Counterintuitive logic about discipline and achievement gap
I wanted to share an op-ed from Jacob Vigdor, a professor in Duke University’s Sanford School of Public Policy and Department of Economics, on the federal discipline data that was released last week. This piece will run on the Monday education op-ed page.
By Jacob Vigdor
A recently released report has spawned new outrage over an old problem: Black and Hispanic students are more likely to be suspended from school than white students. The knee-jerk reaction to this finding is to think it unjust, reflective of lingering racism among school principals and disciplinarians, and no doubt a contributor to the achievement gap.
If you believe that, ask yourself if you also believe the following things:
1. There are many students — of all races — who walk the straight and narrow path without being prodded. There are also some, of all races, who cause trouble, but the threat of punishment keeps them in line at least to some extent.
2. The presence of disruptive students in a classroom makes it more difficult for other students to learn.
3. Students who grow up in tough circumstances — with a single parent in the household, or in a foster family — are probably at higher risk of acting out.
4. The average school principal — or, more precisely, the average principal in a predominantly black or Hispanic school — is probably unlikely to be a bigoted racist.
If statements one through four seem reasonable to you, then you should also believe the following: the school discipline gap does not exacerbate the test score gap. In fact, closing the school discipline gap would make the test score gap worse.
How do we move from statements one through four to that radical conclusion? The key is paying attention to the work of University of Rochester economist Joshua Kinsler, who has found evidence to support each of the four points. Here’s the logic that ties them together.
Blacks and whites who attend the same school, as it turns out, are not treated all that differently when they misbehave. Yet there is a school discipline gap. The reason is that predominantly black schools are harsher on all students. You might think this is racist, but Kinsler’s work shows that black and white principals alike are tougher on kids in predominantly black schools. That supports point 4.
Kinsler’s work further offers some insight into why harsh discipline is the name of the game in these schools. Because of racial economic inequality, these schools tend to have a higher proportion of high-risk kids — the ones who grow up in tough circumstances. That supports point 3.
Kinsler’s work also shows that high-risk kids behave better under a harsh discipline regime. So tough disciplinary standards are neither arbitrary nor capricious; they are a tool principals use rationally to manage potential behavior problems. That’s point 2.
Finally, Kinsler shows that removing a highly disruptive child from a classroom — by suspending that child, in- or out-of-school, helps the other children in the classroom focus on their studies. So that means principals aren’t just going after bad behavior. They want to create an environment where students can learn. It is true that keeping the misbehaving child out of the classroom deprives him (and it’s usually a him) of learning opportunities, but principals value the needs of the many above the needs of the one. And who can blame them. That’s point 1.
So consider what happens if we eliminate racial disparities in school punishment, for example, by banning suspensions. The whole system unravels. In the schools with few high-risk students, nothing much changes. In the more disadvantaged schools, behavior worsens, misbehaving students remain in their classroom and disrupt the learning of their classmates to a greater extent. Academic performance worsens in the disadvantaged school, but stays about the same in the more advantaged school. And just like that, the test score gap widens.
You may be skeptical of my rhetorical sleight of hand, but Kinsler’s work, published or accepted for publication in peer-reviewed journals, is based on sound data analysis.
Another way to think about it is this. Do you trust the principal in your child’s school? Do you think that person has the best interests of your child at heart? If so, why would you advocate removing a tool — a blunt one, to be sure, but a tool nonetheless — from the toolbox of strategies available to help all children reach their highest potential?
School administrators don’t always get things right; the honest ones will be the first to tell you that. But without strong evidence to the contrary, it is certainly reasonable to give them the benefit of the doubt.
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
Tell us what you think about the site
Customer Care »
Vacation stops, manage subscriptions and more
AJC Services
Sections
Other Editions
Visitor Agreement | Privacy Statement
© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
71 comments Add your comment
BC
March 11th, 2012
5:00 pm
The Chinese have a proverb for this…one must die so the rest can live!
Ron F.
March 11th, 2012
6:33 pm
“Education is the only profession where if you don’t do your job you get to keep your job…..we need a whole new crop of HONEST, HARD WARKING, TEACHERS”
Andy: why not be the first in line then? Take a day, visit a few schools (vary the area and economic status of the neighborhood), and then come tell me how many non-hard working teachers you see. You might find a few, I’ll give you that. But I can assure you the ill-informed words you posted would be quickly retracted. There are a lot of us out there working hard.
Beverly Fraud
March 11th, 2012
7:20 pm
we need a whole new crop of HONEST, HARD WARKING, TEACHERS”
Wasn’t someone just reprimanded for showing pictures of themselves hard warking on Facebook?
Soccermom
March 11th, 2012
7:40 pm
@D – As a parent, I learned a long time ago that, if you don’t want them to have a choice, don’t offer them a choice!
Andy Wilburn
March 11th, 2012
8:35 pm
I am not saying teachers don’t do anything; however, it seems as though the highest paid teachers are the ones doing the least amount of work and getting the worst results.
High school administrator
March 11th, 2012
9:15 pm
Hey Wilburn, get a clue! Have you ever spent time in a classroom teaching? If the answer is no then please shut up. Back to the blog. It is unfortunate that black students get suspended more often. It is also unfortunate that they misbehave more often, but it is a fact. While we never want to give up on any child, we do not have many options in public education, therefore they end up eventually getting kicked out or dropping out. I find this to be more of a problem with students who are less affluent, for the most part. The question is can we as a society continue to let this problem go unaddressed because of “politically correctness.” We really need to have an ongoing substantive dialogue about this, and develop workable solutions. If discipline is not addressed in schools it will continue to fester like a cancer until our entire public educational system becomes useless. Can anyone say Charter schools.
Ron F.
March 11th, 2012
9:17 pm
Andy, I’d caution against believing such a sweeping generalization. Many teachers get advanced degrees to get a higher pay grade and actually use their degrees. Some don’t use them well, but it’s hard to get away with that now. In fact, the state doesn’t pay for advanced degrees any longer unless it’s in a field you’re acutally teaching. I’ll also tell you that our pay tops out at 21 years and you don’t get anything else but cost of living adjustments after that. An advanced degree becomes one of the only pay increases you can get after that point. Of course, between furloughs and insurance increases, I’m bringing home significantly less than I was five years ago. Good thing I love my job!!
Mikey D
March 11th, 2012
11:27 pm
Andy:
What statistics do you have to back up your claim that the highest paid teachers are doing the least amount of work and getting the worst results? Is that statement based on anything other than a preconceived notion and/or ideological belief? Please enlighten us about where you are getting your facts.
Andy Wilburn
March 12th, 2012
3:01 am
I know Teachers in Dekalb county are paid higher than teachers in Augusta who have higher test scores and more command of the class room
MikeyD
March 12th, 2012
8:13 am
Andy:
Are you saying that the only variable between students in Augusta and students in Dekalb is the teacher? Are you honestly that naive?
Ron F.
March 12th, 2012
10:38 am
Andy- the disparity in pay is due to local pay supplements. In Dekalb, there is a higher local supplement than in Augusta. I left Clayton county and my supplement was cut by over half, resulting in about a 10% pay cut. The state pays a base salary and local systems supplement- usually between 5-10%
Warrior Woman
March 12th, 2012
11:13 am
@NWGA Math/Science Teacher – AMEN!!! As a student raised in poverty that went on to become both highly educated and successful in my chosen career, I thank God for the teachers I had that refused to engage in the tyranny of low expectations just because I was poor, along with my mom for instilling high expectations for academic performance. My mother, Ms. Mitchell, and Mr. Carden will forever be one of my heros because they refused to accept less than what they saw I was capable of doing.
Dr. John Trotter
March 12th, 2012
1:52 pm
Maureen, the only problem I have with this article is your assertion that this notion is “counterintuitive.” Isn’t this what I (and others on this blog like Beverly Fraud and Bootney) have been saying forever? MACE has not changed its mantra since the very first publication in 1995 wherein we stated: You cannot have good learning conditions until you first have good teaching conditions.
The key to good teaching conditions is classroom discipline, and you cannot establish and maintain classroom discipline without the support from the administration (and the students know this). You first have to establish discipline BEFORE (hey, Beverly Fraud, how do you like my caps? Ha!) you can establish academic achievement. I remember helping State Representative Darryl Jordan (an educator) in his campaign for the school board in 1996, a campaign in which he barely was defeated but later decidedly defeated a long-time incumbent in the State House. On his signs (and they were beautiful!), we had this slogan, “Discipline & Achievement!” But, note that discipline came first.
If you make your goal academic achievement without any regard for classroom discipline (as is the case among the educrats today), then you will not achieve academic achievement, unless, of course, you are at a school where the students come from strong, pro-education, pro-support-the-teacher homes. In other words , the students already exhibit self-discipline. But, when you are dealing with students from drug-infested neighborhoods, dysfunctional homes, and surrounded by violence, then these students (and I use “students” loosely) bring to school very little or no motivation to learn and exhibit strong anti-social behaviors which are very disruptive to the learning environment. The first thing that you have to do is get their attention. You have to establish structure and then be consistent and fair. The students have a strong sense of fairness.
I was just thinking this morning (before I saw this thread on a friend’s wall on Facebook) that you can be very strict with children at school as long as they know that you are not a hard a_s. If you have a heart and a sense of humor, they will like you despite you being strict. They will just think that you are “crazy.” They all use to think that I was crazy, but I have never met a student that I couldn’t get along with, even if I had to initially paddle the student, assign him several days of strict Detention Hall (not this social gathering that they have now), place him in In-school Suspension, or send him home for a couple of weeks. I have what I think are some amazing stories about some kids whom I initially had to be very tough on who eventually turned around their lives and came back to tell me that they appreciate how tough I was on them.
I am glad folks may be coming around to the reality that without discipline in place, no academic achievement will occur and, yes, the much-ballyhooed “achievement gap” will get wider and wider. We have indeed been saying this for nearly 35 years, and this concept was one of the bedrock principles when we founded MACE in 1995.
http://www.theteachersadvocate.com
http://www.georgiateachersspeakout.com
Andy Wilburn
March 12th, 2012
4:51 pm
I agree with Trotter we have to improve education in the class room on the local level. Please don’t tell me to shut up because “I don’t teach”. I deal with products drone the public school system everyday. The failure of public education in preparing our young adults is one of the reasons this state is in the shape it’s in. I think Trotter is on to something we have to get kids under control wether they like it or not so they can learn and so everyone else can learn. This all starts with teachers controlling the class room and bring firm and fare with kids.
High school administrator
March 12th, 2012
7:45 pm
Dr. Trotter, I agree with you 100 percent. I have been an educator for 26 years. I have always maintained that you cannot teach until you have control of the classroom. Unfortunately for many teachers this is easier said than done. The reasons vary from non support from administrators to no support from parents to just incompetence on the part of the teacher. I still maintain that Wilburn needs to shut up because he does not have a clue how hard it is being an educator. I would not dare to criticize someone if I did not have all of the facts. I am a no nonsense administrator who loves my kids and supports my teachers. I hate what education is becoming because of politics, poor parenting, and incompetent central office and school board members who often have their own agendas. The kids are suffering and I am not optimistic about the future.
NW GA Math/Science Teacher
March 12th, 2012
8:19 pm
@Ron I’d actually be interested to hear what your classroom rules end up being. I’d bet we’re not very far apart on them and wouldn’t be surprised if mine are even more relaxed than yours. To me, the point isn’t about the rules set. It’s about the mind-set. I think I probably over use this, but you’ll please understand that it was quite formative for me: The Navy didn’t really care where we came from or what we experienced or thought before we got there. They didn’t care what color we were (”dark blue or light blue”), They didn’t care what kind of economic background we came from. We all had the same standards to come up to – in a hurry!
Sharon
March 12th, 2012
8:42 pm
There are numerous studies that do NOT support Professor Jacob Vigdor, including an article by the National Association of School Psychologists http://www.nasponline.org/communications/spawareness/effdiscipfs.pdf
PUNISH-BASED DISCIPLINE DOES NOT IMPROVE SCHOOL SAFETY, LEARNING OR BEHAVIOR
Zero tolerance policies as usually implemented:
• Do not increase school safety.
• Rely too heavily on suspension and expulsion, practices that neither improve school climate nor address the source of student alienation.
• Are related to a number of negative consequences, including increased rates of school drop out and discriminatory application of school discipline.
• Negatively impact minority students and students with disabilities to a greater degree than other students—studies have shown that these students constitute a disproportionately large percentage of expulsions and suspensions.
• Restrict access to appropriate education, often exacerbating the problems of students with disabilities and achievement difficulties, and thereby increasing the probability that these students will not complete high school.
GEORGIA RANKS 47 IN GRADUATION RATES and NUMBER ONE IN INCARCERATION
Think there might be a connection???
Dekalbite
March 13th, 2012
11:46 am
The federal report on Black students being more harshly disciplined than White students had some Important data that was flawed- eg. APS teachers being paid an average of $94,000 a year and only 5% of the teachers being in their first year of teaching – that were easily verifiable if the researchers had taken the time to verify their figures.
When important pieces of data like these are incorrect, it calls into question ALL of the data. When readers find flaws in some of the important data, they cannot trust the rest of the data and therefore cannot rely on the conclusions. The question was an important one – is discipline for White students the same as for Black students. Unfortunately, this study was useless since we cannot trust the data.
This a very big problem in education – a lack of serious peer review and questionable ways and agreement on capturing the data. Very few “educrats” understand the need for stringent data capture. “Facts” are not verified and later turn out not to be “facts” at all which leads to a lack public faith in the conclusions.
“Research” is not really research if the data gathering is is sloppy, the data can be show to be false, and there are no checks and balances such as rigorous peer review.
Once important data in a study is shown to be false, it’s pointless to debate the conclusions.
Maureen Downey
March 13th, 2012
11:54 am
#Dekalb, I have talked to the feds, who stand by their APS salary figure, saying it reflects “federal funds” that are contributed to teacher salaries. In our last chat, I asked for a statement showing how they came up with the $94,000. Still waiting for them to clarify that statement.
Maureen
Dekalbite
March 13th, 2012
2:40 pm
Many thanks Maureen. It will be interesting to see if the federal researchers checked to ensure their data is correct and what they tell you is included in their figures. It will be interesting to see if they even respond to you.
We should be ALL be interested in those “federal funds” supposedly ending up in Teacher compensation. The public is drawing conclusions on the value of teachers with respect to their compensation as contrasted with student achievement. That is one of the MAIN engines driving compensation for teachers – are they over compensated or under compensated for the value they bring to student achievement? Completely new methods of Teacher Compensation are being developed based on reported Teacher Compensation figures. We are told that Teacher Compensation is the holy grail for student achievement.
Were these federal funds actually reflected in teacher’s paychecks and benefits or was this part of a general overhead figure that could be and was spent by APS in another area but coded like it was teacher compensation? Or – was this federal money that was supposed to allocated for teacher’s salaries or benefits, but instead was spent by APS in other areas? Is the federal government placing federal funds spent for books for students and salaries for paraprofessionals in the category of “Teacher Compensation”? For example, should teachers have books for students to be listed as part of their compensation?
If you look at the ACTUAL Atlanta Public Schools expenditures from federal funding in 2010, you will see that less than $9,000,000 was spent on Teacher Salary and Benefits out of around $60,000,000 in total federal funding. $9,000,000 divided by 3,700 APS teachers means that the “federal funding” that APS got that actually made it to Teacher Compensation was around $2,400 per teacher. And that is assuming that this $9,000,000 was not already calculated in the average APS Teacher Compensation listed on the Georgia DOE site or the figure APS gave you. So where is the $10,000 to $13,000 discrepancy?
http://www.open.georgia.gov/
Other Expenditure Information>Payments>choose 2010, LEA, Atlanta Independent School System, Federal
Where is the raw data for both APS and the federal government on Teacher Compensation and how was it analyzed? You can’t have 3 completely different conclusions on teacher compensation ostensibly coming from the same source – the APS finance department – and have a common and clear handle on teacher compensation. If tutoring for students, books, paraprofessionals, support and admin supplements, etc. are added into the APS Federal or School System Teacher Compensation figures, then clearly this is not a true picture of Teacher Compensation.
Publishing conflicting and therefore misleading data regarding teacher compensation skews the public sentiment and response to political plans for teacher compensation. Basing a new Teacher Compensation program on conflicting and misleading data is not fair for teachers and greatly lessens the probability of meeting the goal of increased student achievement.
ams08
March 14th, 2012
8:54 am
Consistent consequences and discipline are 75% of what is necessary in a classroom in order for a teacher to do his or her job. Our society spends so much time criticizing those in the teaching profession, but so little time instilling a work ethic and an appropriate standard of behavior in our children. Perhaps, with more stringent, available disciplinary actions in schools for students that are infringing upon others’ right to learn, those so-called bad teachers would become good ones. Don’t misunderstand-I am not arguing that there are no bad teachers. There most certainly are. Just like there are also bad reporters, policemen, salespeople, etc. My argument is merely that if parents were sharing the burden of molding their kids’ work ethics and behavior standards rather than simply letting them go it alone, administrators, teachers, and schools in general could do more to promote a healthy, beneficial learning environment for the students that want to be there.
I read an article last week ( I wish I could remember where it was from) that quoted statistics that current parents of school aged children are more apt to let the children have the final say in major decisions (including bedtimes, playtimes, whether or not they were going to school that day, and even new car or house purchases). If children have the final say in such huge decisions at home, is it any surprise that they come to school and feel that they can behave however they want? Schools can do much to promote discipline, but when there are 25 kids per day lingering in ISS or when all OSS work is excused and can be made up at a later date, what consequences can reasonably be assessed from that? The ground work must be laid at home, with parents.
Race is at the heart of this article, but many teachers will tell you (quietly and as they lean in close so they’re not overheard) that most of the problems in the classroom stem from a lack of motivation or consequences in a student’s home life. We cannot expect students who have behavioral freedom at home to come to school and suddenly obey all the rules. Nor can we expect a student who has parents that don’t even know if he or she is attending school each day to instill a work ethic and a drive to succeed.
@Longtimeeducator says it best:”Regardless of race or economic status, parents who do not value education and do not expect their children to respect or obey authority figures, will have children who are unsuccessful in public school.”