Teach for America: Should Cobb invest heavily in the program? (Apparently not)
UPDATE Friday:
Cobb County Superintendent Michael Hinojosa averted a fight over Teach for America, withdrawing, at least for now, his proposal to hire 50 teachers from the program. Read more here.
The Cobb school board decides tonight whether to staff several chronically under achieving schools with newly minted Teach for America teachers. New Cobb school chief Michael Hinojosa wants to hire 50 TFA teachers. (The costs associated with the program itself would be borne by donations but Cobb would pay the actual salaries.)
The well-regarded alternative teacher training program — which attracts applicants by the thousands and can pick the very brightest and most capable college graduates — has both its fans and detractors, as the Cobb board debate reflects.
“They may be elite college grads,” Eagle said last week during a debate over Hinojosa’s proposal. “But knowing the content doesn’t mean you know how to teach.” Eagle said in a later interview that the timing of the proposal was bad for teacher morale, given budgetary pressure to cut teaching positions next year.
But David Morgan, who represents the part of the county where these teachers would wind up working, said the district has to try something new.
I have always been impressed with the TFA teachers I’ve met, and friends who are teachers usually speak warmly of their younger TFA colleagues. There are a lot of studies supporting TFA, but you can also find skeptics who challenge the research.
My own view is that we ought to applaud — and figure out how to replicate — a recruitment program that draws 50,000 applicants for 5,000 spots and that attracts college students with high GPAs and SAT/ACT scores. Complaints that these teachers leave the profession after a few years seem secondary since retention isn’t much better for teachers coming through traditional pathways.
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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74 comments Add your comment
Van Jones
January 26th, 2012
10:38 am
It will be interesting to see how this shakes out. I’ve had professors with phd’s who were brilliant but could not teach and others who were gifted enough (and smart enough) to be able to explain a complicated topic in a way that was very understandable.
cris
January 26th, 2012
10:52 am
I’m sorry Maureen – I don’t have anything against TFA, but when you’re talking about cutting teaching positions and then you turn around and start talking using TFA for “chronically underachieving” positions that’s just wrong. I’m sure a veteran teacher who had a choice between being unemployed or going to a “chronically underachieving” school will choose to remain employed. But that veteran teacher probably commands a higher salary than a TFA recruit, yes?
John Adams
January 26th, 2012
10:54 am
As a former HR director in Cobb who now represents teachers with Educators First, my view is that Cobb’s plan to “outsource” 50 jobs to TFA is a bad idea and that the timing of it is even worse! Cobb is facing a $62 million budget shortfall and has already indicated it plans to “layoff” up to 350 teachers, increase furlough days from 2 to 5, and delay the salary step increase for 1/2 year. As a result, Cobb teacher morale is just about at an all-time low already. Outsourcing the 50 jobs to TFA would mean replacing Cobb teachers with less qualified, less experienced, and more expensive younger teachers. (And, exactly who is the “mystery benefactor” who has agreed to pay the additional $400,000 that TFA will cost over the next two years, and what strings will be attached?) TFA will further decrease south Cobb teacher morale and will make the real problem, i.e., high teacher turnover in the south Cobb area, even worse, given that according to one recent study, 43% of the TFA newbies do not return to teaching after 2-3 years. Instead of outsourcing to TFA, Cobb should use the extra $400,000 to improve teacher working conditions in the south Cobb area, perhaps starting with not having 37 students in a class. TFA in Cobb is a bad idea, the timing of which is even worse.
HS Public Teacher
January 26th, 2012
10:56 am
This would be a cost cutting measure by Cobb at the expense of the students – plain and simple.
Bringing in a TFA teacher is cheaper than getting a well qualified and experienced teacher. While some TFA teachers are good as they can be for a ‘new’ teacher, most are ineffective – just ask anyone across the Country. Most TFA teachers have no training in pedagogy (teaching methods, differentiation, etc.).
Shame on Cobb if they do this!
teacher&mom
January 26th, 2012
11:11 am
This isn’t a cost cutting measure.
How much $$ will Cobb county be sending to TFA to hire the teachers? There is always a contract between the school district and TFA.
Read how much it costs Hunstville, AL to bring in “at least” 170 TFA teachers.
http://blogs.edweek.org/teachers/living-in-dialogue/2011/11/philip_kovacs_takes_on_tfa_in.html
that's goofy
January 26th, 2012
11:16 am
Would like to see the TFA actually go to a challenging school.
Isn’t the turnover rate for TFA teachers even higher than traditional teachers?
Aside from that you are either wired to be a teacher or you aren’t. I’ve see countless teachers many with online masters / doctorates that are terrible teachers.
Dr NO / Mr Sunshine
January 26th, 2012
11:20 am
Should Cobb invest heavily in the program? A resounding…maybe.
Middle School Principal
January 26th, 2012
11:24 am
As a principal in an urban school system, I have always found TFA teachers to be resourceful, creative, and up to the challenge. Each year I have had 2-4 placed at my school and it has been a success. We need all kinds of bright, diverse, and willing people to be teachers. There is no one best teacher preparation program that works for all.
that's goofy
January 26th, 2012
11:28 am
Interesting view MSP – and we do need people willing to be teachers.
HS Public Teacher
January 26th, 2012
11:38 am
@teacher & mom -
Read again. You are wrong. This absolutely is a cost cutting measure by Cobb. The County is NOT paying for the contract. That money is “donated”. Cobb only has to pay for the teachers.
This is clearly a cost savings for the school system regardless of how it impacts the students.
Another Math Teacher
January 26th, 2012
11:39 am
teacher&mom: “This isn’t a cost cutting measure.”
Sure seems like it. The article you quote ‘that they were going to cost the District an additional $5,000 per year more than other new teachers cost.’
I suspect very few of those new teachers will come in as T-5 or T-6. That’s $5000/$10000 a year cheaper right there. Wont they also come in as first year teachers? That is about $5000 a year cheaper than a 6-7 year teacher, isn’t it? Also, will they have full certificates? If they are provisional they are BT instead of T and get paid $3000 a year less until they get fully certified.
Your link seems to only address the extra cost paid to a company, not the savings that they could be looking at. Doing this on a large scale seems like a way for a county to lower the average experience level for teachers to reduce pay.
HS Public Teacher
January 26th, 2012
11:40 am
Everyone needs to research TFA…. how it operates, the success (or not) of its teachers, the costs associated with it, the teacher turn over, etc.
I do know that once TFA gets its claws in to a school system, they are there for good.
Watch out Cobb.
Old timer
January 26th, 2012
11:50 am
As a Cobb resident and retired teacher, this idea would have been good during the teacher shortage years. Right now we have people looking for jobs. having worked with the TAP program in Clayton County, I do believe these alternative programs produce good teachers. Kennels aw College produces good teachers who have been in these schools student teaching. Let’s hire them first…..
Old timer
January 26th, 2012
11:51 am
Kennesaw College……auto correct got me
Paulo977
January 26th, 2012
11:56 am
Middle
School P
found TFA teachers to be resourceful, creative, and up to the challenge.
______________
Your priorities are great ! I am afraid that is not what the Testing , Standardization etc approach requires though! I am sure that in spite of what the T S approach involves , you, as the leader, are still able to encourage your teachers to go beyond the confining parameters of the T S approach.It is sad that the TFA recruits have to be disillusioned so early in their careers when they confront reality in the majority of schools they are sent to !
All the best …
Teacher Reader
January 26th, 2012
11:58 am
My Nephew’s girl friend is a TFA in rural Eastern North Carolina. She is a bright girl, but was a theater major who is now teaching middle school science. She has no idea on how to run a classroom and is barely keeping up with the material herself. I can’t imagine her working in an inner city. The kids would eat her alive.
TFA, has good points and bad, and in my opinion should only be used by districts that cannot get good qualified teachers to apply to their schools.
Jerry Eads
January 26th, 2012
12:01 pm
The research we have on TFA says what you’d expect – although TFA kids are generally highly motivated top students from good colleges, a few weeks of training makes not a teacher. AND: it takes traditionally WELL-trained teachers 3-7 years to get really good at it. The vast majority of TFA kids do their stint (2 years) and they’re gone. VERY few stay in teaching.
I tried hard while downtown to get TFA let me study their people and, frankly, they were not interested. While that’s a quite different datum from actual research, it likely tells us a lot.
Old Time Educator
January 26th, 2012
12:06 pm
Is Cobb part of RTT? If so, the hiring of TSA teachers is required. It was part of the grant. Perhaps that’s where the money is coming from. Systems that are partaking in RTT had, as one of its stipulations, incorporating TSA teachers into their teacher pool….and wasn’t it the article on Finland’s school system that suggested that teachers only begin to earn their worth at the seven year mark? Since most of the TSA teachers never make it that far, I’d wager that most do little to advance the academic success of their schools.
OTE
Old Time Educator
January 26th, 2012
12:07 pm
Pardon the multiple typos. TSA = TFA
OTE
@ Old Time Educator
January 26th, 2012
1:07 pm
Cobb is NOT part of RTTT (one of the few things former supt. Sanderson did right). That said, Hinojosa’s interest in Teach for America is probably motivated by the opportunity to reduce salaries, as HS Teacher articulated. What people have failed to bring up on this blog is that Hinojosa wants to enter into a CONTRACT with TFA. Think this through, people. This year the mysterious donor will cover the $400K. What happens next year… and the year after that?
This is a crappy idea for a multitude a reasons already stated. I hope the board slaps it down.
nelson
January 26th, 2012
1:15 pm
Cobb County is the most educated county in the state. It certainly deserves the most talented educated teachers. TFA is perfect for Cobb County. Why that is a no-brainer. Cobb County is one of the 100 mwealthiest counties in the U.S. They should not settle for mediocrity when they do not have to.
When some of the poorer rural counties in Georgia get on track, then give them a chance to share in the American Dream. I just love those rural out of the way places, that is where the livin is easy.
Who Nelly from Good Mom
January 26th, 2012
1:30 pm
Whoa Nelly….wait just a darn minute here. All this hatred of TFA teachers is obvioulsy from teachers who are afraid of the competition. Time and again we hear teachers on this blog saying that the profession of teaching in GA is so bad that there will soon no longer be any teachers, that the teacher positions will go unfilled…and so on.
Yet, here are some bright folks who have succeeded in college and willing to give it a try. I say more power to them. They are not yet jaded enough to be bitter and burned out.
Mastery of content matters too. I would love to see a man or woman with a smile on their face, a song in their heart and some gusto in their bodies who can speak and write well and be a good role model.
We are talking about 50 teachers here, not 500 and if experience matters too then we sure do have some experienced teachers around to help the TFAs along.
Many naysayers here have an agenda — they don’t want to lose their jobs to someone else. Many of these naysayers want to bi7ch, moan and groan and complain about every aspect of their job (bus duty? Horrors!) yet they feel threatened when 50 bright young people want to come in and work at the worst schools.
I hope my school gets a TFA. I would love to see that kind of youthful energy and brightness in my child’s life.
Good Mom
About Cris from Good Mom
January 26th, 2012
1:35 pm
Cris, you say “I’m sure a veteran teacher who had a choice between being unemployed or going to a “chronically underachieving” school will choose to remain employed.”
yes, sure they would choose to go to a chronically underachieving school and save their jobs but would they do the work? Would they bi7ch and moan all day? Would they erase test scores?
When what we have isn’t working, we have to give something else a try. I realize that is a threat to some teachers who feel they should be guaranteed a job for life regardless of their skills and effectiveness.
Our children deserve teachers who want to be there; they don’t deserve to get the leftover burned out teachers who are only there just to save their salaries. We aren’t talking about outsourcing jobs overseas. We are talking about hiring American citizens, some of the best and brightest, right out of college, with a desire to teach. We should welcome their enthusiasm and consider our children lucky to have them.
Jerry Eads
January 26th, 2012
2:59 pm
@ Whoa: No hatred at all. I’ve known several kids who became TFAs. FABULOUS kids. They anectodally fit the available research. Extremely bright, well educated in their content areas, and very motivated to run out and save the world. Obviously well indoctrinated on “how terrible” “regular” teachers were (THAT should have endeared them to the schools they worked in). And with just a few weeks training they had absolutely no clue what to do in a classroom. And they’ll be gone in two years, LONG before they ever get that clue. You may want your kids in there but I’ll pass. Just the data, ma’am. BUT, Heaven forfend should data ever confuse anyone.
One of the more recent pieces of actual research in a refereed journal is by Carter, Amrein-Beardsley & Hansen in Teachers College Record, Volume 113 Number 5, 2011, p. 861-894. It also has a fairly decent bibliography.
Jerry Eads
January 26th, 2012
3:07 pm
Try this, by the way. Remember the incredible pilot who saved his 155 passengers ditching a dead airiner on the Hudson? Sully Sullenberger. Thirty years flying, six of them in F4’s. A high school teacher these days EASILY has 150 kids every year.
Would you have wanted somebody with 5 weeks training at the wheel of that Airbus A320? Not me. And the parallel to teaching, in my book, is pretty strong.
Scott
January 26th, 2012
4:05 pm
As a graduate of the GA TAPP program, I think the assessment of TFA teachers is probably fair. Smart, enthusiastic, idealistic, strong on content, and totally unprepared for a real classroom.
That isn’t so much a knock on these bright eyed new teachers. Rather, its the tragedy that new teachers have so little classroom support. If they ask for help, administrators tend to blame them for not handling the problems on their own. Parents tend defend their children instead of correcting them. And the kids who have been passed from grade to grade with poor study habits and defective skills cannot be fixed by a single teacher with good intentions.
The fix is not new teachers. The fix is student accountability. Raise the cut scores and make any elementary, middle or high school student failing a CRCT or EOCT repeat the grade/class, no exceptions. Put the onus on the students and free teachers to teach to self-motivated students. Then watch our SAT scores climb when students realize they must learn to graduate and can no longer just blame adults for what they didn’t bother to study.
catlady
January 26th, 2012
5:10 pm
I agree with Scott.
seen it all
January 26th, 2012
5:55 pm
Teach for America is bullcrap!!! Every piece of evidence and research shows that these people take part in these high profile programs for some ulterior motive (typically name and resume building). They are really not interested in teaching and molding our future citizens. They are not in it for the long haul. It’s all about short term gains. This is why most of these people never last two years in the classroom. Most “real” teachers gut it out because THAT is their chosen career. Being a professional teacher. They didn’t go to college to be future accountants, office executives, etc. They went to become a TEACHER.
A former principal (now retired) once told me that he would never hire an alternatively “certified”, TFA style person because there were too many qualified, experienced teachers available for him to take chances on some unexperienced layman. And this is why I find offense with school systems even pretending to court these TFA types. So many good teachers were thrown in a garbage heap in the name of budget cuts and these people want to even consider hiring UNQUALIFIED clowns. People who will “give it the old college try” and after one or two years, hit the streets with “teacher” on their resume.
It’s just insulting.
Cobb Teacher
January 26th, 2012
6:59 pm
Typical Maureen…she bad mouths public school teachers and applauds anything that has the words “TFA” or “charter school” or “Michelle Rhee.” For once, can you PLEASE support public school teachers Maureen? Just once…
To Seen It All from Good Mom
January 26th, 2012
7:54 pm
Seen it All, you’ve expressed a lot of anger at TFAs. You write “Every piece of evidence and research shows that these people take part in these high profile programs for some ulterior motive (typically name and resume building).”
Resume building? What type of industry wants to hire a teacher, except of course, the education industry. I look at a hundred or more resumes a month. No one is impressed by having “teacher” on their resume. Teachers are not highly regarded in our society. Go look on any job site and read the requirements. They all have a list of “required skills” and also have a list of “desired” or “highly desired skills.” NONE of them list teaching experience as a highly desired skill.
You also complain about TFAs because they didn’t choose teaching as their lifetime career. You say “Most “real” teachers gut it out because THAT is their chosen career.”
So what? So what if you decided at age 20 to become a teacher for life. That certainly doesn’t make anyone more qualified than someone who decided to become at teacher at age 30 or 40 or 50…
There are valid reasons why teachers should be angry: lying, thieving administrators, overcrowded classrooms and so on…but those aren’t the fault of the kids trying to earn a living as a teacher. In this economy, many people are struggling to get a job. They may apply to be a teacher just say they can afford to pay the rent and buy food. What’s wrong with that? Would you rather they just sit out of work and take welfare until they get their “chosen” job at the accounting firm?
When teachers are mistreated, go after the cause of the mistreatment. go after the bullies that tossed good teachers in the trash but don’t blame the kids wanting to get a job. They’re innocent.
To Jerry eads from Good Mom
January 26th, 2012
8:01 pm
You said “Would you have wanted somebody with 5 weeks training at the wheel of that Airbus A320? Not me.”
Just because a teacher has been a teacher in the classroom for 30 years doesn’t mean they were a good teacher. Sometimes it just means they are too hard to fire.
One of my teachers drank all day from her little silver flask and hicupped and belched all day. She told us daily “get out your books and read silently to yourselves.” Every…day. I read “Gone with the Wind” all 1036 pages in her class while I should have been learning.
She was the “pilot” on that Airbus A320 for thirty years. I would rather take my chances on the TFA with five weeks training to land my plane on the Hudson.
NY Teaching Vet
January 26th, 2012
8:38 pm
I’m sure some TFA teachers would be good, some great, and some would be terrible; that’s exactly what you would find currently in the schools. So, I don’t see a net gain there.
Other issues need to be addressed as well: student and parent accountability, additional resources for homeless students, young parents trying to complete high school, and so on. TFA will not cure those problems…
TFA Teacher
January 26th, 2012
10:28 pm
As a TFA teacher, I have very mixed feelings about the program. I am not a traditional TFA teacher. I graduated from college about a decade ago and left a very well-paying, high-status job to teach. I find many of my TFA colleagues to be unprofessional and immature, but in my experience, they don’t seem anymore unprofessional or immature as my fellow teachers and administrators in the school and district I work. TFA teachers are annoyingly passionate about their students and ready to take on challenges. Many TFA teachers are open to change and reform in ways that many veteran teachers are not. They care about building relationships with their students and their families in ways that I have not seen demonstrated by teachers in the area I teach.
Many people who go through education programs and are qualified to work in the areas TFA does are simply are not interested in working in high-need communities. Not to mention the fact that certification is different in every state — it makes it difficult and expensive to teach in a state in which you are not already certified. TFA teachers make a choice to join TFA to work in high-need communities.
It’s true that TFA teachers don’t really do better or worse than others, that their retention rate is roughly the same as other teachers, and that there is strong evidence that shows that no matter what your degree or the number of degrees one has makes much of an impact on students’ academic gains in school. But TFA teachers are ready and willing. In the Metro-Atlanta region, TFA has has developed a partnership with Georgia State University where TFA teachers are not only getting certified, but many are earning their Masters of Arts in Teaching to gain the pedagogical, theoretical, and practical knowledge and insights that are critical to a reflective teaching practice. TFA is not a cure-all solution, but at the end of the day, I would rather have my children taught by a passionate, engaged, capable, and hard-working young(er) teacher rather than a complacent, bored, “more experienced” one.
HS Public Teacher
January 26th, 2012
10:31 pm
Good Mom – You really crack me up. No, really.
Are you saying that you would gamble with your child’s education on a TFA teacher? Seriously?
Have you researched this organization? Have you seen the statistical data? I really doubt it.
You always ALWAYS think that teachers are “afraid” of whatever. Have you ever thought for even a moment that teachers just MIGHT have the best interest of students in mind??????
HS Public Teacher
January 26th, 2012
10:37 pm
@NY Teaching Vet -
Here are the “gains” for Cobb County and for TFA…..
1. The initial fee for the TFA teachers to Cobb is being paid for by private funds (not tax payers). So, the school system is able to hire these inexperienced 1st year teachers at a bargin price compared to any experienced teacher with 5 years, for example. This accumulates as more and more experienced teachers are ‘displaced’ and these 1st year teachers get the jobs.
2. Eventually, Cobb school system will have to foot the bill for the contract with TFA. And, these contracts, once in place, are very hard to break or not renuew. So, the Cobb tax payers will eventually be paying money to the TFA organization once the ‘donation’ runs out. This is not cheap. TFA is very profitable!
In the short term, Cobb school system saves money. In the long run, TFA makes money.
In all of this mess, the students lose out. But, no one seems to care….
southside teacher
January 26th, 2012
10:40 pm
@Another math teacher-
Actually, since TFA takes UNCERTIFIED grads and puts them through summer boot camp, they come on as first-year BT-4, on provisional certificate.
The committment is limited, and most leave at the end of their TFA contract. Yes, TFA contract. their contract is with TFA, not the district.
HS Public Teacher
January 26th, 2012
10:41 pm
@Good Mom – You always seem to have these “stories” about a teacher from your past or one that your (so-called) child has had. Pray tell – where in Georgia does all of this drama take place?
I’m not asking for any personal information at all. I am just curious if you could give a school system or a city or a county. I would love to visit that place and witness all of this drama!
southside teacher
January 26th, 2012
10:44 pm
In a word, NO!
That’s like asking if Grady Medical Center should invest in a Doctors for America program that brings in college grads who are willing to treat the sickest, poorest patients, while they simultaneously get their medical training. Would you volunteer to be treated by one of these ‘promising’ and ‘talented’ interns?
southside teacher
January 26th, 2012
10:47 pm
AMEN, Scott! One day, when I write my book about real life inside the school system, it will be assumed to be a work of fiction, becuase no one will believe the stuff that goes on.
TFA Corps Member
January 27th, 2012
12:16 am
We’re contracted to teach for two years, and then we leave. Some stay longer, but almost all move on after two years, to be replaced with more Corps Members.
B. Killebrew
January 27th, 2012
2:25 am
http://www.ajc.com/news/cobb/cobb-superintendent-pulls-teach-1319099.html
East Cobb Parent
January 27th, 2012
7:52 am
Maureen, as you know I seldom agree with your thinking, but today is an exception. I’ve done my own research on TFA and have my own concerns. However, two points that lean in favor of TFA. Eagle’s comment on not all subject experts can effectively teach what they know – true, however, if you don’t know the material you certainly cannot teach it. I see this all the time with EC teachers attempting to teach 5th grade math. When the AJC had their education panel a few weeks back, the two ‘educators’ that I was most impressed with and would have no problem putting my child in their class – neither came through the traditional teaching path. I forget the names, but the young lady from TFA had so much passion and enthusiasm it had to touch the students that she taught. The same with the gentleman with the law degree (I believe would have to check my notes to be sure). I would like to see a few of these passionate individuals in the South Cobb schools and see if they can make a difference. If the administrators and other teachers would support and share versus the petty attitude often demonstrated, it might work. I’m not saying it is a perfect situation nor do I think the majority of teachers should be from such a program. Go into any school and you know which teachers are considered dead weight. We simply must begin to weed out the bad teachers.
@ southside teacher – happens all the time
C Jae of EAV
January 27th, 2012
10:13 am
The comments delivered by @Middle School Principal, @NY Teaching Vet & @TFA Teacher to me represent a thoughtful and balanced view of this particular issue.
What amazes me is the degree to which so-called concerned stakeholders come to blogs like this every day talking about all the change that needs to happen relative to the traditional public school model, but at the end of the day the conversation generally degrades into a discussion of ADULT INTERESTS! If there is an opportunity for talented, motiviated and concerned professionals to devote themselves to the challenge of teaching within the public school arena in the areas of greatest need why would we not try to find a way to support it? What is it that our kids stand to lose? What is it that our kids stand to gain?
Personally, I’m willing to support the effort proposed. If the net effect is a wash as suggested by @NY Teaching Vet, then the proability of 10% or better of the TFA pool turning into retained, willing & able teaching talent is worth it to me.
Truth
January 27th, 2012
10:55 am
@C Jae of EAV -
Only 10%? That is not a very good retention rate by any measure. Also, what about the other 90% that did not return? What about the many students that had those TFA teachers that must have not ‘cut the mustard’? You are really willing to throw those students educations and futures away?
Talk about not looking out for students interest….
Sidney C
January 28th, 2012
10:37 am
My neice, who was let go by her school district before she hit 3 years and was tenured is in TFA. That being said- TFA is basically “scab” labor which the school district doesn’t pay for, there is limited if no benefits or retirement investment by the district and is nothing more than a cost saving method. Its not about putting the best teachers in place, its about putting the cheapest teachers in place and after 2 years, well maybe we will hire you but most likely not….
Interesting Observation
January 28th, 2012
10:44 am
You reap what you sow. Keep electing law makers who only see “job creaters” as the only ones who matter, and these law makers keep cutting taxes on these “job creaters” while the coffers for you children’s education run dry. Keep sending people to Washington to stick in the president’s eye while he dare utter a jobs bill that will keep teachers in the class, police on the street and firemen employed. Yes, Georgia voters, keep voting against your own best interest.
Sidney C
January 28th, 2012
10:46 am
Addition- TFA is mostly funded by the federal government, the notion that Cobb would pay their salaries is incorrect. While technically Cobb pays them, the money to pay them comes from DC.
FYI
January 28th, 2012
10:50 am
@ Good Mom/ Mother, January 26th, 8:01 pm.
The last time(s) you related this sad tale of the alcoholic teacher from your past, it was a male teacher. Your memory must be slipping.
Dr. John Trotter
January 28th, 2012
11:26 am
Very bad idea, but follow the money and see who has a “consulting” contract with Teach For America. Who is working to land the deal for TFA? Always follow the money. Public education in Georgia is a multi-billion dollar industry. We have written on this for years.
http://www.theteachersadvocate.com
http://www.georgiateachersspeakout.com
Dr. John Trotter
January 28th, 2012
11:27 am
Sidney C, you are wrong.
Former Gwinnett County Graduate/ 2010 TFA Corps Member
January 28th, 2012
11:27 am
Quite honestly, reading through many of these responses disappoints me. I graduated from the Gwinnett County public school system in 2006 (I was also the student body president at my high school), went on to receive an undergraduate degree in sociology at the University of Michigan, and then planned on working in the corporate sector. After much thought and deliberation, I decided to apply to Teach for America because I was volunteering in Detroit at the time and realized that our education system was going down the drain for too many of our kids. They were denied opportunity and people were not doing enough for these children. I was accepted into Teach for America and ended up coming down to the Mississippi Delta where exists the lowest literacy rates and highest teenage pregnancy rates in the country. Rural poverty is something that I had never seen in all my life.
I acknowledge that I am a very small sample size here, but I can tell you that Teach for America coming into these regions does make a difference. I work 100 hours a week to ensure these kids have the same opportunities I have and I seeing the adult interests, corruption, lack of resources, and inefficiency on the district and state level makes me sick to my stomach. But there is a large percentage of corps members staying for a third year in the Delta public school systems, including myself, and everyone else is either going on to TFA staff, working at charter schools across the country, or going on to graduate school programs to have a bigger impact in trying to provide equal opportunities for our students.
I came into this program not realizing how bad the school systems were. I studied it all day in a classroom and focused most of my undergraduate research on inequity in education from various fronts, but actually being knee-deep in it changed everything. As a first year teacher without a degree in teaching, I did have phenomenal test scores, and no, not everything was perfect (but what first year teacher has a perfect year, really? It is the hardest year of your life). But do I plan on going back for a masters to get more experience for the classroom? Oh you bet. Already applied.
Teach for America works on making sure we get people to various sectors of education. While I will be staying teaching for another year in the Delta, then plan on getting a masters in literacy and educational leadership, and continue to run a million different things for school (I am the school department head, school leadership team member, student council sponsor, advanced extended school day coordinator, book club sponsor, and help kids apply to summer programs because not all parents can read and write), I fully acknowledge that teaching is not for everyone. I want to become a principal, but this is NOT for everyone.But being in a school system that needs major over-haul, I MAJORLY value people who are going to take the time to get their butts out of the classroom, back to a top-three law school or policy school, come back and fix this system. It isn’t working, and it can be fixed, but it is going to take a lot of work and a lot of great people who WANT to take the time to fix it. Although I have NO desire to do law school, I really want people to go so policy can be made that is actually good policy and went through the same obstacles I did. I am tired of people making policy who never actually stepped foot into a classroom.
I value our teachers. Truly. Veteran teachers have given me more advice than one could imagine and they want the same things that TFA does too. But what was happening is places like the Mississippi Delta and even urban areas in our country were being left neglected and ignored. Even when I was a student in Gwinnett, we knew the crappy school in the county. We had jokes about the school. Playing them in sports was just a waste of time, and reading about their test scores became mundane reading.
Unfortunately, there was no reason that school had to be lower performing than ours. No reason. And if you start to blame the social factors, I will just get angry with you. You walk into my classroom for an hour. I would put my kids up against anybody, and they are under the federal poverty line. There are challenges, but nothing is impossible.
As a teacher who is now teaching at a middle school that is the only turn-around middle school in the state of MS, I am sending five of my students to one of the top private academic camps in the country this summer. Just because you are poor doesn’t mean you have to have a crappy education.
Is there a lot that needs to be fixed? Absolutely. Is TFA perfect? Nope. But until you can find something that is better, I will tell you that my friends and I are out here making a difference.
Tony
January 28th, 2012
11:27 am
TFA may bring some really good people into a few classrooms but the approach is only temporary. These people are not going to be teachers. They commit to two years and then walk away. Chronically underachieving schools need something more than short term approaches to solve their long term problems.
TFA targets high achieving students for their program. Imagine if we did the same to attract education majors. Raising the salaries of teachers, recruiting only the most academically prepared for techereducarion programs, and giving credentials to only the best. This is along term way to help solve the problems faced by some of these chronically underperforming schools.
TFA may send a few good people to a school, but they will not hang around very long.
Dr. John Trotter
January 28th, 2012
11:28 am
TFA teachers do not have regular due process rights. The contract is between TFA and the local school boards.
Tonya C.
January 28th, 2012
11:37 am
Good Mom:
If your child is actually in APS, then his or her school does have TFA teachers. That’s a fact you can bank on. In addition, depending on the cluster, the school also have teachers from foreign countries who have ZERO experience in an American classroom. Again, a verifiable fact.
Tonya C.
January 28th, 2012
11:44 am
Former Gwinnett County Graduate/ 2010 TFA Corps Member:
But is what you are doing sustainable? 100 hours a week? How will going back to school for your Masters affect that? I applaud your effort and courage, but can you continue at this pace for the long haul?
This is not meant to be condescending, but honest questions. My husband changed careers to be a teacher. He gives a 150%, but with a wife and children can only give so much. What happens when you get a life?
Non TFA Teach
January 28th, 2012
11:48 am
The problem with TFA is they don’t know the kids. TFA teachers are usually young caucasian students who need to have their school loans paid for. Now I have nothing wrong with that but they come into the inner city schools and have no idea the kids they are dealing with. The five week program doesn’t teach them how to deal with a kid, who just came from a house where nobody has graduated from high school. In addition, there are various other factors that plays a role into their deficiency in education. Teaching is a special skill and if you have no true love for it, the students will see this and will not listen to them. Inner city kids are a different beast and you have to love them and relate to them first. The are used to people leaving them alone or not caring. But once you show them that love and positivity they can perform some miracles.
lawdawg
January 28th, 2012
11:52 am
Cobb should absolutely be welcoming TFA! I’m proud of the superintendent for suggesting this idea. It seems to me that much of the opposition is from jealous stakeholders in the traditional education system.
College professors (and teaching assistants) do not typically have “education” experience – but they have superior knowledge in their fields. They may not be the best “educators,” but does anyone argue with the quality of education at Georgia Tech? In our high schools especially, we should be seeking out people with relevant coursework and great grades in college. A Master’s in Math, Chemistry, etc. should be more valued than a M.Ed. from some online university.
There’s this idea and expectation that we have to treat our students like babies…. Maybe that’s appropriate for primary school, and maybe a degree in early childhood education is the way to go there. But as far as the upper grades, we should be raising our expectations.
Jason
January 28th, 2012
12:08 pm
TFA is not the answer when there are currently hundreds of college graduates with teaching certification who cannot find a job in this state. Hire them first before outsourcing to others.
Former Gwinnett County Graduate/ 2010 TFA Corps Member
January 28th, 2012
12:10 pm
Great question that I would love to address. I think that teaching in a low-income area is like an investment banking job– you can’t do it forever if you exert yourself that much, which is the reason why many people leave after a couple of years in low-income areas (it is tiring if you want results and we get paid nothing).
However, with excellent school leadership (an aspect majorly lacking in many rural and urban areas), you are able to dedicate yourself to solely focusing on instruction, which for that reason, I am not worn out. Yet. I have an excellent school leader, who is NOT TFA, and I plan on one day becoming her to run my own turn-around school.
I think that I will continue this until probably my late 20’s before I become a principal. I think also that many of my kids who are coming to me in 8th grade on a second grade reading level forces me to have to dedicate my time, creativity, and innovation toward directly finding solutions. There isn’t always resources. There isn’t always people doing their jobs on the district and state levels, which causes major strain on classroom instruction. So I am having to do those things because other people aren’t do the best job higher up. That is what takes time.
Also, it gets easier. I have no idea how you all do it with kids and families. I applaud all excellent educators who can get the job done with a family. However, I think if all my kids came to me on grade-level, I wouldn’t be working this hard. But unfortunately, 80 percent of my kids are not on grade level. So I do what I have to do so they can succeed. I think that solution lies in more resources toward pre-school and early childhood so we can close that gap early. That is a whole different issue.
But I had teachers in Gwinnett who had families and lives who put in a SIGNIFICANT amount of time to making things happen. Okay, maybe not 90 to 100 hours, but I can tell you that they made a difference in the amount of effort, time, and compassion they put into their work and students as a whole. And I can tell you right now the ones who did and didn’t. It was obvious then. Even more obvious now.
So back to your question. Can it be sustainable? Not 100 hours. No. But a lot of factors play into your 100 hours. You can scale back over time. I choose to work 100 hours. I could be working more like 60 hours this year, which is a huge difference in last year. But I wanted my kids to go to Phillips Exeter Academy Summer Program, Ole Miss Summer Academy, and needed to start extracurriculars at my school because there was no community. So, I had different priorities. Also, my school is a failing school and needed some major work from the curriculum instruction all the way up to the way funds within the school were allocated. It depends on the situation. Also, if you are a veteran, you know what works and it gets easier to plan over time with the multitude of resources you have accumulated over the year. I can’t wait until I can say that.
I am applying to a Masters Program currently that is two summers back to back. For the second masters in literacy, I will be taking a year off of school in order to make that happen. I am fortunate because I am young and can reasonably do that. Until public schools pay more based on performance, I will be leaving to go teach at a charter school soon enough. If I am putting that much time and energy into getting results, I should be paid well. My financial situation will not be sustainable in my mid-twenties, so I will eventually leave the public school system in order to hopefully become a master educator.
Do I have a life now? Some might argue no. I think I definitely do as I am driving to Memphis tonight to enjoy my night off with other TFA friends, but I absolutely love my job. So my job doesn’t feel like work to me. It is a passion. Not everyone is as fortunate in that regard, I understand. But you should be in this profession only if you love it.
Former Gwinnett County Graduate/ 2010 TFA Corps Member
January 28th, 2012
12:18 pm
And as my principal once said, “I don’t care who is teaching my children. As long they can get the job done.”
The best one should be teaching our kids. No, I did not have an undergraduate degree in education, but I think I was better off coming from one of the best public universities in the country. I did research on educational inequity in college and wrote fifty page papers on the subject conducting one ethnography after the next, and crunching numbers until I was blue in the face. Between that, my work ethic, TFA institute to get down the basics, and a desire to help young people, I could teach. Do I want more knowledge?
Yes, I will go back to get more for it because now after being in the classroom two years, I see exactly what I need and am much more cognizant of the gaps that I need to fill in my own professional development. Also, TFA develops us constantly. More than my own district, that’s for sure. I am learning something new all the time. I never stop learning, and that is why I love this job so much. If you want to learn more, you can make it happen. All the time.
But that is solely on the intrinsic motivation of the educator.
Therefore, I do not care if you have a degree in education if you can’t get the job done.
Teachers are Made. Not Born.
Sidney C
January 28th, 2012
12:24 pm
uh no, Dr. John, you are mistaken. I have had the priveledge of sitting in the employment orientation for my niece (after being taken advantage of by her last district) and the while they claim, full benefits, in fact, its at a much high rate than the regular teacher and they are not available for local or state retirement benefits. AND the money comes from DC as a grant to the districts.
end of discussion
seen it all
January 28th, 2012
12:39 pm
I’ll have to say this– I agree with TFA teacher about one thing. Many of the teachers with all the “credentials and experience” don’t want to go into areas served by TFA graduates. And I think that many TFA teachers do have some desire to go in and at least try to help make a difference. I know many so called certified teachers who wouldn’ even think about going into a lower socioeconomic neighborhood to teach.
Observer
January 28th, 2012
12:53 pm
Former Gwinnett County Graduate/ 2010 TFA Corps Member, January 28th, 12:10 pm, states: “I think that I will continue this until probably my late 20’s before I become a principal.”
I am not a K-12 educator, but wonder about the likelihood of this happening. It may be a significant motivation for the present hard work and dedication expended by this newcomer to the educational profession. Possibly it was suggested to him or her during TFA recruitment.
K-12 educators: is this likely to happen?
Tonya C.
January 28th, 2012
12:56 pm
Former Gwinnett County Graduate/ 2010 TFA Corps Member:
But you did answer my question. Teaching requires a tremendous amount of effort and resources. And you admit it’s not really sustainable over the long haul. I am not against TFA, especially when it does what it was intended to do: serve students who otherwise would get the educational shaft. But Cobb IS NOT in that position. Let’s be clear.
And it doesn’t get easier. I know some fantastic teachers who have been in the trenches for decades who say due to the top heavy bureaucracy, constant changing mandates, and degrading home lives of the students they are working harder than ever.
I just wish we would focus on LONG-TERM solutions to these problems. Instead of trying to patch up the holes in the ship, it needs to to docked and serious repairs made. TFA is a short-term solution to the long-term deficits in education.
Former Gwinnett County Graduate/ 2010 TFA Corps Member
January 28th, 2012
1:14 pm
It was never suggested to me during recruitment. Actually, it became a great idea that came to my attention when I became the department head at my school at only 24. There are principal pipeline programs everywhere and I am currently applying to one now. I think it is very likely if you are good at what you do, and you are in a region that desperately needs good leadership. I think 30 is a very good time for me to consider school leadership as an option especially in a rural region.
I think you have to start taking the necessary steps right now in order to make that happen however. Waiting too long is the problem. People do not look at enough long-term solutions to fix the plethora of issues. And I agree, I will be very very happy the day TFA does not have to exist and students can get equal opportunity everywhere.
BOO TFA!
January 28th, 2012
1:32 pm
I work with five TFA members. 4 out of the 5 have caused stress, extra work and problems for all the other members of our staff. They are uncertified and required to spend coutless hours outside of work doing certification requirments. Most of them are spread so thin, it makes a bad situation worse. In the future, I would prefer NOT to work with a TFA member.
Teacher Education Supporter
January 28th, 2012
2:12 pm
Please read the research on TFA! http://greatlakescenter.org/docs/Policy_Briefs/Heilig_TeachForAmerica.pdf
Cobb County has qualified teachers to teach in our county. We also have graduates from colleges of education from universities who would LOVE to have a job. These graduates acquire content knowledge, pedagogy, and have experience in the classrooms teaching students. Cobb County board members should NOT support Hinhosa on this!
Observer
January 28th, 2012
2:29 pm
Addressing all K-12 educators, especially in rural areas:
Is this dream of “Former Gwinnett County Graduate/2010 TFA Corps Member” likely to come true? —”I think 30 is a very good time for me to consider school leadership [becoming a school principal] as an option especially in a rural region.”
Dr. John Trotter
January 28th, 2012
2:43 pm
@ Sidney C: I don’t doubt that you were with your daughter and observed what they told her about benefits, etc. But, if all of the money comes from the Federal Government (and I could be wrong on this), then what is the contract signed by the local system district and TFA all about? If the financially-strapped systems have to pay no money, then in their way of thinking it’s a no-brainer. I am not trying to be a smart aleck; I truly want to know.
TP
January 28th, 2012
2:54 pm
Cobb County has a great parntership with Kennesaw University. Student teachers in the traditional education Department plus the Urban Education program are producing great teachers. Why do we have to look to TFA for new teachers when Kennesaw is next door.
teacher&mom
January 28th, 2012
3:00 pm
@Observer….Yes, it is very likely to come true.
@Former Gwinnett County/TFA: “There are principal pipeline programs everywhere and I am currently applying to one now.”
Would you care to disclose which pipeline program you are applying to?
teacher&mom
January 28th, 2012
3:06 pm
Perhaps the $400,000 in donations can now be used toward supporting beginning teachers in the classroom?
If the goal of the donations is to increase the number of effective teachers in S. Cobb, it should not matter if the teacher is a TFA member or a graduate of a traditional program….right?
Will the district still receive the donations?
Jerry Eads
January 29th, 2012
2:38 pm
Everyone: The data are what the data are. Rare exception personal anecdotes don’t count. Five short weeks of training, no matter how good it is, doesn’t make a good pilot any more than it makes a good teacher.
I’m glad the kid worked a hundred hours a week trying hard, but very few people can keep that up for a few weeks, much less for a career. Many ORDINARY teachers work 60-80 a week. For 20-30 years.
Average real teacher retention is FAR more than two years. Our own data show that we still have more than 60% (64.2%, to be precise) of ours after ten years. Most of our teachers are competent, many are fantastic. Some need help and some perhaps should find another career. But replacing them with totally clueless virtually untrained kids, almost all of whom will be gone in a few years, may be a cutesie quick-fix for adults who apparently don’t care about the future of our country.
But THE RESEARCH shows it’s not a good thing for our children.
Ole Guy
February 1st, 2012
1:22 pm
Rates of retention, according to the article, appear to be about the same for both TFA and traditional sources. The big questions, therefore, arise: is TFA really worth the investment? Can TFA be expected to have any real impact on teacher shortages? Would it not be wise to, instead, address the base issues behind teacher shortages?
TFA, as I see it, is tantamount to pumping air into a flat tire before addressing the base problem that the hole in the tire has been all but ignored. While the presence of the hole has garnered much debate, complaint, and analysis, nothing, OF REAL SUBSTANCE, has been done to address the BIG PROBLEM which the hole presents. One can come up with all sort of “creative ways” to put air into the tire, but without first addressing the BASE PROBLEM(S), all the creativity in the world won’t do a gd thing as far as the initial problem is concerned.
BEFORE expending another ounce of effort on TFA, let’s howbout addressing the REAL problems behind teacher disatisfaction…we’ve seen them before; hashed em’ into oblivian, and, in the end, ACHIEVED ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! Teachers…grow a pair/acquire some “professional guts”…organize, unionize; do whatever is necessary to send the undeniable message to the powers that be that THE TEACHING PROFESSION IS YOUR DOMAIN, AND YOUR’S ALONE. Stop whimpering an’ whining and TAKE FREQUIN CHARGE OF YOUR PROFESSIONAL SELVES.
Every time I see nonesense, like TFA, taking up valuable space, I am reminded just how gutless the entire teacher corps has become (this is not so-called teacher bashing, but simply a statement of sad reality). As far as I’m concerned, TFA, for the intended purpose of filling teacher voids, is nothing short of scabs. In-and-of-itself, TFA is a fine program for those wishing to enter the teaching field following a career in a non-educational endeavour, but in it’s current form, serves no purpose other than to “pump air into a flat tire before going to the trouble of fixingb the hole in the tire”…STUPID STUPID STUPID!