State Sen. Carter: Reinstitute cap on HOPE and base it on available lottery funds each year

Earl of Ft. Liqourdale

January 28th, 2012
10:47 am

A better story: The Glenn Brock (Brock Clay Law Firm)…James Wilson (School Consulting Company)…Mark Elgart (Private Accreditation Company, SACS) connections. Hmm. Haven’t we been saying that this Educational Industrial Complex is full of moolah? It’s a multi-billion dollar industry right here in Georgia. Folks, the Mrs. and I were just talking this morning while sipping on some Folger’s about how it has gone (since the days when we taught in Clayco) from teachers driving the agenda in their classrooms and having a genuine concern for their kids to lawyers and hireling superintendents (from all over the country) padding their fat wallets with the taxpayers’ monies and apparently having little concern for the children themselves, though they pay lip service to this.

Follow the money, just like the snook follow the chicken gizzards that Abe and Eli use on our lines at the 14th Street Bridge (at the Las Olas intersection) down here in Liqourdale.

voice of reason

January 28th, 2012
11:02 am

Was the program not originally intended to offer opportunity to those students who proved themselves academically but could not afford college? If so there SHOULD be a an income cap on the offer. I am not against the rich. I am not against capitalism. I am NOT an ‘occupier’. But why would this program offer money to those who can afford college while running deficits? Why has basic common sense disappeared from our society?

William Casey

January 28th, 2012
11:11 am

An income cap should be discussed ONLY after something is done to prevent marginal “scholars” from using HOPE to finance a year of partying. Also, absolutely no HOPE money should be spent on remedial courses.

GSU MOM

January 28th, 2012
11:32 am

If this cap is passed, my high achieving son will have a difficult time affording college. He took out the most loans he could this year. Next year will be even more money because of rising tuition and the possibility of no HOPE. He is being penalized because we made more than the cap. The students who will be getting HOPE under the cap have other loans, grants etc to use in helping defray their costs. My son does not qualify for these.. HOPE, this year, did keep him from borrowing $14,000; he only borrowed 11,0000. My son made the grades in high school to gain HOPE; presently he is making the grades in college. He kept his end of the bargain but the state has not. Some possible solutions to help keep HOPE for all students who are achieving and deserve it are to raise the high school GPA to 3.5 and have a certain score on the ACT or SAT. Eliminate the Zell Scholars; every student should get the same amount no matter the test score or the GPA as long it is the minimum. There are also many other scholarships for the very high achievers. If 94% of the families will be eligible for full HOPE, it sounds like the program will still have money issues. It looks like the money is just being moved around from one group of kids to another. You aren’t saving any money. According to your plan, the Zell Miller scholar will get a full scholarship and the students who are below the income cap and make the academic requirement will get a full scholarship. How is this saving money?

bootney farnsworth

January 28th, 2012
11:41 am

another democrat with another entitlement program.
lovely.

FCS Teacher

January 28th, 2012
11:46 am

Is there a statistic on the number of students who use HOPE, but drop out before graduating? Is this a significant problem?

bootney farnsworth

January 28th, 2012
11:46 am

a more common sense approach is to place restrictions on the number of applicants who can recieve HOPE each year.

make it more like college admissions where things like community service, school related activites(clubs, band, ect) and those with better grades have a higher priority than the kid who sleepwalks through HS

bootney farnsworth

January 28th, 2012
11:48 am

@ FCS

I don’t have figures in front of me, but where I work we see a pretty good attrition rate of HOPE scholars hitting the wall hard.

its not they are bad kids per se, they just aren’t ready for the rigors of college. their alleged HS education didn’t give them the grounding they need to compete and survive

another comment

January 28th, 2012
11:53 am

The biggest problem right now is the top Private and Catholic High Schools, are ensuring that 90+% of their graduates graduate with a 3.8+ GPA. These are the students whose parents paid $16,000 to $25,000 for high school and make $200,000+ a year. However these parents will make it clear they are due to receive above a 3.7. Otherwise these schools won’t get their annual donations, alumni donations etc. These schools and parents also make sure that their students have tutors and the best help to make sure they score over 1200 on the SAT

Janet

January 28th, 2012
11:57 am

Under this particular 140k cap, my family would be protected as we are no where near that number. But I am still leery of placing income caps because it can be a slippery slope. What happens 3 years down the road when the lottery still isn’t making enough and tuitions are still increasing? The income cap will be lowered… that’s what will happen. It’s too easy. Then what happens 3 years after that, and 3 years after that? It won’t be long until Hope is only for those at poverty level. My kids are only 4 and 6 years old, I have no expectation that Hope will be around by the time they are ready for college.

Low income families have alot of options to pay for college (grants etc), but for those between who make around 100k, there is no help and they can not afford to pay outright. Why can’t we control these outrageously rising tuitions? Only then, will college would be more affordable for everyone. Everything else is just a band aid.

bootney farnsworth

January 28th, 2012
11:57 am

why not cap HOPE?
besides that capping HOPE creates another entitlement program, the simple fact is college has become insanely expensive.

even in state the cost of sending a kid to college these days can easily explode the budget of families making less than $250,000 a year.

nothing except the price of gas has gone up so dramatically in so short a period as tuition and related fees.

bootney farnsworth

January 28th, 2012
12:02 pm

more common sense approaches:

require HOPE hopefuls to take at least 1 core joint enrollment course.
and pass it. this way we can get a gauge if the kid is ready for the rigors of college yet.

another is to require HOPE recipients to take a certain amount of service learning courses while in college. if thy’er not willing to earn the HOPE, don’t give it to them.

anyone not a Zell Miller scholar must go the 2 year/tech college route – and graduate- before going on to a 4 year school.

bootney farnsworth

January 28th, 2012
12:06 pm

private & catholic schools demanding results from the kids, and parents who are willing to invest in said activity.

and to some this is a problem? we should have this problem on a national level.

who are these people, giving a damn about the education of their children? any chance we can get them into APS administration?

bootney farnsworth

January 28th, 2012
12:08 pm

oh, and about student loans….

the only thing more predatory than holders of student loans is the IRS.

Themis

January 28th, 2012
12:09 pm

Minorities and the ‘disadvantaged” already have the majority of the fiancial “assistance” (read free ride) programs to attend college. And yet even with the FREE ride fail to graduate in overwhelming numbers –maybe because they didn’t have the smarts to be there anyway, but due to diversity requirements—that’s another story. So the middle class and upper middle class who are the students who actually graduate get a real job (i.e. not a government job) then not only have to pay back their school loans, but extra tax money to fund the giveaway programs te government enacts to put more students who don’t belong into college!

bootney farnsworth

January 28th, 2012
12:12 pm

how about we eliminate all off site graduations – yes, talking about Ga. State – to save some money.

or dump them altogether.

its the degree, not the party that matters

Girls gone wild

January 28th, 2012
12:14 pm

All of us who went to college remember seeing the minority and “disadvantaged” kids with all the financial assistance hanging out in the student union, playing ball at the student center all day, and getting that free paid year of partying -disgusied as college– then the liberlas are up in arms that not enough of them graduate –solution –throw more money at it of course

Lee

January 28th, 2012
12:17 pm

I think Gov Deal, Sen Carter, and others who proprose to play games with the HOPE requirements conveniently ignore two of the biggest factors:
1. The casual student who attends college for a year, doesn’t make the grades, and drops out.
2. The significant increases in tuition which outpace inflation and even those of comparable institutions.
————–

1. I’ve long blogged about this problem. Solution: make HOPE a REIMBURSEMENT program where the student pays the tuition up front and then gets reimbursed for those classes he passed. Put some “skin in the game”, as they say.
——————-

2. The second issue is more problematic. That is, the dramatic increase in tuition that far exceeds inflationary pressures and exceeds the tuition increases at comparable southern colleges. There was a very good ten year comparison of UGA’s tuition compared to three different peer groups. http://irp.uga.edu/reports/Tuition_And_Fees_Comparison.pdf

What this report shows was that in 2001, the tuition at UGA was comparable to the average of the Southern Region peer group. However, in 2011, UGA’s Resident/non-Resident tutiion exceeded this average by 15%/21%. During this period, the peer group average increased by 104%/104%, whereas UGA’s tuition increased 156%/138%.

The question remains why UGA’s tuition exceeds that of their peers. I would suggest that they had no external pressure to keep costs in line. After all, HOPE was paying for everything.

A classic example of killing the golden goose.

bootney farnsworth

January 28th, 2012
12:18 pm

@ themis

incorrect on several counts:
1-very few of these “free rides” are actually free. most have a big
bill due later.
2-most the “minority & disadvantaged” students who fail do so not due
to lack of intelligence, but due to lack of a decent HS system who passed them through instead of actually educating them (see APS)
they hit college unprepaired for what actually is waiting for them.

its a nice boortz-ish rant, but has little basis in reality.

bootney farnsworth

January 28th, 2012
12:20 pm

@ Girls

best recruitment post I’ve seen in a long time

bootney farnsworth

January 28th, 2012
12:22 pm

@ Lee

not sure about #1, but it does merit discussion. the fastest way to get someone to not take something seriously is to give it to them

#2-dead on. the real source of the problem.

bootney farnsworth

January 28th, 2012
12:24 pm

(tongue firmly in cheek here)

damn all those catholic, private, disadvantaged, minorities.
they get all the good stuff.

Sandy Springs parent

January 28th, 2012
12:37 pm

Yesterday, I volunteered at the Middle School College Fair. Many schools did not send of representative, just info. So Parent volunteers were at the tables. I was at the Table for Young Harris College. What would I say, it was the College where Former Gov. and Senator Zell Miller taught. It’s current president is Cathy Cox the fromer Secretary or State, not the Education Secretary that screwed up Math with Math 1,2,3 that your older Brothers and Sisters are complaining about.

I told them that the tuition room and board was only $29,000, which is a bargain for a Private School. I also told them they can still use up to the $4,000 Hope Scholarship against this tuition. I went on to tell them that I personally, had gone to a small Catholic College Undergraduate, and felt strongly that going to a small private college was better. I told them you have small classes, you actually get professors teaching classes.

I also made sure to tell any minority student black or hispanic ( which is about 70% at this school). That they want to avoid any “college” that advertises on the TV. I told them those were “for profits” and would take their financial aid, and run. I told them even if they graduated with a Nursing Asst. ( or the name dejour) they would only make $10/hr and be stuck in debt. I told them that at a real non-profit private college their is ussually more financial aid options like small scholarships and Grants that they can put together and go at minimal cost. I gave them the example of how my cousins daughter who lives in North Carolina, went to a private college for free by applying for every $500-1000 scholarship their was. She also agreeded to teach in a low income school district for 3 years first. She is teaching in Wake County Schools. But she graduated with no debt, and it would have cost her $16,000 a year as an in-state student to go to the Univ. of North Carolina.

BS Aplenty

January 28th, 2012
12:39 pm

When I attended undergraduate school some 30 years ago, you could pay for 15 quarter-hours (a full load – but not a boatload…) of tuition for LESS THAN $200. No BS – ask my wife. I graduated from undergraduate school with ZERO in student loans mostly by a) living at home, b) working part-time through school and c) paying tutition of only $200 per quarter. When I earned my MBA from the same fine Georgia insitution, I lived in a one-bedroom apt. carved from an old house ($195/mo), worked part-time, was a graduate assistant and graduated with less than $700 in student loans.

The federal and state government get involved in people’s lives ostensibly with the most altruistic motive that liberal “fairness” can muster. However, much like the calamity caused by government intervention in the mortgage industry through Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, such government fairness ultimately results in asset bubbles, subsequent crashes and taxpayer bailouts (RE: FNMA & FHLMC). And I really do agonize over the tremendous loss of home equity caused by government mortgage lending policies and wonder how many retirees and near-retirees can manage having lost their home equity nest eggs.

In this case of government invention in secondary education, like HOPE, it appears that many of these politicians haven’t learned anything about the unintended consequences of their fairness policies except this: ultimately, they will create an unsustainable bubble is the secondary education market via the student loan industry. This I fear is the next great arena for debt defaults AND taxpayer bailouts.

P.S. – you cannot eliminate government guaranteed students loan debt via bankruptcy. Look for the bankruptcy laws to be changed prior to the next taxpayer bailout.

AJinCobb

January 28th, 2012
2:10 pm

@Maureen, so true. As the parent of a high school senior I’m currently very well aware of the gap between costs and awards. A scholarship of say, $20,000 per year may sound thrilling, but if the cost of tuition, room and board is $52,000 then the student and family are still faced with having to come up with $32,000 per year. That’s a huge or impossible amount for the vast majority of families.

Momof2teens

January 28th, 2012
2:21 pm

@Lee makes excellent points. His ideas should be seriously considered by those in the legislature.

There’s no incentive for college kids to use cost of college as a part of their selection process when it’s all paid for. I have two going to college in the next two years and have told them they will have to pay for their college up front, then we’ll reimburse them for grades of B or higher and an equal percentage of fees, etc up to the dollar amount we’ve put aside for their college.

As for the Zell Miller scholarship, it should also include SAT or ACT scores or require AP or joint enrollment courses in it’s eligibility requirements. Just because someone is one of the top two in their class does not mean they are college material. Many high schools in GA do not have the rigorous academics to ensure success in college.

No academic scholarship should pay for remedial courses.

Karl

January 28th, 2012
2:24 pm

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. It’s only fair.

em

January 28th, 2012
2:36 pm

@fcs and bootney farnsworth,
I have posted twice that 32 percent keep HOPE after 90 hours and 52 percent graduate within six years. My information comes from the Governor’s Office on Student Achievement. Those are for 29009-2010 since current data isn’t available yet. Check it out.

em

January 28th, 2012
2:42 pm

@Lee
I have said the same thing about making HOPE a reimbursement program. I don’t understand why it is so difficult to do that.

Retired Educator

January 28th, 2012
2:54 pm

The problem with HOPE is that grades have become meaningless. Every mediocre student can achieve a B average in most Georgia schools today. As a retired educator with a large metropolitan school system, I saw first hand how bogus teacher’s grade books can be. I frequently saw grade books that had homework counted as 40% of the total grade and only one or two assignments turned in. I also had some teachers simply type in the final grade without any meaningful assessment. I am sure that my fellow educators reading this will say that this can’t happen today. Unfortunately, it can and is happening. The only way to save HOPE is to tighten up standards. Students should have standardized test scores counted as part of the admission process. Also, difficulty of selected classes should be factored into the equation. You can’t tell me that a student who is taking 2 AP classes along with 3 gifted classes or honors classes should be equal to a student taking tech. classes. It’s no wonder that according to the Gates Foundation that in Georgia out of every 100 students only 6 graduate from college and over one third need remedial courses when entering as freshman. The powers that be in the legislature want to reinstate an income cap on HOPE. Unfortunately, this will only allow the most unprepared students access to the scholarship. Two teachers with master’s degrees whose children have excelled by taking all AP and higher level classes would be disqualified because their parents make to much money. Both of my kids went through UGA on HOPE scholarships. My wife and I both worked full time and had a decent income but by no means were we considered upper class. Even with our moderate income, our children would be excluded from any scholarship money. I see this move to dumb down the HOPE program as one more example of the politically correct mentality that has become prevalent in our society today.

Gail

January 28th, 2012
2:56 pm

Sorry to bore you with numbers but this is needed for perspective.
The inflation adjusted income of $100k in 1994 is about $152K so $140K seems to be a reasonable number, although $66K in 1993 equates to $103K in 2011 dollars.
My concern is how are they going to determine a family’s income? Will it be actual salary or will it be W-2 wages? We have health care premiums as well as 401-K contributions deducted from our pay.
ow will that figure into the calculation of our income for HOPE purposes?
Also what about family size and situation? In 2007, when my oldest started looking for scholarships, many scholarships had income caps of around $50K without regard to family size. A family of 2, 3 or 4 at $50K is no more financially needy than a family of 6 w/income of $75K.

As Lee has said, the real answer to the HOPE troubles is a reimbursement plan. It should first be awarded as a loan converted to a grant if grades are acceptable.

BS Aplenty

January 28th, 2012
3:05 pm

@Lee,

Your second point about the rise in college costs is analagous to the rapid rise in housing prices that occured during the 1990’s through mid-2007. The period when mortgage policies were being liberalized in government. At that time you could get housing money a lot more easily particularly when FNMA and FHMLC liberalized their mortgage purchase policies. Then, the wall of mortgage money (student loan money?) was cut off. What happened? Hous ing prices collapsed, mortgage defaults rise, MANY people who purchased homes during that period found themselves underwater on their mortgage and pondering what to do. Answer, walk away. Even people who purchased the right way still suffered from price collapse and had a hard financial choice to make. I applaud those who have continued to honor their debts and understand those who made a rational financial decision and walked away.

What will happen in the secondary education market is similar: you’ll see enrollments decline and a shrinkage in the funds flowing from students and the question is where will the additional money to fund operations. There will be significant downsizing at the secondary education level unless we can “import” students.

And the students who graduate with $50 – $80,000 in student loan debt and a liberal arts degree will not be able to afford a mortgage, new car or any significant consumer expenditures and will likely be looking at Mom and/or Dad to provide living quarters just when the value of Mom and Dad’s home has tanked.

All thanks to government intervention.

Barackisha

January 28th, 2012
3:35 pm

Sen. Carter is proposing another new entitlement program. And many of those ‘needy’ students who would get the free HOPE ride, e.g. Atlanta Public Schools grads, are in college on the strength of ersatz high school grades and diplomas based on cheating and social promotion.

How about this quid pro quo Senator: every year my kid is disqualified due to means testing I get all the free Georgia Lottery tickets I want?

Ashley

January 28th, 2012
3:38 pm

Why does everybody assume that these students who are legally adults, has to have their tuition paid by parents? An excellent student shouldn’t be penalized because his or her parents yearly earnings. The HOPE scholarship should be based on academics and the SAT/ACT. No one student should be entitled to it, they should earn it….period!

Hillbilly D

January 28th, 2012
3:47 pm

A year later, flush with lottery revenues, the state eliminated any cap on HOPE.

There’s your problem in a nutshell. It’s typical of state government, or has been in my lifetime, to think that when times are good, it’s never going to end and spend every available dime. They never think about saving for a rainy day. I don’t guess they’ll ever learn to put something up in times of plenty; the lean times are always sure to come.

carlosgvv

January 28th, 2012
4:11 pm

Does Jason Carter actually believe there’s any chance whatsover that state Republicans will act in a responsible manner? If so, I guess he hasn’t been in the State Legislature very long.

Hillbilly D

January 28th, 2012
4:18 pm

Jason Carter is the grandson of a Governor and President; I’m sure he knows how the game is played.

Kingredneck

January 28th, 2012
5:09 pm

Everyone continually overlooks the obvious problem with HOPE: The original percentage of sales of lottery tickets that was to be used for HOPE was 40% or more. After the first year, “A year later, flush with lottery revenues, the state eliminated any cap on HOPE.” Everyone ignores the fact that each year the Georgia Lottery Commission takes a higher percentage (approved by the legislature)and cuts the percentage going to HOPE until now they only paid out 13% of sales into HOPE. These figures were provided from the Governor’s office and printed numerous times in the AJC during 2011. Cut the crooks at Ga. Lottery Commision down to 10% like it should be and they won’t have those $250,000 (and larger) annual bonuses for most employees. Then once again HOPE will be flush with lottery revenues.

the prof

January 28th, 2012
5:20 pm

income cap = a new republican voter.

td

January 28th, 2012
5:46 pm

Maureen or any of the other advocates for the cap:

How much money would it actually save to have a cap and would this savings actually ensure the Hope is solvent and can pay the bills? How many children are receiving Hope right now that have parents making over the income limit? Also, how would Carter’s plan handle divorced families income? Parents are no longer obligated to support children beyond the age of 18, so what if one parent chooses not to contribute, does that income count like it does with the Pell grant?

catlady

January 28th, 2012
5:55 pm

I disagree with the cap. If it is a merit award, it should go to ALL who show the required merit. However, the definition of merit here is a bit flimsy. ALL HOPE scholarships should be tied to ACT/SAT. Otherwise, we are getting too many pigs in a poke in addition to the rough gems. And let’s award the HOPE to a different Lottery Corporation, since this one seems unable to do the math and correctly remit to the fund the correct amount! Ms. Downey, does the Lottery Corp or its administrators make significant contributions to the election of state officials? Time for a different group to move in and take over!

The logic has been too circular, too self-serving: We need to keep back more of the lottery proceeds instead of remitting to education so we can sweeten the pot with more winnings. These additional winnings/participation result in us (the Lottery Corp executives) getting more bonuses–by using the money that should be going to students to sweeten the pot!! HOw can this be allowed?

td

January 28th, 2012
5:58 pm

catlady

January 28th, 2012
5:55 pm

I disagree with the cap. If it is a merit award, it should go to ALL who show the required merit. However, the definition of merit here is a bit flimsy. ALL HOPE scholarships should be tied to ACT/SAT. Otherwise, we are getting too many pigs in a poke in addition to the rough gems.

We agree on another issue. Is the world coming to an end?

Megan

January 28th, 2012
6:47 pm

I know several OUT OF STATE kids who are on HOPE. Bump them off first.

Megan

January 28th, 2012
6:49 pm

The Democrats ran this state so poorly for so long; that it seems that people will now allow the Republicans to do anything. We need a 2 party state.

A dad

January 28th, 2012
6:52 pm

Hmmm, pay out more than is taken in. Sure sounds like the Democratic gov’t model to me.

Atlanta Mom

January 28th, 2012
6:57 pm

At this point, all I want is a formula that will be in effect for the next ten years so parents can plan.

Gerald

January 28th, 2012
7:11 pm

Republican fraud conservatives and virulent racists:

You guys truly are pieces of work. First off, HOPE is an entitlement program whether it is means tested or not. Social Security and MediCare are not means tested (everyone over a certain age gets it) and it is still very much an entitlement program that is running us broke. And surprise, surprise: the Tea Party “Patriots” and other folks who allegedly want “smaller government” very much want their Social Security and MediCare, and only want the size of government reduced via programs that they don’t benefit from.

Second, the idea that “middle class students need help because poor students already get enough grants” IS A LIE. IT IS A LIE. First of all, middle class students in other states seem to be able to pay for college just fine without Hope. If middle class folks in Missouri, Texas, Michigan, Ohio etc. can pay for their own kids’ education, Georgia folks can too. Second, the grants that low income students get are NOWHERE NEAR enough to pay for college. Pell and SEOG grants only pay for a fraction of the cost of going to college; low income kids have to borrow the rest. Even then, many of them can’t afford college.

Third, it is amazing how so many “conservatives” are so quick to play the race card at the drop of a hat. Well bigots, the truth is that there are far more low income whites attending college in Georgia than low income blacks. There are also far more whites getting HOPE and taking remedial courses than blacks. Further, it isn’t just the mostly black urban school systems that are low quality and do a bad job of preparing kids for college: plenty of mostly white rural systems have the same problem. And for all the talk about how black kids are unqualified for college but have been socially promoted or what have you, IT HAS LONG BEEN DOCUMENTED THAT SUBURBAN SCHOOLS BEGAN INFLATING GRADES LIKE CRAZY SO AS MANY OF THEIR GRADUATES WOULD QUALIFY FOR HOPE AS POSSIBLE. That is the dirty little secret that nobody talks about.

Republican “conservatives” don’t want to cut government programs in general, just the government programs that they don’t benefit from and don’t like. What you guys really want is a return to the old south, where the government acted to benefit some people but gave everybody else the short end of the stick. Well, that is why this black man is a Ron Paul supporter. So what if Ron Paul wrote a few racist newsletters 20 years ago … I’d take that over how Newt Gingrich treated his ex-wives (and how he profiteered off Freddie Mac) any day. (Plus Paul is a doctor, unlike Gingrich who has never had a real job, he has been a professor, a politician or a lobbyist all his life). Paul is a REAL small government guy who will end ALL these programs that “conservative” hypocrites only want to primarily benefit themselves. Only Paul’s agenda would result in a level playing field – or close to it – for everyone, black, white, rich, poor, urban, suburban, rural, whoever. Of course, it still wouldn’t be perfect, but no system is perfect because despite what the liberals and the neocon hypocrites tell you,people aren’t perfect. But it would be a lot better than what we have now. And yes, Ron Paul would absolutely HAMMER Obama in November, as he is a great debater and doesn’t have the string of ethics problems that afflict Romney or Gingrich.

But you all don’t want a REAL conservative like Paul. You want a fake conservative who will continue to use the government to your benefit while keeping everybody else down. Newt Gingrich will give it to you, Romney will too if that is what he has to do in order to get elected, so you fraud Jim Crow neocons will vote for one or the other. And another thing about Ron Paul: he won’t go start a war in Iraq so he can give hundreds of billions of dollars of taxpayer money to his buddies in the defense and oil industries like Halliburton, the Carlyle Group, Blackwater, etc. All that money was handed away in NO BID CONTRACTS, most of it for WORK THAT WAS NEVER DONE. And none of you Jim Crow neocons complained, because so long as it is your own people ripping off the Treasury you don’t care. Not a single “Tea Party Patriot” has stated that we should prosecute Bush, Cheney and all those contractors for ripping off hundreds of billions of dollars, but mention Solyndra and the same folks go nuts.

Ugh. In conclusion, HOPE is an entitlement program, and I really want for it to be ended if for no reason other than ending the lottery, because relying on gambling revenue is HORRIBLE economic and social policy. I am a former lower income person who paid for my own education without a dime of lottery money, and for that I am very glad. (One of the jobs that I worked to pay for my school was at a convenience store in a bad neighborhood, and 95% of the sales were lottery tickets, alcohol, tobacco and pornography. Ugh! I was VERY GLAD to leave that place for a more respectable job unloading trucks. Lottery money is just a step above blood money.) And GO RON PAUL. End ALL these entitlement programs so this “using the power of the government to help me and harm you” stuff will end. First the Department of Agriculture policies crushed the family farms in this state, and now HOPE is doing the same thing to high school and college education. Government is for protecting a country from being invaded, and for catching and punishing criminals. Anything beyond that, government does more harm than good. Fraud neocons, go read Romans 13 … it says government should stop evil (meaning criminals and invading armies) not pay your kids college when A) you have the means to pay for it yourself and B) you don’t need a college degree to earn a living – and a good one – anyway. So go Ron Paul, and end all these welfare programs, entitlement programs, all of them!

Atlanta Mom

January 28th, 2012
7:21 pm

Whatever the legislature decides in April, it should be “written in stone” for four years for students entering college in the fall.
It is unfair for students who may have decided upon a Georgia school because of HOPE to now have it pulled out from under them to the tune of $10,000 a year.

The Phantom

January 28th, 2012
7:28 pm

Hey Jason, I’ll tell you personally the next time I see you, but since you don’t seem to hang out with many folks since you got elected that may be awhile.

Your idea of a cap on the Hope is something I would expect from someone who is trying to make a name for himself in the Democrat Party. (Oh wait, seems you already got that covered…). Blame the Republicans, engage in class warfare, so that you can be a shining star to all those future Democrats. That is how the process works, right? Convince the young that only the Government (and the Democrats) care about their needs?

You want ideas on how to save Hope? Here is a few:

-No person who must take remedial classes upon entry to the University system can receive Hope. Period. The Hope is supposed to be a SCHOLARSHIP for above average students, not an ENTITLEMENT so that everyone can try out college.

-Speaking of trying out college, why don’t you charge those people who come to the university for their freshman year, spend all year doing beer funnels and smoking bowls, and end up losing Hope with their 1.5 GPA? What are you doing to re-coup those cost? This may be a small population, but it does exist. Nothing like subsidizing failure…

-As others have already alluded to, pleas investigate the University System and ask them to explain their increases in tuition, student fees, housing, etc since the Hope was instituted. It is fairly easy to raise your rates when you basically have free-money coming in, a la Hope. You want to decrease costs? Stop building all of the “like to haves”. They’re supposed to be getting educated, not living in their own reality show.

-In the same vein, take a look at the text-book racket. From anecdotal discussions, this seems to be where many students have problems. I know I purchased many books that were $150+ at the beginning of the semester, and you were lucky if you received $50 for it later. It’s also amazing how many professors write their books that end up being used. Really, does basic math formulas change? Does Ancient History change year to year? How about grammar? Why should it cost over $500 a semester in books alone?

-Unless I am mistaken, there is nothing in the Georgia constitution that says the state of Georgia must give free college education to high school students. A scholarship is like a bonus at work: you hope that the combination of your hard-work and your company’s success will allow your bonus to be paid, but there is nothing that says the bonus MUST be paid. Politicians like yourself need to stress that Hope is a scholarship, not a guaranteed pay-out. I know it’s not in a politician’s nature to tell the truth, but please try.

On a more abstract discussion, please tell us Jason Carter why you & your party hate successful people? Why do you hate the middle class? Why must successful people be treated differently & penalized by the government? Aren’t we supposed to be all equal citizens under the law? Why must Democrats always try to keep folks down on the plantation, where only the benevolent master (government) can help them? I have a whole group of folks at work who would love to speak with you about the Hope and ask you these same questions.

(*BTW, I watched your youtube video where you pitched this speech in the Gold Dome. I would just like to say that I have never heard that Southern accent on you before. What the hell was that? Playing to the camera/audience? Or do you really slip into a Southern accent every now and then?)

Janet

January 28th, 2012
7:39 pm

I also agree with Lee and as a parent of 2 future college students, I would support a Reimbersment program. Pulling back tuition costs and using a Reimbersment program is what makes the most financial sense. I realize it’sn ot ideal for some because many really great students will not be able to come up with the money. But the alternative is turning it into an entitlement program.

If they government wants to make it an entitlement program, they should just call it that and stop giving the rest of us false hope (punn intended). But even if they do make it an entitlement program, they still won’t see a return on their investment because of grade inflation causing so many of the disadvantaged kids to be unprepared for college leading to ridiculously high drop out rates. it seems a reimbursement program will work for the most amount.

Seriously?

January 28th, 2012
7:51 pm

To the “Phantom” – a $140k family income cap on a government tuition assistance program is hating “the middle class?” According to the Census, the median household income was Georgia is $49,347 in 2011. I would think being somewhere close to the median household income would be pretty much the definition of “middle class.” I don’t know where he got the numbers, but he says 94% of Georgia families would be under the $140k cap he’s proposing. Assuming that’s true, that’s not a proposal that punishes the “middle class.”

By the way, what do you and others like you on this comment thread think about Republicans (and they’re just about all Republicans) who want to save money on Social Security and Medicare by “means testing” them. Democrats are the ones who resist that proposal. So are those Republicans engaging in “class warfare?”

Ronnie Raygun

January 28th, 2012
7:52 pm

I have to laugh at the people crying that they couldn’t afford to pay for their kids tuition if they put a $140,000 cap on HOPE. If you can’t afford tuition while making $140,000, you have SERIOUS spending issues.
Why should students from lower income families have to go into debt for college because some wealthier families are too dumb to manage their money? If they are that bad with money, their kids are probably too dumb to go to college in the first place.

Gerald

January 28th, 2012
7:56 pm

Janet:

See my diatribe. HOPE is already an entitlement program, just like MediCare and Social Security. Adding means testing does not change that. Also, if HOPE is means tested, they won’t hand out scholarships to everyone below the income limit. You will STILL need the “B” average to qualify. You folks just keep telling yourselves “it is not an entitlement program!” because you want to benefit from it, and want to have some justification for separating it from all the other government programs that you want to cut because they DON’T benefit you. But whether you acknowledge it or not or benefit from it or not, HOPE is an entitlement program. It is a big government program created by a liberal Democrat, Zell Miller. (Miller didn’t go conservative until after September 11th when he entered the U.S. Senate. Before then, he was basically indistinguishable from Bill Clinton policy wise, and he was the single most guy responsible for getting Clinton elected by moving up the Georgia primary to give him momentum.) And even if it wasn’t somehow an entitlement program, means testing it wouldn’t make it one, because you would still need the “B” average to qualify … it would still be based on merit. Just because “everybody” can’t benefit from it doesn’t change the fact that it is still based on merit. This whole “make it income based and it becomes an entitlement program that is a payoff to Democratic Party base” … it is just more evidence that government programs cause division, and need to be ended. Folks were paying for their kids’ college education before HOPE, and they can do so again. Also, you don’t need a college education to be a success and provide for yourself and your family anyway. Used to be that only like 5% of the population graduated from college, even now it is only 25%, and the other 75% are for the most part doing fine, even in this bad economy.

Instead of trying to fix HOPE, we should just end it. Folks should get the Gerber Grow Up Plan or one of the many other college savings plans that are VERY ACCESSIBLE to middle class people, and a lot of working class and low income people can afford it too if they but back in other areas. A lot of those plans are even tax-deductible, like those accounts that the late Paul Coverdell (an actual conservative) used to champion instead of more government, more spending, and more instances where the government gets the power to pick winners and losers like they do with HOPE.

What the heck?

January 28th, 2012
8:26 pm

I’ve got an idea. How about make it a semi-loan program where 50% of the cost is paid back over 10 years with no interest. If a college degree adds $1 million to a person’s earnings over a lifetime like the colleges tout, then that should be a drop in the bucket. If a person does not graduate, then they must pay back the full amount.

What the heck?

January 28th, 2012
8:29 pm

Nice comments, Ronnie. One the other hand if low income parents are “too dumb” to get a high paying job then, I guess their kids are probably too dumb to go to college anyway, right?

Guest

January 28th, 2012
8:38 pm

Why don’t we get rid of HOPE altogether and allow student loans to be discharged in bankruptcy to put downward pressure on the price of college?

Gwinnett Parent

January 28th, 2012
8:41 pm

Enter your comments here

Foghorn Leghorn

January 28th, 2012
8:46 pm

The problem is the ignorant masses are wising up to the probabilities of winning the lottery and they are choosing to spend what little money they have on things like food and housing. Either that or they have absolutely no money at all. What we need is to find another way to part the fools from their money.

Gwinnett Parent

January 28th, 2012
8:50 pm

When a person goes to college, they are an adult. When the student graduates, the loans belong to them, not their parents. Why are we considering a student’s parent’s income, when most times the student is the one paying the bills? I paid my way through college and so did most of my friends. Just because a parent has a higher income does not mean they will pay for their child’s college education.

BOB FROM ACCOUNT TEMPS

January 28th, 2012
8:51 pm

HEY SEN CARTER – HOW ABOUT A CAP ON RISING TUITION COSTS FOR HOPE RECIPIENTS!!

Sam

January 28th, 2012
9:11 pm

Jason Carter is irrelevant. His opinions and proposals are going no where so demogogery is easy for him and his fading democrat buddies.
Jason is so weak that his granddaddy had to temporarily renouce his anti semitic opinions to help get Jason elected.
Means testing hope will kill the political support for the lottery.
Pretty pitiful all ’round

AJW

January 28th, 2012
9:12 pm

Be very careful about income caps for divorced families. Many parents are no longer responsible for their kids after 18, but that parent who is no longer responsible might make a large sum of money, and make it impossible for the child to go to college. No, you can not force a parent to pay for college. The same with defining a household income for blended families, it is not the step-parents responsibility to pay for a step child’s education, and that child should again not be penalized for a large household income. Finally, sure it might be the right thing to do, but the truth is that most financial adviser’s will tell you that you should save for retirement and not pay for your childs education, they are correct. WHy should you spend $150k for college, when that same money will be better invested, unless of course your children are going to promise to pay for your retirement.

Gerald

January 28th, 2012
9:25 pm

Gwinnett Parent:

Oh please. A person going to college isn’t an “adult”, especially when lots of folks go to college at 17 anyway. The drinking age is 21, and many states won’t even allow a female to get married without her parents’ permission until she turns 21. Also, parents have traditionally borne the cost of college education. The reason for this is that 17-18 year olds have not been in the workforce for 10-20 years earning income and saving money, and do not have the means to pay for college themselves. My goodness, parents cover their college student children under their medical insurance plans, and NOW you want to call them adults?

Look, HOPE is going bankrupt, and for all you partisans out there, it is doing so despite the GOP having run this state for over 10 years. There needs to be SOME WAY to limit the spending on the program. Reading the comments on the previous page, it seems like the most popular way among likely GOP voters is to find some way to stop HOPE from going to blacks. Sorry, but a little federal law called the Civil Rights Act makes that impossible. (I am not making this up, go and read all those racist comments on page 1). If not income caps, what other way to you propose (that doesn’t violate the civil rights act like the GOP commenters want)?

This is the truth: HOPE is just another divisive big government program that ends self-reliance. Middle class and upper class Georgians had no problem sending their kids to college before Hope. But after only 20 years of that government welfare program, folks have gotten lazy, addicted to the government cash with an entitlement mentality just like the Section 8 housing residents, folks on WIC and food stamps, and all the other welfare recipients. That is what it is, a welfare program, and folks who get it are welfare recipients. Period. Plus there are the negative effects that it has on education. Kids stopped taking challenging courses and started taking easy ones to get the ‘B’ average, even though taking challenging courses is the way to actually prepare for success in college and flunk out. And lots of schools – especially the ones in the suburbs – began inflating grades right and left to get all their kids free rides into UGA, KSU and what have you.

It is bad economic policy (relying on volatile lottery revenues), bad educational policy, bad social policy, and what is more it is a liberal big government welfare program. Folks used to set up college savings programs, education IRAs, trust frunds etc. Stuff like that helps the economy. Thanks to HOPE, middle and upper class (and poor) families are relying on the government, and using the money to buy an extra SUV, flat screen plasma TV, an I-Pad for every member of the family or other nonsense. No wonder our economy stinks and all the banks are going broke. All HOPE has done is extend the Great Society welfare state mentality and lifestyle from the poor to the middle and upper class.

HOPE being broke needs to be precisely the excuse that we need to end the program, and the lottery with it. And they aren’t even stopping with the lottery. Now they are talking about allowing slot machines and casinos. Once you open a door on letting the government use a social ill as a revenue source, it is very hard to shut it. Next thing you know, they’ll be legalizing cocaine, heroin and prostitution so we can tax it. Would you support that so long as the proceeds went to HOPE so you wouldn’t have to get an education IRA or trust fund? And to think that this is the Bible Belt … then again most Georgia GOPers support Newt Gingrich, so why am I not surprised.

HOPE, a divisive liberal big government program. It should be ended, not mended.

Gerald

January 28th, 2012
9:31 pm

AJW:

Now you are just making up stuff. HOPE relies on household income. A non-custodial divorced parent’s income is no more considered for HOPE than it is for filing tax returns. Blended families: ditto. You assume responsibility for the children along with the marriage contract. If you don’t want to assume financial responsibility for the children of someone else, then don’t marry someone who already has children.

College is a privilege, not a right. Low income people have always understood this. Thanks to HOPE, a generation of middle and upper income Georgians have grown up believing college to be an entitlement. That is what liberal big government does. If you can’t afford college, join the military or get a job. Don’t look for the government to come bail you out. End this “government is the solution, not the problem, except when I personally benefit” mentality. That is precisely the mentality that is bankrupting this country and ruining it culturally right now.

Sam:

If means-testing HOPE ruins political support for it, then PLEASE means-test HOPE, because that liberal big government Democrat welfare program needs to GO.

catlady

January 28th, 2012
10:12 pm

td, ya never know! I guess we are both right!

arff

January 28th, 2012
10:44 pm

You gotta love this crew. Most of the folks on here against the income cap probably don’t even play the lottery. Yet they don’t seem to have a problem with trying to exclude the very folks that make it possible for their kids to receive the Hope scholarship.
The other bit of irony that you see with this kind of crowd is their willingness to exclude “minorities and the disadvantaged” from programs like the Hope scholarships but have their head in the sand when the state spends a ton of their tax dollar incarcerating those same students once they break the law. It’s my understanding that the states spend a whole lot more to lock someone up than to educate them. It would seem that the you guys on here clamoring for the “minorities and disadvantaged” to be left out of the equation would be 100% behind any effort to educate them and keep them out of jail.
This crowd also seems to be the same folks that go on and on about folks needing to work and to stop being lazy. Yet when they want to better themselves you find fault with that as well. There is just no way to please these narrow-minded complainers.
Gerald hit the nail on the head when he called you folks out!

AJW

January 28th, 2012
10:50 pm

-Gerald – I was responding directly to Sen. Carters income cap proposal above. You read to much into it. As for fiscal responsibility, I fully disagree with you. I put myself through college, and so have my children with HOPE, the loans they took for living expenses added up to approx $24k each, that is the cost of a decent car. I can tell you they look beleive that we did the right thing now that they are out of school. They took there studies very seriously and all have (in this economy) have finished school and all of them have full time jobs with benefits. Two schools of thought, the first is to “protect” you kids, the second is to “Prepare” your kids. I will always vote for Prepare your kids.

old school

January 28th, 2012
11:03 pm

The sad part of this whole thing about hope is the poor and the elderly put a great deal of the money into this program. If you don’t believe it go to a place that sells lottery tickets several days in a row buy a cup of coffee and just hang out and watch a sad sad thing take place. You see people so hooked and under the spell of this games believing that the next ticket that they buy will make them rich beyond their wildest dreams and at the same time the government telling these same people it’s just a game and to play responsibly. The thing is THEY CAN’T BECAUSE THEY ARE ADDICTED. What it amounts to is the people that send a lot of these kids to school is the one’s that can lest afford it. The ones on welfare,food stamps and fixed income. Wise up people if you put the money you spend everyday into a fund you would have no problem sending your sending your kids to school believe me i have witnessed the large amount of money people put into these games. If you don’t believe the government hasn’t created an addiction just put your eyes to work and see what goes on. People get in there car daily and go store to store buying tickets thinking this gives them a better chance of winning. People are being dumbed down daily by the government.

bob

January 28th, 2012
11:08 pm

Just another way for Democrats to screw over two parents working for a living. We are not rich by any standards, but make at the 140k mark. Both kids have worked hard to get hope. Daughter is at UGA finished 2nd in high school class. She has a brother who is in his 2nd year at high school and doing a decent job. To once again subsidize a selected few because of income, I am getting sick of it. Daughter was accepted at Yale and Dartmouth to play softball. Still would have costed us 30K/yr.If we made under 75k, she goes there for free. I am so sick of the welfare programs which penalize the middle income guy. This is the problem (one of many) in this country…rewarding failure.

William Casey

January 28th, 2012
11:26 pm

@GERALD: Your 9:26 post is largely a mean-spirited collection of random untruths. HOPE is not an “entitlement.” My son EARNED it by maintaining a 3.71 GPA at Northview HS, one of the best public schools in Georgia. No, he didn’t take easy courses, he EARNED 27 hours of college credit through AP courses. He’s a Zell Miller scholar doing dual degrees (Mathematics & Philosophy) while working as a tutor 16-20 hours per week. HOPE is NOT a “welfare” program. It is an investment in the future. Get serious!

PS: household income currently has nothing to do with HOPE as you state in your 9:31 post. Bizarre.

Lee

January 29th, 2012
12:07 am

@Janet, re “I also agree with Lee and as a parent of 2 future college students, I would support a Reimbersment program. Pulling back tuition costs and using a Reimbersment program is what makes the most financial sense. I realize it’s not ideal for some because many really great students will not be able to come up with the money.”

If a student is low income and could not afford the initial upfront tuition payment, they can easily get a student loan. If they make good grades, they get reimbursed and can apply the HOPE reimbursement to the next semester tuition and not have to take out a loan for subsequent semesters – just keep rolling it forward. They would maintain one semester’s worth of tuition as a loan balance and can pay it off upon receipt of the final HOPE reimbursement.

Now, I realize the timing might be off and the student might have to take out a loan for the second (and subsequent) semesters. In that case, when the student gets the HOPE reimbursement, they simply remit it to the student loans.

Same effect, either way.

Lee

January 29th, 2012
12:23 am

Many companies offer tuition reimbursement as a benefit to their employees. My company did and that’s what I used to obtain both my undergrad and MBA degrees.

Very simple. You pay your tuition up front and when you get your grades, you submit them for reimbursement. My company had a scale, 100% for an A, 90% for a B, and 80% for a C.

A reimbursement program for the HOPE Scholarship has several advantages:
- As I said earlier, it forces the participants to “have skin in the game.”
- Eliminates grade inflation pressure at the high school level.
- Doesn’t penalize students who take A/P classes and make a B
- Very simple to administer. If you can get into college, you qualify for HOPE. No more of this high school GPA plus SAT/ACT score or “Zell Miller” hoops to jump through.
- Doesn’t penalize the students who enroll in a difficult course of study and make average grades. Yes folks, at one time, a C was considered average….
- And finally, it discourages the casual student who goes for a year, has bad grades, and drops out. They can still do it if they choose, but either they or mom and dad pay for it.

To me, making HOPE a reimbursment program makes the most sense – which is why the Legislature will never go for it….. Are you listening Jason Carter?

Foghorn Leghorn

January 29th, 2012
12:30 am

I think bob is a perfect example of why we should end the lottery. Po’ folks subsiding upper middle class folk. That’s just wrong. If you make over $100,000 a year and can’t afford to send your kids to college, maybe you should trade in the “Beamer” for a Ford and cancel your country club membership for a while. And if any other company had commercials that grossly over-estimated the results you could expect from their product, then they would be sued and cited for false advertisment. End state sponsored lottery now!

Paddy O

January 29th, 2012
12:34 am

GSU mom- if you are hauling that much $$ in, why is you son borrowing the dough? And why is it so expensive to go to GSU? Stop pretending you have a right to the gravy train – when the funds are low, they should go to those who NEED, not those who prefer not to spend their own money.

Paddy O

January 29th, 2012
12:36 am

Janet – please women. Get a grip, there is not adequate grant money, which is why the less well off need the assistance. What a delusion.

Paddy O

January 29th, 2012
12:37 am

another comment – you are utterly full of it.

Paddy O

January 29th, 2012
12:47 am

a lot of liberal pollyanna going on here. You can’t spend more than you take in. So, how do you divvy up what you take in? Provide it to those merit scholars who need it. Since education in GA is so immoral apparently, you must factor in objective evaluations – SAT/ACT. The 140 seems a little high, but it is a start. I think SS & medicare should be means tested. Far too many of you folks have entirely too high expectations, and seem to think that money grows on trees. GA MUST balance the budget.

Paddy O

January 29th, 2012
12:50 am

It would be nice if the legislature created a committee to study why STATE schools annual cost is so high. Perhaps too many folks in administration?

Really amazed

January 29th, 2012
3:04 am

This has gotten way out of control. I would have to agree with BOB, parents are being punished for working hard. Students are being punished for parents working hard. What does this teach our kids? This teaches them that you will be rewarded if you sit back, don’t challenge your self, don’t bother taking challenging classes. As far as the top 3% of each high school, all schools are NOT created equal. Some don’t even class rank! So, sick of this low income c—!!!!! Reward the best and the brightest my a–!! The gov’t wants to keep rewarding poor behavior and poor decisions. Welcome to the new AMERICA! This entitlement concept is about to start a revolution. People came to America because it was the land of opportunity. Now it is just going to be the land of mediocrity. The government has no place in the lottery program. This is not a gov’t progam!!!!!

AtlPh40

January 29th, 2012
4:17 am

Different proposal here – I’ll run for the State House against John Lewis if enough people like this:
If the recipient makes less than a C in a given course, then the HOPE money becomes a low interest loan for that course. Other courses where the recipient scored a C or higher remains scholarship money. At least there would be some penalty for going to college, taking the money and not working on a degree. This would also make people think twice about taking the HOPE if they were not serious and compel those that do to take advantage of this gift.

Concerned Teacher

January 29th, 2012
5:49 am

Here is an idea. If the students do drop out of college their first year or lose hope in the first semester, then they need to repay the scholarship money because they did not meet the expectation.

ScienceTeacher671

January 29th, 2012
6:18 am

Others have already said what I think, but I’ll reiterate anyway:

1) The lottery was enacted to fund education, not to enrich the Georgia Lottery Corporation. A certain percentage of the proceeds was supposed (but not mandated) to go for educational purposes, but the GLC has only paid the full percentage for a couple of years of its existence, and has paid huge bonuses even when it “couldn’t afford” to pay the full percentage to education, its stated purpose.

First, the General Assembly needs to mandate, not suggest, the percentage that must be paid for education, and if GLC can’t do what it’s supposed to do, get someone who can.

2) We have a large percentage of students who lose HOPE after the first year, and a large number of HOPE scholars who can’t attend academic colleges without remedial courses. What percentage of students needing remedial courses actually (a) retain HOPE and (b) finish college?

I think SAT scores should be a factor in determining HOPE eligibility. Retention rate would be improved, or at least expenses cut, if HOPE were structured either as a reimbursement program, or as a student loan that would be forgiven as long as the required grades were maintained.

3) Yes, colleges have raised tuition, quite dramatically. In part that’s because the General Assembly has cut its allotments to higher education, probably assuming that HOPE would make up the difference and people wouldn’t complain because the higher costs weren’t coming from their pocketbooks. Don’t know about the rest of Georgia, but down here in the Coastal area, all the colleges have lots of nice new buildings, too.

Some sort of cap on tuition increases would be helpful, both in maintaining HOPE and in keeping students, undergraduate and graduate, who don’t have HOPE.

cheating the system

January 29th, 2012
7:15 am

I graduated high school with a 3.3 GPA and scored a 1300 out of 1600 on the SAT. I took around 16 AP classes; my high school was on a block schedule so I was able to take 8 AP classes my junior year and as well as my senior year. Did I want to take the AP classes? eh, didn’t matter. I just took the AP classes for the extra boost that went toward your GPA. Where a “C” would have been a 2.0, it showed a 3.0 instead. Where a “B” would have been a 3.0, it showed a 4.0 on my report card. Depending on my mood/teacher’s teaching style/amount of work required for the AP classes, I would either slack off big time or try my bestest knowing that I could never receive anything lower than a 3.0, but potentially get a 5.0 for any particular class. I didn’t take any of the AP exams at the end of semesters because I didn’t want to study for those AND for my finals at the same time; too much brain power usage. So, teachers, mothers and fathers, AP classes don’t mean $#@%. They no better prepare students for college than regular or honors classes. BTW, I’ve had a number of friends that were “too smart” for the regular classes and that cheated the system by getting “A”s in every class in high school. Many of those friends went to extraordinarily good public institutions and are now currently working for GE, Home Depot (Corporate), one is working on becoming a dentist, etc.. So, basically regular/honors/AP classes don’t really amount to anything. If students even put an iota of effort into actually opening a textbook, no matter if they are white/black/hispanic/asian, they should get decent grades.

Anyway, I ended up going to Ga. State and graduated with a Management and Accounting degree in 5 years. While I was attending, Hope covered my tuition in full, subsidized my books, AND, here’s the kicker, the pell grant paid me an average of $3,000 per semester. I just looked at this extra $6k a year as Ga. State paying me to attend their crappy school. Either way, my dad made around $40k a year and was able to pay for my last semester of college even when the economy hit the fan.

So to all of you “middle class” bigots that make over $100k, all of you “i make over $140k but still can’t afford to pay my children’s tuition, room and board, and textbooks because i also pay their credit card bills, car payments, insurance payments”, like some people have suggested, work on your finances. Maybe you can find me sometime in the future because i’ve taken some personal finance classes and can give you tips on how to better manage your money. To all of the po’ black folks out there hoping to strike it rich with the lotto, thank you for paying me to attend college and keep trying, y’all will win big one day. Or y’all can just “fight the power” and stop playing altogether and really put the bigots in a pickle. Whatever y’all decide to do, doesn’t concern me since i’ve got my degree already

I’m not here to only spew venom on everyone, if you’ve been able to sit through my finely written post, i’ll send you off with advice concerning a loophole in the HOPE system…. HOPE pays for about 129 hours worth of classes. You can actually use up 128 hours and use that 1 remaining hour to cover an entire semester’s worth of classes. That should save you anywhere between $5k to $20k … price of tuition is seriously ridiculous, and getting worse…

nelson

January 29th, 2012
7:28 am

HOPE is sending the wrong message. The message is that education funding from a sinful activity[gambling]is ok, not good at all. Education should be from the hard work and effort of the student himself. I was aghast when I saw how much money had been used from the lottery[between 3 and 4 billion dollars] That money could have gone to buy food and clothes for the gamblers family. Bob Schiffer said[and if Bob said it, I believe it] that the populace has become coarse in their lack of sevility to the high office of President. Gambling does that, people become insensitive and uncivil to others.

College Dad

January 29th, 2012
8:54 am

•Our feeling is The Hope must continue to be performance based for each student and available to every Georgia family of those hard working students.
•Our children and all of the states students should understand that through achievement, there’s reward. The reward for our high school achievers is participation in the Hope. They strive to obtain eligibility and want to assist their parents with funding of their college education.
•Some families like ours have three children and we count on the Hope.
•We have two in our state universities today. On top of the Hope, we still spend about $12K per child into the state system. If the Hope is pulled for families who’ve worked hard and find themselves positioned above the proposed bar, then we’ll have to spend about another $11K annually (current HOPE funding). So for two kids in the state university system we’re looking at $24K + $11K or $35K annually for the two. Our third child will begin college in 2013. Then the number will jump by almost another $20K for a total spend of $55K annually for our three children in the state educational system.
•336 could drive many of our students to Out of State Universities. Our children and many of our friend’s children did qualify for scholarships out of state that virtually equaled the Hope funding. But, they chose to stay in state and support the educational system in Georgia.

•I’ve heard several of our state officials mention the Hope in the same sentence as “entitlement”. The Hope has never been a handout or is guaranteed for every student. You have to work.

•When the HOPE Scholarship changed last year, many high school students who worked hard to attain the required 3.0 GPA lost the scholarship when the requirement jumped to 3.7 and college students were affected by their requirement jumping from 3.0 to 3.3.

•As parents, we should all strive to find a way to fund our children’s education and not allow them to start their professional lives with massive loans strapped to their back. That’s immense pressure on a 22 year old who’s trying to build a future for their selves.

•It’s about goals and hard work and that prepares them for the future in a very competitive world.

MiltonMan

January 29th, 2012
8:55 am

Jason Carter = will be a failure just like his grandfather & it is starting to sound like he is more moronic.

“First, the governor’s budget calls for the HOPE programs to pay out more that they take in — again”

Is Jason’s Deli really this stupid??? He is a democrat – the tax & spend party

“In addition, the current plan fails the hard-working, high-achieving students who depend on HOPE, and the plan ultimately harms our state’s economy.”

Fails hard working students??? Why don’t you come up here to North Fulton/East Cobb & tell that to the evil rich students who comprise the best high schools in this state. Please tell that to our rich little son who is according to your stupidity “not hard working” yet was able to get into dental school at MCOG.

This might fly well in the dump known as DeKalb (remind us how great the schools there are Jason)

joeybiten

January 29th, 2012
9:00 am

Enter your comments here

a reader

January 29th, 2012
9:01 am

Probably too far down in the comments to be seen but ….

If you keep changing the rules will you at least start grandfathering the program? Current seniors / college students should at least be playing by the rules as passed last year – don’t change the game mid-way, again. Please.

WRT private schools and GPA: my daughter’s class GPA has 56% with a 3.5 or over, but this needs to be qualified: a) this is note a HOPE GPA, in that it includes all classes, academic and non-academic, and b) this is not a HOPE GPA, in that AP “A” grades are given the 0.5 bump (which HOPE doesn’t do). So honestly, I doubt that this school is bumping grades up for HOPE. Given the average ACT and SAT scores, I just think the kids work hard and study hard.

And most of the students in her school don’t stay in GA. Looking at the list of colleges from last year’s graduating class, while a fair number go to GA Tech or UGA, most of the class appear to go out of state. But if you want to reward the best and brightest so they stay, don’t exclude the best and brightest who come froms high schools with track records of good college performance.

MannyT

January 29th, 2012
9:04 am

The senator said Our plan also reforms the Miller Scholarship to provide it to the top 3 percent of every high school, regardless of income. The best and brightest from every Georgia community would get a full scholarship, and the Miller Scholars would be spread throughout the University System, making it a truly statewide program

Take this basic concept and make it the HOPE program. Adjust the percentage based on what the state can afford. (Top 3% for class of 2012. If economy gets better, it’s top 5% for class of 2013.) If you lose it in college due to low grades, you don’t get it back.

All this blog chatter is on things to protect your interests. HOPE is rapidly running out of money. We come up with a way to help across constituencies or HOPE will go away for ALL.

joeybiten

January 29th, 2012
9:05 am

all them rich people got thems money illegally…and everyone making over $60K is real rich. thats why all of them should be exempted from hope…i also think their gas and electric and water and trash and just everything should cost them more cause ther rich not like us poor people.
obama and the democrats will give us everything we need…

D in ATL

January 29th, 2012
9:16 am

Why don’t the numbers 5-2-9 appear anywhere in the blog posting or comments? You respond to your positive pregnancy test (shock, glee, horror, whatever), you coo over the ultrasound, you struggle through labor (or provide support), and IF you aspire for this child to go to college, go to http://www.path2college529.com and contribute a little bit every month for the next 196 months.

Dee

January 29th, 2012
9:22 am

Based on the comments regarding HOPE, is Warren Buffet the only rich person who wants to pay his fair share in this country? Because the folks in Georgia don’t believe they should pay for anything if there is no benefit to them…Two thousand years ago Jesus said, “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” (Mark 10:25 NIV)

Justwondering

January 29th, 2012
9:24 am

College Dad and others

Did you save for college or did you presume HOPE would be there? Did you even plan for the contigency that your child might need or want better than a Ga state school? In more than 40 other states, there is no Hope type program and kids still go to college.

I believe that GA families have used the existence of Hope as an excuse not to save.

apm

January 29th, 2012
9:24 am

Let me see if I understand this, if a student from a government designated “wealthy” family takes care of their responsibility to study hard and make good enough grades to qualify for HOPE they will be punished because their parents worked hard to make enough to be government designated “wealty”? Is not this another example of our governments punishing hard work?
Also, do not these same government designated “wealthy” people already pay more in state taxes that fund these state institutions of “higher learning”?

bootney farnsworth

January 29th, 2012
9:32 am

when, oh when, will this ongoing nightmare called the Carters go away?
please stick to the many good humanitarian works you do, but leave the thinking to responsible adults.

bootney farnsworth

January 29th, 2012
9:37 am

@ just

not sure where you’ve been the last four years, but this little thing called the economy tanked. many people lost jobs, had incomes cut, and had expenses blow through the roof.

note: gas is up nearly .50 in the last month alone.

more people than you probably realise have had to make choices
like food or the kid’s college savings.

real life is messy. and 8 years of Bush and 3+ of Obama have
created the worst mess since the depression

Traci

January 29th, 2012
9:39 am

If the income cap and the change in the Zell Miller requirements are passed, when would they go into effect? Fall Semester 2012? Any change that is instituted immediately and effective in the upcoming school year is absolutely cruel. You’ve got to give parents and students a chance to figure out how they are going to make up any loss in benefits. Plus, the Lottery Board and the Universities can’t institute changes that quickly.

Re. the comment that those who exceed the income cap don’t know how to manage their money, that’s the flaw with an income cap. The assumption is that you’ve always been making that level of income. I was laid off in 2008, started my own business in 2009. My income was $12,000 in 2009, $66,000 in 2010, and will probably exceed the cap in 2011 (although what’s the cap based on? Gross income, adjustable gross? Is it just salary or does it include investment income (think Mitt Romney)?) My point is the cap is arbitrary and doesn’t mean that people can pull $7-8,000 out of the air. That is why people need more than a few months to make up the loss of benefits. Or there needs to be a graduated decline in benefits or students currently in college should be exempt from these changes,

It appears this is going to become an annual ritual…what bandaid can we put on HOPE this legislative session?. Parents and students will have to pray the merit requirements don’t become more demanding or the income cap doesn’t drop (dream on). And if their benefits do drop or disappear, they’ll have about 7 months to scramble to make up the difference.

We need a real leader who will take on the overhaul of the HOPE scholarship program so that it is a long-running, viable program. Someone who will take a good hard look at the program, define its purpose (merit-, income-based, or both), determine how to fund it for the long-haul, and set out guidelines that parents can depend on whether their child is 7 or 17.

bootney farnsworth

January 29th, 2012
9:41 am

if we’re really gonna go all Darwin about this, the we should be
putting a priority on educating the children of $200,000 households
and above.

they’re the ones most likely to actually graduate, get jobs, and
maybe someday create jobs for somebody else

South Ga Administrator

January 29th, 2012
9:43 am

Between @Lee, @FCS, @William Casey, @Bootney Farneworth, @em, and a few others here I think we could develop a working solution for HOPE. I have long touted the benefits of a semester-by-semester reimbursement for a student earning above a 3.0. Reimbursement, first must be a capped amount. This would hopefully move students into selecting one of the other 35 University of Georgia system colleges located around the state. Students could still earn a degree at a cost which in most incidences would be cheaper than UGA or GT. A student could still attend UGA, however they would be responsible for the cost over the capped amount. After all, when someone else is paying for your education…. Second, the reimbursement would be scaled to the 3.0 – 4.0 GPA per each semester. A student earning a 4.0 at the end of a semester would receive 100% reimbursement (up to the cap). Earn a 3.9…student receives a slightly smaller percentage, down to a student earning a 3.0 receiving the smallest reimbursement. No reimbursement(s) would be paid out for remedial courses. this plan would end the concerns of inflated high school grades, SAT scores, and even the students partying on the states dime.

bootney farnsworth

January 29th, 2012
9:45 am

@ Traci

2 problems

1-we gotta do something now, and due to how bastardized this whole situtation is its gonna hit somebody hard

2-your idea is great, but has one fatal flaw. decent leadership at
the state level

bootney farnsworth

January 29th, 2012
9:55 am

@ South Ga admin

UGA remains the elephant in the room. since most of the legistlators went there, and live a very unhealthy proxy life via the football team,
they’re not gonna do anything which might even be percieved as disadvantagous to UGA.

and since most kids in this state grew up thinking it is the only place to go, UGA gets a disproportionate amount of everything.

not knocking UGA itself, its an overall great school – and its not their fault most of the elected officials in this state would kiss Ugga
square on the mouth if they could.

but its not the only fish in our sea, and any long term effective change requires people come to grips with that.

bootney farnsworth

January 29th, 2012
9:58 am

I’d not stop HOPE for remedial classes – consider APS, DCSS, and Clayton’s self immolation – since so many kids were pooped on by the
very people charged with helping them

but I would limit it to 2 year and tech schools only.

Scott

January 29th, 2012
9:59 am

Perhaps Mr. Carter and his colleagues should take a look at the institutions of higher learning and what has happened over the last ten years. Tuition and fees at the University of Georgia have increased by 156% over the past ten years for residents of the state and by 89% over the past five years alone. Tuition and fees were $3418 for the 2001-2002 school year and are $9472 for the current school year.

It is clear to see that as the esteemed leaders of our General Assembly cut budgets to the University System, those cuts were passed on to the taxpayers of Georgia. No reform to HOPE will allow it to keep pace with the greed of these institutions of higher learning.

em

January 29th, 2012
10:02 am

Part of the problem with HOPE running out of dollars is that not all grades are created equal. Some schools grade on a 4.0 or 5.0 scale and some schools grade on a numerical/percentage scale. Grading probably needs to be more transparent and uniform. Also, It is my understanding that any course taken in the core area counts toward HOPE. For example, at the high school where I teach, students are offered sociology and psychology as social studies electives; both are relatively easy “A’s” and count toward HOPE. In addition to making HOPE a reimbursement program as suggested by Lee, tie HOPE to EOCT scores. Grant HOPE to only those students who pass the EOCT with at least an 80 and make at least 3.0 in the EOCT course.

Regular Joe

January 29th, 2012
10:13 am

The Hope is running out of money folks. Things have to change.

Some of the same people who are say it’s dumb for folks to just depend on Social Security to retire, are some of the same people dumb enough to depend on “HOPE” to pay for children’s whole tuition.

The Hope is a helpful program, but it’s shaky. It depends on gambling revenue. You trust that?

The income cap – I don’t think we should do it, unless it’s a real high number, like $500,000 or above. You could punish folks with lot’s of children. We need to encourage folks to have the chilins.

The program has to benefit the whole state, not just metro Atlanta – As someone mentioned take the top 5% of each school and give them a full tuition Hope. If your kid can’t make 5% at the current school, move to another if you need the money that bad.

3.0 average – The rest of the college Hope funding is set aside for children with a 3.0 average. That could be 75%, 60%, 30% of tuition or whatever is available that year. The payment is only made after Suzy or Billy complete the first year of college, with a 3.0 or above average. They don’t keep the grades up they get nothing that year, but if they get the grades up, they can get the money the following year.

The first year, unless you are one of the 5%, you or your kid pay everything initially. If they keep the grades up, you’ll get a percentage back at the end of the school year.

Save for your children’s education, it may be a good idea for them to have a part time job and spend less too. Be happy to get some lottery money, but don’t depend on it.

Steve

January 29th, 2012
10:14 am

What’s evident from this blog are two things I think we can ALL agree on. First, moving forward the program should be treated as a loan default system. If a student does not meet the requirements in his/her freshman year, then the scholarship reverts to a loan. A lot of kids already take out loans already, so this concept should not be foreign. Secondly, and more importantly, the legislators need to STOP changing the rules year to year. I have one son in college now and one to enter shortly. I think I could live with almost anything they come up with, but the changing rules year in and year out make it very stressful for all concerned. Possibly each graduating class could be grandfathered in for their four years of college, and if the rules change again, the next class at least will know what their particular rules are.

bootney farnsworth

January 29th, 2012
10:22 am

@ scott

costs at state schools have shot past Pluto, but not necessarily for the reasons people think.

based on first hand observations at my little corner of the USG:

1-first and formost, costs went up due to HOPE. since the State pays and the consumer feels the effects last, schools had no incentive to keep costs down.

2-the current crop of USG presidents are engaged in the most disgusting “Mine’s Bigger” contest I’ve ever seen in multiple
decades in higher education. instead of working hard to
provide the best possible education within their means, these
bozos are empire building

classic case: Georgia Perimters Atlanta Center for Civic Engagement and Service Learning. built at an estimated cost of $1,000,000 at a time when furloughs were going on and against the wishes of the students.

can you say resume booster? I knew you could.

3-out of control technology acquisition. laptops everywhere, smart classrooms everywhere, no effort at all to get value for dollar out
of anything considered sexy.

4-sports. why the hell does Ga. State and Ga. Gwinnett have football teams? more, why does any two year school have ANY sports teams?

5-pomp and circumstance run amok. Ga. State having graduation at the dome? THE DOME? for that matter any school having graduation off site.
massive manditory gatherings for Presidents to strut and preen about how wonderful they are.

and all these self serving MLK events? King woulda much preferred all the time and money spent on showing the world how much we can – ready now – actually being used to do something like staff a soup kitchen.

at the end of the day it all comes down to out of control egos.

em

January 29th, 2012
10:24 am

That should have read “..at least a 3.0 in the EOCT courses.”

bootney farnsworth

January 29th, 2012
10:27 am

just so everyone’s clear.

do not kid yourself about the purpose of higher education in Georgia.
it is NOT to educate the next generation.

it is about self promotion. of the state, of the Presidents, of the
sports teams, of individuals.

any actual education of students is a accidental byproduct. and not
necessarily a desired one.

College Dad

January 29th, 2012
10:28 am

@”Just wondering” or is it “wandering” through life. I assure that we have saved for college from week one for our childrens college education. But, don’t make it about that. The issue is about the kids who work hard and deserve a shot at the Hope. Lower and higher income families with hard working and high scoring students both deserve access to the Hope. The income bar will drive some of our brightest students to attend out of state schools on academic scholarships. If that’s the case, so be it. The Dems will be the cause. The simple answer would be to hike the price of a lotto ticket to $1.25 per ticket. Studies show that if someone currently pays $1.00, they certainly would pay $1.25. It’s unfortunate to see so many uneducated and ill prepared parents. I wish the best for all of our students.

catlady

January 29th, 2012
10:36 am

I’m afraid the calls to make it a retroactive loan program would be hard to put in place. How can you legally provide a scholarship and it becomes a loan–you have to have a loan document signed, and, most importantly, contracts based on coersion are not enforceable.

Also, moving HOPE eligibility even MORE to the college level means even more dropping of classes, which leads students to take longer to graduate, which means longer students are being supported by us taxpayers (to the tune of thousands of dollars per semester per student.) We need to have programs in place to SPEED students graduating–to motivate them to get the degree and get out (not to water down the degree).

I graduated from undergrad in less than 3 years in 1973. At that time there were NO AP credits available. You could “challenge” a course by CLEP, which I never did. So how did I finish in 3 years? I took overloads (frequently 6 courses a term) and went in the summer. I took one term off from Sept. 1970-August 1973, graduated with a 3.69. We should have more kids do that!

My own two college grads did it in 4 years. No “extra” terms. They were in private colleges and had to get done! We should have more “carrots” or even some “sticks” to make this the norm! These kids on the 5-6 year plan are costing us far too much!

Our legislators need to look at the big picture, instead of all thse piecemeal approaches that they come up with without talking to researchers here who have a fundamental understanding of how this all fits together! Woulda, coulda, shoulda, I guess.

So sorry to disappoint you

January 29th, 2012
11:01 am

Entitlement program
The kind of government program that provides individuals with personal financial benefits (or sometimes special government-provided goods or services) to which an indefinite (but usually rather large) number of potential beneficiaries have a legal right (enforceable in court, if necessary) whenever they meet eligibility conditions that are specified by the standing law that authorizes the program.

I mostly agree with Gerald that the Hope is an entitlement program and it’s the worst kind. It takes from the poor and gives to the not so poor. As you can see from the definition above having or not having means testing has nothing to do with being classified as an entitlement program.

So you “high horse conservatives” need to dismount and come to the realization that you too want entitlement programs when they benefit you. You are no different from the poor and unfortunate when it comes to these programs except you don’t NEED them.

We are fortunate to be above the cap proposed by the Senator and I have no problem with the cap. My kids (6,9) will be able to attend the college of their choice (if they have the grades) because I am planning for it now while they are young. I have 529 plans for both and have been contributing to them since their birth. I don’t spend more than I make, I live in a modest home, I drive a car that is 11 yrs old and my wife’s car is 6 years old.

These are all choices we made because we value our children’s education more than “THINGS”. If you make more than $140k a year you should be able to pay for your childrens college expenses.

BTW- Although I’m over the proposed cap I make less than $175k/yr. Just in case you made the assumption that I was “rich”.

flipper

January 29th, 2012
11:07 am

Kids of parents who make over $140,000 are kids of job creators. Kids of job creators often become job creators themselves. Maybe they only comprise 6% of the population… but they probably employ 75% or more of the population.

Turn HOPE from a merit program to an entitlement program and watch the job creators move elsewhere. The colleges here in GA just don’t have enough cache to keep people with means around unless they offer a carrot. Take away the carrot and UGA loses reputation and Georgia loses jobs.

Jason Carter is as dumb as his dad.

South Ga Administrator

January 29th, 2012
11:44 am

@College Dad…I hadn’t thought of it until I read his comments, but why not increase the lottery ticket cost….haven’t they stayed the same price since 1992? Would dividing up mega lottery wins draw more interest? As in 2007’s $390 million where one person wins, instead draw 195 numbers, give each $2 million, they pay their taxes and are left a little over a million…195 millionaires. Just looking out of the box.

Dr NO / Mr Sunshine

January 29th, 2012
12:03 pm

Yet again we hear from the tired ole Carter family. The rotten apple doesnt fall far from the tree.

William Casey

January 29th, 2012
12:14 pm

SOUTH GA ADMINISTRATOR’s post above is on the right track. I’ll add that making the first year of HOPE a loan/reimbursement program would help. If a student “makes the grade,” it’s a grant; if not it’s a loan. This might also give pause to the parents of kids who slide into college because they have nothing else to do. Those guys aren’t “scholars.”

flipper

January 29th, 2012
12:41 pm

Interesting… Looking at Jason Carter’s district, I’d venture to say that a very large part of his constituency (the ones that have money to donate to his campaigns) make more than $140,000. He must be trying to not get re-elected.

South Ga Administrator

January 29th, 2012
12:47 pm

@William Casey…I put my two cents in at 9:43 today on reimbursements. However, your twist to convert from a HOPE grant to a student loan is a great great (2 greats) idea. Somebody get Senator Carter on the phone.

bootney farnsworth

January 29th, 2012
1:12 pm

to all the parents of rising college students, from
someone who’s been in the system a very long time.

1-two year schools are amazing. some basic Fresh/Soph classes for
relative pennies on the dollar. UGA and Tech wil still be there.

2-there is just as much fun -often times more- to be had at smaller
schools

3-beyond the very few, the most benefits from the name schools come from grad school.

4-freshmen are more likely to get in trouble (academic, personal, sexual) at a big school than a small one.

5-the costs of higher ed are not gonna stop rising anytime soon.

GA parent/teacher

January 29th, 2012
1:29 pm

Many people forget that colleges are actually getting by on less total money now than they did 10 years ago. The General Assembly gives less money to the University System of Georgia every year. To make up for less money from the General Assembly, the University System of Georgia raises tuition.

Consider also that for many years the General Assembly treated the Hope Scholarship Fund like it was an unlimited source of money for pet projects.

Shannon

January 29th, 2012
1:33 pm

Maureen, is there ANY way you can do a blog on the decreasing funding by the state legislature for our public colleges? People keep complaining about the tuition rising, but it’s because the funding keeps dropping thanks to our Republican “no more taxes on anything no matter what” legislature! Why isn’t anybody making this connection?!

Shannon

January 29th, 2012
1:33 pm

Thank you, GA parent/teacher!

Shannon

January 29th, 2012
1:39 pm

@catlady: I teach mostly freshman at Georgia State, and I don’t see the partying kids glibly withdrawing from classes. What I do see are the overextended kids–the ones who are trying to work at least one full-time job in addition to going to class and who therefore feel like they shouldn’t have to do homework for more than an hour or two a week.

People don’t like to hear this, but when you’re in school, school is a job. It should be your primary job! This “working your way through school” implies that you really just need a piece of paper to get a better job and are doing your time until you get it. Not so; you need to be thinking… making those connections between disciplines… talking to others who are studying as well… expanding the mind, growing the brain, slowly gaining awareness of what it means to be an educated citizen.

The world will be better off if people in school focus on school and don’t spend the time trying to figure out how to convince their professor that it isn’t their fault they absolutely couldn’t be in class for the test because Olive Garden changed their shift at the last minute or they have a big project due at their job.

Lee

January 29th, 2012
2:15 pm

@Shannon, re: “People don’t like to hear this, but when you’re in school, school is a job. It should be your primary job! This “working your way through school” implies that you really just need a piece of paper to get a better job and are doing your time until you get it.”

Sorry, but you need to climb down from the academia ivory tower and walk around the “real world” for awhile. I was a nontraditional student for both my undergrad and MBA degrees. My first priorities were my family and my job. Students who work full time jobs and go to school don’t do it because it is a great way to pass the day – there is a reason.

And yes, most of us go to school because we see it as the pathway to a better job, which translates into higher pay so that we can provide for our families in a better way.

I returned to school for my MBA after about 12 years in corporate. My impression was that most professors didn’t have a clue about how businesses actually work. All they knew was what they read about in a book.

Prof

January 29th, 2012
2:31 pm

@ Shannon. 1:39 pm. I agree completely with your comment that “school should be the primary job” of the college student, but would add that in college (though perhaps not the high schools these freshmen attended) the student is expected to study about 1-2 hours a night PER CLASS in addition to going to the classes. If the student doesn’t have time to do the assigned reading, then he or she shouldn’t be taking the course. Learning involves a lot more than being spoon-fed the material in class lectures.

@Lee. Maybe you need to climb outside your work-cubicle for awhile. There really is more to education than rules for corporate businesses.

bootney farnsworth

January 29th, 2012
2:41 pm

@ Shannon

you’d not see Ga. State students partying to excess- you teach at Ga. State. unless there has been a massive demographic change in the last 5 years the average State student is a bit older and working.

there’s a reason the greeks have rooms, not houses.

faculty don’t like to hear this, but most students have to work to afford the cost of their education. especially at State.

bootney farnsworth

January 29th, 2012
2:45 pm

@ Shannon

in what universe do college students not have to work anymore?
perhaps instead of pontificating about college being a full time
job, you might wish to spend some energy on making a more workable
courseload for your students.

bootney farnsworth

January 29th, 2012
2:47 pm

@ Shannon

if you don’t feel you’re taxed enough, please feel free to surrender
your income et al to the state.

bootney farnsworth

January 29th, 2012
2:52 pm

@ Ga techer/parent

much truth in what you say, but one thing is missing.
while the idiots downtown give us less and less each year,
what we’re given is squandered on pet projects by the
idiots who run higher ed.

until the USG starts putting real and worthwhile guidelines
and restrictions on how colleges spend their monies, nothing
is gonna change.

if you give the current crop of idiot presidents 100 million additional each, they’d plow it right into the resume builder of the hour – not into classroom considerations

bootney farnsworth

January 29th, 2012
2:58 pm

kinda funny how some faculty seem to have issues with the idea of working students going for a degree so they can get a better job.

most ignorant thing I’ve seen in some time.

why the hell else do some of you think people go to school
in the first place? to keep Shannon and such employed?

to get skills to improve their lives. ie, better jobs.

God above, no wonder the idiots downtown don’t take us
seriously

Prof

January 29th, 2012
3:02 pm

@ bootney farnsworth, 2:41. Yes, there HAS been a “massive demographic change in the last 5 years” at Ga. State (along with many other significant changes). As of Spring 2012, the average undergraduate age is 24 and the average Freshman age is 19. Stop pontificating as if everything stopped 5 years ago when you looked last.

@….2:45. Sometimes students have to work while in college. Then they shouldn’t be taking a full time course-load…if they still expect to get good grades. The burden is on the student to learn, not the teacher to accommodate by making the class easier.

bootney farnsworth

January 29th, 2012
3:03 pm

here’s a newsflash for far too many:

we exist for the students. the students don’t exist for us.
if modern times require us to find different ways to teach
working students, we adapt.

we don’t make snarky comments about their jobs and belittle
them for doing what they have to do to keep body and soul
together.

but I suppose snark does give them an education of a sort.
lets them know what faculty really think of them.

bootney farnsworth

January 29th, 2012
3:10 pm

@ prof,

actually, last time I was on campus was about 18 months ago.
sorry, things haven’t changed that much. nice try, however.

ask your students about how many can afford to go full time.
most can’t.

newsflash – if you don’t work with the students to deal with
where they are in life, they eventually vote with their feet
and you find yourself looking for meaningful work elsewhere.

the burden of the faculty is to work with students to educate
them. that doesn’t mean the class is easier.

bootney farnsworth

January 29th, 2012
3:12 pm

I do agree that working students should have realistic expectations
about what they can expect both in workload and grades.

the same way faculty should have realistic expectations on what
working students can realistically achieve.

catlady

January 29th, 2012
3:32 pm

Shannon, I agree. I think there is the attitude that “what I want” is all-important. I was fortunate–I did not have to work during my undergrad career, so I took overloads instead, and finished in less than 3 years (no such thing as AP then). As a single adult mother with 3 small kids, I was full-time student in my master’s and PhD programs, but was fortunate to get very nice grad research assistantships that allowed me to be involved in career-building opportunities on campus–no flipping burgers. We lived very simply for that 7 years. Some times things were very tough for us. It was a sacrifice worth it, however.

I DO think that working students have to cut back on their studies, if they can’t seriously cut back their work hours. College is all about hard work, consuming much time outside of class. It is not up to the college to cut back its expectations. How colleges CAN help is to provide classes during varying times of day or varying days. It is then up to the student to fit themselves and the requirements for college-level work together.

Soccermom

January 29th, 2012
3:52 pm

@Gerald
You are wrong. It is possible for low income students to get through college with only the programs you mentioned. I did it. I used Pell and SIG. I had a few small scholarships the first year – our guidance office was useless . I also went to a “jr” college for two years, lived at home all 4.5 years, and had a part-time job. Luckily, I didn’t need really high undergrad grades to qualify for a graduate position (or medical school or law school) because, while my grades were acceptable, paying the bills did lower the grades somewhat. I only took out a small loan my last semester of undergrad.

HOPE isn’t an entitlement program in the true sense of the word. HOPE is not tax funded. Noone is required to pay the lottery. Anyone who is unable to afford to play and still does play is simply paying their “stupid tax”.

If I understand the history of HOPE, there was an intention to keep the brightest students in Georgia for college so they would stay after college. I believe it is also intended to provide the educational equivalent of “gap insurance”, helping the middle class student who is not eligible for Pell and other grants designated for lower income students and whose family income is not sufficient to simply pay out of pocket. My family is in this last category and I assure you it is not a “LIE” as you state. We are scraping to pay the tuition, fees, and living expenses not covered by HOPE without taking out student loans. My child aspires to go to medical school and needs the highest grades he can achieve so I have asked him not to work during the semester and I don’t want him to have undergrad loans heaped on top of the massive debt he will have from medical school.

For those of you who simply say “get a job” to these kids in a snarky tone of voice, has it occurred to you that many of the jobs that kids worked in our day are sought and held by adults in our horrid economy (like construction and lawn-care)? And many employers, when you tell them you are a college student at an out-of-town school, simply won’t hire you because they want a long-term employee even if they are less capable than you are.

Dr NO / Mr Sunshine

January 29th, 2012
4:06 pm

Here’s an idea. You want a college degree? Get a part-time job to pay fot it because you probably are gonna flunk out.

Dr NO / Mr Sunshine

January 29th, 2012
4:09 pm

Lets be realistic. Most have no business going to college. They are as out of place at college as a fish out of water.

Prof

January 29th, 2012
5:08 pm

@bootney farnsworth, 3:03 pm: “if modern times require us to find different ways to teach working students, we adapt.

we don’t make snarky comments about their jobs and belittle them for doing what they have to do to keep body and soul together.”

Sorry, no matter what your rhetoric, I still think that a college student should complete the work in a class just like everyone else, and not receive special consideration for working (or being a mother/father of small children…the list of excuses can go on and on). Everyone in the class should play by the same rules, and completing all of the assigned work is the first one.

The “snarky comment” seemed directed at students who think they shouldn’t have to do all of the classwork, instead of taking a lighter course load.

I’m answering this at length because I’ve heard this sorry student excuse for not doing as much work as assigned for over 25 years, in 3 different states. Basic advice: DON’T TAKE A FULL COURSE LOAD AND WORK FULL TIME! (Unless you want to take at least 6 years to graduate, with a C+ or lower average.)

GA parent/teacher

January 29th, 2012
5:35 pm

Some of you on this blog are calling HOPE an entitlement program. Well I can’t think of anyone more entitled to receiving the HOPE scholarship than my three kids. They all worked hard in school and made good grades. They all took the AP and Honors classes in high school to be prepared for college. They all scored high on the SAT. They all graduated from college. They all are working now and paying taxes in Georgia. And yes, they all have student loans that they pay on every month because HOPE didn’t cover all their college expenses.

I am grateful that the HOPE scholarship has provided my children and thousands of other deserving students the opportunity to go to college. I can remember Senator Frank Eldridge, Jr. talking with a group of students in the senate chambers at the capital building telling them that the HOPE scholarship would be around for them whenever they went to college. The members of the General Assembly need to use some common sense as they look at revisions that will insure that this wonderful program is around to benefit all students who deserve the opportunity to go to college here in Georgia.

Prof

January 29th, 2012
5:37 pm

@ bootney farnsworth, 3:10 pm: ” actually, last time I was on campus was about 18 months ago.
sorry, things haven’t changed that much.”

Actually, you prove my point. Shannon was writing about the freshmen she teaches, and I gave the Spring 2012 figures taken from GSU’s own website–they’re abt. the usual age for freshmen, 19. But you’re generalizing from walking around campus when you saw a mixture of all the students, including graduate students. How do you know you were seeing freshmen?

Gail

January 29th, 2012
5:46 pm

In case anyone is interested, google “HOPE recipient Income demographics.” It should return one item. Download the PDF and go to page 16 of the file ( it is page 12 of the document.) This shows the FY 2010 breakdown of family income for HOPE scholars by college. This study was done before the Zell Miller scholarship but it gives you an idea of the family incomes of all HOPE scholars.

Geezer

January 29th, 2012
6:04 pm

The income cap should absolutely be restored. Under the current system, you have the lowest-income group in the state (who are the folks who actually buy most lottery tickets, scratch-offs, etc.) subsidizing the highest income group, who can afford to send their kids to college and will regardless. Many may see a sense of justice in that, since the higher-income folks already support a basket full of government programs for low income types; however, society as a whole can benefit from helping deserving, but financially strapped kids get an education.

Another thing that would be a huge help to HOPE: Stop letting the Board of Regents use it as a piggy bank. Tuition is increasing much faster than the rate of inflation, and yet colleges and universities do not seem inclined to take steps to get it under control. Need more money? No problem! Raise tuition, and HOPE will automatically increase to help the kids take care of it!

Hillbilly D

January 29th, 2012
9:12 pm

Saw some interesting things while reading through the report mentioned in Gail’s 5:46 post.

By County, the highest percentage of HOPE recipients in the county, with household income over $200,000:

Fulton 12%
Fayette 9%
Forsyth 8%
Cobb 7%
Oconee 7%
Clarke 6%
Columbia 6%
DeKalb 6%
Gwinnett 6%

Highest percentage of Hope recipients with household income over $200,000 by school
Emory 18%
UGA 18%
GA Tech 17%
Oglethorpe 11%
Savannah College of Art & Design 11%
Agnes Scott 10%
Berry 10%
GA State College & University 10%
Mercer 10%
Medical College of GA 9%

HS Public Teacher

January 29th, 2012
9:56 pm

I think that the core question that needs to be answered is….

Should HOPE be geared towards merit (go to students with high scores), or should HOPE be geared towards need (go to students from economically disadvantaged households)?

Once this question is answered, then the rest can fall into place.

Truth in Moderation

January 29th, 2012
11:19 pm

Limiting Hope to the top 3% in a school might have some problems. GSMST is the top SAT scoring public school (charter) in the state. Last year’s grads scored an AVERAGE of 1920+. This is 200 points higher than the next top scoring school. Because it is a charter, the school draws students from many clusters in Gwinnett. I could see students who weren’t in the top 3% by 11th grade transferring to their home cluster high school for their senior year so they could easily land in the top 3% of that school.

Dr. Craig Spinks/Georgians for Educational Excellence

January 30th, 2012
2:06 am

Has any competent, disinterested, out-of-state entity scrutinized the efficacy of the income cap-free HOPE in increasing the proportion of HOPE-financed graduates who elect to remain in GA following their graduations?

Jeeva

January 30th, 2012
2:41 am

Thank you,your information is very useful .JEEVA

ScienceTeacher671

January 30th, 2012
6:20 am

I got my M.Ed. using the Teacher HOPE scholarship, before they ran out of money for that. Basically, it was structured as a loan, but if one taught for 2-3 years (can’t remember which) in Georgia after completing the degree, the loan was forgiven. The undergrad HOPE could certainly be structured similarly, so that if one didn’t make the grades, one was required to pay back the loan.

But I still think the first change that needs to be made is to require the Georgia Lottery Corporation to remit a fixed percentage of the proceeds, and tell them if they can’t do it, the state will find another company to run the lottery.

The purpose of the lottery is to fund education, not to provide bonuses for GLC officials.

mountain man

January 30th, 2012
6:26 am

I don’t think HOPE should have a cap on family income, instead, it should have a floor on the SAT score to receive it. Too much grade inflation has turned every student into “the best students”.

JF McNamara

January 30th, 2012
6:27 am

The caps too low. College expenses are much higher than 1994 making it tougher for higher earners to pay for college. Modify the cap by increasing it with the inflation in college cost.

Also, why don’t we use tiered aid. For instance, 100% for salaries under $50K, 75% for salaries under $75K, 50% for people over $100k. It doesn’t have to be all or nothing.

JF McNamara

January 30th, 2012
6:33 am

@mountain man,

SAT scores would heavily favor the best schools. If you want a test with no bias, give the kids a pure logic based IQ test. I’m not for basing a kid’s future on vocabulary words he may not have seen or math problems that he may never have encountered.

catlady

January 30th, 2012
6:46 am

JF MC: got a test in mind? The thing about your objection to the SAT is that a kid who doesn’t have those vocabulary or math skills is not likely to do well in college.

One sentence of Ms. Downey’s lead-in is incorrect: In 1993, HOPE was limited to students from families earning less than $66,000 a year.

Actually, in 1993 and for several years thereafter, the HOPE was limited to students from families earning (approximately, depending on family size) 25,000-66,000. The truly low income kids DID NOT GET HOPE. Everyone wants to forget this travesty. And after the upper cap “went away” the lower cap continued for a year or two, as I recall!

mom3boys

January 30th, 2012
7:12 am

Here are a couple of ideas from my son, the engineer:
*realize some majors are more difficult. An engineering major takes harder classes than a PE major…much harder to maintain higher GPA for HOPE. Put that in the formula.
*also, some majors require more hours…don’t cap the number of hours when you didn’t take fluff courses..engineers and pre med and several others have additional course requirements.

bob

January 30th, 2012
7:54 am

Lets just give the poor everything and make the democrat party happy. What if a bright kid wants to go to school but his parents will contribute nothing, why should he/she be penalized ?

Inman Park Boy

January 30th, 2012
8:36 am

Once again it is the middle income people that get hurt the most.

Soccermom

January 30th, 2012
8:38 am

I fully agree that some method of differentiation between hard classes like accounting, calculus, chemistry, etc. and the “gimme” classes should be devised. It seems unfair that the GPA requirement for these two levels of classes would be the same.

The “tiered” aid idea looks like it could be an acceptable compromise for many of us.

I also agree with the comment about grandfathering in current students. It is unfair to change the rules mid-game!

@ MAUREEN

January 30th, 2012
8:38 am

how many students on HOPE actually graduated from college as compared to how many on HOPE dropped out?

Cindy Lutenbacher

January 30th, 2012
8:50 am

I totally support this plan. Way to go, Jason!

Dr. Craig Spinks/Georgians for Educational Excellence

January 30th, 2012
9:11 am

In September 1963 when I entered Augusta College(now Augusta State University), my father gave me a blank check to use to pay for my first quarter’s schooling. To pay for a full load that Fall Quarter 1963, I wrote Augusta College a $55 check which included a student activity fee.

Fifty-five dollars was not a typo, friends. What’s happened?

Clueless

January 30th, 2012
9:40 am

In 1963, gas was about 25 cents per gallon, too, right?

howard jharlow

January 30th, 2012
9:41 am

this is big time greed at its best u who claim you cant get hope money my intellect tells me base on national stats u dont even play lotto. receiving hope was intended for those play lotto by choice in hope that their child would receiver n monies back for college put in regular get something back fair is fairt greedy one.

howard jharlow

January 30th, 2012
9:41 am

Enter your comments here

howard jharlow

January 30th, 2012
9:42 am

greedy none playing lotto people

williebkind

January 30th, 2012
10:12 am

My son is attending Augusta State University. He will not get the HOPE. I am sure he will be in debt for many years to acquire his education. Once he graduates, I demand he gets a very high paying job! After all, you keep telling our young kids go get a degree and life will be great. It does not matter if you have skills as long as you have that degree.

Mountain Man

January 30th, 2012
10:20 am

“SAT scores would heavily favor the best schools.”

SAT (and ACT) are used by colleges to judge who is best prepared and has the best chance of completing a degree. That is why they should be used for determining HOPE recipients.

“I’m not for basing a kid’s future on vocabulary words he may not have seen or math problems that he may never have encountered.”

Sounds like he graduated from th APS where he was “socially promoted” all the way up through school. Probably has had some serious grade inflation, too. Would have to have lots of remedial studies (like a lot of people here, I don’t think HOPE should be paying for remedial studies).

Mountain Man

January 30th, 2012
10:25 am

“Once he graduates, I demand he gets a very high paying job! After all, you keep telling our young kids go get a degree and life will be great. It does not matter if you have skills as long as you have that degree.”

After he graduates, he should at least be able to GET a job. You have probably seen the numbers: unemployment for those with college degrees – 5%, those with high school diplomas 10%, high school drop-outs 25%. Businesses like to see a person with a degree for one simple reason: then they can be pretty sure they can read and write, something a high school diploma does not guarantee.

There are lots of other options than just a four-year degree: two year certificates, etc. Just some indication that your son is hard-working and can make it through a program.

necobbmom

January 30th, 2012
10:33 am

Again, another Democrat asking for something that will penalize those who work hard and are put in a higher tax bracket because of it. The HOPE was designed to keep the best and brightest HERE. How sad that we will water down the real incentives to “spread the wealth” and take it away from deserving students. There should NOT be a cap on income, that has nothing to do with it. It was designed to reward, and incent students to work hard. Soooo tired of these democrats making it all about entitlements.

Leonard

January 30th, 2012
10:46 am

All that happens with income caps is that only the rich or the very poor will be able to go to college. The Middle class will be out of luck. They make too much to get aid, but make too little to afford college for their children.
The simplest way to divide hope is not to give any to individuals. Give it directly to the public colleges. Figure out the total available and then divide it by the number of state residents attending less the number of non state resident attending. This will give the state shcools an incentive to admit state residents. Of course all of this money must come with a provisio of the schools keeping state tuition down.

skipper

January 30th, 2012
10:48 am

Income should not enter into it. Many kids (as hard as this may be to believe) do not get as much help from their parents as one would think. Lots do, but certainly not all. You make the grades, you get the HOPE….period. If everybody would quit trying to gut the funds, their WOULD be enough money!

Manny

January 30th, 2012
11:09 am

HOPE was initially designed to be a path for those kids from lower income households to attend college, period. I remember the reasoning behind it: Most lower income people play the lottery, so their money would go back to lower income households to finance the education of those kids. And I didn’t vote for it back in 1994 when it was on the ballot. Why? Let me tell you:

I knew that the income requirement was going away in a conservative state. I knew back then that it would become what it is now: a ploy for rich people to get free money from poor people to pay for their kids college. Meanwhile, the rules would change in order to make it more difficult for poor people to take advantage of it. It’s classic “Welfare for the Rich!”

But what I didn’t know is that the HOPE scholarship would be used to lure corporate executives to move their residency to Georgia. That’s something that I thought people would read through, but it’s in the package- along with the other tax breaks and incentives that you get when you move your headquarters here. (I talked to a C-level executive recently and he gave me a wink and a nod about it.)

But income was the factor in the original legislation that passed via ballot vote and I think that an income cap should definitely be re-instituted in order to make sure that we keep with the spirit and intent of the thinking behind it’s originality.

C Jae of EAV

January 30th, 2012
11:18 am

There are some basic things we can’t deny,

First, the HOPE program is an entitlement program that was originally introduced as a “needs based” award based on income caps. When the income caps were removed, the HOPE program continued to essentially be a “needs based” award to until the well of money began to seriously run dry at which point the program was shifted to be a “merit based” award in an effort to slow down the rate of growth that was depleting the coffers.

Second, given projected trajectory the HOPE must undergo some changes. Given the history and intense sense of entitlement that this program has conditioned into people, the changes will not please everyone, but then again none of the modifications to the program heretofore have been everything to everybody either so stat quo is the order of the day.

Third, in consideration of all of the aforementioned, I would suggest the following is the most even handed course of action: Hope program continue as a “Merit Based Award” that covers 50% – 75% of tuition based on the level of merit. The award comes in the form of a loan, with a clause to allow for the loan to be forgiven based on the recipients college level academic performance. It should also grandfather eligible recipients as of class of 2011 with new rules applicable for class of 2012 and beyond.

Now who among us would be prepared to support a bill calling for the above as solution to the concern?

yuzeyurbrane

January 30th, 2012
11:30 am

A good set of proposals but will not work because it is not part of more comprehensive reform of education funding. Everything is connected. Tuitions go up because college administrators are trying to make up difference of draconian budget cuts in state educ. spending. Only alternative would be to give up hard won gains in educ. quality. And that is already happening, too, despite tuition raises. Also, state is still spending millions on subsidies of private colleges–e.g. the Baptist subsidy i.e. to Mercer, Deal’s alma mater. Not to mention that part of HOPE still goes to students at private colleges like Emory. Not much for the student, but in the aggregate a significant source of income for cash rich colleges like Emory. Hopefully, this would be mostly eliminated by Carter’s proposal. Grade inflation is also a factor although grades in combo with SAT should minimize that as a factor. Finally, there is the implication that Lottery has hit hard times. Not true. In fact, it had record revenues last year. But it has not provided education the resources it was supposed to. The statutory standard is 35% of lottery revenues to education. But it has been around 25% for many years. That is about a 30% shortchanging of the HOPE program and in the aggregate amounts to billions of dollars. Where has it gone? Too high salaries and perks for Lottery employees? Profligate spending on vendor rewards? Is some siphoned off to the General Treasury as Georgia often does for fees designated for special purposes? The Lottery is long overdue for a thorough audit and for legislative investigation.

Really amazed

January 30th, 2012
11:48 am

Why doesn’t someone or a group audit the lottery???? Because the same people that would audit would be part of the problem. The same group that is probably receiving some of the profits!!!!! We will NEVER know the true story!! Even though this is NOT suppose to be a gov’t program, the gov’t SURE has part in it!! They are the ones determining how the funds are allocated. WHY????? Pure corruption! Must be very careful whom we vote in as next president!!!! We have two choices, capitol or social!!! Work hard or don’t work at all!!! Take your pick.

soon to be college parent

January 30th, 2012
11:49 am

If this happens then the quality of Georgia universities will go back to preHope quality. My high achieving son, who is leaning toward UGA due to financial concerns, will not go there if he is required to pay the full cost. This means he will leave the state with a very low probability of returning for work. A 75% coverage for all would be better than none for those who have worked hard all through high school with the goal of Hope in mind.

MannyT

January 30th, 2012
12:33 pm

Interesting how much “value” many put on SAT scores. One day versus 4 years of HS grades.

The SAT people will tell you
To consider one score better than another, there must be a difference of 60 points between the critical reading and mathematics scores, 80 points between the critical reading and writing scores, and 80 points between the mathematics and writing scores.

Later they state in same webpage…
There must be a difference of at least 60 points between two students’ scores in order for there to be a true difference in ability.

http://professionals.collegeboard.com/testing/sat-reasoning/scores/compare

Now, let me ask you–can a real SAT prep company cannot boost a high school, B avg student’s score 60 points across the entire SAT? That 60 points is roughly changing one wrong answer to right per multiple choice test section.

Putting this together with approximate SAT prep course cost, you statistically change a student’s “ability” level for several hundred dollars. If that’s all it takes to change a teenager’s ability maybe the HOPE $$$ should go here instead of college!

em

January 30th, 2012
12:34 pm

@Maureen,
32% keep HOPE after 90 hours and 52% graduate within 6 years.

Hillbilly D

January 30th, 2012
12:59 pm

If the HOPE program was designed to be for everybody, as some are claiming, why was there an income cap on it, when it first began?

Truth in Moderation

January 30th, 2012
2:31 pm

This is the answer!

If a college awards a student a 50% scholarship, the Hope will kick in the other 50%. What has happened is that the scholarship money raised by the schools is no longer being paid out because of Hope. Schools can then raise their tuition as well, knowing all that FREE money will still come their way. Also, as others have said, if the lottery underfunds the scholarship, FIRE THE LOTTERY CORP. and hire a new one! Or, expect a fixed amount for funding the scholarships, and whatever is LEFTOVER are lottery bonuses! I know for a fact that there are plenty of other lottery corps. waiting for a shot at the Georgia Lottery. It should work like a salesman ON COMMISSION.
The Carter political hacks need to go. This problem can easily be solved HONESTLY. The power players just want to continue to RIP-OFF the sheeple!
WAKE UP CITIZENS! DEMAND ACCOUNTABILITY FOR THIS MONEY! Don’t take politician’s LAME excuses!

Manny

January 30th, 2012
3:17 pm

As I said, the HOPE scholarship was for those who predominately funds it- lower income families. It’s not tax dollars. It’s lottery revenues. And who plays the lottery (mostly?)

I think it should be capped at $100k per family of four. That would put me out, but I’m going to pay for my kids tuition. I mean, why am I working so hard for?

javis

January 30th, 2012
3:22 pm

He might as well be sponsoring a bill to drown puppies.

The single joy of being in the minority party is that you can propose anything you think will sound good to your constituents. You don’t have to seriously consider the consequences of what you’ve proposed when you know that your propositions have no chance of ever becoming law.

Being a Democratic Senator in this state is a cush job. Just stay popular enough to be re-elected by the chumps that put you in the your seat. They don’t even realize they have a voiceless representative.

Mountain Man

January 30th, 2012
4:12 pm

“It’s not tax dollars. It’s lottery revenues”

As you said, this is not tax dollars that are allocated back to the people who pay them (like the gasoline tax), these are lottery proceeds. The basis for the lottery is that some people will gamble no matter what, so let’s create a method of gambling that benefits the State. If they weren’t buying lottery tickets, they would be gambling on football, and the only proceeds would be going to the bookies. Or taking trips to Las Vegas and leaving their money there. They decided to use the lottery proceeds to fund new ventures in education like head start and HOPE scholarship, rather than general education since other states had tried that and the General Assembly just used the tax money for other things and the net amount for education stayed the same. It was NOT designed just for poor people (see the MINIMUM family income in the original). There were lots of other need-based resources available. It was designed to keep the good students in the State of Georgia. Unfortunately, now (because of grade inflation) about half the students qualify as “good” students. That is why I advocate for a minimum SAT score, to weed out the grade inflation. I also advocate for it to be a set amount, to keep tuition form going up so drastically.

Just so everyone knows, HOPE does NOT pay anything close to the full cost of college – it only pays TUITION, not fees, room and board, books (a very heavy expense nowadays).

Save HOPE for my kid

January 30th, 2012
5:39 pm

If the K-12 system is failing our students then push to get the K-12 system straightened out— don’t punish the kids who suffered through the crap education with the goal of college AGAIN. Really?

Anna

January 30th, 2012
5:54 pm

I think instead of capping HOPE they should cap tuition and fee increases for a time, and maybe reduce them. Georgia colleges have taken advantage of HOPE to drastically increase tuition and fees since its inception. According to an archived AJC article in 2010, tuition at GSU has increased 94% since 2005, and many universities increased tuition 15-16% in just one year (2009 to 2010.) Inflation does not justify that! Another AJC article from April 2011 stated, “Georgia students will see their college costs increase by 9 percent next fall, under new tuition and fee rates the state Board of Regents approved Tuesday.” The regents capped the tuition increase at 3% that year but increased fees dramatically to bring the total increase up to 9%.

I attended Valdosta State University (College, then) in the early 90’s when a $2000 academic scholarship was enough to pay for tuition, activities, fees, and (usually) my undergraduate books for 3 quarters/entire year excluding summer. Sometimes I had money left over after buying books! Now tuition and fees there are $6644 for both semesters (excluding summer) and books would probably increase that to at least $7000 a year. (It’s $14,694 per year estimate if you live on campus.) I know tuition there is modest compared to other schools, but I feel that many universities have taken advantage of the HOPE scholarship to increase tuition and fees at rates much higher than inflation would justify.

Hypocrisy at its best!

January 30th, 2012
7:13 pm

It is funny how the Hope Scholarship is an “entitlement” for those making under $140,000 but a deserving reward for those making above $140,000. Welfare and food stamps are entitlements but corporate tax breaks, capital gains tax breaks and subsidies are beneficial “programs”. It is funny how the Hope Scholarship is an “entitlement” for those making under $140,000 but a deserving reward for those making above $140,000. Welfare and food stamps are entitlements but corporate tax breaks, capital gains tax breaks and subsidies are beneficial “programs”. Hypocrisy at its best!! The spin on the definition of entitlements is directly depended on the affluence of the recipient or should I dare say color? The same people DEPENDED on Medicare, social security, etc… shriek about less government, no entitlements and socialism (which is favorite cry of ignorance). BTW, entitlements also include that senior discount so many of those shrieking “antisocialism” enjoy. !! The spin on the definition of entitlements is directly depended on the affluence of the recipient or should I dare say color? The same people DEPENDED on Medicare, social security, etc… shriek about less government, no entitlements and socialism (which is favorite cry of ignorance). BTW, entitlements also include that senior discount so many of those shrieking “antisocialism” enjoy. The hypocrisy is sickening!!

Hypocrisy at its best!

January 30th, 2012
7:14 pm

Corrected

It is funny how the Hope Scholarship is an “entitlement” for those making under $140,000 but a deserving reward for those making above $140,000. Welfare and food stamps are entitlements but corporate tax breaks, capital gains tax breaks and subsidies are beneficial “programs”. It is funny how the Hope Scholarship is an “entitlement” for those making under $140,000 but a deserving reward for those making above $140,000. Welfare and food stamps are entitlements but corporate tax breaks, capital gains tax breaks and subsidies are beneficial “programs”. Hypocrisy at its best!! The spin on the definition of entitlements is directly depended on the affluence of the recipient or should I dare say color? The same people DEPENDED on Medicare, social security, etc… shriek about less government, no entitlements and socialism (which is favorite cry of ignorance). BTW, entitlements also include that senior discount so many of those shrieking “antisocialism” enjoy. !!

AJinCobb

January 31st, 2012
7:38 am

@Anna, tuition has been rising so dramatically because state support of the university system has been cut.

Clueless

January 31st, 2012
9:56 am

The Lottery Corporation and the General Assembly are stealing from our pre-K and college students, and no one seems to care – let’s just cut more from the students.

Steady

January 31st, 2012
10:30 am

Seems like another attack of class warfare, why should any students be penalized because of what their parents earn?

Ivan Cohen

January 31st, 2012
12:53 pm

An old song had it right, “you do miss your water when the well runs dry”. Make no mistake the HOPE well is drying up. The number of low income individuals buying lotto tickets peaked a few years ago. To broaden their market, the lottery officials aired television commercials featuring entertainers like Little Richard and James Brown interacting with white folks under the assumption that white people would buy lotto tickets in droves like black folks did when the system made its debut. Like those cutesy commercials came, they faded away. If the lottery corporation has been making out like bandits, it is because there was no oversight. It is because someone was naive..oh they(the corporation) are going to the right thing, they wouldn’t screw us. Those flush lottery revenues are a thing of the past. Someone should have told the State that good things don’t last forever. Oh well, they are finding that out now.

ScienceTeacher671

February 1st, 2012
5:46 am

If the lottery corporation has been making out like bandits, it is because there was no oversight. It is because someone was naive..oh they(the corporation) are going to the right thing, they wouldn’t screw us.

And now some of those in the General Assembly are considering adding in casinos to further “help education”? Yeah, right….

Teacher Reader

February 1st, 2012
8:33 am

I wonder how many people know that those on welfare have more disposable income than a family making $60,000 a year. HOPE should be for all, or it should go. I am tired of fighting over haves and have nots.

Hall Mom

February 1st, 2012
12:23 pm

“Our plan also reforms the Miller Scholarship to provide it to the top 3 percent of every high school, regardless of income. The best and brightest from every Georgia community would get a full scholarship, and the Miller Scholars would be spread throughout the University System, making it a truly statewide program.”

This just means I will need to transfer my daughter to a high school that she is guaranteed to be in the top 3%. I suppose I can wait until the last week of school for the transfer, because we certainly don’t want her to go to that school!

Does State Sen. Carter not see the problem here?

Why do we even discuss income caps. The real issue is what type of professions does this state need? If we have a severe shortage of nurses, then we should be using HOPE to promote the nursing profession. If we have a shortage of engineers, or plumbers, that is where HOPE can be most effective.

No one should get through college totally free. If there is no cost to the student, then how much value will he place on that education.

another comment

February 2nd, 2012
12:05 am

Here are some of the problems, Georgia does not have a very good 529 savings plan. I believe that most parents who make over $100,000 would rather have had a 529 program like Virginia’s. In Virginia’s plan if you contribute x amount every month per child, your child will be guaranteed 4 years of tuition paid for to any Virginia State University or College. We are talking about Univ. of Virginia, William and Mary, Virginia Tech, George Mason, among others. You can begin the contributions as late as the end of 8th grade. At that point I believe they are approx. $400 per month last, I looked.

When a friend of mine from college told me about Virginia’s plan, my oldest daughter was already past the cut off for contributions. But once she starts college my younger child will still be under the cut off, so I will seriously consider moving up to Virginia to take advantage of this 529 plan. If your child goes out of State, you get your money with interest back.

Then you also have to look at Virginia also only has a 6.2% or less unemployment rate, vs. Georgia’s 9.8%.

The Hope Scholarship is becoming a whole lot less attractive.

another comment

February 2nd, 2012
12:26 am

Another big issue is that High School students just can not get jobs, during high school. If your child is taking multiple AP courses with the remainder Honor’s classes, especially in the 7 class schedule. Then is a participant in a Varsity sport. Is try to prepare for their confirmation at church with classes and community service. There is simply no time to work. My daughters Cheerleading squad practiced 4 days a week M-F from 4 to 7:30 ( in violation of GHST, sometimes not letting out till 8, instead of 7:00) Then Friday night games, where on several away games they did not get home until 1:00 A.M. since they were in Div.III ( again a GHST rule violation, the coaches wanted to stop and eat in Rome). Then they had competions all day on Saturday starting at 8:00 am bus depart and did not arrive home until 5:00). There is simply not anytime to work and save money for college.

When I was in High School, I worked 3 + night from 4-9 in the local grocery store. Yes, I had to drop off the Varsity swim team, but my family did not have money, so I had to work. I still was never up past 11 or 11:30 and did not have the ridiculous make work projects they give in AP and IB courses. I went to top 20 undergrad and graduate schools in STEM majors, also worked a college work study job up to 20 hours a week. Then I would work 3 jobs during the summer. I never had a stupid cereal box or shoe box project in my life. I find it the biggest BS when IB and Or AP teachers say this is like college. I tell them they are full of crap, not in real world degrees.

Another problem is our teens, obtaining a summer job. My daughter applied all over the place. They all hire adults, or illegals. The Chick-Fillet on Cobb Parkway; The McDonalds on Roswell Rd and on North Druid Hills all have illegals working. Publix doesn’t have any 16 or 17 year olds running the cash registers. My daughter finally got a Nanny job which was shared with another teen the mother found. She only got it because her boss has a high profile job and could not have anyone illegal. She also needed someone to drive her kids. Luckily, my child has the car I bought to help transport my younger child.

There is just no way a college kid is going to be able to get a full time job in their major and then two waitressing jobs in the summer, like I did, in order to put myself through college in this bad economy in Georgia.

Suggestions to another comment

February 2nd, 2012
3:40 pm

Tell your daughter to quit varsity sports and cheerleading. Isn’t church confirmation a one-time deal only? Surely it doesn’t last 4 years. Skip the church-connected community service. Recognize that everything now–from the high school classes to the economy to the job market where adults with foreclosed homes must work any job they can find for survival–is different from when you were in school 20+ years ago.

Encourage her to enroll in a Ga. 2-year college, get good grades, and then transfer to some Ga. 4 year school besides UGA or Ga. Tech (most expensive).

No-one is “owed” HOPE.

AJinCobb

February 2nd, 2012
8:48 pm

Back in the time and place when and where I went to high school and university, the vast majority of students had little or no jobs during the school year. They did work in summers. However, when school was in session, our job was studying. College students who needed the money might work a few (8 or less) hours per week.

I find it curious that many Americans today seem to feel entitled, for lack of a better word, to go to school full time while holding down a full time or near full time job. Taking a college course is supposed to involve acquiring significant knowledge and skills, involving a lot of time-consuming effort beyond attending lectures. If getting a college degree is just about paying money and showing up in classes, why would employers care if you’d done that or not?

Frankly, a college degree that can be acquired by simultaneously attending classes “full time” and working full time, is worth very little, in my estimation.

AJinCobb

February 2nd, 2012
9:05 pm

@Hall Mom,

“This just means I will need to transfer my daughter to a high school that she is guaranteed to be in the top 3%. I suppose I can wait until the last week of school for the transfer, because we certainly don’t want her to go to that school!

Does State Sen. Carter not see the problem here?”

Err … how are you going to accomplish that transfer? Move your family to the attendance zone of the academically weaker high school? You can’t just “transfer” your child to whatever public school you want. You have to reside in the attendance zone.

State Sen. Carter: Reinstitute cap on HOPE and base it on available lottery funds each year

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State Sen. Carter: Reinstitute cap on HOPE and base it on available lottery funds each year

199 comments Add your comment

About Get Schooled

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More from the AJC

Are You or Your School the ‘Best In Class’?

Categories

College resources

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