., may improve behavior. The purpose of consequences is to improve behavior. For the vast majority of students, the consequences above will lead to better behavior. However, there are a few students who do not respond favorably to those consequences. You can hand them out until the cows come home but it doesn’t effect behavior. And as hard as it is for Maureen (and other anti-paddlers) to accept, some students might just benefit from paddling. That’s right, BENEFIT from it. The bottom line is: does it improve behavior? If it does, it’s working…if it doesn’t, it’s not working.
Maureen: Have you EVER “physically” disciplined your children? Just curious…
Beverly Fraud
May 22nd, 2012
6:50 am
But (no pun intended) I thought some children were kinesthetic learners…
God Bless the Teacher!
May 22nd, 2012
6:55 am
I saw the young man and his mother in an interview this morning. he admitted he had been “whupped” before but hadn’t told his mother about it. I wonder if mom had son in this church run school because he got into too much trouble in public school. I’ve seen that be the case in many instances. I was an administrator in a SMALL, rural, south GA district for a couple of years. The district allowed paddling “as a last resort.” However, when I tried to impliment all other viable options as part of a progressive discipline strategy I was chastised. One teacher in particular would take his students down the hallway to the middle school administrator and elt him paddle the student instead of sending the student to the high school office for discipline. Despite warnings to the teacher, the practice continued. Oh yeah, nothing could be done to the teacher because he was best friends with the BOE chairman. Go far enough OTP and you’re in a different world, trust me. Even if the law prevented paddling, I would bet money it would continue under the radar.
Rob
May 22nd, 2012
7:35 am
I was paddled in school. I deserved it. My parents however, gave the school permission to paddle me if the situation arose. I can tell you now, as a teacher, some of these student were given too many lectures and time outs as kids. They don’t care anymore. If you assign detention, they will skip it. That results in a Saturday school which they will also skip knowing full well that the next two steps are ISS or OSS which is what they want in the end.
So if you do not think corporal punishment is the answer….then what?
WAR
May 22nd, 2012
8:03 am
i like to use my family and neighbors as examples of what happens when you paddle kids. we got them and became success stories. our tree hugging liberal neighbors used time out and their kids (all three of them) never graduated from high school or college and spent alot of time in jail.
thank you parents for disciplining your children.
mystery poster
May 22nd, 2012
8:29 am
@Fred
We had a smoking lounge in my high school. Yes, kids were allowed to smoke on campus (I graduated in 1980).
Maureen Downey
May 22nd, 2012
8:39 am
@drew, Never used corporal punishment and never had it used on me. Nor did my parents have it used on them. That was probably not a philosophical decision in the case of my parents. My maternal grandmother died at age 40, leaving her husband with seven children, including my mother who was about to turn 4. My mother essentially raised herself as her father was too busy running a small grocery store. And my father’s dad ran off, leaving his wife with three young kids. My paternal grandmother worked two jobs to support her children so she was probably too tired to even raise her voice to them. No lawbreakers in either my mother’s or father’s family or in my generation or my children’s, thus far.
Maureen
Logical Dad
May 22nd, 2012
8:45 am
Those that hit kids (whether you use your cute little excuses and misquoted scripture or not) fall into one of two camps: assaultive personality disorder or sex offenders. Period. Those that defend the physcal abuse of children in the schools are defending one of those psychological types. Funny how those that say there is a difference between “beating” and “spanking” are the ones doing the hitting – not those being hit. It’s also amusing how most the beaters think that public schools (which they so cleverly refer to as “government schools”) do nothing right – except beat children, I guess. WAR, I will continue to pray for those victimized by your lack of intelligence. Maureen, you are exactly right in everything you wrote (except the pickled okra part).
A Conservative Voice
May 22nd, 2012
8:50 am
“Before he spanked me, he said, ‘I’m going to beat you until I get tired,”
Money, People, Money……..I’m sure the parents are busy talking with their lawyer(s) about filing a lawsuit, seeking monetary damages…….it ain’t that hard to understand, folks.
A Conservative Voice
May 22nd, 2012
8:52 am
@Dr. Proud Black Man
May 21st, 2012
9:21 pm
“They cling to their guns and religion.”
Who is “They”??????………
Rob
May 22nd, 2012
9:00 am
Logical Dad with an illogical statement.
Logical Dad
May 22nd, 2012
9:09 am
Well, at least we know whose side Rob is on. Thanks for standing up for who you believe in, sir.
Understanding Atlanta
May 22nd, 2012
9:18 am
This is ultimately just a difference of opinion on the issue. There are studies that show the effect of corporal punishment is good and those that show it is bad on the general well-being of the child. At the private school I went to for a few years in Atlanta is was used as a last resort and seldom used.
Rob
May 22nd, 2012
9:20 am
You can beat the straw man all you want “Logical Dad.” You are overlooking an enormous amount of complexities to push your gross generalization.
ABC
May 22nd, 2012
9:46 am
I went to a private school in a large city in South America. This particular school didn’t use physical punishment, but humiliation sure was the order of business. I remember this one teacher I had. I was in 8th grade. I used to bite my nails (and didn’t stop till about a year ago or so). She would routinely and publicly make fun of me and make comments like “your nails look like vomit” and “you are a disgusting human”. This is in front of the whole class. Did it stop me from biting my nails? Like it hell it did. What I cannot comprehend for the life of me is why I didn’t tell my parents she was doing this. I know they would have stopped it.
In a way, I would have rather taken a private paddling at the principal’s office over being humiliated for a whole year.
Old Physics Teacher
May 22nd, 2012
9:48 am
Logical Dad,
Rob’s right. “Those that hit kids (whether you use your cute little excuses and misquoted scripture or not) fall into one of two camps…” really? You define a term using your own binary definition (which is really strange on its own) and then claim both are evil. Here’s an example: You’re obviously a state legislator, right? There are only two types of people: idiots and state legislators. Idiots make illogical arguments and state legislators are extremely idiotic individuals who break people into only two groups.
Whether Rob or I agree or disagree with spanking is totally irrelevant, we’re only discussing the irony in the comparison of your screen name with your argument.
Oh and “..misquoted scripture..” the statement comes from the Book of Proverbs, 13:24, and it’s not a ‘misquote;’ it’s a paraphrase.
And yes, I know my response is pedantic, and as my wife says, “I’m talking down to you.” but this is an education blog and words have meaning, sir.
Logical Dad
May 22nd, 2012
9:49 am
No straw man here. You think it’s okay for a government employee to restrain a child and have someone hit the child with a board. I do not. Quite simple. Not complex in the least (although calling it “complex” seems to be a straw man argument). @Understanding Atlanta, I do not think you will find one non-religious based study that says beating kids in school is good. I stand to be corrected (but I doubt it).
Logical Dad
May 22nd, 2012
9:53 am
Old Physics Teacher. Sorry. You are just misinformed. To justify beating children with the scripture you referenced is absolutely a misquote. The fact that you do not know the difference speaks volumes. Don’t worry, although I am hardly an academic scholar, you could not talk down to me if you tried. Thanks for playing, though.
at WAR
May 22nd, 2012
10:15 am
My liberal, tree-hugging parents didn’t use corporal punishment. They managed to raise a child who is now a V.P. for a multinational telecommunications company, a child who graduated in the top 10 of her class from Emory Law, and a child with an undergraduate degree in engineering and a Master’s degree in administration. A sample size of 2 or 3 is statistically insufficient to reach any conclusions.
William Casey
May 22nd, 2012
10:44 am
In-School Suspension, properly run, is a much more effective punishment/deterrent than paddling. Most of the “students” at Pebblebrook High School back in the ’70’s who experienced ISS with Boyd Morley and myself would have gladly traded the experience for five swats with a paddle. However, the glorified study halls that pass for ISS today are ineffective.
Rob
May 22nd, 2012
10:55 am
Logical Dad, as I stated above I am in favor of it as a last result and only with parental approval. The basis of your straw man is placing my argument under a title you created out of context. When I say the issue is complex, it is not an attempt to build a straw man. It is quite the opposite as I am not focusing in on one aspect to run with but looking at all aspects. For someone that puts “Logical” in their display name, you don’t seem to have a good foundation in logical fallacies.
Old Physics Teacher
May 22nd, 2012
10:58 am
Oh please, please, I’d like to play more… Which words from Proverbs 13:24 is misquoted? Misquote is defined by Webster’s as quoting incorrectly. I repeat: which word was misquoted? For your assistance: Proverbs 13:24 (from the NIV) “Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them.”
In fact the “Bible” never says, “Spare the rod and spoil the child.” That homily (look it up) paraphrases that Proverb in shorter terms and leaves out some information. That’s what a homily does. Now you may claim that the paraphrase takes those words out of context – ehhhh… you may have a case there. Some people would disagree. You may even disagree with the author – that’s your right. That’s what this blog is about. My position: irrelevant. But “misquoted?” Hardly.
Once again, before you use a word, make sure you know the definition. Righteous indignation and holier-than-thou only works if you know what you’re doing.
Rob
May 22nd, 2012
11:00 am
Logical Dad,
It is also funny that you seem to be taking the proverbial “high ground” after Old Physics Teacher basically schooled you.
drew (former teacher)
May 22nd, 2012
11:22 am
Logical Dad says: “Those that hit kids (whether you use your cute little excuses and misquoted scripture or not) fall into one of two camps: assaultive personality disorder or sex offenders.Period.”
That’s it? One or the other, eh? Now I’m left to wonder if my parents were sex offenders or just sufferers of “assaultive personality disorder”. So out of curiosity I googled “assaultive personality disorder”, but apparently it either doesn’t exist, or it’s extremely rare…so rare that there’s nothing on the web about it. Maybe Logical Dad can educate me on this rare disorder.
So, either Logical Dad is full of crap, or my parents were sex offenders. Period.
Dr. Proud Black Man
May 22nd, 2012
11:46 am
@A Conservative Voice
“@Dr. Proud Black Man
May 21st, 2012
9:21 pm
“They cling to their guns and religion.”
Who is “They”??????………”
They would be “you people.” Any other questions?
Dr. Proud Black Man
May 22nd, 2012
11:48 am
@ Maureen
I’m with you! My mother. RIP, raised 4 kids by her self who ALL went on to become successful adults. And with no beating or cursing either. Only in the South do we find it ok to beat kids…smh.
Rob
May 22nd, 2012
11:54 am
Dr. Proud Black Man,
Nice generalizations.
Truth in Moderation
May 22nd, 2012
11:57 am
“Those that hit kids”
@ Logical Dad
Please define your terms. Hitting implies anger with a purpose to injure. Corporal punishment (when administered correctly) implies limited use of physical force to restrain self-harming actions by the perpetrator on a well padded area of the body so that minimal pain is inflicted, but no bodily harm. It is used as a DETERRENT from more harmful activity.
Nature provides us with an example of this: a small child sticks his finger into a flame, feels a sharp pain and quickly removes his hand. THIS BRIEF PAIN IS FOR THE CHILD’S benefit. If he ignored the pain, his finger would get a third degree burn. Once they have experienced brief pain, few children continue to stick their finger in the fire. This is a natural cause and effect response. The child suffers no emotional damage. Children are born with their self-gratification as a primary motivator. The candy tastes good. It is only after eating a whole bag of it that their upset tummy tells them you can have too much of a good thing. An eight month old won’t benefit from a nutrition lecture while he sits in a time out chair. In fact, good luck getting him to SIT in a time out chair. A small child can be trained to immediately obey a “no” command from the parent. If the child disobeys, a light “sting” from a hickory switch followed by a repeat of the command helps the child to “get it”. Parents must INSIST that the small child obey. Notice that this is not “hitting” the child. If a child is trained EARLY to immediately obey their parent’s voice, THEY CAN BE PROTECTED FROM ALL SORTS OF HARM. An untrained out of control child is DANGEROUS TO HIMSELF AND OTHERS! If all parents put away their selfishness and took the time to train their children, there would be no need for corporal punishment in schools. In fact, the clear evidence for total lack of child training IS ON FULL DISPLAY IN MOST SCHOOLS!
The evidence for your assertion is NOT validated.
Dr. Proud Black Man
May 22nd, 2012
12:52 pm
@Rob
Why thank you suh!
Dr. Proud Black Man
May 22nd, 2012
12:55 pm
@ truth in Moderation
“…a light “sting” from a hickory switch…”
How would you like to feel a light tap of my right fist? You are a sadist.
Rob
May 22nd, 2012
12:58 pm
@ Dr. Proud Black Man,
Thank you for that self defeating point. Reread Truth in Moderation’s first paragraph.
Pluto
May 22nd, 2012
1:04 pm
Maybe it’s just a coincidence but what effect has taking paddling out of public schools had on the overall behavior of the student population? If there is no consequence for your behavior, then let’s see what we can get away with.
mystery poster
May 22nd, 2012
1:14 pm
@William Casey
I remember Boyd Morley. Great guy!
He trained the male students to always stand when a woman entered the room. Never since have I encountered manners like that!
Logical Dad
May 22nd, 2012
1:15 pm
Ooohhh. Looks like we got the beaters stirred up today! Drew, Google gave me 329,000 hits in .26 seconds. No idea what you’re talking about. Proverbs 13:24 ” He that spareth his rod hateth his son, but he that loveth him chasteneth him in good season.” What season, Old Physics Teacher? Can we only beat kids during baseball season? And the old canard about “rod” was completely oblitered in Julie Worley’s post at 3:21pm yesterday. Since this is a discussion about beatng kids in school, please tell me how your scripture is relevant? Here’s a clue: it isn’t. (So, you loose. Good day, Sir.) Truth in Moderation and Rob, you two are beyond hope. You are so in love with beating kids that no amount of empircal data that could convince you that you are wrong. Good luck and, as with the others, I will pray for those victimized by your ignorance.
Ron F.
May 22nd, 2012
1:20 pm
“In-School Suspension, properly run, is a much more effective punishment/deterrent than paddling.”
Would that we had that kind of control and influence today in ISS. It’s a joke in most places now.
As to the issue of the article, I don’t spank my kids at home. I didn’t need to, but that is my personal choice. I was spanked growing up and probably earned all of them. If the parents didn’t want the child spanked, then they shouldn’t have put him in that school. I don’t support leaving marks or bruises, but it is a private school, so they determine the extent of acceptable punishment.
Rob
May 22nd, 2012
1:24 pm
Logical Dad
You are defeating your own arguments. Your ad hominem attacks and straw man arguments are not convincing, they’re boring. I’ve never stated that I have ever struck a student, yet you perceive that I have. When you put together a logical argument, let me know.
Also, your Google search brought up the words within the same website but not an actual mental condition called “assaultive personality disorder.” When you google something, put it in quotations for the exact phrase. If you put your mental disorder in quotes and hit search, it comes up with no results. Keep commenting though. Even a blind squirrel gets a nut every now and then. You’ll get something right eventually.
Ron F.
May 22nd, 2012
1:24 pm
Logical Dad- in .17 seconds I got 326,000 responses like this:
Characteristics of Assaultive Patients with Schizophrenia Versus Personality Disorder: Six Year Analysis of the Assaulted Staff Action Program (ASAP) Walker …
So does assaultive p.d. exist or not? I can’t find it either.
Logical Dad
May 22nd, 2012
1:26 pm
*golf clap* to Rob. God luv, ya; you keep trying don’t ya? Bless your heart. If that’s the best response you’ve got, I feel for you.
Rob
May 22nd, 2012
1:31 pm
@Logical Dad,
“*golf clap* to Rob. God luv, ya; you keep trying don’t ya? Bless your heart. If that’s the best response you’ve got, I feel for you.”
Well that’s a perfectly logical and reasonable response….
Is that what you do when you can no longer debate the issues? Do you just hide behind snarky comments without addressing substance? Thanks for proving my point.
Dr. Proud Black Man
May 22nd, 2012
1:37 pm
@ Rob
My last resort would be to send the child home and schedule a conference with the parent(s) of the child to determine why he/she can’t behave. Why do you feel the need to beat someone?
Tonya C.
May 22nd, 2012
1:38 pm
Why is this an issue again? The parent chose a private school with a stated discipline policy. The school administered discipline per the policy. Any issue she has with the school should be taken up with the school directly, not the media.
As to corporal punishment being ONLY a southern thing, I call bull, pure and simple. I have plenty of friends and acquaintances from ‘up north’ who received their fair share of switches and belts to the behind.
I just don’t see why this is such a hot button issue as well. Some people like to Attachment Parent, and while not for me it works for those who want to try it. I have no desire to co-sleep or breastfeed a two-year-old. Those who want to give it a go are free to have at it.
Rob
May 22nd, 2012
1:46 pm
@ Dr. Proud Black Man,
Do you honestly believe that does not go on? Sending the child home is not something you want to do. Why? Because then they are out of school. That means said child is not in class learning where educators want him/her to be. However, in many cases that is where the student wants to be. I’ve seen many students that are assigned detention and will willingly skip it. Why? They know where the consequences lead. Saturday school follows, which will be skipped and then the student can go to ISS and sit around not doing anything. Scheduling a conference with the parent still depends on the parent. Whether or not the parent will come in and actually carry through with “discipline correction” differs from parent to parent.
Also, you are still generalizing. There are differences between beatings and spankings. A swat on the behind is a spanking, punching a kid in the face is a beating.
drew (former teacher)
May 22nd, 2012
1:47 pm
Illogical Dad, you’re still full of crap. Yeah, 329,000 hits, but none with the words “assaultive personality disorder” together. Did you just make that one up? Obviously, you have no idea what you’re talking about. So, you “loose”!
Taxi Smith
May 22nd, 2012
1:48 pm
You can pass any law you like for your public schools. But if you believe in liberty, leave private aschools alone.
Dr. Proud Black Man
May 22nd, 2012
2:01 pm
@ Rob
My last resort would be to send the child home and schedule a conference with the parent(s) of the child to determine why he/she can’t behave. Why do you feel the need to beat someone?
William Casey
May 22nd, 2012
2:07 pm
@mystery poster: FYI– Boyd is doing well and living in Montana. We had a two-hour conversation on schooling yesterday. I remember his rule about standing when a woman entered the room. Truely “Old School.” That’s why he was effective in ISS (called “On Campus Isolation” in those days.)
William Casey
May 22nd, 2012
2:09 pm
@Rob & Logical Dad: it’s time to look for something that WORKS.
Rob
May 22nd, 2012
2:13 pm
@ Dr. Proud Black Man,
Already answered.
Rob
May 22nd, 2012
2:15 pm
@ William Casey,
I’m all ears for a new way and solution. My fear is that the answer does not lie in the teacher’s treatment and discipline of student but rather the parent.
Southern Teacher Mom
May 22nd, 2012
2:30 pm
I teach at an elementary school in a small rural system where corporal punishment is allowed. To those of you who propose that the school call the parents to come get the unruly student: those are the parents that you can NOT find. NOT ONE OF THE NUMBERS ON FILE WORK. When the students are suspended the following day they STILL show up at school and no parent can be found. What do you suggest the school do? Until it is MANDATED by law that parents be actively involved in their childs education, I see no other option for some students. And this is used as a LAST RESORT and only for qualifying offenses.
And it really chaps my butt that posters keep saying “only in the south”. If the North is so much better — then maybe you need to go back up North. And to the ones who say that Private schools are better than Public systems — put your children in private schools and keep your mouth shut about public schools. You cant have it both ways people! Either you are in or you are out.
Rob
May 22nd, 2012
2:34 pm
I think if we could all get over the North vs South crap we’d be better off.
Mr. Proud White Guy
May 22nd, 2012
3:21 pm
@ Dr. Proud Black Man
Mr. Proud White Guy: “They cling to their welfare, thug-culture, and sense of entitlement”.
Dr. Proud Black Man: Who is “They”??????………”
Mr. Proud White Guy: They would be “you people.” Any other questions?
Old Physics Teacher
May 22nd, 2012
3:21 pm
Logical Dad,
… I was going to jump all over you again, but it would be a waste of my time. Rob and Ron F are doing such a good job, I’ll just let your ad hominem attacks go. It’s tempting… I swear it’s tempting ,but I remember, too well, the Black Knight in Monty Python comments: “it’s just a flesh wound.” As Furman Bisher said, “Selah”
Dr. Proud Black Man
May 22nd, 2012
3:26 pm
@ Southern Teacher Mom
We used to have the same problem until the SROs started to take the trespassing students to the sheriff’s office waiting to be picked up by their parent(s). This also cut out that “non working phone” nonsense. Sounds like your school system has no consequences for inappropriate behavior. That’s really what the problem is.
Dr. Proud Black Man
May 22nd, 2012
3:29 pm
@ mr. proud white guy
I’m flattered that you would try to imitate me! Good job Jethro! Now go get your teeth cleaned and fixed.
A Conservative Voice
May 22nd, 2012
4:14 pm
@Dr. Proud Black Man
May 22nd, 2012
11:46 am
@A Conservative Voice
“@Dr. Proud Black Man
May 21st, 2012
9:21 pm
“They cling to their guns and religion.”
Who is “They”??????………”
They would be “you people.” Any other questions?
You’re “funny” in a “weird” sort of way and I really mean that
Old Physics Teacher
May 22nd, 2012
4:42 pm
Dr Proud Black Man,
Your assumption might not entirely correct concerning your comment to Southern Teacher Mom. I’m not one to defend administrators, and I feel uncomfortable here, but the administrators aren’t NECESSARILY the bad guys here (now they could be – but not necessarily). Remember NCLB and whatever we’re going to call what Gov Deal has put in place rate the schools – and their viability – based in part on graduation rate and promotions from one grade to another. If you start suspending kids – either ISS or OSS, the chances of these kids graduating on time decreases. That affects the entire school. I’ve had kids sent back to me that stole from me with the defense that we need to keep these kids in school. One year we lost making AYP by ONE student.
You’re right about the consequences for inappropriate behavior, though. We’re teaching the kids that disrespect will go unpunished. Sigh… Until “society” learns that “every child can learn” does not mean “every child can – OR SHOULD – pass,” teachers will continue to be the ones that get “beaten” and not the child.
homeschooler
May 22nd, 2012
5:02 pm
I wonder if those defending this principal/pastor will change their tune if he gets arrested. I’m all about private schools having the right to run the schools the way they want to but, the law is the law. I suspect this beating boardered on being an arrestable offense. We will see. I just don’t think mom signed up for her child being beaten, only physically punished. I also wonder if any of the posters would allow their child to be spanked by a teacher or principal.
Really, what would you do if you picked your child up from school and he was crying and covered in bruises? You WOULDN’T go straight to the police. Well, than I feel very sorry for your child.
gamom
May 22nd, 2012
5:31 pm
I jsut skimmed over a couple of comments and wanted to chime in. For those of you (Rob) who think this is going on as a last resort, and continue to tout it as a ‘last resort’ do not understand the reality. There are always cases in the news where the kid who gets beat have been repeatedly beat and not as a last resort. I have read stories (and do have friends who have had their children paddled) say that the school never so much as called BEFOREHAND, or child was paddled due to incompletion of homework, failure of a test, etc. In these instances, it was most definitely NOT a last resort. In fact, 11 Alive Atlanta uncovered over 21,000 incidents in the public school system in the 2011/2012 school year. Google Pain As Punishment in Georgia Schools – a real expose on the lack of accountability and even oversight, because it is glaringly obvious that there are plenty of times that go unreported. I also know of cases or have read of cases where the do not paddlie list was completely IGNORED. Bottom line is this….as long as it is legal in Georgia, there will always be educators attracted to using the paddle for whatever reason, even though THEY should know better, given that research indicates it is ineffective. And in my opinion, 21,000 incidents in 1 school year is a darn good indicator that it is ineffective. If it was effective, you would not see that many reported, and I think it is fair to say that a lot of instances go UNREPORTED, so I think the 21,000 is on the low end and that number doesn’t even include PRIVATE SCHOOLS. REally people, this is a public embarassment to our state, our students, the parents and I believe the taxpayers deserve better. It is no longer acceptable in 2012 to have SOMEONE ELSE spank a child, not ever – and the news is full up with stories of parents getting arrested for physical discipline and when a stranger spanks a someone else’s child, they do get arrested (previous article Mo covered).. In my humble opinion, educators (with higher degrees in education) who spank/hit/paddle are doing so out of laziness and expedience, not because they want to help fix a problem. Shame on them and shame on the GA lawmakers for ignoring this issue
gamom
May 22nd, 2012
5:44 pm
ONe other thing ROB, everyone has their own standard as to what constitues a beating or a spanking. There in lies the problem, many people use whooping, beating, spanking interchangeably and do not know the difference, there are many cultural differences too. My children, who have never been spanked, would have a very difficult time attending a school where paddling was going on, if they knew their peers were getting spanked my kids would be traumatized because it is so foreign to them. (mine would be on a no paddle list and I’d be sure they would not ignore my request)
Old Physics Teacher
May 22nd, 2012
6:30 pm
homeschooler,
No, I wouldn’t change any position based on people getting arrested. District Attorneys are elected, and in a lot of cases they prosecute knowing they will lose the case simply so they can say’ “Well, I tried, but the judge and jury went against me.”
I personally spanked all of my children. My Grandchildren go into “timeout.” Whatever discipline works – works. What is important is that punishment, true punishment, always works. You just have to find out which discipline tactics work for a specific situation. I graduated so far back in pre-history that the call to the office for a whipping was done over the entire school WITH the whipping played over the intercom. The reason for whipping was to keep the kid in the classroom and specifically to embarrass the kid into acting properly in the future. I only knew one kid in my entire high school who was spanked. My memory is failing, but I don’t remember more than 5 spankings that happened in my 4 year high school career. The reason that spanking was so rare was because it worked.
Now, kids like to emulate career criminals. They see nothing wrong with being sent to ISS or OSS. For them it is a mark of honor. Spanking is a waste of effort too. The only thing that would be effective is “shunning” – throw the kid out of school and make him/her get a job and support themselves. Then they might discover a use for an education and come back with an appreciation for our (teachers) efforts. We can’t do that either, therefore we, as school employees, are the ones being punished – not the kid.
gamom,
I agree with you about what exactly a whoopin’ is now, and I sure wouldn’t risk my license attempting it. As far as your kids being “traumatized” though, unless they were elementary age, I doubt it. Today’s kids (and I’ll bet your’s are no different) are pretty sophisticated. It’s too much of a “mark of pride” now. Reference a certain Florida marching band?
gamom
May 22nd, 2012
6:38 pm
@Old Physics Teacher – I am the mother, I know my kids…when I said I believe they would be traumatized, I meant it..Don’t discredit what my perspective is.
Gianni
May 22nd, 2012
7:04 pm
Please, let’s start calling things with ther own name, this is nothing more than hitting boys and girls with a piece of wood.. So, it must be banned as quick as possible, and for lot of good reasons.
Instead of the so called paddling, spanking or corporal discipline (I.E. hitting boys and girls with a piece of wood) , the most effective disciplinary measure is to call a parent or legal guardian and keep the family involved for any single misbehaving occasion, threatening expulsion after a determinated number of failures. This will drive the family to apply correct and loving discipline for mantai a good school record.
Furthermore, NOBODY here considers the bare costs of the numerous lawsuits about this matter? Legal fees and compensations can make actual paddling schools of lower quality, this is clear, and weight over taxpayers too.
Too, like in Michael Palmer ’s case (Alvirne High School coach), now registered for life as a sex offender, some “paddlers” can find in the discipline an inadequate thrill, named sexual gratification.
Finally, like in recent Tate County School District’s lawsuit, the “receiving end” can suffer damages like bleeding, broken jaw and shattering of 5 teeth with no (supposed) adult calling 9-1-1 or any other emergency response crew for help the victim.
last but no least ; those beatings are supposed to be given by properly trained personnel.. but who , in the whole Nation, can provide such a training ? Peoples involved on BDSM games?
Think about it a minute, my friends. You will agree with me.
gamom
May 22nd, 2012
7:12 pm
here is a petition going around
http://www.signon.org/sign/end-corporal-punishment
Rob
May 22nd, 2012
7:24 pm
gamom,
I never stated the incident described was a last resort situation did I? Checking back I don’t see that comment anywhere. I am going to assume you are either generalizing, didn’t read my comments in their entirety, or are completely ignorant. I’ll go with “didn’t read my comments in their entirety,” given how common that is on the internet.
Old Physics pretty much addressed every other point you made except for this one.
“@Old Physics Teacher – I am the mother, I know my kids…when I said I believe they would be traumatized, I meant it..Don’t discredit what my perspective is.”
Appealing to emotion or personal experience is a logical fallacy. Actual studies show pretty much what Old Physics suggested. Punishment with reason, spankings included, are productive. The reason is the important part.
Logical Dad
May 22nd, 2012
7:36 pm
Sneaking back in for amoment. Obviously, the troglodyte child beaters will never, EVER be convinced. But it is heartening to see they are a dying breed. Thank you God! Again, it comes down to this Rob, Old Physics Teacher and those of similarly limited intelligence believe it is okay for a government employee to restrain an 8 year olf while another government employee beats that 8 year old with a board while the child is screaming for help from his parents. That’s how sick they are. Flame away child beaters! Flame away!
Rob
May 22nd, 2012
7:42 pm
I like how you are speaking of “limited intelligence” people without the vaguest concept of civil conversation. Also I’m 24; hardly dying off. I have never heard of a government employee holding a child while another administers the spanking (not beating). Especially in this recent case where it is a private employee, but I digress. Usually it is the typical hands on the desk situation. Obviously you don’t know what you are talking about. BTW, appealing to emotion, also a logical fallacy “Logical” Dad.
William Casey
May 22nd, 2012
7:54 pm
@ROB: I earlier posted a solution that worked for us back in 1978. It did not require hitting the students. It required only an iron will. It was based on the premise that being in a regular classroom was a privilege.
Logical Dad
May 22nd, 2012
7:55 pm
Rob, you are wrong. I prosecuted the public school teacher that did EXACTLY that. Convicted with a probated sentence and a loss of certification. Did my heart good to know that he would never be in the classroom again. If you are truly 24, your children (assuming there are any) have my prayers. I thought you were educated and/or experienced. You are neither. Good luck.
gamom
May 22nd, 2012
7:56 pm
Rob Schools are supposed to be using Research and Evidence Based Practices. There is absolutely NO EVIDENCE whatsoever, that the beating of a child by an authority figure other than the parent is effective. NO WAY. No EVIDENCE. If beating of another human was effective, we’d be doing it routinely in other institutions like nursing homes, psychiatric facilities, jails, juvenile detention centers and the state penitentiary. But it is not allowed in any other institution. What do you call it when a husband hits his wife…domestic violence. But somehow people want to kid themself that hitting a child with a wooden board is ‘discipline’. RIGHT. Do that to your dog, you’d be charged with animal cruelty. In Georgia, animals have more rights than schoolchildren it seems.
Logical Dad
May 22nd, 2012
8:19 pm
Preach on gamom. But remember, Rob is a 24 year olf with ALL of the experience of 24 years backing him up. So, I guess, we must bow to his inferior knowledge. (I cannot say enough about how right you are, gamom. Keep fighting the people of limited intelligence.)
Rob
May 22nd, 2012
8:25 pm
There is a problem with that William….these kids would rather be in ISS. Why? Because they would literally rather sit there and do nothing.
gamom
May 22nd, 2012
8:29 pm
Logical Dad – I do believe, with a little more time, and a lot more pressure, the GA lawmakers will be forced to deal with this issue. I have written numerous times to them. A few and I mean a few are starting to get the message. I hope you will take the time to write and call them too. Anyone who beats a child should be fully investigated with all legal consequences bestowed upon them. Rob – I don’t know if you have kids – but Georgia did one good thing…they expanded the requirements for suspected child abuse reporting. There are many more mandated reporters now…lurking everywhere..In stores, in hospitals…wherever. If anyone is suspected of child abuse…yep, that could be spanking in public — they can have the authorities called on them and investigated. Rightly so.
BTW, in Virginia, an educator was just arrested and charged with battery and sexual assault for paddling a student. Amen to that. As it should be. Think twice about what your position is and if you have kids, please do them a favor and look at alternative methods. Too many people can’t control themselves when they are angry and it can easily cross the line to abuse. That’s why it must particularly end in schools
Rob
May 22nd, 2012
8:31 pm
So gamom, because someone disciplines their child with a swat on behind, you’d ring them in for child abuse? Wow. You have some issues.
gamom
May 22nd, 2012
8:35 pm
I believe it is morally responsible to report anything suspicious and I will leave it at that. I would let the authorities sort that out. If I saw a parent hitting a child in anger, I would absolutely report it. Like I said…there are many more mandated reporters now, the law has expanded to include even church volunteers and anyone who works with children. How about that?!
gamom
May 22nd, 2012
8:38 pm
If I saw a person who has lost control and swatted their child, I feel morally responsible to report it to authorities. It would be up to them to investigate and determine if it rose to the level of abuse. That’s not my job to determine, it’s the authorities job.
gamom
May 22nd, 2012
8:53 pm
I would consider school administrators and teachers licensed by the state to be STATE ACTORS. They are getting paid with tax dollars.
Rob
May 22nd, 2012
8:53 pm
You are in fact determining. You are basically determining in every situation whether or not the disciplinary measure you witness receives your nod of approval. Where does that end at? Harsh words are psychologically abusive. Going to report that too?
gamom
May 22nd, 2012
8:55 pm
What is even more stunning, is that teachers are mandated reporters of SUSPECTED abuse, it doesn’t have to be confirmed, just suspected. Rob, do you really think that a teacher in a school that paddles is gonna report their boss?! Ha! never in a million years
another comment
May 22nd, 2012
9:05 pm
This boy should have immediately been expelled from the school for punching the other child. Then the other parents who child was punched should be given the childs name and parent information, so they can file assault charges against the boy. They can also recover any medical costs for the injuries caused their child. The private school should keep all tuition. If they were on a payment plan they should still be liable for the full year. That is how it is done at most schools.
My daughter was assulted in a Cobb County School and on a Cobb County school bus and what ticked me off the most is they would do nothing to give me the childs parents information so I could get reimbursed for my childs medical expenses. I finally went to the Cobb County Police and filed a police report. When I told them that the school did nothing. Then I told them that the bus only stopped at a low income apartment complex and at my $600K subdivision over a mile away, the police said are they nuts or what.
When my kids were in Private school they were in fear of being kicked out. Every parent drove the fear of loosing their tuition into their kids. The only kid we knew that got kicked out was the kid that just got arrested from Campbell last week for sending Peter picture to 16 year olds. He was probably a scholarship kid, so his parents didn’t have any money on the table. When I heard the name on the news I immediately knew who that kid was. The same one that was kicked out of Catholic School.
Rob
May 22nd, 2012
9:08 pm
All mandated reporters file on suspicion as well as affirmation. And as long as their is parental consent why should they?
Rob
May 22nd, 2012
9:09 pm
Private schools have the luxury of kicking kids out because those kids can go to the public school system. It’s harder to do that in the public school arena.
gamom
May 22nd, 2012
9:31 pm
@another comment….you have no idea of the situation. What if a kid throws a punch, because he’s been bullied all darn year?!
Rob
May 22nd, 2012
9:43 pm
@gamom,
I’m confused as to how you condemn certain forms of what you call beating, but apparently justify hitting one another.
gamom
May 22nd, 2012
9:52 pm
Rob – I did not justify it, but you never know about mitigating circumstances. Discipline is definitely required, just not the physical beating kind. Here is a what if…suppose he threw the punch because he was angry and learned this due to a previous paddling….didn’t someone post that this child was paddled once before unbeknownst to the parent?
gamom
May 22nd, 2012
9:53 pm
And repeated harsh discipline has been shown to cause more aggression in males.
Rob
May 22nd, 2012
10:18 pm
I am sorry but how is a punch the result of a paddling. Where is the research that punching comes from paddling? Also you keep using the word harsh discipline in order to merge the words beating and spanking/discipline. Research actually shows that reasonable discipline, spankings included, are productive. (Tulane Study)
Tonya C.
May 22nd, 2012
10:26 pm
Rob:
Don’t. This is a waste of energy. Move on. Gamom only cones in to post on threads about corporal punishment. That’s it. It’s her soapbox.
William Casey
May 22nd, 2012
10:53 pm
@ROB: “There is a problem with that William….these kids would rather be in ISS. Why? Because they would literally rather sit there and do nothing.”
How do you know this, Rob? This was certainly NOT the case with Mr. Morley’s and my ISS program at Pebblebrook.
gamom
May 22nd, 2012
11:04 pm
This is the only Tulane study i am familiar with http://tulane.edu/news/releases/pr_03122010.cfm
Rob
May 23rd, 2012
7:13 am
@Wesley,
The reason I am familiar with this is because I teach. You are also talking about a different generation. Things are different today. Well not different per say, but complicated.
Rob
May 23rd, 2012
7:20 am
@gamom, I was wrong about Tulane but right about the studies.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/98/4/824
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/98/4/828
Old Physics Teacher
May 23rd, 2012
7:41 am
Logical Dad,
“I prosecuted” REALLY??!! You have no logic skills – period. Your sentence structure shows no EVIDENCE of a law school education. What you sound like is exactly the kind of person I teach every day – a high school student invested in his argument so deeply that he makes up things. As far as qualified to discuss Rob’s qualifications… sheesh. You’re not worth the recycled electrons.
gamom,
My comments were not intended to make you believe I don’t think you don’t know your own kids. Rather than filter every comment through a hostile lens, unless “evidence” has been presented otherwise, take comments for what they are. I have no vested interest in either side of this discussion. I was merely trying to give you the benefit of 20 years of experience dealing with thousands of children when you have only the intense experience of dealing with yours. Children are resilient. Gee whiz, lady, relax and enjoy life.
il-Logical Dad (doubtful) and gamom
Oh, and BTW, I’m not now, nor was I ever, (notice the sentence structure of an educated person, kid) in favor of spanking in today’s climate. I’M ON YOUR SIDE!!!!!!!!!!
.
Rob
May 23rd, 2012
7:49 am
Illogical Dad,
I’d say you comments before depict a picture of your “education.” What moronic lawyer lost to you in a court of law? Unless of course you’re lying to advance your own rhetoric.
Rob
May 23rd, 2012
7:50 am
your*
Rob
May 23rd, 2012
7:50 am
Sorry….typing from a phone.
Rob
May 23rd, 2012
7:52 am
Old Physics Teacher,
I am essentially in agreement. I don’t believe in spanking someone’s kids and would be uncomfortable with it even with permission.
Old Physics Teacher
May 23rd, 2012
7:58 am
William Casey,
Our schools used to have the kind of ISS and OSS you discussed, but it is now ineffective. Under this No Child Gets Ahead (NCLB) philosophy that education is being punished with today, the schools MUST graduate ALL students or face overpoweringly harsh penalties. When the disruptive kids are placed in ISS, as Rob says, they just sit there. They don’t learn – mainly because they have been socially promoted and can barely read and write on an elementary grade school level. they have no skills. If you elevate the ISS to OSS, they’re just as happy as anything. that would get them out. In either case, they don’t learn; therefore, they fail their courses. This is no problem with them – they’re only there for the food — or social activities, BUT their failure to pass courses makes EVERY TEACHER and administrator in that school a failure! This now allows the legislature to write new laws and further destroy public education.
It’s a brave new world out here in education land in 2012. Our schools are only as good as our worst students.
Now I do make fun of our state and congress critters (yes, I specifically didn’t capitalize the “c” in congress — they don’t deserve it.), but they’re trying to do their best. It reminds me of the old Rube Goldberg devices. They try something new, and it doesn’t work, so they modify it. And they modify it again; and they modify it again. They are incapable of rational thought — they’re lawyers (ehhh. Maybe Logical Dad IS a lawyer. That would explain his illogical thought processes… I digress).
In any event, the legislature and congress has handicapped the schools and made our ISS and OSS punishments ineffective.
Logical Dad
May 23rd, 2012
9:19 am
I refuse to debate matters of import with a 24 year old. Sorry. I have lawn equipment older than that. However, I must state that I do the diploma, bar card and gray hair to prove that I most assuredly did graduate law school and spent 6 years as an ADA. “I prosecuted” is improper sentence structure? Wha?! It appears that gamom and I struck a nerve with you two. You’re welcome. Anyway, keep on flaming.
William Casey
May 23rd, 2012
9:25 am
@OLD PHYSICS TEACHER: I absolutely agree with you that ISS is currently ineffective. I was an administrator at Chattahoochee H.S. in the ’90’s and directly involved in administering an ISS program that was severely “watered down” in comparison to the pilot program I had participated in at Pebblebrook in the ’70’s. And, this was BEFORE the advent of NCLB. I understand that ISS has been diluted even further since the ’90’s largely because of NCLB. The problem with the watered-down version of ISS is that it encouraged multiple reassignments to the program which would indeed lead to failure. The original program was so harsh and oppressive that almost NOBODY wanted to come back. Yes, there were a few “students” who couldn’t handle ISS and ended-up OSS. However, after being OSS, they had to return to ISS, START OVER in that program and complete it successfully before returning to the regular classroom. It usually worked. As for NCLB, if a “student” is absolutely determined to “be left behind,” there is absolutely nothing ANY school can do to avoid it.
Logical Dad
May 23rd, 2012
9:27 am
I refuse to debate matters of import with a 24 year old. Sorry. I have lawn equipment older than that. However, I must state that I do have the diploma, bar card and gray hair to prove that I most assuredly did graduate law school and spent 6 years as an ADA. “I prosecuted” is improper sentence structure? Wha?! It appears that gamom and I struck a nerve with you two. You’re welcome. Anyway, keep on flaming. (Apologies. Had to correct the sentence structure.)
Rob
May 23rd, 2012
9:29 am
“I refuse to debate matter of import with a 24 year old.”
Sorry I thought this post was on paddling, not the trade business. Also, it is a logical fallacy to discredit one based on generation. Was Tesla unintelligent since he was younger than Edison? Hardly. Of course I recognize that you are behind the curve in matters of logic.
Old Physics was not criticizing your sentence structure on “I prosecuted,” but rather pointing out the irony of the situation. That of course is my take as he will probably have a better grasp on what he meant by that.
Also what nerve? As far as it’s been demonstrated on here, you are both compromised emotionally or purely idiots. I’d ask for my money back from the grad school if I were you.
Rob
May 23rd, 2012
9:34 am
@ William,
I think our first step toward discipline is to realize that either some students do not want to be there, or want to be doing something else. Some students do not grasp the concepts of Physics but are brilliant under the hood of a car. Why don’t we encourage those notions? When kids are a place they don’t want to be, they will get bored and they will act out.
Logical Dad
May 23rd, 2012
9:39 am
That…truly…hurts. Rob. Wow. You don’t like me. I’m crushed. It’s not your age, sport. It’s the fact that you, with your incredible life experience amassed in 24 years, think you are exactly right and everyone else has been “compromised emotionally.” You are in for tough, tough years ahead of you. When you discover that experience is the best teacher – I will accept your apology. (That should be in about ten years.)
At the risk of repeating myself, please confirm that you are in favor of a government employee hitting a child with a wooden board, a child that will be restrained to accept the beating if he does not put his “hands on the desk.” I just want you on the record. None of this liberal waffling about “only as a last resort” or “according to scripture” etc. Just own up to your position that you think it’s appropriate for government employees to hit children with boards.
Rob
May 23rd, 2012
9:51 am
I don’t think I am right I am basing my opinions on study and fact while following the rules of logic. That makes my arguments stronger. Again, you are committing a logical fallacy by thinking that experience is the catch all. Living through a nuclear explosion does not make you expert on nukes any more than living through the War on Terrorism makes your an expert on terrorism. If you feel so strongly in this way, then law should not have been your choice. All those cases of precedent that you did not experience should probably have never been brought in court. Really your arguments are sad.
I’ve already stated my position on the matter and I did so without citing scripture. Why you continue on that track only demonstrates your distortion and generalization of the issue which you obviously do not know about.
William Casey
May 23rd, 2012
10:37 am
@ROB: That’s what I liked about “Old School ISS.” It convinced many kids that there were far worse places to be than the regular classroom.
Rob
May 23rd, 2012
10:39 am
@William,
If that truly worked I’d love to see a return to it.
gamom
May 23rd, 2012
11:18 am
Rob
The a.a.p. Has a position statementopposed to corporal punishment by the looks of yoyr link rob..you are talking about a study from 1996
Rob
May 23rd, 2012
11:23 am
Yes but I am referencing a study from their academic journal. You are not. You are referencing the group.
gamom
May 23rd, 2012
11:23 am
Link to aap position statement http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/106/2/343.full
gamom
May 23rd, 2012
11:25 am
And since 1996 there have been piles of additional studies that refute your assertion
Old Physics Teacher
May 23rd, 2012
11:34 am
Rob,
Don’t waste any more of your time on the “misquoted” Logical Dad. Trying to get through to a teenager when they’re so emotionally involved in reliving their own paddling is a total waste of your time. His absurd attempt (”At the risk of repeating myself, please confirm that you are in favor of a government employee hitting a child with a wooden board, a child that will be restrained to accept the beating if he does not put his “hands on the desk.”) to overstate a position is so typical of a teenager. Any school of law would be so embarrassed by such an attempt by one of their students as to refuse to graduate such an individual.
Rob
May 23rd, 2012
11:36 am
gamom you are wrong. In fact, most sources indicate that the theories and outcomes are refutable if faulty methodology. That includes the study you posted.
Rob
May 23rd, 2012
11:38 am
Old Physics
It’s hard not to waste time on him. It’s like an odd pleasure to read his “logic.”
gamom
May 23rd, 2012
11:54 am
What college of education did you attend Rob? If you are a teacher, didn’t you have to take child development classes. I took a bunch of those classes and not one ever talked about the ‘benefits of corporal punishment’. The studies since 1996 have used various methodologies, and they come up with 1 conclusion. That the chances of harm increases over time as the kid gets older and the corporal punishment continues. Teachers should take an oathe to ‘Do No Harm’. The professional teacher associations all have position statements against it too. I do not want to confuse the issue tho, I am speaking of corporal punishment in schools only. If you have kids of your own, I sincerely doubt you would want any other person to spank them.
Rob
May 23rd, 2012
12:06 pm
I took a lot of Child Development classes, educational theory, classroom management etc. etc. etc. The thing about those is….they are as loose as Psychological theories and constantly evolving. Cube model, engagement model, differentiation so on and so forth.
Now that you have my post you are stating that studies since 1996 show your opinion? What if I show you a study from 2000? Will you year change then as well?
Also note that in the beginning of this post, I used the word Parental Consent. That solidifies my earlier claim that you don’t take the time to read these posts.
(sent from Android)
gamom
May 23rd, 2012
12:45 pm
My point is…parental consent shouldn’t matter. Because the parent is an abuser at home, of course they would rather someone else beat the kid
Rob
May 23rd, 2012
3:08 pm
So the parent, by disciplining their kids at home, is an abuser? Well that’s interesting. Sure are an awful lot of abuse cases unreported in the history of mankind.
Ole Guy
May 23rd, 2012
3:08 pm
During my checkered and somewhat illustrious military career, I attended more than a few schools of one flavor or another. Each class started with a briefing, if you will, of expectations, both academic and behavioral. Inasmuch as these two basic issues were (more or less) expected in the normal course of dealing with twenty-something hot shot pilots, this issue generally did not require much in the way of “corrective actions” on the part of school administrators.
On the first day of one particular course, the instructor made it understood that there would be no exams; we were all considered “mature” enough to grasp the course content for all it was worth and to conduct ourselves with extreme attention to the deportment expected of officers. As far as we were concerned, this was the beginning of a two week all-expense overseas drunk fest where we could pretty much do as we damn well pleased.
While paddling, in and of itself, was pretty much out of the question (even though my fellow pilots and I were not all that far removed from those “school daze” of almost daily sessions with the wood), we were all held to a standard…a very rigid standard…of adhearance to expectations. We all knew the standards; we all adheared to the standards. Why? Not because we were supermen, not because we were special in any way, but simply because, FROM THE EARLIEST DAYS, WE HAD BEEN AFFORDED THE GROUNDWORK FOR DEVELOPING A SENSE OF SELF DISCIPLINE.
And so, gurus of “modern education”, just WHERE and HOW and WHEN do you propose to instill, upon today’s youth, the same groundwork?
high school teacher
May 23rd, 2012
3:34 pm
“My point is…parental consent shouldn’t matter. Because the parent is an abuser at home, of course they would rather someone else beat the kid.”
No, I prefer to beat my own children.
Seriously, there is a difference between beating and spanking. I say that as one who spanks and as one who was spanked. I harbor no ill will towards my parents, and I am a healthy, happy, successful adult (and for Logical Dad’s benefit, I’m 41, so I have a bit more experience than Rob).
That said, I don’t believe that schools should paddle students; leave that to the parents.
Gianni
May 23rd, 2012
10:02 pm
Subject ; hitting boys and girls with a piece of wood – SOME REASONS MORE FOR DON’T DO IT !!
A) this barbaric practice puts definitely teacher’s license and savings at risk, as proven in the Donald Madden (school district of Cumby) case..after two buttock hits on a friday afternoon, in his own words “I did everything I was supposed to do. But I lost my job, lost my health, lost my savings, lost my family” and “I wouldn’t recommend it to anybody, It’s not worth it.”
B) Teacher Protection Act don’t protect paddlers from CPS investigations and Federal Lawsuits for Civil Rights violations at all, please mark the words of Kevin Lungwitz, an Austin attorney who represents educators “What I tell principals is, ‘Just don’t do it, I don’t care what the policy is. All these cases can spell trouble.”
C) Any kind of bruise that lingers even for few hours means “Blunt Trauma Injury” in front of a Jury.
D) School paddlings are surely not a last resort as many school boards affirm, with more than 200,000 beatings a year, with a strong element of discrimination based on gender (boys) and race (Afroamericans and Natives) about victims.
Now, think about it for just 30 seconds, my friends . You will agree with me.
MMead
May 25th, 2012
9:42 pm
In light of the Judge Adams video,
We often hear from those who fight to uphold this practice for those under the age of 18 (even to the blaming of the social maladies of the day on a supposed “lack” of it), but we rarely, if ever, find advocates for the return of corporal punishment to the general adult community, college campuses, inmate population, or military. Why is that?
Ask ten unyielding proponents of child/adolescent/teenage-only “spanking” about the “right” way to do it, and what would be abusive, indecent, or obscene, and you will get ten different answers.
These proponents should consider making their own video-recording of the “right way” to do it.
Visit Parents and Teachers Against Violence in Education, or Spare the Kids to learn more.
MMead
May 25th, 2012
9:43 pm
Currently in the U.S.:
When an adult does it to another adult, its sexual battery:
http://hamptonroads.com/2011/12/va-beach-restaurateur-pleads-guilty-sexual-battery:
When children do it to adults, its a “deviant sexual prank”:
http://www.theday.com/article/20101207/NWS04/101209750
When an adult does it to a person under the age of 18, its “good discipline”.
MMead
May 25th, 2012
9:43 pm
Research/recommended reading:
Spanking Can Make Children More Aggressive Later
http://tulane.edu/news/releases/pr_03122010.cfm
Spanking Kids Increases Risk of Sexual Problems
http://www.unh.edu/news/cj_nr/2008/feb/lw28spanking.cfm
Use of Spanking for 3-Year-Old Children and Associated Intimate Partner Aggression or Violence
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/126/3/415
Spanking Children Can Lower IQ
http://www.unh.edu/news/cj_nr/2009/sept/lw25straus.cfm
Plain Talk About Spanking
by Jordan Riak
http://www.nospank.net/pt2010.pdf
The Sexual Dangers of Spanking Children
by Tom Johnson
http://nospank.net/sdsc2.pdf
“Spanking” can be intentional or unintentional sexual abuse
http://www.nospank.net/101.htm
Logical Dad
May 26th, 2012
3:43 pm
Had forgotten about this thread. Just popped back in to see if Rob and Old Physics Teacher still had their collective fingers in their ears screaming “La La La Logical Dad is illogical La La La!” I was not disappointed. You two are just awesome! Thanks for the entertainment (assuming you’re not serious – no one can be that out-of-touch, right?) MMead, you are, of course, absolutely correct. Be prepared for the namecallers to pounce. It’s all they have left since facts, logic and truth are against them.