Should every Georgia high school student take an online course? Why?
Update: This afternoon the House Education Committee passed the online learning bill with the mandate removed.
Now, the bill urges school systems to maximize digital learning rather than mandating that students take at least one online course to graduate.
In presenting his bill, state Sen. Chip Rogers said the legislation was needed to prepare students to work digitally and ready them for “a future outside the classroom. Society is moving in that direction at a rapid rate.”
A second reason to push systems to embrace greater online learning, said Rogers, is that students won’t know if they learn better digitally if they lack the option.
Now, this was the original post this morning:
Senate Bill 289 sponsored by state Sen. Chip Rogers, R-Woodstock, would mandate that all Georgia high school students complete at least one online course starting in 2014.
The problem with the bill is that there’s no reliable body of research documenting the effectiveness of online learning in k-12. This bill seems premature given that lack of evidence.
The bill states: Beginning with students entering ninth grade in the 2014-2015 school year, each student shall complete prior to graduation at least one course containing online learning. This requirement shall be met through an online course offered by the Georgia Virtual School established pursuant to Code Section 20-2-319.1, through an online dual enrollment course offered by a postsecondary institution, or through a provider approved pursuant to subsection (c) of Code Section 20-2-319.3.
The bill will be discussed today at 1 p.m. at the House Education Sub-Committee on Academic Support in Room 506 in the CLOB.
In its own meta analysis of all the research on the issue, the U. S. Department of Education warned that there was a “small number of rigorous published studies contrasting online and face-to-face learning conditions for k–12 students. In light of this small corpus, caution is required in generalizing to the k–12 population because the results are derived for the most part from studies in other settings (e.g., medical training, higher education).”
More promising than online learning is blended instruction, which combines traditional face-to-face classroom teaching with some computer-based activities. Many schools in Georgia are already doing this.
The U.S. DOE concluded:
In recent experimental and quasi-experimental studies contrasting blends of online and face-to-face instruction with conventional face-to-face classes, blended instruction has been more effective, providing a rationale for the effort required to design and implement blended approaches. When used by itself, online learning appears to be as effective as conventional classroom instruction, but not more so.
However, several caveats are in order: Despite what appears to be strong support for blended learning applications, the studies in this meta-analysis do not demonstrate that online learning is superior as a medium. In many of the studies showing an advantage for blended learning, the online and classroom conditions differed in terms of time spent, curriculum and pedagogy. It was the combination of elements in the treatment conditions (which was likely to have included additional learning time and materials as well as additional opportunities for collaboration) that produced the observed learning advantages. At the same time, one should note that online learning is much more conducive to the expansion of learning time than is face-to-face instruction.
Finally, the great majority of estimated effect sizes in the meta-analysis are for undergraduate and older students, not elementary or secondary learners. Although this meta-analysis did not find a significant effect by learner type, when learners’ age groups are considered separately, the mean effect size is significantly positive for undergraduate and other older learners but not for K–12 students. Without new random assignment or controlled quasi-experimental studies of the effects of online learning options for K–12 students, policy-makers will lack scientific evidence of the effectiveness of these emerging alternatives to face-to-face instruction.
I often ask education experts about virtual/distance learning in the k-12 arena and routinely hear the same answer: We don’t know enough yet. In a conference call last week on improving high school rigor, I asked Patte Barth, director of the Center for Public Education, whether it makes sense to mandate online courses as a condition of high school graduation.
“I have been looking into it and one big finding is that we don’t really have a lot data on the effectiveness,” she said. “The ability to work online is a 21st century skill, so I think there is an argument for making online courses a condition of graduation. But we are also dealing with adolescents who are learning how to work independently. It is something they are only developing. When you send kids out to the cyber sea without a lifeguard, I am a little skeptical of what kind of results you can expect. There are some models for what they call blended learning. To me, that seems to make sense.”
The issue also came up during Education Week’s recent Quality Counts panel. Asked about the role of computer learning, Emiliana Vegas, a senior economist in the education research hub of the World Bank, said World Bank had been evaluating the evidence on computer learning.
“It is very thin and mixed,” Vegas said. “Our conclusion is that it is inevitable that schools will use more computer-learning and they probably should because the world is changing in that direction. It is another tool that teachers have at their disposal. But it is not a substitute. It is not solution in itself.”
The research shows high failure and dropout rates in distance learning. Here is an excerpt from a study by University of Tennessee researchers M.D. Roblyer and Lloyd Davis:
Despite anticipated and real benefits of virtual schooling, it is not unusual for virtual schools to report a dropout rate of from 40-70% (Oblender, 2002; State of Colorado, 2006), though some established schools claim a dropout rate from 10-20%. In the case of one program, it was found that virtual students were forced to repeat grades at a rate four times that of students statewide (Rouse, 2005). Some virtual school programs have addressed high dropout and failure rates through front-end means such selecting and admitting students on the basis of identified criteria, instituting required pre-course orientations, and increasing the length of the drop-add period to 28 or more days. Some schools have also increased levels of students monitoring and facilitation. Virtual schools report no data on the success of the latter strategies, but informal reports indicated they have met with at least some success (Pape, Revenaugh, Watson, & Wicks, 2006).
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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129 comments Add your comment
Brandy
March 14th, 2012
4:18 am
@Maureen, Is there any way to get official data on how many Georgia students are currently using the Georgia Virtual School program and the budget for the program? I’d also love to see how the current program accommodates for students with special needs.
I’m wondering if this is some attempt to increase usage of the program or to justify the expense?
Should every Georgia high school student take an online course? Why? – Atlanta Journal Constitution (blog) - virtual-school
March 14th, 2012
5:38 am
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Chaos
March 14th, 2012
5:44 am
This is an absolutely horrible idea. While there are certainly some advantages of online instruction if certain courses can’t be offered in a traditional format by a school system (i.e. physics), requiring all students to take an online course is utterly ridiculous. The next thing you’ll hear is that Chip Rogers has an online charter school business in the works.
God Bless the Teacher!
March 14th, 2012
6:00 am
Let’s see…require online course…more computers needed…buy more PCs…PCs run on Windows…Bill Gates makes more money. Enough said.
God Bless the Teacher!
March 14th, 2012
6:05 am
Part two…require online course…design courses based on Khan Academy offerings…Khan Academy has BIG backing by Bill Gates…OOPS! There he is again.
Kahn Academy is actually a wonderful resource for students. However, I’m not yet sold on it becoming a replacement content delivery system as is being piloted in California.
God Bless the Teacher!
March 14th, 2012
6:12 am
Seriously. Online courses are a great option for students who posses the intrinsic motivation to complete such courses, particularly if a course being taken is not readily available at a student’s school. Since many colleges offer online or blended (online and face time) courses as part of a student’s major’s curriculum, it makes sense that college bound students (I’m also including technical school bound students here) take such a course in a safe and supportive learning environment such as high school to get a feel for what such a course will be like in the future. However, the legislation will result in local districts being required to provide space, computers, computer lab facilitators, and other funding for such a requirement to be met. How will that be possible if cuts continue to be made to education budgets? Nothing like another unfunded mandate.
ScienceTeacher671
March 14th, 2012
6:13 am
Ditto Brandy’s questions, and also, is there any information about “success rates” for GVS, both in grades and EOCT scores?
I’d particularly like to see a comparison of grades and EOCT scores. In the local Ombudsman program, which is all online, students frequently make A’s and B’s in the coursework while scoring in the 50s on their EOCTs (and remember that EOCTs are heavily curved!) The kids say you just re-answer and re-answer the questions until you get the correct answer, no actual learning required.
redweather
March 14th, 2012
6:17 am
Although this is only anecdotal evidence, with very few exceptions my students (college) describe the online courses they have taken at the school where I teach as either a “joke” or “totally worthless.” We ofter courses that are fully online as well as what we call hybrids, which meet one day a week face-to-face and then the remainder of the instruction and learning is online. These courses are pushed by claiming that this is the only way some students “can gain access” to a college education. What I have noticed, however, is that many students who are weak in a particular subject area (foreign language students, for example, who must take a number of English courses in their first and second years of college) take those courses online. I am suspicious, to say the least, especially when some of them end up in one of my face-to-face classes and can’t compose a grammatical sentence, or at least not one in English. It is difficult to know who is actually doing the work in an online setting.
yes i am worried
March 14th, 2012
6:31 am
Could someone please tell me why Woodstock continues to elect Chip Rogers? Any chance of a viable opponent?
There are places in GA where there is such poverty there are very few computers in homes and hardly in the school. There is no incentive for internet companies to provide much more then basic service.
Chip Rogers just meddles. And meddles. And meddles. It is a shame for the children of GA.
Reality
March 14th, 2012
6:39 am
Hmmm…. Normally Chip Rogers is all about parent choice and “innovative” charter schools that provide individual instruction, and now he wants to force virtual learning on every student, regardless of how the student learns best or if it is what parents choose? I suspect campaign donations from tech companies and/or for-profit virtual schools are in the mix here somewhere. And as all students do not have access to technology at home, the schools will likely have to offer the computers and the bandwidth. How much money does the state give school districts for technology? Oh, that’s right- zero.
Two Cents
March 14th, 2012
6:54 am
Who has to pay for this? Most parents have no extra money and are struggling to survive.
teacher&mom
March 14th, 2012
6:58 am
It’s all about money and the future of education. For the past year or so, I have been told the following by more than one person involved in curriculum and instruction:
“The high school of the future will fit into a single room filled with computers. Students will come and go as they take online classes. High School as you know it is a thing of the past and the future is much smaller buildings, more technology, and streamlined instruction. It will save the states billions while preparing students for the 21st century.”
IMHO, that is a scary scenario and exactly what came to my mind when I first read SB 289.
We have several students who use GA Virtual. A few really enjoy the courses but most of them eventually dislike the online instruction. They miss the face-to-face interaction that take place in a class. Human interaction is actually a powerful learning tool. How many people enjoy working in a cubicle with only a computer? Relatively few.
catlady
March 14th, 2012
7:02 am
Who does Chip know that would profit financially by this?
Outrageous and Ridiculous
March 14th, 2012
7:08 am
This is an outrageous and ridiculous notion to make students take one course online. Today’s students are struggling to learn in our 48 out of 50 bottom of the barrel schools and now we want to force them to learn on their own? Online learning is for adults who work and can’t otherwise attend school full time.
All human beings learn best from a human being and doing hands on work. Online learning removes the human being. I’ve taken online courses and they are inferior. We need to teach children to use computers in high school so they can learn to research items but if we put a kid in front of a computer for an “online” class the work won’t get done and learning won’t happen.
This notion is merely meant to reduce costs of education by reducing the number of human teachers needed to teach. We should reduce expense by reducing the overhead in the central office — just another reason to open more charter schools.
GM
abacus2
March 14th, 2012
7:22 am
Since when has lack of data stopped our legislature? Georgia education functions on a “whim and a prayer.”
Gail
March 14th, 2012
7:24 am
Please don’t let this pass! Online learning is right for some students. Not all. And if there is cheating in a regular classroom, online classes will make it easier to cheat. Not sure what he is trying to achieve. It could probably be accomplished with the “blended learning.”
teacher for life
March 14th, 2012
7:25 am
The republicans have run out of ideas on how to improve Georgia. The economy, schools, infrastructure, and transportation have all suffered in the years since the repubs took control.
redweather
March 14th, 2012
7:27 am
An earlier post I submitted must be stuck in the filter.
The anecdotal evidence I have received from my students is that online courses are often a “joke” or “totally worthless.” To be sure, they have negative things to say about face-to-face courses, although their complaints typically concern how much work the professor made them do, how difficult the exams were, and how boring they found the lectures.
Ernest
March 14th, 2012
7:28 am
While I’m glad that online education is an option for some students, I question mandating it at this time as a requirement for graduatuation. More information is needed (research value, costs, access, etc.) before mandating this through law.
Mary Elizabeth
March 14th, 2012
7:29 am
@catlady, 7:02
Whenever Sen. Chip Rogers sponsors educational legislation (or influences someone else who does), the public should check out ALEC’s website. Sen. Rogers sits on the National Board of ALEC, as well as being one of Georgia’s state representatives to ALEC (along with Rep. Calvin Hill).
I did just that. This is what I found:
——————————————————————————————-
“Education in this country is big business. By 2015, revenues for the online learning industry are expected to grow to $24.4 billion. That is why online for-profit schools are looking for ways tomake it easier to pay for their education. This legislation would do that by creating educational accounts for employees and employers. The for-profit education industry would stand to benefitfrom this legislation because it is designed to help them attract more customers. In fact, an onlinefor-profit school company was the corporate co-chair of ALEC’s Education Task Force in 2011.”(page 22 from the below link.)
http://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/78448237?access_key=key-a6hdjq8v38luteku97w
And from the first page of the above link, page 22, read below:
——————————————————————————–
“Led by some of the largest corporations in America, ALEC has quietly brought together legislators and corporate lobbyists to draft legislation behind closed doors. Much of thislegislation is designed to benefit directly the bottom lines of corporations that are members of ALEC—corporations like Coca-Cola, Koch Industries, United States Smokeless TobaccoCompany and Comcast.ALEC exists specifically so that lobbyists and corporations can influence state legislative policies away from public view. At its meetings, held in some of the most exclusive resorts and hotels to ensure secrecy, corporate lobbyists share their wish lists of legislative proposals to be introduced at state capitols around the country. Legislators take this cookie-cutter legislation,make some changes to it, then introduce it in their own states, often without understanding thefull impact of what they are proposing. With help from corporate political contributions,lobbyists then help move the legislation forward.We all like to think that our state laws are created when a constituent raises an issue with alegislator, who then drafts legislation to fix that problem. Increasingly however, that’s not the case and corporate lobbyists, not our legislators, are drafting Minnesota’s laws.”
===================================================
AGAIN A NOTE TO THE AJC INVESTIGATIVE STAFF: When are you going to do an investigative report on ALEC and how it is heavily influencing Georgia’s educational legislation, i.e. Charter Schools, School Vouchers, On-line Courses Mandated, School Choice Week.
Traditional public schools are in danger of being dismantled. Now is the time for serious investigation.
Where is the investigative press?
============================================================
“This is fundamentally about fighting for democracy in the schools.”
(From my 4:43 pm post on yesterday’s thread. Reference source given there.)
Mary Elizabeth
March 14th, 2012
7:39 am
CORRECTION:
Incorrectly stated: “And from the first page of the above link, page 22, read below:”
Corrected: “And from the above link, page 2, read below.”
My apologies.
MikeyD
March 14th, 2012
7:46 am
@Mary Elizabeth
Excellent question regarding the investigative journalists at the AJC looking into all of this. Unfortunately, the AJC seems to have very lazy investigators. If the story doesn’t have something to do with test cheats or inappropriate contact between teachers and students, the “investigators” at the AJC seemingly want little to do with it.
sloboffthestreet
March 14th, 2012
7:59 am
Perhaps Mr. Rogers might consider getting back to basics. It would appear that top heavy tech parents aren’t interested in such nonsense for their children’s education.
http://www.good.is/post/why-are-silicon-valley-executives-sending-their-kids-to-a-tech-free-school/
Mary Elizabeth
March 14th, 2012
8:11 am
MikeyD, 7:46
It may be that ALEC is simply too politicially volatile to take on uncovering it. Better to leave it uncovered? I hope that is not the thinking at the AJC. It certainly wasn’t the thinking of the Washinton Post under Katharine Graham in the 1970s.
One of ALEC’s top fund supporters, if not its top one, is Koch Industries. The Koch Brothers have been stealthily fighting for their Libertarian worldview in America for decades, which would minimize governing for the “common good” through the public sector toward governing through the corporate agenda of the private sector. This issue is one that has the potential of dismantling public education for our youth. And it has the potential for undermining the very foundation of our democracy, as built through public education, as envisioned by Thomas Jefferson. This public/private issue and the influence of ALEC’s agenda, as it is played out in Georgia’s Legislature, needs investigative reporting, desperately. And I do not use that adverb lightly.
world we live in, in cobb
March 14th, 2012
8:22 am
@catlady – that’s the first thing that popped into my mind– How much money will Rogers make off of the passage of this legislation??????
As the mom of a student who this would effect – NO!!! My child does very well with the traditonal form of learning in a classroom and is in no need of an online course. If others need or want to participate – fine – but don’t legislate that my child HAS to participate BY LAW!! STUPID!!!!!!
GNGS
March 14th, 2012
8:25 am
We live in GA, a Republican-dominated state. Yet, mandates, unfunded mandates, keep coming from state government.
Shar
March 14th, 2012
8:34 am
I just checked Chip Rogers’ website to see what his bona fides are in education. It appears that “Friend of Education” in Cobb County is the highlight.
Does he in fact have training or experience in education policy? He is not on the education committee, nor does he appear to have a relevant degree.
Given his apparent lack of applicable expertise, it is hard to imagine that his interference in education policy is anything other than paid meddling on behalf of ALEC.
justjanny
March 14th, 2012
8:48 am
OK. Y’all need to know that Chip Rogers’ brother, Joh Rogers, works at the Department of Education. Was a deal struck with John Barge to get him there? BTW, no one seems to know what JR does other than occupy an office and draw a check. Chip Rogers needs to get an education degree or stop trying to micromanage education in Georgia. What a hypocrite!
Miss Management
March 14th, 2012
8:49 am
I believe this is yet another way to disenfranchise poor minority students. Learning is learning. It should not matter HOW you access information, just that you do – and that you understand it. So many students do not have access to computers or the internet. Insisting that they take courses that way is unfair.
justjanny
March 14th, 2012
8:54 am
Oh, stupid me! Chip Rogers just wants to keep his name out there for future political gains. I finally get it – name recognition! Are Georgians so stupid that they don’t get it?
Tony
March 14th, 2012
8:55 am
Follow the money! This bill is simply another chapter in the book about how to rewrite education policy so that the profit-based corporations can take over public education. If you examine on-line learning from a national perspective, you will see a couple of really big, for-profit companies dominate the field. If you dig further, you will find there are many kids who enroll in a course of study through the on-line program. The company collects their check for services to that student. Then the student drops out of the course(s) before completion. This occurs at an extremely high rate – much higher than drop-out rates in traditional schools. BUT the company still gets paid for the services they provided for that student. In addition, this method of operation does, in fact, take money away from the local schools through the FTE processes. This is definitely a program that is viewed as a cash cow!
Tony
March 14th, 2012
8:55 am
I should add that I am not opposed to the use of on-line learning, but it should remain an option and not become a requirement.
Yankee Prof
March 14th, 2012
8:59 am
There is some merit in exposing high school students to online learning before they enter college, though simply legislating it as a requirement is probably shortsighted at the present.
I can say, as a college educator, I see significant challenges with online learning, including both statistically higher academic dishonesty issues and, oddly enough, higher attrition issues. Of the latter, online skills courses like English Composition at my institution have double the withdrawal/failure rate as do on-site courses. Much of the reason behind those numbers, I suspect, is a lack of academic preparation and self-motivation necessary to succeed in an online course. Yet, when one surveys student attitudes, they oftentimes believe that an online course will be easier than its on-site version.
So, again, some early exposure is a good idea since opportunities for online learning will certainly increase at the post-secondary level.
First Cheating Lying Teacher might be fired today
March 14th, 2012
9:05 am
Here’s the story from the AJC. The teacher used a razor blade to cut into the test booklets and make copies for other teachers: “He is the first teacher named in a groundbreaking special investigation into test cheating, and today Damany Lewis could become the first Atlanta teacher to be fired for his role in the scandal.
Enlarge photo Vino Wong vwong@ajc.com…… Teachers accused of cheating will go will go before a tribunal. Here, attorney Theodore Frankel, who represents three teachers, is shown on Feb. 23.
.Lewis, a Parks Middle teacher, is the first of several educators scheduled to go before a tribunal to contest his termination. He admitted to cheating four years in a row and confessed to state investigators that he used a razor blade to cut into test booklets and make copies for other teachers.
Today’s hearing will be Lewis’ chance to tell his side of the story. But he’ll be up against a school system armed with state evidence and eager to rehabilitate its reputation by getting guilty teachers off the payroll.
Atlanta Public Schools is paying $1 million a month to educators accused of cheating who are on administrative leave. Superintendent Erroll Davis made a promise that those who cheated would not be allowed in front of children again. But keeping that promise has proved to be a challenge — educators have job protection rights, which means firing them is a long and costly process.
Almost nine months after the 400-plus page investigative report was released, none of the approximately 180 educators accused of cheating has been fired. About 70 have resigned or retired at the urging of the district.
Bo Spalding, co-founder of the public relations firm Jackson Spalding and an expert in crisis management, said these hearings will be APS’ chance to make a statement — to the public and other employees — about the lack of tolerance for cheating.
“What these school officials are doing is very important to how the school system is going to be perceived,” he said. “People want to see justice being done. People want to know the Atlanta school system is doing the right and responsible thing, and that’s holding people accountable.”
Most of the accused educators have refused to speak out publicly. Lewis did not return calls for comment. But teacher groups and attorneys advocating for some of the educators named in the report, say they are concerned the educators will not get a fair hearing.
“These teachers may be sacrificed so the district can protect its image,” said Verdaillia Turner, president of the Atlanta Federation of Teachers, which is providing legal assistance to members named in the investigation.
The teachers will go before a tribunal “jury” pulled from a pool of around 30 people approved and paid for by the APS school board. Most are retired educators with experience in APS or neighboring school systems. An impartial hearing officer will serve in a “judge” role.
Hearings can last for a couple of days. Attorneys for APS will outline the grounds for firing, present evidence and call witnesses to testify. The accused will be given a chance to dispute the allegations. The tribunal has five days to make a ruling, which is then upheld or rejected by the school board.
A teacher can appeal a local school board’s decision to the state school board, then to Superior Court, the Court of Appeals and up to the state Supreme Court. So far, the district has taken formal steps to fire 11 educators; three have chosen to resign rather than go through with hearings, which are scheduled through March 30.
Turner said attorneys for some teachers have not been given access by APS to records, tapes and witnesses needed to mount a solid defense. They also have concerns about how impartial the jury will be, especially given the attention the case has received.
“The court of public opinion has been turned against these teachers,” she said. “The public has no idea of the full story or the environment in these schools.”
We are paying these lying and thieving teachers A MILLION DOLLARS a MONTH on the school payroll — every honest teacher should be outraged at these lying thieves. IF we had a million a month we could give raises to teachers who deserve them.
GM
Rick in Grayson
March 14th, 2012
9:17 am
For many students (especially those with attention-deficit problems), online courses are the way to go. I have been using Khan’s Academy to brush up on some old skills and learn some new skills for the pusuit of a Master’s in Statistics degree.
Khan’s has 5 to 15 minutes videos that can be re-watched if needed. Each video has a collection of user comments that are of help for people who did not understand everything.
Students are sometimes “tired” for whatever reason and online courses allow them to watch when they are most attentive.
These videos are there to re-watch 5 years from now! Something that your local HS can not provide.
I would like to see a HS where everything is online and teachers are available by phone/video-conferencing to help with any individual roadblocks as they happen.
Ron F.
March 14th, 2012
9:18 am
I work with a group of seniors using online courses and credit recovery programs to catch up missing credits. Very few are able to work entirely on their own. They all need guidance or specific help during the week. For highly motivated, successful students, online courses could be used to accelerate their graduation, and that should be offered. However, that’s typically a small percentage of students, most of whom are already taking AP, IB, Honors courses. For most kids, one course could be managed, but academic courses would require at least some teacher interaction. I don’t support this as a requirement for graduation but I think it would be good to offer for those who can and want to take the courses to either catch up or earn credits toward graduation faster, or those who want to do dual enrollment with colleges.
Rick in Grayson
March 14th, 2012
9:24 am
For those wanting online “math” education, Khan’s Academy and the online GeoGebra tool can be used to provide math/statistics/chemistry/physics/finance education.
Check out Khan’s Academy and GeoGebra(pre-algebra through calculus tools)!
Ron F.
March 14th, 2012
9:27 am
“We are paying these lying and thieving teachers A MILLION DOLLARS a MONTH on the school payroll — every honest teacher should be outraged at these lying thieves.”
GM- so much for innocent until proven guilty I guess. What you have to understand is that some of the accused may not have cheated, and since they could face potential criminal charges, they should fight. I agree that those who admitted to it should have been fired post haste. The right to a fair dismissal hearing, while unpleasant sounding, is the only way the potentially innocent have to keep themselves from being fired and/or prosecuted without clear evidence. Trust me, the system picks the panel and has quite an advantage in determining what is “fair.” Considering the politics and passing of blame I’m sure is part of this, I think it would be smart to make the system prove the charges. If these teachers take the fall, what will prevent those higher up who, at the very least, overlooked the cheating from keeping their high-paying jobs and doing worse in the future? I guarantee you the ones really behind this didn’t leave a trail, and each of their salaries is likely twice as much as any teacher, if not more.
Rural Eduation
March 14th, 2012
9:35 am
On-line courses are just another way to eliminate teachers and rid this state of public education. That is the goal of Chip and the others who make the decisions but have no children in the public education system. They get away with it because Ga. is a one party state and many are too lazy to make thier own choices. When you have clowns like Boortz spending all day talking about the “socialist” govt. schools, truth stand little chance of seeing the light of day.
KMHSmom
March 14th, 2012
9:37 am
The legislature needs to stay out of micromanagement of the schools. Really? Every student? This has got to be financially motivated.
My son took AP Comp Sci through GA Virtual School last semester. This is a subject he is extremely interested in, he was very motivated, and he made an A. BUT he said he hated the online experience and did not want to do it again. If he said that about a course he loved, I can’t imagine that the experience would be successful for 100% of students. This bill needs to DIE.
Mary Elizabeth
March 14th, 2012
9:41 am
From Rural Education, 9:35 am
“. . .truth stand little chance of seeing the light of day.”
===========================================
We try.
Soccermom
March 14th, 2012
9:42 am
Apparently, our legislator-in-question is completely out of touch with reality in regards to many students in the lower socio-economic brackets. He doesn’t comprehend the fact that many of them either don’t have a computer at home or don’t have internet access on a computer or both. For those who argue that these students can go to the local public library, you need to remember all of the cuts in resources and hours of operations sustained by our libraries in effort to balance budgets. And, if the students are going to take the class in the school computer lab or library, why have this absurd requirement in the first place?!
As someone who has tutored a student through online credit recovery math classes and who as a non-classroom teacher has actually seen some of the online class offerings, I am not impressed by those classes. The explanations can be kind of sketchy. There is no opportunity for interaction with a teacher. And I found some errors in the instruction. That there would be errors in an online instruction course is simply pathetic.
Harriet
March 14th, 2012
10:05 am
The idea of giving GA students experience with online learning is a sound one. Perhaps the bill isn’t clear to some, but almost all post-secondary institutions are offering online courses, and Georgia students need the experience so that navigating an online class is not a steep learning curve! In high school, online learning can take many forms! Blending face-to-face learning with the online component is an excellent choice and potentially one of the most exciting uses of technology on the current scene. Georgia Virtual School, a state program offering college prep classes to all students in Georgia is also piloting blended learning right now. Let’s embrace the future and work together to make it a leg-up for Georgia students!
Fred
March 14th, 2012
10:06 am
Well said comment to GM, Ron F. It seems some people want to throw out the Constitution when all we have now are allegations. Let’s allow due process to move forward and handle each situation based on the evidence and merits.
Really amazed
March 14th, 2012
10:16 am
I have thought for a longgggg time now about this. I get exactly what the gov’t is trying to do, not that I agree with it though. Think about it, giving every child in the school district a personal computer, going to school one a week for face to face instruction, rest of the time @home doing cyber school. Since the gov’t claims to pay approx. $8,000 to $9,000 currently to educate each student, paying $500 to $1000 for a computer for every student would be a drastic cut. Then they would only have to pay an instructor for one to two days a week face-to-face time. I believe this is the way of the future. This is just about what every company does for continue ed etc. I also believe this is the only way to cut the cost of college tuition in the very near future. This is also the way some of the homeschool programs operate. Everyone is always complaining about the public school system. I think it is about to be completely overhauled and not necessarily for the better. I do believe something has to give though! I see this as a test for future generation education. Start with one class and another than another etc. On-line learning is what it will ALL come down to.
teacher&mom
March 14th, 2012
10:17 am
“AGAIN A NOTE TO THE AJC INVESTIGATIVE STAFF: When are you going to do an investigative report on ALEC and how it is heavily influencing Georgia’s educational legislation, i.e. Charter Schools, School Vouchers, On-line Courses Mandated, School Choice Week.”
Great question. Any comments from the AJC staff regarding Mary Elizabeth’s question?
Maureen Downey
March 14th, 2012
10:20 am
@teacher&mom, The AJC education investigative team has been working on a yearlong project that is close to publication. I will pass these notes to the editors who head the projects reporters.
Maureen
Really amazed
March 14th, 2012
10:20 am
@Rural education, you have it nailed!!
teacher&mom
March 14th, 2012
10:24 am
@Maureen – I look forward to reading their project. Thank you for the feedback.
Reinvent_ED
March 14th, 2012
10:37 am
@Maureen, you are again completely wrong on this one. We are in the age of “connectivity,” and it’s time you and your readers face the reality that the way we teach our kids has got to change, and change now. Teachers need to be given more flexibility to teach and ignite the passion in every child. Online learning has the potential to bring the best teachers and/or lectures in the world to a student’s desktop.
I strongly suggest you have your readers read my friend/colleague Seth Godin’s manifesto, “Stop Stealing Dreams.” It makes all the sense in the world.
True innovations, and I might disruptive innovations, do not usually come out of the gate with groundbreaking research that you desire. But you know what? Over time, they will do exactly that. It’s time to acknowledge that our students have to be taught like the digital natives they are, and not like the digital immigrants of the previous generations.
@RenPrep
March 14th, 2012
10:38 am
Hmmm…this smells like a cost saving measure to me.
Online is a great supplement and can be incredibly beneficial to the autodidacts among our student population…but most students really need a person who is an expert in their content to facilitate their learning.
Forcing students to take an online course seems like a bit much. Offer the option. But making it mandatory ? I can’t get behind that.
Reinvent_ED
March 14th, 2012
10:41 am
Oh, by the way. Teachers, don’t feel threatened by this legislation. If you watched the 60 Minutes segment Sunday night with Sal Khan and his Khan Academy, you will see that he is reiterating what i said in my TED Talk 3 years ago: that teachers need to become mentors. Students become empowered, and, ultimately, students learn. Watch the episode online and you’ll see how energized the teachers are. They are not threatened. This is “blended learning” at its best.
Hillbilly D
March 14th, 2012
10:44 am
Should online courses be available? Sure, as long as it’s economically feasible. Should they be required for everybody? Of course not.
Mary Elizabeth
March 14th, 2012
10:45 am
@teacher&mom, 10:17 am
” ‘AGAIN A NOTE TO THE AJC INVESTIGATIVE STAFF: When are you going to do an investigative report on ALEC and how it is heavily influencing Georgia’s educational legislation, i.e. Charter Schools, School Vouchers, On-line Courses Mandated, School Choice Week.’
Great question. ‘Any comments from the AJC staff regarding Mary Elizabeth’s question?’ ”
—————————————————————————–
AND
@Maureen Downey, 10:20 am
“@teacher&mom, The AJC education investigative team has been working on a yearlong project that is close to publication. I will pass these notes to the editors who head the projects reporters.
Maureen”
==========================================================
Thank you for your question to Ms. Downey, teacher&mom.
And, a thank you, also, to Ms. Downey for the revealing response. I was delighted to read it. I will look forward to reading the education investigative team’s yearlong project uncovering ALEC’s influence in Georgia’s educational legislation.
Becky Milton
March 14th, 2012
10:46 am
My question is: How will our children with disabilities be affected by this?
Maureen Downey
March 14th, 2012
10:49 am
@Becky, If you look at the full bill — the link is there in the first line — you will see that the bill does exempt students who cannot take online courses.
It states:
The State Board of Education shall be authorized to provide for exemptions 25 to the requirements of this Code section for students who are disabled and not able to participate in an online course.”
C Jae of EAV
March 14th, 2012
11:02 am
@God Bless The Teacher & @Catlady – It certainly sounds like this bill is a boondoggle waiting to happen.
@Mary Elizabeth – I’ve been saying public edu is a big biz for a while on this blog. The info you provided strengthens my point and clearly indicates the problem isn’t exclusive to charter school movement. Every sector of public education is subject to corruptive influence of private enterprise. As stakeholders, we need to be ever dilligent in holding our civic representatives on every level accountable for their stewardship of public funds.
teacher and parent
March 14th, 2012
11:07 am
As a mother of two and an experienced teacher, I am most pleased with the progressive movement of Senate Bill 289. The bill not only represents a forward movement in instruction, but also Georgia’s interest in presenting students of diverse educational backgrounds with an opportunity to participate in the benefits of online learning.
As noted on the Georgia Virtual School website, the scores on the End of Course exam continue to surpass those of the state, and this, as parent, is a wonderful example of the focused instruction offered in the online classroom. Students are encouraged to become independent thinkers and learners, and online learning is the fusion of focused instruction and the opportunity for students to gain more ownership of their individual learning processes , as well prepare students for online learning requirements at the university level.
I remain a proponent of Senate Bill 289, as well as a supporter of the virtual classroom and all on-line instructors. Well done, Georgia!
Becky Milton
March 14th, 2012
11:28 am
Thanks, Maureen!
Mary Elizabeth
March 14th, 2012
11:29 am
C Jae of EAV, 11:02 am
“@Mary Elizabeth –I’ve been saying public edu is a big biz for a while on this blog. The info you provided strengthens my point and clearly indicates the problem isn’t exclusive to charter school movement. Every sector of public education is subject to corruptive influence of private enterprise. As stakeholders, we need to be ever dilligent in holding our civic representatives on every level accountable for their stewardship of public funds.”
===============================================
I am in agreement with you regarding your statement, above, C Jae. And, I thank you for your input.
I hope that you have had a chance to read my post of 3/13/12 at 12:17 am (late Monday night) which was written to you, specifically, (on the March 8th thread, “Micromanaging from Atlanta. . .”) in response to a post you had written me. I took the time to illustrate, with several examples, how the growing movement toward charter schools, if not handled prudently and wisely, has the potential for even more misuse of public funds, for private gain, than do traditional public schools. We must be made aware of the many factors which are effecting educational choices, today, especially those factors which spring from private sector agendas for education within our state’s legislature.
Reinvent_ED
March 14th, 2012
11:30 am
@teacher and parent, amen!
Marilynn
March 14th, 2012
11:53 am
As a classroom teacher who is being asked to reach more and more students with less and less and a stalwart proponent for technology in the classroom. I applaud the forward looking, forward reaching focus of this bill. People, simply put this is the way to reach more and more students. Our students were born and raised on technology, then they go to school and we snatch it away, even ban it and expect them to be happy about it. Rather than that, shouldn’t we meet students where they are and show them how to use technology to further their educations.
Technology, and yes online classes, provide students with an opportunity to learn the way they like to learn. Differentiation based on learning style is so simple through online classes. I fear the idea of online classes invokes ideas of a teacherless classroom which is far from the truth. A good well organized program gives the teacher the time to deal with a student’s educational needs far more effectively than in a face to face classroom with dozens of students seeking the teacher’s attention. Properly designed, the online courses can provide even more student interaction through chats and online collaboration than in the regular classroom.
Online classes are also a natural extension of Dr. Barge’s push to have students college and career ready.Students headed to college can almost certainly can expect to take a class or two online. Professional development and training in the world of work also is provided extensively online. So should our students wait until they leave high school to have their online learning experience? I think not!
Since the bill and the article mention Georgia Virtual School specifically, I decided to check them out. Their statistics are pretty good. I teach Economics at a face to face school with excellent teachers and only a 65% EOCT pass rate. The introduction of technology enabled us to raise that pass rate to 75% in a trial this year. Georgia Virtual School on the other hand boasts a 90+%. No small feat there.
Further more, why shouldn’t every student in Georgia have the same access to all sorts of courses that those in in the wealthier school districts do? Should smaller districts deny the gifted student the right to take AP classes because it doesn’t fit in their budget. Should the student who longs to be a nurse have to wait until they are out of high school to take a course because their district cannot afford a health occupations teacher? Online education is the answer to so many needs that our students have and it should not be dismissed out of hand. So, for the gifted student who needs the stimulation of an advanced class, for the special needs student who needs a different approach to content, process, or product, or for the student who just has passion and a dream, we should say a resounding YES! to online classes for all Georgia students.
Mary Elizabeth
March 14th, 2012
11:59 am
The problem with SB 289 is that its content is mandated for every student. Online education has its place in overall public education, as do charter schools. But to mandate a course of online instruction for every student, regardless of his or her unique academic needs, should raise some questions as to why online instruction is being mandated, instead of simply being encouraged? In that case, educators could handle encouraging it, especially through guidelines from Georgia’s Department of Education. There would be no need for legislators sponsoring a mandated online course bill. Why is SB 289 being pursued as legislation now?
Ivan Cohen
March 14th, 2012
12:01 pm
I have to wonder if state senator Chip Rogers R-Woodstock has factored in the digital divide. There will not be enough hours in the day to take online courses at school. So for those who have no computers at home, one of the options will be the public libraries in the event community centers and churches aren’t available. You only get a finite amount of time to do anything on a library computer before it is someone else’s turn. It might behoove the student to have flash drives to save course work and to afford him or her the opportunity to take up where they left off when they get to a computer or they will have to start over again.
3schoolkids
March 14th, 2012
12:04 pm
My college daughter has enjoyed her hybrid math class this semester. However, if they are going to require it of all high school students they need to make delivery (GAVS) better. One of my children has taken 2 classes through GAVS, an AP Lang and Math III. The AP Lang was great, Math III not so much. The Math is not a good option for a student who needs extra support in Math (unless you take Math support with it). Math quizzes and tests are timed and don’t provide the opportunity to go back and work on a problem you need more time with (not like a paper test that you can look over, work the easiest problems first then delve into the more difficult ones). It is not for everyone and I don’t think it should be REQUIRED. As an OPTION it does provide a student the opportunity to accelerate their pace if they are motivated and possible graduate early, or take classes not offered at their home school.
Inman Park Boy
March 14th, 2012
12:05 pm
Howard Gardner developed his theory of multiple intelligences years ago. Essentially, it says that some of us are good at math, others at writing, and still others at athletics. The upshot of his theory is that we all LEARN, we just dont all learn in the same way. Some us are visual learners, some of us are auditory learners, and some of us are kinesthetic learners. A good classroom teacher knows this and tailors a lesson to address the earning styles of all the students in the classroom. Somehow, I don’t see a computer doing this. I know on efamily that decided to home school with their 14 year old son, who nor only was an auditory learner but he also had slight ADD. It was a disaster. For him, sitting front of a compouter screen that was not interactive was impossible. They put him back in a private achool. In my estimation, a lot of the crackpot theories about “on-line learning” have been sold by the computer manufacturers.
Inman Park Boy
March 14th, 2012
12:06 pm
By the way 3schoolkids is absolutely correct.
Virtual and Face to Face Teacher
March 14th, 2012
12:15 pm
I have taught in a face to face classroom for 17 years. I also, have been an online adjunct instructor for the past four years. What SB 289 is trying to do is necessary. Students that I have in my face to face classroom today are not the same students that I had when I first started teaching. While today’s student is much different, the way that they are taught is mostly unchanged. Students today spend a much of their away from school day on a computer, smartphone, ipad, or ipod. Yet, we wonder why the students of today don’t seem to be motivated in the classroom. While lectures, worksheets and textbooks still serve a purpose in the face to face class setting, education in general needs to adjust to the learner of today.
Most school districts limit or ban the use of the above technology during the school day. This is either because of school policy or budget issues in purchasing the equipment. As a virtual classroom teacher I have the ability and flexibility to utilize all of the technology that students already use on a daily basis. Students are much more engaged when I do things like, have them use a cell phone to text a quiz question or use a webcam to explain a concept that a student is struggling with. This is where education is now and where it is going in the future. If changing of education with the times is left up to the local school boards , I am not totally convinced that it will ever happen. SB 289 is a step in the right direction.
techie,teacher, parent
March 14th, 2012
12:20 pm
Thank you Georgia! I like that you have taken the initiative to be on the forefront of education versus lagging behind. In this household, we are a techie and a teacher by profession but also the parents of 2. I want nothing more for my children then to be successful, contributing adults. Let’s face it – the world is changing from when we were kids and I want my kids to change with it. The skill sets needed are those that require my child to work with someone on the other side of the world and online courses can help bring that skill set to him. From reading several posts, it sounds like some of us need to really check what online education is and what various kinds there are. There is a difference between an online school (GAVS) and a resource (Khan Academy). Online schools have the ability to reach all students, they are not just reading anymore – they are interactive, you meet with teachers synchronously, you have auditory of content, videos, etc. In most cases, you have LIVE content expert teachers!!! As quoted from the GaVS site, mainpage “Georgia Virtual School provides a teacher led, virtual classroom environment.” I want my student to have the best of both worlds so that he is adaptable in any situation. Thank you Georgia for looking out for my children’s future!
Beverly Fraud
March 14th, 2012
12:33 pm
Mary Elizabeth,
I’m right there with you on the questions about the ALEC story. It took YEARS for the AJC to acknowledge the fact that WIDESPREAD, SYSTEMIC cheating took place in APS. (Notice I said “acknowledge” as people like MACE and the AJC’s very OWN Paul Donsky were talking about it way back in 2001, all while the editorial board was singing the praises of Beverly Hall)
Hopefully the AJC has seen how investigative reporting has ENHANCED their image, and they’ll report on this, as Maureen’s comment seems to indicate.
Which leads to the question; what the heck ever happened to the PROMISED report on the E-Rate scandal at APS? Not the old one, the new one.
Mary Elizabeth
March 14th, 2012
12:34 pm
Why not satisfy everyone? Make the online course an elective course, and not a mandatory one. By promoting it as an elective choice, students and their parents would be able to decide for themselves, individually, if an online course would serve well their individual situations and needs.
Again, as an elective course, this online course would be initiated through Georgia’s DOE guidelines and from local school districts, and not through mandated legislation, sponsored by those who are not educators.
Mary Elizabeth
March 14th, 2012
12:39 pm
@Beverly Fraud, 12:33 pm
“Mary Elizabeth,
I’m right there with you on the questions about the ALEC story.”
=====================================
Thank you for your words, Beverly. Much appreciated.
3schoolkids
March 14th, 2012
12:41 pm
Before I would support required online learning for high school students, I would like to see GADOE’s statistics on the number of students that enroll in a GAVS class versus the number that complete and pass the course. Yes it is innovative and offers a great option, but it needs to be OPTIONAL!
Don’t know about other schools, but our high school library closes at 3:45pm, what about students that don’t have the technology (or support) needed at home? Now do we suddenly have the money in the budget to outfit the schools with all of the technology and personnel needed to accomplish this?
Atlanta Mom
March 14th, 2012
12:42 pm
As I previously stated, I have a child who is majoring in physics. She took Algebra on line. Two years after taking the class, she complained that she could remember none of it.
In this particular course, the student took a pretest. Get a hundred on the pretest, skip that section and on to the next. Sounds good, unless you your child has great test taking skills. I think she managed to get hundreds many pretests without having complete understanding of the material.
At any rate, it was not a good experiance in our household.
Atlanta Mom
March 14th, 2012
12:46 pm
I also had two children take health through GAVS. They could have finished the 18 week course in 3, but were not allowed to. If they had one word to describe GAVS, it would be : disorganized.
Ron F.
March 14th, 2012
12:55 pm
I would expect that if the bill passes, the virtual school would have to offer a variety of courses so kids could choose based on their strengths. It wouldn’t take long to look at a kid’s grades and help him choose an online course. A lot of kids will take hybrid or totally online courses in college, so this could be a good way to find out which work. My youngest would probably do very well as he is an independent learner who generally likes to do things at his own pace. I did a master’s a few years ago that was totally online and we even had group projects to research and compile online. It was pretty intense, with a lot of research and writing and no tests to guess my way through. I haven’t worked that hard in a college class in a long time and I loved the flexibility of choosing the hours I worked on it.
Really amazed
March 14th, 2012
1:02 pm
As I have stated before, the way of the future for ALL educational needs!!!! Elementary, middle, high school, college and continuing ed!!!!!
techie,teacher, parent
March 14th, 2012
1:43 pm
I think many of us are focusing on particular classes – the core. However, if you look the bill does not indicate which classes the student has to take. There is no specific wording that says it has to be an English class, a Math class or any of the other core. Since reading this blog, I have looked around the GaVS site along with some others including online charter schools and they all offer more than the core classes. I can see classes on Agriculture, Banking, Broadcast, and several different languages (more than any school district I have been in and I have been in the big ones) to name just a few. I would think that with the options that are available a student can find a class that fits their intellectual curiosity and even excel at an online class.
Devil's Advocate
March 14th, 2012
1:49 pm
Why are all these (R)s proposing bills that would drive up costs for public education? I thought that was the (D)s job? Oh yeah, forcing online courses for everyone means someone has to provide additional IT infrastructure, oversight of implementation, and ongoing management which means some consultants and several vendors get business opportunities on our tax money.
Should every Georgia high school student take an online course? Why? – Atlanta Journal Constitution (blog)
March 14th, 2012
2:39 pm
[...] here: Should every Georgia high school student take an online course? Why? – Atlanta Journal Constit… Tags: archives, classifieds, digital, economy, georgia, ipad, safety, sports, technology, [...]
no more govt
March 14th, 2012
3:10 pm
http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2012/03/15/25states.h31.html?tkn=LTTFhgSt1OKIqGnBKjS%2FJTREtVUevdaKWoYp&cmp=clp-edweek&utm_source=fb&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=mrss
here is a link that says states cannot afford the virtual school they have now
so is mr rogers paying for this or cutting the teachers salaries again to pay for more programs to impress the constiuents?
Brandy
March 14th, 2012
3:14 pm
Still waiting for an answer to my questions…
Would also love to hear how this mandate will affect students without access to computers and/or the internet. Even here in Cobb, even in East Cobb, there are students without at home internet access. In rural Georgia, I imagine that there are far larger numbers of students without home internet access. Many schools struggle to provide enough computers in-school to meet the daily needs of their students. I can’t imagine that every child in Georgia would be able to have equal access and opportunity with the mandate.
@Mary-Elizabeth, Are you sure none of the major investigative news outlets are not owned by ALEC supporters? If they are, I would imagine a lack of desire to devote investigative man hours to the cause.
Maureen Downey
March 14th, 2012
3:18 pm
Brandy, House Ed Committee passed the bill but without mandates. So, rather than requiring systems to make students take an online course, systems are urged to encourage online learning.
Maureen
Chaos
March 14th, 2012
3:35 pm
Much better Bill without the mandates. It now gives local systems the encouragement they may need to implement online learning without forcing it upon everyone. Kudos to the House Ed subcommittee.
Reinvent_ED
March 14th, 2012
3:51 pm
I suggest all of the naysayers read Seth Godin’s manifesto, “Stop Stealing Dreams.” It’s an eye-opener for all those who oppose this bill.
slp98
March 14th, 2012
4:43 pm
Reinvent_ED – I have no problem with systems offering online classes, but why is it appropriate for our state legislators, with no educational experience and questionable motives, to force this upon school systems? Shouldn’t each system have the flexibility to make the decisions that are best for their students? Or at least allow the state DOE to make decisions? Let’s face it; our legislators in GA have a long and terrible record when it comes to making education decisions. Shouldn’t those with some knowledge about EDUCATING students (including parents) have some input into policies? Isn’t that why we elect local school boards – so that communities can decide what’s best for their students?
On-line advocate
March 14th, 2012
4:44 pm
Online learning prepares students for many realms: social life, college and professional performance. All of these life roles required advanced networking and software skills. Georgia students will need to be competent in all of these areas. What better way to gain these valuable skills than to apply them in the learning environment. Sounds like a cost saving way to ensure students are successful
Brandy
March 14th, 2012
4:44 pm
Thanks, Maureen! I was hoping that would happen. Finally, a tiny bit of common sense out of our legislators.
I love teaching. I hate what it is becoming...
March 14th, 2012
5:32 pm
I suspect, in time, we will be prepared to offer quality online education to students in settings that will truly make the best use of interactive technology and virtual interfaces. Teachers will incorporate online lessons and face to face instruction in ways that will benefit each individual student and access their talents. However, we are not there yet. Online classes are not ready to meet the needs of non-motivated students. And often they are not particularly challenging to high level students. Too many students till do not have access to computers in their homes. In general, such courses do not yet have fast enough feedback to deal with the need for clarification or student confusion. They do not yet have the ability to stretch student thinking beyond what is included in the lesson offered. They lack the spontaneity and creativity offered by classroom instruction. I have taken several online courses to complete college credits and to further my education. I found all of them boring, unchallenging, and far too dependent upon rote learning. If I missed a question, there was no remediation or explanation offered no additional material to help scaffold my understanding, just a chance to reread the same material and try again.
Eventually, I believe we will be ready to open that brave new world of online learning for k-12 students – however, using technology merely because it exists, without any indication that it actually does a better job in general of educating children, is not wise. If we push this too soon, before the content, instructional methodology, equipment and training is in place, and before we have data to prove its worth, we risk throwing money into something that will fail, and turning people against the very idea of online courses. We are in a fiscal crisis in schools right now. The idea that we should spend billions paying for support for virtual schools while brick and mortar schools are being stripped to the bone is short sighted.
Reinvent_ED
March 14th, 2012
5:33 pm
@slp98 – the only way behavior changes if you create incentives or policies to foster such change. I can assure you that without creative goals such as the mandate that has now regrettably been removed, that behavior will NOT change.
And to your other points, I would rather not leave this decision to communities, who thus far, have failed our children every step of the way. We need to embrace change and embrace new ways of learning. Our children deserve it!
Mary Elizabeth
March 14th, 2012
5:53 pm
@Brandy, 3:14 pm
@Mary-Elizabeth, Are you sure none of the major investigative news outlets are not owned by ALEC supporters? If they are, I would imagine a lack of desire to devote investigative man hours to the cause.
========================================================
You have broached a very important point of truth. I will elaborate somewhat. Some analysts refer to what you allude to as an ideological “Echo Chamber.” There are powerful monetary interests in our nation who are invested not only in that which will benefit their corporation’s (not all corporations) livelihood (as well as their own), but also in that which will promote their ideology of “starving the beast of government” through minimizing the influence public sector and maximizing the influence of the private sector in American life.
That “Echo Chamber” consists of conservative Think Tanks, such as The Heritage Foundation, conservative liasons such as ALEC which connects corporate interests with conservative legislators in every state, conservative news media such as FOXNews and a number of other groups (some generated from Texas), which coordinate a conservative ideology in our nation, through agencies and through personal contacts. Some examples of their influence are seen in attempts to dismantle Social Security, Medicare, and now Obamacare, as well as public education, all of which would serve the common good. I believe that your are correct in your inquiry that some of the top financial contributors to one part of that ideological Echo Chamber, also, contribute to other parts within it. Most of these people have great wealth and power within our nation.
I do not support the thinking behind their ideology. I believe that, in America, which was created from the basic belief that “all. . .are created equal,” every citizen should be treated as equal to every other, inherently, and that our nation should fully live out its creed. That is why I supported Civil Rights as a Southern white woman in the 1960s. That is why is support collective bargaining for those without power except through their numbers. That is why I support public education so that every child will have the equal opportunity to a good public education, regardless of his or her station in life. I do not support a paternalistic, hierarchial view of humanity, which we see in most corporations and which I lived through in the Old South. I support the same egalitarian world vision that Jefferson had and that Martin Luther King, Jr. had. Their vision is one that is antithetical to a hierarchial vision of human beings. That is why we separated from England in the 1770s – because Americans, inherently, do not believe in inequality based on wealth, power, or prestige positions. Americans believe that all are inherently equal and, therefore, all deserve equal opportunity for “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.”
I place much faith in the public sector in which all citizens are taxed for services for the common good of all. The public sector is the great leveling field in American life because public funds, through public taxes are meant for public services for all – everyone equal. Those public funds are not meant to be used to embellish the financial wherewithal of those with special interests, and certainly not private market business interests. Those public funds are not meant for profit, but for services rendered to all, equally.
As far as I am aware, The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, under Anne Cox Chambers (and her family), is not a part of this conservative Echo Chamber. From an interview for the 50th anniversary of The Atlanta Magazine, on May 1, 2011, Mrs. Chambers is quoted as saying this answer in response to the question, “What appeals to you about the Democratic party?”
————————————————————-
Anne Cox Chambers: “Well, goodness! Well, that’s just so obvious. I just am a Democrat. I could never, never be a Republican. I remember someone asked Daddy if he would ever think of voting for a Republican, and he said, “Sure I would, if I ever found one worth voting for.” It’s the ideals of the Democratic party.”
http://www.atlantamagazine.com/features/anniversary/story.aspx?ID=1457384
———————————————————————————
I am grateful that Mrs. Chambers is still at the helm, through her voice, of the AJC. It matters not that Mrs. Chambers is a billionaire. She retains a vision of equality within all humanity, as did millionaire and Patrician Franklin Delano Roosevelt, and as did aristocrat and wealthy landowner, Thomas Jefferson.
I have no doubt that the AJC will do what it needs to do to uncover ALEC’s influence on Georgia’s legislation. I think I should state, at this point, that in my opinion that investigation from the AJC should pursue more than simply educational legislation, but all areas of Georgia’s legislation which may be under the corporate influences of ALEC and others within that ideological “Echo Chamber.” The direction of this nation could be at stake. The direction of our nation needs to hold steady to the authentic and timeless beliefs of our Founding Fathers and not to the current beliefs of today’s corporate moguls. Besides, I do not trust anything that must be done in secret.
Patrick Thompson
March 14th, 2012
6:36 pm
Interactive or digital learning is the least effective way to teach and learn – it shoud always be considered a tool that augments face to face learning, not a cure all. There is enough access to electronic tools, but not enough investment in people – the teachers and parents who really make education happen. Besides, legislators like Chip Rogers need to come clean with their financial interests in digital learning software companies and his place in organizations like Jeb Bush’s Digital Learning Initiative.
Ron C.
March 14th, 2012
8:16 pm
Oh sure, technology will save the day!
Just because we can, doesn’t mean we should.
I hate to see education go in this direction so soon, without evidence, as has been noted. Also, it does smell of “getting rid of teachers.”
One question– are kids going to stay at home by themselves during the day to complete the course? It would be absurd and mean to require them be at school all day, only to come home to more school work online. GET A GRIP!
Bryant & Stratton College Online Hosts Free Webinar on How to Write an … | Home Finance Plus
March 14th, 2012
8:19 pm
[...] Should every Georgia high school student take an online course? Why? Update: This afternoon the House Education Committee passed the online learning bill with the mandate removed. Now, the bill urges school systems to maximize digital learning rather than mandating that students take at least one online course to … Read more on Atlanta Journal Constitution (blog) [...]
Reinvent_ED
March 14th, 2012
9:28 pm
Teacher2, you 100% out of line by stating I am not “impartial.” I get ZERO FINANCIAL GAIN from anything in the education space. My views have been formulated over years of studying the roots of innovation, as well as education. I come from a family of teachers and so you have no right to make the statement you made. I recommend you retract your comments immediately. It is people like you that create the noise in the intellectual debate about public policy in education.
Teacher2
March 14th, 2012
9:41 pm
@Reinvent_ED
I am entitled to my opinion just as you a have stated your opinion throughout the blog. My views also come from years of teaching experience. So I “recommend” you learn the definition of opinion. Furthermore, you have solicited your educational website on this blog that should have been a disclaimer, which of course is my opinion. Wow, the marvels of a blog!
Reinvent_ED
March 14th, 2012
9:45 pm
My blog is not my business, so you should not have assumed I do it for financial gain. I reference my blog because it has years of empirical research on it. I would ONLY put a disclaimer on something if I had a conflict of interest. If i had an investment in an education related project and I mentioned it in a blog post, I would issue a disclaimer.
I need no disclaimer, and I suggest you use your time to make baseless accusations to someone else.
I have already reported your blog post and asked for its removal, because you have slandered my reputation.
Reinvent_ED
March 14th, 2012
9:49 pm
I have reason to add a disclaimer, because I have no conflict of interest. I author a free blog that has garnered national recognition. It has years of research in it, and you had no right to make a baseless claim that risks tarnishing my reputation. I have requested that your post be removed. Better you focus on the issues and not make personal attacks!
FYI
March 15th, 2012
10:54 am
@ Reinvent_ED. The hit dog squeals.
If you’re going to claim “slander,” then you have to prove that your professional reputation has been damaged (which you can’t prove on an anonymous blog, and where’s your proof it’s been damaged?) and you have to prove the “slander” is false. All that Teacher2 has claimed is that you linked to your own educational blog and are not impartial to Bill 289. Where exactly is the slander?
I too thought when I read all of your one-sided posts that you were seeking free advertising for your own blog…though I thought you were a Republican lobbyist for the bill. It’s really kind of funny to read your sputtering after Teacher2 punctured your balloon at 8:40 pm.
Reinvent_ED
March 15th, 2012
11:51 am
FYI – you are also out of line. Mark my words – HR 1162 is going to pass, and change is coming to Georgia’s education system. You can either embrace change, or you better get out of the way!
Reinvent_ED
March 15th, 2012
12:37 pm
And last point to all of you: why do you “label” everything as democrat or republican? maybe if everyone would use their own individuality and look at the issue for what it is, rather than assuming that an issue is a “Republican” or “Democrat” issue, we wouldn’t have the polarization in this country. Do you think the African American and other minority families whose children are in charter schools care if you’re a democrat or republican? As long as you support innovation in education, it doesn’t matter.
Let me conclude by sharing with you some of the wisest words our founding fathers said. John Adams was so clairvoyant about the fear of the two party system:
“There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting measures in opposition to each other. This, in my humble apprehension, is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution.”
Adams was so accurate in his remarks.
Don’t assume that someone is with the opposing party just because they disagree with you on a certain issue. You have no idea who I am and what I have built for the city of Atlanta. The future well-being of our children is not a republican or democratic issue. It’s common sense.
FYI
March 15th, 2012
1:45 pm
@ Reinvent_ED: “Mark my words – HR 1162 is going to pass.”
Well, you were wrong…it didn’t pass as a mandate to schools, only a recommendation. Thank goodness. Another unfunded mandate for schools that have had their budgets cut, with students who include those who are poor and can’t afford computers.
As Mark Twain wrote: “Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.”
Reinvent_ED
March 15th, 2012
3:40 pm
Good luck, FYI. Respond to me after the resolution passes and the people vote for it on November’s ballot. And, regarding your statements which the AJC should be removing from this blog, I’d like to offer you famous words from Martin Luther King Jr who once said,
“Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.”
Reinvent_ED
March 15th, 2012
3:58 pm
And one last thing. I do not think the readers of this blog want a continued back and forth between two readers, one who is clearly set on making personal attacks and not engaging in civil discourse. And that person is not me.
@Maureen, this is my final post on your blog. Until such time as the AJC monitors the blogs appropriately, I am refraining from making any additional contributions. The tone of these blogs is offensive and not what anyone with any kind of brain would call “intellectual debate.”
Let me say one last thing to whoever this “FYI” is. You talk about the poor and those that can’t afford computers. Well guess what? I work in those neighborhoods, and I can tell you without stuttering that the children my nonprofit organization support have more passion, more creativity, more curiosity and more intellect than you! And they don’t need computers to achieve – just the right ingredients that will continue to build their social and emotional skills. Technology alone does nothing. That’s called “cramming.”
FYI
March 15th, 2012
4:11 pm
@Reinvent_ED. So sensitive! “You don’t know who I am!”, you actually stated. Ridiculous. I suppose that’s “civil discourse.”
The children in your non-profit organization would have needed computers to complete their schoolwork if HB 289 had passed as originally written, no matter how many how many “social and emotional skills” they had.
Prof
March 15th, 2012
5:52 pm
Maureen must be quite even-handed, for she seems to have removed the earlier blog link that “Reinvent_ED” provided, as well as the supposedly “slanderous” post in which Teacher2 complained about it.
Mark Twain was a wonderfully insightful and incisive critic of American politics, among other hypocrisies.
Teacher2
March 15th, 2012
6:02 pm
@FYI- Thanks!
@Reinvent_ED
The assumption of “financial gain” is all yours. You spoke of “financial gain”, those are your words not mine. I find that to be an interesting assumption on your part (which again is my opinion). My response to the issue of “tarnishing my reputation” is that you really need to get over yourself!
Stop Stealing Dreams
March 15th, 2012
10:17 pm
I think that @Reinvent_ED raises a lot of salient points. I think it is quite appropriate for this person to bring in outside research and perspectives, because it’s clear from the posts to date, that this blog’s readers need to read Malcolm Gladwell’s “Outliers.” I think you have all felt so threatened by an individual who has raised some excellent points!
SB 289 is about access to online learning as part of a “blended learning” experience. Yes, @FYI, you are correct that many of these kids don’t have computers at home, but they do have them in school, and there are mechanisms in place to ensure these kids get the same type of digital learning opportunities as those who have those computers at home. So I think you are partly right and partly wrong.
It doesn’t matter if the research hasn’t proved this out yet. By the time you get what you want, it’ll be too late. your kids don’t process information the way the previous generation did. It’s called “neuroplasticity.”
This reader thinks that all of you should open your minds and consider the merits of what @Reinvent_ED said. You made some incorrect assumptions on this individual and all of you should take a deep breath. I for one am going to visit his blog and suggest he consider writing something about the discussions going on in this state. You think he has an ego, but I don’t agree. See what this person has done before you go down the character-assassination path.
Prof
March 16th, 2012
11:14 am
To this outsider (I don’t teach K-12, and my child is long grown and flown off to the North), it seems as if a good part of the problem here is that there are very practical factors here that Reinvent_ED doesn’t/won’t consider.
No, all K-12 students do NOT have sufficient computer support at their schools to provide “the same type of digital learning opportunities as those who have those computers at home.” Many schools, especially in the rural areas, have had budget cutbacks. HB 289 would have mandated that all Georgia schools provide such online courses, whether or not they had sufficient resources to do so. Please read the earlier entries on this blog thread for some idea of the practical difficulties and expenses this unfunded mandate could have entailed.
And public education must educate all of its students, its special education and very poor students, as well as its gifted and suburban students.
Then there is the larger issue of this educational issue being decided by a political fiat rather than by the state’s DOE. That to me is truly disturbing, and never addressed by Reinvent_ED at all.
Stop Stealing Dreams
March 16th, 2012
12:53 pm
Prof, you can only incorporate so much in blog post. I think the problem you are describing is not something that education can solve in and of itself. Poverty plays a huge role in schooling, and I can assure you that we can reach these students with technology by creating an “innovation ecosystem,” which brings together government, private industry and education to create transitional pathways for children. For example, I think you might want what Nashville’s public schools are doing quite interesting. See the work they have done to convert their high schools into “Academies,” or “Small Learning Communities.” They are doing it right.
I think you open up Pandora’s Box when you say that public education must educate all of its students. That is absolutely critical, but it can’t be done through a “one size fits all” approach. I can tell you unequivocally that the model used to build our public education system during the Industrial Age will be the model that could potentially destroy it in the age of connectivity.
Seth Godin’s manifesto, “Stop Stealing Dreams,” is one that all of @Maureen’s readers should read.
Ronin
March 16th, 2012
2:53 pm
Interesting points on both sides. While I don’t agree with a government mandate for on-line classes, it will eventually supplement/blend with face time in the class. These programs will eventually save dollars by making teaching more efficient and requiring less brick and mortar space. Virtual, Charter and other technological advancements will help improve the quality of public/government education, by offering more choices.
Teacher2
March 16th, 2012
5:35 pm
I have noted the following previous post:
Reinvent_ED
March 14th, 2012
3:51 pm
I suggest all of the naysayers read Seth Godin’s manifesto, “Stop Stealing Dreams.” It’s an eye-opener for all those who oppose this bill.
——————————————————————————————————————————-
Reinvent_ED
March 15th, 2012
3:58 pm
@Maureen, this is my final post on your blog. Until such time as the AJC monitors the blogs appropriately, I am refraining from making any additional contributions….
—————————————————————————————————————————
Stop Stealing Dreams
March 16th, 2012
12:53 pm
Seth Godin’s manifesto, “Stop Stealing Dreams,” is one that all of @Maureen’s readers should read.
————————————————————————————————————————————-
What a coincidence!
Reinvent_ED
March 16th, 2012
7:54 pm
Teacher2, you have too much time on your hands. Maybe the person is just a supporter of me?. You would do well by reading the manifesto, and you might learn a thing or two about it. I have written a blog post about this blog and that fact that people can be so hostile and downright pathetic. My children have better manners than you. I’m glad you’re not their teacher! My mother who taught in public schools for her entire career would be ashamed of your!
Reinvent_ED
March 16th, 2012
8:00 pm
And @Maureen, feel free to remove my comment. This will DEFINITELY be my last post on this blog. So Teacher 2, FYI and whomever else wants to continue to make personal attacks and not debate civilly, feel free to continue lambasting me – I won’t be reading it.
Prof
March 16th, 2012
9:16 pm
I did a little research on Seth Godin’s “Stop Stealing Dreams.” It is an eBook, free and available for anyone to download who Googles the title. Great free advertising in AJC, Maureen. Apple wouldn’t have anything to do with carrying it; and Amazon.com and Barnes and Noble.com don’t list it among their eBooks. The equivalent in regular book publishing would be a vanity press book.
And vanity press books are worthless as serious publications because anyone with money can publish them…there’s no scholarly vetting. The problem here is not that it’s an eBook, but that no-one besides the author has vouched for its accuracy or scholarship… yet it purports to be a manifesto in education.
Right on target, Teacher2!
Wooden Horse
March 17th, 2012
9:21 am
I can’t speak for other online schools, but I can tell you that when my child took a class through Georgia Virtual School, he had a teacher who was not certified in the field in which she was teaching. In addition, when another student cheated off my child, Georgia Virtual School did nothing about it.
Ole Guy
March 17th, 2012
2:40 pm
I realize there exists an arguement of “this is the 21st century…kids of today are (somehow) different from their mid-20th century counterparts”. The basic core of a meaningful education lies, not so much in acquiring the skills of 21st century technology but in mastering the basics within the “3-R Domain”. If the education community is to expose kids to the world of technology to any extent beyond minimal intro, they need to, first, DEMAND mastery of the basics. Anything less and all the high-speed utilization of technology, on-line course work, etc don’t mean a thing. It’s that frequin simple.
Shoving technology down kids’ throats, prior to basics mastery, is tantamount to stickin’ that 19-to-21 y/o kid in high performance aircraft before his first solo in simple trainers. The result is next-to-guaranteed one outcome…DEATH. The only difference: the student pilot’s death will be quick, while these kids’ “deaths” will be in the form of ill-prepared lives of mediocrity..
Stop Stealing Dreams
March 17th, 2012
4:32 pm
prof, READ THE BOOK. The problem ALL of you have is that you are looking for research and data. Seth Godin is one of the most respected social media gurus in the WORLD. Perhaps if educators were compelled to read some of his books, our education system may be faring better.
Before you judge a book, READ IT. It’s the close minded people who read this blog that keep our education system in the dark ages. No ones talking about showing technology down kids’ throats, Ole Guy. You are not a digital native, and you do not understand how kids process information.
Before you all make judgments, DO SOME RESEARCH. I challenge Prof and Teacher2 to read the manifesto and then comment on it. There are some teachers on this blog who are very open to change and are using digital learning tools in their teaching plans. Some of you will never change – you can’t teach an old dog new tricks.
So keep on lambasting digital learning and assuming that folks like me and @Reinvent_ED are anti-teacher and anti-public education. What we are against is the status quo, which all of you are so set on protecting.
READ THE BOOK. What’s the harm? Maybe you’ll even learn something. You folks act like children – students in your classes who tell you they don’t want to try something new. So pathetic and sad. I I happened to enjoy the post on @Reinvent_ED’s blog. He’s got a point.
Stop Stealing Dreams
March 17th, 2012
5:26 pm
As John Stuart Mill said, “It is better to be a human being dissatisfied than a pig satisfied; better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a fool satisfied. And, if the fool, or the pig, are of a different opinion, it is because they only know their own side of the question.”
Prof
March 17th, 2012
5:56 pm
@Stop Stealing Dreams, Mar. 17, 5:26 pm. Indeed.
I didn’t bother to read this 30,000 manifesto with 132 sections, but went right to Wikipedia, today’s online source of information I’m sure you’d approve.
Wikipedia terms Seth Godin an entrepreneur, author, and public speaker. He graduated with an MBA and founded Yoyodyne, one of the first online marketing companies. Here he came up with the concept of permission marketing, where the business provides something ‘anticipated, personal, and relevant.’ Yoyodyne used contests, online games, and scavenger hunts to market companies to participating users. In 1998, Godin sold Yoyodyne to Yahoo! for $30 million and became Yahoo’s vice president of direct marketing, a position he held until 2000. In 2010, he began working directly with Amazon; and in 2012 released an online manifesto “Stop Stealing Dreams” in response to the question ‘What do you think we ought to do about education?’”
So Godin is a multimillionaire who knows a lot about online business marketing and is on hire for Amazon, but has no scholarly knowledge of anything but business, no experience in education or teaching, no background in the subject at all.
He may have money, but that doesn’t mean that he knows a blessed thing about Education. It sounds like he’s shaped his so-called “manifesto” to what he thinks the market wants. This may benefit Amazon, but not public schools with human students, tight budgets, and teachers with actual experience.
Stop Stealing Dreams
March 17th, 2012
6:07 pm
READ THE BOOK – you’re still stuck in the Industrial Age. Keep on berating Seth – ever read his books? Of course not. The man is a genius. And if he chose to teach, he’d be a great teacher. It’s so sad to read your comments, Prof. Maybe those outside “the system” can help fix the system??? Ever hear of “groupthink?” Doubt it – you didn’t get educated in that subject area. Oh I forgot. They don’t really teach management and entrepreneurship in K-12 education. Kids aren’t taught that it’s ok to fail, that you learn more from failures than successes. Oh yeah – it’s not in the curriculum so you can’t teach it. Maybe I’ll add a question on the next multiple choice test. Better yet, I’ll have my students memorize what groupthink means.
It’s pathetic that you can’t read the book – I read it in 3 hours. Instead, you make sweeping generalizations. I’ve had enough of this discussion – there are no intellectuals to debate with here.
Stop Stealing Dreams
March 17th, 2012
6:09 pm
Let me tell you one more think, Prof. EXPERIENCE MEANS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. My entire career has been based on the fact that critical thinking, tenacity and hard work trump experience EVERY TIME. I’ll take the thinker over the experience any day of the week. But of course I can’t in public education, because you’ve got TENURE. What a joke. This debate is a joke, and I’ll leave the rest of my monologue for an environment where open minds and intelligent, respectful discussion prevails!!!
Prof
March 17th, 2012
6:20 pm
“I’ll leave the rest of my monologue for an environment where open minds and intelligent, respectful discussion prevails!!!” You mean, where no-one questions or criticizes you. Your contempt for education certainly convinces one to read a book on the subject.
Godin sounds like a blowhard who’s written what he thinks will sell to fools like legislators who want to pass laws on how schools should be run. A shill for Amazon making a lot of money. But certainly not a thinker.
Prof
March 17th, 2012
7:58 pm
Excuse me. I did not express myself accurately. A “shill” is one who works as a decoy, as in a confidence game, by posing as a customer or innocent bystander. That would be Reinvent_ED. Godin sounds like a “hack” for Amazon, or a writer hired to produce commercial writing.
Teacher2
March 17th, 2012
9:30 pm
@Prof,
Thanks for the information!
I wonder when both Reinvent_ED and Stop Stealing Dreams will follow through on the threat to stop posting.
Why Do Cyber Charter Proponents Lie? « Virtual School Meanderings
March 19th, 2012
9:52 am
[...] note that the folks in Georgia are having a similar conversation, as evidenced by this blog entry at the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. Like this:LikeBe the first to like this post. Leave a [...]
The Tech Tuesday Newsletter 3/20/2012 | Monty Jones – Instructional Technology
March 19th, 2012
6:20 pm
[...] Single District Virtual Ed Programs Apparently, this is the fastest growing sector of virtual learning in the US in 2011.This article does a good job describing the need and current environment for these programs. I know Chesterfield County has a big online program, and I believe York as well, and honestly I am glad to see school districts begin to take this on themselves as opposed to for-profit companies. My concerns about for-profits leading this charge, and other concerns about the growth of virtual education, were expressed in an editorial I co-authored in the British Journal of Educational Technology last year. There were other articles this week that focused on K12 virtual Ed, from how to create successful programs to how to measure program effectiveness to legislation in Georgia that could have required every student to take an online course. [...]
Should every Georgia high school student take an online course ... | Using Web 2.0 Tools in Instruction | Scoop.it
March 20th, 2012
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Should every Georgia high school student take an online course? Why? | Get Schooled | E-Learning and Online Teaching | Scoop.it
March 20th, 2012
1:10 pm
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