Sunday AJC: A debate on guns on campuses and the hazing culture at FAMU. Take a look.
The Sunday AJC revisits two education-related topics that have inspired a lot of comments here on the blog this week; There is an excellent piece on the culture of hazing at Florida A&M University. (See earlier blog on FAMU.)
And there is a good piece on guns on campus. (See earlier blog on Tech and guns.)
Today’s guns on campus AJC piece features a pro/con on the issue.
Speaking for the pro is Jason Shepherd, 36, general counsel, Young Republican National Federation, and former political aide to Newt Gingrich.
From the story:
The way Jason Shepherd sees it, college students are easy marks for criminals. They carry cash, laptops, iPods, expensive smartphones. And they are unarmed. “It sends an open message to the criminal element of Atlanta: Come. Here are easy pickings,” he said. “If you go onto a college campus, with the exception of campus police, you are going to be looking at a completely unarmed and helpless group of people.
“I think it’s an issue both parents and policy-makers really need to be concerned about.”
Shepherd said new legislation should be passed to allow students to bring guns on college campuses. And parents should consider gun safety training for their high school-aged children before they send them off to college.
“We are not really talking about kids; we are talking about young adults,” Shepherd said. “If they join the Army or any of the armed forces, they are going to be given a gun. In Georgia, there is a history and culture of hunting and sportsmanship. A lot of kids who are native to Georgia have grown up with the understanding that guns are a tool and not a toy and they need to be treated with respect, as something that is potentially dangerous.
And representing the con is Frank V. Rotondo, 62, executive director, Georgia Association of Chiefs of Police.
From the story:
“The reality is, you can get a permit in Georgia if you’re 84 years of age and blind,” Rotondo said. “That’s true.” Rotondo said before co-eds begin toting guns across campus, Georgia needs to make its gun permit process more rigorous.
“The one thing that the permit statutes don’t do is [require] a professional exam,” he said. “I would relax a lot more if, in order to obtain a permit in Georgia, you have to pass a firearm safety program and a proficiency program.”
Rotondo said after that requirement, the decision could be left up to the universities to decide whether to allow guns, and to parents to decide whether to send their teens to schools that allow weapons in dorms.
“We all have to be very aware that most of the students on campus are under the age of 21, which would be under the legal age to receive a permit,” he said. “Often campus rooms are shared rooms with a lot of freedom. There is a slight degree of probability that a weapon may be taken from a room. … You have to worry about the ingestion of alcohol. There is a high correlation of people going to undergraduate school and drinking.”
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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72 comments Add your comment
April
December 11th, 2011
9:08 am
I think all other options outside of carrying guns should be considered. If guns are.allowed on campuses that should be public information so parents can make informed decisions. What about tasers? I think that would be a much better solution.
Beverly Fraud
December 11th, 2011
9:20 am
Other than the overwhelming possibility exists that a bunch of drunken frat boys would recreate their own “Don’t tase me bro!” moments, tasers seem like a reasonable compromise in the short term, while we argue about the principles of the matter.
No doubt a little well placed electrical current could put a little hitch in the giddy-up of a potential mugger.
nelson
December 11th, 2011
9:55 am
What could be worse than armed students? armed felons is the only one i can think of.
Teddy Roosevelt
December 11th, 2011
10:01 am
The felons are already armed, so you might as well let the students do something to defend themselves….
Ron
December 11th, 2011
10:06 am
Hope this signals the end of “teacher/school quality/safety” articles for a while. Glad to have a break from that!
Maureen Downey
December 11th, 2011
10:13 am
@Ron, I am about to post on a teacher quality series installment that ran today — on teacher evaluations — but it is subscriber only so it will not appear online at all.
Maureen
Inman Park Boy
December 11th, 2011
10:51 am
Two more Tech students assaulted last week. Are we simply to throw up our hands and offer our colllege students up for slaughter? Downtown Atlanta is disgraceful.
Beverly Fraud
December 11th, 2011
10:57 am
Why don’t the administrators who want to leave it up to campus police, take a stroll through downtown with some students, so they can REALLY demonstrate their faith in the status quo?
Mr. P
December 11th, 2011
11:19 am
I will never forget watching the Q-dogs (Alpha Psi Alpha) carry bricks and barking like dogs outside our dining hall at UGA in the mid 1980’s when I was a students. Hazing is degrading apparently accepted at FAMU as long as the band brings in the cash. Suspend the entire organization, send a message. A slap on the hand will not do!
Prof
December 11th, 2011
11:36 am
@ Ron, 10:06 am. I have to say that I followed the blogs on “school quality”– related to APS redistricting– with a great deal of interest, even though my own “child” is grown. I thought it was a real public service to have an avenue for information and exchange of ideas for the parents involved….sent it as an FYI to colleagues with children in the affected areas.
mountain man
December 11th, 2011
11:42 am
As far as hazing is concerned – there are plenty of hazing methods that don’t involve physical hazards. Why people still do the “physical hazard” hazing is beyond me. Because the cult of silence does not allow the perpetrators to be identified, and then they are not fully prossecuted.
About guns on campus – if the police cannot fully protect the students, then they should be given the right to carry guns. Right now they are treated as second-class citizens ( on both alcohol and guns).
mountain man
December 11th, 2011
11:44 am
Speaking of that, Maureen – how about doing an article on alcohol and colleges – how that stupid law makes no sense?
tony
December 11th, 2011
11:46 am
i think there needs to be an intelligence test for anyone who wants to purchase a gun and for anyone who wants to vote.
Digger
December 11th, 2011
11:54 am
Don’t forget the high school kids. Might not see so many broken jaws if they carried too.
darattler
December 11th, 2011
11:57 am
@ Mr. P – You are sadly misinformed on all fronts. The Q Dogs are Omega Psi Phi (not Alpha Phi Alpha as you contend). Hazing is practiced OFF CAMPUS by underground, non-sanctioned groups at FAMU. That type of behavior is unacceptably by FAMU. Off campus hazing is the responsibility of the local police, not the university. With regard to UGA, there’s a long documented history of crime, hazing, drug abuse and other deviant behavior by both athletes and non athletes. I think we need to send a strong message and shut down UGA.
Google hazing at UGA and any other college in America. The results will blow your mind. This is not a FAMU problem, but a problem for colleges across this country. I’m sure that Virginia Tech wish they had FAMU’s problems right about now.
Old School
December 11th, 2011
12:05 pm
Mr. P…. While most reasonable people, including me, would agree that hazing is stupid and should be stopped, let me correct you on two points. First, the fraternity is Alpha Phi Alpha, and they are not the Q-dogs. That is a different fraternity.
redweather
December 11th, 2011
12:37 pm
Wouldn’t it make more sense for Georgia Tech to increase security? Of course, that would mean Georgia Tech would have to hire more security officers and buy more patrol cars, etc. So instead we leave it up to students to buy their own guns and carry them on campus? That sounds like a really stupid idea.
the prof
December 11th, 2011
2:39 pm
I am so against this carry on campus garbage, but if it passes, believe me, I will be carrying a larger caliber than my students.
Digger
December 11th, 2011
2:53 pm
And the administration will carry a larger caliber than the professors. Every campus will have an arms race.
Teddy Roosevelt
December 11th, 2011
2:56 pm
Tell that to my S&W 500
jasonfightscrime
December 11th, 2011
3:53 pm
Not all students are in the 18-21 age range. I was in the Army at those ages.
Recall that the standards for a weapons license in Georgia require that a person be 21 and pass a criminal background history.
catlady
December 11th, 2011
4:06 pm
Well, I am thinkin’ there wouldn’t be much hazing if those being hazed could be carrying a gun! Bend over for a paddling? No way! Bam bam Bam! Problem solved.
TIC
iRun
December 11th, 2011
4:11 pm
I think the issue we have here is jurisdiction. GATech has stepped up it’s patrols, from what I understand. But most of this crime is happening in APD jurisdiction. I think the city needs to make some sort of contract with GATech to allow GATech officers jurisdiction off campus.
GTJohn
December 11th, 2011
4:15 pm
I think the colleges should capitalize on the gun carry situation and implement a set of courses to be taken and, upon successful completion, allow for the licensed carry on campus. that way the school serves notice to the thugs that people acutally trained in the use of firearms is active on campus. Plus the school can provide a service to the community by training students to be responsible and capable firearm owners. I believe you would see a reduction in crime across the country if it were implemented at colleges everywhere. Why should students settle for being obvious targets since the judicial system will not do it’s job and lock up criminals permanently?
Jason Stubbs
December 11th, 2011
4:29 pm
There are a few facts missing from this equation and discussion. For instance,(1) the same age a person can qualify for a Georgia Weapons License (GWL) is the same age to apply to become a GT police officer which is 21. And (2) currently, the law classifies “any pistol, that fires a missle of any kind” as a weapon, which also means a NERF gun is considered a weapon. Along with that (3) there are many instances where tasers were used with no effect due to multiple layers of clothing or drug infused perpetrators (ask the police about that) and (3a) the law also classifies a TASER as a weapon to be licensed as well.
2nd Amendment
December 11th, 2011
4:41 pm
If Rotondo thinks it is unsafe to allow students to exercise their Constitution rights, what other Constitutional rights does he want to suspend?
If he thinks it safe for students to be unarmed, let see if he would be willing to walk in the areas that the students must traverse without protection. Perhaps the police should be unarmed also. He sounds like a typical liberal.
Buzz 94
December 11th, 2011
4:52 pm
The police can’t be everywhere; consequently, students need to be able to defend themselves against armed criminals. Perhaps the focus should be taking the guns away from the criminals … not the students. Wise up Atlanta!
Yellow Jacket 89
December 11th, 2011
4:56 pm
Because of the location, GT has always had a problem with crime and thugs. Allowing students to arm themselves sounds like a good idea. Perhaps it will help level the playing field.
GT Mom
December 11th, 2011
5:00 pm
Obviously, the GT police can’t protect the students.
APD can’t protect anyone.
Allowing responsible students to carry firearms will help to level the playing field.
Other States have allowed firearms on campus without the blood shed that is usually predicted.
Nancy
December 11th, 2011
5:01 pm
Buzz 94 is correct. The police cannot be there to protect you at all times or now days even half the time. If a person meets the requirements to own and carry a firearm then they should be allowed to carry. Do you think a criminal cares about any laws??? If anything gun free zones tell a criminal where to go because they know more than likely their target is unarmed and helpless….
Larry Major
December 11th, 2011
5:06 pm
Heed Chief Rotondo’s statements because he is speaking from years of experience. If you have no training, the only person your new Glock will kill is you. Folks, we are discussing the use of deadly force and it must be addressed seriously and realistically.
Even if you grew up with firearms the way I did (I was in my first firefight at 12 years old) you still need training. Typical civilian robberies are ambushes, which are very different from the choice of firearms, ammunition and strategies involved in protecting your home or business.
If you qualify for a GA Weapons Carry License (previously, the GFL), you need to at least have the training required for the Secretary of State Firearms license.
If your personality allows you to learn the correct way to take a human life without hesitation while protecting nearby innocents, then I encourage you to do it; the world needs more people like you.
Otherwise, do nothing because you will only be part of the problem.
Typical Democrat
December 11th, 2011
5:08 pm
We can’t allow students to be armed and try to protect themselves.
They must be taught to depend on government for protection.
No matter how often the police fail to protect…let’s continue to place all of our hope with police…so a few students are robbed, assaulted or even killed…it is more important to keep guns away from law abiding citizens.
JJ
December 11th, 2011
5:12 pm
Attention Larry Major at 5:06pm,
Any suggestions on how to keep criminals from obtaining firearms? Or are you only concerned about law abiding citizens obtaining firearms?
raleturn
December 11th, 2011
5:24 pm
I think it is time citizens take matters into their own hands by patrolling the streets themselves off of GT campus armed to the gill like the movie Death Wish with Charles Bronson !!! I loved the scene where he pulled a car over to the side of the road and wrote out of gas on it. When a thug began to strip his car he came out of the bushes and arranged an immediate meeting between the thug and his maker.
8474
December 11th, 2011
5:26 pm
Don’t place all of your faith in the police being there or getting there in time…Glock provides more protection.
liberalefty
December 11th, 2011
5:31 pm
raleturn
how many people have u sent to meet their maker? i’m thinkuing a number between minus zero and zero.lol
raleturn
December 11th, 2011
5:36 pm
@liberalefty:
I would beg to differ, but I was professionally trained how to do it at Paris Island and was even compensated for it.
Brian
December 11th, 2011
5:43 pm
Rotondo sounds like a typical egg head liberal who does not want anyone to be able to protect themselves.
Mattie
December 11th, 2011
5:48 pm
Allowing guns on the GA Tech campus would do serious harm to their reputation. What parent wants to see their potential freshman attend a school where that is a possibility or a necessity? My son reached that realization after doing dual enrollment during high school. Hey Tech, thanks for the invite, but he’d rather not worry about his skin so he chose elsewhere.
Why is this such a problem at Tech? Why isn’t it happening in these numbers at GSU?
Conservative/Libertarian Constitutionalist
December 11th, 2011
6:01 pm
People against the right to carry guns are not intellectually honest. The fact is the only people hurt by guns bans are the people trying to defend themselves. The people wanting to do damage will have them. It is not hard to understand liberty.
Those anti-gun people are enabling the rapists and killers no matter how vehemently they deny or spin it.
I would also recommend that students cattle prods. They can deliver a jolt that will knock the fire out of a dirty rapist or killer or robber.
Conservative/Libertarian Constitutionalist
December 11th, 2011
6:04 pm
It is in no coincidence these liberal utopias-aka colleges-have so much violence.
Ronin
December 11th, 2011
6:20 pm
The person that “has the gun” doesn’t have to be involved in the incident.
Criminals know that presently ALL students coming from and going to the Tech campus are NOT armed, therefore easy prey.
If the ban is lifted, the predator takes a much larger risk attacking a student, if even a small percentage are armed.
What is happening at the school campus is a version of what would happen at metro airports with rental cars. Criminals would wait for someone to pull out of an airport rental office, travel a few miles down the road, bump them in the rear, when they get out, they were robbed or worse. The perpetrators knew that the people coming from the secure airport area would not have a gun.
Unless campus police combined with Atlanta police can guarantee their safety in certain areas 24/7, there should be a change in the law that allows people that have passed a background check to carry a concealed weapon to protect themselves. Most of the Atlanta police I see have their eyes glued to the smart phone and would not see a crime anyway.
They should be banned from using a personal phone during work hours.
The Bald Eagle
December 11th, 2011
7:07 pm
As much as I dislike the idea of an armed campus, allowing the rest of the city the right to arm itself, while these students are constantly preyed upon because thugs know they are defenseless is unfair. I think I could support guns on campus IF students and faculty wishing to carry had to register, submit to a background screening, and complete a firearm safety and marksmanship course (a real course, where you fail if you’re stupid or inept). Upon satisfactory completion, they would be issued a license to carry on campus which would require annual renewal and would be revoked if the student committed any violent crime, was found under the influence while carrying a firearm, or brandished a firearm on campus for any reason other than an emergency. This would at least mitigate the risks of untrained, inexperienced,trigger happy kids packing heat. Still not a perfect solution in my mind, but better than the current situation.
Brian
December 11th, 2011
7:08 pm
Please keep this forum open through tomorrow. I think the number of post will increase dramatically on Monday.
Alice Johnson
December 11th, 2011
7:11 pm
No student should be allowed to owe, possess or carry a firearm on campus. Parents will sleep better knowing that their child is protected by the campus police.
Jim Beam
December 11th, 2011
7:12 pm
I would just go buy a small gun and carry it anyways. The robberies tend to take place just off campus. The cops can’t prove you didn’t go get the gun once you stepped off tech property before you were attacked.
grandparent
December 11th, 2011
7:36 pm
what about providing pepper spray or Mace for Tech students?
Jim Beam
December 11th, 2011
7:44 pm
Most of these kids are robbed at gunpoint by aggressive ghetto losers. Further, allowing students to carry defensive weapons means they can look out for one another. If mace works so well stopping robberies and protecting others, why don’t all police officers ditch their guns and just carry mace?
Jim Beam
December 11th, 2011
7:45 pm
**stopping robberies = stopping armed ghetto losers
raleturn
December 11th, 2011
7:52 pm
@Alice Johnson: The campus police are sure doing a good job now aren’t they? I for one would sleep better knowing my child had viable options other than that of being a victim available to them.