AJC teacher quality series: Georgia’s Fair Dismissal Law makes it costly to fire problem educators
Today’s installment of the AJC series on teacher quality in the Sunday AJC concentrates on teacher job protections and the obstacles to firing problem teachers.
I have found great disagreement among education leaders on how hard it is to remove an ineffective or problem teacher from the classroom. Some school chiefs tell me it is a matter of careful documentation and can be done, while others say it’s a major undertaking that saps all their time and energy and still ends up in court battles.
In the fifth entry in the ongoing AJC teacher quality series, reporters describe a recent tribunal hearing to fire an Atlanta teacher for incompetence and insubordination: Located at the district’s headquarters, the hearing room is staged like a traditional courtroom: In front sits a hearing officer, paid for by the district to oversee the proceedings. To the officer’s right: three tribunal members, designated by the school board, who in Atlanta can each bill up to $150 a day, plus expenses. To the officer’s left, a court stenographer who typically charges $100 a day plus $7 per transcript page. And facing the officer and tribunal sits the school district’s attorney, behind stacks of papers that hint at the hours spent investigating the case.
The AJC is making this occasional series on teacher quality available only to subscribers. You can read today’s full article by picking up a copy of Sunday’s Atlanta Journal-Constitution or logging on to the paper’s iPad app. Here is a link to the AJC digital options, including an E-subscription, which gives you the actual paper online.
Here is a link to our Part 1 discussion here on the blog.
Here is a link to our Part 2 discussion.
Here is a link to our Part 3 discussion:
Here is a link to our Part 4 discussion:
And here are some findings from today’s installment of the teacher quality series:
–The Atlanta cheating scandal is shining a spotlight on teacher job protections, which were abolished in 2000 under then-Gov. Roy Barnes but restored three years later by his successor, Gov. Sonny Perdue.
–Atlanta taxpayers are spending $1 million a month to keep about 130 educators named in the report on paid leave while the district prepares legal cases needed to fire them. The school district expects to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars more in legal fees. That’s because schools must build legal cases against teachers with three or more years of experience, who can only be let go for eight allowable reasons. Teachers can appeal their firing all the way to the state Supreme Court.
–Supporters of the law say teachers need protection against unwarranted accusations or angry parents, or from the political maneuvering of meddling school board members. But critics say the laws are an impediment to Georgia’s attempt to improve the quality of the teaching workforce. As the pressure to improve test scores increases, they argue, so must the flexibility to remove bad teachers.
–The time and financial commitment required to fire a teacher in Georgia means only a small number of teachers in metro Atlanta districts - less than 1 percent of the workforce – are let go in any given year.
–It often takes a year to build a case against a teacher for low performance, but by law the case usually can’t include actions from previous school years. In other words, once a teacher signs a contract for the new school year, problems from the past can’t be used as evidence to fire them.
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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164 comments Add your comment
Checks and Balances
October 9th, 2011
6:31 am
Does Fair Dismissal protect some poor teachers. Yes, yes, yes.
Does Fair Dismissal protect many excellent teachers from the capricious actions of poor, extremely poor administrators? Yes, yes, yes, and thousand times yes.
Look at APS and the literally hundreds of teachers they tried to fire, not because they were poor, but because they tried to expose CHEATING administrators, an action so egregious, the governor had to step in.
Let’s get some REAL checks and balances to stop these abuses. Let’s stop hamstring teachers with IMPOSSIBLE mandates and BOGUS instructional fads. Let’s EMPOWER teachers to be so successful, let’s make teaching conditions so good, that the good teachers THEMSELVES demand their sorry, trifling peers get the boot.
But right now, we are doing the moral equivalent of blaming the soldiers for losing the war in Vietnam, instead of the bureaucrats in Washington D.C. for their failing policies.
Elizabeth
October 9th, 2011
6:41 am
Not another article about how to fire poor teachers! More teacher slamming. How much do you think we can take? Teachers can be fired if administrators will do the paperwork. But most don’t want to or have the time to do it. They wa t to make a capricious decision based on the mood of the moment or one bad observation or incident. One student falsely accusing a teacher can get you fired. One administrator who does not like you or your teaching style can cause you to be removed. One parent complaint can cause havoc fo ryour career. And you want to take away that protection? Watch us leave if that happens– in droves– and then watch us sue, because you better believe I would.
Why there is Fair Dismissal
October 9th, 2011
6:46 am
Consider the teacher who was given more than a dozen NI on their observation.
Obviously an extremely poor teacher, a perfect example of a system that protects poor teachers, right?
Now consider this: at the time of the alleged “observation” when the principal was in the room “observing” this teacher in action; the children were in another part of the school with another teacher!
And the teacher was told because it was what the principal had “observed” it could not be appealed.
Yes, even though the students were in another room, with another teacher, at the time of the alleged “observation” because the principal allegedly “observed” the NI, the observation could not be appealed.
But do those who whine about “poor teachers protected” hold themselves even a portion of accountable as they want to hold teachers, and craft legislation to stop abuses such as these?
In fact I challenge anybody to post where a politician in Georgia has introduced the first piece of legislation that addresses using the evaluation instrument in a punitive manner.
(Crickets, chirping)
One final note: is it any surprise the alleged “observation” occurred immediate after a meeting where the lack of support for discipline in the school was brought up?
Follow the logic
October 9th, 2011
6:51 am
What’s next from the AJC, a series of articles about how we should abolish the 4th Amendment to the Constitution because some criminals have been let go in the past when police failed to follow it?
But this is par for the course for the AJC and Maureen and the ongoing mantra called “blame teachers first”. After all, Maureen is the one who said retaliation against teachers happens rarely if at all.
Shoot first, ask questions later
October 9th, 2011
6:58 am
Dang this pesky criminal justice system. Costs, costs, costs. Let’s just shoot all the “ineffective” citizens at the first sign of trouble. After all, isn’t just as important to have an “effective” citizenry as it is “effective” teachers?
It's what Maureen wanted
October 9th, 2011
7:14 am
Funny Maureen wants to whine about this:
‘Atlanta taxpayers are spending $1 million a month to keep about 130 educators named in the report on paid leave while the district prepares legal cases needed to fire them”
Who approved these contracts? Beverly Hall. Yes the same Beverly Hall Maureen repeatedly said needed to stay at the helm of APS for the “stability” she provided.
But has Maureen showed even a fraction of accountability she asks of teachers to acknowledge the consequences of taking such a position?
Or would she rather continue her favorite game, “blame teachers first”?
teacher&mom
October 9th, 2011
8:08 am
If an administrator is WILLING to do the paperwork, dismissal is a piece of cake.
I’ve yet to witness a teacher (good or bad) win the dismissal battle. Superintendents and school board members may acknowledge behind closed doors that the administrator is weak and ineffective, but publicly they will support the admin. Administration almost ALWAYS wins.
Teachers will call PAGE and GAE to find little to no support….because everyone has a hard time holding our administrators accountable.
Why do you think Beverly Hall was able to work her “magic” for so long and keep the naysayers quiet? The AJC, mayor’s office, and business community was supporting Hall up to the last minute. Why did everyone assume Hall and her leadership was innocent but was so quick to pass judgement on the teachers?
Because in the state of GA, a teacher is assumed guilty before proven innocent. That’s how we “keep” our teachers in line.
(btw: I believe Hall, the administrators, testing coordinators, and teachers who were involved should be fired and their license revoked….but they deserve due process.)
carlosgvv
October 9th, 2011
8:27 am
Those in charge are hesitant to fire poor teachers for a number of reasons. One obvious one is that they don’t want to be called “racist” and have Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton marching outside their offices. And, they don’t want lawyers swarming around them like locusts threating them professionally and financially.
teacher&mom
October 9th, 2011
8:32 am
Perhaps it is time for an AJC piece on school leadership?
How does GA train our administrators? What are the credentials?
What are the qualities of a strong administrator? How do you measure strong leadership?
Once an administrator is in place, what process monitors their progress and achievement?
What is the process for removing ineffective leadership? How often does this occur?
Does strong leadership make a difference? Is it important?
It's what Maureen wanted
October 9th, 2011
8:35 am
“Why do you think Beverly Hall was able to work her “magic” for so long and keep the naysayers quiet? The AJC, mayor’s office, and business community was supporting Hall up to the last minute.”
Yes teacher&mom. ALL the evidence one ever needed for a board with some guts to ask Hall to step down was available MONTHS before she left.
But people like Maureen said she needed to stay so she could provide “stability”.
Had she NOT been there, the four Executive Directors would not have been “rubber stamped” to return and the system would NOT be paying them to sit on their collective backsides right now.
But what do we expect from a “blame teachers first” shill who makes statements such as the lack of support for teachers in matters of discipline isn’t a “pressing issue” in the schools?
Sallie
October 9th, 2011
8:37 am
Let’s just run up the cost of trying to get rid of poor performing teachers so the slugs can stay and the parents and taxpayers give up. The price of keeping poorly performing teachers and orgainztional brittleness that comes from stifling processes is that the parents most directly involved lose heart and the taxpayers gradulally stop being willing to foot the bill. Just wait till the next SPLOST vote.
Sharon Pitts must Go
October 9th, 2011
8:38 am
I agree with “What Maureen Wanted”…Atlanta Taxpayers should rise up and demand action on these educators who are being paid 1 million + of taxpayers money to sit at home.
Concerned
October 9th, 2011
8:46 am
What about teachers who make one mistake should they loss their jobs because of one mistake. Can teachers really win at tribunals or is it a waste of time and money?
It's what Maureen wanted
October 9th, 2011
8:53 am
Sallie, what specific steps are you willing to take to address administrative RETALIATION that makes Fair Dismissal rights necessary in the first place?
And why won’t even ONE politician, (outside of possibly State Sen. Ralph Long) address that in Georgia?
What would you say to the HUNDREDS of APS teachers who almost lost their teaching jobs, NOT because they were incompetent, but because they testified to RAMPANT, WIDESPREAD cheating?
When we can answer THAT question, then we can move with moral authority to rid the deadweight. And we need to, because some “teachers” are just a flat out embarrassment.
But what we have now are GOOD teachers targeted for dismissal for speaking out in FAR more often than poor teachers targeted, so why are you surprised teachers would advocate for Fair Dismissal rights to remain intact?
What, you think teachers enjoy working with clowns who are an embarrassment to the profession?
It's what Maureen wanted
October 9th, 2011
8:59 am
You want to fix this, here’s how.
Every administrator gets a “vote of confidence” from the staff every year. They have to pass a certain “benchmark” to remain.
Oh,but that cuts the principal off at the knees, in that the principal has to placate staff? Yes, IF you make the “benchmark” 90% or above.
But let’s say you make it 50%? After all, if a principal can’t even get 50% of their staff on board to support them, what more proof do you need that they are a weak, ineffective leader for THAT particular school?
Even a “50%” benchmark (as a good “watered down” starting point that not even GAE or PAGE could find fault with) would be a good starting point to deter administrators who act in heavy handed, capricious ways.
But will a political even BEGIN to discuss this? GAE or PAGE even BEGIN to discuss this? And you wonder why there are people like “Fled” and other FORMER Georgia teachers who populate this blog, yet are providing VALUE to schools outside Georgia?
Former Teacher
October 9th, 2011
9:20 am
Couldn’t you put all those teachers earning salaries and sitting at home to work as school-based tutors? If they aren’t grading, they can’t be cheating so what’s the harm? At least they could help some of the students improve. Make them earn the money. We never said they couldn’t teach – we just said they couldn’t be trusted to grade. A million a month? That’s a lot of tutoring money!
It's what Maureen wanted
October 9th, 2011
9:28 am
But don’t you see Former Teacher asking a SRT Executive Direction to actually help a student is “beneath” their exalted status.
Here’s a more instructive question. Did any of the SRT Executive Directors even OFFER to be of service to children, while their cases were under appeal?
Just Be a Superior Teacher
October 9th, 2011
9:40 am
No wonder we are at the bottom in all metrics in education. We need to be able to fire teachers and administrators on the spot when they are sub-par and do not understand that they must be superior to teach our kids to be future leaders. We must require excellence instead of settling for lazy, good-for-nothing teachers with poor attitudes who cannot succeed in any job, anywhere else, except maybe another government job.
But of course, leave it to the government, in all of its divisions and departments, to protect those with bad attitudes who are lazy and incompetent. This is the reason for the saying, “good enough for government work.”
Our society accepts, and even promotes, the lowest common denominator as the standard. Our acceptance of mediocrity, and promotion of base-culture, as normal will be our total destruction as a society. We see this being played out in failing schools and school systems.
OhHaiThur
October 9th, 2011
9:41 am
All of this wouldn’t have been an issue if it had been resolved earlier in 2011 before contract renewals went out. Then whoever stepped in to start the firings could have saved taxpayers millions by simply not renewing their contracts.
Arguing over this teacher protection law is looking at the wrong thing. It shouldn’t have taken as long as it did to get started reviewing the files and records on this, but people at the county and state level were slow to act on any of it.
Jenna
October 9th, 2011
9:44 am
I don’t see why anyone would want to teach in thid state…teachers are treated like crap in GA. Maureen…I am sure most teachers would agree with giving up tenure if they could leave their jobs at any point in the school year like a regular job. Teachers are indentured servants for 10 months. How do u think parents would like them apples?
Anonmom
October 9th, 2011
9:50 am
Tangentially — in DCSS– there are only about 5-6 schools (in the entire system of over 100 schools) with principals who have been in their positions for over 5 years; further, the vast majority (e.g. you’d be hard pressed to find….) of the principals have experience in the classroom for more than 8-10 years. The folks supervising the principals and those in central office also don’t have substantial teaching experience. If you probe deeper — you’ll find that a significant number of those “in authority” (principals, assistant principals, area superintendents, etc.) over actual education issues have come out of “non academic” areas — e.g. gym (one of whom is a very experienced principal at an excellent middle school). I think that if there was/is a culture of “experience” in the classroom with classroom management and an educational background in various disciplines “up the ladder” — I think there would be a better system of “checks and balances” as issues arose and folks needed to go or there were issues that were “correctable.” When you have a system that promotes based on “patronage” rather than experience, you design a system that is unable to really function and properly “cull” those who need to be culled (I’m speaking from the perspective of a parent with 3 kids going through the system and not from the perspective of an employee within the system).
Once upon a time — there were monthly meetings in DCSS on how to run a school and to be a principal — Dr. Brown eliminated these meeting – I think he thought that the Area Superintendents would take over that training — “how to fire” was one of the topics that was regularly addressed.
The Devil You Say
October 9th, 2011
9:51 am
As a friend of a teacher who was literally maligned and defamed by the Coweta School System, the fault lies with the corrupt and administrators and not with the teachers.
HS Math Teacher
October 9th, 2011
9:55 am
The state should look at offering some type of early retirement package for teachers. Of the few poor teachers I’ve known in my career, all but one had about 5 years until retirement. All but one were great teachers in the past.
Another Math Teacher
October 9th, 2011
9:59 am
A skilled administrator can get rid of a poor teacher easily.
A skilled administrator can get rid of an excellent teacher with some work.
The Devil You Say
October 9th, 2011
10:01 am
One of these administrators actually admitted under oath to sexually harassing this teacher, yet he is still working as an administrator, while this teacher has not worked as a teacher since!!!!
Burroughston Broch
October 9th, 2011
10:05 am
I don’t agree with the whining about teacher dismissal. In Georgia, every employee is an employee at will, unless he is a teacher or other government employee, or has an employment contract. Being an employee at will means that you can be dismissed without your employer having to show cause. Guess what, folks? It works and it’s better than the “educational process.”. Sure, some effective people get a raw deal on occasion and some drones get a job for life. Some people work for a firm (think school) and they don’t fit in, so they leave and go to a firm where they fit in. Implementing this process in the educational system would help in straightening out the mess that we have.
It's what Maureen wanted
October 9th, 2011
10:07 am
What you don’t get “Just Be A Superior Teacher” most likely because you don’t WANT to get it, is that GOOD teachers are targeted far more often than poor ones.
Why do you think teachers are leaving Georgia? Because teaching conditions are so wonderful?
And do you think given teachers LESS power is going to make them feel MORE empowered about staying?
Let’s just add “Just Be A Superior Teacher” to the list of people who offer NOTHING to protect teachers from retaliation, which would be the one thing that would get most if not all people on board to start removing the deadweight.
It's what Maureen wanted
October 9th, 2011
10:16 am
“Being an employee at will means that you can be dismissed without your employer having to show cause”
And is this what would be best for students BB? A teacher summarily dismissed because they didn’t want to buy Amway products from the principal? Or got an abortion (Oh, you don’t think that doesn’t happen here in Georgia?) Or because they stood up against for example…WIDESPREAD MASSIVE CHEATING?
Yes let’s just cut these teachers off at the knees for taking a stand; that’ll be sure to make things better!
Address administrative RETALIATION…then address the deadweight.
What do you think teachers ENJOY working with clowns who make the whole profession look bad? No, they just know without some protection, THEY may be targets for no legitimate, valid reason.
It's what Maureen wanted
October 9th, 2011
10:20 am
Notice not a SINGLE person whining about teachers having Fair Dismissal Right will address the issue of administrative RETALIATION that makes those rights necessary in the first place?
In the private sector, at least the option remains that you can make a case that you add VALUE to a company, but since the goal in the public schools is to perpetuate the bureaucracy and pretend it’s “working” even THAT option isn’t available to teachers who speak out on issues of concern
It's what Maureen wanted
October 9th, 2011
10:23 am
Yes BB it worked in D.C under Michelle Rhee. Got rid of some teachers, scores went up.
Oops! Turns out they didn’t go up; turns out it was yet another case of….WIDESPREAD, MASSIVE, CHEATING.
Private School Guy
October 9th, 2011
10:28 am
The series really needs to look at entrenched administrators in public schools. How many principals and assistant principal have been fired in Georgia schools in the last decades? Is the ratio of dismissed administrators the same ratio as teachers? What ever the system is it can’t work unless the same rules that apply to teachers apply to those in charge. In cases that have made news many administrators that have done something detrimental end up with the same pay in some central office department.
George
October 9th, 2011
10:33 am
We basically need to fire parents thats the real issue.I have a son that is a senior at Miller Grove High School. The teachers are great because we support them.We need to wake up We only hear this where test scores are low.Teachers can give students work and they will laugh at you .Wow the scores are in and they are low That sorry teacher did not do her job lets fire him or her. Next stop the jail house we are stll spending money as a tax payers.We can change all of this over night give the teacher power to fail a student.The principal is only a poltican not a leader.
Private School Guy
October 9th, 2011
10:35 am
The need for fair dismissal was explained to me in a grad school class for educators many years ago. While the process can bog things down it prevents a principal in a small town high school from firing a totally competent teacher so that the wife of the new football coach can have a job. The process was set up to stem nepotism and patronage.
Logic 05
October 9th, 2011
10:38 am
Yet another reasons for vouchers.
Cassie
October 9th, 2011
10:45 am
Is there a separate set of procedures for firing incompetent and/or corrupt administrators?
Polk County
October 9th, 2011
10:46 am
I agree that the problem usually starts at the top with ineffective, cowardly leadership. Strong leaders LEAD by example and don’t make excuses – they solve problems. Great teachers lose motivation when forced to work alongside with lazy teachers who are getting their degrees online and/or becoming educators for the summers off. Every child deserves to have teachers who make learning fun – those who aren’t willng to step up and deliver should be culled to make way for those who want to make a difference. Even one bad apple means 20+ unprepared students who deserve better.
November 6, 2012
October 9th, 2011
10:53 am
Once again, every principal knows who the lousy teachers are and should have the authority to fire them; however, we know that’s not gonna happen because of political pressure to keep these people employed. I have been lectured over and over on the fact that we don’t have teacher unions in Georgia, but we do have MACE and Dr. John has proven to be someone you really don’t want to tangle with……so we keep the bad teachers. Political Correctness gone AMOK. Our education business should be run like a business……you have a bad apple, you fire them…..period.
www.indictbeverlyhall.com
October 9th, 2011
11:03 am
http://www.indictbeverlyhall.com/
The road to education reform starts in Atlanta!
www.indictkathyaugustine.com
October 9th, 2011
11:12 am
Bonnie had Clyde, Batman had Robin, and Bev had…
http://www.indictkathyaugustine.com/
MB
October 9th, 2011
11:48 am
AnonMom, Fulton also has had a LOT of admin turnover. Look at the board briefs for the past two years and the turnover is disturbing. Believe me, not all the changes are positive either; less nepotism but definite trend toward very young principals, leaving more experienced APs (generally with more classroom experience) to work under the inexperienced. HR just moved people around (seemingly at their whims) and it has created an atmosphere of fear.
What M W anted: My local HS leadership team and LSAC had a meeting with zero support (NO confidence) for a second year principal. They moved him, of course, downtown for a CO job and then to another in the county. Based on his FY 2010 salary in OpenGA, he will likely make a higher salary than the remaining HS principals. HOW is THAT reasonable? Rewards for ineffectiveness?
Jack
October 9th, 2011
11:55 am
I’m sure it’s been asked before, but why are teachers hired if their qualifications are suspect? Why are they given a contract before their qualifications are proven in the classroom? In most professions, a trial period is requied. A degree in education doesn’t mean you can teach; it means you can earn a degree.
One parents inside perspective
October 9th, 2011
11:55 am
For starters be selective with your pool of applicants. In real estate it’s location location location. In hiring teachers it needs to be background check background check background check. As an example: The school district hires a Sub after said amount of time that Sub is hired as a full time employee working in a classroom setting with special needs students. At some point that teacher restrains a student. Most likely there is going to be an unhappy parent. With some checking that parent finds that this teacher has had criminal chargers of domestic violence in his past one incident involving a gun. In my opinion this teacher is a high expense liability to the school district. I realize the pickings are slim but do your do diligence before hiring employees that will cause future issues.
MB
October 9th, 2011
12:01 pm
Polk County and 11/6/12: AMEN!! I spent most of five years trying to get away from a situation aided and abetted by a weak administrator. At least five people before myself identified and documented the complete ineffectiveness of a fellow teacher but this admin would NEVER follow through. Talk about demoralizing (and creating a complete lack of respect for admin…) Unfortunately, in Fulton at least, it seemed the RIF in 2010 became just what due process was meant to prevent. Teachers who were thorns in their principal’s side were quickly documented out, but the true deadwood Cindy Loe said should go is still in the schools…
hryder
October 9th, 2011
12:04 pm
Many people would not have the angst toward specific persons, or in fact most areas when conflicts arise, if a small amount of basic statistics were understood. There is nothing wrong or bad with being average, normal, or usual. Yet most people do not want people teaching who are average and when one realizes that there has to be someone teaching who is below average to recognize average and the merry go round begins. If, in today’s economy, teaching salaries began at $2000,000.00 there would be no shortage of highly motivated highly competent people teaching. But, there would still be, by definition, average, below average, and above average teachers. Most of the time you get what you are willing to pay. High school drop-outs only rarely become CEOs. Most millionaires did not attain their holdings by purchasing a lottery ticket. Many know from a children’s literature book that we can not all be firemen. Yet many think that all teachers should be well above average.
Dacula High School Parent
October 9th, 2011
12:06 pm
AJC if you want another story to investigate, check out the recent release of good teachers at Dacula High School. The principal was told not to hire any new teachers. There was a hiring freeze.
A new football coach was brought in, and he brought in three or four coaches with him.
Rumor has it that all one coach does is break down film, and one works with one of the running backs.
Good coaches were removed from coaching so the new coach had his yes men in place.
I believe all of the new teachers either do not teach in the classroom or only supervise in school suspension.
Three or four really good teachers were reassigned to other schools well into the school year. Some students had as many as 5 or 6 of their classes rescheduled because of the reassignments.
The remaining teachers are scared to death to even discuss the subject.
Why don’t you call the principal and ask why he disobeyed the hiring freeze, and why he shipped of good quality teachers. What is more important at DHS? Football or student learning.
At Dacula High School, the answer is simple. Football!
Another Math Teacher
October 9th, 2011
12:07 pm
Jack:
“I’m sure it’s been asked before, but why are teachers hired if their qualifications are suspect? Why are they given a contract before their qualifications are proven in the classroom? In most professions, a trial period is requied. A degree in education doesn’t mean you can teach; it means you can earn a degree.”
You don’t get fair dismissal rights until your 4th contract signed. Teachers in Georgia have around 2.5 years before they reach that point. (Longer than most all professions in terms of a trial period.)
If you are questioning why they get a 10 month contract prior to having a few years teaching, I’m sure teachers would love to be at-will employees with no repercussions for leaving mid year.
Jazznifa
October 9th, 2011
12:12 pm
Removing problem government workers is challenging across the board, not just in education.
In the federal agency I’m familiar with our union will go to the mat for an underperforming dues paying member every time. It’s the rare manager who has the time or inclination to jump through all the flaming hoops – including dealing with the EEO complaint that invariably gets filed – necessary to remove someone. Usually we’ll just try to transfer the slacker someplace where he/she can do the least harm.
DLink
October 9th, 2011
12:20 pm
Just heard on the news, “There is plenty of parking available here at the gay pride festival, including the MARTA parking lot…” When the news treats MARTA as a convenient parking lot for our cars, it’s no wonder people don’t think about using mass transit as it should be used. /rant.
On topic. Before ANYBODY should be allowed to “fire” a teacher, the teacher MUST first be allowed to “fire” individually disruptive/incapable students. End topic.
Pincipaled
October 9th, 2011
12:35 pm
“What is the process for removing ineffective leadership?”
Considering administrators in the schools don’t even have the protections that the teachers do regarding due process, I’d say very easily
Unfortunatley this is the reason so many principals seem weak or vindictive. Try to stand up for the teachers to the Superintendent and a principal willbe out of a job much quicker a d with less recourse than the teacher.
All principals know this. We manage a group ( teachers) with much more job protection than we have and work for people with 3 year contracts and buy out deals.
Lee
October 9th, 2011
12:38 pm
“It often takes a year to build a case against a teacher for low performance, but by law the case usually can’t include actions from previous school years. In other words, once a teacher signs a contract for the new school year, problems from the past can’t be used as evidence to fire them.”
Explains a lot, actually. As long as the teacher’s issues do not get too egregious within the year, the principal knows that next year will bring a new set of students/parents and he will have a few months reprieve before the complaints start anew.
My teacher wife has had four different principals and an untold number of assistant principals in the past ten years. Expect no action against the problem teacher in the first year. The second year, the administrator knows who the poor teachers are, but unless something happened that forces them to take action, few rarely do. By the third year, the administrator is looking toward his/her next job and they do not want to do anything to rock the boat – better to let the next administrator deal with the problem.
End result, problems never get addressed.
…and if you have the misfortune of having your child assigned to one of these not-worth-a-crap teachers, get ready for a year of pure hell.
————————————–
Speaking of contracts, the only benefit I see is that it locks the teacher into a position for a year, which in theory, minimizes disruptions to the class.
However, administration is free to uproot a teacher weeks or months into the school year and move them to another grade/school. Also, as recent events have illustrated, the number of days (and subsequent annual pay) may be changed unilaterally by the school system.
So, contracts, why do school systems even do them anymore? They mean nothing.
———————————–
One last thing, in my 35 years in the corporate world as well as owning my own business, I can attest to the fact that one problem employee can change the entire dynamics of a group. Petty, spiteful, and mean employees will poison the work environment. As Barney Fife would say, you have to “nip it in the bud.”
V for Vendetta
October 9th, 2011
12:43 pm
Maureen,
Though I’ve said many times before that we all know who the bad teachers are and they should be quickly fired, much of what these blog posters say is true. The good teachers–the ones who truly care and want to create a positive learning environment for students–are often the ones hushed or targeted by spineless administration because they cause trouble. In this case, by “cause trouble,” I mean they question the policies and practices of their schools and counties when they are not in the best interest of student learning. Consider some of the state’s biggest districts: Cobb, Dekalb, Gwinnett, North Fulton, etc. For every one story you hear about someone standing up against a policy that doesn’t benefit students, there are probably ten other teachers who were silenced or threatened.
After all, even troublesome, cantankerous people such as myself have a family to feed.
Dr. Craig Spinks/ Georgians for Educational Excellence
October 9th, 2011
12:48 pm
Are Georgia school boards paying their attorneys more than they’re worth? The Richmond County Board of Education and the Columbia County Board of Education combined to pay the firm of Fletcher, Harley and Fletcher over $800K last fiscal year. What did the RCBOE and the CCBOE receive for more than three-quarters of a million dollars in legal fees?
And, Friends, if you think we east-central Georgians are the only taxpayers being hosed through exorbitant legal fees, send your local BOE an FOI request for information about how much your local board paid its school board attorney last fiscal year? You won’t be pleasantly surprised, IF you receive a response.
Who Cares
October 9th, 2011
12:53 pm
Seriously? We start teachers at 30K…oh, and a few days laid off (furloughed)…then we bit4h and moan about the profession. You get what you pay for, Atlanta. $6000 more for teachers than we pay garbage men…and yet we expect miracles…teachers in Ga don’t have unions, so whose fault is it that they can’t be fired…who wants that crappy job anyway…I don’t see Maureen or anyone else knocking down the doors of the profession…I wonder who taught Maureen how to read and write?
Katz
October 9th, 2011
12:57 pm
It’s time to do away with professional administrators. Teachers should be allowed to draft administrators from their ranks.
One way to do this would be an annual draft for a two year term. This allows for a year of transition. Restricting individuals to one administrative term every five years will maintain the primary focus on teaching.
This approach has worked well in other government agencies.
Dr. John Trotter
October 9th, 2011
12:57 pm
You can read my take on the possibility of eliminating due process rights for teachers and my reaction to this asinine move at my personal blog >>>
http://www.georgiateachersspeakout.com
Dr. Craig: You are right…school board attorneys (or, school board pimps) are making bundles of greenbacks keeping litigation going on in the school systems. Hourly billing, baby hourly billing! Their bills and what the school systems pay them are subject to the Georiga Open Records Law. You can have lots of fun requesting these documents. I may do so soon, but I have been so busy lately.
School Letdown
October 9th, 2011
1:04 pm
Administrator retailiation is not a joke anymore it is real. They get rid of teachers that will speak up especially if they don’t have tenure. I agee with all the articles. I am an educator myself and I really don’t know what is going to happen to education. I feel bad for students because some of them are really getting lousy teachers.
Burroughston Broch
October 9th, 2011
1:21 pm
@ It’s what Maureen wanted et al
While you whine about administrators, remember that every one of them used to be a classroom teacher. Every one of them looked at the ed biz system and realized the way to make more money and do less work (also known as gaming the system) was to get into administration. They might not be the brightest, but they are the most opportunistic.
Once they get into administration, their career strategy changes. As classroom teachers, the only way they could earn more money was longer years of service and a higher degree. As administrators, they become self-promoters, able to rise up the ladder in the ed biz. Self-promoters have their self interest as their prime focus and everything else is secondary. It’s akin to a politician running for election.
The problem is that the entire system stinks. The classroom teachers aren’t blameless, and neither are the administrators. They all want to blame someone else.
3rd Grade Teacher
October 9th, 2011
1:22 pm
This whole article is a joke. Period
Ken
October 9th, 2011
1:23 pm
WHY IS IT SO HARD TO GET RID OF A PROBLEM COLUMNIST LIKE MAUREEN DOWNEY? The AJC continues to employ 2nd rate sensationalists as ‘columnists’, who make their living by angering the largely conservative Southern population that the paper serves with their idiotic liberalistic utopian rants. Typical….let’s attack hard-working underpaid teachers and give a free pass to the parents and unmotivated students.
justbrowsing
October 9th, 2011
1:25 pm
Maureen- there are just some lousy administrators out there. The targeting and tar and feather parties they conduct in their schools are often indicative of the low level of maturity a great many, not all, of them have. The toxic aspect of it all are the teaching adults who are complicit with the nonsense. Truthfully, many of them lack a moral compass, and require more oversight than teachers.
Dr. John Trotter
October 9th, 2011
1:27 pm
Due Process protects good teachers from angry, abusive, insecure, incompetent, and vindictive administrators. There is a movement under foot to do away with due process for teachers. You will see more systematic cheating if this occurs. I suspect that the series about “Teacher Quality” by The Atlanta Journal Constitution is part of a cabal to set up the scene for eliminating due process rights for teachers in the Georgia General Assembly next year, the same rights that teachers have enjoyed since the early 1970s.
If a school system is thinking about terminating a teacher (and ruining his or her life forever), then there needs to be a rather stiff premium for doing this. There should be a hurdle in place. The truth of the matter is this: Most teachers resign before a hearing takes place. The move to do away with due process rights is just another Republican move to attempt to make public education like private enterprise. It is NOT private enterprise; it is PUBLIC education, and in PUBLIC education, the classroom educators have to attempt to educate each child sent to his or her classroom. Often times, this gargantuan undertaking has to occur within the direst of circumstances. Some children are intent on disrupting the class and causing all kinds disturbances for those children who are motivated to learn. Also, a significant number of the parents in PUBLIC education are the causes for the dysfunctionality of the children; they themselves are dysfunctional, irate, and irresponsible. On top of this, so many of the administrators these days prefer to inflict torment on the teachers instead of dealing with the structural deficiencies within the school setting and the lack of motivation of the children to learn.
To add insult to injury, a good number (I am not exaggerating) of the egotistical and abusive administrators seem to feel that their positions as administrators entitle them to have sex with whomever they want on their faculties. Shocking? Well, get over it. It happens. And, if a teacher rebuffs an administrator (and it is not always a male administrator), then her (or his) life will be a living hell from then on. Bad evaluations will ensue immediately and the mental torment and emotional toil will even be reflected in physical ailments (and sometimes premature deaths) for the innocent teachers.
And you think that I am concerned that this wicked attempt to fire an innocent teacher will cost the school system a few bucks? Get real. The school system already pays for the Hearing Officer and Tribunal Members (the same members hear cases constantly). To whom do you think that these people are loyal? Good grief. The deck is already stacked against the teachers. But, when the actions are the administrator are so obviously flagrant and egregious, then this gives the superintendent pause about allowing such dastardly actions to see the light of day. This is what protects good teachers against evil and wicked administrators. © GTSO, October 9, 2011.
Dr. John Trotter
October 9th, 2011
1:31 pm
Please forgive the typo: “But, when the actions [of] the administrator are so obviously flagrant and egregious…”
Pincipaled
October 9th, 2011
1:36 pm
Dr. Trotter.
Who protects the good administrators? The ones who stand up for the teachers and kids?
An effective building leader should be able to stand up for whAt is right also but we have had that protection stripped from us. How do we fix that?
It's what Maureen wanted
October 9th, 2011
1:39 pm
Oh but nooooooo Dr. Trotter you are so very, very, wrong.
Don’t you know, as per Maureen’s teachings, that retaliation is a “rare” occurrence?
And discipline, and the lack of support for teachers in matters of discipline, is NOT “a pressing issue”
Haven’t you learned anything since “getting schooled” by Maureen? You know she does have an expertise you might not have, having substitute taught for a year a couple of decades ago in the badlands of New Jersey.
Her street cred is such that even Jersey mobsters wet their pants in fear at the mere mention of her name.
So I hear.
Oh how many of these problems could have been avoided if we had just listened to Maureen’s counsel, and kept Beverly Hall in charge for the “stability” she provided.
Fired Counselor
October 9th, 2011
2:00 pm
It seem to me that the press has no idea about the dynamics of school, and all the administrative crap that goes on behind the scene. The teachers need to force school district to call the situation what it was which was institutionalized Administrative Bullying where the teachers get blamed, and left holdding the bag. The parents have no idea how institutionalized Administrative bullying is ran because teachers are the front line of education. http://www.watchfuleyes.ning.com it time to take a stand against administrative bullying, and do not allow all those teachers to loose their jobs unless more administrators get fired also.
Excuses, excuses
October 9th, 2011
2:09 pm
Why is everyone blaming the messenger and not speaking to the issue. I would say 10 to 15 percent of my fellow teachers don’t belong in a classroom. Why can’t we admit that and deal with as a profession instead of blaming the AJC.
And to Ken who says Republicans care about teachers, have you not noticed all the cuts to teacher pay since the Republican took over? Haven’t you read all the comments from Republicans about gutting teacher unions? Did you see what happened in Wisconsin?
Dr. John Trotter
October 9th, 2011
2:18 pm
There is no doubt that institutionalized administrative bullying takes place on a daily basis and is more prevalent in school systems than in others. It was totally out-of-control in Atlanta. You now see why MACE has had to act so thuggish when dealing with thugs. The administrative thugs know that we at MACE are not one bit afraid of them; to the contrary, they are afraid of MACE. This is what we have to do, viz., get the administrative bullies off the case of our teacher-members.
@ Principaled: I feel your pain. I really do. Administrative tenure was ended in 1995 (I believe that this was the year). I believe that this was a huge mistake made by the State. This had made administrative feel so beholden to the tyrannical superintendents. There are some good administrators out there. I have made this point many times. But, it is harder and harder for them to survive. The superintendents essentially want spineless, booger-eatin’ weasels who will do anything that they demand of them. And, of course, these weak and mealy-mouthed administrators just goose step like good Nazis.
DLink
October 9th, 2011
2:26 pm
I should probably repeat myself, as people appear hard of reading.
“Before ANYBODY should be allowed to “fire” a teacher, the teacher MUST first be allowed to “fire” individually disruptive/incapable students. End topic.”
Student success is the basic marker of a successful education system. Period. Let’s work our way up from there… When a teacher “fires” a student, it becomes the responsibility of the teacher AND the administrator over the teacher. When an administrator over-rides the teacher to allow the student to continue OR fires the teacher, it becomes the responsibility of the administrators watchdog to go back to the student which started the chain of events for good or ill. PERIOD.
ALL chains of events begin and end with the students’ education. I see idiots fussing over the bureaucracy while failing to realize or register the cause.
Teachers weren’t allowed to “fire” the student. The system failed right there. Instead, administrators demanded falsification from the teachers, who were told by their “watchdog” they can’t have students “fail” aka “be fired”. It was a top down command and it was reckless and inconsiderate of the well being of the students as a whole. Education begins in the home and with the teacher. ONLY when their is a failure should the next level up be involved.
The system is failing, not the students. The health of the student body belongs to the teachers and parents alone. Everybody else involved is simply there to verify the students’ account, teachers’ account, and parents’ account when there is a PROBLEM. Parents, teachers, AND students should be very vocal when a student is failing. When working correctly, problems are dealt with where they need to be. At the teacher level. Ideally, the teachers should only be able to be “fired” by their ‘class’, not any individual student or situation – aside from any ga laws being broken.
Administrators should be fired only by their teachers for poor reinforcement of their teachers. The watchdogs, Hall – and council, should not be fired. If you want a fair watchdog, they MUST be above reproach or discipline. Think about this, the Supreme Court of the U.S. is a forever paid position. Once there, you can only step down or be removed by… never happened, so let’s not even go there. Think about why we know we can trust them to be above reproach.
GA schools need good teachers. Students as individuals can be idiots. Students as a body know overall if they are learning. Just ask them. As a substitute teacher I’ve walked into many a classroom at every grade level. I know the teacher I’m replacing by the behavior of their class within the first two minutes of the students walking in the door by their behavior, before they realize there is a substitute in the room. I know the truth in all the classrooms I’ve been to. Student – substitute confidentiality kicks in at this point. Know that, as a substitute, I know which schools are short of supplies, whose classrooms are a creative lab, the conservative den, the lawless wild west, the rewards driven, the droll, the meager, catered to, beaten down, fastidiously studious, adventurous, inventive, quiet… I have eaten your school lunches. I have been where you are not allowed to go. I have measured all the classes I have taught. In each their own way, I’ve seen the successes and failures of the many different methods of teaching. In the end the success of the student as a body is the best reflection of the teacher when adequately supported by the Administrators overseen by a proper watchdog. It’s just teaching, and some of us are compelled, unlike others, to do so. We ’see’ it in each other, and it is reflected by the the students we’ve taught. Just ask the students (or a favored substitute teacher – off the record) how a teacher or school is doing.
NOTHING BEGINS OR ENDS WITH ADMINISTRATORS. or teachers. Look to the students for the answers. Trust me, little Johnny is more than happy to go on about what goes on in the classroom as he does at home given the right ear to listen. – a substitute, not to be taken for the real thing.
testerbill
October 9th, 2011
2:28 pm
I’ve been a teacher, and I’ve been fired. Even though I felt it was wrong, I walked away and did not fight it. Just got another teaching job elsewhere. The current system is broken and needs to be fixed. If I have a group of non-readers, the test scores of the group will not go up regardless of what I do, so basing my evaluation on test scores is ludicris.
In the business workplace you don’t have the protection that teachers and other union workers have. You can be laid off for no other reason than the boss doesn’t like you, and many are.
New York pays laid off teachers for up to three years after they are fired, and currently over 400 are collecting full pay.
HB
October 9th, 2011
2:33 pm
This is what happens when Democrats get their way. THe democrats are traitors and are always more concerned with getting benefits over teaching kids. The teachers union are traitors protecting the worst teachers and preventing good new one from being hired. THE TWO BIGGEST CONtRIBUTORS TO POOR WORKPLACE PerFORMANCE ARE TENURE AND SIZE OF RESUME AS CRITERIA FOR KEEPING YOUR JOB. WE SPEND MORE THAN ANY OTHER NATION PER CHILD> THIS IS THE FAULT OF UNIONS AND DEMOCRATS AND OUR AFFIRMATIVE ACTION TRAITOR IN THE WHITE HOUSE. BLING BLING BARY you MORON YOU TRAITOR
just another teacher..
October 9th, 2011
2:34 pm
As a teacher at an award winning school, I will receive a bad review if I do not work a 10 hour day, “volunteer” at after school/Saturday events, join after school committees, write grants for each committee and call parents on my drive home. These additional hours are required and therefore do not improve my evaluation. Most teachers receive good evaluations because they do what it is required of us. Teachers receive amazing intrinsic rewards but personally I’m exhausted, have no planning/preparation time and my students are the ones who lose if I don’t rise above this nonsense.
ER doc
October 9th, 2011
2:45 pm
Here is my take after reading this balderdash: Teachers are never to blame. It’s incompetent parents, administrators and students. Teachers don’t fail. Only students fail. Deliver teachers better students and teachers would never err. I’m going to the hospital tomorrow and informing the ER admissions staff: Give me only patients with minor injuries. No idiots who sliced off their hands with a chainsaw. I won’t lose a single patient. I’ll be a great doctor with a great record because I will only treat the healthiest patients.
It's what Maureen wanted
October 9th, 2011
2:46 pm
Let’s go back to what DLink said: If you want to REALLY improve education, what would be MOST effective.
Improving ways of holding the teacher “accountable” or ways of holding the students accountable?
DLink know the answer, as to most of us. But the problem is, holding the students accountable make us look at OURSELVES in the mirror.
And in the case of Maureen, it doesn’t pander to readers
An idea for Maureen
October 9th, 2011
2:56 pm
Maureen, why don’t you make an open records request for some of the teachers who were “dismissed” or resigned. What you may find is likely to catch your attention. In Cobb County, there are teachers who were placed on a PDP for a total of fewer of 20 days. Is this just, legal? After being railroaded and unfortunately NOT TENURED, the teachers have resigned. This is all with the then superintendent, Fred Sanderson, being made aware of the actions of the administrators. Remember, the devil is in the details. Open Records is your friend.
Richard Braswell
October 9th, 2011
3:07 pm
The issue of ‘poor results’ in the APS will not go away and approach to change will remain stagnant. That is, until, as a group the teachers out the real culprits in their midst, and the administrators that scratch holes in the soil as they ‘arrive’.
It's what Maureen wanted
October 9th, 2011
3:08 pm
HB why don’t you do some research on the Reading First program before spouting off on how much Republicans “care” about students.
As pathetic as the Democrats have been, why hasn’t the party that preaches “personal responsibility” done almost NOTHING to support teachers in matters of discipline?
Yes we expect the Democrats to be weak, ineffectual, and pathetic on that issue, but what’s the excuse for “law and order” Republicans?
HB? HB?
It's what Maureen wanted
October 9th, 2011
3:14 pm
Ok ER doc, let’s just give you a dose of your own medicine: Tell me, should your “effectiveness” be compared to that of another doctor based on the health of your patients in the ER, when the other doctor works exclusively with Olympic athletes?
We need a medic in the ER stat: Looks like we have an ER doc who just got hoisted on his own petard.(Do they really say “stat” or is that just the ones on TV?)
JL
October 9th, 2011
3:23 pm
There was no difficulty getting rid of Ashley Payne when the facebook pictures of her with a glass of wine in her hand came out. The teachers that caused a nationally-recognized cheating scandal though, those are the ones we can’t get rid of.
It's what Maureen wanted
October 9th, 2011
3:29 pm
Maybe if Ashely Payne had Fair Dismissal rights, she wouldn’t have had to have gone through that.
Hmm….
ar26pt2
October 9th, 2011
3:39 pm
We’ve got to be able to effectively eliminate bad apples. Education has enough challenges without creating its own. Good teachers need not fear (this is 95% of you). By the banter here most seem worried about subjective “unfounded” attacks from administrators. Would you then favor objective standards for performance? Or does this teaching “profession” not answer to any standard?
northatlantateacher
October 9th, 2011
3:43 pm
“It often takes a year to build a case against a teacher for low performance, but by law the case usually can’t include actions from previous school years. In other words, once a teacher signs a contract for the new school year, problems from the past can’t be used as evidence to fire them.”
That answers a lot of questions. No wonder ineffective teachers are rarely fired. There’s one in my school right now, making more money than I do.
melanie
October 9th, 2011
3:44 pm
I do not hear or see any one asking the question of what about the child? If you have a teacher that cannot teach, control a classroom, is out all the time etc..what happens to the children in that classroom? What does this type of teacher or lack there of have on the child? At what price is the child over how long & how much $ it takes to get get rid of teachers who can’t teach? Ever since the Federal Government took over the school systems they have gone down hill. We need the school system in the hands of the state, no the government. Teachers need to be fired for not doing their job plain & simple. Other people are fired for less in any other job, but by God it takes 8 bad reports before they even consider putting it up to the board. Sex between teacher/child should not only be a firing but jail time as well. I am tired of seeing teachers not doing their job that they are hired to do. I am tired of seeing teachers only working a few short years & then they are fully vested & protected by the union & they school board. It should not take this long to fire any one let alone a teacher. Our school system is in so much turmoil & people don’t understand why so many parents put their children in private schools. They will do with out just to make sure their children are getting the education they deserve & not have to worry about all the politics involved in the public schools.
Pluto
October 9th, 2011
3:44 pm
I work with incompetent teachers and dubiously qualified administrators. Who is in charge with watching the store? Are those charged with evaluating teachers qualified because they took a leadership course? Come on the whole system is flawed; I mean with the politics involved who is going to make an objective evaluation of personnel? I teach at a public school and my daughter comes to my school with me to matriculate. She has a God Awful teacher in the subject that I teach BUT he is the best of the worst. Will he be axed? NO! Admin knows the deal but is reluctant to act. Who is hurt the most? Don’t give me the patent line that it is for the kids because it is not.
MB
October 9th, 2011
3:46 pm
As I remember the case, Ashley Payne was pressured to resign quickly (to protect her teaching certificate, presumably). Likely that Barrow County residents have paid some hefty legal fees on that hasty administrative blunder!
Katz: Amen, Amen, Amen!! If administrators knew they were supervising teachers who’d likely be their boss next year – and that they’d be living by the rules they set for teachers themselves soon – would bet rules would be more reasonable and discipline more consistent.
Principaled: New principal came into the school and had the teacher in the radar in a couple of weeks. He’s following through on expectations and consequences. Sorry, but some administrators don’t “appear” weak, they ARE weak. As someone else said, some are just politicians and they just need to run for public office, not pretend they can run a school. (And central office staff need to identify and remove those weak links.)
Rural Parent
October 9th, 2011
3:54 pm
School systems use contracts to lock teachers into a no-way-out system. School systems with poor leadership, which would otherwise lose teachers over the summer to more lucrative or “better” districts, get certified personnel to sign contracts in March or April, ususally before the budget for next year is finalized; then cut their pay.
Look at many rural counties in south Georgia. Peach County teachers took an 8 day cut in their contracts (not furloughs) after they signed their contract, all coaching supplements were cut without the coaches knowing, and the contract included a clause that stipulated teachers could pay $5,000 to get out of their contract.
Talk about no way out!
Keith
October 9th, 2011
3:58 pm
Eliminate the contracts. If they’re lucky they can get on at a convenience store.
MB
October 9th, 2011
4:01 pm
How about the morale in rural counties where people see jobs created for administrators and central office folks while teachers have to sub for each other in their planning periods? It happens in our larger systems as well, but it sticks more in the craw of teachers furloughed ten days and worrying when they are sick because they’re inconveniencing their colleagues. If you can’t afford full teacher contracts or subs, how can you afford administrative personnel not paid in QBE allotments? Disgusting!
Pincipaled
October 9th, 2011
4:02 pm
MB. Believe I said that many are weak. Your new principal will back down one the CO staff and lawyers back him down. Wait and see. Our hands are tied like you wouldn’t belief in many ( not all) cases.
Sallie
October 9th, 2011
4:02 pm
In my experience bosses are likely to move too slowly to fire problem employees, not to quickly. All of the pressure from the disruption, questions from other employees our own internal hope for imporovement or compassion, ,tends to make us slow in makeing the decison to fire poor performing employees.
We do not need to further burden the system with more encumbering rules to protect poor performers.
school observer
October 9th, 2011
4:02 pm
@ principaled. You are absolutely correct. We have less job protection that the very people who we may be seeking to fire. If you are a strong leader who finds that you have a group of shiftless, lazy and barely competent teachers and you work hard to rid your school of such teachers, then you become the subject of scrutiny. The problem with schools exist at every level, teachers, principals, and the central office. The biggest problem is that school is more about being an employment agency for the county , than being the source of educational opportunity for children. It is the lack of job security that hinders many administrators from doing the right thing, Every time you work to rid the district of bad teachers , you risk your job. It takes courage, conviction and pray to work as a school administrator today. Those of you who think that teachers need protection have no idea about what goes on in schools today. You would be shocked at the immaturity and bad behavior that is displayed by college educated professional people, called teachers. Good teachers don’t need protection because they do their jobs and they do it well. If you have ever been an administrator then you know we spend too much of our time dealing with issues and problems created by unethical, mean spirited and incompetent teachers who don’t appear to like children, rather than supporting, rewarding, recognizing and encouraging the great ones.
Pincipaled
October 9th, 2011
4:04 pm
Need to add – I do agree that many who are chosen these days are just climbers with negligible leadership skills. Have to look at the supers who choose them though.
gtfanfrom1951
October 9th, 2011
4:05 pm
If YOU ARE OLD AND THEY WANT TO HIRE A YOUNGER TEACHER AT HALF THE PAY THEY WILL FORCE YOU OUT!!!!!
It's what Maureen wanted
October 9th, 2011
4:06 pm
Good teachers need not fear (this is 95% of you)
Really ar26pt2 and are you just as willing, to follow your logic, suspend the 4th Amendment to the Constitution because good citizens need not fear it, just the 5% of law breakers?
Dekalb taxpayer
October 9th, 2011
4:08 pm
If removing poor teachers is unavoidably difficult (and it may be), why isn’t more attention given to qualifications during the hiring process? On this blog I often read posts from people who claim to be teachers who do not have minimal communication skills. This is something that is necessary for any teacher—not just English teachers. Why can’t a simple reading/writing test be given to prospective teachers? Much better to weed them out beforehand.
Tired of mess
October 9th, 2011
4:09 pm
@ Dr. John Trotter,
You don’t seem to recognize that you have can have bad teachers just like you can have bad administrators. If there were no unethical, and incompetent teachers, then you would have no job. Aren’t you glad there are a lot of bad teachers out there?. Maybe you should be fair and represent the bad administrators too!
school observer
October 9th, 2011
4:17 pm
@ principaled. I agree, some administrators are lacking in skill , and if you look at the super who pushes them through, then you definitely should look at the board who hired the super. It all comes down to apathetic voters who don’t participate in school board elections. You get what you vote for!!
It's what Maureen wanted
October 9th, 2011
4:20 pm
By your logic ar26pt2 why not have a “benchmark” vote of confidence a principal should face from staff every year as good administrators would have “nothing to fear from 95%” of their staff?
school observer
October 9th, 2011
4:24 pm
@what Maureen wanted. Ashley Payne did have fair dismissal rights. She resigned.
It's what Maureen wanted
October 9th, 2011
4:28 pm
My understanding was she hadn’t taught long enough to get tenure. If that’s the case, and she resigned, she got some really bad advice.
Louise
October 9th, 2011
4:33 pm
First, most teachers I know work 12 hour days and on weekends to give this sub par performance you allege. Let’s also mention the 10 minute lunches and trying to find time to go the bathroom.
Second , let’s talk about other professionals – yes, teaching is a profession – should we blast them on the front page of the paper.
Third, I no- longer purchase the AJC for this very reason. I am weary of reading insulting articles about a profession I have given 20 years of my life to.
Try another spin — positive remarks about a profession that requires so much time and energy without the financial rewards.
Better yet ,spend a day at a school and observe the future teachers hold in their hands.
Another Math Teacher
October 9th, 2011
5:02 pm
school observer:
“Good teachers don’t need protection because they do their jobs and they do it well.”
When you make statements such as this, you lose all credibility.
Education Insider
October 9th, 2011
5:04 pm
One would think that you would do everything in your power not to hire a bad teacher. Unfortunately since the only criteria schools use to hire is a college transcript, a teaching certificate and a “good gut feeling”, they hire nearly anyone who shows up. Teachers come in to little to no induction process. They have job descriptions, if there is one, that rarely match expectations. They are rarely observed. Little attention is paid to putting together the right mentor with the right mentee.
Additionally schools reluctance to press charges when they do find wrong doing allow those who steal from the system and thus from children to continue to muddle the candidate pool. Yesterday I found where the “new principal” hired by a local school in my area was removed from his previous position as the principal of a charter school for financial hanky panky. Since that would not show up on a background check we now recommend to our clients doing a simple Google check. That is how the board member in Desoto, TX found out about Kathy Augustine…who made $188K for one days’ work.
jd
October 9th, 2011
5:09 pm
If you have to fire someone, you made a bad hiring decision — Focus on improving the hiring and the rest will take care of itself.
Oh, and that means we have to fire the folks (the board and the super) who made those hiring decisions!
robert nash
October 9th, 2011
5:34 pm
why can’t we all just join a government union at some level and we will be taken care of from cradle to
grave..see how easy it is to fix all our problems… retire early with great benefits and 50 or 60 days off a year with pay…
lovestoteach
October 9th, 2011
5:38 pm
I teach in a rural county in south Georiga and my husband is a school administrator. He works tirelessly to try and do what is best for his students, faculty, and community. Most nights are a warmed up dinner for him, then back to school for whatever he needs to be at, while my principal leaves school at 3:30 after having turned out all the lights and locked the door to the office! My husband has gotten rid of teachers that needed to find another career, but only after working with them through PDP, mentoring, and support. I believe that all teachers have worked with other teachers who were less than effective. If you want to know who the good teachers are, look at whose classes teachers put their own children. However, please don’t blame all administrators for the problems of firing incompetent teachers. As mad as I get knowing that I am getting the same pay as a moron done the hall, it galls me to no end to know that my principal is paid more than my husband who does a far superior job. But as has been mentioned by other posters, too many systems are seen as an employment opprotunity for whole families, friends, and assorted bubbas. When you have supers who have 3 years of teaching experience(and that was in PE), I guess not much will change. Education needs to change to reflect the increasing demands on our country and our world. It will take courage, insight, and intelligence to accomplish. I am not sure we have that in our current leaders.
lovestoteach
October 9th, 2011
5:39 pm
should have read “down”
catlady
October 9th, 2011
5:55 pm
When I saw the headline, my immediate rejoinder was “Bull****”. There are poor teachers. Those who are allowed to remain are allowed to remain by poor administrators, too lazy or clueless to do the work. There are other teachers who are drummed out to make room for favored ones (coach’s wife), or for family members, or because they challenge the poor administrator.
What I have seen, in almost 40 years, is teachers who have been too cowed, too browbeaten, those whose input has been too summarily dismissed. I have, during that time, been around about a dozen who should have been dismissed. Wish I had the same proportionate experience with everyone else!
bootney farnsworth
October 9th, 2011
6:00 pm
for every 1 competent administrator, there are a dozen bulling autocrats. yes, the current system makes it a pain to fire a poor teacher. but it is the ONLY protection the rest have from the tyranny of the incompetent political animals called administration
bootney farnsworth
October 9th, 2011
6:02 pm
@ robert nash
where do I find this mythical union?
I’d like to join it.
oh, wait – there isn’t one.
school observer
October 9th, 2011
6:05 pm
@another math teacher. Good teachers don’t need protection because they do their jobs, but if they do, due process takes care of that. Besides administrators are usually too preoccupied with the bad ones. If you read my comment you will see that I did concede that incompetence is at every level. I wouldn’t want to leave the many bad administrators out.
bootney farnsworth
October 9th, 2011
6:07 pm
@ school observer
in what universe?
bootney farnsworth
October 9th, 2011
6:09 pm
ultimately, all this boils down to a simple point:
in Georgia we don’t value our own product.
when you pay teachers this poorly and have such low
standards for hiring…
you get what you get
Mac
October 9th, 2011
6:10 pm
Keeping under performing teachers who have no clue how to manage a classroom is MORE COSTLY, and our children are paying the price!!!
Courtney
October 9th, 2011
6:14 pm
Bad teachers get fired. Bad principals get promoted to the front Office.
Trustbuster
October 9th, 2011
6:16 pm
Enter your comments here
The Fair Dismissal Act does not protect incompetent eductors. Georgia teachers have to pass certification exams and often attend training sessions on a regular basis to maintain their teaching credentials. The problem today is money which has always been an issue in the educational system. Increased pay and better benefits will increase teacher quality. Most professions pay more than education despite the downsizing and lay-offs in the private sector.
According to Diane Ratvitch standardized test scores are roughly the same in right-to-work states as union states. Very little disparity exists between performance and test scores. Compare how much money is being spent to warehouse an inmate in Georgia Corrections to educating a child grades K-12.
If you remember two years ago a budget shortfall triggered teacher lay-offs across the state. Some local districts manufactured the crisis in order to nonrenew educators that were unpopular with the system leaders. The Pelham City district was one such example. Now the district has become embroiled in a lawsuit with a former employee acting as a pro se litigant. According to the plantiff’s documentation the teacher was laid-off under false pretenses alledgedly due to budget cuts when no such fiscal crisis existed. The lawsuit was filed a year ago in the US Middle Georgia District Court. Some of charges lodged against the school district include a violation of the Sarbanes-Oxley Act, Georgia Open Records Act and misuse of public funds by a former football coach.
MB
October 9th, 2011
6:35 pm
Pincipaled @ 4:02pm “MB. Believe I said that many are weak. Your new principal will back down one the CO staff and lawyers back him down. Wait and see. Our hands are tied like you wouldn’t belief in many ( not all) cases.”
You may have MEANT to say many are weak, but what you actually said was: “Unfortunatley this is the reason so many principals seem weak or vindictive.” ARE and SEEM are very different, particularly in context of your post, Thanks for the concession that many are now political climbers; that was exactly the case there. Three years of IRR “classroom experience” did NOT qualify that man to be an instructional leader.
And I doubt your prediction will come true – the new principal has already done some serious clearing out of teachers at two other schools in our district and people know HE means business. (Most of the deadwood at those schools became aware that they needed to move on without the need for non-renewal action. I’ve know of several cases where admins don’t have to go through the entire process; they monitored closely and actually started the documentation..Sadly, much as with children, idle threats reinforce rather than eliminate negative behaviors.)
MB
October 9th, 2011
6:37 pm
Correction: I’ve KNOWN of several cases where admins didn’t have to go through the entire process. (Obviously reading glasses necessary, lol.)
Another Math Teacher
October 9th, 2011
6:40 pm
school observer :
I had a nice long reply ready to go but I’m just going to assume you worked in a district/school with good administrators. I did not have that luxury. Many do not have that luxury. You probably believe that good teachers are protected, but that is just not true. Due process only slows it down.
Dr. Craig Spinks/ Georgians for Educational Excellence
October 9th, 2011
6:41 pm
The costs involved in removing ineffective teachers pales in comparison to the damage done to our kids and their futures by such teachers.
P.S. Are the financial costs of removing poor teachers really that great? Or is “high cost” the excuse used by effete school boards and their attorneys to avoid displaying their school systems’ “dirty laundry” in full public view?
Retired teacher
October 9th, 2011
6:58 pm
I had an evaluation one time that was ALL NI. But, I knew the law–and you can not observe a teacher and evaluate them while showing a Video. How to Cut Hair–was the name of it in a Cosmetology HS class. The administrator was new and had no idea what he was doing. Of course, I had it overturned. New evaluation and that time all S–and I was reading a test aloud to a group of students–CAN NOT evaluate while giving a test (or on a field trip either). Without Title 20 rights–you can fire a teacher just because your cousin needs a job.
Thank You Sonny for restoring Teacher Rights. I believe only one state does not have them.
Thank you Michael for all those Teacher’s Rights Workshops.
Due Process is necessary — not always for “bad” teachers but for vindictive Administrators, parents, etc. Seldom has anything to do with instruction. Plenty of APS teachers might not be guilty; some have already been cleared. Tried to tell for years and no one would listen.
old teacher
October 9th, 2011
7:03 pm
Here is a prime example of the necessity of due process for teachers:
Many years ago in a rural Georgia county, the superintendent and some of the school board members were set on closing down the largest high school in the county and consolidating it with a school in a less populated area.
The residents of the area were very upset and planned to protest at the school board meeting. Many of the affected teachers were also planning to attend the board meeting protest since their jobs would be affected–not to mention that many of these teachers were also parents or grandparents of the students who would be affected.
This superintendent threatened (in a regional newspaper) to fire any teachers who came to protest against his plan. Fortunately, he was unable to carry out that threat because of due process rights.
Unfortunately, public school is highly potliticized, and any time politics are involved corruption and abuse of power are not far behind. No one in this country should ever have to fear losing his job by exercising his constitutional rights. Due process protections are necessary.
MB
October 9th, 2011
7:07 pm
Dr. Spinks: Let’s do some math. Someone who has averaged a salary of $76,565 a year over the past three years (according to open.ga.gov) was having her poor performance documented by other teachers more than twelve years ago. If adequate administrative follow-through had taken place, and she had moved to another field, the system likely would have hired someone with much less experience.
For ease of calculation, let’s say that replacement person would have earned an average of $40K per year (year 5 on our current salary schedule) and the existing employee, since she was on the plateau over the 22-year mark throughout that time, averaged $75K. Looking at a twelve-year period, her salary totalled $900,000 while another person’s salary total would have been $480,000. See what procrastination can cost? This school could have had at minimum a competent person in place and saved the system $420,000 over 12 years. And the impact on hundreds – no thousands – of students: incalculable!
It's what Maureen wanted
October 9th, 2011
7:12 pm
Notice how many cases of GOOD teachers being protected by Fair Dismissal have been mentioned here, and yet those who would abolish Fair Dismissal have NOTHING to say about protecting these teacher from retaliation?
Oh but I forgot, according to Maureen retaliation is so rare, it’s hardly worth mentioning.
@Retired Teacher
October 9th, 2011
7:17 pm
As bad as your observation experience sounds, imagine an “observation” with more than a dozen NI that allegedly took place when the students were at the OPPOSITE end of the building with ANOTHER teacher.
And people question why teachers feel they need Fair Dismissal? Seriously?
TruthBe
October 9th, 2011
8:19 pm
So does hiring their sorry a$$es. The Atlanta Public School Sysytem is a joke. Beverly Hall should be in jail with the other corrupt teachers. And the Atlanta School Board and it’s Counselors also. Clayton and dekalb counties too.
HMS
October 9th, 2011
8:33 pm
–It often takes a year to build a case against a teacher for low performance, but by law the case usually can’t include actions from previous school years. In other words, once a teacher signs a contract for the new school year, problems from the past can’t be used as evidence to fire them.
The second phrase is simply not true. If the documentation supports the dismissal, it can easily extend back more than one year. It often does take more than a year to establish that the teacher shows a pattern of incompetence, insubordination, willful neglect of duties, etc, and has been given adequate opportunity and/or support to correct the behavior, and has failed to make adequate progress.
The process may appear cumbersome, but it is necessary to protect teachers from arbitrary dismissal for political or personal reasons not related to job performance.
school observer
October 9th, 2011
9:04 pm
@bootney farnsworth.In an alternate universe, where we all hold every one accountable for the education of our children.
Dr. John Trotter
October 9th, 2011
9:45 pm
@ Tired of Mess: No, it’s not incompetent teachers who keep us busy; it’s the incompetent and mean-spirited administrators. Just a slight mental adjustment…then you might understand the problem. There are indeed some incompetent teachers, but this is not the overwhelming problem. The overwhelming problems in public education are (1) defiant and disruptive students; (2) irate and irresponsible parents; and (3) angry and abusive administrators. Throw systematic cheating onto the heap and then you have the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse of Public Education.
why
October 9th, 2011
10:28 pm
OK Maureen, you are airing this article on the difficulty of firing inept teachers. So how big a deal is it anyway in the total scope? What percent of teachers (other than APC recent scandal) are we talking about anyway? Is it 10%, 20%, 70% of the teaching force? Is it 1%, 5%? Give us a magnitude so we can see just how rotten teachers are in Georgia. We know there are cases, but how big is the problem? How many? And how are these protections different from firing individuals in companies, corporations, government officials, police officers, or politicians? Trust me, I know for a fact that firing or “releasing” a teacher because student headcount does not justify the position is a very easy thing and that is how most teachers are let go. Tell us the whole story and especially why teachers are singled out for this type of story. It can only be because there is a huge number of incompetent teachers who deserve to be fired. That’s the implication. I’m sure you and the AJC have the data to support the rationale for this headline story, otherwise you are just participating in the current effort to bring down the teaching profession and blame teachers for the downfall of the current generation. Tell us Maureen, what motivates this story? Boosting the AJC publicity? Tell us true.
Maureen Downey
October 9th, 2011
10:39 pm
@Why, Not sure of your point as to why teachers are “singled out for this type of story.” Over the years, the AJC has done investigatory series on mortgage companies, DOT, car dealers, prisons, child welfare, hospitals, insurance companies, banks and legislators. (Those are the series that come to mind, but there are many others.)
Education is the largest investment made by taxpayers, so it should not be surprising that the AJC would look at teacher quality since personnel represents 80 percent of education costs.
Maureen
Political Mongrel
October 9th, 2011
11:05 pm
I have repeatedly seen teachers let go by administrators who were willing to do the correct paperwork and who knew that they would be backed up. I have also seen two administrators who repeatedly tried to push out teachers they didn’t like but couldn’t document their “errors”. The laws that are in place work the majority of the time for administrators who bother to follow proper procedure AND ACTUALLY CAN FIND LEGITIMATE THINGS TO DOCUMENT OTHER THAN DISAGREEMENTS OVER TEACHING STYLES OR PERSONALITY CONFLICTS. Administrators who complain that they can’t do it or it’s too difficult should be examined for their effectiveness and their commitment to doing the jobs they were hired for.
Political Mongrel
October 9th, 2011
11:07 pm
Sorry. Above the two administrators who couldn’t document while trying to boot personnel were red-flagged, examined, and given the boot themselves. I didn’t complete the thought.
Political Mongrel
October 9th, 2011
11:11 pm
@Robert Nash: I don’t know where you come from, but the situation you describe does not exist in Georgia for teachers. Period.
Gwinnnettian
October 10th, 2011
12:35 am
Dr. Trotter, You are ingreat form tonight!
Dr. John Trotter
October 10th, 2011
1:20 am
I picked up a copy of the AJC in Publix this evening. I read Jaime’s article. Very misleading. Each time she mentioned the appeals, the implication was that teachers are paid during this appeal process. This is not the case. Once the local school board fires a teacher, the teacher’s pay stops, even if the teacher appeals the case. Using APS as an example of the costs of firing teachers is also skewed. Everything will cost more in Atlanta because of the incompetence of the schoo system’s central office. The folks in the central office drag out everything. They don’t get in a hurry about anything. Remember that this is the school system that “lost” $75,000,000.00 of E-rate monies.
It was obvious that the AJC had an agenda. The AJC already had the outcome determined. The quotes and references were just filler. The clear agenda is that there is an agenda to do away with due process for teaches in Georgia. The AJC will “help” in this effort. Teachers, realize this: The AJC is not your friend. This is the latest numbskull attempt to improve public education. May I repeat our yet to be disputed mantra at MACE? You cannot have good learning conditions until you first have good teaching conditions.
Dr. Craig Spinks/ Georgians for Educational Excellence
October 10th, 2011
2:15 am
Dr. John,
I have a specially-designed pitchfork.
Carpetbagger
October 10th, 2011
5:14 am
“You need to put your daughter in public school. We need families like yours to help public education and turn it around.”
That was four years ago and I nixed that idea immediately. I’m glad I did. I guarantee that the debate of poor Georgia education will be around for years to come. This has been going on for decades and what are the results? Up north they would be rioting over this issue.
David Hunt
October 10th, 2011
6:07 am
There needs to be a revolution in the processes of teacher and administration evaluation standards. Until that happens, the conflict and finger pointing will continue with little or no real progress. The current system is ‘top-down’ where one supposedly competent person in an upper level position determines the value/competence/promotion status of his or her subordinates. It is the common practice on industry in all but a few rare instances.
The Gates Foundation is engaged in developing and testing a ‘bottom-up’ evaluation methodology that is showing very promising results. The theory is simple. Students know who the great teachers are. Scientifically survey 300 kids, weighting responses based on the individual student’s academic performance, and you have an INFORMED evaluation. Allow teachers to evaluate their administrators and administration focus and efforts will naturally evolve to ones where SERVICE and SUPPORT become the hallmarks of administration.
Just take the traditional organizational chart and turn it upside down. The superintendent is there to serve his key operation staff … central office exists to serve the local school administration … the school admin staff exists to serve the teachers in their critical roll with the true patrons of our education efforts, the students. Trust our children and the processes of well designed scientific surveys and they will tell us who the great teachers are.
We need to THINK our way out of the current mess.
Mike
October 10th, 2011
8:04 am
The real solution? Until which time the federal government exits the arena of our children’s education, GET YOUR KIDS OUT OF GOVERNMENT SCHOOLS. There is no other answer.
Parent watching closely
October 10th, 2011
8:09 am
Fulton County School System is supposed to have their petition for Charter System Status out any day now…in it, one of the main ideas is NEW AND IMPROVED DISMISSAL PROCEDURES FOR TEACHERS. It sounds like they plan to waive Fair Dismissal Law. So, watch the good teachers who have the flexibility to go elsewhere depart asap. Thanks, FCSS, for promoting a policy that will leave us with those who aren’t able to find work elsewhere! See the talent drain away and watch those of us with means enroll our children elsewhere.
What I can’t stand about Jamie’s article is how many times it said teachers can be dismissed for ONLY eight reasons. Seems to me those eight reasons are fairly encompassing, especially with the first two being incompetence and insubordination and the last one being something about any other just and sufficient cause. Though it may be more cumbersome than firing the burger flipper at McDonald’s, my sense is that GOOD administrators who have courage and are WILLING TO TAKE THEIR TIME, PROVIDE A PDP, AND DOCUMENT, coupled with a STRONG Human Resources dept that they know will back them up, can fire teachers who are not successful without an overabundance of trouble (just like many big corporations will jump through the right hoops as they carefully fire). I also wonder where the stats are on what percent of teachers actually take legal action beyond their right to hearing? I bet it is a very low number yet that “fear” and their own incompetence/lack of courage is what keeps the teachers who should be let go hanging around. We need to look at administrators (as others have mentioned) and the role of the big fat salary takers in HR who aren’t doing their jobs.
catlady
October 10th, 2011
8:26 am
Dr. Trotter: On target again! I am also highly distressed with what seems to me to be either deliberate bias or ignorance by the AJC on public school matters. And it seems to be increasing!
November 6, 2012
October 10th, 2011
9:11 am
Folks, we need to start paying attention to what’s happening.
Remember to VOTE RESPONSIBILITY ON NOVEMBER 6, 2012
After being interviewed by the school administration, the prospective teacher said:
‘Let me see if I’ve got this right.
‘You want me to go into that room with all those kids, correct their disruptive behavior, observe them for signs of abuse, monitor their dress habits, censor their T-shirt messages, and instill in them a love for learning.
‘You want me to check their backpacks for weapons, wage war on drugs and sexually transmitted diseases, and raise their sense of self esteem and personal pride.
‘You want me to teach them patriotism and good citizenship, sportsmanship and fair play, and how to register to vote, balance a checkbook, and apply for a job.
‘You want me to check their heads for lice, recognize signs of antisocial behavior, and make sure that they all pass the final exams.
‘You also want me to provide them with an equal education regardless of their handicaps, and communicate regularly with their parents in English, Spanish or any other language, by letter, telephone, newsletter, and report card.
‘You want me to do all this with a piece of chalk, a blackboard, a bulletin board, a few books, a big smile, and a starting salary that qualifies me for food stamps.
‘You want me to do all this and then you tell me . . . I Can’t Pray!
teacher&mom
October 10th, 2011
9:45 am
@Dr. John & catlady:
As I left church yesterday morning, the following advertisement blared from my radio…”Incompetent teachers cost the tax payers millions. Pick up today’s copy of the AJC for the entire story.”
Most people are NOT going to rush to the news stand to buy a copy. Instead, the AJC and Ms. Downey placed another nail in the coffin of teachers and public opinion. The impression left by the sensationalized advertisement was incredibly harmful, uninformed, and off-base.
art
October 10th, 2011
10:03 am
In the real world if you fail to produce you are fired !
Teachers should have the same standard.
November 6, 2012
October 10th, 2011
10:10 am
@catlady
October 10th, 2011
8:26 am
Dr. Trotter: On target again! I am also highly distressed with what seems to me to be either deliberate bias or ignorance by the AJC on public school matters. And it seems to be increasing!
To Catlady – Several words come to mind – Liberalism, Arne Duncan, George Soros and lastly, but certainly not leastly – A muslim, anti-american socialist in the WH that is using Chicago thuggery to try to control the media, including the very liberal AJC (on the AJC, he’s doing a great job).
Remember, VOTE RESPONSIBLY ON NOVEMBER 6, 2012
Have to be anonymous...I'm being monitored at my school
October 10th, 2011
10:14 am
Art-
Fair enough.
What is my product? Explain to me the “product” of education.
What does it look like? What does it do? Are they all the same? If they are different, do I get fired? If they are all the same, do I get a raise?
Dr. John Trotter
October 10th, 2011
10:16 am
@ art: You are making an assumption. You assume that because an administrative a$$es who is more bent on power than quality teaching only recommends the non-renewal of a bad teacher’s contract. Wrong assumption. Many, many times good teachers are terminated simply because they refuse to be mindless boobs for an egomaniacal administrator or refuse to put out sexually for him or her or refuse to go along with systematic cheating. I know that this may shock you, but this is really what occurs in some of our schools. Due process protects good teachers from bad administrators.
I hope that this will post. Second try.
Dr. John Trotter
October 10th, 2011
10:18 am
Please forgive the typo above. I was trying to tone down the post so that it would post. Ha!
APS Dedicated Teacher Still
October 10th, 2011
10:23 am
Thank God for people like Dr. Trotter and Dr. Craig Spinks.
When you’re an older teacher and the deck gets stacked against you, its hard to fight back. But, fight we do and especially when students are wronged along with us. And my young whipper snappers, we get sick…we are older after all. But, we still have to work just like you. So, don’t get mad because we have to see the doctor a little more; we try to get bandaged up as quickly as possible so that we can return and fight again.
At some point, you have to stop worrying about your job and just do the right thing. If you are a good teacher, do your best. What goes around comes around; look at the Dr. Hall regime.
There are a number of people out there who cannot teach. They can gripe but they cannot teach. If they could, they would be in the classroom. They want to drive good teachers, especially the ones who have the audacity to talk back, out of the classroom. We who care, …do get stressed out, sick and saddled with stress related illnesses. I say to you, don’t give up and don’t listen to nay sayers.
Many administrators cannot teach. If they could, they would still be in the classroom. Strong teachers who don’t bow down to crazy administrators become targets. We get nit-picked to death…NI’d and our contracts are not renewed. No one wants to look at their very own dirty laundry, APS case in point.
And, YES; we do get RETALIATED against. And yes, we do finally sometimes sucuumb and just resign. It is the only way to stay sane, sometimes…
Anonmom
October 10th, 2011
10:49 am
fyi — DCSS’ legal bills appear to be approaching around $20 million out of local tax dollars…. it’s a lot of unchecked dollars that could be going into the classroom if we had a better system of checks and balances and media that was a bit more inquisitive on what was really happening….
Neil Murray
October 10th, 2011
10:54 am
Y’all spend too much time focused on Atlanta. In rural South Georgia, schools often fire teachers for grossly unreasonable causes, often in the middle of a contract. One of my Georgia Southern students told of having five teachers in a year; another reported that his teacher was booted out for making fun of the school’s location next to a hog farm!
John Adams
October 10th, 2011
11:08 am
@Dr. John Trotter: While putting it in your own inimitable way, you’ve certainly hit the nail on the head yet again. As someone who’s now been on both sides of the Fair Dismissal table, i.e., both as a big school system HR director and now defending teachers for Educators First, the law definitely should NOT be watered down, let alone repealed. The vast majority of public school teachers do a good job, and they deserve to be insulated from the exact concerns you cited: parent complaints, disruptive students, an obsessive focus on test scores, and, yes, even the occasional administrator run amok. Fair Dismissal, flawed though it may be, at least gives veteran teachers some measure of protection and offers a reasonable balance between the needs of the individual teacher and in the interests of the district as an employer. As you wisely pointed out, local school administrators need tenure at least as much as teachers, so that they can back up good teachers by telling parents “no” without fear of repercussions from the central office. In my experience, APs (virtually all of whom are non-tenured by now) are non-renewed at about 2-3 times the per capita rate of classroom teachers. In general, we need to stop focusing our school reform efforts primarily on blaming teachers. Given the raw materials with which they have to work and the relative lack of student discipline in schools, today’s teachers are generally doing an excellent job under the circumstances.
Jenna
October 10th, 2011
11:10 am
If Fair Dismissal is taken away…take away the contract and allow teachers to leave anytime during the school year like a “regular” job….see how long that lasts in a good economy.
Good Mother
October 10th, 2011
11:31 am
The rest of us — the non-teachers — don’t have guaranteed jobs. We in the private sector can be dismissed for any reason and no reason at all.
Teachers need to get the 411 that their job is a good one and they need to be thankful .
There is a huge recession out here (in case teachers haven’t noticed)…so get with it or get out of the procession.
Quit whining. Start working.
Tony
October 10th, 2011
12:14 pm
Speaking out of both sides of your mouth – The AJC and Maureen Downey just published a critique of schools for having too many new teachers. This is another example of the double-speak that the media and businesses are using to malign teachers who work hard every day.
The short answer is YES we can fire poor teachers, even those who have been around. Since politics can get involved in the process, it is fair for teachers to have a certain level of protection. When it comes right down to the brass tacks of the firing process, it is not the principals or superintendents who fire the poor teachers. It is the board of education. They are the only ones who can take that action. Most cases of keeping poor teachers in the classroom can be easily linked to boards of education who lack the will to fire the low-performing teachers.
However, it is my position that the percentage of teachers who are low-performing and deserve to be fired is actually much lower than you are making it out to be. After all, if you read your own articles, you know the many teachers quit after the first or second year of teaching. These are usually the ones that can’t cut it in the classrooms. They are convinced to resign and move on. Sometimes, their contracts are non-renewed. Sometimes they are let go through other means. The bottom line is this – schools do a pretty good job of rooting out the poorest quality teachers.
Not a cheater
October 10th, 2011
1:12 pm
Teaching is like many other governments jobs. There is little accountability if you are unable or unwilling to perform the job you were hired to do. Protections were built to prevent workers from being fired for political reasons but are now used to protect the grossly incompetent. So failing teachers and school administrators, as well as other government employees are allowed to continue because it is too difficult to get rid of them. Certainly some administrators would try to get rid of teachers they do not like—but that situation would be no more common than it is in the private sector. Government jobs at all levels have become a form of welfare—one someone has the job it is theirs almost for life. During my teaching career I came across several incompetent teachers but never saw one terminated for poor performance. They would never have succeeded in the private sector.
Maureen contradicts herself yet again
October 10th, 2011
1:18 pm
Notice Maureen’s claims that it isn’t an inflammatory piece, but then goes deathly silent when the “blame teachers first” ad is exposed by one of the posters here?
But of course do we really expect any less of Maureen, who thinks discipline isn’t a “pressing issue” retaliation is a rare occurrence, and Beverly Hall should remain the Superintendent of APS for the “stability” she provides?
At least Bookman had the integrity to admit the error of his ways in regard to Hall and show buyer remorse.
PB
October 10th, 2011
3:32 pm
Have we really gotten to the point where we want to do away with due process just because we have to pay for it. Do you trust the school administrators to do the right thing without oversight? Remember, it was the superintendent of Atlanta schools who was at the top of the list of wrong doers during the scandal. There were also principals on the list.
so much to do..so little time
October 10th, 2011
4:35 pm
Maureen…You are most welcome in my classroom for a day to really see and understand EVERYTHING we deal with above and beyond pray tell, the art of teaching.
Last one and I'm out
October 10th, 2011
4:44 pm
@ Dr. John Trotter. Don’t you get tired of defending incompetent and lazy teachers. I know they probably make up just a small percentage of teachers, but you still sound like you’re in denial about bad teachers. I would love to know the percentage of good teachers you actually represent. Please keep in mind that teachers, just as parents, students and administrators play a large part in the educational process. You seem to want to blame everyone except teachers. I suggest that if all involved took responsibility for their part in the process then we wouldn’t be in the mess we are in. Just wondering what school system were you an administrator, and if you were so great why aren’t you there, where you might do the most good. Instead of out on the fringes agitating and brewing mess.
APS Dedicated Teacher Still
October 10th, 2011
5:04 pm
Dr. Trotter uses his name, what about you?
Why focus on bad teachers and ignore the larger problems in education? | Get Schooled
October 11th, 2011
4:01 am
[...] I have received a lot of feedback on the ongoing AJC teacher quality series, much of critical toward the Sunday piece on how hard it is to fire ineffective teachers. (This series is subscriber only, so I can’t reproduce a lot of it here, but this is a sampling.) [...]
Jenna
October 11th, 2011
6:31 am
@Good Mother…I concur…so y not give teachers the opportunity to leave anytime they want to like on a regular job? Would you like that? Would u like your child’s teacher to have the ability to give a two weeks notice and be out?
Laurie
October 11th, 2011
2:47 pm
First, I agree that whistle-blower protections need to be strengthened. Seems from prior AJC articles that the due process protections currently in place aren’t enough to protect genuine whistle-blowers. Tenure seems both broader than necessary to protect the actual whistle-blowers (apparently it is protecting dozens of confessed cheaters right now), and too weak to actually protect whistle-blowers adequately.
Beyond better whistle-blower laws (and others laws that protect employees generally, such as those against sexual harassment), I’m not convinced that teachers have unique needs for protection from bad decision-making by administrators.
But let’s say they do. If we are going to have broad due process protections / tenure like the ones we have now (where apparently even those who admitted under oath to intentional cheating feel that they can stay and fight, and who knows, perhaps extort settlements even under those circumstances), what about this: can’t we at least have the right, when we finally get through successfully proving incompetence or egregious actions like cheating and terminate the teacher, why can’t we at leave have the right to a return of the monies spent, or at least the money paid to a teacher during the process? Why should a teacher who actually was incompetent or actually committed some egregious act, be on paid leave, doing nothing, for months and months ($1 million a month, while our kids are being crowded into classes with waivers on class sizes, etc.) and then get to KEEP all that money at the end? Would you agree to that change in the law, John Trotter? Give them their hearings, even pay them during the proceedings, but if they lose, an automatic claw-back of that pay and the cost of the benefits they received while they did nothing?