A second grader draws one person shooting another and labels them “me” and “you.” Cause for concern?
UPDATE: Folks, I closed comments on this at 10 p.m. Friday. Have a great holiday weekend. Maureen
A former-teacher-turned-advocate has been talking to me about an incident involving his second grader and a classmate. The classmate had handed his child a drawing of one figure shooting another. The boy labeled the shooter “me” and the victim “you.” In the primitive sketch, both the stick figure shooter and the victim are smiling.
Upset by the possible implications of the sketch, the former educator and his wife went to the school but were unhappy with how their concerns were addressed.
Here is a description he wrote about the entire experience. What do you think?
I am a former educator and most recently represented educators on various issues. One would be hard pressed to find a parent more understanding of the demands facing educators today. Schools often talk about their desire to have parental involvement in the education process. This has been the retort anytime challenges present themselves in the school system – “We need more parental involvement, more parents who care.”
So when parents seek open lines of communication and have questions about the learning environment of their child, one would expect the school to welcome collaboration rather than a seemingly ritualistic dance around the issue. My family recently experienced “the dance” from one of Georgia’s premier school systems at an award-winning school when our child was given a picture drawn by a second-grade classmate of a person shooting someone. Most disturbing were the captions; the artist labeled the shooter “me” and the victim “you.”
When our child told us about the picture, we were appalled that school officials had not contacted us immediately. Without knowing the severity of the threat, the school could have demonstrated some care and concern, if its administrators had been proactive, and at least informed us. Nothing.
We went to the school the next morning to inquire about the situation and were told that the administration was going to contact my family “after an investigation was complete.” We were told that the administration was going to ask the school resource officer to look at it and make a determination. To the school’s credit, they later involved the school counselor and the school psychologist.
When speaking with a direct report to the superintendent of the school system about why school psychologists were not automatically involved, we were told, “School psychologists can just say whatever you want them to say; you can pay them to say anything.” I have tremendous respect for school psychologists and was gravely disappointed to hear this from a central office official.
The investigation was deemed complete after two days, and the conclusion was that our child was not in any danger. We asked for the other child to be placed in another class. That was denied immediately. We are still struggling with questions.
–Why was this given to our child? We were told that this child had an entire notebook of pictures.
– Our child has never considered this classmate a friend. When we shared this info with the school along with the fact that our child had not had good interactions with this child, it did not change their perspective.
–Who are the people labeled “me” and “you?”
–Did they find this picture developmentally appropriate for a second grader?
– We were told the school determined that our child is not in any danger. What made them sure of this?
The school psychologist admitted that she was not given all of the information and indicated that the picture was concerning. When we met with the principal, she ended our meeting by saying, “I don’t think there is anything left to discuss.” She did not ask if our child felt safe or if we still had concerns.
When we asked to meet with the other parents so that we could figure this out, we were told that the school does not facilitate parental meetings. If our child had given this drawing to anyone, my wife and I would be crawling over each other to apologize to the family of the other child.
Neither the school nor the system did anything to make sure that our child or my wife and I were comfortable with how the situation was addressed. They were more concerned with protecting the rights of the child who gave the picture to my son.
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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281 comments Add your comment
Questions
December 29th, 2011
11:39 am
For example, Lakeside HS has a written protocol that parents go to the teachers with their concerns,
First, but the Principal and APs do not follow their own written protocol on a regular basis and allow the parents to come to them directly, and then assume the student and parents are right without hearing the teachers’ side of the story, regardless if the child is wrong. Every school handles parent concerns differently.
I'm a teacher
December 29th, 2011
11:40 am
I agree with good mother – but also understand that in covering two schools their are other children they must see and the incident with your child may be low on the priority list. In this age of blame (and most of the previous posts bear evidence to that) Schools have to be ultra careful to protect everyone – have most of the bloggers switch the victim with the artist – that same parent would be complaining that their child’s innocent drawing was blown out of proportion in that case.
suepage65
December 29th, 2011
11:43 am
@carlosgvv: wow
Teachers undereporting violence Good Mother
December 29th, 2011
11:44 am
Let’s also not forget that in the same way teachers were pressured to cheat on the CRCT tests, teachers are also (by their own admission) pressured to undereport violence, bullying and crime in schools.
As parents, knowing these facts, and knowing that teachers lied and cheated on CRCT tests, we cannot trust the teacher to tell us what is happening in school nor can we trust them to handle the situation with complete integrity.
Every parent has a right to be concerned about violence and bullying in school. Every parent has the right to address his or her concerns with whomever they deem it is appropriate to discuss it with and no one has a right to beat up on a parent for being involved and concerned about the possibility of bullying and violence. When a teacher lies and cheats on a CRCT test, they will also lie and cheat and underreport bullying and violence.
Once a teacher goes down that slippery slope of dishonesty and distrust, one cannot return.
It is interesting to note; however, that the same teacher-bloggers who criticize the parent for getting involved in this incident are the same teacher-bloggers who complain, at great length, ad nauseum, that they are not involved in their child’s education.
Duplicity, thy name is teacher-blogger.
Beverly Fraud
December 29th, 2011
11:47 am
‘but also understand that in covering two schools their are other children they must see and the incident with your child may be low on the priority list.”
So I understand @I’m a teacher. A child draws and labels a DEATH THREAT to another student, and that’s a low priority?
Then some one needs to explain, to the parents, IN PLAIN ENGLISH, why such a thing is a low priority do they not?
I'm a teacher
December 29th, 2011
11:50 am
In response to Questions – about how this is handled in our school – a child hanging themselves is reported to counselors and administrators – something that is deemed a threat is also reported – again some of these are judgement calls on the teacher’s part – being trained in art – I have more training in what is an age appropriate drawing than most teachers – just the fact that the stick figures are smiling is less important to the colors used to draw them. Again – are there times when teachers get it wrong? yes. Are there times when administrators get it wrong? yes. Are there times when parent get it wrong? yes – over-reacting does not solve the problems – we do not live in a perfect world – things are going to happen and you need to teach kids how to deal with those time. And maybe the schools don’t report every single incident is because when they do they get hammered with criticism and it is used as an excuse to blast the public school system.
Beverly Fraud
December 29th, 2011
11:51 am
Again, it would have been VERY simple for administration to bring the teacher in and vouch that (without naming any names) none of the students in her room have exhibited a pattern of behavior that makes PHYSICAL VIOLENCE toward you child a legitimate concern.
But that apparently didn’t happen. Why? Because perhaps it’s so outside the realm of possibility no one at school thought to say it? LOL
Or because they CAN’T say it, because they know it isn’t true?
Jack
December 29th, 2011
11:54 am
HRPufnstuf @8:55: We got our cowboys and indians from the likes of Roy Rogers, Gene Autry and company. Even though they shot the bad guys 40 times with a six-shooter, we saw no blood, no sex, no drugs, no profanity; none of the trash that passes for entertainment these days. Even though I only watch news programs and sports on TV, I still am bombarded with promotions of stuff that children shouldn’t see.
Atlanta mom too
December 29th, 2011
11:55 am
So a 7 yr old drew smiley faces on 2 stick figure with a gun. Was it a gun, or a gun that serves as a shrink ray, or a gun that shoots you to the moon. 7 yr olds frequently have other ideas regarding the action of a “weapon”. A child knows what a gun is but the imagination of a child is not on par with a 12 yr old. What he did not draw was a dead kid with blood all over him with a “you” pointing towards him. If the parents are so wigged out then they can certainly find a different, maybe private school for their child. Private schools do not have developmentally challenged students. Public Schools can not always protect kids, thats a fact. Parents are responsible for their babies. Stop complaining and make a choice.
Beverly Fraud
December 29th, 2011
11:56 am
“And maybe the schools don’t report every single incident is because when they do they get hammered with criticism and it is used as an excuse to blast the public school system.”
FORTY SCHOOLS reporting ZERO discipline incidents is a FAR cry from saying “schools don’t report every single incident” (In fact when the AJC ran the story I think the figure cited statewide was that oven one MILLION incidents weren’t reported-maybe Maureen can confirm that)
Now as an art teacher, do you not find it at least a BIT more disconcerting that A) the child was given the drawing and B) the drawing was labeled?
I'm a teacher
December 29th, 2011
11:57 am
Beverly – you see it as a death threat – but this is a 2nd grader – to them it may not be – the drawing, taken out of context (which you do not know, you are assuming the context) could be perfectly innocent, I was an art teacher for 11 years before switching subjects – I saw many students drawing things that I assumed was one thing but in talking to the artist ended up being something totally different. We don’t even know if it was clearly a gun – it could be a 2nd graders attempt to draw fingers (which in a 2nd graders drawing can look like a gun)
Again, there are all sorts of possible explanations to this situation. (can you tell I teach science now??)
I'm a teacher
December 29th, 2011
12:05 pm
Beverly – the discipline reporting issue is a district level problem – show up to your school board meeting and demand explanations and action – that is a top level problem – the schools could have been reporting it to the district and the district not reporting it (you know – kind of like misrepresenting test scores?) But this specific incident is a minor example of the discipline issues that schools are faced with and if this is blown out of proportion – don’t you think that is cause for schools not to be so “open” about other problems for fear of the back-lash?
Beverly Fraud
December 29th, 2011
12:08 pm
Beverly – you see it as a death threat – but this is a 2nd grader – to them it may not be –
I should have qualified that with the words “possible death threat”
“Again, there are all sorts of possible explanations to this situation.”
I agree. But if a school is going to redefine a “possible death threat” as “no cause for concern” then A) shouldn’t they be able to, in plain English, explain WHY and B) shouldn’t the parts be concerned that while at the same time the administration is claiming there’s no cause for concern, the school psychologist says the drawing raises concerns?
And where is the teacher in all of this? Why does one get the feeling (no proof, just feeling) that the teacher wasn’t included because she might not stay “on message” that the other child’s behavior isn’t a problem.
On the other hand, maybe she was covering for an absent art teacher LOL
Questions
December 29th, 2011
12:13 pm
If anything, this discussion illustrates the myriad of issues facing teachers every day, all of which impact the results of the far too many standardized tests we have to administer. People who spend little or no time in classrooms always seem to have overly simplistic solutions for meeting the challenges 21st century schools face every day. Maureen, these discussions are as important, and possibly more important than continually beating the tar out of the CRCT cheating scandal. And to go back to Ron Burgundy’s post, parents should be held accountable for their children’s behavior in school. This is one of the underpinnings of improving schools that seems to be left out of all reform efforts.
Beverly Fraud
December 29th, 2011
12:14 pm
don’t you think that is cause for schools not to be so “open” about other problems for fear of the back-lash?
Honestly @I’mateacher, no. I think the reason schools are open is that an HONEST discussion with HONEST solutions would involve A) empowering teachers and B) dismantling central office bureaucracies and I don’t think the educational establishment is prepared to do either
So I think in many ways they are FUNDAMENTALLY dishonest as institutions
I'm a teacher
December 29th, 2011
12:15 pm
Beverly – I guess we are perfect examples of this problem – your perspective is to that the administrators didn’t handle it perfectly (taking the time to answer all the parent’s concerns in a way that satisfied the parents) and mine that the parents are blowing this out of proportion (based on the evidence presented – that the parents are over-reacting – asking for the other child to be moved, not theirs) But I think we have come to a middle ground as to what the problems are and while we may never agree with the other – the communication has helped clear up some of the assumptions.
I'm a teacher
December 29th, 2011
12:19 pm
Beverly – I think the issue I have is that you tend to attack the teachers, and administrators when you issues seem to be with the district level policies – start bashing there and you may find you have more support – the teachers and the school level administrators already feel the squeeze – how about putting it where it belongs – the politicians of the schools – not the workers
Beverly Fraud
December 29th, 2011
12:19 pm
But I think we have come to a middle ground as to what the problems are and while we may never agree with the other – the communication has helped clear up some of the assumptions.
And I would guess, @I’m a teacher, that THAT, more than anything, is what the parents were looking for.
I do think two things undermine their credibility (if true)
1) Why not go to the TEACHER first?
2) Why ask for the other child to be removed? (But again, if you think administration isn’t being OPEN and HONEST with you, and you want to protect your child…)
Beverly Fraud
December 29th, 2011
12:20 pm
I’ll leave it at that for now, but i DO hope the parents who contacted Maureen will comment
Beverly Fraud
December 29th, 2011
12:23 pm
I’m a teacher-you might be the first person to ever call me a teacher basher LOL
Just look at the moniker (but I say for the record, any resemblance to any real persons is PURELY coincidental)
I'm a teacher
December 29th, 2011
12:35 pm
I am leaving it at that as well – and Beverly – it was good debating with you – and look – we did it without calling names and making snide comments
Richard Joseph
December 29th, 2011
12:46 pm
My only qualm with this is that the school is unable to facilitate a meeting between the parents. In all likelihood, the drawing is harmless…even if the child meant it as a threat it was more likely a hollow one like many threats made by children…but it’s certainly something worth bringing to the other parents attention and rationally discussing with them.
Unfortunately, it’s probably not wrong of the schools to assume that in most cases such conversations don’t go rationally. Still, the school should at least be able to pass the concerned parents contact information to the the other kids parents so that they can contact them directly if they’re willing to discuss the matter.
Man up
December 29th, 2011
1:01 pm
Richard, several laws and regulation prohibit the school doing that.
Also we need to note that the school cannot comment or explain their actions publically. We ate seeing one quite biased side to this story. I guarantee there is much more that went into the school’s decision on this. These type of patents just think the rules don’t apply to them and blame the admin for doing their job the way they have to by law and regulation.
Man up
December 29th, 2011
1:06 pm
Excuse the typos. Autocorrect and fat fingers are a horror.
If the parent really wants to talk to the other child’s parents I’m sure they can figure out a way to do so without school involvement. This isn’t what they want. They want to force the school to do what THEY want them to do. Why else send this to the paper? Crybaby didn’t get his way so he whines to Maureen, hoping it will put pressure on the school to do things the way he wants.
Baby.
drew (former teacher)
December 29th, 2011
1:17 pm
Beverly Fraud says:
“It comes down to reasonable risk and making INFORMED decisions.”
I agree 100%.
But who amongst us possesses the wisdom and intelligence to best determine what is a “reasonable risk” and what constitutes an “informed” decision? Obviously, the answer could only be…….Beverly Fraud.
Lee
December 29th, 2011
1:22 pm
The way I figure it, the parents in this case were from New Jersey and wanted the student suspended, just like they do “up nawth”. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,303796,00.html
Sounds to me the school exercised the proper amount of due diligence, investigated the incident, and concluded that a seven year old drawing pictures does not constitute an immediate threat that warranted further action.
Back when I was in school, they wouldn’t have given this a second thought. Of course, we toted pocket knives in first grade and played cowboys and indians during recess.
Decatur parent
December 29th, 2011
1:33 pm
A premier school system ought to have protocols in place to handle something like this. Ditto for when student deaths, field trip accidents, theft, muggings, etc. occur. My first question as a parent would be to ask to see the relevant policy and protocol. Then I would want to know if the protocol was followed. For less than a satisfactory answer to those questions, I would go right to the top to Superintendant and School Board who are ultimately responsible. The school administration and Central Office layers in between have a vested interest in not airing or responding to the issues. Central offices in many school systems operate like fiefdoms. They need better oversight and customer service. They think that parents and the community are somewhere down the educational hierarchy rather than at the top as the taxpayers that they serve. Asking questions of your school system is hard, often painful, and takes courage and persistence. But it’s necessary. It’s not just your child who will benefit but all the children whose parents either aren’t aware or cannot or won’t ask questions themselves.
Blue
December 29th, 2011
1:36 pm
Beverly; LEGITIMATE…INFORMED…CRITERIA…WE GOT IT!!!!!
Ron Burgundy
December 29th, 2011
1:39 pm
The bottom line is most institutions are in chaos due to being so hung up on getting sued. Not saying this is the culprit entirely but schools have little leeway in doing anything cause some Dbag is just looking for an excuse to get a lawsuit
Frivilous lawsuits is a major undoing of this country.
Decatur Parent Good Mother
December 29th, 2011
1:40 pm
Decatur Parent, Your last post on December 29th at 1:33 was outstanding. I appreciate your comments.
GM
BADA BING
December 29th, 2011
1:41 pm
They will get the 2nd graders crayon when they pry it from his wet, snotty fingers!
Lee
December 29th, 2011
1:43 pm
Looking back through all these comments, I see where @Beverly Fraud posted 55 times this morning. Slow day down at MACE, I suppose….
To Manu Up from Good Mother
December 29th, 2011
1:45 pm
You made a comment saying “If the parent really wants to talk to the other child’s parents I’m sure they can figure out a way to do so without school involvement. This isn’t what they want.”
First of all, we don’t know if the other child is known to the complaining parents. Teacher are required NOT to divulge that information because of a privacy policy.
Secondly, even when the child’s parents are known, you are making an assumption that the concerned parents can talk to the other parents and have a reasonble, educated conversation and conclusion. That is most certainly not often the case. We have no idea what kind of parents are on the other end. They could (many do) become very offended by the other parent and the situation could escalate far out of control. Surely, you’ve heard of situations where parents become violent?
The situation is properly addressed at school because that is where the incident occurred — in the classroom, in the school.
If the situation were at a public park, your expectations would certainly be reasonable. Just think about it for a minute, have you ever been threatened by a stranger? Perhaps you inadvertently cut someone off in traffic? Have you ever had a gun waved at you by a road rager? These events happen.
I would NOT advocate these concerned parents approach the other others. This is certainly not a safe thing to do.
BADA BING
December 29th, 2011
1:49 pm
The kid used the wrong media. This is ATL, if he had written a song about it with a strong bass line, he would have made millions of $.
To Beverly Fraud from Good Mother
December 29th, 2011
1:50 pm
Bev, you say “Again Good Mother that is a RED HERRING.
An EFFECTIVE school administrator can say “While I can’t discuss SPECIFIC children’s names, I can say this is how, in GENERAL terms, we determine if a child is a threat”
But many schools can’t say that, because their “strategy” is to ignore the waring signs until something TRULY bad happens. (See Westlake High).”
You don’t understand.
I agree with you that this incident is absolutley a cause for concern. Westlake High, Columbine, yes yes, I agree.
Guns are dangerous. Kids get guns and bring them to school and kill others. Yes, I agree, it is a cause for concern — a real, reasonable concern that every good parent would want to address.
You=Preacher
Me=Choir
Ron Burgundy
December 29th, 2011
1:52 pm
LOL Bada…I know. The child was merely celebrating Atlanta culture…where the playas play.
BADA BING
December 29th, 2011
1:54 pm
Was it in ATL public schools? What grade did he get on the drawing?
Beverly Fraud
December 29th, 2011
1:55 pm
Looking back through all these comments, I see where @Beverly Fraud posted 55 times this morning. Slow day down at MACE, I suppose….
Lee if I were anywhere the MACE office, I would agree with you.
Ron Burgundy
December 29th, 2011
1:55 pm
I am I the only American tax payer who feels we should get more out of our schools? I mean the US spends more money per student then any other country besides Luxembourg (I think). I know we are second. Way down the list is China, Korea, Japan and others. Those countries finished top five in math and science scores….way down THAT list was the US.
The answer lies in the parents. We want the schools to do everything…educate, babysit, dicipline, mold them. The schools are merely a tool like anything else. The parents are the engines responsible for maximizing this tool.
Ron Burgundy
December 29th, 2011
1:56 pm
Yesterday Maureen was talking about fair treatment to allow pagans to wear animal pelts and antler headdresses and carry sankara stones and now this??? SHEEESH!
Jennie
December 29th, 2011
1:57 pm
The parents of the child receiving the “threatening” drawing should do what they need to do for their child but to expect that the other child be removed from the class or that they be given confidential information about the other child is unrealistic. For all these parents know the other child’s parents might have been advised to seek professional help, etc. I’m not clear what they are expecting the school to do—public pillorying? And considering the sorts of things kids are exposed to on television and in video games these days why would anyone be surprised that a 7 year old would approach conflict in this way?
BADA BING
December 29th, 2011
1:58 pm
If they outlaw Crayons, only outlaws will have Crayons! And they will probably color outside the lines.
Ron Burgundy
December 29th, 2011
1:59 pm
Amen Jenine….parents of the “victim” probably let their kid do whatever. I am sure they have contacted a lawyer to make sure justice is done.
joe
December 29th, 2011
2:01 pm
“Georgia’s premier school systems”–OXYMORON
“at an award-winning school”–Simply means this is school is one of “the least worst” schools.
Want an environment where your kid actually learns something in GA? Try a private school…
Ron Burgundy
December 29th, 2011
2:01 pm
Teacher-turned-advocate? More like teacher-turned-wuss raiser
Beverly Fraud
December 29th, 2011
2:02 pm
But who amongst us possesses the wisdom and intelligence to best determine what is a “reasonable risk” and what constitutes an “informed” decision? Obviously, the answer could only be…….Beverly Fraud.
Well drew, (former teacher) I think if you give parents INFORMATION then they can make an INFORMED decision.
But here’s what I think drew. (Could be wrong I admit) The school KNOWS they have a major behavior problem on their hands, and that’s why they are in “duck and cover” mode with the parents.
The teacher KNOWS the other child (again, ONLY a guess) is a major behavior problem, but doesn’t get administrative support.
So the administration DELIBERATELY keeps the teacher “out of the loop” (meeting) so they can “spin it”
The parents aren’t buying it, so they are complaining to Maureen.
Given the SYSTEMIC DYSFUNCTION of schools, I’d place a wager that this is what is happening, even knowing FULL WELL the “helicopter parent” syndrome.
Not sure why others here, also knowing FULL WELL the systemic dysfunction of the schools, find it difficult to believe this a likely scenario.
Ron Burgundy
December 29th, 2011
2:03 pm
Back in the day a real parent would have said “son…if that punk draws a picture like thta again you take that picture and stuff it down his throat”
Sandy Springs Parent
December 29th, 2011
2:15 pm
@aps parent if you have enough money and either the parents or the grandparents are partners in the right firm any child can get into Lovett initially.
Enough money gets them all into Woodward, Whitefield and Holy Innocence. The donations keep them their until they actually get arrested or are found on property with drugs.
Then they are back in public school with 3-5 day a week tutors doing all their homework, projects, etc.
Those of us who struggled to buy at the low end of the housing market still about $400,000 for a fixer upper, that is 45 years old, are then forced to try to afford private tutors. Surprise, surprise the award winning school has even more incompetent teacher’s (coaches) then the average school or the school who just make AYP. Then you are dealing with the Boosters and the pay for play. That is a whole different story.
It is the great indifference or incompetence called Georgia schools and that is why they remain at the bottom of the pile.
Beverly Fraud
December 29th, 2011
2:16 pm
Back in the day Ron, BOTH boys would be in trouble for fighting. But “back in the day” the teacher would have waited a good 8-10 seconds to break up the fight so the victim could stand up for himself.
Dr. Proud Black Man
December 29th, 2011
2:25 pm
Is it just me or does Beverly Fraud sound like an anal retentive?