Former U.S. ed secretary on legacy of No Child Left Behind
Margaret Spellings
Daniel Malloy, the AJC’s reporter in Washington, D.C., sat down with former U.S. Education Secretary Margaret Spellings for an interview at an event in Washington today. Here are her answers to a series of questions on major education issues:
DM: Cheating scandal call testing into question?
Spellings: I think obviously the vast majority of educators and education leaders take assessment seriously and the integrity seriously and don’t cheat. When it does happen it ought to be addressed and attended to vigorously. Obviously, we saw that exact same thing play out in Atlanta and what encourages me when I think about the Atlanta case study, the business community, as you know, was very engaged, got a little sideswiped by the scandal, a little aggrieved by their engagement that was rewarded with this sort of behavior. I think to their credit they’ve stayed engaged and active and continue to be and are moving forward to the benefit of kids. Often we take our eye off the ball with students and achievement and get ensnared – in that case – in criminal activity, when we really need to stay focused on the mission. So I think it’s a good news story that bad things can happen and the business community can stay engaged and do good things.
DM: Is there a way to keep standards without incentivizing cheating?
Spellings: Accountability and assessment is a way of life. We need to isolate and attend to and be very vigorous in the way we treat cheating and scandal as we do kind of generally. But to say that we’re not going to have assessment anymore, we’re going to go back to the days of not caring enough to find out would be a very, very wrong direction in my view.
DM: So you still see national standards as a part of the future?
Spellings: Standards, accountability, transparency, absolutely. And when there are bad actors we ought to call them out, but we shouldn’t get rid of assessment.
DM: Does that fit in with your vision of more power at the local level?
Spellings: Absolutely. In the business community we want people who are capable of making it to the workplace. We are more concerned with the product and the outcome. The only way we’re going to know if we’re successful is if we have strong accountability. All the how-to that gets done at the local level, how teachers get paid, how they’re allocated, what the pension plan looks like, what the bus routes are, what the role of technology is and on and on. Those are all appropriate decisions for local policymakers. We in the business community — how are the kids doing, period.
DM: What are the prospects for NCLB reauthorization?
Spellings: Not anytime this year I wouldn’t think. We’re, as you know, in a heavy duty political year and I wouldn’t try to predict the behavior of the Congress but I wouldn’t go along on a bet for reauthorization.
DM: Why is this so hard to get done?
Spellings: Well, a variety of reasons. Obviously budget constraints, the toxic political climate that’s up there, the fact that it’s a major major piece of legislation. It’s 1,000-plus pages. It affects every community and every citizen and every kid in this country. What, frankly, is more compelling and interesting in my view is the fact that we passed the thing in the first place with these amazing bipartisan margins. I mean 87-10 in the Senate. You can’t pass a motion to adjourn 87-10 in the Senate. So, honestly, that’s one of the things I’m most proud of is that it was so bipartisan in the first place. We all know how easy it is to be partisan, what’s hard is being bipartisan.
DM: What’s the legacy of the law at this point?
Spellings: The fact that we’ve greatly enhanced a focus on poor and minority kids and we’re telling the truth about the state of affairs in our schools, which is sadly and woefully inadequate.
DM: Are you bothered by the amount of criticism and number of state waivers being sought right now? You mentioned you employed waivers when you were secretary?
Spellings: I think obviously it’s a tool and I think it has to be used judiciously and discreetly so I’m worried that we’re going too far when clearly the intent of the law is to have annual accountability and so when states are approved to go to every other year things like that concern me, absolutely.
DM: Was it unrealistic to call for 100 percent proficiency?
Spellings: On any given day there are plenty of kids who are out of the accountability system in keeping with the requirements of the law – they’re transitioning to English, they haven’t been in that particular school on campus enough, they are severely and profoundly disabled. So, every day a good number of kids are righteously and rightfully out of the accountability system. The question remains of the remaining 90 percent or so that remain in an accountability system: Should they ever get to grade level in reading and math — at a very low standard in most states? So, the idea that we’re now saying we can’t get to grade level in very, very crude basic measures over a 12-year period but we are going to get to international standards by 2020, I want to believe but these same folks that are making these same promises on the Race to the Top and the waiver applications are the same folks that have brought us down so far.
DM: Is it going to be possible to enforce national standards with politics moving to more local control?
Spellings: That’s why the business community and local accountability are essential ingredients for us not to lose track. We can raise the bar and some kids will get over it but what No Child Left Behind is about is opportunities for every kid, and right now we have half of our minority kids and poor kids getting out of high school on time – it’s shameful. And when I talk to parents and say, you know, I’ll just ask: When did you think your parents wanted you on grade level? When you were in the third grade, they wanted you doing third grade work. If I came into your parents sand said “I think we can get Daniel on grade level in 12 years” they would have had you out of the school by noon. And this idea that what we want for ourselves is different from what minority parents want is just wrong.
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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79 comments Add your comment
mountain man
May 16th, 2012
6:26 am
“Unfortunately, this is not what NCLB asks for. We must produce students who have an passing understanding of algebra AND geometry. Not basic math. We must produce students who understand “basic” chemistry and “basic” physics.”
I hear you on that one. How are you supposed to teach algebra and geometry to students who cannot add and subtract, or do fractions? How do you teach physics to students who cannot even read their textbook? The answer – you can’t. So much for social promotion. If a student can’t do simple math, they need to be in the 4th grade – no matter what their age. If they are reading on a 5th grade level, they need to be in the 5th grade – even if they are sixteen years old.
mountain man
May 16th, 2012
6:31 am
Define quality any way you want. At the company I work for we require a high school diploma or GED certificate. You have to complete the application in the office, so you can’t take it home and get someone else to fill it out for you. If it is imcomplete or incorrect it goes straight into the trash.
You know, there are only so many garbagemen and ditchdigger (sorry, scratch that last one – it requires more education) jobs out there for all of the dropouts to compete for. That is why the unemployment rate is so high for dropouts. You are not doing these kids any favors by socially promoting them or teaching “critical thinking skills” when they can’t read, write, and do arithmetic.
mountain man
May 16th, 2012
6:31 am
incomplete
catlady
May 16th, 2012
6:48 am
This one is a waste of space, IMHO.
catlady
May 16th, 2012
6:53 am
“Vacuous” comes to mind.
HS English Teacher
May 16th, 2012
7:20 am
@ Tabitha–If you want to know where the NCLB dollars went, investigate the testing companies and their consultants. Pearson is close to becoming a monopoly.
DawgDad
May 16th, 2012
7:34 am
“No Child Left Behind has been a totally miserable failure.” Ha. Running from the light of day, are we?
Ms. Spellings comments make a lot of sense. Common sense.
Mary Elizabeth
May 16th, 2012
7:34 am
@mountain man, 6:31 am
“You are not doing these kids any favors by socially promoting them or teaching ‘critical thinking skills’ when they can’t read, write, and do arithmetic.”
————————————————————————
We need a paradigm shift in how we think of “grade levels.” If teachers were to continuously teach every student where he is functioning in “reading, writing, and arithmetic” (and not be overly concerned about his grade level), then students could be “passed” to the next grade level (provided that they have advanced according to their individual ability levels) while they are continuously being instructed in their individual reading, writing, and arithmetic skills, (and while they are, also, being taught critical thinking skills). This plan is not a “social promotion” model. It is called a “continuous progress” academic model, within a mastery learning academic structure. Students will not all learn the same body of material, at the same point in time. See the following link on “Mastery Learning” to understand why this is true. All educators – from individual teachers to the highest aministrator in the U. S. Department of Educations – need to understand that this academic phenomenon will always be true, and address it in concrete structural ways.
http://maryelizabethsings.wordpress.com/2012/01/15/about-education-essay-1-mastery-learning/
Anonmom
May 16th, 2012
8:05 am
Really, read “Weapons of Mass Instructions” — it really does document and tie all of this together, going back to the late 1800s in American education… it will help this all make lots of sense. Statistically, NCLB is impossible. It’s goals of focusing and breaking down subgroups are good – although impossible for those with IQs under 100 to be on grade level with their peers but that community, which lobbied for inclusion due to lovely bill labeling, didn’t understand the ramifications of inclusion. There’s also no reason to double and triple count kids in sub groups or to allow transfers and labels to apply to the entire school — if one or two subgroups isn’t doing well. This is compounded if transfers are allowed into a school where the same subgroup isn’t doing well (yes, this happens time after time in DCSS). There’s much about NCLB that just doesn’t work beyond just encouraging cheating and allowing states to develop their own standards instead of focusing on “best practices” coming from the “top” states in the country (and I’m very much in favor of state’s rights).
what's best for kids???
May 16th, 2012
8:17 am
@ catlady,
Vapid and bovine come to my mind.
what's best for kids???
May 16th, 2012
8:21 am
Okay, testing.
My child will be in kindergarten net year. At the orientation, we were told that she will have seven standardized tests next year…in KINDERGARTEN! Two are state mandated (GKIDS), three are county mandated (Math test of some sort; I forget the name), and two school mandated (DIBBLES?). She’s five years old.
Can shehold a pencil and write her letters in both capital and lower case?
Can she count to a hundred?
Can she read Dick and Jane?
If so, I think she’s ready for first grade.
Seriously.
If she went to school and told her teacher that I made her sit for two hours without moving or talking, the teacher would call DFACS. Yet I am a bad parent if I don’t want to send my child to school on testing day.
Private school looks better and better, and I am a public school teacher.
what's best for kids???
May 16th, 2012
8:24 am
And one more thing: How can we instill the love of learning with all of these tests? I watch kids come to school with an innate curiosity that is squashed like a bug after the first big test.
Anybody know of a good private school that isn’t super expensive?
what's best for kids???
May 16th, 2012
8:50 am
And because I can…there are about ten run-on sentences in this piece. Just sayin’.
Joke on us
May 16th, 2012
9:04 am
others from the bush admin have admitted part of NCLB was designed to ruin public education and make way for vouchers. Spellings seems to still be preaching the business model; when the business model doesnt even work. JP Morgan; wall street crash, all of those where built on “certain” models and they failed. 100% of students graduating on time and with more rigor (new buzz word)
is laughable
Mary Elizabeth
May 16th, 2012
9:15 am
@Joke on us, 9:04 am
“others from the bush admin have admitted part of NCLB was designed to ruin public education and make way for vouchers. Spellings seems to still be preaching the business model; when the business model doesnt even work. JP Morgan; wall street crash, all of those where built on “certain” models and they failed. 100% of students graduating on time and with more rigor (new buzz word)
is laughable.”
========================================
Don’t forget to mention that vouchers and the “business model” are based on profit. The private, business model will end up being less effective and more expensive – to educate ALL of Georgia’s children than is the present public model. “Kids for profit and teachers as commodities.” Bad idea.
At least, the public model for educating all of Georgia’s children is based on service, not on profit.
John Watson
May 16th, 2012
9:50 am
The “business community” in Atlanta (read the AEF and the Chamber) was complicit in the cover up.
All they cared about was Atlanta’s brand and protecting property values, at any cost.
Sad.
Ed Johnson
May 16th, 2012
10:01 am
@Attentive Parent, so what is the “defined meaning” of quality assurance in education that’s different in the business world? Please do tell.
When a person once said “TQM” in Deming’s presence, Deming retorted, “And what it that?” I suggest that person learned the lesson and never again referred to Deming’s work as “TQM.”
Jack
May 16th, 2012
10:20 am
No child left behind wasn’t a bad idea: Very noble, in fact. But folks like Hall and her cohorts took advantage of it and used it for their own aggrandizement.
mathmom
May 16th, 2012
10:32 am
“The fact that we’ve greatly enhanced a focus on poor and minority kids and we’re telling the truth about the state of affairs in our schools, which is sadly and woefully inadequate.”
What is woefully inadequate? The truth? The state of affairs? What?
NCLB is sort of like putting the short fat kid at the front of the kindergarten line on a field trip – this placement slows everyone down. NCLB is a splendid way to keep the electorate too ignorant to question governmental actions – and it is quite clear from most reports that the schools, despite their best intentions, have been successful in that effort.
cris
May 16th, 2012
12:58 pm
@Mary Elizabeth….I appreciate your posts more than you can know, I just wish everyone who has an opinion about education (legislators, business leaders, etc.) would read your posts as well.
vince
May 16th, 2012
1:13 pm
@mathmom
I like your post, but NCLB was like putting the overweight kid in a wheelchair at the front of the line and telling the teacher, “You must get him to walk like everyone else by the end of the year.” NCLB was like telling the principal at the school where that kid attends, “You must get him to walk like everyone else in 8 months or we will shame your community and you will lose your job.
Attentive Parent
May 16th, 2012
2:12 pm
Ed-I am going to write a story about the Quality Reviews Cambridge Education did for Fulton County. There are certain troubling commonalities to all Cambridge reviews here and abroad. I will incorporate the QA explanation there and then link it in the next relevant Get Schooled story.
Probably next week. I am laying out foundations first before I get specific.
No, Deming never liked what Spady did to his concepts. It was useful idea laundering though.
catlady
May 16th, 2012
2:23 pm
What’s best–You are right. You hit the nail on the head much better than I!
Mary Elizabeth
May 16th, 2012
7:14 pm
@cris. 12:58 pm
“@Mary Elizabeth….I appreciate your posts more than you can know, I just wish everyone who has an opinion about education (legislators, business leaders, etc.) would read your posts as well.”
====================================================
Thank you for taking the time to express such rewarding words to me, cris. I sincerely appreciate what you have expressed. I have had more “hits” this week on my personal blog than I have had in some time, so perhaps some are taking notice. I do hope so. I love our nation. I love what our Founding Fathers envisioned for our nation, and I am committed to public education because it is service-oriented, not profit-oriented. There are answers to improving public education without dismantling it for private education in order to educate all of our young. Thank you, again.
Truth in Moderation
May 17th, 2012
7:56 am
“Don’t forget to mention that vouchers and the “business model” are based on profit. The private, business model will end up being less effective and more expensive – to educate ALL of Georgia’s children than is the present public model. “Kids for profit and teachers as commodities.” Bad idea.
At least, the public model for educating all of Georgia’s children is based on service, not on profit.”
What you fail to mention, is that the government school monopoly IS run by big business through their foundations such as Carnegie and Rockefeller. They coop taxpayers’ money to indoctrinate students to become the worker bees for their industrial complex. The original evidence of this has been posted here many times. I guess you haven’t bothered to educate yourself and continue to propagate their propaganda.
http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/
http://tobefree.wordpress.com/2009/05/25/the-hidden-agenda-of-tax-exempt-foundations/
Norman Dodd, chief investigator in 1953 for U.S. Congressman B. Carroll Reece Special Committee on Tax Exempt Foundations, tells the truth.
Anonmom
May 17th, 2012
8:57 am
At least with vouchers and charter schools, the money goes down to the bottom rung of the ladder and gets broken into lots of tiny pieces to then work its way back up — rather than the current situation where billions and trillions of dollars come in at the top for siphoning off to “friends and family” and various programs (acknowledged to be cynical) — much less opportunity for siphoning when small dollars are in the hands of 100,000s of parents. Further, parents then get to port the money from year to year if they don’t like the services received. It’s worked beautifully in France. Can’t be any worse than what we currently have. If it gets to be as bad 10 years from now (again, we’re really, really bad right now ….) we can always try something else.
Truth in Moderation
May 17th, 2012
10:03 am
According to Newsmax. com,
“Obama’s education secretary, Arne Duncan, said Monday that he backed gay marriage as well.”
I’m still WAITING for a Get Schooled blog on this BOMBSHELL announcement!
PARTY LIKE IT’S 1926!
Related facts:
[2] The Atlantic Monthly; July 1926; The Russian Effort to Abolish Marriage; Volume 138, No. 1; page 108-114. You can read the document in its entirety by clicking here.
Here’s how the scheme to destroy the family is mapped out:
Eliminate the sacredness of the marriage covenant from the minds of the masses. Make them believe marriage is outdated and blasé
Inspire hatred against the family unit, manhood and fatherhood
Institute no-fault divorce and encourage serial divorces
Incite rampant promiscuity, fornication and adultery
Make having illegitimate children become a common practice
Convince society that a child in the womb is not a human being
Provoke women to have abortions without regard to God or their consciences
Make true love seem like cheap amusement
Stimulate the people to confuse sex with love
Create an environment that encourages unwed single motherhood
Inspire men to disrespect, dishonour and abuse women
Design laws that motivate women to commit paternity fraud
Incite homosexuality, lesbianism, sexual immorality and perversion
Influence men to effortlessly abandon children they sire
Most importantly, provoke a fierce relentless gender war
http://theinfounderground.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=12989
Truth in Moderation
May 17th, 2012
10:24 am
Bye-bye Miss American Pie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS91gT3XT_A
Truth in Moderation
May 17th, 2012
10:41 am
For some reason, The AJC finds it necessary to “moderate” the fact that a square peg cannot fit into a square peg, nor a round hole into a round hole.
And you call this blog “Get EDUCATED?”