AJC panel on education tonight: Candid and compelling. You should have been there.
I moderated an AJC panel tonight on education with terrific panelists; Fulton school chief Robert Avossa, City Schools of Decatur associate superintendent Thomas Van Soelen, Milken Educators Greg Ott of Fulton, Kelly Stopp of Gwinnett and Rachel Willis of APS and the Georgia Teacher of the Year Jadun McCarthy of Bibb, who is working with the state Department of Education during his reign.
Thanks to all of them for coming out on this rainy night, and thanks, too, to the audience members, including some Get Schooled readers and posters. Special thanks to the area school board members who attended.
I admired the candor of the teachers and the school administrators. This was my first exposure to Avossa, and I found him honest and sincere. I also thought that he reacted well to Fulton teacher Ott’s comments that he feared teachers were no longer being told just what to teach but how to teach, and that the drive for sameness in every classroom was leading to mediocrity. Avossa was not defensive, but attentive, and I was delighted to see the two men talking after the panel.
Kelly Stopp is a dedicated teacher who clearly is at the top of her game, and she handled one of the night’s toughest questions. After I noted her achievements with her English Language Learners — remarkably high scores — I asked whether those achievements should be honored with higher pay. She answered that her achievements with her students were not hers alone, and all their teachers contributed. She also asked whether it was fair to determine achievement by a single test score, noting that she has had times when students scored far higher than their abilities on the CRCT, and that these outliers spoke to the problems with basing teacher pay on student scores.
Rachel Willis of APS spoke about Teach for America, which is how she entered education. Yes, some teachers only stayed two years, but if they gave students a great two years and worked hard, why was that a problem? She was also illuminating on the use of data to drive instruction in her class.
Van Soelen made me think with his answer to my question about what to tell parents who feel like their child is stuck with the lesser of two teachers. He noted that a fifth grade classroom can appear to a lively place where kids are having a great time, but the material actually being taught in the festive atmosphere may be at a third grade level. It may be that the less lively class next door is where deeper, grade-appropriate learning is occurring, he said.
Jadun McCarthy, Georgia Teacher of the Year, may have been the most forthright of the night, a fact that led me to kid him later that DOE communication director Matt Cardoza will never let him travel without him again.
AJC ed writer Jaime Sarrio was tweeting comments from the panel. You ought to check all of them out @ http://twitter.com/#!/ajcschoolsK12
Among her tweets about McCarthy:
McCarthy: Said he’s seen people who shouldn’t be running car washes running schools.
McCarthy: I have worked for horrible principals. When they screwed up our building, they got another building. They can destroy a building in two years.
McCarthy: The overall issue isn’t how you became a teacher. It is what you’re doing as a teacher. Who cares if you came through TAPP or UGA?
McCarthy: I’ve never had a child ask me, “Did you go to teaching school?”
Again, thanks to all who turned out and to the panelists. Regular Get Schooler Ernest Brown of DeKalb was there and suggested another education panel focusing on classroom discipline. (If you get the AJC, check out Brown’s piece tomorrow on why you should support SPLOST. It is part of a pro-con on the issue.)
– Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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69 comments Add your comment
patrick crabtree
November 3rd, 2011
11:12 pm
Hate I missed it. Thanks for the honesty. Teacher bashing needs to stop. Failure is ALWAYS a leadership problem. It was said best when we don’t have the choice to teach, but are told, how, when, where, what to teach. We only follow what is directed for us to do. Is that our fault if the leadership’s plans suck? Yet WE get the blame. Look at the debacle in APS, in the classroom or Principal’s office? Now we, honest teachers, have to do additional work and paperwork to prove we are doing our job. Added burdens because of inept leadership. Those of us who ‘buck’ the system are the ones they try and do get rid of (many with good test scores). I am the outspoen one and the rumor has it that I am a ‘bad’ teacher who ‘can’t teach, yet, the very ones saying that have never been in my classroom.
Truth in Moderation
November 3rd, 2011
11:32 pm
After reading a sampling of Mr. McCarthy’s quotes, he would be a great fit for the Get Schooled blog!
Since he is such a great teacher, why is he working at the DOE this year?
Maureen Downey
November 3rd, 2011
11:36 pm
@truth, Because if you win Teacher of the Year, you travel the state on behalf of DOE for that year, working with schools and teachers.
Maureen
just watching
November 3rd, 2011
11:38 pm
I was going to make the same suggestion for another panel! Please do have one on discipline, behavior or classroom management, or whatever you want to call it…it comes down to how are schools dealing with students that disrupt the learning process for themselves and their classmates. And don’t forget to address how some educators (teachers and admins) perpetuate the behaviors rather than address them and support students in learning new behaviors.
just watching
November 3rd, 2011
11:39 pm
And thanks for the event this evening. Well done. And, yes, very candid.
Public HS Teacher
November 4th, 2011
12:13 am
Maybe I am cynical, but…. does anyone really think that the “leaders” such as Avossa would really (1) believe what Opp said and then (2) take any action to fix it?
The answer is no and no. Avossa works for the school board. The school board operates like politicans more concerned with getting re-elected than with educating the children or what goes on inside of the classroom. As long as the “numbers” look good, then they are fine.
The march to mediocracy (as Opp put it) will continue because the board is just fine with the “norm.”
The result will be the frustration of great teachers and then they will leave…. just as is happening right now in North Fulton. Those great teachers will be replaced by very average teachers happy to follow in lock step and to have a job.
The final ones to suffer will be the students. The extremely bright ones will not be challenged because the lessons are all the same and will be targeted to the “average” student.
But, hey! The board will be happy and Avossa will keep his job.
Lynn43
November 4th, 2011
1:15 am
Evidently, your Board operates differently than my Board. We hired a wonderful superintendent, and we do not micromanage.
Beverly Fraud
November 4th, 2011
2:03 am
…it comes down to how are schools dealing with students that disrupt the learning process for themselves and their classmates.
@Just Watching, this isn’t very likely to happen. You see Just Watching, there is what we call acceptable “candor” and then their is its far distant cousin REAL candor.
REAL candor is still the black sheep of the family as far as addressing teaching CONDITIONS.
Can someone name anyone more qualified to speak to the LACK of support and the reality of RETALIATION that teachers face in regard to disruptive, defiant, students, than say Dr. John Trotter?
Someone who is willing to be CANDID about it?
But that’s a “candor” I don’t think the AJC is quite willing to tackle.
Someone prove me wrong and say that, at the least, the audience was allowed to ask questions.
RobertNAtl
November 4th, 2011
5:01 am
I thought it was an excellent forum, and I very much appreciated the AJC hosting it and extending an invitation to me. The author of this blog, Ms. Downey, did a very good job moderating. The audience was allowed to ask questions. In fact, most of the time was used for audience questions, and the panel members were very candid in their responses.
Lib in Cobb
November 4th, 2011
5:29 am
My wife is a former Cobb County Teacher, a happy former teacher. Teaching once a noble profession is now nothing more than following the guidlines handed down from the county or school management. Whatever you do as teachers, don’t get creative in order to meet the needs of your students just follow the god damned instructions that come from headquarters. In addition to following the cookie cutter lesson plans that were written and decided upon by who knows who, the teachers in too many schools have to listen to the whinning parents a child who are threatening a lawsuit if their child is put into special ed or if they don’t like the IEP developed by those who know exactly the capabilities of that child. As soon as any parent uses the word lawsuit, the principal will knuckle under and the parent gets exactly what they want. Then comes the child or children who are so disruptive in the class it is the equivalent of hearding cats. The teacher is then required to track that child with written reports for months before anything can be done. There should be no wonder why there are so many unhappy teachers. I have not mentioned the financial aspects of teaching, any teacher will know immediately what I am saying and no futher expalination is required for them. To all the parents out there, if the teacher is asking for $2.00 per student for a special project, send it, if the teacher requires a permission slip for a field trip, sign it and send it. If the teacher communicates with you regarding a behavior problem with your child for the 11th time in six weeks, address it. If your kid has decided to break every pencil in the classroom there is a problem that needs to be addressed. If your kid can’t stay focused for longer than 45 seconds, there is a problem. If your 6 year old threatens the teacher with bodily harm, there is a problem. If your kid talks all day long , there is a problem. No one should wonder why there are so many teachers who are unhappy and right now they are stuck in a profession, that is not doing the right thing for the students. Cobb County has a new sperintendant, it looks like as I see it, “same girl different skirt”.
ScienceTeacher671
November 4th, 2011
5:53 am
Maureen, it sounds as if it was a great forum, and you’ve highlighted some very insightful comments.
anon teacher
November 4th, 2011
6:05 am
I truly enjoyed the panel. I thought the questions and answers were candid, insightful and honest. I drove well over an hour to get there and another hour home again (NOT including the horrible traffic) and I feel it was well worth my time. Thank you for allowing the audience to ask questions. Some of the questions weren’t easy to answer, but the panel did a great job. I hope you organize another roundtable soon.
Elizabeth
November 4th, 2011
6:15 am
Lib in Cobb, and Beverly Fraud are absolutely correct. I could not say it better. As for the question that the more happy the classroom because it looks like the kids are learning, that is also 100 per cent correct. The reality is that these” fun” classrooms were created to appease parents whose little darlings were bored and disruptive because they have been fed the nonsense that learning should not involve real work but should always be fun. Well, memorizing multiplication tables is NOT fun; neither is learning the rudiments of English grammar and usage ( my least favorite thing to teach but a necessity). Everything we learn and everything we do requires some work that is not fun ands some learning that must be done silently, by yourself. Reading is one such task. Reading the entire novel alound, either by students or by the teacher, does NOT improve reading skills. To read, you must READ– silently and by yourself.Then you must reread- again, silently– to comkprehend. Kids who have never been required to do any real work– brain work or any other kind– resent this and cause problems. This includes the majority of ADHD and EBD kids. As long as teachers have to put up this disruptive behavior as outlined above, NOTHING in education will change and good teachers will continue to leave.
Logic 88
November 4th, 2011
6:31 am
COMPETITION is the answer.
Apparently most on this blog believe competition works in all areas to improve the product EXCEPT education.
teacher&mom
November 4th, 2011
6:39 am
This was a great idea. We need similar panel discussions in every corner of the state.
Good, honest, discussions where the goal is improvement.
Ernest
November 4th, 2011
6:44 am
Thanks to the AJC for providing this forum and please don’t let this be the last one! Another point that was brought up was the need for strong leadership in the school house to help with evaluating talent and teaching. The comment made by Mr. McCarthy about his first principal providing ‘nourishment and encouragement’ as he was refining his craft was insightful. He attributed that to his continuing development and evolution as a teacher.
I also shared his comment about the principal setting the tone for the school with another teacher. They agreed and added that the principal sets the tone for each school. There was also frustration in that while most agreed that after providing assistance through professional development and coaching that teachers that did not ‘get it’ should leave the profession, what do we do for principals that don’t ‘get it’? Regretfully many are recycled to schools that may lack active parent voices or promoted to the central office. All in all, we should strive to unsure that we have both highly qualified teachers and great leadership in all of our schools.
East Cobb Parent
November 4th, 2011
7:24 am
An observation on Van Soelen’s comment regarding the two teachers, I felt he skirted the issue. Yes, two teachers could present material differently and the class that seems to be enjoying themselves may be doing below grade level work while a class next door is working above grade level but not as enthusiastically. As a parent I still would be able to recognize this and question why the easier class was not challenging the students more.
I would have liked if we could have asked follow up questions immediately after each answer given.
HS Public Teacher
November 4th, 2011
8:12 am
Logic 88 -
Your interjection about “competition” is wrong and misplaced. Please stop trying to push your personal agenda.
Thomas Van Soelen
November 4th, 2011
8:36 am
East Cobb Parent:
I believe the question centered around how a parent in the “rigorous” room could move his/her child into the “engaging” room. The points I made were to (1) consider what you as a parent consider to be quality, rigorous, and engaging, and (2) work directly with the teacher about your concerns.
Thank you for the opportunity. Despite the weather, the evening was well-attended and productive.
concerned
November 4th, 2011
8:43 am
@just watching
Seriously…teachers need to change student behavior. Where do you think they learned the behavior to begin with? Not at school, but at home!!! We, as educators, can post anti-bullying posters. positive behavior rewards, expected behavior, and all that jazz, all OVER the school and in the classrooms, have advisement programs to role play how to deal with situations, but it all comes down to what do parents do to change THEIR children’s behavior?
Maureen Downey
November 4th, 2011
8:48 am
FYI: Here were the kickoff questions for each panelist. But they took a lot of audience questions so the discussion was not limited to these areas:
Robert Avossa:
There is great debate as to what makes a great teacher. Read a research study once that suggested there is a magical quality, an unquantifiable factor. Are great teachers born or made?
Gregg Ott: I saw you teach, and you didn’t do magic tricks or jump on the desk, but you got kids excited and you got them thinking. What does great teaching look like to you? Conversely, what does not-so-great teaching look like and how can parents tell the difference?
Thomas Van Soelen: One of the surprises to me as a parent has been the disparity in teacher quality. You can have a highly effective teacher teaching next door to a highly ineffective teacher. And often, the parents in the classroom of the less effective teacher know the great stuff going on 10 feet way. What are their options if they are unhappy with the teacher?
Kelly Stopp: More than 90 percent of her students—68 percent of whom are English as a Second Language (ESL) speakers—passed the second-grade reading portion of (CRCT). For the past three years, more than 80 percent of her second graders posted reading scores that were at or above grade level. Should there be pay system in Georgia that rewards those exceptional results?
Rachel Willis: You came to teaching through Teach for America out of Smith College, describing it as a springboard. But there is controversy over whether these alternative programs create missionaries or lifelong teachers. Do you think these programs have a place and what is that place?
Jadun McCarthy: You were going to be an attorney, but were lured to the classroom by your former principal Ella Carter who asked you to give her a year teaching English at Northeast High School. What kept you beyond that year?
sirwinston19
November 4th, 2011
10:10 am
Having read all of the comments; our teachers, schools, lesson plans, administrators, etc, is in a mess! Nothing is more compelling is how our schools are ran; you have some that don’t want prayers in school, some want their child to have particular(s) over others; some want their children to be the olny ones getting attention, special that is; and it appear’s to me that no one knows how to operate our schools. To many hands in the cookie-jar, so the chliden merely going to school making it on their own. Teachers are being restricted, lesson plans are been uneffective; there is all of this talk about public, charter, private schools….but when you look at it, none of them are better than the rest of them. I know education starts at home, discipline starts at home, nothing will make any school(s) better than the other no matter what city, town, state, or even the district, schools are all in a big mess! How do we fix it and put it back on the right track?
John Konop
November 4th, 2011
10:55 am
In solving a problem we must first indentify key problems. And we must than focus on a solutions that help first solve the key problems. Finally we must realize no matter what we do kids will fall through the cracks.
Key Problems:
1) Drop-out rate
2) Students graduating with no skills for a job, ill prepared for higher education or GED.
Solutions:
1) Promote an academy tracking system for students like we are doing in Cherokee over the one size fit all failed No Child Left Behind policy.
2) Eliminate the irrational teach to the test score based system promoted through No Child left behind. Replace it with a pass fail system on competency similar to the bar examination, CPA……. The score improvement system creates irrational behavior.
3) Grade schools and teachers on graduation rates with skills for jobs and or placement rates into college.
4) Eliminate 20% of administrative overhead and put the money into the classroom by decreasing the irrational teach to the test tracking system via No Child Left Behind
5) Promote a co-op system in high school with the business community given students real work experience.
6) Consolidate administrative overhead between the high schools and colleges/trade schools and let them create requirements for graduation and or certificates. Joint enrollment style education should be the norm not the exception. Also resources should also be shared between 9-12 and higher education.
7) Promote use of the internet education to bridge gap via transportation issues.
Nothing I have suggested will solve the social problems schools inherit via broken homes, poverty………………… The school’s job is to provide opportunities not solve family and society issues. And by providing and focusing on opportunities that in itself will help future generations.
catlady
November 4th, 2011
11:40 am
The second grade CRCT is read to the students, so a high pass rate would not be unexpected, even among EL kids.
Janet
November 4th, 2011
11:43 am
You don’t by chance have any of this on video do you? I would love to watch it!
What I would have asked:
My house (in Gwinnett) is currently on the market, which provides me with a rare opportunity to basically choose my next school district for my 4 and 6 year old children. I started reading this blog about a year ago hoping to get some insight on what makes a “quality school” and a “good (or bad) teacher.” Reading this blog as pretty much scared the Bejesus out of me and made me terrified to send my kids to public school. It’s so hard to tell when, as a parent, you really only have access to the surface. I don’t want to base my decision on test scores alone, but it seems that no one (or very few) have the “right” combination of administration and teachers. What questions should I be asking? What should I be looking for?
It’s all very disheartening as a parent not in the education field. I feel lost. I don’t expect my kid to get “special” attention per se, but with all that I read on here and other education blogs and from my limited experience with public school, I feel like I have to fight for an education and make sure my face is at that school on a regular basis (I’m room mom) or else my daughter will fall thru the cracks in a class of 26 kindergarteners (North Gwinnett cluster school). BTW, I didn’t know until this year that Georgia abolished it’s class size limits. Who’s freaking brain child idea was that? It’s very frustrating. Forget about the war on drugs… I feel like I’m trapped in a war on education.
Beverly Fraud
November 4th, 2011
11:51 am
I see no comments about administrative abuse of good teachers by means of RETALIATION through the observation instrument, even though it is RAMPANT in systems like APS.
You think rampant retaliation MIGHT JUST HAVE an impact on “good teaching”?
“Acceptable” candor, yes? REAL candor? Perhaps not so much.
Hey Teacher
November 4th, 2011
11:54 am
Janet — I’m a parent IN the education field, and I was overwhelmed when we went searching for a new house/school district. I think we made a good choice, but ultimately it is my responsibility to support my child at home, regardless of whose class she lands in each year. And yes, 26 kids in one class is wayyyyy to many. I’m facing 33 in a 10th grade English class in about 10 minutes with only 30 computers (lab standard in our district) for a writing assignment. Maybe someone will be absent …
Connie Jackson
November 4th, 2011
12:47 pm
I attended the forum and really enjoyed it. While I wish it had been longer and we could have gotten more in-depth, it was an informative event and I enjoyed having some of my own beliefs challenged! I may have to do some research and reform my opinions and that is exactly what events like this should do, challenge us and make us expand our thinking about our passion/career, public education. Also, @janet, give me a call and I can tell you some great schools here in Cobb where you can still get a quality public education!
the good doctor
November 4th, 2011
2:52 pm
Maureen,
Okay I was their at the “round table” and I asked a simple question last night of the panel committee and I will pose it to the bloggers, “Do you feel that we (educators) know enough right now to fix schools that are broken? Do you think we need another program or more money from taxpayers to fix schools that are broken?” Dr. Avossa did not touch this question last night and Rachel Willis tried with all her heart to answer it but she is naive. I also said to them last night, “tell me the school district, and I will tell you were the struggling school is, which in essence, is where the struggling teachers are… why can’t we replicate success from one school to another, from one school district to another? Well?
Maureen said last night that pay for performance is coming to a school near you… guess what, teachers will just get jobs at school that consistently perform well or at schools that do not have a high poverty or high minority ratio or they will just teach P. E. (this is known as gaming the system)
Dr. Avossa will do well in Fulton, but if he really wants to exceed show me that you can have students in S. Fulton perform as well as students in N. Fulton (it can be done, but if he does it, he want have a job in Fulton for long). If Cheryl Atkinson really wants to show me she is good then have students in S. DeKalb perform as well as students in N. DeKalb (it can be done, but if she does it, she want have a job in DeKalb for long)
(I will give you a hint to the anwer of my question? What side of Fulton county does Dr. Avossa kids go to school (that is if he has school age kids)? What side of DeKalb county will Dr. Atkinson children go to school(that is if she has school age kids)? Maureen, if she lived in Fulton and not Decatur, what side of Fulton would her kids go to school?)
Ernest
November 4th, 2011
3:28 pm
the good doctor, I believe Dr. Atkinson’s youngest child attends a school south of Memorial Drive because of its proximity to where she lives.
In fairness, there are too many variables to provide an answer to your question. That has been part of the problem with education, thinking that we can simply replicate ‘programs’ from one school to the next and get similar outcomes. Each student is unique and they bring their unique life experiences to the classroom. Some students enter schools better prepared for learning than others. That’s why you hear so many educators wanting to use ’student growth’ as a measure instead of solely using the results of a standardized test.
There is no silver bullet with education. If there was, it would have been used long ago. It requires evaluating the needs of each student then providing rigorous instruction that puts them on the path for continuous learning. With some students, structure must be taught to help with this. We can succumb to the environment some students may come from and lower expectations because of that.
Lynn43
November 4th, 2011
3:39 pm
Janet, In which counties are you looking for a school?
the good doctor
November 4th, 2011
4:10 pm
Ernest,
My question pertained to replicating success? Why can we not replicate success from one school to the next? I also asked, why is it that one side of a county can have continous success and the other cannot?
Better yet, think about this, if I put all of the teachers from N. Fulton in S. Fulton schools would they get the same success? why or why not?
the good doctor
November 4th, 2011
4:12 pm
Ernest,
I think you need to re-consider your answer as it pertains to Dr. Atkinson youngest child and the school being attended? Better yet, if you really believe you can turn schools around, make the utltimate sacrifice, place your child in the worse performing school, yes?
mum
November 4th, 2011
4:20 pm
@the good doctor, as a parent yourself, would you put your child into the worst performing school in the county?
the good doctor
November 4th, 2011
4:55 pm
Ernest,
…programs help with success they are not why successful schools are successful.
Ernest
November 4th, 2011
4:55 pm
the good doctor, how to you measure success? What criterion do you use to determine whether a school is successful? I think a successful school is where there is a true partnership with parents and the community. Respect for educators is expected and if a child is out of line, the partners address it immediately. It is a disciplined environment that allows teachers to maximize time for learning. Though the needs and capabilities of each child may be different, teachers are able to help each child reach their own maximum potential.
What is a successful school to you?
BTW, Dr. Atkinson’s youngest child is a senior. I know the name of the school the child attends but will not provide it for sake of privacy. Just because a school is south of Memorial Drive, it is not a ‘poor performing school’. My children attended those schools and are doing quite well. I am an active and involved parent that holds those at the school accountable. In exchange, they know I follow up immediately on any concerns they might have. I supplement their school learning with many outside activities, trips and experiences. There are many parents like me that do the same for their children and have witnessed them succeed.
the good doctor
November 4th, 2011
4:58 pm
mum,
no, I would not… however, if I am going to take $245, 000 of the taxpayers money and claimed to be a person that can fix schools; put your words and your committement where your mouth is, what do you think?
the good doctor
November 4th, 2011
5:07 pm
Ernest,
Ok, on a whole (because there are pockets of successful schools in S. DeKalb) why don’t we have partnership with parents and community on a consistent basis in S. Dekalb like N. Dekalb? You are avoiding the question because though your child may be doing good in his/her school it is reason you chose it, instead say, McNair?
the good doctor
November 4th, 2011
5:08 pm
thank you for not publishing the school of the superintendent, i was not asking that you do that…
the good doctor
November 4th, 2011
5:09 pm
Ernest,
For conversation sake, a good school is the perception everyone believes it is, like those that your child attend or maureen children attend, yes?
AJinCobb
November 4th, 2011
5:10 pm
@Janet,
I’d say you’re not trapped in a war on education, just a war on public education along with all other public services. The prevailing political mindset in Georgia appears to be that government and public services are an anathema, and we should all be buying our own from private sources. That will provide better quality at lower cost and motivate the poor to get it together and afford their own too, since the only reason they are poor is because income redistribution via taxation and social programs make poverty comfortable.
This is not what I think (in fact, I think it’s nonsense) but I’m not originally from around here and my objective at this point is to move somewhere more sane, to my way of thinking. Meanwhile, good luck with the public schools. I’m so grateful my child will graduate this year, the beneficiary of a very good education in East Cobb public schools. But it’s clear to me that the majority of our politicians and the majority of voters – the well-heeled ones, anyway – are doing their darnedest to ensure that a quality public education won’t be available for any longer than they can help it.
middle school man
November 4th, 2011
5:28 pm
@Beverly Fraud I think that the new teacher evaluation instruments that are being piloted by the RT3 districts actually help to protect good teachers from the the RAMPANT use of the observation instrument for retaliation. There are so many more ways and opportunities for teachers to present the case that they are doing the job and doing it well. It is no longer dependent upon one drop in observation and a Duties and Responsibilites memo. It creates more work on the teacher and the administration, but that work levels the playing field and gives the teacher some power over the evaluation. I am not saying Class Keys is perfect, but is defnitely built with giving teachers the benefit of the doubt through evidence they can collect and present. In addition, the Leader Keys tools that go along with the Teacher Keys make it tough to hide poor leaders as well.
Beverly Fraud
November 4th, 2011
6:37 pm
More work for the teacher? Exactly what we DON’T need. Let teachers TEACH, not fill out paperwork.
What’s needed is CHECKS and BALANCES. Let a principal face a vote of confidence from staff. That ought to put a little hitch in the retaliation giddy-up.
Mind you, can’t hamstring the administrator. But set a RIDICULOUSLY low threshold-say 45%.
Now if at the end of the year, and administrator has lost the confidence of a full 55% of staff, is that not a clear-cut sign they most likely aren’t a good fit for THAT particular school?
In the same way we expect teachers to “engage” students, (at a MUCH higher threshold than 45%) is it not fair to expect an administrator to “manage” a staff in such a way that at least 45% of the staff is in support?
What GOOD administrator would oppose that? (And isn’t that what principals always fall back on? “If you’re a GOOD teacher, you have nothing to worry about”?)
Mr. Crabtree, Dr. Trotter? Care to attack/defend the merits of the above?
Ernest
November 4th, 2011
7:21 pm
the good doctor, you should ask others why there is not consistent levels of partnership within their own school clusters. Again, it comes down to how you measure this. For the most part, I believe my children received a quality education along with their classmates. I collaborated with the parents of my children’s classmates to ensure ‘high expectations’ was more than a saying but a reality. This can easily be replicated at any school but it takes those a commitment from the students and parents to the teachers and principals to ensure this happens.
It’s not what I believe but what you believe. It comes back to what do you call a successful school?
Dr. Monica Hooker
November 4th, 2011
7:53 pm
I enjoyed the panel last night and would love to see the next one involve teachers from schools that have not made AYP but have demonstrated substantial progress. Mr. McCarthy stole the show! He was refreshing and did not spew the political rhetoric we hear so many times during conversations about education. His statements about shoddy leadership in a school and how some superintendents are only in it for the paycheck were so correct. In addition, he directly addressed the fact that educational resources and opportunities are not equal among public schools when others danced around it. I wish every school had a Mr. McCarthy.
I noticed two other things during the discussions:
1. Mr. Avossa kept talking about his conversations with young teachers and how he likes to know what they think of the system and current practices. What about the veteran teachers? Does he invite them to be part of the discussions or does he think that students benefit more when the classroom instructor is of youth?
2. One of the parents from the Atlanta Step Up or Step Down group constantly shook her head in agreement when one of the speakers talked about teachers being dedicated, teachers spending extra time at school and when only the best teachers should be in the classroom. However, when Mr. McCarthy spoke of inequality in resources and administrators/superintendents needing to be replaced if they ruin schools and are focused on the money, she was more interested in what was on her iPad then the truth filled conversation before her. I would invite her to visit (unannounced) any of the schools on the south side and then would like to know if she still believes the system equally allocates resources across the district.
Teacher Attendee
November 4th, 2011
8:36 pm
I was there last night, and really enjoyed the evening. It was refreshing to hear teachers in the spotlight saying the same thing that teachers everywhere feel. I also appreciated Mr. Avossa and Mr. Van Soelen for being honest about what they are seeing.
I would like to point out that Mr. McCarthy’s statement about leadership came in response to a question about equality in schools, and that he led into it by saying, “You can have a school full of Milken winners, but a bad principal can destroy it in two years flat.” Leadership is very important.
Mr. Ott’s comments about the drive for sameness leading to mediocrity were very good, also. It reminds one of Harrison Bergeron.
I would also like to post a link to a video that I think brings a very interesting viewpoint to the discussion on merit pay and teacher incentives. It is a little long, but well worth it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc
Thanks again to all the hosts and participants.
William Casey
November 4th, 2011
9:15 pm
I’m sorry that I was unable to attend this panel. I hope that there will be others. I would like to hear some discussion on “in what ways can private sector business principles be usefully applied to public education and in what ways not?”
long time educator
November 4th, 2011
10:12 pm
@good doctor,
The real difference between good and poor schools is the raw material (kids), It is hard to make a great apple pie with bad apples. I do not think it would help to take good teachers from an upper socioeconomic school and send them to a low performing school. They are good teachers in a good environment; but that does not mean they could handle the environment in the poor school. The best success stories in turning around poor performing students involve taking over some of the parenting role for kids who have lousy parents. Boarding schools or schools that have the kids come early, stay late and come back on Saturday have had some success in providing a structured, disciplined environment that these students lack. It is not really about poverty, because there are parents who are poor, but value education, whose children succeed. This is a social problem, not an educational one.
Teacher Attendee
November 4th, 2011
10:36 pm
I also appreciated the gentleman who said that he was working on getting corporations involved in education. He recognized that teachers have a hard job, and asked the panel how corporations could help. I think it was significant that, in responding, none of the panel mentioned money. Money can certainly be useful, but it can also be a distraction.
the good doctor
November 5th, 2011
12:07 am
Long time educator
now you are hitting on something, Ernest would not go there… we all know where the bad schools are at and where the not so good students are at but we are dancing around the issue… If you know where the not so go schools are at then do something about it? I tell you why because we don’t want to, we will pacify the problem but really don’t want these schools to change.
South Fulton want change as whole nor will South fulton as whole…