Guest columnists: Cobb, Fulton and Forsyth schools lose luster in global comparisons
When held up to global standards, even Georgia's top systems fall short, according to two researchers. (AP Images)
A guest column by Jay P. Greene, the 21st Century Professor of Education Reform at the University of Arkansas and a fellow at the George W. Bush Institute, and Josh B. McGee, the vice president for public accountability initiatives at the Laura and John Arnold Foundation, suggests that high-performing metro Atlanta suburban systems are not as good as we may think they are when compared to other nations.
This piece runs on the Monday education page, but here is an early look at the column, which focuses on Fulton, Cobb and Forsyth schools:
By Jay P. Greene and Josh B. McGee
Education reform efforts have focused almost exclusively on improving big city public school systems. The problems of Atlanta Public Schools are well-known to everyone. What is much less understood is that many of our affluent suburban districts are also badly in need of improvement.
Suburban school districts may be performing much better than their urban neighbors, but they are barely keeping pace with student achievement in other developed countries.
This surprising discovery of sub-par outcomes in many affluent suburbs came to light as part of a large project we recently completed, called the Global Report Card. We compared student achievement in virtually every one of the nearly 14,000 U.S. public school districts against the performance of students in a group of 25 developed countries. All of the results are available at www.globalreportcard.org, so people can look up their own and other school districts to see how they are doing relative to students overseas.
If they looked up Atlanta, they would confirm their suspicions that student achievement is dreadfully low. The average Atlanta student is performing at the 23rd percentile in math relative to students in other developed countries. That means that 77 percent of students in a typical developed country would be doing better than the average student in Atlanta.
But if they looked up Fulton, Cobb or Forsyth schools, they might be surprised to see that those districts, despite being among our most advantaged and presumably best public school districts, are struggling to do better than the average student in other developed countries.
In Fulton, the average student is only at the 37th percentile in math compared to students in our group of 25 developed countries. In Cobb, the average student is only at the 37th percentile. And in Forsyth, the average student is only at the 61st percentile.
These results are better than in Atlanta, but they are probably below what people might expect for affluent suburbs. If students from those suburbs want to compete with students from all over the world for top paying jobs in our increasingly globalized economy, they need to be near the top of these international comparisons, not near the middle.
It is true that reading results in these suburban districts are somewhat stronger, but math provides a more meaningful comparison. Math tests are more consistent across countries than reading, and math performance is much more predictive of economic success.
The scarcity of excellent public school districts is not unique to the Atlanta area. Out of the nearly 14,000 U.S. public school districts, only 6 percent have average student math achievement that would place them in the upper third of global performance. And among the school districts serving the 50 wealthiest places with populations over 50,000 — places not so tiny as to be inaccessible — the average math percentile is only 52.
Suburban parents need to awake from their complacency. Education reform is something that is not only needed for large urban school districts. Most suburban public school districts also need to improve. And who knows? If we get buy-in for serious reform among suburban elites, perhaps it will not only help suburban districts get better, but it may also finally produce the improvement urban districts have long sought.
When politically powerful and influential suburbanites get behind dramatic education reform for everyone because they think their own children need it, we may see gains that decades of lip-service and half-hearted reforms have failed to produce.
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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68 comments Add your comment
mountain man
October 21st, 2011
6:26 am
I would like to know if we are comparing apples to apples? Are we comparing, for example, all Cobb county students against only the cream of the crop who remain in school in China? Also, Cobb county has lots of different areas. I am sure if you compare Walton to some other high schools in Cobb, you will get a big difference. Again, as I have said before, it comes down to the quality of the student and the parents, and most likely tied to their SES.
no surprise
October 21st, 2011
6:46 am
Considering that our 180 day school year is 20 to 40 days shorter than is typical in other developed countries, no one should be surprised that our students are well behind. One might also look at what it takes to qualify to become a teacher in Europe compared to the US. Our education majors generally are not the highest achieving students.
Ernest
October 21st, 2011
6:52 am
mountain man raises a question we should ask every time we see stories like this this, how was the comparison done and what students were in the comparison. We see this every year when comparing SAT scores across states. Despite the College Board’s bet attempts to explain that these comparisons are not meaningful, most people still do it.
teacher&mom
October 21st, 2011
6:57 am
Sponsored by the George W. Bush foundation…hmmm…..doesn’t that raise a few red flags???
At least one or two????
maybe???
Given the fact that NCLB is probably the LAST Bush policy to have any supporters…..ya’ think that just maybe they are grasping at straws to prove they were at least “right” about education?
Familiar tactic.
Scare the bejeevers out of folks to push through ideology. Hit the last supporters of public education. Convince them their high-performing suburban schools stink. Plant a seed of doubt in their minds. Suggest their child is being shortchanged and won’t be successful in a “global” economy….not because it is cheaper to hire overseas…that has nothing to do with it. Instead, it has everything to do with their suburban public school.
A little “shock doctrine” never hurts
And unfortunately….it works like a charm for these folks
Lee
October 21st, 2011
7:27 am
Yawn… Two rules: 1) Look at who commissioned the study and what their underlying agenda may be and 2) a quick look at how they interpreted the data may also provide input as to the validity of the study.
Don’t know much about the GW Bush Foundation. But….. the administration who passed the NCLB would be suspect in any study about education, IMHO.
Statistics 101, in a broad based population such as Global Education, you must first stratify the data to ensure you are comparing “apples to apples”. Demographic do come into play here and any study that does not consider these factors is suspect.
————————————
That said, this study should be a wake-up call to those who see nothing wrong with allowing unchecked third world immigration (invasion?) into this country.
Dr NO / Mr Sunshine
October 21st, 2011
7:49 am
I agree. Its Bushs fault.
sloboffthestreet
October 21st, 2011
7:55 am
Perhaps if some would take the time to read what the nice man said you would see you don’t need any apples to understand. But by all means, continue to circle the wagons!
“The scarcity of excellent public school districts is not unique to the Atlanta area. Out of the nearly 14,000 U.S. public school districts, only 6 percent have average student math achievement that would place them in the upper third of global performance. And among the school districts serving the 50 wealthiest places with populations over 50,000 — places not so tiny as to be inaccessible — the average math percentile is only 52.”
“Suburban parents need to awake from their complacency. Education reform is something that is not only needed for large urban school districts. Most suburban public school districts also need to improve. And who knows? If we get buy-in for serious reform among suburban elites, perhaps it will not only help suburban districts get better, but it may also finally produce the improvement urban districts have long sought.”
See, so don’t take it so personal, it appears you are in the company of many failing public school systems across this great country. And after all,if you can’t understand the 2 paragraphs above you can always thank a teacher. Or did all you educators have crappy, ignorant, illiterate parents too that failed to instill in you the need for reading comprehension never mind a proper math skillset. Perhaps it wasn’t the teachers fault after all?
fultonschoolsparent
October 21st, 2011
8:00 am
As I compared various States and county school systems on the website that I knew from around the country, I was struck by the higher scores in places where there were teachers’ unions and higher school taxes. As much as that’s all being demonized, you do get some return for better financial support and allowing teacher input.
HS Public Teacher
October 21st, 2011
8:07 am
For Fulton County School System….
It really does have to do with the split of the system between the north and the south. I would like to see these numbers if ONLY north fulton schools were used!
excuses
October 21st, 2011
8:30 am
@ mountain man
Cobb compared to the state (GA) is only about 55 percentile. I don’t see why Cobb gets so much attention as schools in Cherokee or Gwinnett seem to be doing better. There is just no question that Cobb schools are overrated.
Dr NO / Mr Sunshine
October 21st, 2011
8:31 am
This is just typical of bad apples (APS, S Fulton, Clayton etc) attempting to divert attention from their lack of character and morals and taint the good apples. Kinda like a 4th grader sayin “yeah I did wrong but what about this or that person.”
Immaturity and stupidity at its finest.
excuses
October 21st, 2011
8:34 am
@ Dr NO
I’m not any way affiliated with your bad apples, but from my vantage point, Cobb isn’t that far away from those bad apples – certainly not a “good” apple.
carlosgvv
October 21st, 2011
8:44 am
Teachers are like football coaches and baseball managers. They have to work with what they are given and if they get a large number of mediocre students, no amount of social engineering will do any real good.
Old School
October 21st, 2011
8:54 am
@HS Public Teacher.. So you would like to see the results if ONLY North Fulton schools were used. The article compares average to average. Instead, why don’t we compare ONLY North Fulton schools to ONLY the ELITE schools of other developed countries. I would guess the gap would be even wider. Kids aren’t smarter in North Fulton; they just have more advantages and get more support (private tutors, better educated parents, SAT prep classes, etc…).
William Casey
October 21st, 2011
8:59 am
I bet that our schools’ (American) football teams could defeat almost any team from a school outside of the United States. LOL
Catherine
October 21st, 2011
9:00 am
So fultonschoolsparent is “struck” by the difference in scores from unionized schools to non-union? Just ask any parent who has moved here from the Northeast, Mideast, Midwest, almost anywhere but another southeastern state, and you will get an earful. “You get what you pay for” didn’t just drop from the sky. When the schools have the financial support of the community, it is also a reflection of the value that parents place on education. When we moved here and were warned about certain school districts, I didn’t believe it. I thought “They’re public schools for crying out loud, they can’t be that bad, people wouldn’t put up with it!” Boy, was I wrong. People either don’t know or don’t care enough to demand better from themselves, their children, or their community. Poverty may pass down from generation to generation, but so does ignorance.
Dr NO / Mr Sunshine
October 21st, 2011
9:01 am
excuses
October 21st, 2011
8:34 am
Ok. I wonder what happened in Cobb. If memory serves wasnt Cobb one of the past “shining examples” of how a school system should function?
sloboffthestreet
October 21st, 2011
9:02 am
carlos
It’s mental health week. Get some!
Atlanta mom
October 21st, 2011
9:05 am
This analysis starts with State test results. They are then massaged with NAEP results and PISA (?) results and viola, we have international comparisons. No room for error there. http://www.globalreportcard.org/about.html
Dr NO / Mr Sunshine
October 21st, 2011
9:05 am
“When politically powerful and influential suburbanites get behind dramatic education reform for everyone because they think their own children need it, we may see gains that decades of lip-service and half-hearted reforms have failed to produce.”
Well if suburbia is supposedly that far gone then there is no hope for the inner city. But we wont mention the inner city corruption as thats for another time.
Atlanta mom
October 21st, 2011
9:06 am
oops, voila
A reader
October 21st, 2011
9:17 am
The report and website touts “25 developed countries”, but WHICH 25 developed countries? I tried to find that information on the website and was not able to. Before I can take any study seriously I need to know exactly what the underlying data is.
But in the end it does not matter. What matters is how well your own child is achieving and whether your own child is prepared to be a productive member of society. I cannot solve my districts problems but I can solve my own problems.
Tired of these studies
October 21st, 2011
9:18 am
I was very interested to see how my district measured against the state, nation and world until I went to this report card and saw that they are using data from 2004-2007! So much has happened in our state since 2007- curriculum changes, etc- When will a group do a study that shows us how are districts compare now and not in the past? Thanks for sharing this Maureen.
sloboffthestreet
October 21st, 2011
9:22 am
The District of Columbia spends more per student than any other state in the US. Yes they are factored into educational data. They perform at the bottom of the pile non stop. Where is the $$$ argument here. They also have a “Teachers Union.”
Georgia public education isn’t underfunded. It simply spends most of it’s money on salaries and infrastructure. This leaves very little for things like books, paper and other nicites. Georgia teacher salaries compared to the other states are very close to the top here in the U.S. So why do people constantly use the excuse that education results are low because we don’t pay teachers well? Here is a finding from the Teacher Portal.
“The state of Georgia comes in third on our comfort scale. This was figured by considering average teacher salaries compared with the cost of living in this state. Average salaries in Georgia are $48k, about $10k less than Illinois, but your dollar goes further because Georgia is more affordable.”
“Georgia’s neighbor to the west, Alabama ranks 13th on our comfort scale with an average salary of $40,347. To the south, Florida ranks 26th on our scale, with an average teacher salary of $43,302 and a much higher cost of living. If you’re considering becoming a teacher, definitely consider the state where everything is peachy!”
So why is it we as a state don’t perform along the top in educational results when we pay teachers top wages and benefits? Oh yeah I forgot. It’s the parents and Bush?
teacher&mom
October 21st, 2011
9:24 am
Food for thought:
“Unfortunately, according to Think Tank Review Project co-director Kevin Welner, professor at the University of Colorado at Boulder, ‘Across the nation, think tanks are churning out a steady stream of often low-quality reports that use weak research methods, offer biased analyses, and make recommendations that do not fit the data.’ ‘Moreover,’ explains co-director Alex Molnar, professor at Arizona State University, ‘in the political process, the influence of a report often has little relation to its quality. As a result, new school policies and reform proposals frequently are based on research of questionable value.’”
http://nepc.colorado.edu/newsletter/2010/04/think-tank-research-policy-makers-should-beware
Bucktown ITP Atl
October 21st, 2011
9:25 am
It interesting to see the immediate denial and defensive reactions. Is it possible some suburban schools aren’t as great as SOME assume? Is it possible even they could be….better??
Studies are studies, but you would think the suburban elite would WANT to be the BEST without question…rather than cry and deny. It’s the kids that matter…not the adult egos.
catlady
October 21st, 2011
9:29 am
If our teachers were only competent, we would do better on these rankings! Forget everything else, like some countries “manage” their less able students by re-directing them to other types of education, some countries are economically progressive, some have populations that have never been denied schooling, etc. The single most important determinant of achievement is the teacher! Remember? Here is proof of what sorry teachers can do!
carlosgvv
October 21st, 2011
9:37 am
sloboffthestreet – 9:02
I told you something you did not want to hear and you reacted in a predictable, knee-jerk liberal way, just as I knew you would. Living in denial is both harmful and immature so I believe it is you who could use some counseling.
Maureen Downey
October 21st, 2011
9:42 am
@A reader, The countries are listed on the web page to the right once you call up your own district in the comparison. I copied them from the site:
Australia
Austria
Belgium
Canada
Denmark
Finland
France
Germany
Greece
Hong Kong
Ireland
Israel
Italy
Japan
Korea
Netherlands
* New Zealand
Norway
Singapore
Slovenia
Spain
Sweden
Switzerland
Taiwan
United Kingdom
sloboffthestreet
October 21st, 2011
9:54 am
carlos
What you said was one of the most ignorant statements an educated human could utter. Then you continue in your response with a 5 year old mentality. Please, if for no one else but yourself, get some help! Please tell me you aren’t a teacher?
Mountain Man
October 21st, 2011
10:02 am
If you look at Cobb County’s website for testing results, you see that on the Georgia Graduation test for 2010-2011, Oakwood scored between 57 and 88 percent, versus Walton scoring from 97-100%. So there is a lot of variation within the county.
Linda
October 21st, 2011
10:04 am
The countries for comparison all have educated populations and high standards of living. Here are the countries:
Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hong Kong, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Japan, Korea, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Singapore, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Taiwan, United Kingdom
AMD
October 21st, 2011
10:11 am
Maureen, now this is a great post. We suburban American parents are so full of ourselves when coming to the quality of education that our children get in the so-called high-quality suburban school. Parents who still think our children receive the bestest edukation in the world should read the ETS’s report entitled America’s Perfect Storm at http://www.ets.org/perfect_storm.
The rise and fall of a nation’s economic status has everything to do with 1) a sound political system and 2) a quality math and science education.
Bucktown ITP Atl
October 21st, 2011
10:22 am
@ AMD 10:11 am…
There IS hope bc parents like you do exist who are willing to acknowledge reality. Again, it’s about the kids and the future, not our adult egos.
Mountain Man
October 21st, 2011
10:47 am
Spending per student is a complicated issue. How much is the spending per AVERAGE student (take out SPED and ESOL)? How much is the spending at the TEACHING level (as opposed to administration, buildings, etc.)? In the case of some systems, increased spending may get SOME improvement but will not ever bring them up to average. Again, that is dependent on the quality of the student and their parents. Ways that increased spending can help (I believe) is: smaller class sizes, longer school year, more tutors, summer school.
If we want to compete with those countries listed, we better prepare for longer days and longer school years, and a comcomitant increase in teacher pay.
Good Mother
October 21st, 2011
11:07 am
I agree that our U.S. public school systems are behind other well-developed countries. It’s this statement that bothers me
“Suburban parents need to awake from their complacency.”
Parents.
There goes all the blame again — on parents.
The fault of the U.S. education system is ALL the parents fault, according to Maureen.
Why is this mantra so typical is these blogs?
It takes the efforts of parents, teachers, administrators and politicians and society as a whole to create and maintian a good education system.
Admitting the problem is the first step
October 21st, 2011
11:42 am
@mountain man, @earnest, @teacher&mom, and anyone else who is in denial or doesn’t think that there is drastic room for improvement
there are a lot of valid points and factors that influence the achievement level of american children which i will not belabor…but we have to wake up…you don’t need this report to tell you that…simply drive to midtown, park at ga tech, and then sit among the science buildings and take note…or speak to a professor and find out why GA students are a majority in remedial classes and lag far behind international students
ga tech is your real world example…the writing has been on the wall for a while and this report is confirming the reason for the trend
another comment
October 21st, 2011
11:49 am
Just look at the higher scoring states in this country, their school districts are higher. They have had home rule, made up of local towns and villages for years. Look up in Mass and New York. That is why parents move out of NYC, and goe to Westchester county, or Long Island and commute in once their kids are past 3 or so. It is the Boston Suburbs that do well to.
I grew up outside of Buffallo, the suburban schools were great. We all were in Erie County. Erie County did not have a school system. It was every suburban town in Erie county that had its own indepentent School district. If the towns or villages were too small to support a High School, then 2-3 of them combined for a district. This way you had high performing districts. That consisted of 1- high School with 1,000-1,500 students, a feeder middle school with 750 to 1,000 students and then 2 to 3 elementary schools that were in walking distance of the neighborhoods. You had volunteer school boards. The Supt. only makes $150K today ( the two different ones my nieces and nephews go to had theirs retire this year and were advertising this year.) the High School Principal then make an Principal salary. These systems do not have all the overhead bloat of central office. Another big difference they have is that 2 or 3 of these small districts get together and share the costs of BOES ( a technical school) for the non-college bound students, to earn a general diploma and a trade. The learn auto mechanics, carpentry, plumbing, HVAC, cosmetology, etc. for 1/2 a day their Junior and Senior year. They are work ready by the time they graduate from high school. The result is they do not drop out of school, and do not disrupt the other students. Yes the property taxes are more. But the schools are rated much better. NY is always in the top 10. These School Districts are in the top 10 of New York State. The graduation rates are 95% +. The free lunch rate is less than 3% and it is not because everyone is rich. Manay of these people live on farms and would qualify. It is called pride. I worked in the grocery store in High School and saw the food stamps there, but they wouldn’t sign there kids up for free lunch at school. They would pack them a lunch first. They are too proud to let them know. There was and is an emphasis on education in these small towns. Everyone knows each other. That is what you get with small school districts.
catlady
October 21st, 2011
12:06 pm
How much diversity is there in the countries listed? By diversity, I mean racial, educational background of parents, and, especially economic diversity. My impression is that for most of the countries listed, most folks are in the same boat in those three areas.
To Maureen from Good Mother
October 21st, 2011
12:33 pm
APS is undergoing a demographic study with parent focus groups to best determine how to relieve overcrowding and to properly maintain schools and their populations. Please consider this topic for a blog.
jarvis
October 21st, 2011
12:36 pm
@catlady…ding…ding…ding
A list of Asian and European nations with Canada and Australia mixed in.
What do these countries have in common? The answer is obvious and is obviously ignored.
What?!
October 21st, 2011
1:19 pm
@HS Teacher, are you serious? There are some fabulous schools in South Fulton, and some not so fabulous schools in North Fulton. This is what bugs me about Fulton County Schools. It’s incredibily divided and the North folks think they are the cream of the crop. Yet, we have many kids in South Fulton going on to top colleges and universities. Hard to believe huh?!
Mountain Man
October 21st, 2011
1:31 pm
Good Mother – “There goes all the blame again — on parents.”
I don’t think all the blame is or should be on parents. In fact, it seems that all the blame is always on TEACHERS.
But if you are a parent who does not help and make your child do their homework, YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM! If you come in to the school ranting and raving about the discipline handed to your child, YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM! If you let your child miss school or classes, YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM!
thomas
October 21st, 2011
1:34 pm
@ good mother,
I’m not sure if the comment was meant to be “blaming” parents. I think the poster was simply saying that suburban parents should not be satisfied with what their children’s schools are doing – as they may be mediocre compared to other nation’s average. If anything, the poster was encouraging parents to push teachers/schools more as they aren’t doing good enough. So, the poster is blaming teachers/schools.
thomas
October 21st, 2011
1:36 pm
@ Dr. NO at 9:01,
Maybe Cobb lost a good PR person who can spin things around – they may have always been a mediocre system.
Admitting the problem is the first step
October 21st, 2011
2:00 pm
@catlady
there’s no so much an emphasis on “race” in other countries which is one of the problems here…please don’t blame the minorities for a majority of the issues
mum
October 21st, 2011
2:42 pm
This list looks like the countries where just about everyone gets an opportunity to attend school. There is usually a difference in the classroom (unless things have changed since my days), classes were tiered by ability. Say for example you have a 5th year class, 5-1 and 5-2 would have the smartest, then would come 5-3 and so on. The top 2 got the best teachers and of course performed the best, and it went from there although 3-4 has students that performed as well as the top 2 in certain subject areas but didn’t share classes.
thomas
October 21st, 2011
3:24 pm
@ mum,
Which country (or countries) are you referring to? Didn’t we (USA) used to do that? We were never really that great under that system, either – if you compare the averages.
To Thomas from Good Mother
October 21st, 2011
3:26 pm
Regarding blaming parents…
The statment says that suburban parents must not be complacent. Who says they are complacent? What evidence do we have of that?
No teachers or administrators or politicians or community members are blamed here, just parents. Parents are supposed to move mountains while everyone else stays still?
It takes a society to create a good educational system, not just parents.
AMD
October 21st, 2011
3:28 pm
My two cents on the low Cobb county score. Isn’t that obvious? Cobb county includes East Cobb, West Cobb and South Cobb. If only East Cobb is used for comparison, I bet the result would be very different. Also, I wonder the same about Fulton County. Does Fulton include noth North and South Fulton? Or is South Fulton part of APS? Forsyth Co. is markedly worse than North Fulton but it has a much better score than Fulton. So I have to believe Fulton includes part of South Fulton.