State will ask students for feedback on teachers: How well did teachers know the material?
I participated in an education panel Friday night at Mercer University, sharing the stage with three impressive people, Philip D. Lanoue, Clarke County superintendent, Daundria Phillips, assistant principal of the Gwinnett Online Campus, and Kristin Bernhard, education policy adviser to Nathan Deal.
Since we both arrived early, Dr. Phillips, a Mercer grad, and I talked about her online high school in Gwinnett, which offers both a full-time program and supplemental courses for students enrolled in brick and mortar schools.
The online high school is a full-time, diploma granting high school that appeals to students who want flexibility — including kids who are performers or athletes. The virtual high school opened in August for students.
Students in the online school must meet all county graduation requirements. Students can work online any time of the day or night on their courses. The school has 100 full-time students, but expects to grow as parents and students in Gwinnett learn more about it and it expands to the middle school grades next year and the upper elementary grades in 2013. Phillips said about 40 percent of their full-time students are interested in acceleration.
While the material is taught online and students can do their work at midnight if that suits them, there are set times when students must be at their computers with their teachers and classmates. (If students miss these synchronized sessions, they can go back and listen later.) In addition, science classes include mandatory in-person labs, and all critical testing is done in person.
Students can even take PE online. Students wear Polar Heart Rate equipment provided by Gwinnett Online Campus to verify that they worked out, and they have to be within and/or above their target heart rate zone for 70 percent of their workout. So, it’s not a breeze by any means.
Once the panel began, Dr. Lanoue of Clarke County made several interesting comments, including that the observation that schools that talk mostly about discipline make that their priority, while schools that talk about academic performance end up making that their main focus.
He also said that he was not a great teacher in his first years: “I was so bad. I would have fired myself,” he said.
He and I had similar comments on accountability. He noted that Clarke County’s graduation rate in 2004 was 50.2 percent; for African Americans, it was 35 percent. “There wasn’t high-stakes anything,” he said.
According to GOSA report card, the system’s graduation rate is now 70 percent.
But Lanoue said that states and feds are attempting to use tests for high-stakes purposes for which the tests were never intended, including evaluating teachers and determining whether students can move ahead. (The panel talked about the Move on When Ready concept, and whether passing a test is enough assurance that students are really ready to move ahead, especially in light of the comments by many teachers that the CRCT is a minimum skills exam.)
Kristin Bernhard, education policy adviser to Nathan Deal, talked about the teacher evaluation system that the state will pilot in the 26 Race to The Top districts. One component will be student feedback on teachers, although Bernhard said it will not be a matter of asking, “Was this teacher nice?”
Questions will be more substantive, she said. While teachers advising the state on evaluation designs were wary of the idea initially, they were more amenable once they saw the questions, which will query students on whether the teachers knew about the material they were teaching, said Bernhard.
“Once they read through the questions, the teachers said, “I would really love to know what my students feel about this,’” said Bernhard.
Bernhard also talked about the state’s career ladder, which is being structured to keep good teachers teaching by providing prestige and advancement within the classroom setting. “We don’t want you to become an assistant principal if your passion is teaching,” she said. So, Georgia may see such distinctions as teacher specialists, learning specialists or teacher leaders.
This led Lanoue to note that passionate teachers should be assistant principals, principals and superintendents, saying that he still sees himself as a teacher.
It was a great panel and it was run by Mercer students. (It was the most organized panel I’d ever done.)
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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63 comments Add your comment
the prof
November 5th, 2011
6:02 pm
Understand what you are getting here. Any disgruntled student who earned a D or F in your class can write deplorable unsubstantiated comments about you and these will be used in your evaluation. You are taking it for granted that whatever a student writes in these evals is the gospel about you.
Maureen Downey
November 5th, 2011
6:08 pm
@the prof, I asked about that but Kristin said that they will be able to sift through comments and rule out the malcontents just mouthing off. I raised the issue of Rate Your Professor,which often draws unhappy students who didn’t show up but still figured they’d get an A.
If the state asks probing enough questions, it can probably get around the malcontents as those kids would be the ones to simply blast the teachers without giving any real thought.
Maureen
Really?
November 5th, 2011
6:20 pm
To the prof…If you get only one or two such evaluations from a student…no big deal. But, if you get anything more than 5% of students giving you terrible reviews than something is up. Why be fearful?
Paddy O
November 5th, 2011
6:47 pm
these were done in college, but it never seemed to make an impact – practically window dressing. If the student is required to provide identity on the comment evaulation sheet, will you get honest answers? Why not simply put a camera in the classroom record randomly lessons covered, and have a peer review see if the teacher is any good. the end of class test should indicate this, though.
Smiley
November 5th, 2011
7:21 pm
Saw the example of this. Lower grade teachers will be rated by a smiley face or a frowny face by students.
Not too demeaning.
Fericita
November 5th, 2011
7:53 pm
“Once the panel began, Dr. Lanoue of Clarke County made several interesting comments, including that the observation that schools that talk mostly about discipline make that their priority, while schools that talk about academic performance end up making that their main focus.”
This seems like a chicken or egg type thing: which really came first? Schools that talk mainly about discipline have to, because they have out of control students.
…..
“Once they read through the questions, the teachers said, “I would really love to know what my students feel about this,’” said Bernhard.
Wanting to know how your students feel about something is not the same as wanting to be paid based on how those students feel. I’ll remain suspicious of Race to the Top until I see the actual breakdown of pay for performance.
ScienceTeacher671
November 5th, 2011
7:54 pm
Just listened to part of a program on CNN. The reporter said that many middle class schools are failing, the parents don’t think their children are learning enough, and the students have to take remedial courses when they get to college.
Then you have the students who do nothing all 9 weeks, and then the parents want the teacher to give the child all the class work they didn’t do so they still have a chance to pass. You have the student who skipped class the day a test was given and forged an excuse, but the parent (after denying the child was absent) lies for the student and validates the excuse so that the child doesn’t get a zero on the test that was missed. You have the child who plagiarizes a major project, gets a zero, and is thus failing the class, so the parents go to the BOE to get the zero overturned or the grade weightings changed.
And then those same parents complain that the students aren’t learning anything?
Mike Honcho
November 5th, 2011
9:48 pm
To Really? . . . You asked “Why be fearful?”
I’ve lived through the GPS math curriculum. I remember about 5 years ago when a group of approximately 50 math teachers from several counties in north Georgia began training for the secondary math curriculum. We were able to work on performance tasks and watch videos of math teachers “facilitating” students in learning math. (Funny how they only had videos of elementary and middle school teachers facilitating)
Later in the training we were introduced to the state’s “Braintrust” (think o’brother where art thou?) in developing the new math curriculum. Just about every problem that has now been deemed to diffiucult to overcome without major change was brought up by the secondary math teachers in the room. One teacher actually brought up the possibility of Georgia adopting a “national curriculum” that would make the current (at the time) change seem like a waste. After all was said and done, we were told that math had been taught incorrectly for years and by following the state’s frameworks we could finally start doing the right thing by our students.
After seeing what I’ve seen I would be afraid….very afraid.
Beverly Fraud
November 5th, 2011
10:26 pm
If the state asks probing enough questions, it can probably get around the malcontents as those kids would be the ones to simply blast the teachers without giving any real thought.
Beverly Fraud
November 5th, 2011
10:28 pm
“If the state asks probing enough questions, it can probably get around the malcontents as those kids would be the ones to simply blast the teachers without giving any real thought.”
Maureen is banking on the state of Georgia to design something intelligently?
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Beverly Fraud
November 5th, 2011
10:37 pm
So students who don’t have a clue about the material, because they aren’t INTERESTED in having a clue about the material, will now rate teachers as to how well they know the material?
That’ll make teaching even MORE attractive, I’m sure.
And we have people at the state DOE who claim to be “concerned” about retaining good teachers?
Really?
Beverly Fraud
November 5th, 2011
10:42 pm
“This led Lanoue to note that passionate teachers should be assistant principals, principals and superintendents, saying that he still sees himself as a teacher.”
And just how many classes a day does Dr. Lanoue teach?
justbrowsing
November 6th, 2011
12:49 am
Interesting- and I agree Science Teacher 671- at what point are students made to tow the line here. If they are not willing to complete the assigned tasts that will assist in their understanding of the material- does that affirm that a teacher is ineffective should THEY score the TEACHER lower? What about the neighborhood parents who get together and decide to complain because a teacher “gives too much work” ? This is BS. Maybe evidence that a teacher is testing the barometer of his/her classes can be required, but not without the data that supports why students are probably performing below level to begin with (i.e, absent, failing to make up work, low scores on tests, not completing projects). More should be considered. They might hate the teacher because they employ a more rigorous instructional practice than others. Is it fair to rate them low for this?] and to attach this rating to the teacher? I would think not.
Tom
November 6th, 2011
1:15 am
This won’t work, either. How are students in general supposed to know whether or not teachers know the material when the students are in a class for the purpose of learning the material? Since students are trying (or not) to learn the material, they are in no position to comment on a teacher’s knowledge of the material, nor can they judge how well the material is being taught. I say this as someone who has been an educator for decades. If a class of students do not have much trouble with the material, perhaps because it is watered down, and the students as a group make good grades, then they will say that they have a knowledgeable teacher who is a doing a good job. That’s how it works.
need change
November 6th, 2011
7:45 am
I think student evaluations are a great idea. I would love it if my children were given a chance to provide formal feedback on their teachers. Perhaps the teacher who spent 5 weeks of a 9 week course showing videos might put in a bit more effort. My children know when they have a good teacher – even if they don’t like the teacher personally. They also know the difference between a teacher who is focused on keeping them busy and a teacher who is focused on keeping them learning. Certainly, student feedback needs to be taken with a grain of salt, but students are in a great position to tell us whether or not they learned anything from their course. Did the teacher assign meaningful homework or was it busy work? Was class time used effectively? Was the class challenging? Was the pace of material too fast, too slow, just right? How effective is the teacher at managing discipline in the classroom?
cris
November 6th, 2011
8:21 am
I don’t mind being “judged” by a high school student who is 1) actually interested in choosing to take my class – not stuck in there by couselors who have “nowhere else to put him/her” 2) is present and takes an active part in classroom discussions and activities 3) have enough self-discipline to not disrupt the lesson or those that are trying to take part in the lesson…after all, THOSE are the students I have in mind when I get frustrated by disruptive. lazy students, administrators who want you to jump through hoops, parents who want you to be “rigorous” yet complain when their child doesn’t make an automatic A. THOSE are the students that keep me going…THOSE are the students who make it worthwhile to be a teacher and I am not afraid for them to ‘rate’ me….now the ones who don’t fit that description…of course I don’t want them rating me! Are they really in a position to let the state of Georgia know if I’m a good teacher or not? Yet, magically it seems, the state is going to be able to winnow out the malcontents…right – this will be another end-run around our pitiful little tenure law and enable administrators to get rid of teachers they don’t want or like or even to give the football coach’s wife a position……rolling of the eyes….
God Bless the Teacher!
November 6th, 2011
9:00 am
I think to each time I eat at a fast food establishment that provides feedback cards at my table. I always wonder if the few I have filled out (both positively and negatively) make it to people who are able to change things, or did the one who took all of the cards out of the box dump them, read them before dumping them, or share comments with other workers then dump them. Are the student evaluation questions going to be worded such that a biased answer is almost guaranteed? Will the questions be as awkwardly worded as many evaluations I’m required to fill out at professional learning sessions? Who is writing the questions? I do hope it’s not the same people who wrote the GPS math curriculum or state tasks! Certainly, questions will be composed by folks who haven’t taught in the classroom for at least 5-10 years (sarcasm). Better yet, please let the same questions be asked at all levels K-12 so I’ll know if I’m smarter than a 5th grader!! (more sarcasm)
Mike Honcho
November 6th, 2011
9:35 am
How many hundreds of people will the state hire ( to take from the education budget) to develop this program?
Maureen Downey
November 6th, 2011
9:40 am
@Mike. Not sure about hundreds but Kristin said there is a teacher — former Marietta teacher — who was hired to work with the state on every step of the development of a new evaluation tool under RTTT.
Maureen
teacher&mom
November 6th, 2011
9:42 am
How much will this cost and who will get the contract to develop the surveys and breakdown the data?
How many central office personnel will be hired to handle the paperwork and data? Please follow the money.
As an aside…I survey my high school students at the end of the year. They do offer valuable feedback. I sincerely doubt the results of a “canned” survey will provide me the information I need to improve my classroom instruction. And the benefit of my own “home-grown” survey? It’s completely free.
teacher&mom
November 6th, 2011
9:59 am
Student feedback can be powerful. Ideas like this should be implemented without attaching them to a paycheck. For this to be effective, it has to be all about improvement and not punitive measures.
I also like this quote:
“We don’t want you to become an assistant principal if your passion is teaching,” she said. So, Georgia may see such distinctions as teacher specialists, learning specialists or teacher leaders.”
I think this is a step in the right direction. I’d love to see a system where teacher leaders have one foot in the classroom and one foot in leadership.
I’d love to teach 2 blocks a day and then switch over to teacher leadership & administrative duties for the rest of the day. I’d love to have more time to observe the teachers in my department, sit down with them to offer feedback, discuss best practices, analyze data, offer support for classroom management…etc.
teacher&mom
November 6th, 2011
10:05 am
let me add….and be given control of staff development for my department. Give me the freedom to asses the needs of my teachers and then quality staff development that is based on our unique needs….not the district’s.
ScienceTeacher671
November 6th, 2011
10:49 am
teacher&mom, great questions & suggestions. And I wonder how much money is wasted on flavor-of-the-month silver bullet staff development that is abandoned as soon as the next “flavor” is introduced?
Cobb Parent & Teacher
November 6th, 2011
11:29 am
teacher & mom – amen! I hate that the only place for me to go now to go “up” is out of the classroom.
Concerned and Curious
November 6th, 2011
11:38 am
Maureen mentioned the presence of Dr. Phillips (GCPS Online Campus AP) – I wonder how she feels about the student feedback portion of the teacher rating system. If students don’t actually interact in person with teachers (granted periodic synchronous online sessions provide SOME – albeit limited interaction), how can students realistically rate these teachers? Will there be some OTHER version of the rating instrument?
Also, what about teachers who work with primarily at-risk populations versus those teaching honors or gifted students? There ARE differences in the way various groups of students view school – and teachers as part of the system.
And what of the blended classroom settings popping up across the state in which an online curriculum is used in a brick-and-mortar setting. Whose “knowledge” of the curriculum will students be judging – the online courseware or the physically present teacher?
Just hoping the process is WELL thought out and THOROUGHLY planned prior to implementation with results that might penalize or discourage good teachers from persevering with those “hard-to-work-with” students many of us love (even if it sometimes takes a while for them to realize we’re on their side!).
Prof
November 6th, 2011
12:40 pm
I agree completely with “the prof,” Nov. 5, 6:02 pm. What checks and balances are in place to assess the assessor?
In addition– how will the students complete the assessment instrument? Surely not in the classroom with the teacher being evaluated distributing the evaluation, for that compromises the unbiased objectivity of any results. Online to assume anonymity? Then how do you know it is actually the student fulling out the answers, and not someone else such as an angry classmate who has been allowed access by the indifferent student?
How do you assure a reliable response rate? Usually, anything below a 50% rate is considered unreliable. When completing the evaluation takes 10-15 minutes or more, many students simply skip the entire thing. It’s only those who hate the teacher or love the teacher who will fill out the evaluation form. There’s no other built-in incentive for the student to spend the time doing this…..which brings us back to the observation of “the prof.”
Prof
November 6th, 2011
12:51 pm
Also– If teachers are going to be evaluated by their students, then CERTAINLY administrators should be evaluated by their teachers.
Tony
November 6th, 2011
1:13 pm
Things like this will continue to lead us away from the true factors that affect quality learning and effective teaching. Why? Because this is another attempt to focus attention on a component of teacher evaluation that is completely of the the control of the teacher, and, in fact, creates the potential for more of a popularity contest.
Many teachers with high expectations frequently get negative feedback from students, parents and administrators because “they expect too much from the children.” Learning requires a lot of work on the part of the students and teachers. For students to learn, they MUST put in the necessary effort to master the material. They must read. They must write. They must solve problems. They must do homework. They must meet grading requirements. Students who become disgruntled because they do not produce and are graded accordingly should not have a voice in evaluating the teacher.
Public HS Teacher
November 6th, 2011
2:33 pm
When did our society value the opinions of children so much?
Remember the old saying? A child should be seen and not hear. There was a reason for this saying. Children do not have the knowledge, the maturity, etc., to form any opinion of value.
This is not an insult to children. It is simply because their brain has not fully developed. It is as simple as that.
Now, the State of Georgia wants to place the value of the opinions of these undeveloped brains at such a place as to put the job of a teacher on the line?
Are you kidding me?
Public HS Teacher
November 6th, 2011
2:37 pm
I know of a TREMENDOUS high school teacher. She is very strict and has very high expectations of her students. She does not accept sloppy work or late work and demands that students try 100%.
Students in her classes generally hate her. They call her b$#@# and othe really horrible things.
However, her students learn. They score highest in the State end-of-course tests (top 99% in the State).
And, on a regular basis, these same students return to her two years later and thank her for being a tough teacher.
Now – what score will those students give her at the end of the year? What do you think?
This will quicken the pace of running TREMENDOUS teachers from Georgia classrooms.
Lee
November 6th, 2011
3:39 pm
Ever hear of customer surveys? Businesses use them all the time. If you want to get better, it is best to heed the words of your customer.
Many businesses also employ performance appraisals not only from management to their direct reports, but also feedback from the direct report to their manager. My company sends out customer surveys, both internal and external.
I think public schools should utilize surveys and assessemnts such as this. Parents should provide feedback regarding elementary and middle school teachers, high school students should provide feedback on their teachers, and teachers should provide feedback on their immediate administration.
Public schools ignore the sentiments of their “customers” at their own peril. Twenty five years ago, there were two private schools within driving distance of my hometown, now there are at least 20 or so. The public have been clamoring for vouchers, charter schools, magnet schools, etc, etc, for years.
There is a reason for that. …and the number one reason is that many parents are fed up with the “product” that their public schools are providing.
The big question teachers and administrators should ask themselves is “If my parents had the choice, would they continue to send their children to my school, to my class?”
If the answer is no, then Houston, there’s your problem….
Beverly Fraud
November 6th, 2011
3:52 pm
A TYPICAL case of educrats speaking out of both sides of their mouth.
How so?
It’’s the EXACT same people, those who want children to evaluate PROFESSIONALS who will then turn right and and say those children cannot be held responsible for their defiant,disruptive behavior because “their brains haven’t developed yet”
Is there ANY profession, that is so inundated with dogma as teaching, and yet so COMPLETELY unaware of it?
You want to REALLY fix teaching in Georgia. Talk to the ones who FLED.
Dr. John Trotter.
November 6th, 2011
4:01 pm
Maureen, I just had a respone to Arne Duncan captured by Mr. Filter. The length could be the problem. Please release the comment. Thanks!
Dr. John Trotter
November 6th, 2011
4:22 pm
Let’s try posting this again…
[After watching a snippet form an interview of Arne Duncan on CNN a few minutes ago -- before hastily turning the channel before I hurled -- I fired off the response below. These educrats make me want to chew tobacco, if I may quote my rather spicy grandmother, "Nannie" Frazier.]
I just saw U. S. Secretary of State Arne Duncan being interviewed on CNN about why our public schools are behind (if they actually are, once the failing urban schools are removed from any equation), and this man doesn’t have a clue. He still thinks it’s about longer days and doing away with summer vacations. Ha! Our problems (as demonstrated by many indicators) are in the failing urban schools. In these schools, the discipline is almost unheard of. The teachers are blamed for the abject failure of the parents and their children. The children bring very little if any motivation to learn to school. The parents want to blame everyone but themselves for their failure and their children’s failure. The school administrators at these schools goose step to this tune, blaming the teachers. The teacher can only teach the children, not learn them…just like an attorney can only defend a client, not acquit the client…or a physician can only treat a patient, not heal the patient.
Ignorance is something else, and it appears that our U. S. Secretary of Education is embarrassingly ignorant about how public schools operate and about the importance of motivation to learn. Motivation to learn is a social process or cultural phenomenon. Many of our public schools and most of our private schools are doing quite well in this country because the students are highly motivated to learn and because the administrators at these schools would not think of tolerating defiant and disruptive students and allowing them to remain in the classes or in the schools and would not entertain the notion that irate and irresponsible parents would be permitted to berate and humiliate the teachers with impunity as they impassively watch these crazed parents pummel the hardworking and dedicated teachers.
What’s wrong with a certain sector of our public schools, Arne Duncan? I will tell you, and allow me to be quite blunt and specific: (1) Defiant and disruptive students who bring little or no motivation to learn to school; (2) Irate and irresponsible parents who neither model exemplary behavior nor hold their children accountable for proper conduct and hard work at school; (3) Angry and abusive administrators who are weasels and booger-eaters when it comes to standing up to the defiant and disruptive students and their irate and irresponsible parents but who instead blame the teachers for the students’ refusal to learn; and (4) Systematic cheating on standardized tests, teaching the tests, and narrowing the curriculum by making the tests themselves the curriculum (or, curricula). In this crazed desire to “close the achievement gap,” the schools have become testing factories, and the educrats have tried to turn the teachers into automatons. The scripted curriculum and cookie-cutter teaching methods have made once exciting times excruciatingly boring. This, Mr. Duncan, is why the dropout rate is so high (in addition to the inexplicable removal of vocational education in our schools).
The problem with our failing schools really doesn’t have a thing to do with longer school days or eliminating summer vacations. The curriculum has become super boring. The teachers are forced to teach while wearing pedagogical straight-jackets (especially at these failing schools), the students are not motivated, classroom discipline has almost become an oxymoron, and the parents and administrators have an inordinate penchant for blaming the teachers in order to salve their own consciences and to protect their own hides.
http://www.theteachersadvocate.com
http://www.georgiateachersspeakout.com
Dr. John Trotter
November 6th, 2011
4:23 pm
I guess that the ole Filter doesn’t like me today. My post still won’t post, if this makes any sense. Have a good day, folks!
Dr. John Trotter
November 6th, 2011
4:24 pm
I have an idea…the article can be found at my personal blog >>>
http://www.georgiateachersspeakout.com
cris
November 6th, 2011
4:56 pm
The big question teachers and administrators should ask themselves is “If my parents had the choice, would they continue to send their children to my school, to my class?”
@Lee…as I posted above, I don’t have a problem with the students who fufill their “half” of the education equation filling out surveys about my performance as a teacher. I do have a huge problem with the students AND parents who won’t even try to fufill the minimum requirments (being present & prepared), much less their half (being attentive, actively engaging, putting forth effort) filling out a performance survey on me. I’ve taught in high school long enough to know that some students AND parents will say/do anything to deflect the simple fact that THEY are to blame when learning doesn’t happen in some cases. I hope I don’t sound as if I think I’m the perfect teacher, because I’m not and I regularly speak to my students about what is and isn’t working in my room to get their feedback, but when a teacher asks a students why they aren’t participating, putting forth an effort, completing work, etc. and the general answer is “I didn’t think I would REALLY have to do anything in here”, well, no, I don’t care to be evaluated by that student or that parent…
Prof
November 6th, 2011
5:39 pm
@Lee. But the customers have chosen to frequent the business VOLUNTARILY. That is why they’re customers.
As “cris” at 4:56 pm points out, that’s not true of many students. And there isn’t any way of determining the unwilling and disruptive students, and certainly not a way of keeping them from filling out the teacher evaluations.
Lee
November 6th, 2011
6:24 pm
@Prof & Chris, I don’t have a choice but to use Ga Power, but they still send me a customer feedback survey. You send it out to ALL your customers and look for trends and common/theme responses.
The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly – if you will.
God Bless the Teacher!
November 6th, 2011
6:46 pm
@Lee…additionally, voluntary response is considered biased results in any survey. Generally the ones most passionate about something will be the ones to respond. In the student/parent survey situation, the ones who will probably respond the most are the ones who already have a beef against public education.
Inside view
November 6th, 2011
6:52 pm
@ Prof, teachers evaluate principals all the time. Turnabout is fair play. Good teachers should not be afraid of feedback. They give it to students all the time. Even students who have an F or D can tell if a teacher cares about them is interested in helping them.
cris
November 6th, 2011
9:06 pm
@Lee, I think the point you are missing is this…take your power company analogy – yes, they send out surveys because they really want to know how the customer perceives the service they are providing. But take the customer who is habitually late about paying their bill, gets their service turned off and has to repay to get it turned back on, then complains bitterly about how the power company has treated them unfairly. No one at the power company should be fired or have their pay cut because of this disgruntled customer, right? That’s the point I’m trying to get across – I’m not afraid of students who may not like me personally, don’t care for my subject or have difficulties and I don’t mind hearing how I could improve to engage those students – I just don’t want my pay/position to be based on a student who lays his/her head down and sleeps 3 out of 5 days after being asked time after time to wake up, get to work, etc. and then they blame my skill as a teacher when they do poorly come report card time.
Veteran teacher, 2
November 6th, 2011
9:47 pm
For most of my career, I was the teacher that everyone requested their kids to have. People would yell at the principal if their kids got into another teacher’s class. That all started changing about six years ago. It started with a couple of parents of special ed students. I had great results with special ed kids in the past, but these two parents didn’t want their kids to work or be held to any reasonable standards of work.
Gradually, other parents began to request that their kids not be in my class. The reasons? I am too hard, I give too much work, I assigned detention to those that turned in late work, I require students to work the entire class period, tests are too hard, and I actually fail people.
Regular readers of the blog will note that each of those items is usually on the lists of those that want to tell teachers how to avoid the criticisms that wind up on this blog. I have not changed much over 30+ years, except to get better from experience. I am still very much the teacher that everyone wanted their kids to have in high school.
So, what has changed?
Almost everyone says that they want rigor. They want teachers to hold kids to standards of excellence. They want teachers to use all of class time, and to use it wisely. They want kids to be prepared for the next level, regardless of what it is. Many bloggers say that teachers should hold students to deadlines, and not accept late work.
The fact is, many people who say these things are lying, or they want these things for everybody else’s kids.
You cannot have it both ways. I can assure you that the lazy, give me the rewards whether I do any work or not crowd will take an evaluation system like this and figure out how to manipulate it for their advantage.
If you don’t believe any of my statements are true, try listening to the some of the other teachers who regularly post on this blog. We are all pretty much saying the same things. Oh, and there is no system of accountability that you can come up with that is more stringent than the one that I place on myself every day!
Lee
November 6th, 2011
9:52 pm
@Chris, re: “…a student who lays his/her head down and sleeps 3 out of 5 days after being asked time after time to wake up, get to work, etc…”
Which is an example of a much deeper problem in public education.
Beverly Fraud
November 6th, 2011
9:52 pm
Maureen went to great lengths to praise the “candor” at the recent teacher forum.
Now without criticizing any of the participants, is it not still fair to ask if any of their responses where even REMOTELY close to the candor displayed, and MUCH needed, in Dr. Trotter’s 4:22 post?
Even if it’s a DIFFERENT voice, we are going to get ANYWHERE in public education, unless we start having REAL candor, instead of the politically correct candor we have now.
Arne Duncan came to Atlanta twice to prop up Hall KNOWING FULL WELL the largest cheating scandal in America’s public educational history was unraveling right before his very eyes.
He came to save Hall, NOT the students of APS. Yet do you think any of the panelists would have referenced this, when it comes to talking about “teacher quality” and Duncan’s LACK of gravitas to discuss such matters?
We really don’t want the truth, do we?
MM
November 6th, 2011
10:10 pm
Maureen,
I’m sorry but your “Getting Schooled” column is so depressing to read over a period of time. The same “solutions”–student evaluations, more time on studies, new curriculum…–are constantly circulated by the lastest “expert” out to sell a book or otherwise advance theur career. Nothing really changes, of course, but the discourse weems to be entertainment for at least a few of us.
The real problem is us. We, as a nation, as families, as TV watchers, do not really value education or any skill that does not make money. Monday Night football; then we see our values on parade. Dancing with the Stars (a show for the idiot class if there ever was one), NASCAR, country and rap music, now there are our values. Fighting back starts with parents that really care more for their kids to the extent they are willing to fix the real problem. Sixty years of thoughtless individualism and TV and effectively made us idiots. We must look beyond quick fixes to what we have let ourselves become–mindless consumers of crap both in our material greed and naive politics.
Mike Honcho
November 6th, 2011
10:30 pm
I totally agree with Veteran teacher 2. The scary thing is, every year the amount of laziness increases. Many students seem to believe that teachers are not allowed to give failing grades. Students who do little homework or study do poorly on tests and then immediately expect to take a retest.
Teachers (especially high school) who constantly accept late work and allow students repeated re-tests until they pass— you are not helping students. We need to hold today’s students accountable.
Public HS Teacher
November 7th, 2011
12:32 am
I give up. I will just quit teaching any content and give kids candy and parties every day. They will give me a good rating and I will keep my job.
There. Is everyone happy now?
Public HS Teacher
November 7th, 2011
12:34 am
@Mike Honcho -
Please understand that teachers DO NOT want to accept late and we DO NOT want to give re-test. These are practices forced on us by administation.
I keep saying on this school blog time and again – the problem has LITTLE to do with classroom teachers. It is the leadership!
Beverly Fraud
November 7th, 2011
6:05 am
“Many students seem to believe that teachers are not allowed to give failing grades”
Wrong Mike Honcho. Students KNOW that teachers, in many, MANY instances, are not allowed to give failing grades. Look at the recent AJC reporting on SYSTEMIC cheating at the high school level.
In fifth grade, the administrator says “Get them the h-ll out of here and let them go $##@ up the middle schools scores.
In eight grade, the administrator says “Get them the h-ll out of here and let them go $##@ up the middle schools scores.
And NOW you know why the high schools are the way they are.