Can’t we get paddling out of all schools once and for all?
Given that there are far better and more effective ways to discipline students, why would schools risk lawsuits and criminal charges by striking children?
I still don’t understand how we teach kids not to hit people by hitting them.
Paddlings are often recalled on this blog with wistfulness as if they were a vanishing Southern staple — in the tradition of pickup trucks and pickled okra. It’s time to get rid of paddling in schools. (I would also like to get rid of pickled okra but my husband loves it.)
Schools should not physically discipline children. Suspend them. Call the parents. Send them home. But don’t hit them. It’s wrong. It invites complaints and lawsuits. And it teaches kids to use force to make their points.
Here’s yet another story on yet another spanking incident, this time in a private school where parents apparently have to approve the physical disciplining of their kids:
A family is complaining that their 11-year-old son was paddled excessively as punishment for fighting at his private school, according to Channel 2 Action News. “I don’t know how to explain it. So brutal,” Desmond Omigie told Channel 2 about being spanked by a leader at Hope Christian Academy in Jonesboro.
Desmond said he got into a fight on the basketball court at the school and punched another student in the nose. The school enforces corporal punishment and Robert Taylor, the pastor of the church that runs the school, spanked him, he told Channel 2. “Before he spanked me, he
said, ‘I’m going to beat you until I get tired,” Desmond told Channel 2.The pastor told Channel 2 that he followed procedures when spanking the
fifth grader, and that those are procedures that parents permit. But the boy’s mother, Patricia Omigie, told Channel 2 that injuries to Desmond’s backside prompted her to take him to the doctor and to file a police report indicating the spanking was excessive.
-From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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157 comments Add your comment
at WAR
May 22nd, 2012
10:15 am
My liberal, tree-hugging parents didn’t use corporal punishment. They managed to raise a child who is now a V.P. for a multinational telecommunications company, a child who graduated in the top 10 of her class from Emory Law, and a child with an undergraduate degree in engineering and a Master’s degree in administration. A sample size of 2 or 3 is statistically insufficient to reach any conclusions.
William Casey
May 22nd, 2012
10:44 am
In-School Suspension, properly run, is a much more effective punishment/deterrent than paddling. Most of the “students” at Pebblebrook High School back in the ’70’s who experienced ISS with Boyd Morley and myself would have gladly traded the experience for five swats with a paddle. However, the glorified study halls that pass for ISS today are ineffective.
Rob
May 22nd, 2012
10:55 am
Logical Dad, as I stated above I am in favor of it as a last result and only with parental approval. The basis of your straw man is placing my argument under a title you created out of context. When I say the issue is complex, it is not an attempt to build a straw man. It is quite the opposite as I am not focusing in on one aspect to run with but looking at all aspects. For someone that puts “Logical” in their display name, you don’t seem to have a good foundation in logical fallacies.
Old Physics Teacher
May 22nd, 2012
10:58 am
Oh please, please, I’d like to play more… Which words from Proverbs 13:24 is misquoted? Misquote is defined by Webster’s as quoting incorrectly. I repeat: which word was misquoted? For your assistance: Proverbs 13:24 (from the NIV) “Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them.”
In fact the “Bible” never says, “Spare the rod and spoil the child.” That homily (look it up) paraphrases that Proverb in shorter terms and leaves out some information. That’s what a homily does. Now you may claim that the paraphrase takes those words out of context – ehhhh… you may have a case there. Some people would disagree. You may even disagree with the author – that’s your right. That’s what this blog is about. My position: irrelevant. But “misquoted?” Hardly.
Once again, before you use a word, make sure you know the definition. Righteous indignation and holier-than-thou only works if you know what you’re doing.
Rob
May 22nd, 2012
11:00 am
Logical Dad,
It is also funny that you seem to be taking the proverbial “high ground” after Old Physics Teacher basically schooled you.
drew (former teacher)
May 22nd, 2012
11:22 am
Logical Dad says: “Those that hit kids (whether you use your cute little excuses and misquoted scripture or not) fall into one of two camps: assaultive personality disorder or sex offenders.Period.”
That’s it? One or the other, eh? Now I’m left to wonder if my parents were sex offenders or just sufferers of “assaultive personality disorder”. So out of curiosity I googled “assaultive personality disorder”, but apparently it either doesn’t exist, or it’s extremely rare…so rare that there’s nothing on the web about it. Maybe Logical Dad can educate me on this rare disorder.
So, either Logical Dad is full of crap, or my parents were sex offenders. Period.
Dr. Proud Black Man
May 22nd, 2012
11:46 am
@A Conservative Voice
“@Dr. Proud Black Man
May 21st, 2012
9:21 pm
“They cling to their guns and religion.”
Who is “They”??????………”
They would be “you people.” Any other questions?
Dr. Proud Black Man
May 22nd, 2012
11:48 am
@ Maureen
I’m with you! My mother. RIP, raised 4 kids by her self who ALL went on to become successful adults. And with no beating or cursing either. Only in the South do we find it ok to beat kids…smh.
Rob
May 22nd, 2012
11:54 am
Dr. Proud Black Man,
Nice generalizations.
Truth in Moderation
May 22nd, 2012
11:57 am
“Those that hit kids”
@ Logical Dad
Please define your terms. Hitting implies anger with a purpose to injure. Corporal punishment (when administered correctly) implies limited use of physical force to restrain self-harming actions by the perpetrator on a well padded area of the body so that minimal pain is inflicted, but no bodily harm. It is used as a DETERRENT from more harmful activity.
Nature provides us with an example of this: a small child sticks his finger into a flame, feels a sharp pain and quickly removes his hand. THIS BRIEF PAIN IS FOR THE CHILD’S benefit. If he ignored the pain, his finger would get a third degree burn. Once they have experienced brief pain, few children continue to stick their finger in the fire. This is a natural cause and effect response. The child suffers no emotional damage. Children are born with their self-gratification as a primary motivator. The candy tastes good. It is only after eating a whole bag of it that their upset tummy tells them you can have too much of a good thing. An eight month old won’t benefit from a nutrition lecture while he sits in a time out chair. In fact, good luck getting him to SIT in a time out chair. A small child can be trained to immediately obey a “no” command from the parent. If the child disobeys, a light “sting” from a hickory switch followed by a repeat of the command helps the child to “get it”. Parents must INSIST that the small child obey. Notice that this is not “hitting” the child. If a child is trained EARLY to immediately obey their parent’s voice, THEY CAN BE PROTECTED FROM ALL SORTS OF HARM. An untrained out of control child is DANGEROUS TO HIMSELF AND OTHERS! If all parents put away their selfishness and took the time to train their children, there would be no need for corporal punishment in schools. In fact, the clear evidence for total lack of child training IS ON FULL DISPLAY IN MOST SCHOOLS!
The evidence for your assertion is NOT validated.
Dr. Proud Black Man
May 22nd, 2012
12:52 pm
@Rob
Why thank you suh!
Dr. Proud Black Man
May 22nd, 2012
12:55 pm
@ truth in Moderation
“…a light “sting” from a hickory switch…”
How would you like to feel a light tap of my right fist? You are a sadist.
Rob
May 22nd, 2012
12:58 pm
@ Dr. Proud Black Man,
Thank you for that self defeating point. Reread Truth in Moderation’s first paragraph.
Pluto
May 22nd, 2012
1:04 pm
Maybe it’s just a coincidence but what effect has taking paddling out of public schools had on the overall behavior of the student population? If there is no consequence for your behavior, then let’s see what we can get away with.
mystery poster
May 22nd, 2012
1:14 pm
@William Casey
I remember Boyd Morley. Great guy!
He trained the male students to always stand when a woman entered the room. Never since have I encountered manners like that!
Logical Dad
May 22nd, 2012
1:15 pm
Ooohhh. Looks like we got the beaters stirred up today! Drew, Google gave me 329,000 hits in .26 seconds. No idea what you’re talking about. Proverbs 13:24 ” He that spareth his rod hateth his son, but he that loveth him chasteneth him in good season.” What season, Old Physics Teacher? Can we only beat kids during baseball season? And the old canard about “rod” was completely oblitered in Julie Worley’s post at 3:21pm yesterday. Since this is a discussion about beatng kids in school, please tell me how your scripture is relevant? Here’s a clue: it isn’t. (So, you loose. Good day, Sir.) Truth in Moderation and Rob, you two are beyond hope. You are so in love with beating kids that no amount of empircal data that could convince you that you are wrong. Good luck and, as with the others, I will pray for those victimized by your ignorance.
Ron F.
May 22nd, 2012
1:20 pm
“In-School Suspension, properly run, is a much more effective punishment/deterrent than paddling.”
Would that we had that kind of control and influence today in ISS. It’s a joke in most places now.
As to the issue of the article, I don’t spank my kids at home. I didn’t need to, but that is my personal choice. I was spanked growing up and probably earned all of them. If the parents didn’t want the child spanked, then they shouldn’t have put him in that school. I don’t support leaving marks or bruises, but it is a private school, so they determine the extent of acceptable punishment.
Rob
May 22nd, 2012
1:24 pm
Logical Dad
You are defeating your own arguments. Your ad hominem attacks and straw man arguments are not convincing, they’re boring. I’ve never stated that I have ever struck a student, yet you perceive that I have. When you put together a logical argument, let me know.
Also, your Google search brought up the words within the same website but not an actual mental condition called “assaultive personality disorder.” When you google something, put it in quotations for the exact phrase. If you put your mental disorder in quotes and hit search, it comes up with no results. Keep commenting though. Even a blind squirrel gets a nut every now and then. You’ll get something right eventually.
Ron F.
May 22nd, 2012
1:24 pm
Logical Dad- in .17 seconds I got 326,000 responses like this:
Characteristics of Assaultive Patients with Schizophrenia Versus Personality Disorder: Six Year Analysis of the Assaulted Staff Action Program (ASAP) Walker …
So does assaultive p.d. exist or not? I can’t find it either.
Logical Dad
May 22nd, 2012
1:26 pm
*golf clap* to Rob. God luv, ya; you keep trying don’t ya? Bless your heart. If that’s the best response you’ve got, I feel for you.
Rob
May 22nd, 2012
1:31 pm
@Logical Dad,
“*golf clap* to Rob. God luv, ya; you keep trying don’t ya? Bless your heart. If that’s the best response you’ve got, I feel for you.”
Well that’s a perfectly logical and reasonable response….
Is that what you do when you can no longer debate the issues? Do you just hide behind snarky comments without addressing substance? Thanks for proving my point.
Dr. Proud Black Man
May 22nd, 2012
1:37 pm
@ Rob
My last resort would be to send the child home and schedule a conference with the parent(s) of the child to determine why he/she can’t behave. Why do you feel the need to beat someone?
Tonya C.
May 22nd, 2012
1:38 pm
Why is this an issue again? The parent chose a private school with a stated discipline policy. The school administered discipline per the policy. Any issue she has with the school should be taken up with the school directly, not the media.
As to corporal punishment being ONLY a southern thing, I call bull, pure and simple. I have plenty of friends and acquaintances from ‘up north’ who received their fair share of switches and belts to the behind.
I just don’t see why this is such a hot button issue as well. Some people like to Attachment Parent, and while not for me it works for those who want to try it. I have no desire to co-sleep or breastfeed a two-year-old. Those who want to give it a go are free to have at it.
Rob
May 22nd, 2012
1:46 pm
@ Dr. Proud Black Man,
Do you honestly believe that does not go on? Sending the child home is not something you want to do. Why? Because then they are out of school. That means said child is not in class learning where educators want him/her to be. However, in many cases that is where the student wants to be. I’ve seen many students that are assigned detention and will willingly skip it. Why? They know where the consequences lead. Saturday school follows, which will be skipped and then the student can go to ISS and sit around not doing anything. Scheduling a conference with the parent still depends on the parent. Whether or not the parent will come in and actually carry through with “discipline correction” differs from parent to parent.
Also, you are still generalizing. There are differences between beatings and spankings. A swat on the behind is a spanking, punching a kid in the face is a beating.
drew (former teacher)
May 22nd, 2012
1:47 pm
Illogical Dad, you’re still full of crap. Yeah, 329,000 hits, but none with the words “assaultive personality disorder” together. Did you just make that one up? Obviously, you have no idea what you’re talking about. So, you “loose”!
Taxi Smith
May 22nd, 2012
1:48 pm
You can pass any law you like for your public schools. But if you believe in liberty, leave private aschools alone.
Dr. Proud Black Man
May 22nd, 2012
2:01 pm
@ Rob
My last resort would be to send the child home and schedule a conference with the parent(s) of the child to determine why he/she can’t behave. Why do you feel the need to beat someone?
William Casey
May 22nd, 2012
2:07 pm
@mystery poster: FYI– Boyd is doing well and living in Montana. We had a two-hour conversation on schooling yesterday. I remember his rule about standing when a woman entered the room. Truely “Old School.” That’s why he was effective in ISS (called “On Campus Isolation” in those days.)
William Casey
May 22nd, 2012
2:09 pm
@Rob & Logical Dad: it’s time to look for something that WORKS.
Rob
May 22nd, 2012
2:13 pm
@ Dr. Proud Black Man,
Already answered.
Rob
May 22nd, 2012
2:15 pm
@ William Casey,
I’m all ears for a new way and solution. My fear is that the answer does not lie in the teacher’s treatment and discipline of student but rather the parent.
Southern Teacher Mom
May 22nd, 2012
2:30 pm
I teach at an elementary school in a small rural system where corporal punishment is allowed. To those of you who propose that the school call the parents to come get the unruly student: those are the parents that you can NOT find. NOT ONE OF THE NUMBERS ON FILE WORK. When the students are suspended the following day they STILL show up at school and no parent can be found. What do you suggest the school do? Until it is MANDATED by law that parents be actively involved in their childs education, I see no other option for some students. And this is used as a LAST RESORT and only for qualifying offenses.
And it really chaps my butt that posters keep saying “only in the south”. If the North is so much better — then maybe you need to go back up North. And to the ones who say that Private schools are better than Public systems — put your children in private schools and keep your mouth shut about public schools. You cant have it both ways people! Either you are in or you are out.
Rob
May 22nd, 2012
2:34 pm
I think if we could all get over the North vs South crap we’d be better off.
Mr. Proud White Guy
May 22nd, 2012
3:21 pm
@ Dr. Proud Black Man
Mr. Proud White Guy: “They cling to their welfare, thug-culture, and sense of entitlement”.
Dr. Proud Black Man: Who is “They”??????………”
Mr. Proud White Guy: They would be “you people.” Any other questions?
Old Physics Teacher
May 22nd, 2012
3:21 pm
Logical Dad,
… I was going to jump all over you again, but it would be a waste of my time. Rob and Ron F are doing such a good job, I’ll just let your ad hominem attacks go. It’s tempting… I swear it’s tempting ,but I remember, too well, the Black Knight in Monty Python comments: “it’s just a flesh wound.” As Furman Bisher said, “Selah”
Dr. Proud Black Man
May 22nd, 2012
3:26 pm
@ Southern Teacher Mom
We used to have the same problem until the SROs started to take the trespassing students to the sheriff’s office waiting to be picked up by their parent(s). This also cut out that “non working phone” nonsense. Sounds like your school system has no consequences for inappropriate behavior. That’s really what the problem is.
Dr. Proud Black Man
May 22nd, 2012
3:29 pm
@ mr. proud white guy
I’m flattered that you would try to imitate me! Good job Jethro! Now go get your teeth cleaned and fixed.
A Conservative Voice
May 22nd, 2012
4:14 pm
@Dr. Proud Black Man
May 22nd, 2012
11:46 am
@A Conservative Voice
“@Dr. Proud Black Man
May 21st, 2012
9:21 pm
“They cling to their guns and religion.”
Who is “They”??????………”
They would be “you people.” Any other questions?
You’re “funny” in a “weird” sort of way and I really mean that
Old Physics Teacher
May 22nd, 2012
4:42 pm
Dr Proud Black Man,
Your assumption might not entirely correct concerning your comment to Southern Teacher Mom. I’m not one to defend administrators, and I feel uncomfortable here, but the administrators aren’t NECESSARILY the bad guys here (now they could be – but not necessarily). Remember NCLB and whatever we’re going to call what Gov Deal has put in place rate the schools – and their viability – based in part on graduation rate and promotions from one grade to another. If you start suspending kids – either ISS or OSS, the chances of these kids graduating on time decreases. That affects the entire school. I’ve had kids sent back to me that stole from me with the defense that we need to keep these kids in school. One year we lost making AYP by ONE student.
You’re right about the consequences for inappropriate behavior, though. We’re teaching the kids that disrespect will go unpunished. Sigh… Until “society” learns that “every child can learn” does not mean “every child can – OR SHOULD – pass,” teachers will continue to be the ones that get “beaten” and not the child.
homeschooler
May 22nd, 2012
5:02 pm
I wonder if those defending this principal/pastor will change their tune if he gets arrested. I’m all about private schools having the right to run the schools the way they want to but, the law is the law. I suspect this beating boardered on being an arrestable offense. We will see. I just don’t think mom signed up for her child being beaten, only physically punished. I also wonder if any of the posters would allow their child to be spanked by a teacher or principal.
Really, what would you do if you picked your child up from school and he was crying and covered in bruises? You WOULDN’T go straight to the police. Well, than I feel very sorry for your child.
gamom
May 22nd, 2012
5:31 pm
I jsut skimmed over a couple of comments and wanted to chime in. For those of you (Rob) who think this is going on as a last resort, and continue to tout it as a ‘last resort’ do not understand the reality. There are always cases in the news where the kid who gets beat have been repeatedly beat and not as a last resort. I have read stories (and do have friends who have had their children paddled) say that the school never so much as called BEFOREHAND, or child was paddled due to incompletion of homework, failure of a test, etc. In these instances, it was most definitely NOT a last resort. In fact, 11 Alive Atlanta uncovered over 21,000 incidents in the public school system in the 2011/2012 school year. Google Pain As Punishment in Georgia Schools – a real expose on the lack of accountability and even oversight, because it is glaringly obvious that there are plenty of times that go unreported. I also know of cases or have read of cases where the do not paddlie list was completely IGNORED. Bottom line is this….as long as it is legal in Georgia, there will always be educators attracted to using the paddle for whatever reason, even though THEY should know better, given that research indicates it is ineffective. And in my opinion, 21,000 incidents in 1 school year is a darn good indicator that it is ineffective. If it was effective, you would not see that many reported, and I think it is fair to say that a lot of instances go UNREPORTED, so I think the 21,000 is on the low end and that number doesn’t even include PRIVATE SCHOOLS. REally people, this is a public embarassment to our state, our students, the parents and I believe the taxpayers deserve better. It is no longer acceptable in 2012 to have SOMEONE ELSE spank a child, not ever – and the news is full up with stories of parents getting arrested for physical discipline and when a stranger spanks a someone else’s child, they do get arrested (previous article Mo covered).. In my humble opinion, educators (with higher degrees in education) who spank/hit/paddle are doing so out of laziness and expedience, not because they want to help fix a problem. Shame on them and shame on the GA lawmakers for ignoring this issue
gamom
May 22nd, 2012
5:44 pm
ONe other thing ROB, everyone has their own standard as to what constitues a beating or a spanking. There in lies the problem, many people use whooping, beating, spanking interchangeably and do not know the difference, there are many cultural differences too. My children, who have never been spanked, would have a very difficult time attending a school where paddling was going on, if they knew their peers were getting spanked my kids would be traumatized because it is so foreign to them. (mine would be on a no paddle list and I’d be sure they would not ignore my request)
Old Physics Teacher
May 22nd, 2012
6:30 pm
homeschooler,
No, I wouldn’t change any position based on people getting arrested. District Attorneys are elected, and in a lot of cases they prosecute knowing they will lose the case simply so they can say’ “Well, I tried, but the judge and jury went against me.”
I personally spanked all of my children. My Grandchildren go into “timeout.” Whatever discipline works – works. What is important is that punishment, true punishment, always works. You just have to find out which discipline tactics work for a specific situation. I graduated so far back in pre-history that the call to the office for a whipping was done over the entire school WITH the whipping played over the intercom. The reason for whipping was to keep the kid in the classroom and specifically to embarrass the kid into acting properly in the future. I only knew one kid in my entire high school who was spanked. My memory is failing, but I don’t remember more than 5 spankings that happened in my 4 year high school career. The reason that spanking was so rare was because it worked.
Now, kids like to emulate career criminals. They see nothing wrong with being sent to ISS or OSS. For them it is a mark of honor. Spanking is a waste of effort too. The only thing that would be effective is “shunning” – throw the kid out of school and make him/her get a job and support themselves. Then they might discover a use for an education and come back with an appreciation for our (teachers) efforts. We can’t do that either, therefore we, as school employees, are the ones being punished – not the kid.
gamom,
I agree with you about what exactly a whoopin’ is now, and I sure wouldn’t risk my license attempting it. As far as your kids being “traumatized” though, unless they were elementary age, I doubt it. Today’s kids (and I’ll bet your’s are no different) are pretty sophisticated. It’s too much of a “mark of pride” now. Reference a certain Florida marching band?
gamom
May 22nd, 2012
6:38 pm
@Old Physics Teacher – I am the mother, I know my kids…when I said I believe they would be traumatized, I meant it..Don’t discredit what my perspective is.
Gianni
May 22nd, 2012
7:04 pm
Please, let’s start calling things with ther own name, this is nothing more than hitting boys and girls with a piece of wood.. So, it must be banned as quick as possible, and for lot of good reasons.
Instead of the so called paddling, spanking or corporal discipline (I.E. hitting boys and girls with a piece of wood) , the most effective disciplinary measure is to call a parent or legal guardian and keep the family involved for any single misbehaving occasion, threatening expulsion after a determinated number of failures. This will drive the family to apply correct and loving discipline for mantai a good school record.
Furthermore, NOBODY here considers the bare costs of the numerous lawsuits about this matter? Legal fees and compensations can make actual paddling schools of lower quality, this is clear, and weight over taxpayers too.
Too, like in Michael Palmer ’s case (Alvirne High School coach), now registered for life as a sex offender, some “paddlers” can find in the discipline an inadequate thrill, named sexual gratification.
Finally, like in recent Tate County School District’s lawsuit, the “receiving end” can suffer damages like bleeding, broken jaw and shattering of 5 teeth with no (supposed) adult calling 9-1-1 or any other emergency response crew for help the victim.
last but no least ; those beatings are supposed to be given by properly trained personnel.. but who , in the whole Nation, can provide such a training ? Peoples involved on BDSM games?
Think about it a minute, my friends. You will agree with me.
gamom
May 22nd, 2012
7:12 pm
here is a petition going around
http://www.signon.org/sign/end-corporal-punishment
Rob
May 22nd, 2012
7:24 pm
gamom,
I never stated the incident described was a last resort situation did I? Checking back I don’t see that comment anywhere. I am going to assume you are either generalizing, didn’t read my comments in their entirety, or are completely ignorant. I’ll go with “didn’t read my comments in their entirety,” given how common that is on the internet.
Old Physics pretty much addressed every other point you made except for this one.
“@Old Physics Teacher – I am the mother, I know my kids…when I said I believe they would be traumatized, I meant it..Don’t discredit what my perspective is.”
Appealing to emotion or personal experience is a logical fallacy. Actual studies show pretty much what Old Physics suggested. Punishment with reason, spankings included, are productive. The reason is the important part.
Logical Dad
May 22nd, 2012
7:36 pm
Sneaking back in for amoment. Obviously, the troglodyte child beaters will never, EVER be convinced. But it is heartening to see they are a dying breed. Thank you God! Again, it comes down to this Rob, Old Physics Teacher and those of similarly limited intelligence believe it is okay for a government employee to restrain an 8 year olf while another government employee beats that 8 year old with a board while the child is screaming for help from his parents. That’s how sick they are. Flame away child beaters! Flame away!
Rob
May 22nd, 2012
7:42 pm
I like how you are speaking of “limited intelligence” people without the vaguest concept of civil conversation. Also I’m 24; hardly dying off. I have never heard of a government employee holding a child while another administers the spanking (not beating). Especially in this recent case where it is a private employee, but I digress. Usually it is the typical hands on the desk situation. Obviously you don’t know what you are talking about. BTW, appealing to emotion, also a logical fallacy “Logical” Dad.
William Casey
May 22nd, 2012
7:54 pm
@ROB: I earlier posted a solution that worked for us back in 1978. It did not require hitting the students. It required only an iron will. It was based on the premise that being in a regular classroom was a privilege.