Counterintuitive logic about discipline and achievement gap
I wanted to share an op-ed from Jacob Vigdor, a professor in Duke University’s Sanford School of Public Policy and Department of Economics, on the federal discipline data that was released last week. This piece will run on the Monday education op-ed page.
By Jacob Vigdor
A recently released report has spawned new outrage over an old problem: Black and Hispanic students are more likely to be suspended from school than white students. The knee-jerk reaction to this finding is to think it unjust, reflective of lingering racism among school principals and disciplinarians, and no doubt a contributor to the achievement gap.
If you believe that, ask yourself if you also believe the following things:
1. There are many students — of all races — who walk the straight and narrow path without being prodded. There are also some, of all races, who cause trouble, but the threat of punishment keeps them in line at least to some extent.
2. The presence of disruptive students in a classroom makes it more difficult for other students to learn.
3. Students who grow up in tough circumstances — with a single parent in the household, or in a foster family — are probably at higher risk of acting out.
4. The average school principal — or, more precisely, the average principal in a predominantly black or Hispanic school — is probably unlikely to be a bigoted racist.
If statements one through four seem reasonable to you, then you should also believe the following: the school discipline gap does not exacerbate the test score gap. In fact, closing the school discipline gap would make the test score gap worse.
How do we move from statements one through four to that radical conclusion? The key is paying attention to the work of University of Rochester economist Joshua Kinsler, who has found evidence to support each of the four points. Here’s the logic that ties them together.
Blacks and whites who attend the same school, as it turns out, are not treated all that differently when they misbehave. Yet there is a school discipline gap. The reason is that predominantly black schools are harsher on all students. You might think this is racist, but Kinsler’s work shows that black and white principals alike are tougher on kids in predominantly black schools. That supports point 4.
Kinsler’s work further offers some insight into why harsh discipline is the name of the game in these schools. Because of racial economic inequality, these schools tend to have a higher proportion of high-risk kids — the ones who grow up in tough circumstances. That supports point 3.
Kinsler’s work also shows that high-risk kids behave better under a harsh discipline regime. So tough disciplinary standards are neither arbitrary nor capricious; they are a tool principals use rationally to manage potential behavior problems. That’s point 2.
Finally, Kinsler shows that removing a highly disruptive child from a classroom — by suspending that child, in- or out-of-school, helps the other children in the classroom focus on their studies. So that means principals aren’t just going after bad behavior. They want to create an environment where students can learn. It is true that keeping the misbehaving child out of the classroom deprives him (and it’s usually a him) of learning opportunities, but principals value the needs of the many above the needs of the one. And who can blame them. That’s point 1.
So consider what happens if we eliminate racial disparities in school punishment, for example, by banning suspensions. The whole system unravels. In the schools with few high-risk students, nothing much changes. In the more disadvantaged schools, behavior worsens, misbehaving students remain in their classroom and disrupt the learning of their classmates to a greater extent. Academic performance worsens in the disadvantaged school, but stays about the same in the more advantaged school. And just like that, the test score gap widens.
You may be skeptical of my rhetorical sleight of hand, but Kinsler’s work, published or accepted for publication in peer-reviewed journals, is based on sound data analysis.
Another way to think about it is this. Do you trust the principal in your child’s school? Do you think that person has the best interests of your child at heart? If so, why would you advocate removing a tool — a blunt one, to be sure, but a tool nonetheless — from the toolbox of strategies available to help all children reach their highest potential?
School administrators don’t always get things right; the honest ones will be the first to tell you that. But without strong evidence to the contrary, it is certainly reasonable to give them the benefit of the doubt.
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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71 comments Add your comment
dteacher
March 10th, 2012
9:11 pm
I hope Dekalb’s in-school and central office administration read this.
The “call the parent” approach to discipline is not working.
Jayne
March 10th, 2012
9:24 pm
Refusing to discipline a child who is acting out is saying that we don’t care about that student or about the other students that must deal with the disruption.
Beverly Fraud
March 10th, 2012
9:43 pm
So FINALLY someone is willing to admit it.
It really IS the discipline, Stupid!
And to think at one time this blog claimed that discipline wasn’t a “pressing issue.”
Beverly Fraud
March 10th, 2012
9:48 pm
Given the general take (dare we say ‘agenda’?) on discipline issues in this blog, to see this COMMON SENSE piece in the blog (how anyone thinks this is “counter-intuitive” is beyond me) and to see it in PRINT (as an op-ed no less) leads to one unmistakeable conclusion:
Pigs must be flying…over a FROZEN Hades.
INDEED!
Brandy
March 10th, 2012
10:09 pm
Wonderfully written and addressed some of the questions I have (had) regarding the earlier post/reporting of the Fed report.
I would love to highlight one quote (yes, it is a partial quote and yes I am not trying to negate or disguise the meaning of the original, full quote), that we should all remember when we delve into thinking that we can just remove problem students and everything will be sunny and bright–they are still children with a right to an education too and if they continue to cause problems they will cost us far more as they grow up: “It is true that keeping the misbehaving child out of the classroom deprives him (and it’s usually a him) of learning opportunities”. I feel that we need to resurrect and create alternative avenues for these children, be it alternative school, vocational programs, or more intensive in-school AND out-of-school resources so we do not deprive one group at the advantage of another. Look into how much money long-term incarceration costs and factor in all of the other costs: police salaries and overtime, higher judicial case loads and larger judicial budgets, costly recidivism cycles, and more.
crankee_yankee
March 10th, 2012
10:14 pm
Nice to see research that suppports what we see in the schools everyday.
hssped
March 10th, 2012
11:07 pm
Finally!! I get so tired of the whining and complaining and the ACLU getting involved. I was actually investigated for writing an office referral for a black student (I was picking on him because he was black and I am white) and come to find out….I didn’t write up the kid. My Asian sub wrote him up and put my name on the form. Well…I sure hope someone felt like an idiot.
Back in the mid 90s, Clayton County used to send kids to Fort Gillem for a week in lieu of OSS. We would amend the IEPs of sped ed kids and they could go to. I don’t know why they stopped that program.
Whatever…I was tickled to read the above report and can’t wait to read the comments that are yet to come!
The Deal
March 10th, 2012
11:23 pm
I am all in favor of a well-advertised school where disciplinary problems are sent for 2 days, 6 days, or 2 months, depending on the offense. Kids should be well aware of it and scared of it, parents should be well aware of it, and teachers and principals should use it whenever it is needed. They owe it to the other kids in the class.
still love to teach...
March 10th, 2012
11:47 pm
Finally! I’m so tired of all the meetings preaching to us to use “positive interventions” that just do not work for some students. We are constantly told, “research shows….blah, blah, blah.” The kids are running the school; they know there are no consequences. I have mentioned this to our principal when we have our Class Keys conversation, but she does not want to hear it. We have to get discipline back into our schools. Now, I can point to this research! Love it! Dare I have hope that the tides are a-changing?
nick
March 11th, 2012
12:10 am
Here is the full essay.
http://www.econ.rochester.edu/people/Kinsler/jkinsler_suspensions.pdf
Interesting points:
1) Schools sacrifice X student(s) with disciple issues for the sake of school achievement as a whole
2) Schools establish the rules of engagement beforehand – IE X infraction = X consequence
3) Minority students are likely to have less of an achievement impact than whites who are suspended for X number of days b/c statistically they would have scored lower to start
4) School integration (bussing) would help even the discipline playing field as to spread around potential disciple violators
Two points you can’t quantify are parent involvement and teacher/administrator biases and prejudices; nonetheless, Dr. Kinsler touches upon ‘em with point three (…single parent homes…..) and the argument within the full essay to have set consequences for X infractions….this sounds good in theory; however, it takes away school flexibility….maybe this is needed??
I, too, will be interested in logical (not emotional and irrational) thoughts and comments.
Brandy
March 11th, 2012
1:48 am
Thanks, Nick!
I had a feeling the conclusion/solution mentioned was somewhere in this research…Hmm, time to do more research myself.
Dr. Craig Spinks/Georgians for Educational Excellence
March 11th, 2012
3:16 am
Some basic figuring: If 97 out of every 100 Black and Hispanic kids complete a school year without being suspended or expelled, while 99 out of every 100 White kids do so, Black and Hispanic kids are three times more likely than Whites to be suspended or expelled.
Beverly Fraud
March 11th, 2012
5:41 am
“Kinsler’s work also shows that high-risk kids behave better under a harsh discipline regime.”
Firm, CONSISTENT consequences in a STRUCTURED environment.
Who knew?
Apparently works MUCH better than ERASERS.
Beverly Fraud
March 11th, 2012
5:47 am
Maybe the most shocking thing about this post is the title:
‘Counterintuitive logic about discipline and achievement gap’
Why in the world would ANYBODY call this ANYTHING but COMMON SENSE?
Counter-intuitive? I guess common sense really ISN’T that common.
Chaos
March 11th, 2012
6:29 am
An entire class has a far greater chance of success if discipline problems and distractions are held to a minimum. Clear, consistent rules that are adhered to benefit all involved. Nice to see some research that backs it up.
@Beverly – it is far too early in the morning for your all caps typing. People will take you more seriously when you stop with the cyber-rants. Just sayin’
Beverly Fraud
March 11th, 2012
7:21 am
@Beverly – it is far too early in the morning for your all caps typing. People will take you more seriously when you stop with the cyber-rants. Just sayin’
Maureen, is there an ITALICS function on this blog?
Still, the POINT made has OBVIOUSLY been taken seriously by SERIOUS guys such as Vigdor and Kinsler
mom3boys
March 11th, 2012
7:23 am
I have a great idea for the kids who choose to misbehave: online schools. Forget the alternative school…they all seem to have the technology (ok, a few don’t), so why not suspend them to an online program. If they truly care about missing school (ha!), let them prove it by completing the online program. Shoot, as much of a headache as these frequent fliers are, we teachers might even chip in for a computer for them!
Reasonable and Rational
March 11th, 2012
7:37 am
This is a reasonable and rational piece. Chronically disruptive students need to be removed to an in-school suspension situation as they were in my high school. The chronically disruptive student was required to study alone in a room with just he or she with their books, an assignment and a coach or teacher. It worked.
Thank you, Maureen, for this insightful look at WHY black students are punished more often white students — The reason is that predominantly black schools are harsher on all students. You might think this is racist, but Kinsler’s work shows that black and white principals alike are tougher on kids in predominantly black schools” because “racial economic inequality, these schools tend to have a higher proportion of high-risk kids — the ones who grow up in tough circumstances.”
It’s reasonable, rational and accurate.
Good Job Get Schooled
Good Mom
carlosgvv
March 11th, 2012
7:46 am
If a large school has blacks, whites and hispanics, and if the black and hispanic students are more likely to be suspended than whites, the liberal knee-jerk reaction is to look for racism. It is not politically correct to say that black and hispanics are simply more likely to misbehave. Instead, the convoluted statements are issued and then the social experiments begin.
cris
March 11th, 2012
7:53 am
I don’t know about any other district than my own, but students who are suspended may request the classwork that they are missing while they are suspended….the percentage who actually follow through is very low. Discipline is huge – when you have extremely disruptive students and you have to follow a very long, scripted paperwork-supported protocol (IEP) to get them out of the classroom the students who care about getting an education become more angry than I do at times. They don’t know and honestly don’t care about the disruptive students right to an education – they just know that THEIR right to an education is being infringed upon!
Pardon My Blog
March 11th, 2012
8:04 am
Sadly, a lot of the students who misbehave want to be suspended because they know there will be no punishment at home. Suspension should be miserable for the student with boot camp type discipline and additional homework requirements.
bootney farnsworth
March 11th, 2012
8:26 am
damn. someone just discovered water is wet.
fact: disipline problems @ home = disipline problems @ school
fact: single parent homes = higher level of disipline problems @ home
fact: add in low income, it gets worse
fact: black & hispanic kids are the highest % of poor, single parent homes.
fact: bad behavior is not “racist”
fact: punishing bad behavior is not “racist”
bootney farnsworth
March 11th, 2012
8:32 am
what exactly is “counterintuitive” about this
Common Sense
March 11th, 2012
8:36 am
Common Sense today is Uncommon. This makes too much sense for it to be implemented. There are too many people who make their living by the race card and use statistics for their own agenda. Figures lie and liars figure is the quote that comes to mind.
Common Sense
March 11th, 2012
8:44 am
There are a lot of followers in school. When one child disrupts a class, all children are watching to see what happens. If nothing happens or the perception is that nothing happened, another will do as he or she wants. Soon you have several who are disrupting the learning and it will spiral out of control. When there are no consequences at home or in school, students refuse to do assignments, talk and some will blatantly challenge the teacher who is trying to teach those willing to learn. As pointed out, this means the children are running the show and time devoted to classroom management becomes the largest consumer of the instructional time.
I have students who blatantly refuse to do the assignment. I contact parents and they say they are concerned, but after several calls and conferences nothing changes. Some of these will sit quietly and not disturb others, but most begin talking and distracting others from their work.
This is the single most important issue facing the classroom teacher today and what has made their job harder every year.
Michelle-Middle School
March 11th, 2012
8:51 am
COMMON SENSE! FINALLY!
As a 20+ year teacher, I absolutely agree with this article. I am so tired of the insinuation that schools are “racist” because of their disciplinary system. I know emphatically that my school is not racist. The truth to the issue is that more Hispanic and black students misbehave. The only way this problem is going to be solved is by changing the society, a task this country is incapable of accomplishing because of our demand to be politically correct. If a student is disturbing other students who genuinely want to learn, they should go—–regardless of race or any other attribute.
Dekalb taxpayer
March 11th, 2012
8:59 am
I don’t know if Maureen is responsible for the headline, but I agree (as usual) with Beverly & Bootney that this thinking is counterintuitive only in a world where up has truly become down and vice versa.
Ron F.
March 11th, 2012
8:59 am
“fact: single parent homes = higher level of disipline problems @ home”
Careful bootney….I’m a single parent and my two so do NOT fit that descriptor. The issue isn’t the number or gender of parent at home as much as it is the age, education level, and economic status of that parent. I have numerous friends who, for various reasons, are single parents and their kids are at the top of the achievement scale, as are my own. This is exactly what worries me about data like this: it’s too easy to point at single parents and say they’re to blame. In my experience as a teacher, committed, determined parents come in many forms and numbers. I teach in a high poverty district and many of our most difficult children come from two parent homes.
While the data above isn’t surprising, it still doesn’t solve the problem of what we do with the kids. By choice I teach classes of “at-risk” kids, and there are a few every year who end up in the alternative school or dropping out. They’re smart, they’re talented in ways we don’t always see when we’re processing the paperwork, and we don’t have the resources to really help them. If we just kick them out into the world, the next stop is prison, so what do we do? I agree they need to be somewhere other than where they’re causing the disruption, but where is that?
I’ve spent a lot of years studying and trying to understand the troubled kids I see so many of each year. One thing that always helps me is to understand the impact of poverty on children. Their perception of school and their response to discipline is fundamentally different and it is a challenge for many of them to understand the codes of middle-class behavior required of them. My discipline numbers tend to refute the research because I deal with these kids differently. They behave, they learn, and I love every minute with them.
Jayne
March 11th, 2012
9:02 am
The notion that these conclusions are somehow “counterintuititve” is amazing. It says a great deal about Maureen and her perspective that these conclusions would not be “obvious”.
Homeschooler
March 11th, 2012
9:11 am
I have a question about “more Hispanic and black students misbehaving”. Is this true of mostly middle and high school children or younger children too? I am around a lot of children and always find the Hispanic children to be very well behaved. When I talk to most of them about school they light up and tell me all about their teachers and what they learn. They seem to absolutely love school. I know there are problems with hispanic gangs and in any of your lower socio-economic areas we are going to lose a lot of these kids by the time they are in high school. Just wondered, from a teacher’s perspective, if the hispanic kids are that much of a problem (even in elementary school)
Also, although I’m not a teacher, I have found that often children seem to misbehave in school because the discipline is not nearly as strict as at home. This seems to be more often with black children. (again I’m talking about mostly younger children). Some of these kids are so afraid to step out of line at home, they go crazy once they get to school. Wish I had a dime for every parent who tells me “I have no problems with him at home”. (and you can see the switch or the belt sitting in the corner of the room). This goes back to my belief that there is a difference between a child who is taught self control rather than taught to be controlled. Our schools will never be able (and should never be able) to discipline the way some of these parents do. How can you expect Johnny to be scared of standing in a corner when, at home he gets whacked every time he steps out of line? I see this with all races, but mostly black, lower class families.
Mama Gee
March 11th, 2012
9:24 am
Case in point: http://www.newtoncitizen.com/news/2012/mar/09/student-allegedly-attacked-in-alcovy-classroom/
SAWB
March 11th, 2012
9:27 am
In yesterday’s Wall Street Journal, J. L. Riley (a member of the paper’s editorial board), had
a brief write-up entitled “What About the Kids Who Behave?” in response
to this study. He claimed that white kids are disciplined at higher rates than Asian kids, and
asked the question–is the school system anti-white, too? I think his point is that
behavior is largely learned at home, and often reflects the cultural attitude towards
education and authority. We have many students–and parents–who have no respect for either.
NW GA Math/Science Teacher
March 11th, 2012
9:30 am
I’m glad to hear a majority of agreement with this blog.
But, Ron’s gonna get me on my soap box! Sounds to me like you’re saying “Oh, the poor little ____ children.” Right now that blank is “poor”, but it might have been “black” recently or “Irish” some time before that. Quit pitying and expect something from them (us)! Thanks, Ms. Ingle, for doing that with me so long ago…
Maureen Downey
March 11th, 2012
9:30 am
@DeKalb, In this case, I used a headline that the author of the piece wrote.
Maureen
KIM
March 11th, 2012
9:31 am
@mom3boys–I think your idea of doing on line schooling for suspended students is excellent. Schools are increasing their on line course offerings and this is a logical positive byproduct. The argument against it will be that more problematic students will be home unsupervised, otherwise ensuring an adult were home with them would make a hardship on the parent. But it is an excellent solution.
I am gratefful, Maureen, for a researcher’s work that supports what so many of the educators who blog here feel: high expectations in the classroom should be equal for all students. Sometimes I think the educators have more confidence that all students can be attentive than some people believe. When a community activist (Gwinnett SToPP) thinks standards and consequences for minority students should be lower (although the organization does not word it that way) than for the majority they actually are saying minority students cannot rise to the standard. I do not agree that they can’t. I have taught too many who went on to outstanding universities and are successful in their careers. Did they come from perfect family background? No. But neither did many of my majority students. It is individual–and those who allow the loving, caring teachers to influence them more than their background become the winners. They change the generational poverty cycle and have the ability and impetus to sustain that change.
Maureen Downey
March 11th, 2012
9:37 am
@jayne, Says nothing about me. The writer of the piece provided the headline for the piece. We often use the headlines that the actual writers provide so we don’t misinterpret their points of view.
Maureen
Homeschooler
March 11th, 2012
9:38 am
@NW GA. Ron is one of the few is willing to work with and reach these kids rather than throwing them away. You can have high expectations of children without expecting that they all fit a perfect mold. I applaud him. He said he doesn’t think these kids should be disrupting the other students. Why not find people like him who might make a difference.
Ron F.
March 11th, 2012
9:42 am
@NW GA: “Quit pitying and expect something from them (us)! ”
If you came into my classroom, you’d see HIGH expectations, communicated calmly, consistently, and kids who rise to the expectations, most of the time. I don’t pity them, EVER! But I also don’t play the “follow my rules or else” card. I find that if you set up the probability of conflict, they’ll go there. They know I want them to succeed and why it’s important for them to try, and they know I want to understand their perspective. We have many very calm, very informative discussions about why we have the rules we have and I supportively reinforce their adherence. I don’t lump them into categories, subgroups, or numbers. I’ve learned a LOT about how they think and why they react the way they do just by getting to know them and their experiences and how they think. It becomes a point of entry to begin scaffolding interactions and experiences that help them understand WHY they need to behave differently in order to be treated better in the world. They’re kids- flaws, misconceptions, and bad life circumstances and all. For some reason it works for me, and I’m not trying to tell anyone what to do. Just food for thought.
Ron F.
March 11th, 2012
9:53 am
@NW GA: if you read what I posted earlier, I’m in no way saying we have to tolerate or keep kids in the classroom who choose to disrupt. Their presence and behavior can be a very big problem. I’ve had kids like that and had to let them suffer consequences for their choices. There are, and always will be, some who just can’t be helped. I just don’t want to see data like this used as an excuse for giving up on them too soon. Call me a “bleeding-heart”- I know I am!
But I can point to, and often see about town, the kids I’ve taught over the years who are trying their best to be good people as adults who were textbook stats for such a study as Kinsler’s, and I can’t help but think where they would be if we had given up on them. I can also point to some who ended up in the prison system- and I can say we tried just as hard.
Hey Teacher
March 11th, 2012
11:50 am
Great article — discipline continues to be the most challenging aspect of my job. Part of the problem is that in this era of budget cuts, we have lost some wonderful alternative programs that used to serve our at-risk population. Summer school and night school were both all but eliminated in my district along with other boot-camp type programs. We need options — just like every kid isn’t fit for college, not every kid can sit in a desk for 7 hours all day long either.
d
March 11th, 2012
12:00 pm
I’ve had more than one parent (sadly) ask me “are my kids behaving?” My response is always the same, “Do you give them a choice?” Every last one of them look at me as if I’ve just asked them to solve a calculus problem. I really do believe that today’s parents are lost. There’s so much “help” and “advice” being doled out about parenting that they’re all utterly lost. If you try to use old fashioned discipline then one group tells them they’re out of touch and being too harsh. If they try to reason with their children another group says they’re too soft and creating wimps. Parents have no one left to turn to anymore because everybody’s an expert, but they’re all saying something different. Even teachers can’t agree. I say return to the values that my grandparents and parents held as sacrosanct, but then new age groups come out against it. It’s no wonder that kids are all screwed up.
Maureen Downey
March 11th, 2012
12:12 pm
@d, Great comment and great question for inquiring parents. Would love for you to expand it into an op-ed piece for the AJC.
If interested, please email me at mdowney@ajc.com
Thanks, Maureen
Tony
March 11th, 2012
1:29 pm
The data on school discipline will be used to generate a knee jerk reaction just as all other data are used. Vigder and Kinsler are both on the mark for the negative impact such knee-jerk rules from on high will have on our schools. The philosophy behind highlighting “disproportionality” almost always overlooks the true causes of the effect being examined. In this case, certain groups are punished more than other groups and therefore the punishment must be out of line. I hope policy makers are very careful and consider opinions like those presented today.
ssteacher
March 11th, 2012
1:31 pm
Probably above the reading level of most commenters here, but Vigdor, et. al. just continue the belief that children are not of equal value when compared to adults.
Thought provoking work by Young-Bruehl in a newly published, highly researched book – Childism: confronting prejudice against children. http://www.amazon.com/Childism-Confronting-Prejudice-Against-Children/dp/0300173113
Full disclosure: I have nothing to do with this work, and receive nothing for making others aware of its existence.
Shar
March 11th, 2012
1:35 pm
@mom3boys – Brilliant!
At-home suspension not only punishes the offender, the parent must deal with the consequences of bad behavior (and see it first-hand) as well. This puts the onus on changing behavior where it belongs -with the parent.
Students could be required to complete certain work online before being allowed back in the classroom, and parents would be forced into the position of monitoring work – and dealing with resistance.
Shar
March 11th, 2012
1:41 pm
@d – All three of my children, and most particularly my meteoric middle child, informed me that I was irrational, too strict and ruining their lives and, of course, that Every One Else had parents that let them do whatever the thing was that I was prohibiting. My response, too, was always the same: Thanks for the information, but what does that have to do with you?
With my kids all in their early 20’s, I am now being informed that I was far too lenient. It’s very interesting to see the attitudinal change once kids are forced to create structure for their own lives instead of having some outside authority to fight against and blame.
Ron F.
March 11th, 2012
1:55 pm
Shar- therein lies the problem. I’ve watched far too many parents give in the “every one else” pressure. I’ve also noticed that after mine stomp off and slam a door and I don’t dignify their childish response, they get over it. I’ve also noticed in my classroom that if you ask kids, their suggestions about rules and consequences tend to be much tougher than many teachers would come up with. Isn’t it fun to be at the point where your kids are finally realizing you aren’t crazy and that you just might be right sometimes? I’m living for that day…
Long time educator
March 11th, 2012
2:04 pm
Yes, yes, yes!! This is a great article!
If you read this blog over time, you would see that the recurring theme from the veteran educators about the problems in education center around parental values, not income and not race. Poor non-English speaking immigrants who teach their children discipline and value education have children who succeed in the public school system. Regardless of race or economic status, parents who do not value education and do not expect their children to respect or obey authority figures, will have children who are unsuccessful in public school. IT IS THAT SIMPLE. Just cut and past this into any topic about student discipline or academic achievement. It applies to them all. The better question is: if this premise is true, what can you do about it that would make a difference to the kids unfortunately born into these “homes”? Alternative school is a possible solution. Online at home suspension, while satisfying to the teacher, will not work because the parent is the problem to begin with. If we as society are willing to take on the responsibility of educating the children of unfit parents, we must find a way to do it without the parent’s help. If we are not willing, and this is a big IF, we need to stop compulsory attendance and make going to school a priviledge. There are arguments for both points of view, but we need to quit expecting unfit parents to step up to the plate if they have not already done so, and address the problem headon.
Brandy
March 11th, 2012
3:36 pm
In response to several commentators who suggested online work for suspended students
A friend told me about something that happened this week at her school. She works in a high SES population, East Cobb, middle school known for its high achievement levels and parental involvement. Another teacher suggested to her class that students needed to visit X website to complete an assignment over the weekend. A very embarrassed looking, white, student had to raise her hand and admit that she “no longer had internet at home”. The teacher responded that she could use the school library computers on Monday if she came early. The child then had to explain that her mother had to take a second job and could no longer drive her to and from school, she had to take the bus which would not bring her to school in time to complete the assignment. The teacher was at a loss as to a proper response, but another student replied that he had the same problem and had to go to the library on Saturdays and use their computers, but that the girl should plan to spend a long time waiting for a computer.
Ok, no soapbox here, but please remember that not all students have internet and computers at home, even on the “right side of the tracks”.
Andy Wilburn
March 11th, 2012
4:48 pm
Education is the only profession where if you don’t do your job you get to keep your job…..we need a whole new crop of HONEST, HARD WARKING, TEACHERS
BC
March 11th, 2012
5:00 pm
The Chinese have a proverb for this…one must die so the rest can live!
Ron F.
March 11th, 2012
6:33 pm
“Education is the only profession where if you don’t do your job you get to keep your job…..we need a whole new crop of HONEST, HARD WARKING, TEACHERS”
Andy: why not be the first in line then? Take a day, visit a few schools (vary the area and economic status of the neighborhood), and then come tell me how many non-hard working teachers you see. You might find a few, I’ll give you that. But I can assure you the ill-informed words you posted would be quickly retracted. There are a lot of us out there working hard.
Beverly Fraud
March 11th, 2012
7:20 pm
we need a whole new crop of HONEST, HARD WARKING, TEACHERS”
Wasn’t someone just reprimanded for showing pictures of themselves hard warking on Facebook?
Soccermom
March 11th, 2012
7:40 pm
@D – As a parent, I learned a long time ago that, if you don’t want them to have a choice, don’t offer them a choice!
Andy Wilburn
March 11th, 2012
8:35 pm
I am not saying teachers don’t do anything; however, it seems as though the highest paid teachers are the ones doing the least amount of work and getting the worst results.
High school administrator
March 11th, 2012
9:15 pm
Hey Wilburn, get a clue! Have you ever spent time in a classroom teaching? If the answer is no then please shut up. Back to the blog. It is unfortunate that black students get suspended more often. It is also unfortunate that they misbehave more often, but it is a fact. While we never want to give up on any child, we do not have many options in public education, therefore they end up eventually getting kicked out or dropping out. I find this to be more of a problem with students who are less affluent, for the most part. The question is can we as a society continue to let this problem go unaddressed because of “politically correctness.” We really need to have an ongoing substantive dialogue about this, and develop workable solutions. If discipline is not addressed in schools it will continue to fester like a cancer until our entire public educational system becomes useless. Can anyone say Charter schools.
Ron F.
March 11th, 2012
9:17 pm
Andy, I’d caution against believing such a sweeping generalization. Many teachers get advanced degrees to get a higher pay grade and actually use their degrees. Some don’t use them well, but it’s hard to get away with that now. In fact, the state doesn’t pay for advanced degrees any longer unless it’s in a field you’re acutally teaching. I’ll also tell you that our pay tops out at 21 years and you don’t get anything else but cost of living adjustments after that. An advanced degree becomes one of the only pay increases you can get after that point. Of course, between furloughs and insurance increases, I’m bringing home significantly less than I was five years ago. Good thing I love my job!!
Mikey D
March 11th, 2012
11:27 pm
Andy:
What statistics do you have to back up your claim that the highest paid teachers are doing the least amount of work and getting the worst results? Is that statement based on anything other than a preconceived notion and/or ideological belief? Please enlighten us about where you are getting your facts.
Andy Wilburn
March 12th, 2012
3:01 am
I know Teachers in Dekalb county are paid higher than teachers in Augusta who have higher test scores and more command of the class room
MikeyD
March 12th, 2012
8:13 am
Andy:
Are you saying that the only variable between students in Augusta and students in Dekalb is the teacher? Are you honestly that naive?
Ron F.
March 12th, 2012
10:38 am
Andy- the disparity in pay is due to local pay supplements. In Dekalb, there is a higher local supplement than in Augusta. I left Clayton county and my supplement was cut by over half, resulting in about a 10% pay cut. The state pays a base salary and local systems supplement- usually between 5-10%
Warrior Woman
March 12th, 2012
11:13 am
@NWGA Math/Science Teacher – AMEN!!! As a student raised in poverty that went on to become both highly educated and successful in my chosen career, I thank God for the teachers I had that refused to engage in the tyranny of low expectations just because I was poor, along with my mom for instilling high expectations for academic performance. My mother, Ms. Mitchell, and Mr. Carden will forever be one of my heros because they refused to accept less than what they saw I was capable of doing.
Dr. John Trotter
March 12th, 2012
1:52 pm
Maureen, the only problem I have with this article is your assertion that this notion is “counterintuitive.” Isn’t this what I (and others on this blog like Beverly Fraud and Bootney) have been saying forever? MACE has not changed its mantra since the very first publication in 1995 wherein we stated: You cannot have good learning conditions until you first have good teaching conditions.
The key to good teaching conditions is classroom discipline, and you cannot establish and maintain classroom discipline without the support from the administration (and the students know this). You first have to establish discipline BEFORE (hey, Beverly Fraud, how do you like my caps? Ha!) you can establish academic achievement. I remember helping State Representative Darryl Jordan (an educator) in his campaign for the school board in 1996, a campaign in which he barely was defeated but later decidedly defeated a long-time incumbent in the State House. On his signs (and they were beautiful!), we had this slogan, “Discipline & Achievement!” But, note that discipline came first.
If you make your goal academic achievement without any regard for classroom discipline (as is the case among the educrats today), then you will not achieve academic achievement, unless, of course, you are at a school where the students come from strong, pro-education, pro-support-the-teacher homes. In other words , the students already exhibit self-discipline. But, when you are dealing with students from drug-infested neighborhoods, dysfunctional homes, and surrounded by violence, then these students (and I use “students” loosely) bring to school very little or no motivation to learn and exhibit strong anti-social behaviors which are very disruptive to the learning environment. The first thing that you have to do is get their attention. You have to establish structure and then be consistent and fair. The students have a strong sense of fairness.
I was just thinking this morning (before I saw this thread on a friend’s wall on Facebook) that you can be very strict with children at school as long as they know that you are not a hard a_s. If you have a heart and a sense of humor, they will like you despite you being strict. They will just think that you are “crazy.” They all use to think that I was crazy, but I have never met a student that I couldn’t get along with, even if I had to initially paddle the student, assign him several days of strict Detention Hall (not this social gathering that they have now), place him in In-school Suspension, or send him home for a couple of weeks. I have what I think are some amazing stories about some kids whom I initially had to be very tough on who eventually turned around their lives and came back to tell me that they appreciate how tough I was on them.
I am glad folks may be coming around to the reality that without discipline in place, no academic achievement will occur and, yes, the much-ballyhooed “achievement gap” will get wider and wider. We have indeed been saying this for nearly 35 years, and this concept was one of the bedrock principles when we founded MACE in 1995.
http://www.theteachersadvocate.com
http://www.georgiateachersspeakout.com
Andy Wilburn
March 12th, 2012
4:51 pm
I agree with Trotter we have to improve education in the class room on the local level. Please don’t tell me to shut up because “I don’t teach”. I deal with products drone the public school system everyday. The failure of public education in preparing our young adults is one of the reasons this state is in the shape it’s in. I think Trotter is on to something we have to get kids under control wether they like it or not so they can learn and so everyone else can learn. This all starts with teachers controlling the class room and bring firm and fare with kids.
High school administrator
March 12th, 2012
7:45 pm
Dr. Trotter, I agree with you 100 percent. I have been an educator for 26 years. I have always maintained that you cannot teach until you have control of the classroom. Unfortunately for many teachers this is easier said than done. The reasons vary from non support from administrators to no support from parents to just incompetence on the part of the teacher. I still maintain that Wilburn needs to shut up because he does not have a clue how hard it is being an educator. I would not dare to criticize someone if I did not have all of the facts. I am a no nonsense administrator who loves my kids and supports my teachers. I hate what education is becoming because of politics, poor parenting, and incompetent central office and school board members who often have their own agendas. The kids are suffering and I am not optimistic about the future.
NW GA Math/Science Teacher
March 12th, 2012
8:19 pm
@Ron I’d actually be interested to hear what your classroom rules end up being. I’d bet we’re not very far apart on them and wouldn’t be surprised if mine are even more relaxed than yours. To me, the point isn’t about the rules set. It’s about the mind-set. I think I probably over use this, but you’ll please understand that it was quite formative for me: The Navy didn’t really care where we came from or what we experienced or thought before we got there. They didn’t care what color we were (”dark blue or light blue”), They didn’t care what kind of economic background we came from. We all had the same standards to come up to – in a hurry!
Sharon
March 12th, 2012
8:42 pm
There are numerous studies that do NOT support Professor Jacob Vigdor, including an article by the National Association of School Psychologists http://www.nasponline.org/communications/spawareness/effdiscipfs.pdf
PUNISH-BASED DISCIPLINE DOES NOT IMPROVE SCHOOL SAFETY, LEARNING OR BEHAVIOR
Zero tolerance policies as usually implemented:
• Do not increase school safety.
• Rely too heavily on suspension and expulsion, practices that neither improve school climate nor address the source of student alienation.
• Are related to a number of negative consequences, including increased rates of school drop out and discriminatory application of school discipline.
• Negatively impact minority students and students with disabilities to a greater degree than other students—studies have shown that these students constitute a disproportionately large percentage of expulsions and suspensions.
• Restrict access to appropriate education, often exacerbating the problems of students with disabilities and achievement difficulties, and thereby increasing the probability that these students will not complete high school.
GEORGIA RANKS 47 IN GRADUATION RATES and NUMBER ONE IN INCARCERATION
Think there might be a connection???
Dekalbite
March 13th, 2012
11:46 am
The federal report on Black students being more harshly disciplined than White students had some Important data that was flawed- eg. APS teachers being paid an average of $94,000 a year and only 5% of the teachers being in their first year of teaching – that were easily verifiable if the researchers had taken the time to verify their figures.
When important pieces of data like these are incorrect, it calls into question ALL of the data. When readers find flaws in some of the important data, they cannot trust the rest of the data and therefore cannot rely on the conclusions. The question was an important one – is discipline for White students the same as for Black students. Unfortunately, this study was useless since we cannot trust the data.
This a very big problem in education – a lack of serious peer review and questionable ways and agreement on capturing the data. Very few “educrats” understand the need for stringent data capture. “Facts” are not verified and later turn out not to be “facts” at all which leads to a lack public faith in the conclusions.
“Research” is not really research if the data gathering is is sloppy, the data can be show to be false, and there are no checks and balances such as rigorous peer review.
Once important data in a study is shown to be false, it’s pointless to debate the conclusions.
Maureen Downey
March 13th, 2012
11:54 am
#Dekalb, I have talked to the feds, who stand by their APS salary figure, saying it reflects “federal funds” that are contributed to teacher salaries. In our last chat, I asked for a statement showing how they came up with the $94,000. Still waiting for them to clarify that statement.
Maureen
Dekalbite
March 13th, 2012
2:40 pm
Many thanks Maureen. It will be interesting to see if the federal researchers checked to ensure their data is correct and what they tell you is included in their figures. It will be interesting to see if they even respond to you.
We should be ALL be interested in those “federal funds” supposedly ending up in Teacher compensation. The public is drawing conclusions on the value of teachers with respect to their compensation as contrasted with student achievement. That is one of the MAIN engines driving compensation for teachers – are they over compensated or under compensated for the value they bring to student achievement? Completely new methods of Teacher Compensation are being developed based on reported Teacher Compensation figures. We are told that Teacher Compensation is the holy grail for student achievement.
Were these federal funds actually reflected in teacher’s paychecks and benefits or was this part of a general overhead figure that could be and was spent by APS in another area but coded like it was teacher compensation? Or – was this federal money that was supposed to allocated for teacher’s salaries or benefits, but instead was spent by APS in other areas? Is the federal government placing federal funds spent for books for students and salaries for paraprofessionals in the category of “Teacher Compensation”? For example, should teachers have books for students to be listed as part of their compensation?
If you look at the ACTUAL Atlanta Public Schools expenditures from federal funding in 2010, you will see that less than $9,000,000 was spent on Teacher Salary and Benefits out of around $60,000,000 in total federal funding. $9,000,000 divided by 3,700 APS teachers means that the “federal funding” that APS got that actually made it to Teacher Compensation was around $2,400 per teacher. And that is assuming that this $9,000,000 was not already calculated in the average APS Teacher Compensation listed on the Georgia DOE site or the figure APS gave you. So where is the $10,000 to $13,000 discrepancy?
http://www.open.georgia.gov/
Other Expenditure Information>Payments>choose 2010, LEA, Atlanta Independent School System, Federal
Where is the raw data for both APS and the federal government on Teacher Compensation and how was it analyzed? You can’t have 3 completely different conclusions on teacher compensation ostensibly coming from the same source – the APS finance department – and have a common and clear handle on teacher compensation. If tutoring for students, books, paraprofessionals, support and admin supplements, etc. are added into the APS Federal or School System Teacher Compensation figures, then clearly this is not a true picture of Teacher Compensation.
Publishing conflicting and therefore misleading data regarding teacher compensation skews the public sentiment and response to political plans for teacher compensation. Basing a new Teacher Compensation program on conflicting and misleading data is not fair for teachers and greatly lessens the probability of meeting the goal of increased student achievement.
ams08
March 14th, 2012
8:54 am
Consistent consequences and discipline are 75% of what is necessary in a classroom in order for a teacher to do his or her job. Our society spends so much time criticizing those in the teaching profession, but so little time instilling a work ethic and an appropriate standard of behavior in our children. Perhaps, with more stringent, available disciplinary actions in schools for students that are infringing upon others’ right to learn, those so-called bad teachers would become good ones. Don’t misunderstand-I am not arguing that there are no bad teachers. There most certainly are. Just like there are also bad reporters, policemen, salespeople, etc. My argument is merely that if parents were sharing the burden of molding their kids’ work ethics and behavior standards rather than simply letting them go it alone, administrators, teachers, and schools in general could do more to promote a healthy, beneficial learning environment for the students that want to be there.
I read an article last week ( I wish I could remember where it was from) that quoted statistics that current parents of school aged children are more apt to let the children have the final say in major decisions (including bedtimes, playtimes, whether or not they were going to school that day, and even new car or house purchases). If children have the final say in such huge decisions at home, is it any surprise that they come to school and feel that they can behave however they want? Schools can do much to promote discipline, but when there are 25 kids per day lingering in ISS or when all OSS work is excused and can be made up at a later date, what consequences can reasonably be assessed from that? The ground work must be laid at home, with parents.
Race is at the heart of this article, but many teachers will tell you (quietly and as they lean in close so they’re not overheard) that most of the problems in the classroom stem from a lack of motivation or consequences in a student’s home life. We cannot expect students who have behavioral freedom at home to come to school and suddenly obey all the rules. Nor can we expect a student who has parents that don’t even know if he or she is attending school each day to instill a work ethic and a drive to succeed.
@Longtimeeducator says it best:”Regardless of race or economic status, parents who do not value education and do not expect their children to respect or obey authority figures, will have children who are unsuccessful in public school.”