Smiley faces on new evals: Kids will mark them but will teachers have them?
I just met with a team from the Georgia Department of Education about its work on using its Race to the Top monies to develop a teacher and leader evaluation tool that incorporates many moving parts, including two 30-minute principal observations, student performance as measured by standardized test scores where there are such scores, other measures in courses without tests, such as middle school chorus and first grade reading, documentation of strong teaching practices, including student work, planning materials and data analysis, and student surveys.
I am going to write about this at length shortly, but wanted to share one slide from the DOE presentation as I think it is a novel idea — asking students even in kindergarten to review their teachers. Students from kindergarten through 12th grade would be surveyed once a year electronically under the pilot.
While the youngest students would circle one of three faces — the best rating being the smiling face — older students would rate teachers on a 1 to 5 agree/disagree scale. A sample statement that older students would be given: “My teacher has deep knowledge about the subject.” (The slide here shows both survey question types.)
Teresa MacCartney, DOE Race to the Top Director Deputy, said, “I want to stress with the kindergarten to 2nd grade survey that we are pushing the bar, but given that we are piloting this, we thought we could see what we could learn from it.”
“It may or may not fly depending on what we learn,” said Martha Ann Todd of DOE’s Teacher and Leader Effectiveness Division.
I want to emphasize that DOE team said the surveys would be a very small part of the teacher evaluation process, which will begin as a pilot in January in the 26 Race to the Top districts.
In a major change, the new evaluations will only be piloted among 10 percent of the teachers in those districts or 4,700 teachers, chosen at random. The task of piloting the new tool for all 47,000 teachers in those districts was too daunting.
Also, some districts will pilot the teacher/leader evaluation system in a single school that represents 10 percent of its work force, while others will pilot it in all their schools but only for a handful of teachers who collectively add up to 10 percent.
I was impressed with the efforts of DOE to create a fair tool, and the team includes former Marietta Middle School language arts teacher Kathie Wood, who is a strong voice for the teacher perspective. (When I asked her what she thought about releasing the teacher evaluation “grades” to parents, she said, “I think it would be horrible.” Her DOE colleagues agreed and that is not in the game plan, but I would not rule out the Legislature getting into that issue someday.)
The DOE team is attempting to be respectful of teachers and the profession, and is focused on creating ways to improve teachers rather than run them off. (Although some will be run off.)
If I were a teacher, I would have more confidence that the state’s intentions are good, but I would also have some concerns about the RTTT timetable and whether these evaluation tools will have enough time to evolve before they are unleashed on the state as a whole. (That would take legislation, but I have no doubt that legislation will be forthcoming mandating statewide evaluations that consider student performance.)
Check back later as I am about to interview the new Milken teacher from Georgia. I spent a half day in Shekema Silveri’s class at Mount Zion High School, but now we are going to talk about her approach.
–from Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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133 comments Add your comment
catlady
November 9th, 2011
3:37 pm
Will the student evaluation results be cross-checked with the administrator evaluations?
dondee
November 9th, 2011
3:39 pm
Can’t wait ?
Gwinnnettian
November 9th, 2011
3:52 pm
You have got to be kidding! That’sd just what we need to do – give the students more power over the teachers. NOT!!!
really?
November 9th, 2011
3:59 pm
How demeaning.
Emily
November 9th, 2011
4:25 pm
Wow, so now it’s demeaning to be evaluated by the people you’re charged with serving. SMH at adults being afraid of accountability from the children to whom they owe a duty.
DeKalb
November 9th, 2011
4:29 pm
Sad….and pathetic….nothing these people are doing is helping to make the kids any smarter.
Elizabeth
November 9th, 2011
4:30 pm
“Some will be run off???” Really?? Wait till you see how many! “Only a small part of teacher evaluations”? Who are they kidding? Teacher evaluation are totally subjective now. You think this will be only a “small part” in this climate of appease the parents and kids, and run off the ones the administrators don’t like or don’t want to support?
All this does is give teachers even less authority over the classroom, and kids more power to get rid of teachers they don’t like. I will be gone for sure because I am a tough no nonsense teacher whom parents, teachers, and some administrators think is “too hard” and “too strict”.
Teachers MUST be militant in fighting this. I, for one, will NEVER, even if I go to jail, sign an evaluation on which student evaluation is configured in. If all teachers do this we would stop it. But some won’t, so teaching as we know it will be dead. The inmates will truly be running the asylum.
Shantel
November 9th, 2011
4:31 pm
How about one of those smiley face evals for this blog?
@Emily
November 9th, 2011
4:32 pm
It WILL indeed be demeaning when evals from kids include those who will think it’s fun to give a poor evaluation to “get the teacher in trouble,” or those who don’t like the teacher because he/she won’t allow the student to sit there and disrupt the class. It has nothing at all to do with teachers being afraid of accountability. It has everything to do with a lack of respect for the teaching profession from parents, students, legislators. That’s what I “smh” at.
HS Public Teacher
November 9th, 2011
4:33 pm
As a highly successful teacher by ANY measure, I am very insulted by Georgia, Race to the Top, and all of the very demeaning ways the public in Georgia perceive teachers.
As such, I have plans to leave this State. I must teach one more year after this year due to repayment of HOPE. After that, I am already making plans to get the heck out of this sad State.
I was born and raised here. But, the leadership in this State along with the warped views from the public has made my profession impossible.
What do I take with me when I leave? Well, I have taught:
1. Honors Biology – my students have scored in the top 95% in GA and have a 85% rating of “exceeds expectations.
2. Honors Chemistry
3. College Prep Phyiscs
4. AP Phyiscs B – my students have a 90% pass rate on the AP exam
5. AP Physics C – my students have a 95% pass rate on the AP exam
So, for those of you that will respond, “we don’t want you anyway,” that is fine with me. I am sure that another State will welcome my skills and appreciate me for the professional that I am!
Hey Teacher
November 9th, 2011
4:34 pm
I know several teachers who have been badly burned by rate-your-teacher dot com — I don’t see how this would be any different.
When I was in high school, my favorite teachers were not the ones who necessarily taught me anything — I’m afraid that some of our best instructors would get the worst evaluations.
Emily
November 9th, 2011
4:36 pm
@@Emily,
An administrator with good judgment will be able to discern those student evaluations that are based on a poor motive. If your teaching is up to snuff, it will speak for itself.
Maureen Downey
November 9th, 2011
4:46 pm
@Hey, The state will statistically sift through student responses to deal with that, and they will reconcile the surveys with other info on the teacher. I don’t think the surveys will endanger teachers. The DOE folks are aware of all the pitfalls, and the fact that student responses are often influenced by the day, by what’s been happening in the class, by factors not even related to the teacher.
Maureen
Good Mother
November 9th, 2011
4:54 pm
What type of evaluation do teachers think IS fair and accurate?
I often hear the criteria for this or that evaluation is unfair according to teachers but of course every worker must be evaluated.
We all have vivid memories of our own “good teacher” and our own “bad teacher.”
That can be measured.
In business we measure an employee from all criteria — the employees rate their employers and vice versa. Employees are also evaluated by their customers and peers. It’s called a 360 appraisal. It isn’t new.
Emily
November 9th, 2011
5:07 pm
Has anyone considered the possibility that students, particularly middle and high school students, will become more accountable for their own education if they are sent the message that they have a voice in their schools? Or, is it too difficult to weigh the student perspective because we’re busy trying to make adults feel comfortable and secure in their jobs?
HS Public Teacher
November 9th, 2011
5:10 pm
@Maureen – Might you be a tad naive? Hasn’t the DOE folks messed up enough in the past? Would YOU place your career and paycheck in THEIR hands?
Besides, even if they were “perfect”, you are ignoring the fact that DOING this (asking kids their opinion) is very demeaning to professional adult teachers.
sloboffthestreet
November 9th, 2011
5:11 pm
Come on people. Everyone knows that a frown is just a smile turned upside down. I think someone is pulling on your foot!
RELAX!
I love teaching. I hate what it is becoming...
November 9th, 2011
5:11 pm
I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. It seems obvious that the folks coming up with these ideas have never worked closely with children. There are so many ways in which these types rating could be misused – intentionally or not.
For example, I asked my students to rate a new flexible grouping math program we are running at my school. One of the questions was similar to “My teacher knows a lot about what she is teaching.” Several students chose “No” as a response. I was a bit surprised, as I had though the class was going very well. The students seemed happy, and I felt we were better meeting their individual needs. So I met with each child one on one, to see why they felt I did not know what I was doing. Each one had the exact same reason for their answer. ONE TIME I had made a mistake while doing a calculation on the board. It was a simple mistake, but I was tired and not concentrating and made an error. It was unusually for me to do so, and BECAUSE it was unusual, it stuck in the children’s minds. The hundreds of correct calculations were ignored in favor of the one that stood out because it was an unusual occurance. This is very typical of children. Now, in being able to talk to the children, it was easy to help them see that one mistake did not really mean I was incompetant, but what if this had been an “offical” evaluation? I would have been declared a “bad teacher” by several of my students, based upon the fact I made a single mistake one day. They would not really have understood the ramifications of their responses. Young children don’t think like adults.
I don’t even want to contemplate what older children could do with a system like this. Just reading RATE MY TEACHER makes it clear that such “reports” are highly subjective, and vary a great deal even when rating the same teacher.
HS Public Teacher
November 9th, 2011
5:12 pm
@Emily – Huh? How in the world would getting kids to take a survey regarding their opinion about their teachers make them in any way more responsible for their education?????? Do you think that by taking this survey, they will suddenly actually DO their homework? Or, maybe they will actually stupid for a test?
Give me a break!
Atlanta mom
November 9th, 2011
5:14 pm
“While the youngest students would circle one of three faces”
NO NO NO
They will need to blacken the correct circle. Otherwise they will get confused on the CRCT.
dekalbed
November 9th, 2011
5:15 pm
Emily,
Exactly, how would these administrators discern the poorly motivated evaluations? Will students be signing their names?
Does anyone else think that the customer service approach to grading-in which supposed effort is most important-will influence these evaluations?
Many students realize only when they get to college how instrumental those “hard” or “difficult” teachers were. However, when students are trying to manage rigorous courses, extra-curricular activities, and busy social lives, they may find it hard to provide a dispassionate evaluation.
Maureen Downey
November 9th, 2011
5:15 pm
@HS Public Teacher, I have concerns about this system, but they are not over the student survey. My concerns:
1. Principals will not have the time to do the required and pivotal observations and then score the teachers on the mandated areas. The observations will become a chore that everyone hates and fails to take seriously.
2. The criteria to judge non core teachers will be wobbly and inconsistent, and probably not really tell anybody much.
3. We don’t let this pilot go long enough to see if the teachers rated at either extreme shift dramatically over time, as they did in one study in Florida.
Maureen
Emily
November 9th, 2011
5:18 pm
@ HS Public Teacher. Let me break down:
1. Isn’t it true that SOME students are unmotivated to do well in school?
2. Isn’t it true that SOME students feel that there are negative aspects of their educational experience that they are powerless to change?
3. Isn’t it true that giving SOME previously disaffected and disenfranchised students some authority over their negative school experiences MAY change their attitude towards schooling?
I’m not speaking in absolutes for a reason. The teacher survey may not help every student. Many will, undoubtedly, blow it off. But, if it makes SOME children more of a stakeholder in their education, then it’s worth the temporary discomfort to teachers (especially with the safeguards that will be put in place by the DOE).
After all, the schools are not about you, boo.
Lisa B.
November 9th, 2011
5:23 pm
Hmmm. My favorite teacher in high school was an amazing-looking coach. We spent time making signs, posters, goodie bags for athletes, etc. I can’t remember what subject he taught, but his eyes were AMAZING.
My most hated teacher was an extremely critical, all-business language arts teachers. She made us all redo everything millions of times, would never just let us read a book with analyzing every component, and she never, ever let us work on anything fun.
After I tested out of two college English classes, and aced three others, my feelings about that high school language arts teacher changed.
I can’t even remember the coach’s name. I am horrified at the thought that if I were a high school student today I could possibly be trusted to evaluate teachers.
Lisa B.
November 9th, 2011
5:24 pm
Oops- I meant “read a book WITHOUT analyzing….”
mg
November 9th, 2011
5:31 pm
Okay, my students are going to rate whether I have knowledge of the content. I’m sure the poor ratings are on the way. One of my most effective teaching tools with my students (Kindergarteners) is to make a mistake or tell them I don’t remember how to do something. They immediately become engrossed in helping me correct the mistake or re-learn what I’ve forgotten. While my students are helping me, the one or two students who make that particular error again and again always seem to “get it”.
Anyone who thinks it’s a good idea to ask young children to rate their teachers hasn’t spent enough time around young children. They truly don’t have the meta-cognitive skills necessary to understand if a teacher is helping them learn or not. If they know something today, then in their mind they’ve always known it. One of my best moments each year is when I let my students see the portfolio I’ve kept with some of their work from the year. The students try to throw the early work away, insisting that it’s not theirs. They will argue endlessly that “I know how to write my name, this person didn’t even make the J right.”
If someone truly wants to evaluate my teaching, spend a couple of hours with me in the classroom, watch what I do for an extended period of time. THEN sit down with me and ask me why I taught the lessons the way I did and look over my students’ work with me. If you insist on including test scores, fine, I’ve got several available that demonstrate how much my students have learned since they’ve been with me this year. None of it is a standardized test or a fill in the bubble test, but if someone takes the time to review it all, it’s clear my students are learning.
Oops, that’s the problem. Good teacher evaluations take time, lots and lots of time. All these people screaming about accountability want a checklist that they can walk in and complete in 10 minutes,
Eric
November 9th, 2011
5:33 pm
What will DOE come up with next? Kids who don’t like school or the teacher, who are making bad grades or have bad behavior, will certainly give the teacher a bad rating! Ever heard of grudges? This is not a novel idea–this is disturbing! This asks way too much of teachers for accountability purposes. This whole discussion on teacher quality has reached a level of paranoia! Ms. Downey, please leave well enough alone and find something else to write about.
JT
November 9th, 2011
5:37 pm
When will teachers be able to evaluate administrators (school level and district level)? There are so many support staff members charged with helping teachers to improve student achievement; however, teachers (at least in APS) are not allowed to give feedback on the effectiveness, or lack of, help. I left the corporate world to become a teacher. I had become accustomed to 360 evaluations. The feedback seems aimed at trying to play gotcha with teachers rather than helping teachers to improve. At the AJC panel discussion, the Georgia Teacher of the Year expressed this sentiment when he stated his first principal did not use his first observation as a reason to give him NIs (Needs Improvement) and run him out the profession but to develop him.
old teacher
November 9th, 2011
5:37 pm
I wonder how they will rate me if I give them detention?
Emily
November 9th, 2011
5:43 pm
@mg,
You sound like a dedicated teacher whose students are lucky to have you. I appreciate you offering concrete examples of effective teacher evaluations. My frustration with so many of the posters here is that they are quick to point out why teacher evaluations don’t work.
I’m sure your students have plenty of smiley faces for you.
Inman Park Boy
November 9th, 2011
5:44 pm
If the surveys would not “endnger” teachers, what are they for in the first place? The whole idea is ludicrous.
Maureen Downey
November 9th, 2011
5:51 pm
@Inman, I think they are to provide some “customer” feedback, but I think the bulk of the evaluations will be student test data, observations and best practices documentation. Those will be the more decisive factors.
Maureen
Kindergarten Teacher
November 9th, 2011
5:57 pm
I am laughing at this. Several of my students will circle all three faces. Sorry- they just do not circle one. Race to the TOP has put more strains on teachers and education in the state of GA. The money we are receiving has soooooooooooooooooo many strings attached.
JW
November 9th, 2011
6:00 pm
Give all the students some candy or have a party the day of the survey. Problem solved. That’s literally how easily manipulated such surveys will be.
Maureen Downey
November 9th, 2011
6:01 pm
@Kindergarten teacher, I thought the same thing, but I assume that they will be carefully instructed — and the survey administration will be overseen by teachers from others classes. Not sure how much worth the state will get out kindergarten reviews.
Maureen
AnOriginalPeach
November 9th, 2011
6:20 pm
When are we as teachers going to get the opportunity to evaluate these sorry behind parents, from whom all of these student problems in education stem?
Sam
November 9th, 2011
6:56 pm
It seems that all the so called professional teachers care about is getting a good evalutation and their raise. It sounds really pitiful.
Emily
November 9th, 2011
7:03 pm
@OriginalPeach,
Never, though I wish you could. You are charged with educating all the children, remember? Not just the ones from supportive ones.
Who is John Galt?
November 9th, 2011
7:07 pm
“The DOE folks are aware of all the pitfalls, and the fact that student responses are often influenced by the day, by what’s been happening in the class, by factors not even related to the teacher.” …BUT THEY ARE GOING TO DO IT ANYWAY. Student achievement would improve if the millions of dollars spent on the thousands of state and county bureaucrats were distributed as close to the student as possible….in other words, in the classroom. Smaller classrooms and more teachers are the best ways to improve learning.
Progressive Humanist
November 9th, 2011
7:11 pm
The data would be meaningless- just more wasted time and money. There is a very low correlation between how much a student learns in a class and their disposition towards how much they like the class or the teacher. A Harvard study from a couple years ago showed that students reported the most learning in the classes that they had to write the most in, and these were not the classes they liked the most or taught by the teachers they liked the most. Students often don’t like the courses they have to work the hardest in, and by extension the teacher, but they often learn the most in those classes.
The data may make for some interesting correlational research years from now (or become an EdD dissertation for a county office administrator who will make his staff write it all up). But it’s not going to yield any information of any use to current public education, and the money used for it could probably hire quite a few extra teachers for the year.
Concerned Parent
November 9th, 2011
7:15 pm
I can only imagine the frustration HS Teacher feels, and I tip my hat to professionals like her. But this issue is not a personal attack instituted by a non-supportive populace. Job evaluations are the norm in most jobs, and college courses have student evaluations. In some professional licensing courses for adults, instructor evaluations are mandatory by the licensing body.
If a teacher, such as HS Teacher, is doing exemplary work, then I don’t see an evaluation as demeaning. How else is this state going to identify teachers who are woefully substandard?
(I’m not just talking about teachers who can’t pass the basic skills test – that’s another issue – but the ones who are “phoning it in” or unprepared, and every organization has some workers like that.)
TeacherMom4
November 9th, 2011
7:18 pm
No, Sam. The problem is we are already held more accountable for outcomes than any of the other stakeholders involved. Adding a layer of student surveys will tell nothing of value. Kids don’t evaluate well who they learn the most from; they evaluate well those they like the best. Some of the coolest parents out there make the worst parents….. They might be loved by all the kids around, but that doesn’t mean they produce responsible, well adjusted, productive adults.
Dekalbite
November 9th, 2011
7:26 pm
Since math and science are the hardest subjects for U.S. students (judging by our lack of science and math achievement and math and science majors in college), does anyone think the difficulties our students have inthese subjects might influence their viewpoints? Just what we need – more pressure on math and science teachers – the ones we have such a hard time getting as teachers and the very areas the U.S. is so behind in.
BB
November 9th, 2011
7:27 pm
Another reason to make me glad I’m retired.
ssh
November 9th, 2011
7:41 pm
As a teacher, I guess I’ll need to keep some treats on my desk–just in case!!!! LOL!
Former Teacher
November 9th, 2011
7:41 pm
I don’t know if this particular evaluation tool is well crafted or not, but as a former teacher, I wouldn’t object to students evaluating teachers as one prong of a comprehensive evaluation. When I taught, everyone knew perfectly well who the lousy teachers and highly effective teachers were. In my experience, the overall student sentiment matched the overall teacher sentiment. Check out ratemyteachers.com and similar sites. Kids are already doing this on an informal level.
Former Teacher
November 9th, 2011
7:46 pm
I forgot to point that that I’m a former high school teacher, and I’m speaking from that perspective and about that age group.
I_teach
November 9th, 2011
7:48 pm
Someone, please…My students are now expert in a subject to tell whether or not *I* know content?? Really?
I am one of the 70% who do not have test scores tied to my classes. I am one of those who may have to have 40% of my annual eval based on my students’ and their parents’ opinions. OPINIONS.
When my first – fifth graders know more about the curriculum than I do, they will be qualified to answer whether or not I “know a lot about what I am teaching.”
Junk. And more junk. Rather than wait until the bugs were fixed, GA jumped in..and I am in one of the RTTT counties that has NO idea how to implement any of this!
My formerly happy school is one big, tension-filled brick building. NO ONE smiles anymore. Not even our administrator.
Shannon
November 9th, 2011
7:53 pm
I have two masters degrees and am working on my Ph.D.
Even as late in education as a masters program, I can recall a professor I had for a class I thought I hated. I wrote a harsh evaluation of her, dissecting her methodology, her ideological stance, and her grading.
Five years later, I realize that her class is the one that prepared me for what I’m doing now. It was in her class that I was introduced to certain authors who are mainstays of my studies as well as pedagogical concepts that continue to help me in the collegiate classroom as an instructor.
Similarly, I was not fond of my high school AP History teacher. I hated the subject and found her boring. However, that was the first class where I learned the difference between primary and secondary sources, and I was taught to go to primary sources and study them carefully for clues about what was actually happening at pivotal moments in American history. It took at least a decade for me to realize what a treasure that class actually was.
Leaving aside the problematic reversal of most of educational history to make the student the “customer” (as opposed to someone who is privileged to be learning), asking students to evaluate instructors has this issue. Some classes and teachers cannot be fairly evaluated in the moment. The more difficult the course and teacher, the more true this is.
I tend to get very high course evals from students–and sometimes I worry that this is an indication that I’m teaching too much to what students want and not what they need.
Don
November 9th, 2011
8:07 pm
Yup; I’m a HS teacher. Unlike most of my colleagues here, I don’t have an issue with my “customers” providing feedback on my performance, subject-matter knowledge etc.
Confused
November 9th, 2011
8:12 pm
My questions is the following. Are the inmates running the asylum? You are going to ask Kindergarden and up to evaluate if their teacher know they are teaching. Another question is how are Kindergarden going to know. You have the multiple ways to evaluate what a teacher knows now.
I love teaching. I hate what it is becoming...
November 9th, 2011
8:16 pm
@Sam “It seems that all the so called professional teachers care about is getting a good evaluation and their raise. It sounds really pitiful.”
Really? I don’t recall a single teacher mentioning anything about a raise on this thread. Maybe the reason we are able to point out potential pit falls of such a process is that we are “professionals” and actually know what we are talking about! I have worked with young children for approximately seven hours a day for over 21 academic years – not to mention church groups, child care work, and babysitting. I dare say I have a much better understanding of HOW young children think than most of those who are advocating allowing them to pass judgment on their teachers. Teaching is a unique job unlike any other. People keep trying to shove teaching into some predetermined category and evaluate as your would other professions – but doing so fails to take into account those unique aspects of teaching that are unlike any other field.
The thing is, I am fairly certain that, for the most part, I would receive good evaluations from both my parents and students. Certainly, word of mouth around the school is generally positive in my case. I am not really worried about MY evaluations. However, I also know enough about the field to recognize that some very good teachers could easily be misrepresented or undermined by such approaches – and I am enough of a “professional” to advocate for my WHOLE profession and not just for myself.
Beverly Fraud
November 9th, 2011
8:34 pm
Let’s just put into perspective how mind-numbing this action truly is:
Children WHO DON’T KNOW HOW TO READ, (thus the smiley faces) will help to determine the career fate of a reading teacher, based on how well the teacher knows reading?
Brilliant!
We can let children who DON’T KNOW HOW TO READ evaluate teachers as to their worthiness to teach reading, but MacCartney won’t dare touch giving teachers some CHECKS and BALANCES by allowing teachers to evaluate administrators?
Is it wrong to ask whether our blog moderator appears to be very muted in her criticism of the DOE and their latest genius “cure du juor because she fears being too critical will hamper her unfettered access to Matt the Mouthpiece? (Apologies for not remembering the last name)
If the above question is INDEED not fair and legitimate, please make the case that this is, because from this perspective, the DOE is writing the manual not on how to make teachers “accountable” but on how to drive teachers AWAY. Permanently.
No wonder “Fled” fled. Non readers evaluating reading teachers on how well they know reading?
Beverly Fraud
November 9th, 2011
8:39 pm
“Has anyone considered the possibility that students, particularly middle and high school students, will become more accountable for their own education if they are sent the message that they have a voice in their schools?”
That would be NO Emily, because if that “possibility” you claim exists was anymore remote, it would be called PLUTO.
Beverly Fraud
November 9th, 2011
8:46 pm
What do functional illiterates, mentally disabled persons, child abusers, drug addicts and those who suffer from severe psychosis all have in common? As long as they can also go by the title of “parent” they will be able, in the near future, to help determine the professional fate of teachers.
Is this not true? Will anyone at the DOE deny this isn’t true?
2nd career teacher
November 9th, 2011
9:13 pm
This is absurd, and anyone who thinks that children can evaluate an adult is not living in the real world or has a cruel motive in disguise. There is no way this type of evaluation will help children’s learning because by nature children do not want to learn, they want to socialize with friends or else sleep because they were up all night on Facebook or video games. The last thing they want to do is several long division problems. Think about it people. Students’ favorite teachers are the pretty ones, the cool ones, and those who let them goof off or do fun things. This is not a 360 because the evaluators do not have the maturity nor knowledge to observe and judge. The children have no motive in improving the system. I could go on and on. It’s just stupid, no the ones driving this survey are stupid. And how much of our tax money does this survey cost? Yes, I’m a teacher and I pay taxes too.
Emily
November 9th, 2011
9:20 pm
Second career teacher, I pray that you have retired by the time my son is school age. How dare you say that children do not want to learn. It is very dangerous for you to speak in such absolutes. I am sure that the children you think so little of can pick up on your bitterness and lack of faith in them. You have no right to your paycheck, pension or a role in any child’s future.
Beverly Fraud
November 9th, 2011
9:27 pm
@2nd career teacher, I disagree that this is, in your words, “stupid”
Driving without a seat belt because you want to be able to quickly jump out of a car in case of collision…that would be “stupid.”
Jumping off a building in a thunderstorm, because you don’t think gravity works in the rain…that would be “stupid”
This proposal goes so far beyond the sheer, total, abject ignorance in the two examples above, that new descriptors will have to be invented to adequately describe it..
Beverly Fraud
November 9th, 2011
9:36 pm
“How dare you say that children do not want to learn.”
How dare INDEED Emily. In fact, just the other day I was with a group of parents and they ALL had the same lament:
We spent all this money on PlayStation and Wi and all the accessories we can NEVER get the kids to go within five miles of them. ALL they want to do is pull out paper and pencil and work long division problems. And the television? Forget it. Can’t get them to watch it for 30 seconds, much less 30 minutes. ALL they talk about is paper, pencil, and divisions problems.
It’s a real problem, I must admit. Kids just won’t play video games these days or watch TV to save their lives.
Pink
November 9th, 2011
9:43 pm
I’m tired of every word over three syllables having to be shortened into a slang word. Can we have a word over three syllables?
Veteran teacher, 2
November 9th, 2011
10:11 pm
When did people get the idea that teachers are not already evaluated????? I have an evaluation that is about 15 pages long every year. It takes at least two hours for the preliminary part, many observations (about 10) from administration, and the final conference lasts about two hours and includes test scores and other evidence of learning.
Maureen mentions two administrator observations per teacher. I frankly would not want to work for a principal that visited my classroom only twice a year. I would question whether that administrator really knows what is going on in my classroom if s/he only came in a couple of times.
This is at least the third different evaluation system the state has come up with in my career. Remember TPAI? Challenged in court and thrown out. Remember GTOI? Currently in effect, but watered down since its inception. In the hands of a capable administrator, GTOI can be used to improve or remove ineffective teachers.
Timid administrators will not be able to use this new-fangled evaluation instrument to get rid of ineffective teachers, either. Why does everyone think the problem is with the evaluation instrument?? The problem is that administrators in some places are not using evaluations effectively.
Anyone who thinks that teenagers can effectively provide formal feedback on effectiveness of teachers has not worked with the current generation of teenagers. Everything is about me, me, me, and me. Most of the teenagers would not bother to even answer the survey because that would require effort, and they would receive no grade (I hope!!) for doing it. A few would be very gracious to answer positively for a teacher that they connect with, and a few more would answer any such survey with nasty venom for teacher that they don’t like, or those that are demanding. I personally would not feel comfortable with the state saying they would filter such comments out. They also think the CRCT tests and EOCT tests are valid measures of academic achievement.
To all the cynics out there: I don’t fear any evaluation you may come up with. All I ask is that you make the evaluation valid, based on what I do, or don’t do, and that you don’t waste my time with busy work just for the sake of paper work. I think the evaluation I get every year is very authentic, fair, and proper. If the evaluations given by your school system are insufficient, do something about it.
Janet
November 9th, 2011
10:22 pm
I’m not a teacher and have limited experience in public schools as my daughter is only in kindergarten, but I think this is a crazy idea. I can’t believe the person who came up with the kindergarten idea even said that out loud. Kids are immature, irrational, and spontaneous and giving them control over a teacher’s ability to be employed is absurd. I remember not even taking teacher evals seriously in college. I actaully remember writing something about a particular teacher’s “comb over” hair. Stupid, I know. Can you imagine what middle schoolers will write???
And I don’t think parents will be much better. In my experience, most parents are double income families. They are good people who love their kids and do care about their education, but are still pretty much clueless about what’s actually going on inside the school walls. They just expect teachers to do their job so they can go to work and do theirs. They just don’t have time to participate at the school to actually know what’s going on so having them do teacher evaluations would not be a great idea in my opinion.
Plus, doesn’t something like this seem like alot of work for such a “small part” of the evaluation? And now they will have to some fancy algorithm to compensate for the kids who are just being silly by giving good marks to the “bad or easy” teachers. Then all that extrra work will mean more money spent on administrators to decipher it all.
Judy
November 9th, 2011
10:48 pm
This is a great idea… what is the problem. If you are doing a great job, then you should not care who is rating you. Teachers rate principals and students should rate teachers.
ScienceTeacher671
November 9th, 2011
10:59 pm
Like Lisa B., I had several teachers I didn’t much like until a year – or two or three – after I’d had their class. I probably wouldn’t have been kind on an end-of-year evaluation.
ScienceTeacher671
November 9th, 2011
11:00 pm
Judy, where do teachers rate principals? Not in my district!
Anonmom
November 9th, 2011
11:01 pm
I think that middle and high school students (even older elementary) can provide input (not the “be all, end all” but input) into the teacher evaluation process. I think that there is merit to the teacher knowing that the students in the classroom have a “voice” and that they can’t be “trampled” on. As I’ve previously said, we’ve had some (some) excellent teachers at some local DCSS schools. We have also expereinced teachers who have had the ability to teach but have made it clear that white boys were not their top choie to teach and entered “power struggles” with my sons (all of whom are gifted-one pretty good math teacher– department chair actually threw things at the kids during class and had anger managment problems but he could use the Socratic method to teach 10th-12th graders math — scare the crap out of them but they learned the material). When Lakeside regularly indcucts (on a subjective process) 2/3 girls (white girls) to 1/3 boys to National Honor Society under standards that are far more “onerous” than any other school in the area, you have a lot of underlying bias in many areas of the school that no one is really honing in on or paying attenion to — my spin on it (biased as it is) is that boys are boying crushed (the boys that do well are the ones that can get by without drawing attention to themselves and who don’t need teachers — they can teach themselves. If the kids get to input on just how the teacher is treating the students and if the teacher seems to know what they are teaching (there are plenty of examples at Lakeside of math teachers being corrected by students and then taking their inability to correct themselves out on the kids) — there’s some merit here to student input (there really are some not-so-bright teachers — take a look at the recent news report of the teachers who failed the licensing exam 5 times and remember that Georgia’s licensing exam is actually one of the easier ones — some ot fhe kids are really smarter than their teachers and this isn’t a pretty dynamic in some classes (this is why truly gifted kids really do need teachers who can really handle them). As Lisa siad, the kids don’t yet have the perspective that they need so these surveys can’t be the “whole thing” but they could really be a very useful tool.
Were Out!
November 9th, 2011
11:10 pm
If teachers are allowed to evaluate students… then students should be allowed to evaluate teachers. In some colleges this is a standard practice, it is about “performance” and if a teacher cannot “perform then they should be called on it. My high schooler knows already who is a capable teacher and who is not. Why do you think parents become involved in the PTA… not because they really care about other kids.. they know that is the only way they can make sure their kid gets the best teachers. I know as a parent what teacher I do not want my kid to have due to their reputation as a poor educator… it’s time to look at the whole picture ie. why our kids are not prepared for college. Having been an educator of adults in the corporate world, evaluations from students provide valuable information into how to improve not only your teaching methods but how to deliver curriculum to All students. Granted many of these kids are not capable of understanding why they are doing this, but young kids are usually honest, if enough poor evals of the same opinion then the principal should plan to spend more time looking at this teacher.
Truth in Moderation
November 10th, 2011
2:22 am
Let’s see… Government school teachers are required (mostly) to have an education degree or expertise in the subject area they are teaching. Colleges grant degrees certifying this training. The principal then interviews teaching candidates before hiring them. All teachers have been through two gatekeepers before being allowed to teach. The direct beneficiaries of the work of the teacher are the students and parents. Students are under “in loco parentis” at the school. The parents and the principal should have the final say in the teacher evaluation. Many parents can vote by removing their child from the school. The principal would hear of any complaints, and could directly observe the teacher to check out the credibility. The principal would have the authority to fire the teacher. Any teacher dissatisfied with their treatment, can quit. No one is guaranteed a job, life isn’t always fair, and NO SMILEY FACES CIRCLED BY 5 YR. OLDS ARE NEEDED! This is a sick joke by the shadow government. Together, citizens and teachers can fight this.
Truth in Moderation
November 10th, 2011
2:46 am
Joe tries to cover for the TBTF’s. Can’t get past informed, smart constituents!
That lady should run for office!
http://thehill.com/video/house/192613-rep-joe-walsh-gets-heated-during-constituent-meeting
Janet
November 10th, 2011
3:04 am
This is a joke, right?
I’m not sure why this evaluation thing is so hard. Good teachers can identify other good teachers. At the college level, high standards are maintained through peer review. Other professions (doctors, lawyers) do something similar. We should be looking at incorporating peer review systems for other levels as well. Evaluations would be done by teachers from different schools to avoid any bias due to personality clashes… some fraction of evaluations would be done across county lines or even state lines. Evaluations would be based on classroom visits, review of student work, and possibly written and/or oral examination of students in some (random) cases. Each teacher would be evaluated by several peers. Experienced teachers who consistently receive good evaluations would have their evaluations of others weighted somewhat more heavily. It would take some amount of time and money to make this happen, but the results would be more than worth the investment. The majority of teachers know their jobs and are doing their best in spite of the ridiculous burdens imposed by administrators and others… over time these evaluations would rise to the top. Teachers who mean well but lack skills or training could be helped to improve… the few that are truly bad would be removed. The current focus on “bad teachers” is terrible for morale and gives power and respect to the administration, parents, students (!) – everyone but the teachers, who can’t do their job without some amount of power and respect in the classroom. Focus on the positives, insist on better training, and offer better pay for those who do well in evaluations including a strong peer-review component, and those ill-suited for the task will fall away or naturally be pushed out, without the need for the “witch hunt” for bad teachers that is going on right now.
Beverly Fraud
November 10th, 2011
5:31 am
Again, here is something NOBODY at the state DOE will deny:
What do functional illiterates, mentally disabled persons, child abusers, drug addicts and those who suffer from severe psychosis all have in common? As long as they can also go by the title of “parent” they will be able, in the near future, to help determine the professional fate of teachers.
Will ANYBODY at the state DOE deny this is a true statement?
d
November 10th, 2011
6:19 am
I guess I am lucky. I teach a course (Economics) that does have a state test.
Two earlier comments got my attention. “Students by nature don’t want to learn…”. I disagree. Students do want to learn, but not necessarily what is in the state curriculum. While I believe that students should have an understanding of basic economics, do all students really need to know the finer points of monetary policy, aggregate supply and demand, how to read currency exchange tables, etc.?
“Good teachers can identify other good teachers.’. Why is the state so afraid to et the professionals take control of the regulation of their own profession? Believe it or not, I have seen the “union” counsel people out of the profession. We don’t want bad teachers amongst our ranks.
marie
November 10th, 2011
6:37 am
I am an educator. I am so saddened by the overall tone in this posts. I hear the same comments in
daily conversations with my fellow teachers. i do believe that the “powers that be” believe that they are operating in the best interest of the children and their overall intentions are good. It is not working. All decision shoulds revolve around INSTRUCTION and how it can be maximized in the classroom. Decisions should be based on common sense. Teachers know how to teach. We know how to differentiate. We know what curriculum is effective. PLEASE stop placing such demands on us that waste valuable time that could be used to plan for classroom instruction. We are losing focus. Most reform is put in place to simply to cover for the ineffective teachers and administrators. Focus on them and leave the rest of us alone.
RobertNAtl
November 10th, 2011
7:09 am
Kindergarteners rating their teachers with smiley faces? This is an article from “The Onion,” right?
Ed Johnson
November 10th, 2011
7:49 am
Instead of being a way to get from students reflections and assessments of their own learning in order to inform efforts to continually improve the system of teaching and learning, what we have here is a further disruption of the system by “the DOE attempting … to improve teachers ….”
Will the foolishness ever end?
Maureen, have you ever witnessed Dr. Deming’s “Experiment with the Red Beads?” If no, I’d welcome an invitation to show it.
Elizabeth
November 10th, 2011
7:51 am
It is about respect for teachers. Authority is already seriously undermined in the classroom. NO child at any age knows enough to “evaluate” an adult. The whole thing is a joke that will turn into a tragedy and result in multitudinous lawsuits. And classrooms will be in chaos.
Dr NO / Mr Sunshine
November 10th, 2011
7:52 am
Alas, yet another hugely STUPID idea takes to the wing. All I can say is teachers be sure to cheat a little, giving your kiddies good grades, keep the snack/candy bowl full and basically kiss their young butts.
I ENCOURAGE ALL TEACHERS to do the above. If you do then your scores will be wonderful.
And remember you want lots of
and few 
Dr NO / Mr Sunshine
November 10th, 2011
8:05 am
Some other ideas to assist the victims here ie teachers. Every week have a little contest, one for the boys and one for the girls.
Just draw names from a box and the winner gets some little prize. For the boys say a little HotWheel car and girls a little bracelet or headband. The children will be delighted and any negative thoughts they have at evaluation time will be overpowered by their latest worthless trinket.
You teachers should manipulate this grading system in any way possible until it is deemed worthless, which most of us know it is, by the idiots in charge.
Anonmom
November 10th, 2011
8:16 am
I also want to add that in DCSS there is an inordinate number of principals who are not qualified for their jobs — they have been promoted there under the “friends and family” plan — they don’t have too much experience, themselves, as teachers. Further, they seem to be threatened by the really good teachers and seem to give the “good” teachers bad reviews and the “bad” teachers the good reviews — (we are “Alice looking through the looking glass”). I think, at least under Dr. Lewis, there may have been an intent to keep “new” principals at schools — if a principal isn’t at a school for at least 3 years, you can never get rid of a teacher — the first year at a school — the principal is learning the staff; the 2nd year, the principal is now figuring out which staff needs new “careers” — the 3rd year, the documentation process can begin to get rid of the really bad teachers (yes, they really are out there). If you move the principal every 3rd year, you never reach this point (you also never get a principal who learns how to “Maximize” points to get additional teachers or to lobby for additional points, so more points stay at the central office level — so as an administrator, fewer teachers depart and more money stays in administration — this is my theory). When the new principal comes in, all the work to start to document the teachers “needing a new career” finds the circular file” and the process begins again. If you look at the DCSS school (there are almost 150 of them), I think you’ll find under 10 with principals who have been in place over 5 years. If students are allowed to input (again, not as the “final say so”) as to how well their teachers are doing, with questions that they can truly answer as the student (e.g. not on what they are supposed to really be learning or the work they are actually supposed to be doing but asked in ways that show how they are supposed to be treated and that the teacher is effective in conveying material), I think it would really start to show real gaps in how Georgia, particularly in a place like Dekalb (but this blog seems to reveal that Dekalb is not unique), is not spending its billions of dollars in the classroom to really educate the kids. The teachers that are really communicating with their students and who are really teaching them, relate really well to them and should not be threatened by their input (again, I’m really not advocating for them to be the sole input).
Reality
November 10th, 2011
8:18 am
I’ve said it before
If you want to be a customer as a student or parent then go to a private school. Students are not customers and should not be treated as such. They need to come to school, follow the rules and do their best to learn.
This customer service stuff is horse$^&* and is what is pulling our public system into the toilet.
Talk about entitlement mentality!
And for the record – 360 reviews are the cowards way of leading. Only weak willed and incompetent managers/administrators hide behind that “share the blame’ nonsense.
Truth in Moderation
November 10th, 2011
8:37 am
@reality
“If you want to be a customer as a student or parent then go to a private school. Students are not customers and should not be treated as such.”
Yes. If they home school or use a private school, they should no longer pay property taxes or SPLOST. I’m sick of the government schoolers’ “entitlement mentality!”
Red Herring
November 10th, 2011
8:39 am
so we can’t tell what the kids have actually learned by testing but we can by letting the kids put smiley faces on an evaluation. this is not an evaluation but a popularity contest. test the kids going into a grade and coming out of that grade to see what they have learned. we all had teachers in school who were good and some were bad but that didn’t necessarily coincide with the ones we liked and didn’t like. this is taking Ga. Gain to a new level. it didn’t work in state government and it will not work in the classroom. we shouldn’t be running a popularity contest but instead finding out who’s really doing their jobs.
Beverly Fraud
November 10th, 2011
8:49 am
Will our blog moderator ask the resident geniuses at DOE why, if it is appropriate for a STUDENT WHO CAN’T READ to read a survey and rate a teacher, based on what they CAN’T read, why doesn’t the DOE push for allowing teachers to evaluate administrators?
Is it not a fair and legitimate question? And if it is, and our blog moderator won’t ask it, is it fair to ask if our blog moderator’s willingness to ask tough questions is mitigated by her desire to have unfettered access to Matt the Mouthpiece? (Apologies for not knowing his last name)
Why do you get the feeling an AJC reporter might be willing to ask this question, but an AJC commentator seems unwilling?
Reality
November 10th, 2011
8:58 am
@ truth in Moderation (what in the world does that mean anyway? People like you can only handle a little truth at a time?)
Get over yourself.
Those of you that whine about ‘paying for other’s kids to go to school’ need to realize a H3!! of a lot more tax money goes to house the inmates that the uneducated kids will turn into.
Man up and quit whining about your little bit of tax money that goes to improve things for all of us! You all are pitiful!
I am so sick of the people that think they shouldn’t have to help out the country or others in any way as long as they get theirs.
Talk about entitlement mentality – you all are just as bad as the people that make their living in the welfare line. The heck with everyone else as long as I get mine.
You get to live in the grandest country in the world and all you can do is whine about contributing a few dollars here and there that might help someone else out.
What a sorry, sorry attitude.
Reality
November 10th, 2011
9:00 am
To parrot others on these blogs — If you hate the American Way and out government so much then please leave – Mexico awaits
Reality
November 10th, 2011
9:01 am
our government, not out government – apologies
Dr NO / Mr Sunshine
November 10th, 2011
9:07 am
The teachers who are subject to this latest nuttiness need to think about this grading program, finds its weaknesses and exploit said weaknesses to the “Nth” degree.
Play the hand you are dealt and double deal your superiors who are in cahoots with others, regarding this latest round of stupidity.
NY Teaching Vet
November 10th, 2011
9:14 am
I was evaluated by my students when I was student teaching in 5th grade (YEARS ago). The questions were pretty simple. One I remember was, “My teacher speaks with a voice I can hear and understand.” Another was, “The teacher helps me when I have a question.” And, “I improved my score from pretest to posttest in this unit,” or something along those lines. And “My teacher has all materials ready for the lesson when we start.”
There was a comment section as well. Those were the best. “She wears cool clothes,” and “I loved when we did the outside scavenger hunt to classify leaves,” both came from the same student. My favorite was, “She cares.”
My professor took it all with a grain of salt; it was another piece of the puzzle in my evaluation.
Colonel Jack
November 10th, 2011
9:19 am
@ Judy … Please tell me what districts allow teachers to rate administrators. That doesn’t happen ANYWHERE, as far as I know.
Truth in Moderation
November 10th, 2011
9:36 am
@Reality
“You get to live in the grandest country in the world and all you can do is whine about contributing a few dollars here and there that might help someone else out.”
LOL! Isn’t that the DEFINITION of entitlement mentality?
If you really care about this country and want prosperity for most (nothing is 100%perfect) please support the one candidate promoting this ‘GET OUT OF DEBT FREE CARD”, Ron Paul!
http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/14-reasons-why-we-should-nationalize-the-federal-reserve
As far as my blog ID, it was inspired by the AJC, as in:
‘After a comment I had made on the computer it said, ” Your comment is awaiting moderation”. LOL!
I enjoy double meanings. Your usage would be, “The politician’s speech was truth in moderation.”
BTW, Governor Ventura is already on his way to Mexico….
http://www.mediaite.com/online/jesse-ventura-loses-tsa-lawsuit-threatens-to-run-for-president-andor-flee-to-mexico/
Bell Curve
November 10th, 2011
9:49 am
There are some students for whom learning is not a priority and there are some who work hard and just can’t seem to do much better than average. It has always been this way. The “Bell Curve” is and always has been valid. Let them rate teachers, this too shall pass.
swarovski
November 10th, 2011
10:19 am
Just where do these folks get this stuff?
Truth in Moderation
November 10th, 2011
11:23 am
The secret history of the “smiley face”……
“Ball reported that he spent about 10 minutes designing the smiley face, and he was paid $45 for it. This was the only profit that Ball ever made from his most famous creation.”
http://www.ideafinder.com/history/inventions/smileyface.htm
Sadly, story of the smiley face is the story of many excellent, but under compensated teachers.
Freedom Education
November 10th, 2011
12:02 pm
I am receiving over 1700 evaluations from my students and it is worth 40% of my overall observation. How come there is no talk about opting out? Did this option disappear? How much of my instructional time will I have to use to implement happy face time?
Ms. Art Teacher
November 10th, 2011
12:12 pm
Personally, as an educator, I find the idea of getting feedback from my students helpful and informative. I frequently perform “feedback” tasks in class in both formal and informal manners to gauge engagement, interest etc. etc. At the same time, I am concerned about the personal attitudes of students towards teachers. A popular teacher would, no doubt, score high on the evaluations and a non-popular teacher would score low. However, those scores would not reflect whether or not those teachers were quality or sub-par; instead, it is more of a “do you like this person” test. I can see from the evaluation questions, that attempts have been made to prevent this. . .But, students are still learning to think and evaluate information for themselves. For most of these questions, they will revert to their emotional response to the teacher. And, that, (in my opinion) is problematic.
Dr NO / Mr Sunshine
November 10th, 2011
12:16 pm
Ms. Art Teacher
November 10th, 2011
12:12 pm
LMAO…you are an Art Teacher. You might as well be dog-catcher or janitor.
“Now class, today we have a choice of finger painting or pasting cardboard together. Which would you all rather do? And Timmy please dont rub the paste in hair, again.”
Dr NO / Mr Sunshine
November 10th, 2011
12:21 pm
“Sadly, story of the smiley face is the story of many excellent, but under compensated teachers.”
OH ABSOLUTELY!! BRAVO!!
Truth in Moderation
November 10th, 2011
12:45 pm
Let’s rate the companies who actually run this country….
) -: $ ) -: $ ) -: $ ) -: $ etc., etc.
Next time, give US the $700 billion and let the banks experience EPIC FAIL!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/wall-streets-resurgent-prosperity-frustrates-its-claims-and-obamas/2011/10/25/gIQAKPIosM_story.html?hpid=z1
Teacher
November 10th, 2011
1:10 pm
To the person who wrote, “Anyone who thinks that teenagers can effectively provide formal feedback on effectiveness of teachers has not worked with the current generation of teenagers. Everything is about me, me, me, and me.”
I have been working with teenagers as a high school teacher for most of the past decade, in affluent and Title 1 schools. In both places I find them to be some of the most inspiring, honest and articulate people on earth. Even if we take the later part of your statement as fact, it actually is all about them…that’s the point of supporting student learning. It’s not about you or your content. However, check out this report on volunteering and civic engagement in the U.S.:
http://www.nationalservice.gov/about/newsroom/releases_detail.asp?tbl_pr_id=534
One of the key findings:
- Older teenagers (ages 16-19) have more than doubled their time spent volunteering since 1989.
From the report…
“We are encouraged that emerging studies consistently show increased volunteering by young Americans. If supported properly, we may be on the cusp of a new civic generation,” said Robert T. Grimm, Jr., Director of Research and Policy Development.
AS FOR THE TOPIC AT HAND: If you don’t think students should have a meaningful voice in all aspects of schooling, including teacher feedback protocols, why are you working with kids? The idea that a teacher would feel threatened by their students is baffling. If you fear kids and what they might say about you, that’s a problem that speaks to some deeper issues. Getting along with and being in tune with what kids think about the classroom experience is half the battle!
Clueless
November 10th, 2011
1:13 pm
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/10/opinion/kristof-girls-just-want-to-go-to-school.html
Is it really the teachers? How many of our students want an education this badly?
Digger
November 10th, 2011
1:15 pm
Many kids hate math and take it out on the teacher. Check out the turnover rates of math teachers. This will make it even worse. Somehow we were doing it right 40-50 years ago. I wonder what the difference is?
Dr NO / Mr Sunshine
November 10th, 2011
1:34 pm
“- Older teenagers (ages 16-19) have more than doubled their time spent volunteering since 1989.”
So these older teens are easily conned. Whats your point?
Hall Mom
November 10th, 2011
1:41 pm
I remember evaluating all of my college classes and instructors at the end of every quarter. This isn’t new. It’s a necessary feedback. This allows the instructors to improve their weaknesses.
AMD
November 10th, 2011
1:56 pm
Let students evaluate teachers. There are too many incompetent teachers in both private and public schools. Is there anything wrong to hold our teachers accountable?
2nd grade teacher
November 10th, 2011
2:57 pm
I am a good teacher…but with all this new teacher evaluation stuff…I think I might be done. I’d much rather stay at home with my kids than subject myself to this crap.
Dr NO / Mr Sunshine
November 10th, 2011
3:01 pm
“Let students evaluate teachers. There are too many incompetent teachers in both private and public schools. Is there anything wrong to hold our teachers accountable?”
Oh yeah. That way you can blame the school, teacher, govt etc anyone except yourself for awful parenting.
Children evaluating teacher is silly. College classes well sure that makes sense butt other than that is ridiculous. I suggest we begin diverting funds from education and begin the construction of more prisons because that is where your children are going.
HS Public Teacher
November 10th, 2011
3:31 pm
AMD – If students are allowed to “evaluate me” then I will stop instruction and throw parties every day. Then, my “ratings” will be great and I will become the great teacher that you want me to?????
sloboffthestreet
November 10th, 2011
4:34 pm
If you’re happy and you know it STOMP YOUR FEET!
Jezel
November 10th, 2011
7:37 pm
Maureen…You are really sickening.
ScienceTeacher671
November 10th, 2011
8:25 pm
The irony is, the more we focus on the teacher as the root of the problem, the fewer good teachers we will have. A major problem in recruiting/retaining good teachers is the lack of respect for the profession, and another is the endless mounds of paperwork and documentation now required, which take time away from planning and teaching.
John
November 10th, 2011
8:28 pm
Ok, i didn’t read every comment, but I did read a good many and while I do see the teachers side of this (No I am not a teacher) I can’t agree with their stance. I believe as I am certain most do that teachers are under paid and under appreciated, however, they should be held accountable in their jobs as any employee. How that is done is the question and why not try this. All the teachers worried about their ratings being manipulated by students fro fun or or worried about vindictive students is BS. With any survey you will only get back about 10% and of those you can weed out the ones that are not objective fairly easily.
My question to teachers is if the students have no input to how you are teaching other than through a common assessment test that is than manipulated as was the case in Atlanta schools than how would you suggest a fair assessment of your teaching abilities be done? This may not be perfect but it is a start and if students can speak or rate objectively without fear of reprisal you might be surprised at how honestly a student will actually rate you.
Which leads me to my final point and question of how do you approach a poor teach (not just my childs comments or our opinions but that of many others in this teachers class) without fear of retaliation in the form of grades et al. We did speak with this teach, then meet with the teacher and administration and the situation in this class continues to worsen. I know this is a little off topic but seems somewhat appropriate.
As a final thought I would think a teacher would want to know from their students how they were doing and not just at the end of the year but throughout as you would be able to adjust to various learning styles with different teaching styles to reach the most kids. Without feedback there is no way to effectively teach our kids.
d
November 10th, 2011
9:01 pm
I just wonder where this thought that as I teacher, I am not accountable to anything came from.
Blaming messenger
November 10th, 2011
9:03 pm
@Jezel: I don’t always agree with Maureen but why is she sickening for reporting what the state plans to do? She’s a journalist, not a policy maker. She’s not making the survey. I appreciate her keeping us informed. No one else tells teachers anything. BTW, I think the smiley faces are great – and I teach second grade. My kids will also circle all of them and add a few of their own.
Jennifer
November 10th, 2011
9:48 pm
At the end of the semester I always asked my students what was working well and what needed to change in regards to content, presentation, discipline, structure, etc. Then I actually changed what I did in my class and had conversations with the students about it. I don’t know why educators are afraid of feedback. If you do what is best for kids, you have nothing to fear. So if you are griping here, maybe it is because you have something to fear….
Beverly Fraud
November 11th, 2011
4:47 am
@Jezel: I don’t always agree with Maureen but why is she sickening for reporting what the state plans to do? She’s a journalist, not a policy maker.
@Blaming granted “sickening” is strong language. But Maureen is not STRICTLY a messenger. She tries to influence debate, not so much by what she reports, but what she DOESN’T report or to the point what she DOESN’T ask the DOE.
Has she asked what SPECIFIC steps the DOE will take to prevent administrative RETALIATION as we saw in APS? (Rather than deal with that, she actually advocated the person at the helm, Beverly Hall, should remain in place for the “stability” she provided)
Has she asked what SPECIFIC steps the DOE will take to have some LEGITIMATE checks and balances for teachers?
Will she ask the DOE if they are comfortable with the fact that FUNCTIONALLY ILLITERATE persons, MENTALLY DISABLED PERSONS, persons with SEVERE PSYCHOSIS, persons with SUBSTANCE ABUSE ADDITIONS will all, if the DOE has their way will help determine the PROFESSIONAL FATE of teachers as long as they fall under the category of “parent”?
Has she asked how the DOE will take steps to SUPPORT teachers in matters of discipline? (No, she came on this very blog and said discipline isn’t a “pressing issue”)
This isn’t “delivering the message” this is SHAPING the message. Maureen appears to have shied away from asking the VERY tough questions that should be asked of the DOE. Is it not fair then to ask if this is in exchange for the unfettered access to the DOE? Does she “hold back” in confronting the DOE in order to maintain a cozy relationship with them, to continue to get “the inside scoop”?
I don’t know, but I would challenge you Blamingthemessenger or for that matter ANYONE else to make a case the above questions are not indeed fair AND legitimate questions.
Rebuttal?
As to smiley faces; you are really OK with having your PROFESSIONAL FATE determined by children filling out surveys they don’t even understand?
Jezel
November 11th, 2011
6:24 am
If a story like this one is to be covered…then tell us who initiated it..their names. How much it cost.How to contact these people.
Maureen thinks this is a novel idea. What would be novel…would be the AJC’s coverage of the real reasons that the quality of education in Ga. is at rock bottom and why it has been so dismal for so many years.
We have been hearing about how bad the teachers are for some 20 years now. Has kicking the teachers improved anything? NO.. And it will not improve anything for the next 20 years.
Maureen would serve the state well if she asked the tough questions and pursued the answer….Questions like…What happened to misappropriated money from HOPE…why has class size increased…who benefited financially from the whole language approach in the teaching of reading…who benefited financially from the integrated math program. Both of which _are and were terrible failures. Why does the state spend more on the department of corrections than it does on public schools.
This smiley face article….really?
www.honeyfern.org
November 11th, 2011
6:40 am
I am all for teacher evaluation, just like any job.
The difference, though, is that kids and their achievement are moving parts. They are not a static sales quota or a productivity measure. There are many factors in why they may or may not do well, and the kids change every year. Are there certain things that all good teachers share? Yes. Can a good teacher do those things and be positive that they will work? Nope.
Classrooms produce people, not potholders or armchairs or reports. People are volatile and changing, and this is why a truly objective system of evaluation is very difficult to create. If you have never been in a classroom as a teacher, you quite literally have no idea what you are talking about and aren’t really qualified to judge the responses these proposed evaluations are getting, especially as they relate to keeping a job.
Beverly Fraud
November 11th, 2011
6:44 am
The question Jezel is, will she ask those questions and thus risk the cozy relationship and unfettered access she has with the DOE?
If the AJC prides itself on being a “watchdog” one would think she may have to ask some TOUGH questions that may even lead at times to an ADVERSARIAL relationship with people like Matt C (spokesman, apologies I don’t remember his last name)
There are “pseudo-tough” questions, then their are REAL tough ones like Jezel points out. Is our blog moderator willing to ask them? I don’t know; perhaps our blog moderator can give us some examples to show that she is indeed willing to.
Proof in the pudding, as they say…
Observer
November 11th, 2011
11:07 am
@ Jezel and Beverly Fraud. You seem to be confusing Maureen’s role as blog moderator with that of an investigative reporter, who indeed should ask those tough questions.
A blog, by definition, is an online log of people’s opinions on a given subject. A good moderator chooses a topic controversial enough to get people riled up and writing, makes sure that the anonymous entries aren’t obscene or libelous or racist, and sits back to monitor what people write in. Many of you here have complained that Maureen seems to choose a lot of negative topics about teachers, but those are the ones that get you blogging!
Jezel
November 11th, 2011
11:30 am
How about topics that generate positive solutions instead of the tired worn out topics that are destructive and demeaning to those who…DO TEACH something.
We need serious dialogue about why Ga. schools are at the bottom and have been at the bottom. Don’t think it takes to brain surgeon to figure out that teachers are not the problem.
There are too many relevant topics to waste time with nonsense.
Ole Guy
November 11th, 2011
11:54 am
Don, is one to understand that you place enough confidence in 14-to-18 year olds to render MEANINGFUL evals? Tell you what…next time one of my pilots has difficulty on an FAA check ride, I’ll send him right over to the cabin attendant training school for “guidance”.
I realize there are many who feel that my somewhat pointed comments originate from the “safety” of an armchair. People, believe what you will…I WOULD NOT OFFER ANY EMPLOYER THE PLEASURE OF MY LABORS UNDER SUCH DEMEANING CONDITIONS. As a professional, I expect to be treated as such…THERE IS VERY VERY LITTLE FLEXIBILITY ON THIS ISSUE.
Ole Guy
November 11th, 2011
12:12 pm
When an employer kicks (or even ettempts to kick) me in the professional spheroids, I WILL, HAVE ALWAYS, and, for the remaining years of my work life, WILL address such actions in absolutely no misunderstood terms. Say what you will about “armchair” comments. I am thoroughly convinced that, much to my dismay, the teacher corps is comprised of cowards…you have consistently allowed yourselves to be kicked around…over the years, it’s been one thing or the other: moronic career-devastating “evals”, layoff days during which you see fit to come into the “office” for gratis work (lest you anger the powers that be), etc, etc, etc…now this; KIDS, and their “thoughtful” feedback on YOUR performance, having a direct impact on your careers. Give em’ all straight “A” s and you simply can’t go wrong; don’t forget to bring lots of candy to class; you’re guaranteed to make the esteemed award of teacher of the week/month/year…perhaps even of the decade. You’ll receive all sort of recognition from the smily-face hypocrite b _ st _ rds who’ll…at the very first sign of fiscal woe…fire your six for some trumped-up whatever.
Go ahead, teachers, keep on taking this poo poo; keep on emboldening the powers that be to treat you like dispensable light bulbs. IT”S FOR THE CHILDREN.
Jaye
November 11th, 2011
3:41 pm
Let’s have speeding motorists rate the police who stop them and children rate parents who make them do their chores and homework. I’m not against job evaluation. I’m just against unqualified, biased job evaluation. We can’t always give kids what they want. Children of any age rarely know what is good for them and even more rarely want it. Students’ ability to rate teachers will be no more accurate than their ability to rate their parents. You should listen to what kids, especially teenagers, say about their parents.
Observer
November 11th, 2011
8:35 pm
@ Ole Guy, 12:12 pm. “You’ll receive all sort of recognition from the smily-face hypocrite b _ st _ rds who’ll…at the very first sign of fiscal woe…fire your six for some trumped-up whatever. Go ahead, teachers, keep on taking this poo poo…”
Still writing that risque, street-talk type of lecture, I see. Teachers hear it all around them in school from ill-bred teenagers–why do you think it will impress them here?
If they came in to work gratis during furlough days last year, it was because the students were the ones who would be hurt by their absence in not getting the classwork. They should be congratulated for being professional, not scorned.
And what are they supposed to do about evaluations anyway? The students will be evaluated whether the teachers like it or not.
hello.life
November 12th, 2011
10:21 am
LOL. What BS.
Brenda
November 12th, 2011
7:10 pm
Teaching is not a business. It is an art. It is subjective, and creative and difficult to evaluate because what is beautiful to one critic may be ugly to another. I teach first grade, and in general I hear that my students love me. I am their caregiver and ambassador and helper and source of knowledge. I also have to dole out grades and punishments that are appropriate. I generally have students with high test scores, and because it has been noted that I am talented at challenging high-achievers with creative projects and higher levels of problem solving, I often start the year with students that have already shown acedemic talent. I am sure I would score well on these evaluations, but my extremely gifted team mate, who works with students who were struggling in kindergarten, might need to worry. She has an amazing inventory of strategies for working with students who are frustrated with reading simple texts, phonics, number sense, and following simple directions. Her end of the year test scores are never as high as mine, but the gains made in her classroom exceed those in mine. I can’t think of a fair way to evaluate us both because our jobs are so different even though we are both teaching the same standards, and giving the same standardized tests. I certaintly don’t think it should be left up to our students.
deblegs
November 13th, 2011
12:03 am
Retirement is looking sweeter everyday hated to leave last year, but glad I did after all I am hearing from friends. I am enjoying returning to the classroom as a sub.
I really get to teach and this is the only thing I wanted to do for 30 years. But everything is about politics one way or another and these evaluations are just another example. I feel sorry for the wonderful chance teachers are losing to do great things and for the children who will never know what they have missed. Great teachers continue to step out and ignore the politics. I witnessed that this week in a second grade classroom, but this women could do anything and she will not continue to have unprofessional request disturb her life, and just like the teacher above will find a way out !!
I was told recently by a county leader it was all a balance money vs. education…. sad comment on the importance we really put on our children’s future.
Warrior Woman
November 14th, 2011
3:23 pm
Why is this demeaning? There is no inherent reason that teachers should feel demeaned by this type of review. It’s called a 360 degree review, and it is a VERY COMMON evaluation tool in other professions. At my company, every manager is subject to one annually, and every employee at least once every three years. This means my subordinates, my peers, and my management (both my immediate supervisor and up the food chain 2 more levels) get to evaluate my performance. I welcome the feedback – it shows me my strengths and weaknesses much better than an evaluation limited to my immediate supervisor.
@JT – YES! Teachers, administrators, and students that interact with administrative and support personnel should be able to evaluate them as well.
Ole Guy
November 14th, 2011
5:44 pm
Observer, thanks for bringing to light my “street talk” style of communication. I must agree, it is not (always) in keeping with the “tea and crumpets” manner in which many of the hot-button issues are discussed within the pages of this fine blog section. However, as the famous (or infamous) WW II Gen George Patton once observed (paraphrased), “When I want my words remembered, I say them loud and dirty”.
I see these issue as a direct threat to this Great Nation…kids who can’t spell, perform simple arithmetic without the aid of electronic intervention, gain enough self confidence to withstand the pressures of growing up, and to simply learn to stand upon their own feet and statr assuming responsibility for themselves. These are issues which have existed since Adam and Eve; every generation has somehow managed to face these challenges, overcome and prevail, yet, from what I read and observe, we see the beginings of a generation which appear to “throw in the towel”; give up, suck their collective thumbs, and curl up in the fetal position. You can paint that picture any politically-feasable way you wish, but at the end of the day, it’s nothing but horse poop. The politically correct out there point to all sort of roads; all manner of addressing these issues…AND THEY”RE ALL DEAD END ROADS. There are simply no easy answers; no magic bullets. We can discuss the issues, and the potential solutions in kings’ English, the language of Alter Boys, or the double talk of legislative politics at it’s best. In the end, it’s all just smoke-filled coffee house crap. The sooner people realize this truism, and begin to contemplate the fact that the solutions to these issues is NOT wrapped in palatable cookies n’ cream responses, the sooner we just might see a little progress. These issues, contrary to what appears to be public empathy, will not simply go away, magically solved by social osmosis. You won’t pray them away, nor wave foo foo dust in their general direction.
Have a good day!
RBN
November 14th, 2011
7:27 pm
Maureen, asking teachers to trust the DOE is a real stretch, but First, a raise? what raise..haven’t seen one in years. I am making 8% less than I did in 2002 thanks to furloughs, local supplement decreases, and loss of locally paid insurance. Gee, I know you are thinking, “You’ve still got a job..right.” Yes, one I have done for 35 years and still love, but let’s get some reality here. Private sector jobs saw an average of 3% raises this year. Educators..none or a decrease.
How will we attract and retain the best and brightest to teaching? The data is pretty conclusive that we are not attracting the top scholars to education jobs. It is also conclusive that we already lose nearly 50% of those we do attract. So what do our leaders come up with? A “theoretical” evaluation system that they acknowledge may not be effective or valid, even if it is just a “small” portion Is putting this new system in place going to help? NO! not unless you change the barriers to attracting and retaining: poor pay, ineffective administrators, and lousy working conditions. Fix those first. Couple that with persuading our parents and students that education really does matter more than the ball field and the mall and perhaps we can make progress.
Given the pathetic leadership from the legislature and the governor and the chaotic DOE of the previous administration over and I am not an optomist.
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