True or false? Georgia teachers highest paid in country

Since when are the words of politicians taken seriously?

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that’s some fuzzy math.

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What if the glich in GA’s education model is really the butchering it now gets from ilk like Judson Hill and Chip Rogers?

Being that these religious freaks are openly against public school, does that play a factor given their role in funding?

Ever heard of a successfull business being run by a CEO who wants it to fail?

Nah….it’s all the teachers fault

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Tony – I teach in a suburban district, and my gross salary on my 2011 taxes was 12% lower than in 2008. And that’s just for full-time teaching (no bonuses or extra-hours pay) while I moved up two steps on the schedule.

I’m curious about the cost-of-living calculations. Those are statewide, yes? COL in metro Atlanta would be significantly higher than in, say, Valdosta, which skews the analysis. Plus, I have family in both Dallas and Houston, and the COL is definitely higher here, despite TX purportedly being the same as GA.

Whatever the numbers mean, I’ll agree that although things might’ve been good when that data was tabulated, the income/benefits situation is deteriorating FAST for teachers here, and it won’t get better anytime soon. (Yes, I know we’re lucky to have jobs in this economy, but we don’t have to be thrilled by what I’ve said above.)

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Insurance costs are up, co-pays are up, deductibles are up, out-of-pocket numbers are up, coverage is less for our health insurance. Still furloughed, no raises since I don’t remember, no step increase. Add (or subtract) it all together and I am down over 10% since 2008. She is a cross-eyed, needle-nosed liar comfortable in her own filthy pronouncements. I will remember.

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more proof our elected officials are clinically insane

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Pensions in today’s economy are a thing of the past…except for government workers, who are about the only people who get them.

It’s difficult to take the complaining from teachers when the economy is in the tank and many people have no job at all…due to no fault of their own.

I have no benefits anymore, not even health insurance. I pay out of pocket for all of it including all the premiums and co-pays. I have no paid time off, zero. Pensions are a dream. in the future I will live on what i save — and I am one of the lucky ones because I actually have a job.

GA teachers, try working out here in the non-government employee world. You’ll realize just how good you have it.

Good Mother

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I also think that these “average” salaries include the salaries of administrators, thereby proving that the math is funny. If that is the average salary for teachers, those standing in front of students, I would like to know where those higher paid teachers work. It is not at my school.

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Oh my,

I will address this to the so called smartest man on the blog, Dr. Leon Spinks.

Dear Doctor, and we all know you’re not really a doctor, please tell all the nice taxpaying, frustrated parents who have to endure such a substandard public education for their children, what state provides a larger salary, better health insurance, more time off for paid personal and sick days, a better retirement salary, { like anyone cares what your wife thinks, the poor woman, } and please include cost of living for the state you wish to have taught in and collected your retirement from? You can use real estate prices and taxes for your comparison. I don’t wish to trouble you with anything to thought consuming.

As for the rest of you lazy incompetent whiners, how about you quit blogging and attempt to educate the children of the state you suck the financial living life out of every day you show up for what you call work? Get off the computer and give it a try! It will make your mama’s proud!

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catlady,

COL is up, a large % of working Americans don’t even have a work provided health care plan, and what is this dental insurance you speak of? P.S. the rest of us work for a smaller annual salary and work an additional 70 days a year. All the while you cannot even produce a product that can enter the workforce and earn enough to sustain your salary and benefit cost through the taxes they pay? The end is near.

As to the poor prof and his complaint, if you work the 30 and earn $50,000 your last 2 years the calculator says you can take a one time Plop payment of $93,000 and receive $2000.00 a month until you DIE!!! Or simply take the $2600.00 per month until you are dead. And remember your wonderful significant other also enjoys survivor benefits. But I’m certain they deserve it after listening to you cry poor me for their entire married lives. Go add up what you paid in over 30 years and come cry to us about what a raw deal you’re getting! And don’t forget to add in your Social Security check. You poor pathetic people. Complain much? Or is that all you ever do? Try teaching for a change!

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You said “You would think the metro teachers would be paid considerably more since the cost of living is so much higher in metro Atlanta, but that’s really not the case just sampling the salaries.”

Metro Atlanta teachers don’t live in the high tax areas nor do they pay the high cost of the housing — many of them commute in from a large home with low taxes and bring their child with them to teh school. My child’s teacher doesn’t live in my high tax bracket nor pays the high cost of housing here but she brings her children to school with her and enjoys teh benefit of not having to pay for the high costs of the school.

I would love to take my kid to work with me and leave to go home at 3 p.m. with my child in tow — and NOT have to pay for a nanny or other aftercare. That is also a benefit.

GM

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And before you haters tell me to go back if I don’t like it here, I have a very good position I love and a principal with integrity. Plus, I am VERY good at what I do – could go anywhere anytime, but despite the traffic, I really like the weather in ATL!

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SRY for the double post!

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Wow! This shocks me, as I only make aout $40K a year….

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Ummm… WHY am I waiting for MODERATION????!!!?!?! Grrrrr

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As Tony pointed out at 5:47, there was a time when Georgia teachers made some relative gains in compensation. That period ended around the year 2000. Teacher salary growth became stagnant long before the economic downturn of 2008.

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Our superintendent, overstaffed board of education employees (ridiculous) and high school coaches. YES!

Teachers? NO!

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http://www.erdc.wa.gov/faq/pdf/raq003_teacher_salary.pdf

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When I taught, my students learned. Never went home at 3:30. Went in early, stayed late, as did most of the teachers where I worked. Actually, retired because of the LONG hours. If anyone out there in education goes home at 3:30 EVERY
day, I’d like to apply for a job in your system.

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Teachers rallied against Roy Barnes because he was going to make them earn their raises. Well, how did that work out for you? About as well as the folk who rallied against Roy Barnes because he wanted to change the old racist state flag. Ha ha ha ha ha. The people of Georgia are fools.

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If you notice that the main reason they say we are to top paid is the benefits package – the way the state has been raiding the retirement funds of the police and fire departments – do you really think that they are going to leave the teacher’s retirement alone? I am doing just like many in “the real world” (I would like to know what world I am in if it is not the real one) and putting money in personal retirement funds because I firmly believe that what I am contributing to the stated fund will not be there when it is time for me to retire – forget the matching money that the state puts in – I am talking about what is deducted from my supposedly “top” salary paycheck.

I will also state that both of my parents and my mother-in-law (my father in law as well before he died) had a much better retirement package than I will ever see and only two of them held degrees.

If you want to talk about sweet benefits – go look at some of the skilled and unskilled union workers – then come and talk to me about how great my benefit package is

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Good Mother – what I said to sloboffthestreet goes for you as well if you think we have it so good – go through TAPP and become a teacher. From reading your posts (again at all times of the day) you are either a stay at home mom or maybe self employed. That was your choice so the fact that you have no benefits was part of that choice. My husband and many others that I know are self employed or work for small businesses and they do not have benefits but I have many other friends who work (outside of government jobs) for companies who have great benefits.

sloboffthestreet and good mother keep accusing teachers of whining but they are the ones who keep bringing up all the people who are out of work and can’t find jobs – while many sectors of our state economy – namely the state’s agricultural community – keeps reporting that they have jobs available but no takers.

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The Bureau of Labor Statistics reports that the 2009 average teacher salary in Georgia was $51,050. This figure represents a 5.43 percent increase over the previous year’s average salary of $48,420. This makes Georgia teacher salaries slightly higher than the national average for teacher salaries, which was $49,720 in 2009 and $48,353 in 2008.

The average teacher salary in Georgia has been steadily rising for the last several years. In 2007, teacher salaries in Georgia were $46,900 before increasing by 3.24 percent the following year.

Teaching salaries in Georgia have hovered near the mid-point of national rankings. In 2007, teaching salaries in Georgia ranked 20th in the nation before falling to 21st place in 2008. In 2009, Georgia teacher salaries rose to 19th place in the nation.

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I think everyone needs to think about something: we have a TON of doctors teaching here, which substantially increases the mean income amount. I am reading this with my morning coffee, readying myself for another day of all-I-can-give education. I am paid fairly for the profession I chose. My family in NY even believes that, and they are unionized. GA stands by its good teachers, and we stand by it in return. my county’s scores are headed up, and when you see the new tests under CCGPS, you will see Georgia higher up than you think, I just hope they keep the measuring stick uniform. Besides, Georgia is the most beautiful and friendliest state in the union, this yankee loves it here!

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Good ole Roy Barnes started the downswing in teacher’s salary. He was a democrate and seemed to have it in for teachers.

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This can’t be true because I want more money.

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When I first began teaching GA salaries ranked 48th, then 49th……so it has improved…

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When you factor in furloughs, my salary actually went down considerably that last two years, and might come back to where it was in ‘07 this year…maybe. My system is looking at a serious shortfall next year though, so I expect furloughs to continue. As the state has shifted the percentage of benefits I pay for (my insurance premiums have doubled over the last five years or so), my take home pay has, at best, remained the same since about ‘05. My last few step raises were basically offset by rising insurance premiums. The total they’re using for comparison may look good, but the real numbers on my paystub paint a very different picture.

I LOVE teaching, and will do my best to continue as long as I can. I can’t imagine doing anything else, but I’m not sure the financial benefit is as good as many think it is.

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@Rascal – You make ridiculous claims almost as much as this group.

I have never ever heard anyone make, “the excuse for bad teachers has always been how underpaid they all were.” What? Are you kidding me? Please share where you have heard this!!!!

I would wager that this is in your imagination.

Also, you say, “The truth being kept from us …” Huh? Really?

Your imagination must really be running wild. Now, you have some conspiracy theory going on?

Please go take your medication, immediately!

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It is amazing that even when Politifact finds this a half truth based on some apples to oranges comparisons, people poo poo this as some right wing doublespeak. Look at the study! If you disagree with the R legislator, point out where the study is wrong!.

The fact is , not only are the FACTS of the study correct (conclusions may be wrong, but facts are facts), this represents 9 months work out of the year…. another overlooked fact. Average teacher salary ~$53k. 9.28% taxpayer contribution to their pensions. Lowest cost of living in the country. These are FACTS that point to the conclusion that we are, in FACT, paying teachers enough, and paying comparable to other states, and paying teachers WAY more than student performance indicates that we should be paying them.

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I think a look at STARTING teacher salaries would be instructive. The ‘average” is bumped up by those of us who have stayed at it (39 years) and gotten advanced degrees (PhD) from those darned diploma mills (University of Georgia).

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@rascal
Are you truly ignorant of the facts, do you have an ideological agenda, or are you simply an idiot? It can only be one of those three choices.
You do realize that there are no teacher unions in Georgia, right?
You do realize that those mythical unions don’t bully those in power to keep salaries a big secret, right?
You do realize that by simply doing an internet search for the open government website, you can view the salary of any teacher/administrator/school worker in the state, right?
If you didn’t realize these things, then perhaps you should educate yourself a bit more prior to coming onto an education blog and declaring yourself a moron.

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@Catlady — yes, and summer school and other extra pay should not be considered in that average. From what I can tell, supplements for extra duties are included in the data because they are using the published salaries reported to the state. I look pretty good on paper when you factor in my extra duties but I also work extra days for that pay (ie summer school) so it shouldn’t be included in a study of this sort. Many counties also have a lot of overpaid “teachers on special assignment” (ie coaches).

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I dunno if it’s true.

However, if it IS true, it is also just bleepin pathetic.

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I did this when I was downtown a few years back, although I ONLY looked at absolute compensation without factoring cost of living, taxes, etc. I also looked at pay versus experience, which this study apparently ignored. Georgia teacher salaries were relatively competitive. However, as mentioned above, teachers have taken it on the ear for a number of years, and although that’s ALSO the case in other states, it’s not possible to know without current (rather than 4-5 year old) data where Georgia sits now.

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I believe the teachers are overpaid in Georgia and especially in the Fulton County School System. Approximately 60% of students in the Atlanta and Fulton County School Systems even graduate from high school and the AJC had an article yesterday that stated the Fulton County School System Board voted to give ALL their employees BONUSES this year totally $9.4 million after last year increasing property taxes by one full mileage point to home owners. That $9.4 million should have been returned to the tax payers!!!

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Has anyone applied these calculations to see how Georgia politicians come into line with other state politians around the country. Now, that would be something ot see. Especially if you add in all the extra perks, unknown to most citizens, that come with elected office!

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LeeH1: Well, for a part time job they make good money, they get a huge per diem which they don’t even have to prove, they can claim to work days for additional pay, and they get to count their few months of service per year as a “year” for retirement benefits! Howzabout that!? Then count staff, travel (”fact” finding), and lobbyist “assistance” and it makes for a sweet job. Not sure about their health plan benefits, however. I am guessing it mirrors the Georgia state employees’ plan. I think it would be great to look into their ranking on pay and perks as well!

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Even more interesting…look at the salries and perks retired college personnel get…that teachers and all other state employees do not get. I guess they work much harder than classroom teachers.

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Poor, ‘ole poor teachers. They complain about reps being in charge but conveniently forget that it was their own chosen clown Barnes that initially went after teachers.

Also, complaining about their pensions don’t pay much??? Most of us in the private sector do not have a pension so go cry somewhere else on that one.

Education major – the major of many educators is perhaps one of the easisest majors in college.

9 months of work – must be nice to have the summer off

“We need a union” – this is of cource a “right-to-work” state so good luck on that one.

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Julian – Are you serious? “The limited hours”? I am at school at 6:00 AM every morning and never leave the school before 5:00 to 5:30 and then bring things home to do each night. You have no idea what you are talking about! Attitudes like yours are reason that teachers are treated the way they are today.

Hadenough – “I believe the teachers are overpaid in Georgia and especially in the Fulton County School System.” Really? I haven’t had a raise in six years! I make less money now than I did in 2006 – but I’m “overpaid”? Teachers have “had enough” of being treated like second class citizens. Get a clue before making such ignorant comments.

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In comparison to other service oriented jobs, teachers get paid well. They get paid in line with what cops, fireman etc.. make. And, I know they are tired of hearing this…they DO work fewer hours. Even if you just count the time off in the summer. Many whine and complain and, yes, they probably should be paid more but so should cops, fireman etc…
I’ve said this before. I work for DFCS as a child abuse investigator, my W2 b/c of furloughs showed my income at 32,000 dollars a year. I work 40 hrs per week (or more) 52 weeks per year. My insurance premiums have doubled and I haven’t had a raise in 7 yrs. I have 18 yrs at the agency and a masters degree in psychology. Why do I do it? Why don’t I go find a higher paying job? Because I realize that I am good at what I do, I like going to work everyday (well, night), I get several holidays off and at age 52 I will get a pension. Personally, I think I’m taking the easy way out. I think a lot of teachers are too. They just don’t want to admit it.
I should say that I was an education major at Kennesaw in the early 1990’s. All my friends were too. They all had the same thoughts I did. Education is an “easy major” and we will get summers off. Maybe it didn’t turn out that way but it sure beats coming home at 6pm with one week vacation every year just for more money.

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@ Prof
“This means that for teachers who have been contributing for 24 years or less and then terminated, or terminated at 10 years vested who are age 59 or younger—their benefits are zilch, nada, kaput. And their years’ worth of contributions are just smoke.”

Not true. If they leave before being vested, they collect a check for every dollar they have paid in, plus interest.

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I always “enjoy” the comments – “Teachers complain a lot” – THIS IS AN EDUCATION BLOG!!!! – This is the forum for people who actually have some clue what they’re talking about to counter those who think they know everything about school because they were in one once. In schools, which are highly authoritarian systems (an interesting place to teach kids about democracy – - -), teachers must keep their mouths shut or all too often they’re shown the exit door. Witness the cheating scandals. MANY teachers knew it was wrong but also knew if they blew the whistle they’d be on welfare in short order.

While we’re at it, indeed, there has been no state salary adjustment in years to compensate for inflation or the radical increase in personal contributions to health care costs (etc.). Just like the rest of us.

And finally, while we’re at it for those who still see only that the school day is less than 8 hours and the year is 180 days: The research I did – granted, five years ago – indicated that teachers AVERAGE 50 hours a week. High school English teachers reportedly AVERAGE 60 hours a week. Anecdotally, I know many who average 80 a week. I know of no profession on earth except perhaps that of soldier in combat that requires an individual to stay on focus so many hours out of a day. The research numbers show that even IF a teacher only has a 190 day contract and doesn’t work outside that, they put in more hours that those who have the classic 40-hour job for 50 weeks.

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@Ramm, February 24th, 1:44 am. “If they [teachers] leave before being vested, they collect a check for every dollar they have paid in, plus interest.”

They don’t collect anything from TRS. They may have individual perks from their schools. But that’s not true across the board for all schools.

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@ Homeschooler. Retirement rules for state employees are very similar to those for TRS, but if you’re not an educator or related school employee then you’re not a member of TRS. I’ve always thought that the TRS plan is a good one because it’s based on the one that the state politicians created for themselves. They sure weren’t thinking about schoolteachers!

However–under TRS rules at least– unless you’re 30 years vested at age 52, you’re not going to get any retirement benefits. Also, for TRS members, employment after retirement is only allowed if it is 49% or less and is in the field in which you were working at retirement. Better check the state’s rules!

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As a former teacher, I have always hated teachers who complain about what they make or don’t make. If one gets into teaching for the money, than they chose the wrong profession. That being said, teachers in Georgia do not have it as bad as they want you to believe. The cost of living is much less here in Georgia, especially that in the metro Atlanta area. I know that my home would be untouchable to me in DC, NY, NJ, MD, Boston, CT, the Philadelphia area, Chicago, Houston, and many other metropolitan areas in our country. I don’t live in a huge or even a new home. We bought a fixer upper and would have had to pay well over $400,000 for a home we paid $250,000 for here.

Teachers, need to stop complaining. I realize that Teachers usually work longer than the normal work day, but so do many other professionals who work year round and make about the same amount, often without the benefits that teachers receive.

Teachers wonder why they get such a bad wrap, and it’s because they are so ungrateful for what they do have and complain constantly and loudly about what they don’t.

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Outside the Atlanta metropolitan area, schools are often one of the largest employers and the highest paid professions in the county. I’ve also exported our school district’s salaries to a spreadsheet and conducted some analysis. That $53k average is in line with what I observed.

For what its worth, I’ve met very few people who didn’t want to make more money… (Okay, okay, I’ve never met anyone who didn’t want to make more money, but I hear they’re out there. Somewhere….)

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The “mumbo jumbo” terminology concerning teachers’ salaries should be revised. It should be concerned with the classroom teachers’ average take home compensation from which they pay all of their bills. And this should not include management and administration personnel in calculating the average classroom teacher’s compensation. A teacher does not get any compensation from pension benefits (that they pay for each month of their teaching career) until they retire. During the course of their teaching career, pension benefits do not pay for theirs and/or their families’ food, housing, clothing, etc. To add retiree benefits, paid usually after age 65, to calculate teachers’ take home compensation is ludicrous. Actual take home compensation for most classroom teachers in the state is probably more like $40,000 annually.

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@ Ramm. This is what you originally stated: “If [teachers] leave before being vested, they collect a check for every dollar they have paid in, plus interest.”

After scrolling through to the very end of your link, I see the paragraph you’ve quoted here. However, that check cannot be collected before the teacher is vested as you state, because the teacher is only “TRS covered” AFTER being vested; and vesting comes after 10 years of service (making contributions).

However, I see that my original post was inaccurate. It’s only those first 9 years before vesting that are zilch, nada, kaput. Unfortunate for that 40% of K-12 teachers who reportedly leave the field within their first 5 years. But thank you for correcting my error.

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Thank you, Jerry!

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You are correct in that the pensions for retired personnel are often never collected by teachers. Huge number of teachers leave the teaching profession within 5 years. Since the 10+% pension cost to school systems flows upwards to retired teachers – there is a substantial amount of subsidizing – the majority of teachers do not retire with pensions yet this 10+% paid in is still considered compensation. If teachers separate from the system, they only get back the 5% they put in which was BTW DEDUCTED from their salary.

This is why studies like this confound the teachers and the parents. The money flow is convoluted and does not represent what they see with their own eyes. It’s kind of like those figures that show DeKalb has 14 to 1 pupil teacher ratio, but can anyone find a 7th grade math teacher with only 14 kids? They take the number of students and divide by the number of personnel certified to teach – even though 20% of them don’t teach students at all (admin, counselors, coaches, etc.) and another 30% of them don’t teach content (math, science, social studies, and language arts).

It would be interesting to see the effect the highly paid administrators and support personnel has on the pension system. Of course administrators and support personnel who are certified should participate, but are their pensions considered in this overall formula?

Is everyone aware that the state has what is called a Support Personnel License? This is for personnel who have are not teachers, have never set foot in a classroom, have no education degrees, and do nothing as far as instruction is concerned. They are supervisors in Finance, Public Relations, Transportation, Facilities, Information Technology, etc. The state lets them get this certification (just a matter of paperwork from the Central Office – no specific training) so they can participate in the Teachers Retirement System. IMO – they should be participating in the Public School Employees Retirement System (PSERS) .

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What’s so bothersome is that despite how often and much teachers scream about pay cuts, they will still vote blindly for the current politicians, the ones that cut our pay.

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So many of the responses to the Politifact article show a sorry inability to read very basic social science research. The data from 2008 were used most likely because it was the latest data available at the time of the studies. Georgia teachers’ incomes plus benefits have fallen since and so have the incomes and benefits in every other state. Benefits are included because even though benefits are not available to be cashed in now, they are part of the compensation package and since the studies used the same criteria from state to state it is not apples to oranges. Admins were not included.

What really bothers me is this: in an article about a big education and government issue what y’all have focused on is the throw away typical political backslapping line.

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Old Physics Teacher,

I see you woke up with a great amount of superiority on the 24th. And Respectfully no less. Oh how I love sincere people. Very happy for your over achievers and their 1/2 earning spouses. I do hope they haven’t mortgaged themselves into financial limbo trying to continue to impress yourself and others with their superior financial status. And let’s face it. Payments on those $100,000 cars sure can put a dent in monthly earnings.

I know you are concerned about my situation and how I can improve upon it and I am eternally grateful that you have taken me under your wing giving your advice so freely. It makes me feel like one of the family. Oh if only you were my DADDY, I would be educated like your wonderful children. Alass, not having an employer for the last 23 years there seems to be a conflict with your advice. I suppose I can only look to myself and ask to be paid better. Not having worked for the last 6 years perhaps I will take your advice and see what the public sector is willing to pay a slob for a days work? I don’t think I wish to return to the self employed world again. It consumes to much of the day and night. But when it was good it was very good and your low six figure earners could perhaps take a lesson on how to make money from a slob! Till then, please continue to dole out your priceless advice and arrogance. Perhaps the apple didn’t fall far from the tree!

Respectfully

prof,

Here I am given another piece of advice for a future career by another brilliant public educator. You people are so wonderful and giving. I sure wish you were around when I was a kid.

The calculator I used was provided by the TRS on their web page. One thing I have discovered after all these years is that intelligence isn’t knowing the answer, it’s knowing where to find the answer. And yes, most of the answers are there for the taking.

I also read here on a post that teachers contribute to their retirement and then that money is invested so there is no cost to the taxpayers for teacher retirement. I posted once before on this fallacy asking one of the brilliant educators who is collecting retirement benefits through TRS to add together their mandatory payments into TRS and also add the state contribution over their 30 year servitude. Then calculate what interest rate would have to be gained to make this unending retirement benefit paid to teachers work without any additional taxpayer money? Old Physics Teacher? William Casey? Dr. Spinks? Oh why didn’t I think of it sooner. Of course, JERRY EADS!! That’s the ticket! I await your results.

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Slob,

I’m sure you already know this, but, for others.
The retirement plan takes participant contributions and employer contributions for a personal retirement then at retirement purchases an annuity based on life expectancy of the beneficiary. Some die after only a few years with no survivor benefits awarded, so “the pool” of investment capital supports the other retirees. Some live to be 100 and still get a check every month.

This pooling of resources allows the plan to offer higher monthly payments than can normally be achieved by a individual investor. The gravy on this train is that regardless of the down market, you’ll always get a check, even if the State has to contribute additional funding to support the fund. That takes additional tax dollars from the general budget.

The superior returns on these “private” accounts are similar to what you would receive from social security if you paid for 30 years. So, SS pays you $1,600.00 per month, TRA pays you $3,800.00 per month because it is a privately managed account.

None of this will matter in a few years. These retirement programs with the State will soon go the way of the dinosaur, just like what happened in the private sector. They will be replaced by a regular 403(b) type account with matching funds. The annuity option, with a guaranteed payment for life, will be eliminated.

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Of course, the bottom line is that everyone should check for themselves about TRS, vesting, and the portability of TRS contributions by calling TRS at 404-352-6500 or 800-352-0650.

@ sloboffthestreet. It will probably please you to know that even as you read this blog, there are state legislators reportedly planning to change the rules for TRS in some way so to reduce the costs of it for taxpayers. It may be by changing the definition of “members” to eliminate charter school teachers (there is already such a House Bill) or some other key definition, or it may be by reducing the amount that schools contribute and raising the amount that teachers contribute…I’m sure that it will be ingenious, whatever the method.

But I’m pretty sure that they won’t tinker with the rules governing the retirement pensions of state employees, cited earlier by “Homeschooler,” any more than they will enact ethics laws restricting lobbyists.

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Slob,

Yes, the good old pension benefit guarantee corporation (http://www.pbgc.gov/ ) the agency that bails out failed and underfunded programs. The TRA program is a good deal for the participants. In fact, many will make far more in retirement income than they ever earned teaching. Yet, we have the poor schlep that’s 70 years old working at Home Depot for $8.00 dollars an hour who may not have had access to a defined benefit plan (pension with life annuity benefit) but subsidizes the state and federal pension plan each payday or by paying sales or property tax.

Either social security should pay a retirement benefit that you can actually live on, similar to a TRA monthly check or they should immediately freeze and eliminate the life annuity program that is subsidized by the private sector. That way, each person has their own 401k or 403b savings account and will work until they can afford to retire with the meager payment they will receive from social security. It’s only fair. Why should there be a segment of the population that is guaranteed an income for life while others work to fund their pension subsidy?

@I love teaching. I hate what it is becoming… The social security benefit for teachers may vary by state. In most cases, regular state employees with a pension plan also qualify for social security.

The point is, if all taxpayers had access to a plan similar to the TRA plan, social security on the federal level would not been needed.

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@Ole Guy…. You are right in your assessment. Teachers must take ownership of the profession. If that means walkin out en masse, that is what needs to be done. Firefighters, police officers, and teachers should galvanize to send a message to the elected officials. Without all of the above, a society will perish. We are more important than elected officials who spend hours thinking of ways to devalue these professions.

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@ sloboffthestreet, Feb. 23, 4:32 pm: “As to the poor prof and his complaint, if you work the 30 and earn $50,000 your last 2 years the calculator says you can take a one time Plop payment of $93,000 and receive $2000.00 a month until you DIE!!! Or simply take the $2600.00 per month until you are dead. And remember your wonderful significant other also enjoys survivor benefits.”

Wrong, slob. You DON’T have a new career ahead of you as a financial consultant as I suggested, for you couldn’t even use the TRS calculator accurately here. Figuring “you work the 30″ (a long sentence in the trenches), average $50,000 for the last 2 years, with 1 beneficiary (”wonderful significant other”), you would get the lump-sum PLOP payment of $92,700 all right, but only $1000 a month thereafter. Or $2300 a month without taking the lump-sum PLOP, which works out to $27,600 a year.

As “I Love Teaching” notes, many teachers’ schools won’t allow them to enroll in Social Security.

And why do you think I’m male?

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@Dekalbite, Yes, you did misunderstand. The plan administrator of the retirement system manages the assets of the plan. The annuity is for life with no cash option. However, I can cash in a 401k plan for 250k and then will owe tax on the entire balance for that tax year. The defined benefit plan pays a monthly amount to the beneficiary for life or surviving spouse if that option is elected. However some pension plans to have a cash option.

As far as ire at teachers and state workers? Not from me. I’m simply pointing out the inequities in the system. People contribute about the same percentage to social security as the TRA, yet the monthly payment is much smaller percentage. Simply because there are no assets in the social security “lock box”, it was all spent for pork projects. So, the TRA accounts are an excellent example of long term prudent money management. Social security is at the other end of the spectrum. The more money you contribute to SS, the lower you net return/yield.

The people in Washington have their own retirement program and don’t really care if SS is efficient, it’s used to pander for votes.

As far as your comment:
“Social Security – what makes you think it will be there when you retire? **************** It may only pay a percentage of projected benefits in the future. Also, there may be an asset threshold that reduces or eliminates your ability to collect.

The government can’t allow current SS contributors to have the option to “opt out” for a private retirement accounts because current payees contributions are paying the benefits for the retired population.

My basic point was: We have created a two tier system. Government workers that are afforded a income stream for life and everyone else. The “everyone else” contributes to their own retirement and has to worry about outliving their assets,( in addition to subsidizing government employees annuities). Again, that is why the defined benefit plan (annuity payments) will become a thing of the past in years to come.

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@sloboffthestreet. And why do you think I’m female?

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The contributions for TRS are greater than for Social Security, therefore the yield should also be greater. Currently, the payroll tax is a little over 10% for worker and employer combined. TRS sits close to 16%. To obtain benefits from TRS you must work 30 years in the same state system. Otherwise you get nothing. To obtain a pension from Social Security you can work in many different industries and need only 10 years of work. This is quite a difference when you consider the older you get the more chance your health may fail and you may not be able to work. It’s much more difficult to get a pension from TRS than Social Security. Consider all of those teachers who come and go and contribute and yet they only get the 5% they contributed while getting no long term pension benefits, and most have not missed out on their Social Security contributions as well.

When I was in business (technical sales), I earned a much greater salary than I did as a teacher. I saved money, but I also spent more because I figured I earned more. When I went back to teaching, I dialed back my lifestyle because I was earning less. I noticed that my friends who were in business in jobs paying higher than teaching took trips and bought cars and homes that I could not afford now that I was back in a lower paying job. My friends COULD have lived like me and invested that extra money into savings and investments for retirement (so hard to do when you are young and make a good salary). If they had lived my very modest lifestyle and invested any extra money, they would have had enough money at the end to have about the same income I have from TRS. But they didn’t and so now they complain about the fact that teachers have pensions. I’m not knocking them. Within 5 years of leaving teaching and going into corporate sales, I was making 4 times my teaching salary. I didn’t want to live like a teacher on that kind of income so my lifestyle and my expenditures were more in line with my salary. It was a difficult adjustment to go back to a teacher’s salary from a salesperson’s. I’m glad I did because it worked out in retirement, but retirement when you are young is so very far away.

The future of Social Security and the Public Pension plans will be interesting to watch. Keeping people from “opting out” of Social Security for private retirement accounts entails more than the fact that the current payees are needed for future beneficiaries. Social Security’s investment in Treasury bonds underpins our national economic security.

Public pensions may indeed become a thing of the past, but when that happens teachers will either want higher pay or they will migrate to higher paying professions. This recession won’t last forever. Teachers are among the best educated workers, and actually federal government workers are as well. Federal retirement as a defined benefit pension already does not exist. Civil Service retirement breathed its last breath a number of years ago and now federal retirement is a combination of Social Security and their own tax deductible contributions which are much greater than you can take advantage of in the business world. Interestingly, the difference in civil service retirement and the current federal retirement system which is the combination of Social Security and payroll deducted tax sheltered dollars is about the same. This may be what many public pensions move to. IMO – the amount of dollars that you can shelter from taxes for retirement should be greatly increased. But we’re really not a “retirement” and “savings” nation.

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“The actual SS numbers are 6.2% for employees and employer for a total of 12.4%….You can add another 2.9% for Medicare for a total of 15.3%”

Not with the payroll tax cut that has been extended. It dropped 2% to 4.2% so with employers contributing 6.2% makes it 10.4%.

FYI teachers contribute to Medicare at the same rate as anyone else, even as they are not allowed into Social Security. Medicare was a nice bite out of my teacher’s salary.

The combined TRS contribution is around 16%, and then the Medicare contribution needs to be added in so that would be around 19% for teachers.

I truthfully don’t consider Social Security a “ponzi scheme” even though I took a substantial hit on what I would have gotten for Social Security because I retired from a system that did not pay into Social Security. I had 15 years of paying into Social Security – for many years at the maximum level – but my benefits were reduced because of the Windfall Tax Provision. My mom gets most of her income from Social Security. She worked all her life and contributed to Social Security, and my dad paid into Social Security for 30 years and died at 64 before he could collect a nickel. So I guess he and my mom had around 60 years of combined work and Social Security contributions and in the end he got nothing and she got a little. That’s one reason 401K and 403Bs have always been so attractive to me. You can leave your child your 403B or 401K while you can’t leave your Social Security or your Teachers Retirement to your child. As a parent that is a very important consideration. They can function almost like a life insurance policy. The hard part is managing the money of course. Bernie Madoff was a professional money manager and so was Walter Noel and so was J. Ezra Merkin. This comes back to the non existent regulation of the financial industry, close ties between Wall Street and our government officials.

I think it’s wise to have several legs to your retirement – a tax shelter, Social Security, a defined benefit pension (I know insurance companies also sell these) and general savings. Everyone says it’s too hard to save, but I put $2,400 a year into a personal tax sheltered annuity (TSA aka 403B) when I was a teacher making $9,000 in the mid 1970s and also put money aside for savings. I did hold part time jobs in order to do that, but I got it done. I know most young people want things and good times, not TSAs. Maybe that is why they find retirement so elusive. That was when the 403B first came about. I funded my personal 403B for 25 years (minus my 8 years in business when I funded IRAs). You can never be too prepared. How do you force people to do this? I’m not sure the government can.

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“TRS sits close to 16%”

Close is not 16%. Just like a couple of people have presented the fact that “MANY” teachers will not collect Social Security. So would someone please tell us how much is MANY?

Back to TRS and the close to 16%. This is a number that didn’t exist 10 years ago. Even 5 years ago. Teachers paying in today are contributing to a system that is simply a Ponzi scheme as it is structured at the moment. The Social Security contribution was always higher than the total contribution of the educator and the taxpayer for the total yearly TRS contribution. And remember teachers, you paid next to nothing for your share and screamed and yelled when you were asked to contribute a higher % a few years ago which by the way still isn’t even close if you would like to see the TRS survive as it is for future educators to enjoy. Think of it this way. Go find an 80 year old person and ask them if they ever thought a loaf of bread could cost $3.50? Then ask them if they saved enough money to cover this unanticipated increase in the cost of goods or the lost value of their dollar. The answer every time will be NO so do yourselves a favor and if you have a dime save a nickel. If you aren’t paying into Social Security take the money you would have paid in and save it. You’re gonna need it! You can go on ranting about the situation or begin to prepare yourselves for the inevitable. You claim to be highly educated. Start acting like it!

Again I will ask any of the current recipients of the TRS to calculate their total contribution to the fund and explain how it is perceived to be self sufficient. And the reason no one has responded to my request for the 4th time on 3 different blogs is that it isn’t. The fact is every TRS, county, state and federal retirement fund is left with unfunded liabilities that will soon bankrupt the country right along with the Medicare & prescription drug financial shortfalls. Sadly enough Social Security is in the best shape of any of these programs with an unfunded liability of only 15 TRILLION dollars while adding the big three together, {Social Security, Medicare, Prescription Drug Liability} we as a nation have promised to fund these benefits to Americans but somehow are short on cash to do so. And how many dollars short are we as a nation you may ask? $117,764,130,000,000 as of this morning at 6:30 AM. That’s 117 TRILLION US Dollars for anyone who has trouble with 0’s. Kind of makes you feel a little better about our $15 Trillion debt or the $15 Trillion Social Security shortfall now doesn’t it? Please keep in mind every taxpayer as of this morning owes over $!,000,000 just to cover the shortfall for the big three. I am ashamed to say as an American that my wife and I don’t have our 2 million dollars to pay our debt. And soon when all these promised pension plans for government employees are forced to expose their unfunded liabilities we may come up short on paying that debt also.

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“The actual SS numbers are 6.2% for employees and employer for a total of 12.4%….You can add another 2.9% for Medicare for a total of 15.3%”

Not with the payroll tax cut that has been extended. It dropped 2% to 4.2% so with employers contributing 6.2% makes it 10.4%.

FYI teachers contribute to Medicare at the same rate as anyone else, even as they are not allowed into Social Security. Medicare was a nice bite out of my teacher’s salary.

The combined TRS contribution is around 16%, and then the Medicare contribution needs to be added in so that would be around 19% for teachers.

I truthfully don’t consider Social Security a “ponzi scheme” even though I took a substantial hit on what I would have gotten for Social Security because I retired from a system that did not pay into Social Security. I had 15 years of paying into Social Security – for many years at the maximum level – but my benefits were reduced because of the Windfall Tax Provision. My mom gets most of her income from Social Security. She worked all her life and contributed to Social Security, and my dad paid into Social Security for 30 years and died at 64 before he could collect a nickel. So I guess he and my mom had around 60 years of combined work and Social Security contributions and in the end he got nothing and she got a little. That’s one reason 401K and 403Bs have always been so attractive to me. You can leave your child your 403B or 401K while you can’t leave your Social Security or your Teachers Retirement to your child. As a parent that is a very important consideration. They can function almost like a life insurance policy. The hard part is managing the money of course. Bernie Madoff was a professional money manager and so was Walter Noel and so was J. Ezra Merkin. This comes back to the non existent regulation of the financial industry, close ties between Wall Street and our government officials.

I think it’s wise to have several legs to your retirement – a tax shelter, Social Security, a defined benefit pension (I know insurance companies also sell these) and general savings. Everyone says it’s too hard to save, but I put $2,400 a year into a personal tax sheltered annuity (TSA aka 403B) when I was a teacher making $9,000 in the mid 1970s and also put money aside for savings. I did hold part time jobs in order to do that, but I got it done. I know most young people want things and good times, not TSAs. Maybe that is why they find retirement so elusive. That was when the 403B first came about. I funded my personal 403B for 25 years (minus my 8 years in business when I funded IRAs). You can never be too prepared. How do you force people to do this? I’m not sure the government can.

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Thank you Jerry for confirming math I did independently in an informal manner. I work fewer weeks per year than my husband, true, but, over the course of a 52 week year, I work more hours. My day is structured completely differently than his as well (there are no errands at lunch hour because there is no lunch hour). He makes more money than I do and with 401K and Social Security, his retirement will be as good as or better than mine. I don’t think of teachers discussing their hours/compensation as whining, more as defending. There are so many erroneous preconceived ideas of what teachers do and how they spend their time, why is it “whining” for teachers to tell the truth about what they do? I don’t complain about my pay, but I do take issue with people thinking I don’t earn it. As a teacher in a Title I school with students who don’t want to be there, I earn every penny and then some.

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” there is a 2% reduction for the social security tax, to spur economic growth, but you’re still receiving full credit in terms of the benefit comparison.”

The 2% for 2012 is being paid for with the Broadband spectrum sale – temporarily – after that – well, long range planning is not the government’s forte no matter which party is in power. Look at the run up in the national debt on Bush’s watch with 3 wars and the Medicare Prescription Plan.

““How do you force people to do this? I’m not sure the government can.” Nope, some people will always be irresponsible and always operate at a negative net worth.”

That’s very true. That’s why social security was enacted. So we don’t have to step over seniors eating dogfood on the streets, and it has achieved that end even though it is more costly that we ever anticipated.

Germany has high productivity, very low unemployment, a high rate of savings, an excellent educational system (they designate students from a young age into academic or vocational tracks), universal health care, a careful cultivation of alternative energy sources and conservation, and a robust social welfare system (although they are also running up against an aging population as well). Go anywhere in the world, and you will run into German tourists – they always have the money to travel. Go into a typical German home, and it is small and efficient with the ubiquitous clothesline in the backyard – no dryers for them – too much energy is wasted – and an organic garden and their recycling bins. Saving and investing is one of their cultural norms. Personal saving has not been a value that is promoted in the U.S. Nor do we have the will to wean ourselves off a finite resource such as oil. If it was, we would have more tax deferred savings and investment opportunities and less consumption based tax breaks – e.g .the tax deduction of house mortgages, low taxes on gasoline. Our elected officials do not sneak into office. We elect them. They are a reflection of ourselves. If they spend money unwisely and never plan for the future, then they are merely reflecting our overall values.

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Teacher Mom, no ones like to be labeled a whiner for simply stating reality; no one, certainly not yours truly, disputes the fact that you, as a teacher, work hard long thankless hours. What is often perceived as teacher bashing is really education bashing, for the hours invested in educational pursuit…as measured by conventional yardsticks…seems to yield very little. When kids, in large numbers, receive glowing high school grades but fail to receive college diplomas; fail to qualify for the high tech world, etc…TEACHERS are the first place to go in asking “WHY is this being allowed to happen”? Teachers, in turn, respond:

“Well, I WANT to teach these kids, but neither they nor the school administrations will let me. I work long tough hours, spend my own monies on stuff the schools won’t provide, attend meetingd, work on furlough days, etc, etc, etc. Nobody seems to appreciate my efforts; every time I say something about the realities within the teacher corps, I’m accused of whining”

Mom, I, along with many others, completely understand your situation. What I…and quite possibly many others…cannot understand is WHY you, the corps of dedicated teachers, have not initiated actions intended to produce good educational products…students who, upon entering the mean ole world, are fully capable of facing that world head-on; of meeting the challenges, sheding the blood sweat and tears and, in the end, proclaiming “I DID IT”!.

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Prof lady,

I know you addressed this to Ole Guy but if I may,

1. The teachers kids are not any smarter than the other students. Stop pretending they are. End the Horizon/Gifted class for the so called smart kids. They are just the teachers kids, PTO moms kids and the other social schmoozers kids. At the end of high school you will see who is accepted to Ga. Tech and Yale. Pay attention and see for yourself. It’s surprising, I know,,,,

2. Either all students in a district attend pre-k or they all start K together.

3. Primary paper is mandatory for any assignment that requires the written letter or word. Lines and columns are also mandatory for math assignments.

4. Teach children the proper way to print their upper and lower case letters. Zaner-Bloser please.

5. Have students writing sentences their first week of school continuing this development into composition and having every student passing the 5th grade writing assessment with flying colors.

6. Teach children their addition and subtraction facts. Also teach them their multiplication facts along with proper division skills. Present word problems daily. Use money to demonstrate fractions, decimals and %’s. It works. Kids relate to and understand money. The rest is just teacher Bla, Bla, Bla.

7. No more than 5 spelling words and 5 sight words per week. Have students write them 5 times daily on primary paper of course and repeat nightly for homework. At the end of 5th grade students will have at their command a vocabulary of 2,500 words along with being able to spell them correctly. Please see 5th grade writing assessment test results.

8. Make Accelerated Reader mandatory at each school library. Use it properly. Please remember teachers, your little darlings are not smarter than the other students. This thought only exists in your head. Please have them use it too. It’s a “Developmental Program.” Leave out the pizza parties and rewards. 2 books per week please. Rotate test days for each grade in the library having a computer lab available for each student in class. Also teach the students all Microsoft programs by the end of middle school. The earlier the better.

9. Teach students to write cursive. Now that they have become proficient writing their letters properly using Zaner-Bloser the transition to cursive is almost instant and repetitive in many cases. Educators demand a signature on progress reports, report cards and all the other communications. Other people in life require the written word also. It also develops manual dexterity using connective motion. It’s much more important than most people think it is.

10. Jesus and all religious teachings belong in the church of your choice. Not in our public schools. If you are a crazed religious nut go teach at a religious private school. Please be sure to have the students recite the Pledge of Allegiance daily. There is nothing offensive about the phrase “Under God” although the original pledge without it is more appropriate for all of America. And to think it was written by a Baptist Minister. Imagine that.

Now I don’t think my top 10 breaks any laws or budgets and the middle school teachers will be grateful to have a class of students on level to move them to the next step. Also the focus should be on the class as a whole. To promote them as a group. No one cares what your pet projects are that all too often fail to teach an entire class a skill. Quit making stuff up. If it’s not tried and proven true it is not allowed. When anyone observes such a failure remedial training of the teacher is mandatory. If you need to be retrained a second time you must find another occupation. Also treat students with the encouragement, love and respect you demand for yourself. Please explain the rules and expectations to students the day they arrive and remind them as needed. Be consistent and fair with discipline. All children want to be successful and smart. Please be ever mindful of what you are. “Educators.”

And we can call it “NCLB 2″ or “The Alan Parsons Project” if you wish.

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P.S. @ slobofftehstreet. You are proposing commonsensical, down-to-earth ways that elementary school teachers might produce good students, but I think that here, as elsewhere, Ole Guy has something more radical in mind for the “corps of dedicated teachers.” He has mentioned in earlier posts that he was a military man in the Air Force, and I think he’d much prefer teachers to be kamikaze pilots.

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You know, Prof…you (and, unfortunately, many educators) remind me of the guy who, after cancelling the home insurance, taking the batts out of the smoke alarms, and placing pennys in the fuse box…all to save a few bucks, stands amid the smoldering ruins and asks “What actions do you recommend; do you have any practical advice”? Woulda-coulda-shouldas, at this point, serve absolutely no purpose. You, the teacher corps, by your willing acceptance, over the years, of the “slow squeeze” of administrative mismanagement, and the unchallenged acceptance of legislative shortsightedness…ALL IN THE INTEREST OF MAINTAINING ARTIFICIALLY CALM WATERS…have created your own sets of problems; at the same time, YOU have re-defined education from the once-held-in-high-esteem endeavor it once was to the gd playground it is today, both a state-supported day care facility and a breeding ground for psuedo achievement. YOU’VE read the comments, contended with the nonsensical, argued the issues into oblivian, and…all-the-while…pretended that there just had to be some “magic bullet”/some quick n’ dirty recipi to get the educational boat afloat. You’re gonna have to stop sticking your collective toes in the pool and jump in…COLLECTIVELY. The isues of legal constraint…real as theyn are…are the obstacles which you…that’s YOU ALONE…must ford.

I realize the many personal issues involved. Many have become reliant on medical benefits and the like. No one can offer “yellow brick road” answers to the “magic land of oz”…YOU’ve got to get out your map and compass and navigate your profession back to where it needs to be…NOT AN EASY TASK. But the alternatives aren’t too appealing, are they? Not for YOU, and they damn sure aren’t appealing for a generation that’s supposed to be able to live lives just a little better than those before them.

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Now you listen and you listen good, Prof! I’ve fought my battles…on many fronts. You wouldn’t believe some of the _ hit I’ve successfully overcome (I’m not refering to the ole combat vet thing, although I’ve wet my pants a few times in that particular arena). Both you and Bev, by your statements of surrender to the powers of fear and uncertainty; by willingly subrogating yourselves while, at the same time, relinquishing your RESPONSIBILITIES to the (imagined) sources of those fears, accentuate exactly where the weak spots are. You obligingly march off to assemble the accoutrements of the trade: the degrees, the longevity…really the survival…and then you come across indignant at the mere thought that anyone, not within your circus tent, might know how to manage and control the animals, a task at which YOU have a demonstrated history of ABJECT FAILURE. You dare to express a holier than thou reaction to the very hint; the mere suggestion that someone without the medals and bows of contemporary educational thought…the masters in this and the phds in that…just may hold a glimmer of reality toward the impossible tasks you have…through your timid reactions (I’m just a simple foot soldier)…woven about you. Even those “simple foot soldiers” have responsibilities which cannot be relegated upward. To do so only indicates COWARDICE!

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Here is the deal….Example: I am a nurse making 62,000. No pension, no guaranteed health insurance, just a 401K which has tanked. The government workers have raped us all, and the audacity of them to complain.

Take their pensions away and their lavish 180 days a year work schedule and give them something to complain about except for Bull-sh*t. Let them work like the rest of us do. All the teachers I know are emotionally sick or drunks so that is why our children are not doing well, they have very difunctional people to deal with at school, and their RRR includes Ritalin so the drunken/stressed out teachers can stand the brats. This is the current dysfunctional cycle we are all caught up called government education.

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