FAMU aftermath: DeKalb suspends all high school marching band activities
I have been talking to experts on hazing in the wake of the FAMU scandal, and one shared conclusion is that college hazing rituals have spread to high schools.
DeKalb County Schools apparently is concerned about that possibility, announcing today that the district is suspending all marching band activities pending an investigation of “possible inappropriate activities” among band members, alumni advisers, band directors and others.
Hazing has dominated the headlines because of the death last month of FAMU drum major Robert Champion. Metro Atlanta sends a lot of students to FAMU, so the death has been felt here, no where more acutely than Southwest DeKalb High school from which Champion graduated.
System spokesman Walter Woods said officials started asking questions at Southwest DeKalb High School because of connections to alleged hazing incidents at FAMU. Robert Champion, the FAMU band member who died, and another member, Bria Shante Hunter, who was injured, graduated from Southwest DeKalb. Two of three FAMU band members charged with injuring Hunter also hailed from the high school.
The system investigation unearthed some troubling finds, Woods said. He was not willing to disclose their nature yet.
Marching band activities countywide, except in special cases such as an upcoming Martin Luther King Day parade performance, will be suspended.
“Our concern is that student safety needs to be assured,” Woods said. “And we have a zero-tolerance policy for harassment or any other inappropriate behavior.”
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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216 comments Add your comment
Top School
December 14th, 2011
11:30 pm
And let’s not forget MAUREEN’S get schooled NUMBERS…She has so many followers…and so much experience…years and years…and this is the number one blogging site for the AJC…TITLE ACCOLADES…AWARDS…!!!
Why would students be hazing other students? I have no idea why?
Lita
December 14th, 2011
11:32 pm
Please help me understand why the media is acting as if HAZING didn’t exist before a month ago and that it only exists in “drum-line style” marching bands? And now Dekalb County is running scared and shutting down all band activities. I know sense ain’t common, but come on, let’s try to use some common sense. You can investigate A reported incident from the summer without going overboard. And let us all remember hazing isn’t just hitting and paddling, forcing people to drink excessively and do stupid dangerous stunts is also hazing. This is seen mostly in your two-word college organizations. Yikes, I’ll put that CARD back in my pocket.
I also hear some HATE in the comments about SWD, and I have not ties to SWD. There are skeletons of some type in all closets, check your own. It’s amazing how one focused issue brings out all other political issues of the entire school system, while who suffers… The Students
Just shut down all extracurricular activities, you bunch of Scrooges, just looking to say I told you so, because you just hate to see others doing anything well.
Lita
December 15th, 2011
12:03 am
Interesting thing about this is, more than likely the hazing didn’t happen during band practice. It happens away from the adults or directors. Just as most fraternity/sorority hazing happens when advisors are not around, most athletic hazing happens when coaches aren’t around.
Leaders can teach, train, denounce, punish, etc. People will do what they want until a few are caught and punished and then it will stop and cycle around and start again because young people think “it won’t happen to me”
Organizations and leaders should set the expectations and punish the people who participate (hazers and those being hazed) and others should not blanket an entire organization.
Personal responsibility is lacking in general, not just in these cases. It’s always someone else fault that he/she did something stupid. No, it’s his/her fault especially if warned and instructed prior to an incident. I agree with a previous post, LAWYERS !!! Of course you can’t get much money from the individual so it’s the institution’s fault.
Circa1978
December 15th, 2011
12:07 am
@ Lita – I agree that the media is fueling much of this. I also think hazing will continue long after the reporters move on to the next story. However, DCSS would be foolish
to ignore its ties to FAMU.
High school band members will often go to FAMU, Southern or any HBCU with a decent band, graduate from college and then RETURN to their old high school to work with the band unofficially and sometimes officially get hired as instructors. DCSS is supposed to ignore that cycle and assume that those former students don’t bring any of their hazing methods with them? The ostrich approach doesn’t work well in negligence cases and a plaintiff’s lawyer would have a field day.
Band Mom II
December 15th, 2011
12:19 am
@ Band Mom: As a WWE booster parent, I can tell you that “WE,” do fund raisers all year round and don’t depend on funding from the county. Secondly, our band director is passionate about his students and his program. Education and tutorial comes first, then practice. When our kids practice, they give it 110%. They are highly recognized because they are taught and trained by a true professional. Hazing is not condoned in our school. Our parents are fully involved and are on campus during every practice, game and field trip. Parents need to teach their kids individuality and respect for themselves and others. Furthermore, kids today lack morals. Self worth is everything, because with that comes acceptance. The events that have taken place are unfortunate, but preventable. I say, let Dekalb County continue with their investigation. They need to investigate all programs, not just band. However, don’t single SWD out due to media speculation. Every program takes hard work and dedication and sometimes it won’t be suitable for everyone. In return you get complaints. Our focus should be prevention and cleaning house.
Band Mom II
December 15th, 2011
12:35 am
Thank you Lita! I am proud of SWD, the band director and all the students; especially my own. SWD is not just about marching band. Their concert and wind symphony rocks too! The entire program is outstanding! I wish the media could have been at the winter concert last week.
OTOH
December 15th, 2011
12:41 am
English teacher: yes, “irrespective” is a word. look it up.
The connection between music and math is not that learning music improves understanding of math. The connection is those who are good at math are more likely to be good at music also than those who are not good at math.
The real scandal here is DeKalb’s school officials are not telling DeKalb what happened where.
Band Alumni, Fraternity Man
December 15th, 2011
12:59 am
The girl suing FAMU doesn’t deserve one cent and should apologize for wasting the court’s and the school’s time with her case. She VOLUNTEERED to take part in that activity and could have stopped it at any point by saying no and leaving. That would have been the end of it. I’ll check the Florida law but I know in Alabama the law states:
(b) No person shall engage in what is commonly known and recognized as hazing, or encourage, aid, or assist any other person thus offending.
(c) No person shall knowingly permit, encourage, aid, or assist any person in committing the offense of hazing, or willfully acquiesce in the commission of such offense, or fail to report promptly his knowledge or any reasonable information within his knowledge of the presence and practice of hazing in this state to the chief executive officer of the appropriate school, college, university, or other educational institution in this state. Any act of omission or commission shall be deemed hazing under the provisions of this section.
In other words the hazer and hazee are both guilty of committing hazing in Alabama. It seems in Florida the only guilty party is the one striking, not the one allowing others to strike them. Ridiculous.
Another Math Teacher
December 15th, 2011
1:34 am
English Teacher:
“@ Old Physics Teacher: “Irrespective” is not a word. Duh.”
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=irrespective
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/irrespective
Hope you aren’t a real teacher.
GA parent/teacher
December 15th, 2011
5:05 am
What amazes me is the local hazing of high school freshman where they are “kidnapped,” taken to a field where even blood is poured over them among other things. The parents even give their permission for this to be done to their children. It is unbelievable!
Note
December 15th, 2011
5:16 am
Actually, studies have indicated that the brain benefits from music instruction by creating new neural pathways. Take the music therapy with Ms. Gifford to point…. same process! Students demonstrate improved math skills when engaging in piano or other music instruction. Subdividing rhythms and using symbolic representation does translate into improved ability with basic math skills. Maybe not physics, but for many students, this is a way to improve concentration, and build skills. Music teachers work with all students. And band directors take any student that applies. The true benefit to band is the other skills it teaches: teamwork, discipline, cooperation, respect, leadership….
yes i am worried
December 15th, 2011
6:24 am
The ban is only for 30 days most of which are Winter Break and there is an exception for some activities spelled out and band directors can ask for other exceptions.
I think the problem here is Don Roberts, head of Instructional Music for the school system and his connection to FAMU and SWD and other school based employees who are band directors and FAMU alumni.
I suspect that Dr. Atkinson was told something, more than one vague incident, that has given her pause. Otherwise, this makes no sense given how little is going on in most marching band programs this time of year.
Big Woop
December 15th, 2011
6:33 am
How much marching is going on this time of the year anyway? A Xmas parade?
Inman Park Boy
December 15th, 2011
6:44 am
Ineffably sad that ADULTS have allowed things to reach this point. Just who is in charge of these bands? Well, suspend THEM!
OH WOW
December 15th, 2011
6:52 am
Wow so they suspended all bands?? I know Swd and Stephenson both have some top notch programs, I know they are going crazy over there. But the only connection I can see between Famu and Dekalb is that most of dekalb band directors are Famu alumni and alot of dekalb band graduates attend Famu. If im not mistaking SWD AND STEPHENSON both got they whole style from Famu. But what goes on in college faternities shouldnt affect high schools anywhere. Its absurd
Mahopinion
December 15th, 2011
8:13 am
Typical bureaucrat reaction…something “might” have happened so shut down the program for everyone. My daughter’s school has had 3 bomb threats in 3 years…by Dekalb’s logic, all schools should be closed just in case some one might really be planning something.
Cosby
December 15th, 2011
8:20 am
a knee jerk reaction but I bet that the school board is licking their chops at a way to cut the budget…no crises left behind… Stupid Dekalb county shows up again! But then, that is the Government Schools for you!
prettylady1020
December 15th, 2011
8:21 am
I agree with you Just A Teacher, also, what happens to the well-rounded child if all those extra activities like music, art or home economics are cut or not viewed as a priority? We’ll have a whole bunch of aloof, book smart adults with no common sense! That’s tragic!
Old Physics Teacher
December 15th, 2011
8:54 am
that’s muffin jam:
You must have just scanned my post. I didn’t say there wasn’t a correlation between math and music. Most of the posters correctly identified that it was a CORRELATION.
Old Physics Teacher
December 15th, 2011
9:08 am
that’s muffin jam,
sorry, I hit tab and it posted accidentally.
To continue: Correlation does not now, or ever, imply causation. Just because you’re good in one field, doesn’t mean that the same ability CAUSES, or HELPS, activity in another field. The correlation could be easier made between SES and math and music, but one just doesn’t CAUSE the other. I have seen many kids who were good in math, science, literature,history, economics, sports, AND music. I’ve also seen kids good in only one of those fields that stunk in the others. Hypothesizing about the loss of marching band EXTRACURRICULAR activities CAUSING a drop in EDUCATION is … just wrong. If you’re implying that there is a cause and effect, they could get as much “effect” (cough, cough) by setting in a chair in their music room (or at home) simply playing their music. MARCHING band does not improve grades in academic areas any more than improving academic scores improving marching band.
Now, if you want to talk about the loss of physical activity, if you want to talk about the loss of socialization skills, if you want to talk about the POSSIBILITY of over reaction of administrators – fine, but don’t try to put a guilt trip on the administration using that poor of an argument.
Frankie
December 15th, 2011
9:09 am
Hazing in colleges and High schools have been going on since before i graduated back in 1983. Football, basketball, baseball, even cheerleading (if you consider that a sport)Even the band had some hazing going on.
The problem is kids want to be accepted by a group, if you know that hazing exists and you decide to join isn’t that the same as if you r house is on fire and you decide to go in and stand around in it.. you will get burned.
Hazing is a choice, either you accept it or you don’t.
I pledged a raternity where hazing existed. If I thought for one minute that it was too much i would have left…
Not saying that it is right or wrong. the degree to which thee young people are going to, it is much more about trying to control a person or rule over a person than it is about developing that person to become a part of their organization.
Dunwoody Mom
December 15th, 2011
9:12 am
Did DCSS over-react? Maybe, but after a time to think about this, I believe it to be a good move. It’s better to err on the side of caution. I’m sure that there is some information that we are not privy to that led to this decision. It’s only for a short period of time and marching band season is over, so I’m not sure how much this, if any, will affect the band programs at the schools.
Frankie
December 15th, 2011
9:13 am
The problem I have with this whole thing is a group called RED DOGs or Gistapo or whatever are not FRATERNITIES or SORORITIES…
I see why the fraternities and soroities are not jumoing in the middle of this, they woul dhave to accoint for years of hazing and misconduct.
But these groups RED DOG, etc. are not Fraternities or Soroities, they do not have by laws, charters, etc….they are groups or gangs if you will formed by a student form a specific area n this case Decatur, GA (SW Dekalb HS)
THe fraternities are getting a bad wrap the onlyFraternity in that exist in the BAND is Kappa Kappa Psi and i can’t recall the sorotity but those are the only two chartered organizations.
Why aren’t they stepping up to distance themselve away from this..
hryder
December 15th, 2011
9:21 am
Special performance cases? This is a perfect example of assinine irrational thought which perpetuates ignorance and a lack of “RESPECT” for authorities.
Just A Teacher
December 15th, 2011
9:35 am
I stand by my earlier comment. Arts education is equally important as any other aspect of higher learning. You don’t eliminate an educational program because some of the people in that program act like idiots. You punish the offenders and continue the program. Take those people guilty of hazing out of the band. They should be in an alternative education program anyway if they think that assaulting another person is acceptable behavior. All of the posters who recognize that test scores of students who participate in fine and performing arts programs earn higher grades and perform better on standardized tests (on average) than those who don’t are correct. Don’t eliminate a valuable educational experience because of a few idiots. Put them in alternative school or jail and keep the program intact.
Beverly Fraud
December 15th, 2011
9:36 am
Does this sound plausible:
That they found activity that needs to be stopped at SELECTED schools, but wanting to be POLITICALLY CORRECT they stopped activity at ALL schools so that no one would accuse them of bias and prejudice? So this action buys TIME so they can figure out what to do?
Don’t know if that’s what happened, but wouldn’t be surprised in the least.
OH WOW
December 15th, 2011
9:51 am
@Frankie: Red dogs are a band organization for Georgia alumni in College bands.
@DunwoodyMom : I was in band in dekalb and their was NO HAZING going on. NO ONE got touched at all. The whole hazing thing in dekalb bands really stopped around that drumline era. Its no “maybes” about it.Dekalb went about this the wrong way, They are doing this because of the ties dekalb has with FAMU, But the hazing that goes on at famu is ALL college band related. Stuff high schoolers dont even know about. The dude at FAMU who died, was trying to cross his COLLEGE BAND. His actions have nothing to do with DeKalb bands, but because he and the other girl are alumns of DeKalb, and because SWD band directors made kids do push ups. DeKalb bands have to suffer. That is idiotic
The point is that it over 1,000 students in bands in dekalb county alone. Some of you posting do not know how big music programs are in dekalb. Its not just band. Schools like SWD and Stephenson have bands known throughout the nation. They both went to Macys, Rose Bowl, the have both traveled out of state and SWD and Stephenson students were used in the hit movie DRUMLINE. And there are other great bands like Redan, Miller Grove and MLK. Cutting the band because of ties with FAMU is absurd. No one from dekalb has been hurt or touched. Dekalb messed up because every year they have a Battle of the bands and Jamboree that brings in THOUSANDS every year. The band jamboree last year paid for new uniforms for the basketball teams. The Battle of the bands and Jamboree combined brings in more money than the football games combined! Bands are a culture in dekalb. DO YOUR RESEARCH
Frankie
December 15th, 2011
9:55 am
The reason they halted band activity is to give them time to assess the situation, in addition, you have several band leaders, etc. across the county who have direct ties to both SWD and FAMU…..
I would not be surprised if you see other counties follow suit across the state and even in other states…
My problem is this is TOO LITTLE….TOO LATE..a man has already lost his life…yes take steps to correct it now, but it has been known for DECADES and to eliminate it now will be a miracle. You may reduce but elimination is not possible…to many underground organization that the schools allow to exist oncampus both colleges and Highschool….
OHHH and lets not forget about the middle schools….
Miss Management
December 15th, 2011
9:56 am
These were not instances of ‘hazing’. One was assault and battery (they BROKE her thigh bone) and the other is homicide. You cannot rename it something that sounds harmless or childlike. There is nothing innocent about these stories.
Fred
December 15th, 2011
9:56 am
I wonder how Reverend King would feel today knowing that he is more important than Jesus. We can’t have a marching band miss marching on HIS birthday, but forget about in celebration of Jesus’s birthday.
williebkind
December 15th, 2011
10:01 am
“Arts programs have tends to be better students with higher GPAs”
Yeah when I got tired of taking classes that made me think and wanted to improve my GPA I took music appreciation. An “A” every time.
Frankie
December 15th, 2011
10:02 am
@OH WOW….you did not SEE ANY HAZING going on..pretty naive thinking to think it stopped after a MOVIE was produced…
Does the RED DOG Organization have a charter, by laws…if not …they are not a FRATERNITY or SORORITY….this band organization is being linked to a FRATERNITY….it is merely a group of individuals….
Been to college, pledged…I know the difference between a group and a FRAT….
HIGH SCHOOLS have been and still haze as part of whatever the organization is….you just don’t see it or hear about it until someone gets hurt…
Just because it is not on campus does not mean it does not happen…
William Casey
December 15th, 2011
10:09 am
I TOTALLY agree with JUST A TEACHER’s 9:35 post. I am also embarrased to be a graduate of SWD, class of ‘67. Guess I’ll have to get over it.
Warrior Woman
December 15th, 2011
10:15 am
@carlosgsv – Some have said that Mr. Chapman’s beating was punishment for dropping his baton during a performance. It was almost certainly NOT hazing, since he had been a band member for years.
Frankie
December 15th, 2011
10:20 am
Ummm…Warrior Woman.
yes you are correct it was not hazing in the sence that he was not seeking to join the group, but even some “organizations” if you will, still conduct hazing even after becoming a member…
Take the ROTC (college) for example..if you drop your rifle during a performance you will most certainly do pushups, and whatever othe punishment the company commander can think of …and they are not given a second look..
Dr NO / Mr Sunshine
December 15th, 2011
10:23 am
If the non-hazing rules are to be put into effect then shouldnt the school lunch program be suspended, permanently?
mem
December 15th, 2011
10:23 am
Just because you don’t see it, doesn’t mean it’s not happening. It has been and is still happening in many of the high school marching bands. Dr. Atkinson is right to suspend all marching bands until they investigate fully. The season is over and school is out tomorrow so no harm no foul. Unless you aren’t reading the reports correctly and aren’t aware of what’s going on in the larger community, you won’t understand the thinking behind the Superintendent’s actions. As taxpayers, do you really want out money to go to another lawsuit?
Those FAMU style high school band directors in the county know this stuff is happening, and so do some parents, and all seem to think it ok and may be necessary to build character. Nonsense. When you have kids supervising kids, are you suprised that they mimic what the adults do, and most likely brag about goin through? It’s part of the culture within many of the county’s marching bands and someone needs to put a stop to it before what happened at FAMU happens in one of the high schools. It may well be too late, but you need to start somewhere.
Really amazed
December 15th, 2011
10:26 am
To the comment about the athletic program, pull off those shoulder pads off and stick an instrument in the football, basketball, baseball players mouth instead. Oh heaven forbid, they might have to concentrate and learn!! Learning how to play an instrument for hours and play it right takes much concentration and discipline. Try playing the trumpet for hours at a time without running around. Then you will see what true dedication is all about!!!! Plus once the football season is over the athlete gets a brake. Not so for the band kid!!! ALL YEAR AROUND! Especially for the ones that are not only in marching band but also in concert, orchestra pit for the play, jazz band, pep band. Then also try out for Jan Fest, GISA, ALL STATE etc. While keeping up with other extra curr, grades and community service.
Frankie
December 15th, 2011
10:28 am
@mem…..Agree 1000000% just would like to see the Fraternities and Sororities step up and denounce what happened and begin to REALLY put in place measures to stop the hazing, assault, etc…..
Where are the fraternities and sororities national presidents…join in become a part of the solution and not a part of the problem…..
Calling all FRAT and Sorors to the floor….
Dr NO / Mr Sunshine
December 15th, 2011
10:30 am
“Dr” Atkinson. LMAO!! Dr. Thats a good one.
Old Physics Teacher
December 15th, 2011
10:36 am
Note:
“Actually, studies have indicated that the brain benefits from music instruction by creating new neural pathways.”
Actually they don’t. The studies are quite flawed. When you start out to “prove” something instead of just “observing,” you generally find exactly what you are looking for – even if it’s not there in the first place – duh!
THAT BEING SAID…
“The true benefit to band is the other skills it teaches: teamwork, discipline, cooperation, respect, leadership…”
YOU COULDN’T BE MORE CORRECT. That is the benefit to all extra-curricular activities. They shouldn’t do away with band, and I don’t think they plan to.
The administration is simply trying to make sure what happened at FAMU doesn’t happen in a PUBLIC SCHOOL. Are they over-reacting: probably. What would happen if significant hazing WAS going on and they didn’t do a due diligence investigation? What would happen if it was YOUR son/daughter that was injured? ANS: After you sued the school system into bankruptcy, you’d hang each one of them from the tallest tree. Would I have shut everything down: no! But I’m not on the hot seat like they are.
Deal with it – it’s Christmas – let it go.
mem
December 15th, 2011
10:52 am
@Frankie, I know that many parents out there know this stuff is going on in their bands but won’t step forward to say anything. Unfortunately, the message they are sending to their kids is that it’s necessary to go through this stuff to be “in” the group. I thought you were in because you made the program in the first place. The schools schools that feed the HBCU colleges do need to be looked at because these kids didn’t just up and decide to join these so-called organization when they got to college. They are being groomed from middle school, when they first join these high school marching bands. If parents aren’t aware of what goes on in the band room and out on the field, that’s a shame. Kids can be mean, and they are meaner to those they know they can torment and get away with it. Code of silence all around. Alumni are an even bigger problem in many cases because they bring this nonsense into the programs and promote it.
So many of these kids live for marching band, and it’s the high point in their lives when they get into one of these marching bands. They like being in symphonic band, but they live for marching band. The Sorors and Frats don’t want to touch this third rail.
As to the The Sorors and Frats, they don’t want to touch this third rail.
Dekalbite@Beverly Fraud
December 15th, 2011
10:58 am
I don’t think Dr. Atkinsonis being “politically correct”. It appears that she has heard of some disturbing incidents and wants to develop guidelines and disciplinary measures for infractions. DeKalb could use some backing on the discipline front. Set the rules in place for everyone and stick to them. Not having tight disciplinary policies that are enforced for ALL DCSS schools has been unfair to the students who come to school every day to learn whether it’s math, music, art, science, etc.
Do you have access to the DCSS published policy for hazing? If you do, could you please share that link? If you don’t, then maybe there is not a published policy or maybe it is inadequate.
This is the first disciplinary policy that I have seen Dr. Atkinson address. I support her because discipline is a huge issue for DCSS teachers and students. Her attempts to tighten up discipline will be met with much resistance on the part of one faction or another. This is a very good example of how that happens.
Dunwoody Mom
December 15th, 2011
11:08 am
I like the fact that Dr. Atkinson was not afraid to take a tough and, in some places, an unpopular stance. Maybe there is hope yet.
OH WOW
December 15th, 2011
11:16 am
@Frankie. RED DAWGS are at every HBCU. It is like a faternity. R.D.O dates back to the 90’s so they have THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of R.D.O members. They have a similar initiation to faternities. My brother is both R.D.O from TSU and Omega Psi Phi and me and him just had a discussion about this. Its all similar and a faternity in its own right. And while I was in high school, hazing didnt exist. Hazing is not this “common” thing like the media tries to portrays. The most we did was physicial exercise. Push ups, running around the track. It was never anything to serious like hitting. NEVER.
And to reply to the comment about the girl who broke her thigh. People you need to realize, that all happened while she was in college! She didn’t get hazed in high school. SHE WAS IN COLLEGE, in florida! College band and High school band is obviously two diffrent ball games! And also how is she suing the school(Famu)? She chose to go to the apartment and from her interview she knew what they were going to do. She made the decission and because she got hurt she wants to sue? WOW. She is a grown up now. She chose to go through the initiation so she could “be apart”. Just like Robert Champion. What happened was awful but he was a 26 year old man!! He died trying to cross his band bus. HE CHOSE TO CROSS THE BUS! They dont force you to do it. It was a chose made by him. R.i.p to him but he made that decision. Im not saying ppl shouldnt be punished
Miss Management
December 15th, 2011
11:18 am
@Frankie – are you comparing homicide to being forced to do push ups in the army? How can anyone think these events should be anything other than criminal acts?
Miss Management
December 15th, 2011
11:20 am
I think RED DAWGS would better be defined as a gang.
OH WOW
December 15th, 2011
11:42 am
@miss management : If R.D.O is better defined as a gang then thats what you should call all of these faternities and sorrorities. They All haze. No matter if they are majority Black, white, or hispanic THEY ARE ALL THE SAME. They all do the same things.
Hazing: DeKalb (GA) suspends all high school marching band activities | Get Schooled | Leading Schools | Scoop.it
December 15th, 2011
11:50 am
[...] Hazing: DeKalb (GA) suspends all high school marching band activities | Get Schooled [...]
mem
December 15th, 2011
11:53 am
@MissManagement, in their minds this is a fraternal order because the young woman was punished for not reciting some guideline of theirs. If you do some research on hazing at some HBCU’s you’ll see that one young man was beaten so badly he was in a coma. Wasn’t the Red Dogs the tough APD drug unit.