New study: Fewer high school students in Georgia scoring at advanced levels in math
A new report finds high school achievement lagging in many states, including Georgia.
While state test scores have increased in high schools, as they have done in elementary and middle schools, the Center on Education Policy found that high school students show less progress than students at the other two levels. Gaps between groups of high school students have widened at the advanced achievement level in many states, including Georgia, one of a dozen states with a drop in students scoring at the advanced level in math.
(Before we put all the blame on the new math approach in Georgia high schools, please note that the period studied was 2004 to 2009. Georgia introduced its controversial integrated math – math taught using a multidisciplinary approach that draws on concepts taught in algebra, geometry and statistics simultaneously to solve problems — in high schools in 2008-2009 with that year’s entering freshman class. Those students also were exposed to integrated math as sixth graders in the 2005-2006 school year.)
The report states: Georgia is one of 12 states with declines in the percentage of high school students scoring at the advanced level on state math tests. (Georgia introduced a new high school English language arts test in 2008, so trends in this subject are not available.) The percentage of white and African American students scoring at the advanced level in high school math decreased from 2004 to 2009, while the percentage of Latino students scoring advanced increased. The gap between African American and white students widened at the advanced level in high school math, while the gap between Latino and white students narrowed. (You can download the Georgia info and chart from the main page of the Center.)
According to the official release:
While high school scores on state English language arts and math tests have risen since 2002 in most states, new data show smaller proportions of states making gains in high school compared with 4th and 8th grades. The data, published in the Center on Education Policy’s new report, also show a striking lack of progress and widening gaps at the advanced level in many states.
CEP’s report, State Test Score Trends Through 2008-09, Part 5: Progress Lags in High School, Especially for Advanced Achievers, is based on state test results from 40 states and the District of Columbia. States were included if they had at least three consecutive years of test data through school year 2008-09 for the high school grade assessed for the No Child Left Behind Act, generally grade 10 or 11.
High school students in more than three-fourths of the states analyzed made gains in average test scores and percentages of students scoring proficient, the study found. But compared with grades 4 and 8, a smaller share of states made gains and a larger share showed declines. In addition, high school gains tended to be smaller than gains in grades 4 and 8.
“These trends show that progress in raising achievement is lagging in high school, so these students may not be adequately prepared for life after graduation,” said Jennifer McMurrer, CEP research associate and co-author of the study. “The data can’t tell us why, but we can speculate about contributing factors, such as institutions and instruction that aren’t meeting the needs of high school students, low student motivation, and fewer resources for remediation at high school compared with the earlier grades.”
The study also reveals a lack of progress among high school students at the advanced achievement level. Although the percentage of high school students reaching the advanced level has increased since 2002 in a majority of the states analyzed, one-third or more of these states showed declines at the advanced level for high school students. Declines at this level were more prevalent at high school than at grades 4 and 8.
Progress has also lagged at the advanced level for major groups of high school students, including racial/ethnic minority students, low-income students, and boys and girls. In a large majority of the states analyzed, all of these groups made gains in both average test scores and percentages scoring proficient. But fewer states posted gains for subgroups at the advanced performance level. In English language arts, the percentage of students reaching the advanced level declined in one-third to one-half of the states analyzed for all groups except Asian Americans.
“We’re not sure what’s behind these troubling declines at the advanced level,” said Nancy Kober, CEP consultant and co-author of the study. “Clearly, some students aren’t taking challenging courses like algebra and geometry early enough. High achievers may also be getting less attention amid the intense focus on bringing students to proficiency. It’s also possible that they are more motivated to score well on the SAT or AP tests, which have more impact on their future, than on state tests.”
Moreover, achievement gaps have often widened at the advanced level in high school, in contrast to a broad trend of narrowing gaps for high school students at the proficient level and in average test scores. Gaps in the percentage of high school students reaching the advanced level widened more often than they narrowed, especially in math. The African American-white gap in advanced high school achievement widened in two-thirds of the states analyzed, and the Latino-white gap widened in three-fifths of these states.
“These trends show a need to rethink high school education,” said Jack Jennings, CEP’s president and CEO. “The adoption by 44 states of common academic standards for high schools affords us the opportunity to do that.”
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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103 comments Add your comment
AMD
October 6th, 2011
9:38 am
@true color
>>MD spends a couple days slamming on the gifted, and then wonders why we don’t have more >>gifted students in math? Go back and read your own columns.
Changed my handle to AMD so that I won’t be confused with Maureen. BTW, I agree with true color’s observations on Maureen’s inconsistencies on gifted programs.
Traditional Math Fan
October 6th, 2011
9:46 am
Hey BAB,
It’s worse than you think. Look beyond Lattice math. They do arrays, bow-tie multiplication, box-style charts, you name it. When I hit the roof (again) and informed my child’s ES teacher that our child would be taking F’s on any homework that required her to do artsy-fartsy math, I finally got a concession that she would be allowed to do it in the traditional way. Of course, the teacher keeps singling our child out in class as “being different b/c her mommy wants her to be.” It has taken a little back-building, but we’ve told her to stay strong and ignore the snarky comments.
The reason for all this artsy-fartsy math according to the teacher was that kids were making mistakes doing it the traditional way. Hmmm. I think I know why. Not only is their no mastery in the multiplication facts, BUT… wait for it… the kids don’t know to shift left when they start multiplying the digit in the tenths place. How do I know? Well… it seems my child has been pressed into service of drawing arrows on other kid’s papers to show them to make the shift. Just wonderful.
I also have a friend that specifically goes into the ES three-times per week to help tutor during math. She works with a 4th grade class where over 25% of them still can’t add and subtract without making errors. The teacher knows about this, but is hand-tied on trying to cover the splatter-gun curriculum. She can’t slow down, so she has enlisted parental help with the basics. And yet, the state is so proud that they’ve pushed higher-order math into the ES arena. Yoo hoo!
AMD
October 6th, 2011
9:57 am
@Mom of 3 at 9:32am,
>>my junior in high school is a straight A student at a private school with no grade inflation.
My children are in a private school, too. Everything is fine except for math education. My children are doing fine in math only because we have supplemented them at home. I am afraid many private school students are living in the “private school bubble.” Parents feel they are getting a better education when in fact they are way below the top 10% students in good public schools in North Fulton and East Cobb. I am sure your private school children as well as mine are generally more well-rounded than if they were educated in a public school. But when coming to the most crucial subject (aka, math), only parents can make a difference.
Pluto
October 6th, 2011
10:07 am
Let’s face it; math is hard and as such most kids have been raised to avoid “hard” at all costs. They have been conditioned with Game Boys and the like and playing is easy. I teach physics and chemistry where application of math is even harder. I don’t know why we keep changing how we teach math when it is the kids who don’t learn math?
Mom of 3
October 6th, 2011
10:44 am
AMD…..Yes, you reinforced my point. My husband and I do extra work, especially in math, with all of our children. As you correctly pointed out, math is lacking in most ALL schools. The only way I have to compare my junior to those in the “good public schools” is through the standardized tests, and thus far she has always done well. She just took the SAT, so we shall see…….
Attentive Parent
October 6th, 2011
10:47 am
AMD-
I mentioned the GIMS program from the mid-1990s above. As part of that in 1996 they made a big deal of bringing on about 18 of the most well-known private schools in Georgia to go with the new math. Yes. That was when Westminster adopted Everyday Math in its elementary school. It was also when APS started its math and science systemic initiative.
Most of the private schools who initially held out went to EM over the next 5 years which was the whole point of getting Westminster on board early. Private schools in Georgia have much less flexibility in who they hire than almost any state in the country. The accreditation agencies here want that teacher’s certification or alt cert for most of the schools teachers so that graduates can be eligible for HOPE. So whatever fads are being pushed by the schools of ed, usually to bring in grant money, get pushed in private schools here as well.
Plus the GCTM and NCTM expressly target private school teachers who go to those conventions and listen to terrible ideas. Then they come home and hold parents who actually know and use math and science in contempt because “they know all about the newest methods”.
thomas
October 6th, 2011
11:03 am
@ Traditional,
“Traditional” methods of calculation are just that – traditional. Just because that’s how we have been doing it for a long time doesn’t make them any better mathematically. There are a number of other, just as mathematically valid and efficient methods of calculation. Having said that, any teacher/school that teaches multiple methods of calculation to students really misses the point. Paper-and-pencil calculations is such an insignificant part of mathematics to be so concerned about. If students have a reliable and mathematically valid ways of calculation, that should be good enough. If students subtract left to right – and re-group from the difference – then that is perfectly fine. The point is to help students make their own reasoning into written procedures so that they have own (not necessarily unique) methods. Teaching computation methods is not a cafeteria where students look through different methods and try to pick one they lilke.
AMD
October 6th, 2011
11:26 am
@Attentive Parents, thank you for the info. Yes, Westminster was the first one to sell out and other private schools followed one after another. Few parents from these private schools actually know that Everyday Math was initially designed for inner city children in Chicago in the 90’s under then superintendent Arne Duncan and Community Organizer Barack Obama. It’s all on the Chicago Annenberg Challenge website. They didn’t call it Everyday Math then. They called it the Annenberg Curriculum.
Many parents in our private school actually think EM is a better, cooler curriculum. I pissed off a few parents by telling them my thoughts. I met with principal and teachers to voice my concern. They assured me it was a better curriculum. I respectively disagreed. I like the school for many other reasons. So we stayed. I supplemented my children with Singapore Math at home. That was two years ago. A year later, my 3rd grader got a perfect score on math portion of his CogAT test and near perfect scores on reading and analytical. He has an overall 150 (the perfect score) on CogAT. What about the children of other parents whom I pissed off? I know one kid who was supposed to be math-minded scored in the 70 percentiles. I have made sure all parents know my 3rd grader’s perfect CogAT math score and the fact that he has been doing Singapore Math at home.
@Mom of 3, glad we agree. My kids also go to a private math enrichment class on Saturdays taught by a Math Ph.D. who is a math professor at a college here and who received his K-12 math education overseas. Talking about math reasoning. My kids thrive in his math enrichment classes. It’s a shame that we pay for a private school education and yet still have to pay for private math enrichment. In public school, most top math students have foreign-born parents (from many ethnic groups) who actually understand the low quality of U.S.-educated math teachers.
Pluto
October 6th, 2011
11:27 am
@ thomas
‘ There are a number of other, just as mathematically valid and efficient methods of calculation.’
Please enlighten me as to just what the hell this means.
thomas
October 6th, 2011
12:06 pm
@ Pluto,
Try
http://rationalmathed.blogspot.com/2008/06/who-determines-standard-algorithm-for.html
or
http://math.coe.uga.edu/TME/Issues/v10n2/5ross.pdf
The second one is an article referenced in the first blog post.
mystery poster
October 6th, 2011
2:22 pm
@AMD
“He has an overall 150 (the perfect score) on CogAT. What about the children of other parents whom I pissed off? I know one kid who was supposed to be math-minded scored in the 70 percentiles.”
This does not make sense. If the other student was graded according to percentile, your student should also have been graded according to percentile. 150 cannot be a perfect score on a percentile
scale. Percentiles are where you score relative to everyone else, so the highest percentile one can achieve is 100, meaning you scored better than 100% of the other people taking the test.
Another Math Teacher
October 6th, 2011
4:39 pm
AMD (as MD):
“Here is a math problem from my daughter’s critical think math:
X4273Y is a 6-digit number divisible by 72. Find X and Y.
…If no one can, we know why our students are short-changed in math education.”
Solution: To be divisible by 72 it must be divisible by 9 AND 8.
To check if it is divisible by 9, add all the digits, check if the sum is divisible by 9.
(16 + X + Y) % 9 == 0
To check if it is divisible by 8, check if the sum of the last 3 digits is divisible by 8.
(10 + Y) % 8 == 0
Since the only value in range for Y is 6 ( (10+6) % 8 == 0)) Y is equal to 6.
Plug in Y to find X.
(16 + X + 6) % 9 == 0
(22 + X) % 9 == 0
The only value in the range given is 5.
Answer: (5, 6)
Do I get a cookie?
GA parent/teacher
October 6th, 2011
9:04 pm
We still have 8th graders at our school that are still counting on their fingers. Several haven’t even passed any portion of the CRCT ever, and they are still moved up every year no matter what they make in the classes they take.
The “ME” generation of the students at our school could care less about getting ahead and heaven forbid their actually doing math or anything related to learning. Our students haven’t learned basic math skills and will never learn advanced math because they just don’t give a d***,
Anonmom
October 6th, 2011
11:38 pm
I’m very grateful to handful of excellent ES teachers at our local school who were somehow able to use good ole fashioned math on our eldest and to the “sponge” effect on my younger 2. My younger 2 are at Westminister’s rival down the road – the freshman – transferring in from DCSS’ Accelerated Math 1 — was placed into Algebra 2 Honors and, although he is finding it tough — he is surviving and actually seems to know what he is doing and seems have covered just about all of geometry over his 3 years of accelerated math in middle school. The “wacky” curriculum actually worked for him and he is pretty well prepared, I think, for where he is. His brother, 2 years older, and actually a stronger math student, is in Analysis Honors, having started (to his chagrin) with Geometry Honors in 9th grade (he was the first group of Accelerated Math 1s mid-way through 7th grade) and my youngest is only 1 year behind him in math (although 2 years behind for school). Their background in math appears to be quite strong, particularly compared to those I can compare them to….
AMD
October 7th, 2011
8:46 am
@Another Math Teacher,
Excellent!!! Now that’s math reasoning. Your approach requires only a finite set of steps and will work any number divisible by 72. We need competent math teachers like you.
AMD
October 7th, 2011
9:09 am
@mystery poster
CogAT has three parts, Verbal, Quantitative and Nonverbal (similar to Analytical). The perfect score for each part is 150. Score Report comes with Grade Percentile Rank, Age Percentile Rank and SAS (i.e. raw score). Percentile rankings are relative. A student scoring 135 out of 150 is still likely to be in the 99% ranking. In some states (e.g. Virginia), public school students take CogAT every year, and their scores are used to determined if they are placed in a gifted program. From what I have read, anyone scoring 110 or above is qualified but not not guaranteed for gifted ed in Virginia.
With a raw score of 150, my child kicks the collective butt of the Everyday Math crowd. Thanks for giving me another chance to rub in the face of the Everyday Math crowd.
Parents, especially those with math-minded children, who think their 3rd graders can learn math by counting the number of clocks in their house or the number of pockets each family member has on their shirt should have their head examined.
chigrl
October 7th, 2011
9:44 am
The hysteria surrounding these scores is nothing more than another excuse for ‘reform’. Anytime you have increasing numbers of students taking a test, the percentage of children performing at any given level is lowered (diluted). Hey, maybe it isn’t ‘math’ that is a problem; perhaps it is the poor ’statistics’ taught in all these big B business classes! (Remind me why business should take over education)?
AMD: Chicago Math (aka Everyday Math) had nothing to do with Arne Duncan or President Obama. As a matter of fact, it was one of those “public/private” ventures ordinarily embraced by Republicans: University of Chicago School Mathematics Project and published by the Wright Group of the McGraw-Hill. It may be a poor program, but you don’t help your argument, or our schools, using Fox news talking points.
AMD
October 7th, 2011
10:53 am
@chigrl,
You happened to be talking to an expert on the history and people behind Everyday Math. Everyday Math was designed by some educators in the College of Education at the University of Chicag in the 90’s and earlier. Its first project director was Prof. Max Bell. If you are familiar with Prof Bell’s political persuasion, you will understand why EM was designed as is. It’s all about leveling the playing field for the bottom level students. The project name for EM (Mathematics Project) was so misleading that people thought it was designed by some math professors in the Department of Math. Not so. From the get go, there were many very public arguments on the EM curriculum between some Math professors in the Department of Math at the U of Chicago and those Education professors responsible for EM. Also, the so-called researshed subjects were all inner city public school students in Chicago. Yes, it was a collaboration between Obama/Duncan’s Chicago Annenberg Challenge and the College of Education Mathematical Project (Bell and Ayers). The details can be found on the CAC website. Google it. Also, if you google Chicago Annenberg Challenge and Everyday Math, you should find some links talking about their collaboration. For example, a school named Whittier from CA has a “dance with math” thing and links EM to Chicago Annenberg Challenge.
EM has been revised three times. Many public schools in GA used it and dumped it. Most private schools in Atlanta still use it. Many private school students are either smarter than the average and/or getting additional math enrichment, MathCounts, critical thinking math, etc. So EM is just one of the curricula for them. Personally I think that’s the reason parents at private schools have not tried to get rid of EM yet. It’s just one of the math materials. However, a few private school parents who are die-hard supporters (should I say mindless followers of school administrators) ironically find their smart children perform rather poorly in some standardized math tests, like the 70 percentile example mentioned earlier.
Truth hurts, doesn’t it? I wasn’t trying to be political. Just tried to talk mathematics.
Another Math Teacher
October 7th, 2011
12:24 pm
AMD:
“@Another Math Teacher,
Excellent!!! Now that’s math reasoning. Your approach requires only a finite set of steps and will work any number divisible by 72. We need competent math teachers like you.”
I left brick and mortar schools this last year. Blame incompetent administration.
AJinCobb
October 7th, 2011
12:25 pm
@Anonmom,
Really appreciate your testimonial that the middle school Accelerated Math program left your children well prepared for their private school math classes. I’m so tired of reading posts claiming that Georgia’s integrated math curriculum doesn’t teach anyone anything, leaves public school students far behind the private schools, etc. The criticisms of integrated math seem exaggerated, from my East Cobb public school parent perspective.
Of course, the integrated math curriculum has absolutely nothing to do with the study results that are the subject of this blog. The students covered by this study would have been taking the previous math curriculum. Just thought I’d reiterate that important point made by Maureen.
thomas
October 7th, 2011
12:57 pm
@ AMD & Another math teacher,
AMT says, “To check if it is divisible by 8, check if the sum of the last 3 digits is divisible by 8.”
This is not true. Look at 529. The sum of these digits, 5+2+9=16, divisible by 8. But, as AMD’s incompetent teacher would notice, 529 can’t be divided by 8 since it is not an even number.
AMD says, “Excellent!!! Now that’s math reasoning” to this and complain about out mathematics teachers not being competent. Was AMD being cynical?
By the way, can you name some of those countries where this problem is a standard problem in Grade 5? I can’t see how the theorem behind the AMT’s solution is accessible to fifth graders.
chigrl
October 7th, 2011
2:02 pm
@AMD
And YOU are speaking to someone who lived the history.
So, I Googled your claim and found Michelle Malkin and some anti-U.N. paranoid sites. That’s your source? Otherwise, please provide a link to your claim.
Another Math Teacher
October 7th, 2011
2:20 pm
“To check if it is divisible by 8, check if the sum of the last 3 digits is divisible by 8.
(10 + Y) % 8 == 0 ”
Should have read:
“To check if it is divisible by 8, check if the last 3 digits are divisible by 8.”
(73Y) % 8 == 0
Personally, I would have divided 730 by 8 and checked the remainder. (Which is 2.) I would then have added 6 to make the remainder 0. Giving 6 as Y.
I originally read the first line and copied its meaning to the second line. The theory of finding something divisible by 8 and 9 still stands.
Really amazed
October 7th, 2011
2:33 pm
We have EM at my children’s private school. Yes, in the elementary years it’s fine, as long as you supplement w/something else. Please remember EM is just up to 5 sometimes 6th grade. Once high school hits. Higher level math students, taking AP cal in junior year start to have problems. Then again I would be surprised if anyone is just breezing through AP cal BC!!!
Artsy Fartsy math from Good Mother
October 7th, 2011
2:34 pm
“Artsy fartsy math”
Hilarious.
Thanks for the great laugh!
Good Mother
To @math teacher from Good mother
October 7th, 2011
2:37 pm
Loved your approach to the math problem.
Do you tutor? Please post your rate and how we can hire you!
AMD
October 7th, 2011
2:46 pm
“To check if it is divisible by 8, check if the sum of the last 3 digits is divisible by 8.”
@thomas, you are correct. The above statement is not always true. However, his/her other statement – To check if it is divisible by 9, add all the digits, check if the sum is divisible by 9 – is always true. That’s math reasoning enough. Unfortunately, a lot of math teachers don’t even know this simple math fact.
Also, for all numbers divisible by 9 or multiples of 9, if you keep adding the sums of all digits until the value is one digit, the value is always 9. You can just use this math fact to come up with a finite set of possible answers to solve this problem.
X + 4 + 2+ 7+ 3+ Y = 16 + X + Y
Adds all all digits => 7 + X + Y and the initial sum of (7 + X + Y) can only be 9 or 18 since X and Y are both single digit numbers.
A) If the sum is 9, X + Y = 2
B) If the sum is 18, X + Y = 11
The number is an even number since it’s divisible by an even number. So all possible answers are as follows:
1) X = 2, Y = 0
2) X = 9, Y = 2
3) X = 7, Y = 4
4) X = 5, Y = 6
5) X = 3, Y = 8
To your second question, I supplement my children with Singapore Math. This type of questions are in 4th and 5th grade Singapore Math. Don’t believe me? Go order some 4th or 5th grade Singapore Math activitiy books from http://www.SingaporeMath.com.
I know this will offend you. My point is that there are very few competent K-12 math teachers who are U.S.-educated, even in those expensive private schools in Atlanta.
AMD
October 7th, 2011
3:20 pm
@chigrl
So you want to talk politics. I am not a right winger like Michelle Malkin. Neither do I watch Fox News. I dislike Dems and Republicans equally. Since you mentioned it, I can tell you that I was pissed when some activist type parents voiced their dislike of Everyday Math when I started talking to the administrators at my children’s private school. Activist parents don’t help the cause. People respond well to intelligent dialogs only, not hysterical demagogue. Leftists need to heed this common sense as well. So watch what you say when you feel like screaming.
Google this – “Chicago Annenberg Challenge – Everyday Math – Whittier”
Here is the first link – http://www3.mpls.k12.mn.us/news/collage_9_00.pdf
[PDF]
ANNENBERGwww3.mpls.k12.mn.us/news/collage_9_00.pdf
You +1′d this publicly. Undo
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat – Quick View
Carolina (A+), South Carolina, Chicago and no doubt in other places as well. …. Whittier Springs Ahead. With Dance Math. “The Annenberg Challenge has helped us put … have covered specific Everyday Mathematics lessons, …
Here is the CAC’s own website – http://ccsr.uchicago.edu/downloads/p62.pdf
It’s the so-called research and design of the CAC curriculum. Of course, they did not call the CAC math curriculum Everyday Math then. I don’t want to debate politics as it’s all B.S. from both sides. I am not going to prove to you how Bill Ayers, Max Bell (both are Education Professors from the U of Chicago), Arne Duncan (Superintendent) and Barack Obama (Community Organizer) worked together on the CAC. You can read it on your own. Your guys messed up big time. Now you want to revise the history. Don’t take side. Make education, especially math education, politics free.
thomas
October 7th, 2011
3:23 pm
@AMD,
“However, his/her other statement – To check if it is divisible by 9, add all the digits, check if the sum is divisible by 9 – is always true. That’s math reasoning enough.”
Well, I don’t consider that as a “reasoning” at all. It’s just simply stating a fact/rule. I would consider AMT’s first statement, “To be divisible by 72 it must be divisible by 9 AND 8,” might be an indication of AMT’s “reasoning.” Your statement, “since X and Y are both single digit numbers,” is also an indication of “reasoning,” but this same reasoning was indeed done by the incompetent teacher of your daughter, too. I guess she used the reasoning, “The number is an even number since it’s divisible by an even number,” too. And, I believe you meant “all possible 6 digit numbers of the form X4273Y that is divisible by 9″ are…, not “all possible answers” to the original problem.
You can spew out a lot of facts and rules, but reasoning is more about how you use them.
I don’t necessarily get offended by your statement – I might even agree with you. However, the argument coming from someone whose understanding of mathematical reasoning to be rather comical to me.
AMD
October 7th, 2011
3:36 pm
For those of you who feel so good about your children’s math education, you need to read this 2007 news from England. I don’t think math ed in the U.S. is any better than UK. As Rober Compton of 2 Million Minutes points out, our typical middle schooler is at least one year behind their counterparts in China and India while our high schooler is at least 2 years behind them. We are stuck in a vicious cycle. Most parents in America stink at math. They have no expectations of their children’s math teachers. In our expensive private schools, most parents are actually fine with math teachers whose academic background is a B.A. in some non science or math major. No wonder they try math tricks instead of math reasoning.
The UK’s Royal Society of Chemistry is offering a £500 prize to one lucky but bright person who answers the question below correctly.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6589301.stm?lsm
chigrl
October 7th, 2011
3:46 pm
@AMD:
Your first link is to a 2000 article about using dance to teach mathematics in MN. Is Jessie Ventura involved now, too. Here’s where you are right: you aren’t going to prove a devious connection to Ayers, Duncan, the U.N., EM/ChiMath and Obama. That would constitute faulty reasoning.
As it relates to China, there is no compulsory education after age 9; only the brightest students continue. There is also an interesting linguistic component to mathematics achievement in various languages, Chinese being one. It is absurd to continue pushing for policy, procedures and reforms generated in places which do not have a similar basis for education as a whole.
missing word
October 7th, 2011
4:42 pm
@ thomas,
Hey, I think you forgot a word or two in your very last statement: “However, the argument coming from someone whose understanding of mathematical reasoning to be rather comical to me.”
Hmm,… What could it be? “impeccable”? However, the argument coming from someone whose understanding of mathematical reasoning “is impeccable” to be rather comical to me. No, this doesn’t sound quite right.
“exemplary”? However, the argument coming from someone whose understanding of mathematical reasoning “is exemplary” to be rather comical to me. No, this one doesn’t sound right, either.
I wonder if you meant something a bit more negative…
AJinCobb
October 7th, 2011
9:22 pm
AMD wrote “… our typical middle schooler is at least one year behind their counterparts in China and India while our high schooler is at least 2 years behind them.”
Are we sure we’re comparing apples and apples here? I had the impression that those foreign systems educate a much smaller, selected portion of the populace than we do in the US. I am skeptical that our best students are really that much behind their best students.
For example, my child took AP Calc BC last year as a junior, and in senior year is taking the next level of university calculus from Georgia Tech. Are Chinese and Indian 17 year olds two years ahead of this? I doubt it, especially as I work (in high tech) with plenty of people who went to high school in China and India. Of course, getting over here and going to college or working in a second language is a big accomplishment for them, but on the technical side they don’t strike me as specially brilliant or accomplished.
Attentive Parent
October 7th, 2011
9:32 pm
chigrl-
You are annoying me. Everyday Math was developed by a U chicago prof, Izaak wirszup, whose political desires were so radical that the Educational Leadership interview with him from about 30 years ago starts off by saying he doesn’t look like a traitor.
He explains that this is the program the Soviets developed to offer education for all because it strips out all theoretical aspects. It was so poorly received in the totalitarian Soviet Union during the height of the gulags, that angry parents took the math noncurriculum all the way to the Communist Central Committee in 1977 to complain about what was being pushed on their children.
So wirszup imported it to the US as a means of hobbling our next generation. So controversial it made it to the Politburo. Now that’s a BAD idea.
It’s NOT about a better way to learn math. It’s about limiting what you can know or do.
Maureen Downey
October 7th, 2011
9:51 pm
@AJ, I saw a Duke study that challenged the repeated assertion that China and India produced more engineers. The study said that the graduates from those countries were technicians rather than engineers, and that the US was still out producing those countries in terms of bona fide engineers.
Maureen
MannyT
October 8th, 2011
12:33 am
Do they still teach divisibility rules?
http://math.about.com/library/bldivide.htm
why
October 8th, 2011
8:10 am
Dvisibility rules are somewhat useful within elementary/middle school mathematics, but their proofs are not really appropriate for them. Thus, we end up teaching rules without even telling/showing their proofs. I don’t think it does much to promote students’ ability to reason mathematically.
I wonder how many people who criticize GA/US mathematics education and math teachers can actually prove/explain why any of these rules actually work. How about it, AMD? Attentive Parent? Anyone else?
Heifer
October 8th, 2011
7:07 pm
I just read that the students in Greece are protesting because, a month into their school year, they haven’t been issued textbooks. My Decatur City Schools student did not have a math textbook that could be removed from class from fourth grade through tenth grade. Yet parents were repeatedly told how critical it was that WE teach our children mathematics. Why, do you suppose? Perhaps because no other state has instituted the mish-mash math program foisted upon us all by our long-gone Kathy Cox, state superintendent of public schools.
chigrl
October 8th, 2011
9:47 pm
@attentive parent
Don’t misunderstand. I’m no fan of Chicago Math/Everyday Math. There is plenty to dispute within the research and final product without resorting to paranoid and outrageous claims.
Forget about math; let’s get back to teaching children how to evaluate a source.
Sheesh
Attentive Parent
October 8th, 2011
10:07 pm
chigrl-
Those are not outrageous claims. I can assure you I have Ron Brandt’s interviews from that issue of Educational Leadership.
I especially like the part where Wirszup explains that there’s no need to doubt the Soviet statistics because it’s not like the Stalin years.
What do you mean evaluate a source? IS ASCD not authoritative?
What’s paranoid about reading somebody’s description of what they are really doing?
We can talk about Tom Romberg’s interview in the same issue. Although he has even more forthcoming admissions against interest elsewhere.
Or Jeremy’s editing with Wirszup.
why
October 9th, 2011
8:43 am
@ Attentive Parent,
So, can you explain why any of the divisibility rules work? Why should we teach kids rules without telling them why they work?
AMD
October 10th, 2011
9:45 am
For those of you who still think your kids got a good math edukation (misspell intended) with AP and honor math, etc, try this math problem from China’s College Entrance Exam in 2007. The UK’s Royal Society of Chemistry even offered a £500 prize to one lucky but bright person who could solve the problem correctly. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6589301.stm?lsm
Our students in the U.S. are living in the “American bubble” when coming to math education. AP Calculus, Honor Math in high school in the U.S. are two years behind China’s and India’s. This statement is not from me. Check out Robert Compton’s 2 Million Minutes Documentary. He compared math education in the U.S., China and India. He followed two students in each country for a year or two and interviewed many other students. That was his conclusion.
BTW, I don’t want to link politics to math education. Let’s just leave politics out. Interestingly, Mr. Obama’s two daughters go to a private school that uses Singapore Math instead of Everyday Math. Google it yourself. It’s a NYT article dated back September – October of 2010.
AMD
October 10th, 2011
9:59 am
“So, can you explain why any of the divisibility rules work?”
@why
Are you sure a competent math teacher can’t explain the whys and even hows of the divisibility rules as you call it?
Attentive Parent
October 10th, 2011
10:18 am
AMD-
Sidwell Friends uses Investigations which is even worse than Everyday Math. If they have added some Singapore Math it is recent and tangential. Of course Singapore itself has changed.
If the political comment is directed to me, I am afraid you will be missing the bulk of the story. I did not go looking for a political explanation, but it turns out to be the core of what Math education really means. It is an insider term of art that does not mean how to best teach math knowledge and techniques. And Georgia has been an experimental lab for quite some time. Look into Gene Bottoms and his Tecademics from the 1970s.
thomas
October 10th, 2011
12:46 pm
@ AMD,
I think why’s challenge is if YOU can explain any of the divisibility test. I would be curious to know if you can.
As for the problems from the Chinese college entrance exam, I bet if Harvard or MIT decides to screen their applicants based on an entrance exam, they will be asking the same type of questions. A college entrance exam by its nature includes problems only some can answer correctly – otherwise it serves no purpose of screening. The more prestigeous the school, the harder the problem.
After the initial glance, it seems like the problem requires some knowledge of vector products – or at least the use of vector products might be a possible approach. However, such a topic will not be even discussed in AP Calculus – I don’t think. But, I’m sure there are some HS students who can solve these problems because they were fortunate enough to start taking more advanced mathematics while they are still in HS – and I imagine the ratio of the students who can tackle this level of rigor in the US is not that different from in China or India. A good number of US students still get Gold medals at the International Math/Physics Olympiads.
thomas
October 10th, 2011
12:47 pm
@ missing word (and AMD),
I guess the missing word was “suspect” — “However, the argument coming from someone whose understanding of mathematical reasoning is suspect to be rather comical to me.” My apology for the omission.
thomas
October 10th, 2011
12:49 pm
@ Attentive Parent,
So, enlighten us all with your deep knowledge of “core” of mathematics and answer the challenge posed by why.
Attentive Parent
October 10th, 2011
3:31 pm
No Thomas.
That would be a waste of my skills and knowledge and time and allow you to change the subject anytime it gets troubling.
Your gauntlet throwing skills need work.
why
October 10th, 2011
4:11 pm
@ Attentive Parent,
As much as I respect your right not to answer the question of explaining why the divisibility rules work – and it should also be mentioned that this topic was brought up by AMD who continues to remain silent on this challenge – I still think it is important who criticize GA/US mathematics education to actually show some evidence of their own mathematical competency. After all, that (lack of mathematical knowledge/competency) seems to be one of the things those people seem to accuse the other side to be. Of course, it is perfectly fine for you or anyone else to be ignorant of mathematics and still criticize mathematics education practices. It’s just your argument gets rather weak – how can you criticize for not knowing the subject when you yourself do not have enough knowledge (to judge other people’s knowledge of mathematics)…
why
October 10th, 2011
4:12 pm
@ Attentive Parent,
And I also understand your dilemma – answering the challenge may be “waste” and “diversion” of the discussion. Yet, not answering the challenge gives an impression that you cannot do it.