Smyrna state rep: We need to throw HOPE a financial life line to keep kids going to college
Will we have fewer colleges students -- and grads -- as a result of cuts to HOPE? (AJC/file photo)
An AJC news story this morning notes a slowdown in enrollment at the state’s public campuses, reporting that while the University System of Georgia enrolled a record number of students this fall, more than 318,000, the figure is only a 2.1 percent increase from fall 2010, the system’s smallest increase since 2005.
The details in the story will be used to frame the upcoming HOPE debate in the Legislature. You can see one side of that argument below in the essay by Stacey Evans, a legislator from Smyrna.
Also a dozen campuses are teaching fewer students. The colleges are scattered across the state and they tend to enroll more low-income students who are more likely to struggle to pay for college. System leaders predicted and welcomed a slowdown, saying it would make the annual influx of new students easier to manage. The system has gained about 48,000 students since fall 2007.
Officials couldn’t link enrollment changes to just one cause, but with about one-third of the system’s students depending on HOPE, changes to the award can’t be ignored. Lawmakers revamped the lottery funded scholarship last spring, decreasing the aid students receive to keep the program viable for future recipients. As a result, thousands of students are bridging a financial gap and must pay hundreds of additional dollars in tuition, books and fees.
This story is the ideal lead-in to this essay by state Rep. Stacey Evans, D-Smyrna, on the need to put more money into HOPE. Evans gave a powerful speech last year on the House floor role on HOPE in transforming her own life. I expect more speeches this year as HOPE will again be up for debate.
Evans is a first generation college graduate and HOPE scholar. She represents Georgia House District 40 and is a partner in the law firm of Wood, Hernacki & Evans, LLC.
By Rep. Stacey Evans
Growing up in rural Ringgold in north Georgia, the daughter of carpet mill workers, college seemed a remote possibility for me financially. My parents always pushed me to work hard, but they were worried about paying the rent and making sure my brother and I had dinner on the table. For me, the HOPE scholarship and other financial aid was a life line.
After many late nights of studying, my 3.8 GPA earned me a HOPE scholarship and admission to the University of Georgia. But I didn’t stop working. I continued staying up late – this time to waitress to supplement my financial aid – and waking up early to study.
My story has a happy ending: I became my family’s first college graduate, went on to law school and now mentor students through the hurdles of the college admissions process. I have seen too many students who struggle in situations even I could have never imagined. These are students like Atlanta teen Marlanna, who missed the SAT several times because her mother did not have transportation to drive her to the test. Everything from transportation and filling out applications online when you don’t have a computer, to obtaining immunization records and ordering transcripts are harder when you don’t have the financial resources or someone in your family who has been through it before. And that’s before you even get a tuition bill.
Marlanna was recently accepted to Georgia Perimeter College. She too has a happy ending. But there are many students who don’t and those happy stories will become fewer. The hurdles that Marlanna faced are unimaginable to most.
This last legislative session, the “reform” measures placed yet another hurdle in front of low income students. In response to declining lottery revenues, the HOPE scholarship program has changed. It is now more difficult to obtain a scholarship and those who do, receive a smaller reward.
That means thousands of Georgia students will delay college or not go at all as the dollars available for the HOPE scholarship continue to deteriorate. Other current recipients of HOPE funds may have to drop out and possibly even be in default because of a decline in their education money. And the situation is only expected to get worse.
By fiscal year 2013, the state is expected to wipe through reserve funds and be expected to make even larger cuts to the HOPE program. This is why it is essential that Georgia consider all new revenue sources to supplement lottery funds. Like others, I need more time to consider whether video lottery terminals in a centralized location is the best option. But it is certainly an option that should be considered. It is discouraging to know that some have immediately dismissed the idea before it can even be studied.
The purpose of HOPE was to make college a possibility for more students. It was never intended to simply make it easier for those who have the resources to go. Our state is better off if we have more college-educated students and the only way to meet that goal is to make college more of a possibility for a larger portion of the population. The current HOPE scholarship program does not do that.
If you grow up in a family with a household income of less than $36,000 a year, you have a less than 5 percent chance of going to college. On the other hand, if you grow up in a family with a household income of more than $95,000 a year, you have more than a 75 percent chance of going to college. HOPE was intended to change these figures so that the family you were born into did not determine whether you were going to college or not. Georgia will not climb the economic charts as a state by continuing to simply send children of college graduates to college – that is already done. We need more first-generation college students.
HOPE helps us achieve that goal because it makes college more affordable to more students. But now that HOPE has been slashed and will continue to deteriorate over time, the program’s goals are lost.
We need to spread a message of hope to these students that that we want to help them get to college, not place yet another hurdle in their way. We need to show students that we will not close our minds to new ways to fund their education – even if those ideas are different than the way we are used to doing things in Georgia.
It is a new way of thinking that brought us the HOPE scholarship and that has helped so many first generation college graduates. And I hope that Georgia is open-minded enough to realize that the HOPE scholarship is now in need of its own life line.
–Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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119 comments Add your comment
carlosgvv
November 18th, 2011
8:27 am
All college costs keep rising and as more and more graduates find their degrees are worthless in the current job market, look for this trend to continue.
Sally Boyles
November 18th, 2011
8:28 am
Add to that, financial aid is expected to be the next financial bubble fiasco. In an economy where entry-level jobs straight out of college are harder to come by, these loans do not have the deferral periods that they once had. Many kids start paying while they are still in school, and if you have an unsubsidized loan, the interest is high. Not to mention, the debt is not discharged in event of bankruptcy. The chances of a stable middle-class lifestyle are slim these days.
SouthernGal
November 18th, 2011
8:30 am
Why just college…how bout funding school for those that need job training…electricians, plumbers, welders, heavy equipment operators, carpenters, concrete finishers, hair stylists etc.?
Follow the money
November 18th, 2011
8:36 am
But if you don’t acknowledge and recognize the “austerity adjustments” in K-12, college won’t matter anyway!!! Ms. Evans didn’t have to deal with this in her younger years, as my middle schooler has to deal with now.
tony
November 18th, 2011
8:37 am
how about this for a thought , lets get hope and the government out of paying for kids to go to college and watch how fast the cost of education goes down.
Frank
November 18th, 2011
8:38 am
We do not need to put more money into HOPE. Statistics show that about 1 out of every 3 recipients don’t requalify the second year. This tells me there are too many kids receiving money that were ill equipped for college in the first place.
HOPE needs to remain achievement based and requirements need to be put in place to help alelviate grade inflation. Also, there are a lot of folks out there that need to come to the realization that you or your children may just not be cut out for college and your time and money would be better suited preparing for another vocation.
Plumbers, electicians and other trades can be very rewarding too.
Dr NO / Mr Sunshine
November 18th, 2011
8:39 am
Hows that HOPE and CHANGE working out for ya?
5150 UOAD
November 18th, 2011
8:46 am
The problem with HOPE and more tax money going to schools is it doesn’t help the students with lowering costs. The Admin, Book producers, Fees, and Teachers all eat up the money. Hope has helped raise the cost of tuition not make it that much easier to afford school. HOPE is spending too much of the money on the people running HOPE. UGA should use some of the money the BOOSTERS give for football to lower the coast for ALL students to attend. UGA AA brings in like $85 Million/yr. Why not pay some teachers with some of that? Why not eliminate student activities fees with some of that?
Great Expectations?
November 18th, 2011
8:48 am
HOPE is such a touchy subject and unfortunately has become just another political target. I benefited extremely from HOPE while in school and would hate to see it go away, but I have a 2-yr old who I have been saving since his birth for him to go to college. As a parent, I put that as one of my top priorities for my kid. If HOPE is not around when he gets to school and he has to pay some or all of his tuition (like kids in almost every single other state in this country have to do) then he will get to make the choice as to whether it is worth it to go to college. Too many kids and parents are desensitized to the idea of having to pay for college in this state and it gets to me. If you have to pay an extra couple of hundred or even thousand of dollars a year for tuition and it is NOT WORTH IT, then is the HOPE scholarship just dishing out money to people who are just going to college because it is free? This is obviously not the case for all people, but I would 100% support a HOPE loan than would be forgiven IF you graduate, or you would begin repaying the instant you flunk out or decide to quit college. I think there are a lot of wasted dollars on students who go to college and don’t finish because there is NO RISK up front that could be saved and spent on more students who want to be there.
Yankee Prof
November 18th, 2011
8:54 am
My institution is one of those that went down in enrollment by several hundred students because we reinstated the SAT requirement. To be frank, based on the experience of the past five years when we were not allowed to restrict enrollment via the SAT, that group of students had a 3% chance of progressing to graduation, but they would utilize a significant percentage of resources and would contribute disproportionately to campus discipline problems.
I contend we are being better stewards of state rescources and of our mission by maintaining such modest standards. Give those kids time to grow up a bit, and we’ll be here for them when they’re ready to make a commitment.
Common Sense
November 18th, 2011
8:56 am
Yes we should continue to send kids to school on the taxpayer’s dime, whether or not there is a return on that investment.
And we need to make sure the universities continue to grow and raise their tuition rates because they are all underpaid at those levels as well.
Because when they graduate with tons of debt, and no job, they will more than likely join the roles of the dissatisfied democratic electorate.
And for democrats, that is a win-win.
clark kent
November 18th, 2011
8:59 am
When I went to college I had to pay for it. Me. My own. Not my parents, not the government, not someone else. Me.
To automatically assume that 1) people must go to college and 2) HOPE is the only way to do it are failed premises based on faulty logic.
james in athens
November 18th, 2011
9:05 am
100% agree with Great Expectations! Too many kids get Hope and after a year
flunk out because they were not ready for college and thus we have wasted
the $$$. I wouldn’t put another dime in this program. If it goes away so be it.
College is not for everyone and here’s an idea why not save up the $$ ahead
of time to pay for your college instead? I am also glad they changed the Hope
rule that no one receives Hope if they are 7 years out of HS. If your 40 or so you
need to pay for your own expenses if you want to go back to school… not including
our Military members………
Inman Park Boy
November 18th, 2011
9:11 am
As much as I love the HOPE program (full disiclosure: I have a son at GSU on HOPE) I also know that the presence of HOPE has led directly to higher tuition costs at Georgia Colleges. It works pretty much like health insurance, where doctors know that the cost is being paid by someone other than the patient, so why not raise fees? Inasmuch as the University System of Georgia is quasi-governmental in nature, it’s annual raises in tuition should be monitored by the General Assembly, and annual percentage increases should be in line with the raises in cost of living, and no more.
5150 UOAD
November 18th, 2011
9:18 am
Being out of school for 7 years? People in the work force know what real life is and will work harder than a just out of school student. Non-Traditional Students are better students and bring REAL Experience to the classroom. being out of school for 7 years means the person might know for SURE what degree of study they want to pursue after time in the work force or just adding to their chances to get a better job.
Really want to make sure HOPE works? Make the people pay for 1/2 the semester first and if they pass the money is paid back to them.
a reader
November 18th, 2011
9:20 am
I’d be fine with no HOPE if I thought for a minute that the GA universities would pick up the slack as they do in other states (look at what Auburn, Alabama, Ole Miss, Miss State, USC and Clemson offer top students for example). But I doubt it’s going to happen…. so that said:
1. Grandfather existing HOPE receipients – these kids didn’t lose HOPE after 1 semester but don’t change the rules on them (again).
2. Don’t discriminate against hard work: let an AP A be a 4.5, which does reward course rigor and work.
3. Institute a “limbo” policy – if you’re at risk for losing HOPE (but not quite there), let it reimburse the semester not advance pay. Bet that makes kids buckle down and keep HOPE, and the ones that don’t, well nothing out of pocket for the state and they’re out of the system a term earlier.
4. Look at other sources of funding (private foundations, athletic associations at schools where they’re making money, etc.) to supplement HOPE.
It’s gonna be hard for my kid to decide to stay in state right now, given the early offers from competing out of state schools for 4 years of tuition that depend only on the student’s grades and not on the whim of a state legislature. When you look at non tuition expenses, they’re pretty much the same for in state vs. out of state, so net price is less for out of state.
And once the bright ones are gone they’re not real likely to come back.
William Casey
November 18th, 2011
9:22 am
HOPE and CHANGE is working just fine for me. Thanks for asking.
The HOPE scholarship has been one of the very best things the state of Georgia has ever done. My eternal thanks to Zell Miller. However, I believe that it is a good thing that each student contribute SOMETHING toward the cost of his/her education. It is simply human nature not to appreciate and fully take advantage of educational opportunities unless some of one’s money is going into it.
Follow the money
November 18th, 2011
9:25 am
To Inman Park Boy, Regents has been cut by the General Assembly, as has other state agencies, but decided it could rape the HOPE program to maintain its bloated, increasing administrative costs. And the recipients who earned the scholarship are being punished.
Road Scholar
November 18th, 2011
9:32 am
Could the downturn in enrollments be the result of not paying for remedial learning? The real students shuld address this before getting to college.
oldtimer
November 18th, 2011
9:35 am
Universities have done nothing to really contain costs. Salaries and retirement plans for full time are bloated and insurance plans are way better than other state employees.
Anonmom
November 18th, 2011
9:38 am
Anyone with strong opinions to share should keep in mind that state legislators rarely really hear from the “field” and should really feel free to write to legislators and let them know what they think about things… including the HOPE issue and even, maybe, assessing the high schools (or districts) from which the kids are graduating in need of remediation for college even though they think they are “college ready”. Express your opinions here so Maureen keeps her job and the blog stays interesting but also express yourself to the legislators, where something might actually be done about it.
Anonmom
November 18th, 2011
9:42 am
I thought for a minute that the GA universities would pick up the slack as they do in other states (look at what Auburn, Alabama, Ole Miss, Miss State, USC and Clemson offer top students for example). — please explain….
Car Salesman
November 18th, 2011
9:43 am
The world needs ditchdiggers too.
justjanny
November 18th, 2011
9:48 am
@common sense: HOPE is funded through lottery dollars, not taxpayer money. Just keep on whining…wah! wah! wah!
5150 UOAD
November 18th, 2011
9:54 am
justjanny………….HOPE doesn’t pay to run the school. Tax dollars do. HOPE pays only tuition.
Shar
November 18th, 2011
10:12 am
Rep Evans is disingenuous at best.
What happened to HOPE is what happens to every “trust fund” that exists parallel to tax dollars. Our representatives, including Evans, cut funding to the University System to fund other projects (like the road to Sonny Perdue’s house and the excerable “Go Fish”) in the full expectation that they could get away with it politically because the System would raise tuition and HOPE would dull the pain. In fact, HOPE funds have been used and used and used to subsidize projects that would not have been economically justified if the Legislature had had to keep to their tax revenues, but by cutting and cutting and cutting the higher ed budget they have been, in effect, on a HOPE-underwritten spending spree. On a federal level, look at Social Security, which should be well-funded but which is teetering because the legislators have drained it for “other priorities.”
Another major political rape of the HOPE has been the desire for politicians to ensure that the benefits flow to their constituents rather than the amorphous future of the state. They have consistently lowered the requirements and fought any attempt to force recipients to either show college-readiness on some non-manipulatable measure such as the SAT or to put recipients’ money at risk by changing the format to a model that requires upfront payments that can be reimbursed upon successful completion. Rep. Evans, and all of her colleagues, finds it much easier to brag about how many students in her district qualified for the HOPE and conveniently disregard the ugly truth that very few of them retain it due to the poor college preparation they have received K-12.
If the Legislature had been forced to cap tuition and fee (you cannot imagine how many fees the University System has manufactured in the last ten years, all for the purpose of increasing revenues that do not take money from the HOPE fund) increases in the University System to, say, the rate of inflation plus 5%, they would not have been able to suck dry the HOPE trust fund. If they had agreed to an SAT floor or a higher GPA for those students who could demonstrate college readiness but who had trouble with standardized tests, as well as requiring recipients to put money (either cash or a loan) up front with reimbursement contingent upon successful academic work, the HOPE system would be robust today. They didn’t, because they wanted to use HOPE for their own purposes.
Now Rep. Evans wants to put tax dollars into a system she has helped to destroy, and she wants to put income qualifiers in place to make it yet another entitlement program that she can take political credit for. How stupid does she think we are?
GM of IST @ CCDOE in GMU
November 18th, 2011
10:32 am
Since HOPE is funded through state-sposored gambling, why doesn’t the state simply get into the prostitution business as well? Think of all the money we are losing by not having hookers and johns pay for your kid’s education!
Anthony
November 18th, 2011
10:38 am
You can go to the Ga Lottery website and in the FAQ section is a link that takes you to a PDF file that explains all of the outlay for the year.
Its pretty disturbing to see how much is outlayed to colleges for capital projects, technology upgrades, pre-k programs, and administrative fees.
HOPE’s board is made up of local business people chosen by the governor. The people add nothing to a lottery program. Its simply a gift from the governor to collect a large check every year.
This board hands out money to the colleges in the Georgia University System based on connections and influence.
Shar is absolutely correct about the program’s requirements being lowered by politicians looking to gain favor from their communities.
From a simple state lottery program all the way to the White House. This country is corrupt to the core.
Dr NO / Mr Sunshine
November 18th, 2011
10:46 am
Lets throw HOPE to the wolves.
a reader
November 18th, 2011
10:50 am
School funded programs (note some are automatic, some competitive, but having HOPE in GA has let the schools have the attitude of “let the state do it”, and we’re then at the mercy of the state in terms of maintaining promises to our children):
Alabama (need to click through for resident / non resident pages): http://scholarships.ua.edu/
Auburn (click for freshman resident / non resident): http://www.auburn.edu/scholarship/
Clemson (academic recruiting section): http://www.clemson.edu/financial-aid/types/scholarships/cu-schol.html
USC: http://www.sc.edu/financialaid/academic.html
Miss State http://admissions.msstate.edu/scholarships/academic/index.php
Ole Miss (page down for academic excellence) :http://www.olemiss.edu/finaid/scholarshiptypes.html
MannyT
November 18th, 2011
10:57 am
Colleges need to work better with employers to enhance the value they provide. If more graduates are seen as employable, they will have better success. Recent college graduates are usually toward the lower end of the pay scale. They are a good investment if they have the right skills.
High schools need to work better with colleges (and the skilled trades) to improve the capabilities of HS graduates. If more HS graduates are seen as ready for college or the trades, they will have better success. Middle schools should work with high schools in a similar way. The same is true for elementary to middle school relationship.
Better HS students should decrease the need for college remediation.
On the HOPE end, if it is truly a reward for doing the right things in HS, base the award on how you do relative to your HS. Drop the fixed GPA requirements (3.8 or B avg) and provide HOPE based on the percentage the state can afford for that graduating class. If you can afford the top 10%, that’s who gets HOPE. If it’s top 20%, that’s who gets HOPE. If the best kids in Ringgold, Acworth, Valdosta, or Enigma are better or worse than your neighborhood HS, they are still the top students in those communities. If they can get into a state college, give them HOPE. They are more likely to return the favor to their communities (and make them better) than it is for someone else to move there and encourage education & growth.
The students get the education & everyone gets their political piece of the pie.
catlady
November 18th, 2011
11:18 am
Justjanny: Hope/student tuition pays a little more than 1/3 the cost of the classes. The rest is subsidized by the taxpayers. And this does not include housing, room and board, etc, which the student must pay. So for every “nonperformer” at UGA, YOU are paying about 12,000 per year.
Tip of the Iceberg
November 18th, 2011
11:19 am
If most students quickly lose the HOPE and later drop out, maybe it’s time to close some of the University “Drop Out Factories” in GA. They screen applicants with SAT and GPA and still have dismal grad rates.
What are the grad rates of GA’s universities?
If university professors had to post grades and attendance online for parent viewing a few times each semester, grad rates would go up 10%.
nelson
November 18th, 2011
11:22 am
Under the current system the HOPE grants continues to finance partying for a full year after they receive a 0.0 GPA. in their first semester.
2ndly, why should state financing go towards funding private colleges?
It is my opinion that the only worthy education comes from the student paying for it themselves and “Honest Abe” would agree.
catlady
November 18th, 2011
11:25 am
Shar: I agree with you mostly except about the “poor college preparation.” Largely, I agree students are poorly prepared for college. For those for whom that is true, it doesn’t point back to the schools as much as it does the student and parent.
I live in a poor community (75% free lunch) yet the kids in the schools have so many opportunities to get the preparation they need for success in college. They just fail to take advantage of the chances they have, and then act surprised when they “aren’t ready.”
DawgDad
November 18th, 2011
11:30 am
Thanks to HOPE the lottery players put one of my children through college, saving me a bundle. Now, Georgia taxpayers are fully funding a post-graduate degree for another member of our family (and it’s not an engineering degree, get the gist?). We love Georgia, but I have deep concerns about where all this nonsense leads us as a society.
Once Again
November 18th, 2011
11:39 am
Already WAY too many kids going to college who shouldn’t. If this is a scholarship program than a more appropriate way to stretch the funding is to raise the GPA requirement or make kids compete directly for the money. If the program is not self-sustainable, then end it. Frankly the HOPE money is part of the reason why college costs have skyrocketted, not the other way around as the economically ignorant believe. If colleges had to compete for kids’ money instead of having this automatic guarantee they would lower the costs or lose business.
HOPE was always a joke and just a way to make gambling paletable for the moral vice squad that infests this state.
Prof
November 18th, 2011
11:46 am
I agree with Frank, Yankee Prof, Shar, and catlady here. I’d only add that what happened to HOPE seems inevitable, given that broadening its original restrictions along with K-12 grade inflation made it so easy to get this supposed “merit fellowship.” The K-12 cheating scandal from 2001-2010, evidently not just restricted to APS, I think doomed HOPE for our state legislators since it seemed to accompany the increasing need for college/University remedial courses by our fair “HOPE scholars.”
All I know is that for the last 4-5 years a lot of students claiming to need a B in my classes to “keep their HOPE scholarship” really were C-caliber students.
DawgDad
November 18th, 2011
11:48 am
Once Again: Good point. If and when HOPE goes away the lottery had better go away with it. When provided the opportunity, I have never, ever supported government involvement in gambling for any purpose, and I never will. I have no objection to gambling per se, as long as it is a free personal choice, but government has NO business being in the gaming business.
yuzeyurbrane
November 18th, 2011
12:06 pm
Amen. Also, the state continues to violate the Lottery Statute by not transferring the required % of revenues to HOPE (20% instead of 30%). This has gone on many years thru both Dem and Rep admin. If the law were followed, HOPE would be in much better fiscal shape. Also, you can’t gut BILLIONS of dollars from state educ. budgets over span of just a few years w/o negative impacts, like dramatic increase of illegal “fees” by universities in struggle to maintain academic standards. Average “fee” and tuition increase has been close to $2,000 per yr. But what do you expect when you have governor who has stated he considers HOPE to be an entitlement program rather than an investment in the state’s kids and future?
gojackets
November 18th, 2011
12:09 pm
Inman Park Boy,
You couldn’t be further from the truth. The top universities in Georgia and Florida (another state with a HOPE-like system) have the lowest in-state tuition among other top universities in the nation. HOPE actually keeps tuition DOWN because it basically involves the state just paying itself money.
As an aside, I am not a Georgia resident, but I find it stupid that a Tech physics major needs to keep the same GPA as a creative writing student at U[sic]GA to keep HOPE. The intro science/math classes at Tech are actually curved to be BELOW 3.0. BY DESIGN. Plug in any course into here to see what I mean: http://www.sga.gatech.edu/critique/
jd
November 18th, 2011
12:11 pm
HOPE grants pay for plumbers to go to school — and until this year — you didn’t need a B or a C avg an d hundreds of millions were wasted.
If grade inflation were not so rampant in K12 — a lot of money could be saved from those who don’t have B avgs…
Atlanta mom
November 18th, 2011
12:22 pm
“If university professors had to post grades and attendance online for parent viewing a few times each semester, grad rates would go up 10%.”
Oh my. And are you going to your child’s work interview when they graduate from college too?
gojackets
November 18th, 2011
12:23 pm
Here’s a link from 2009 showing tuition and fees at top universities. UF, U[sic]GA, Tech are 1st, 3rd and 5th of 33 for in-state, while they’re all middle-of-the-road for out of state. HOPE kept tuition down for in-state residents.
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/793989-college-comparison-ixx-tuition-fees.html
BOB FROM ACCOUNT TEMPS
November 18th, 2011
12:27 pm
SORRY, BUT REP. EVANS IS WRONG!! the purpose of HOPE is to reward those that made the grade to be able to continue on with college for 4 years and to keep the brain talent in georgia.
HS Public Teacher
November 18th, 2011
12:57 pm
Too many are attending college when they are not ready for college and/or they really don’t want to be there. Why do we need to push them to go? Why do they need to go in to debt?
There is simply nothing wrong with learning a trade or skill for a career. Why should our government tell us otherwise?
Dekalb taxpayer
November 18th, 2011
12:57 pm
Rep. Evans is talking about highly motivated students who come from poor families. There are tons of scholarship dollars available for students who can demonstrate financial need. It is the middle-students whose parents make too much to qualify for need-based aid but who don’t make enough to sock any away for college who most need HOPE. There are a lot of parents and students in this category.
dform
November 18th, 2011
1:04 pm
Rep. Evans, You are wrong in your way of thinking. HOPE should be paid after students have shown that they have earned the GPA each semester and not before. I went to college by paying for it myself. I paid for both the tuition, housing, and books. I worked my tail off in my classes and also outside of school to have money to spend and pay my bills. My parents, the state, the government gave me nothing, but subsidizing the student loans that I was given. I believe that our children will take advantage of their education opportunities when they have worked for them. This is why, I will not pay for all of my son’s education. I believe that he must put forth some effort in working and paying for his college degree.
Also, many of the state universities are not very good. They are not institutions that I would personally send my child to and expect them to come out of college with a degree that will lead to a job. Our students in elementary and high school are not challenged and held accountable for their learning, and it continues with kids being accepted into diploma factories needing remedial help to make it in mediocre universities. Raising the education offered in high school and elementary schools would help our children be better prepared for the world.
Also, college isn’t for everyone. I have many friends from high school who do very well for themselves having learned a trade.
If HOPE can’t be funded by the lottery, than it doesn’t need to be in existence. Our tax dollars should not be putting people through college. Our children need to learn that they need to work for what they want and that nothing is free.
Jeff
November 18th, 2011
1:09 pm
I’m all for that. Right AFTER you give me a detailed accounting of where all of the lottery money went and where all of the regular eductional budget money went since the beginning of the lottery.
Deal? Didn’t think so.
dc
November 18th, 2011
1:10 pm
Seems like the issue is more with rising tuition (which of course the Hope enables) than more people getting it. The “cap” on what it covers should help put pressure on the colleges not just to keep jacking up tuition.
Does it amaze anyone else that we’ve heard little to nothing about large layoffs in the non-teaching staff of colleges? Do they exist in some surreal world not affected by the economy?
Shar
November 18th, 2011
1:11 pm
@catlady, I agree that far too many parents abdicate responsibility for their child’s education once they can toddle through the school doors, and far too many children lack the discipline, structure and motivation to succeed without parental oversight. Unfortunately, far too many schools prefer to paper this over rather than address the problems within their purview to solve. We agree that the end result is poor college preparation.
@gojackets, I agree. The collorary for high school is that an A in a remedial course does not equal an A (or for that matter a B) in an AP or Honors course but the idiots in our Legislature – who could not pass either – are not capable of recognizing that, nor would they address it if they could. They would rather the HOPE program fail than have to explain to constituent parents of students in easy classes why their child’s performance is not comparable to that of a B student taking Chemical Engineering at Tech.
@Once Again, it is unrealistic to raise the GPA again. It will only lead to more grade inflation. HOPE should be tied to a nationally-normed measure like the SAT, with some case-by-case alternative for kids who have verifiable issues with standardized tests. Again, legislators won’t do it because too many kids would fail to qualify, leading voting parents to take issue with the quality of educational outcomes in their home districts and perhaps even the legislator’s vote in favor of cutting education funding.
Our legislators are liars, cheats and cowards, as exemplified by Rep. Evans’ letter above.Rather than accept responsibility for siphoning away the HOPE funds, their irresponsible budgetary choices, their abject failure to responsibly implement the program to the long-term benefit of the state or even to effectively oversee the Lottery Commission’s activities (and yes, as of right now they should be required to abide by the law and return the stipulated percentage to the scholarship funds rather than to themselves and various other extralegal “priorities”), legislators like Evans duck and choose instead to blame students coming from families with the means to pay tuition for earning the right to qualify for a scholarship. It’s a shiftless, self-serving whine that no one with any sense believes, and it’s typical of the entire Legislature’s response to having stolen the program blind.
Lee
November 18th, 2011
1:37 pm
Make HOPE a Reimbursement program and watch many of the problems go away.
I noticed Rep. Evans brought up the “HOPE was for poor people” argument once again. Hey, maybe the reason poor people don’t go to college is that they have lower IQ’s and do not have the aptitude for college work.
Unfortunately, our public schools are still graduating illiterates who have zero chance of going to college or technical schools and since most of the blue collar jobs have been shipped overseas, have little chance of being employed in a decent paying job.
Fix that Evans before monkeying with HOPE.
Beverly Fraud
November 18th, 2011
1:48 pm
Why not raise funds by having the Georgia General Assembly sponsored by a corporate entity?
Yahoo would seem to be a natural fit, as apparently you can’t swing a stick under the Gold Dome without hitting one.
resno2
November 18th, 2011
1:54 pm
Throw HOPE financial lifeline, and I guarantee that tuition costs will go up even more. The Board of Regents are nothing more than politicians who are very capable at spending other peoples money. Fix the abuse and loopholes in HOPE first, then go from there.
Tip of the Iceberg
November 18th, 2011
2:24 pm
@ ATL Mom:
“If university professors had to post grades and attendance online for parent viewing a few times each semester, grad rates would go up 10%.”
Oh my. And are you going to your child’s work interview when they graduate from college too?
You really don’t think 18 year olds are grown do you?
I am assuming college professors actually post grades somewhere . . . why not online so the adults footing the bill can see them more than twice a year.
Attendance is a big factor in college failure. Why not monitor attendance?
Actually I did drive both of my kids to their first job interviews.
They both got good jobs and got out of my wallet. O Happy Day!
What is sad is that if these ideas increase college grad rates by 10%, we will have more college grads walking around without jobs. Parents, get ready to do whatever it takes.
The jobs outlook is only getting worse.
NONPC
November 18th, 2011
2:29 pm
Put more money into HOPE from state coffers? Not only NO, but H*LL NO. How about reign in tuition and fee increases? HOPE cannot possibly hope to keep up with College costs when they are increasing at 2x, 3x, 5x the rate of inflation. Chasing college costs with taxpayer dollars… folks who ALREADY pay for every dollar of K-12 education… is asking too much.
MiltonMan
November 18th, 2011
2:34 pm
How about HOPE for only those who degree of choice will make them “somewhat” employable vs. worthless degrees.
Problem solved.
Janet
November 18th, 2011
2:55 pm
I think it’s funny how so many think it’s almost a God given right to go to college for FREE. Just because someone doesn’t get HOPE doesn’t mean they can’t go to college. Whatever happened to the value of working? When I was in college, my parents couldn’t afford to help, so I got what few grants/scholarships I could and took out loans for the rest. I was 20 years old and worked a FULL TIME job to pay for living expenses. Some would say that I didn’t get the “full college experience” because on Spring break, I was not trashed off my a** in Mexico, I was working double shifts. Most of winter break… the same. Summers…the same. Was it hard… YES. Did I sometimes feel jealousy toward those who had it easier… HELL YES! But I knew that I wasn’t going to be a waitress at the Olive Garden forever, so I pushed forward. I have no regrets as I was and still am the first in my entire extended family to attend and graduate from college and have a successful career in my chosen field. I think these kids (really 18 year old adults acting like children) need to grow up, stop whining, and go get job. The laziness and sense of entitlement astounds me.
Lee
November 18th, 2011
3:02 pm
When my kids were in college, I got the URLs and passwords from them where I could go online and view their grades, account info, make payments, etc.
If your kids don’t want to provide you with that info, I suggest shutting down the money fountain.
catlady
November 18th, 2011
3:09 pm
Lee, I am also astounded at the parents who say their kids are adults and give them hundreds and thousands of dollars but don’t expect reciprocal respect by seeing the student’s grades. I would cut them off quicker than spit can fly! Have a friend that is getting no respect from his daughter, age 25. Pays her car, gas, food, etc, and has no way of knowing if she is actually enrolled! She will show him nothing. She has been “in school” for 6 years now and has yet to be in the nursing program. He is aware that she has “stopped out” 3 times in the past, not telling him before she did, nor has he ever seen any kind of verification on anything. I think he is a fool!
Atlanta mom
November 18th, 2011
3:54 pm
“You really don’t think 18 year olds are grown do you?”
Yes, I do. Because that’s what I’ve been preparing them for the previous 18 years. Will they make bad choices? Maybe. Will I take responsibility and try to fix it? No.
Do you think college professors take attendance? Do you really want to make that part of their jobs? If your child doesn’t go to class what are you going to do to fix it?
My children know that if they lose their scholarships, they will have to find the funds to make it up. Not coming out of my pocket. That seems be enough incentive for my kids, because they know I’m not fooling around.
Beverly Fraud
November 18th, 2011
4:18 pm
I REALLY feel sad for those students who got a college degree in Eraser Maintainance, hoping they’d get a high paying job with APS.
Scott
November 18th, 2011
5:41 pm
I think Hope is awesome, but when you get something for nothing, we run into the entitlement mentality… as evidenced by Rep. Evans. Paying 10-20% of the cost of your education is not a hardship. It is a 80-90% discount. (Forgive me if my numbers are slightly off.)
The payouts have to equal the income for a sustainable program. It shouldn’t take a college math education to understand that.
Ron
November 18th, 2011
5:48 pm
My HOPE scholarship was cancelled right before my program started. Two years later, I have a 4.0 GPA. Will I be able to apply retroactively?
Ron
November 18th, 2011
5:50 pm
Little wonder HOPE Scholarship failed to keep up with rising university fees to pay for all those fancy student centers, gyms, technology, and athletics. Clearly, U’s have priced themselves out of the market.
Michael
November 18th, 2011
6:53 pm
Well the Dekalb Schools jobs website indicates the students can just get that HS Diploma and start out making $38k as a painter or $53k as a secretary. Who needs HOPE?
oldtimer
November 18th, 2011
7:36 pm
I liked this letter…She is a good role model. I do think more money ought to be put into funds for poor people who prove they derve help. When I was in college, I had quite a bit of help..grants, work study…things I am not sure are availabe any longer.
My favorite day of teaching…as a principal was kind oftalking sternly about not giving poor young boys breaks…As he was speaking a youhng man came up and interrupted us. He told my boss that if I had not “stayed on him” he would not be the first male in his family to finish High School. I actually taught him two years and spent many lunch times catching up. I have not seen him since, but he did say he had been accepted at Clayton State….The principal did some backstrokes…and after that kind of left me alone. It also helped that the next two years my reading class had the most improvement in schools.
So for every teacher…help kids..stay on them…. find resources they need…
RGB
November 18th, 2011
7:50 pm
We should–no, we MUST increase HOPE funding every year even if it means we tax everyone at 100% of their income–and then we have to borrow MORE elsewhere.
Why? Because it’s guaranteed in the Constitution, Article 1, Section 1: “Every chile is guaranteed a college education regardless of whether the chile wants to attend college or whether taxpayers possess the financial wherewithal to send said chile to college.”
Do it for the children.
P.S. I need–no, deserve a new car. Please cough up the funds to effect said purchase forthwith.
catlady
November 18th, 2011
8:03 pm
Shar: “far too many schools prefer to paper this over rather than address the problems within their purview to solve.”
I think many folks at the schools would prefer to address the problems, such as grade inflation, unearned As, no zeroes, unlimited retakes, second chances, late work, etc. However, the schools seem to be populated with mostly “not my kid” on this. That is, it is fine to have the rule, but not for my kid-he deserves a second chance, third chance, the teacher has it in for him, ad nausem.
Without parent support/accountability, schools cannot hold kids responsible. We can try to motivate, and try to inspire, and sometimes (occasionally) that works, and a kid with little to nothing going for him with his family support sees a better world and aspires to it. Everyone thinks their child is an exception to any school rule, and the powers that be all the way up to the top of the federal food chain seem to agree, usually.
One trouble the schools have is that EVERY problem is the school’s to solve, but the schools are given NO POWER to solve them.
I think you and I are largely in agreement, but we differ in how much power you ascribe to the schools. From where I sit, the schools/teachers are the least powerful rung of the ladder. Is what I do important? Yes. But I can’t move mountains. I’m happy if I can get them to vibrate a bit from time to time.
CA
November 18th, 2011
8:05 pm
Someone, please provide proof of grade inflation. Please also explain what “Being ready for college” means. Does it mean that a child has realized a “certain” GPA. Is the GPA the only thing that dictates success?
Beverly Fraud
November 18th, 2011
8:20 pm
Quote:
“Someone, please provide proof of grade inflation”
The University System of Georgia.
40 yr educator
November 18th, 2011
8:32 pm
The HOPE Grant is the other side of the coin…..students in the Technical College System are draining the aid with multiple majors!!!
William Casey
November 18th, 2011
8:33 pm
@CA: when I retired from the Fulton County School system in 2006, it was Board policy to assign no final grade lower than 50%. A potted plant, if properly registered, would have received a final grade of 50%. I’d call that “grade inflation.” Also, see Catlady’s examples in her 8:03 post.
DLink
November 18th, 2011
8:40 pm
The HOPE scholarship is fine as a start. Businesses and schools really need to interact with what is needed today, though. They NEED to be hand in hand, if anybody is to work. Sure. you get the occasional left turn that leads somewhere else, we all expect that. HOPE for it, in fact.
The sudden turn when people catch fire, I’m seeing around 33yo now. The interest and the drive kick in. Czechoslovakia has been doing trade schools for a very long time. There are no advanced schools, just trade schools and everybody works. I think an American ideal is to have everyone work for you making money. Carryover from the slavers days of glory. Glory being those who work for next to nothing. We can go to CHINA and continue this line of reasoning.
William Casey
November 18th, 2011
8:45 pm
@MILTON MAN: Although “employability” is an important part of higher education, it is only part of the story. America decided long ago that an educated citizenry was absolutely essential in our form of government. Not all majors are created equal, but, life isn’t ONLY about the Benjamins. I enjoy being around educated people much more than uneducated ones. It enriches life. HOPE isn’t and shouldn’t be simply a “job training” program.
Shannon
November 18th, 2011
8:52 pm
1) The educational system *has* apparently failed some people here. For instance, someone thinks that saying the name of the state’s educational system is itself proof of grade inflation. Now, grade inflation is real, but saying “University System of Georgia” is about as much proof as saying “bananas foster cheesecake.”
2. The universities have been *axing* their budgets for years. You folks don’t realize what’s been going on. They have only raised tuition and fees because these *public* colleges are seeing less and less funding from the state. HOPE helps pay that tuition, but tuition and fees are *not* the cost of the education. The cost of the education is DECREASING. Believe me, as a graduate student, I’ve seen the budget cuts in every single department at my university.
Here’s how it works. (Numbers here are used for ease to demonstrate the concept; they are not accurate). Tuition is $1,000. Fees are $100. The state subsidizes education with $3,000 per student, so every semester, the school has $4,100 to work with. With me so far?
The legislature (God bless those Republicans with more free time and less power, please) decides to cut the funding to the university from $3,000 to $1,000. The school scrambles, cuts costs, and raises tuition by $1,000 and fees by $400. Now the student is paying $2,000 tuition plus $500 in fees, and the state is adding an extra $1,000. The school has $3,500 for that student instead of $4,100.
See the problem? Sure, to the students it looks like costs are going up… but here’s the thing.
These Republicans are against public education. Ask them. They’ll admit it.
So they’re trying to privatize the colleges just as they want to privatize K-12 education.
They don’t want to fund it, so they’re increasingly shifting the burden to the students. That’s great if you think the state has no vested interested in educated citizenry…
…and frankly, that’s *exactly* what Republicans want, considering that higher education tracks with increasingly liberal ideas. The most educated people are always the most liberal. You can argue about why that is (i.e., Boortz would suggest that they can’t hack it in the real world, so they stay in the ivory tower; I would argue that a love of learning innately leads one to progressive ideals), but it’s demonstrably true whatever the reason you give.
em
November 18th, 2011
8:53 pm
Like many others on this blog, I too put myself through college with loans and by working. Furthermore, adjusted for inflation, my costs were close to what the costs are today; therefore, I haven’t much sympathy for those who may face the economic challenges of higher education. In looking at the dismal graduation rates as reported by the Governor’s Report Card, maybe many high school graduates have no business going to college. At the very least, make HOPE a reimbursement program.
Shannon
November 18th, 2011
8:55 pm
And Maureen, it would be great if you did a column showing the actual numbers. People think that college budgets are going up, up, up… and they’re really being cut to the *bone*. Show the funding trend from the state since we went from a Democratic legislature majority and governor to a Republican majority and governor.
Briniqua
November 18th, 2011
9:20 pm
In that whole looong statement Ms. Evans makes one passing reference to an actual remedy, video lottery terminals. The rest is her life story and some feelgood pap. I heard her speak at an event recently – she is an idiot.
catlady
November 19th, 2011
8:07 am
As for grade inflation proof, some of the clues might be the discrepency between high school GPA and SAT scores. If you have a 3.5 and an 800 on the old SAT, there is a problem, Houston.
Second, look at the number of dropped courses. They have exploded under HOPE. Kids try to salvage that college GPA.
Third, look at the percentage of HOPE “scholars” that lose HOPE. (This isn’t as good a measure since now colleges are inflating grades, as well.)
Rick in Grayson
November 19th, 2011
9:39 am
Shannon,
…They don’t want to fund it, so they’re increasingly shifting the burden to the students. That’s great if you think the state has no vested interested in educated citizenry…
…and frankly, that’s *exactly* what Republicans want, considering that higher education tracks with increasingly liberal ideas. The most educated people are always the most liberal.
===========
The state should have NO vested interest in “educated” citizenry. The state has a vested interested in employable citizens that can pay taxes.
The most educated people are NOT always the most liberal.
Those with degrees such as “creative writing” (English literature, Art History, Sociology, etc.) are most certainly educated but their education is concentrated in fields that do not “pay back” the state if dollars.
I work in a STEM environment and these very educated people are certainly not FISCALLY liberal (although they may be socially liberal). Whether or not they are Republicans doesn’t really matter, but they have worked very hard for their degrees/education and were generally not the partying types in college. They want their money spent wisely!
Yes, the liberals that want to spend other people’s money on “education” are also known as socialists and we all know that many of these non-STEM professors are indeed socialists feeding college students their liberal BS.
Why should blue collar citizens (house painters, bulldozer operators) subsidize college educations?
Getting back to “professions”, why is it that we are not granting H1-B visas to foreign workers educated in History, Sociology, English Literature, Women’s Studies? The answer is that our society does not have a great DEMAND for citizenry with those kinds of educations. So again, why should HOPE be subsidizing citizenry persuing those degrees?
Should the general US citizen be subsidizing those who have a great “passion” for the works of Edgar Allen Poe?
HOPE should be subsidizing those students most likely to have a high return on their educational investment!
William Casey
November 19th, 2011
10:42 am
@Rick in Grayson: In America, we vote for our leaders. And, you say that “the state should have no vested interest in an educated citizenry?” Ignorant voters are best? Hmmmm…. Simply train people at their little jobs and leave it at that? Sounds like “1984″ to me.
bootney farnsworth
November 19th, 2011
11:29 am
HOPE is the classic example of good intentions paving a road to hell.
Zell was very farsighted when he created HOPE. he saw the high tech future of our economy and that Georgia was not in a good position to participate. it was a smart move and we all benefited from it – at first
where it went from visionary to ponzi scheme is when the education machine – which exists to feed itself, not educate children saw a golden opportunity to fatten itself like never before.
between grade inflation at the HS level and rampant unnecessary spending at the USG level, HOPE is essentially the drug a junkie
uses to get its monitary fix.
bootney farnsworth
November 19th, 2011
11:33 am
@ Rick
I’m curious- exactly how does one create a society with employable citizens who pay taxes without educating them?
if you’re arguing the state should not be in the business of education,
you have a debatable point. if you’re arguing the state has no vested interest in supporting and fostering an educated citizenry
sorry, but that’s just crazy
bootney farnsworth
November 19th, 2011
11:37 am
@ catlady
where I work I see a lot of kids who lose HOPE due to a number of factors, but a very common one being these kids were flat unprepaired for the rigors of college.
they actually thought their As & Bs in HS were an accurate indicator of how their educational progression was occuring.
reality hits them very, very hard
Rick in Grayson
November 19th, 2011
11:49 am
William Casey:
Seems like you endorse the idea of government picking winners and losers. We haven’t been very good at that lately. Workers with valuable job skills that can pay their taxes are not ignorant!
How many people would rate students with a Women’s Studies degree more valuable than something that pays the bills. I would hope our voters are more “educated” than that! Why don’t we have a Men’s Studies degree? Don’t worry, some liberal will find that a good idea some day. Is this how nations resources are to be spent?
Why are we so low on the totem pole when compared to other nations?
We spend a big chunk of money on subsidizing education here in the US. Why aren’t we subsidizing educations for bulldozer operators. Let’s not be so arrogant about who qualifies for the public dole. We have thrown money at education for decades. Please point to the evidence that we are a “better” country for having done so! Like I said in my previous comment, we don’t exactly have other nations begging for our citizens with degrees in Women’s Studies.
Citizens from other nations work harder and we get stuck with citizens that want free educations and their mortgages forgiven. I think these entitlements have gotten way out of hand. Ditto with the money spent on the latest HS and University projects that are much too flashy and overdone. Many are almost at the level of a resort.
We didn’t invest this percentage of our national budget on education in the 1800’s. Do you think our “educated” voters are better than our previously “ignorant” voters in choosing politicians to lead our county? We don’t have politicians that can solve our problems…not sure if they can solve any problem.
Atlanta mom
November 19th, 2011
12:08 pm
Catlady,
The rules about dropping classes have changed. At UGA you can drop only 3 or 5 your entire career there. The numbers are similar for GT and GSU.
Rick in Grayson
November 19th, 2011
12:08 pm
bootney farnsworth November 19th, 2011 11:33 am
@ Rick
I’m curious- exactly how does one create a society with employable citizens who pay taxes without educating them?
===============================
Bootney and William Casey…don’t get me wrong. I do believe in the value of an education.
I believe that we are being wasteful with our taxpayer resources. Many bloggers have stated this in many different ways…that our resources are not be directed properly.
Many bloggers have stated:
(1) many HS students are not ready for college study
(2) many student use the HOPE scholarship money and never even get close to graduating
(3) some of these students are partying at public expense
Many citizens do not pursue higher education and that does not make them ignorant or less able than those that have a college degree. Many citizens without college degrees are smart and productive. How can you justify the waste of HOPE scholarship monies on non-achievers? Better to let the HOPE scholarship pay off the loans of students AFTER the receive their college degree.
Ole Guy
November 19th, 2011
2:44 pm
Why stop at HOPE…let’s go after the whole socialistic thing. Why we can fund the whole enchalada: food, housing (only, of course, the very best), transportation (again, only 2012 high end cars which today’s youth are so richly deserving by virtue of the fact that they were kind enough; so thoughtful of others as to “get bornded”).
What the hell’s going on here!? I realize there are many who seem to tire at the same ole “do for yourself” arguement, so I’ll not bore anyone with my “every generation, prior to the current gen of spoiled bratts has been saddled with problems which they had to both adapt to and handle in the best ways they could” arguement. Just remember, HOPE is like a buzz at the bar. No matter how rowdy things get, sooner or later, ya gotta sober up and face realities.
Kira Willis
November 19th, 2011
3:48 pm
Part of my platform was to make HOPE a reimbursement plan.
As for me and my family, we will continue to save money for our children’s education. I knew the moment the HOPE passed that it was short lived because it was short sighted.
There is grade inflation; there is the mentality that students need to pass their classes and make Bs (this comes from the kids and the parents).
Those of you with children who are not in college, start saving your money as soon as you can, and save as much as you can. HOPE is short-lived.
bootney farnsworth
November 19th, 2011
4:53 pm
until the USG reigns in its out of control spending on non essential
matters, I can not in good conscience even consider a HOPE bailout
bootney farnsworth
November 19th, 2011
4:55 pm
@ catlady
there is a lower rung. its the support people.
at least teachers have a shot at tenure.
AJinCobb
November 19th, 2011
5:36 pm
@Rick in Grayson,
You ask “Why are we so low on the totem pole when compared to other nations?” and appear to offer your opinion that one of the big problems in the US is too much government involvement, subsidies, etc.
The thing is … the other nations that rank higher than the US in education all have a lot MORE activist governments than the US.
catlady
November 19th, 2011
6:11 pm
Atlanta Mom: Thanks for that info. Do you know when that was started? Do you know if that is true at the other levels of college in Georgia?
Bootney: Tenure? In K-12? You mean the “right” to be told why you are losing your job? Whooppee!
I echo your observations about students’ unsupported beliefs that they are ready for college because they got Bs in high school. My kids took the hard courses, made the As, had high SATs, and found out college was a LOT harder than they expected! They ended up graduating with honors, but BOY! was there shock at first when they found out about real studying (NOT the same as reading something!)! How much worse would their experiences have been if they had been mediocre students? I hate to see the line of cr** we feed these kids when we (institutionally) give them the retakes, late turn-ins, no grades lower than 50, etc.
RJ
November 19th, 2011
8:50 pm
@Bootney, teacher tenure ended 10 years ago. There are a few school systems left that still offer it, but most don’t in the state of Georgia. Remember Roy Barnes?! Also, tenure doesn’t prevent a teacher from getting fired.
the prof
November 19th, 2011
9:41 pm
catlady, only 5 W’s in out south Georgia school. After that they start counting as F’s.
bootney farnsworth
November 19th, 2011
10:24 pm
understand tenure is a very limited occurance, but its still more
than support staff get.
bootney farnsworth
November 19th, 2011
10:29 pm
@ catlady
can’t help but think if kids were made to work harder in HS
they’d be a bit more prepared for the culture shock of college.
and they’d actually have the experience of having to work for
grades
Beverly Fraud
November 20th, 2011
1:05 am
When WE THE PEOPLE look at school board candidates, do WE THE PEOPLE ask them. What SPECIFIC policies, with REAL teeth will you pass to EMPOWER teachers to hold students accountable for their behavior/academics and what provisions, with REAL teeth do you intend to add to them to protect teachers from RETALIATION when they enforce them?
When the local BOE interviews a finalist for a Superintendent’s position, do THEY ask that? No people WE THE PEOPLE don’t demand it.
Heck, WE THE PEOPLE are too ignorant and uninformed to even understand the question.
As such, we are getting the school systems we RICHLY and FULLY deserve.
Woody
November 20th, 2011
7:54 am
Maybe college isn’t the best place to grow up.
Shar
November 20th, 2011
9:32 am
@catlady, my duaghter began at UGA in August 2010 and the new policy restricting the number of withdrawals was stressed, so I guess it began then or very shortly before.
My son’s friends who began there 5 years earlier expressed relief that they were not subject to such a policy. They seem to feel that almost no one would be able to keep the HOPE without being able to manipulate their transcripts through painless withdrawals.
Sad.
@Woody,. good point. A great many students arrive in college not merely academically unprepared but socially undisciplined. By the time they have tanked on their midterms and realized that they do not have the study skills they need and that no parent or teacher is around to ’save’ them with extra credit and enforced study time, they are staring at their first Fs and are a semester away from losing the HOPE. The scholarship does, indeed, fund too many semesters of partying and too few of academic achievement, particularly in the first year. A reimbursement system would address this, and should have been the change made instead of the stupid, destructive changes that Deal and his cronies shoved through.
Anonmom
November 20th, 2011
9:35 am
There’s an Emory Univ. Prof with a Psych book that came out recently (past year or 2) about the differences in how eastern and western society treat teenagers. If you really start to research it, I think you’ll find that they way America treats teenagers as “children” is really a “new” thing (past 30-40 years). Otherwise, historically, all cultures, and all societies, going back thousands of years (look at some of the passages in the Bible for anecdotal stories) treat teens as adults. We (Americans) act with disgust about stories today of young boys (12-14) being sent to war in Africa and other parts of the war and other young girls (12-15) being sent off to be married in Muslim countries in Africa and Asia but, maybe, it’s the way America has come to view teens rather than the other way around (no, I’m not saying it’s okay to send such children off to war and marriage –just pointing out that cultures in 2011 still do this). Historically, I bet many of you reading this blog have grandparents/great grandparents who were married by age 16 and/or who emigrated to America alone — leaving other relatives behind around this age. I think Andrew Carnegie was one of these…. My theory (and that supported by the Emory Prof’s research) is that by treating teens as children (e.g. by not allowing study halls because it’s too much free time in high school in DeKalb Schools) — teens rebel and act like kids. Their first real “taste” of adulthood is in college after graduation and they respond — not too well. If we treated our high school kids as adults and gave them responsibilities as adults across the board – rights and responsibilities and consequences — like they had before they became kids (the hormones are there and we give them driver’s licenses — yes, I’m familiar with studies that show that neurons in the brain aren’t fully connected until they’re 25) — they may surprise all of us and rise to the challenge and show us what they are capable of. This means holding them accountable across the board — not picking and choosing — and helping them understand that this is what this means. This means that we have to stop treating sports and music stars as “stars” without any responsibilities and consequences. We have to start teaching responsibility…. Then maybe we’d start seeing some differences. My view on parenting (along with keeping them busy). I’m sorry so many don’t agree with me.
Beverly Fraud
November 20th, 2011
10:12 am
1) The educational system *has* apparently failed some people here. For instance, someone thinks that saying the name of the state’s educational system is itself proof of grade inflation.
YES Shannon it IS…if you are able to INFER. Are you per chance a member of the system? Perhaps you are a WEE bit defensive. Absolutely ZERO need to be. But is it not the university system ITSELF that is making the case that too many of its students are ILL prepared?
If it wasn’t for the university SELF REPORTING that its students are ILL prepared, grade inflation wouldn’t be so evident; is that not true?
Cere
November 20th, 2011
12:09 pm
It’s nice that Ms. Evans cares so much about HOPE and access to college, but I have to agree with the poster who pointed out that the very group of legislators she is a party to have continued to under-fund and deny access to a quality basic k-12 education in our state. Add to these cuts the ‘equalization’ grants taken from low-performing counties such as DeKalb and redistributed to “poor, rural” counties (surprisingly, such as Gwinnett) then we have a formula for k-12 disaster. In fact, this under-funding is showing it’s lack of results in the fact that such a large number of college freshmen in Georgia require remedial classes because they are so under-prepared.
Like Ms. Evans, I like to see smart, motivated kids from poor roots attend college and succeed. I just hope she can see her way clear to agree that the state needs to fully fund a basic k-12 education (and hopefully vocational education for those who don’t attend college).
For more read our post at DeKalb School Watch:
http://dekalbschoolwatch.blogspot.com/2011/11/penny-by-penny.html
FYI
November 20th, 2011
12:52 pm
About limiting college course withdrawals… GSU has been doing this since 2008 or 2009.
Those students who sign up for classes, find they’re getting D’s or F’s, and then withdraw also are getting several weeks of free instruction. They take up spaces in classes during registration and keep out other students who would finish the course; and add to the problem of students not being able to graduate in 4 years because they can’t get into required classes.
Students can get out of classes in the first week during the drop-add period, but after that it counts as a withdrawal. They can’t get something for nothing by staying in class for 6 weeks and then withdrawing without any penalty.
Anonmom
November 20th, 2011
1:57 pm
There’s a lot of scholarship money at a lot schools around the country for poor kids who are smart and hard workers and who do well in school. The federal government has a number of programs available for poor kids in college. It’s really the kid “in the middle” who are feeling the “crunch” more than the poor — the poor may need help in getting the guidance they need in middle school and in high school to “stay on track” in order to get the education they need there to be prepared for college and to apply to college and to be ready for college or to be ready for the “real world” but the funding for college should they (the poor) make it that far really does seem to be there (e.g. if a poor kids makes it into an Ivy league school, they can pretty much get a full ride). I think the focus here is really backwards. The focus really needs to be on preparing the kids for the “real world” when they are in middle and high school. There are also a number of studeis out that indicate (maybe not conclusively) that the “Hope” money really should be spent at the 3-4 year old level and not at the college level since there is an enormous difference between the “background” of a middle class a kid starting kindergarten and a poor kid from an uneduated home starting and the funds can possibly level the field there (there are studies that show the diferences disapper by 3rd grade too). An argument can also be made that HOPE has done a great job of keeping our “best and brightest” in state by keeping some kids at UGA and GA Tech instead of them going out of state over the past 10-15 years and has brought those schools rankings up — a lot — so maybe HOPE should only be used for kids headed into “desired” fields who are the “best and brightest” — with certain SAT scroes so you can’t have grade inflation (it’s hard to cheat the SAT or ACT) and you can make the SAT/ACT score “manageable” (e.g. it doesn’t have to be 95%) but so that it shows “college readiness” — and then only allow it to be used for STEM and lose the grade component and work on passing so it “works” across the board but stops the “game playing” and we can graduate the graduates we need (e.g. math and science teachers from good schools or doctors, etc.). Just some rambling thoughts. It doesn’t make sense to me to spend the funds to pretend like we’re getting kids through college when a huge number are losing HOPE and another huge numbers aren’t ready for college at all.. that seems silly and is a real waste of resources. The political correctness should be taken out of the equation and reality should quick in. Let it be used for community college for “college readiness” if the kids want to go to college and aren’t ready. There are legitimate ways to “skin the cat” .
Anonmom
November 20th, 2011
1:59 pm
It would be interesting too if the colleges “asses” the high schools (or the school districts) if the kids needed remediation when they got there for the remdiation tuitiion.. that would shake the districts up a bit….
Mountain Man
November 21st, 2011
7:59 am
“Paying 10-20% of the cost of your education is not a hardship.”
Hope, even when it paid 100% of TUITION, came nowhere close to paying 80-90% of clooege costs. Fortunately, the last of three children just graduated from college, but we remember the BOOKS (approx. $600 per semester), FEES, room and board; all that added up to a very pricey sum. College fees have increased hugely over the past 8 years. Professors keep assigning new and more costly books (usually written by, you guessed it, the PROFESSOR). Colleges need to examine and rein in some of these costs that students are getting hit with.
Marlena2
November 21st, 2011
8:30 am
The HOPE Scholarship is a phenomenal opportunity for those students that desire to attend college and have a vision as to where he/she desires to take their career. However, many students in Grade 12 still are unaware of their career choice because everyone is pushing traditional college and few are opening their minds to choice. What is needed in our society and specifically in Georgia? Funding must be funneled into the creation of high schools with a vocational/technical swing.Why, in this society, do we push Shakespeare at all students when we could be having students aware of technical reading? Why must all read Shakespeare all four years of high school? We must begin creating engineers, plumbers, auto technicians, cosmetologists, carpenters, robotics,nurses, electricians etc. ..Do you get my gist? We are not exposing our children to the abundance of choices.Educators are informed they must differentiate in their classrooms, so why not differentiate when it comes to our children’s career choice? How much does it cost you to call a plumber and make a home visit? How much does it cost per hour to have the GEEK Squad come to your home to repair your computer? Our children need skills and NOT all students need college in the traditional sense. In our economy, sadly, the college degree does little to secure a job, no less a profession. So, push your state and congressman and counties to stop being myopic with our children’s lives. Let’s truly educate our children for a future.
cosby
November 21st, 2011
8:52 am
put Hope back ot its original intent – College Education – and cut the other entitlements as pre – K. They turned it into a welfare program and as usual, we can not afford another welfare / moocher program! “Nuf said
Anonmom
November 21st, 2011
9:02 am
Marlena2 — I agree with you – the “north” (Ohio and NJ) have really incredible VoTech programs available for high school… down here though, for some reason, mention VoTech, and you are being, guess what? A racist…. So it’s okay to have the kids reach for college (that they may not be prepared for or which may lead to no where great whereas they maybe could be really happy and really wealthy as a carpenter or plumber or whatever lies ahead with some skill they’ve got that society needs) or have them drop out but real VoTech isn’t okay (and some state’s VoTech actually leads to college — e.g. in some agricultural programs)… Have I mentioned that we (GA) should be mimicking what is really working elsewhere and that we should stop “recreating” the wheel…….
howard
November 21st, 2011
9:07 am
let’s face it, under Republican leadership for the past decade Georgia’s entire public education has few if any success stories and is leading to a slow decline on many levels… Our public education system is being intentionally starved to death by Republican lawmakers intent on undermining schools, teachers and students at all levels.
Ole Guy
November 22nd, 2011
5:20 pm
CA, proof of grade inflation lies in the rates of remediation at colleges and universities across the land. By definition, recipients of HOPE are “scholars” of “A/B” quality. Having received those fine grades in the high school arena, it would be logically presumed that the buding college student is at least optimally prepared to handle an academic work load at the collegiate level. THIS is why far too many collegians find themselves “majoring” in remediation.
During my somewhat abreviated sojourn within the public school environment…5th grade…I administered a few math exams, over material which had been covered prior to my arrival, in order that I might evaluate my charges. Employing the politically correct descriptions of the day, the grades were somewhat dismal AT BEST. Furthermore, these grades contrasted, vividly, with the glowing grades their previous teacher had assigned. Upon questioning this disparity, I was told…by this “esteemed” teacher, who had been the recipient of many “teacher of the day/month/year” awards…that grades were awarded on the basis of “trying”.
It came as no mystery that many parents belonged to the same church as this esteemed teacher, played golf with “Mr Esteemed Teacher”, etc, etc, etc.
This, CA, is the indisputable proof of grade inflation.
Ole Gal
November 24th, 2011
4:54 pm
@ Ole Guy.
I’m older than you are, since you noted on another blog that you were born after the end of WWII.
Keep your cheery outlook on life, which probably results from a life well-lived. But I really think that a lot of the “kids” have fears of the future and how they’ll handle it, no matter how they seem outwardly….and in many ways, I think we’ve left them a worse world to deal with than we ever had to handle.
But have a good Thanksgiving.
Ole Guy
November 24th, 2011
10:38 pm
No arguement there, Gal. Somewhere along the way, we really screwed things up for the younger gens. I won’t elaborate on history, nor point accusatory fingers…in the end, we somehow all share responsibility on that one. However, the bottom line, Gal, remains untouched and unvarnished…these KIDS are responsible for what lies ahead, and more importantly, how they intend to address the issues which they will surely face. In order to do so, they must realize that a solid educational foundation is paramount.
Unlike that Greatest Generation, which managed to both survive the Sad 30s, and bring the world back from the brink of insanity, today’s young folks have complete access to news of global conditions and, through applied intelect, what to do about it. The early/mid years of the 20th Century saw tremendous strides in all sectors of contemporary society. Despite resource-draining global commitments, the second half of that Century realized awsome refinements in our global prestige, standards of living, and an optimistic outlook for a bright future. Much as our forefathers have done, we have left those, who are destined to “pick up the ball and run with it”, a “mixed bag” of opportunities and heartache. The Marine Corps mantra of the 60s…”I NEVER PROMISED YOU A ROSE GARDEN”…rings especially true today, just as it has for past generations. As with many experiences, that of the military seems to somehow “make or break” those who accept the challenge…”IF IT DON’T KILLYA, IT’L MAKE YA STRONGER”. This is precisely where the younger gen stands today.
Their fears are very normal…paralysis and inaction, in the form of ignoring the educational opportunities which are available to them, are not. This is why I become somewhat angry when I see much of the educational malaise attributed to such outside influences as lack of parental involvement, less-than ideal educational “infrastructure”, etc. These KIDS aren’t stupid; as with young gens before them, they’re simply too damn lazy and preoccupied with the useless byproducts of a civilization which “done gone ape”…but hey! Is this not exactly what our forefathers said? “The world is going to @#* in a handbasket”. What did YOUR gen do…what did MY gen do? We adapted; we overcame; we, as a civilization, flourished. Those who failed in this universal challenge also failed to realize (as you put it…and thank you) A LIFE WELL-LIVED.
Jezel
November 25th, 2011
6:42 am
Who are the legislators that took funds from HOPE and used those funds to “shore up” shortfalls in other parts of the state budget? No one wants to talk about that forgotten fact.
Ole Guy
November 25th, 2011
11:34 am
Jez, I’m sure we’re painfully aware of the legislators, at both federal and state levels, who “specialize” in fiscal mismanagement. I believe a few “well-placed” keepers of the fiscal gates have even experienced financial woes on the domestic front. The sad issue, however, is not the fact that we don’t talk about these things…after all, money mismanagement has become the hallmark of socioeconomic America…the sad issue lies in the fact that we, as an uninformed constituency, continue to vote in the same charlatans; the career politicians who lose all sense of economic reality (here-a-billion-there-a-billion…next thing ya know, we’re talkin’ real money).
Adding to this sad state of affairs, we don’t demand accountability at the public spending levels. We’ve seen the results of the (so-called) area “town meetings” over educational issues…much dialog while the pre-ordained battle plans are set into motion.
But you are absolutely right, Jezel. Perhaps the AJC might see fit to explore this issue in “behind-the-doors” detail.
Mike McQueary
December 1st, 2011
7:05 am
Since more and more students are qualifying for HOPE merely because of grade inflation…why don’t we tie HOPE to SAT scores and then watch the number of students “qualified” drop dramatically.
Of course, we can’t do that. Standardized test are all racially bias.
Georgia Matters
December 1st, 2011
4:27 pm
TO SouthernGal, they do. Those students who attend technical school to learn a trade are eligable for the Hope Grant. I know, my son went though on that for Heating and air.