NY appeals court: Public should see teacher ratings
In a decision watched by educators nationwide, a New York appeals court ruled Thursday that teacher performance ratings can be released to the public.
The teachers union had challenged the New York school system’s plan to release the ratings, which categorize teachers as “high,” “above average,” “average,” “below average” or “low” based on how students fared on the state tests compared to peers. The district has compiled the scores for several years but has not used them in evaluations or released them to parents.
In the unanimous ruling, the four-judge appeals panel reaffirmed an earlier legal decision that the data can be made public, contending, “The reports concern information of a type that is of compelling interest to the public, namely, the proficiency of public employees in the performance of their job duties.”
The teachers’ union argued that the data is flawed and that the resulting negative labels and sensationalized news stories — “The 10 worst teachers in the Bronx” — could haunt teachers forever.
This case has implications for Georgia where Race to the Top participating systems are working to create evaluations that consider student performance in grading teacher performance.
In a column in the New York Daily News, education researcher Rick Hess decried the ruling. Here is an excerpt of his op-ed:
Student achievement should be incorporated into teacher evaluation and compensation, and transparency is a vital tool for recognizing excellence and shaming mediocrity. But a public data release is the wrong way to get there.
First, at the most technical level, there are enormous questions about the “right” way to construct a value-added model, and teacher evaluations can move markedly depending on the decisions that are made. Second, in the substantial number of cases where students receive considerable pull-out instruction – or work, for instance, with a designated reading instructor – value-added calculations aren’t going to effectively isolate the impact of a particular classroom teacher.
Third, there’s a profound failure to recognize the difference between responsible management and this sort of public transparency. It’s fair for taxpayers to want to know exactly how their money is spent and – and to expect leaders to report on organizational performance. It typically doesn’t make sense, however, for the public to get the numbers of citations each cop in the NYPD issues or all the performance reviews a National Guardsman was given by his commanding officer.
Why? Because we recognize that these data are imperfect, limited measures and that using them sensibly requires judgment. Sensible judgment becomes much more difficult when decisions are made in the glare of the media spotlight.
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
Tell us what you think about the site
Customer Care »
Vacation stops, manage subscriptions and more
AJC Services
Sections
Other Editions
Visitor Agreement | Privacy Statement
© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
151 comments Add your comment
Public Schools are welfare agencies
August 29th, 2011
3:33 pm
Who in their right mind would want to become a teacher now? Why can’t we rate parents and publicize their effectiveness? The government is too involved in education where it does not concern them. However, the government will not concern itself with improving teachers’ salaries and working conditions. Once again, teachers are being held responsible for the inadequacies of parents and guardians. The problem is some minority parents are not held accountable for raising their own children, so the government leaves the parenting to teachers. At this rate, public education will be a thing of the past, and only the talented tenth will have an opportunity to pursue a free education. Blame it all on the apathetic parents and people who want something for nothing.
Teacher 1
August 29th, 2011
3:53 pm
Aren’t teachers taxpayers? Don’t they have the right to know how people who are receiving public assistance spend their dollars that are contributed by taxpaying teachers? Just asking…
November 6, 2012
August 29th, 2011
3:58 pm
I’m not sure this is such a good idea, or should I say ruling. A teacher could be scarred for life for something she/he has no control over. I can see why the unions wouldn’t want it made public
oldtimer
August 29th, 2011
4:02 pm
Both of the above posts are true….so much happens in a classroom that is beyond teacher control. My students always did very well on the ITBS tests we gave twice a year, but they came to me ready to learn the material and when I called someone to work with a student after school, parents were agreeable till the last 5 years I taught. Then they yelled at me….like it was my fault Sam needed more help with reading or was missing too many homework assignments. I am glad I had many many good years.
Elaine
August 29th, 2011
4:24 pm
Good luck ever getting anyone to work as a teacher.
Ernest
August 29th, 2011
4:27 pm
It will be interesting to see what data is also provided regarding the students and parents, so that one can better understand the context of the rating. I know most of this is protected under the Privacy Act but will they share data such as race, whether they are special needs or have an IEP, # of referrals, # of calls to parent, # of return calls by parents, # of conferences with parents, etc. I’d want this infomation also shared if I was a teacher.
Lori
August 29th, 2011
4:37 pm
This is nuts….They are holding teachers accountable for the students past failures. For example, a fifth grade teacher should not be held accountable for a child that has come to him/her with 4+ years of bad performance and expect to be able to catch that child up in one year. They need to be able to measure a child’s progress with a specific teacher, from the beginning to the end of the year, rather than a black and white pass or fail line.
Teacher 1
August 29th, 2011
4:41 pm
The government thinks that TEACHERS are the the parents. Some parents think that teachers are the parents. That is why they do not purchase supplies. They have the nerve to say that public schools should provide supplies. We feed them, provide medical care, and counseling. Next, dormitories will be built on the campuses to ensure that all students live in a safe environment. It appears as if the non-working (not those who have been gainfully employed for years and recently laid off) get all the breaks. Maybe I should quit my job and apply for government assistance. At least I don’t have to worry about anything,,, not even raising my own children. Oh… I forgot…the judicial system will raise them for me…but they will still get free food, clothing, shelter, medical care, cable television….
HS Public Teacher
August 29th, 2011
4:53 pm
Are police evaluations, fire fighter evaluations, military evaluations also going to be made public?
Will there be a “Top 10 worst fire fighters in the Bronx” article written as well? Or, how about an article titled, “Top
Heaven help teachers. And, heaven help the students that are getting really messed up due to this insane politics.
Atlanta mom
August 29th, 2011
4:54 pm
Who would work in any job where your evaluation was made public?
May I see my local police officer’s evaluation because surely “The reports concern information of a type that is of compelling interest to the public, namely, the proficiency of public employees in the performance of their job duties.”
redweather
August 29th, 2011
5:21 pm
What a ruling. As a few of you have already noted, this is not likely to improve the competency of teachers. And why they should be held accountable in this public way when police and other government employees are not is difficult to understand.
catlady
August 29th, 2011
5:25 pm
Let’s also post for the public the ratings on judges. Things like their overturn rate, their rate of complaints on bias, etc. Also ratings from criminals and their lawyers. Let’s make their jobs dependant on this information.
Eric
August 29th, 2011
5:32 pm
While we’re at it . . . since corporations run our county, why not print their employee performance results too! Let’s report on each other ad nauseum!
unreal
August 29th, 2011
5:32 pm
All public employees ratings should be made public. Why is the country so anti-teacher? Again, why aren’t poor parents held responsible for their childrens’ failures? Teachers cannot do it all. Did integration and illegal immigration cause this problem? Teachers were not lambasted like they are today.
Active in Cherokee
August 29th, 2011
5:35 pm
Leaving the argument of whether sharing this data is right or wrong aside – what data is published, how the data was gathered, what methods of analysis are used, and what explanations of interpreting the data are given should be of concern. It’s sad but I think the teachers knew this ruling was coming. Personally, when I don’t know how to interpret given data for myself I look directly at the bottom line – in this case that would be the final teacher rating. One of the huge problems of doing this is test scores from an individual teacher can often be too small of a sample to get a realistic and/or consistent reading. A teacher not changing his/her methods could be on the bottom one year and then shoot up to the top the following year simply because of what students were randomly placed in their seats. A more realistic rating would come with a composite average over the span of a teacher’s career – though unfortunately this retrospective view is not helpful with the new performance based pay scales (or ‘teacher report cards’) It would however be wonderful data for educational research to actually do some improvement of pedagogy.
I feel for teachers and am sorry the politicians want data so desperately they will settle for flawed data…..and then have the audacity to share it with the public – 99% of which have no knowledge in how to read/interpret data and will simply look at an inaccurate bottom line. Visit the schools and get involved- it’s obvious who the good/bad teachers are.
Beck
August 29th, 2011
5:36 pm
I’d be fine with having my evaluations made public.
As to whether or not people will still enter into the profession, several of my students (9th and 10th graders) stated that they wanted to when we did introductions last week. People don’t go into teaching for the money, fame, summer “vacation,” or the hassle people outside education (and some other educators, for that matter) give us. We do it because we love the subject matter, we want to help others and it’s a way to make a difference in the world.
Active in Cherokee
August 29th, 2011
5:38 pm
@ catlady – that would change things around……bet this ‘ruling’ would be overturned if that ever came to the table!
Elizabeth
August 29th, 2011
5:48 pm
My evaluation rating is between me, my evaluator, and my school system. Any attempt to make it otherwise without including ALL public employees and private employees will result in a lawsuit. And not because I am afraid of what the evaluation will say. Because this is information is private by state law and the laws of privacy that I am entitled to with my medical and insurance records.The teacher witch hunt HAS to stop, and for me this is where it will stop. If this is changed, you will not be able to find warm bodies to babysit classrooms.
Janet
August 29th, 2011
6:04 pm
WOW… I don’t even know what to say… I feel SO BAD for teachers. I agree with Elizabeth. This is nothing but a teacher witch hunt.
V for Vendetta
August 29th, 2011
6:14 pm
Lies, damn lies, and statistics. I agree with all of the previous posts. It is asinine to assume that you can even remotely determine teacher effectiveness based on test scores. To publish this data as if it has some sort of evaluative merit in the public domain is beyond asinine: it is manipulative and disingenuous. The political scapegoat that is education will be in free fall if this moronic ruling sets a precedent nationwide.
The bottom line is that teachers do the best they can with what they have. Often times what they have is an overcrowded classroom, outdated materials, and students who are, at best, apathetic–at worst, combative and confrontational. Some of these students come from deplorable background where education ranks somewhere behind picking up after yourself in terms of importance. Teachers are expected to somehow overcome the students’ backgrounds, years of educational neglect, and far below grade level performance. In one year.
This decision ranks equally with No Child Left Behind as one of the worst blows education has received in recent years–especially if it goes nationwide. The public education system desperately needs a victory, a profession-changing positive push that focuses on what is best for students and treats teachers as if they are deserving of respect and admiration. In the meantime, those of us who still enjoy our jobs will continue to push forward hoping for that day.
irisheyes
August 29th, 2011
6:19 pm
Will the demographic data of the students also be published? Last year, I had a group of average to above-average students. They all did very well on their standardized assessments. This year, almost half of my students are ESOL students. I can put in even more effort, and they may not do as well, simply because they aren’t as familiar with English. Am I a worse teacher now than I was a year ago? What happens next year if I happen to get the gifted students?
HS Math Teacher
August 29th, 2011
6:26 pm
I should have been a gym teacher (with NOVA or Argosy Ed. Specialist Diploma on the gym office wall). What was I thinking?
Should've...
August 29th, 2011
6:52 pm
Gone to business school. Seriously, this is it for me. I have had it with the madness, micromanaging, and blame.
catlady
August 29th, 2011
7:26 pm
Well, since parents provide the raw materials, we should publish ratings on them. And ratings on the legislators (federal and state) and Board members (state and local) and bureaucrats who decide what teachers will do, when, and how often.
Does anyone else want to join in the published ratings game? But first, the judges who approved this!
open record
August 29th, 2011
7:42 pm
This case shows the risk that any data collected by any public institution may bereleased to thw public BECAUSE they are public institution. Schools should be careful what data to collect.
The Devil You Say
August 29th, 2011
7:46 pm
People have no idea how silly this idea is. One must remember that teacher ‘ratings’ are completely subjective in some areas and in others based on test scores of students. The latter is a problem because these ratings are skewed by the quality of the students. Imagine a teacher from Pope High School being compared to one from North Clayton based on students’ scores. What a joke. We need to just go back to local control!!!!!!!
unjust
August 29th, 2011
8:20 pm
This teacher bashing is getting ridiculous. As a country, we don’t need teacher evaluations published, charter schools, NCLB, or Race to the Top. All of these things are just legislation passed to make the legislator of the moment look like he is doing something. The Devil You Say has it right – local control.
Curious One
August 29th, 2011
8:28 pm
Outrageous and totally problem filled solution that will only make matters much worst !
Dr. Craig Spinks/ Augusta
August 29th, 2011
8:39 pm
In the interest of transparency and accountability in government, let’s publish evaluations of all public employees. After all, the work of public employees is public business.
teacher&mom
August 29th, 2011
8:54 pm
Read this article from the NY Times and ask yourself if New York has any business publishing teacher ratings.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/27/nyregion/27teachers.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss
One has to wonder what are the chances of a “misranked” teacher winning a lawsuit?
Kathy II
August 29th, 2011
9:05 pm
I would like to know the pass/fail rate of a teacher…why not? I also think we need to remember that this provision is probably for Title I schools…because Non Title I schools do NOT receive any “extra” federal funding for schools that have at least a 35% free or reduced lunch rate. Again, an article that does NOT distinguish between the two school systems: the Title I and Non Title I schools.
As it is now parents can ask the LBOE if a teacher is highly qualified….so my question becomes. If the teachers are highly qualified to “be in the classroomj”….would it even matter if we know the pass fail rate? Teachers and school personnel WILL Always point in one direction when a child can’t even make a minimum passing score on a high stakes test….The PARENT is always to blame, so what difference does it make if we know any teacher’s pass/fail rate? So, two things: 1. This is about Title I schools…..2. Parents will be blamed in the end, and rightfully so. Even when parents are gullible, naive, ignorant, disabled, or even too trusting. It is OUR own fault when our children do NOT get the education outcome we expected. THe children belong to the parents , NOT any school system….I’m just hoping we get universal vouchers….because If and when I’m blamed for things, I’d like to know that I MADE the decision to put my child under such conditions.
Garry Owen
August 29th, 2011
9:12 pm
Thank goodness I started teaching in the late 60’s. I am now retired. Students and parents must be held accountable. In a classroom the teacher has to put up with (1) the trouble maker (2) the child whose parents are going through a divorce (3) a child who came to school with out breakfast and improperly dressed for cold weather (4) and students that learn at different rates and learn in different ways. Now, if you can balance all this plus all the paper work now required of teachers go right ahead and try your hand. You better be glad good teachers are still willing to work in public schools!
Jerry Eads
August 29th, 2011
9:14 pm
Relative to places like California, New York and Wisconsin, Georgia is relatively sane (a starkly amazing concept). These teacher ratings based on grossly incompetently developed tests are no better than darts blindfolded; virtually random shots in the dark. What the research shows over and over and over – and over and over again is that the BEST leave first, because they can. No matter how much they love teaching kids, it’s clear that we hate them for it. Implemet stupid, psychotic, lock step mindless policy and the ones you REALLY want teaching your kids will get out to do other things, leaving the least able. And the new ones you blindly fantasize will replace the “bad” teachers are smart enough to find other careers. Welcome to Rome. Georgia does in fact have lower test scores than virtually anywhere else in the country (by several different measures), which in fact is a function of poverty and its effects (not schooling), but New York and others are doing an absolutely fabulous job of working toward dead last. All we have to do, as we have for decades, is do nothing except have governors steal money from the schools to pay for their pet (and self-serving get rich quick personally) projects, and we could be midpack by doing absolutely nothing. Once more, welcome to Rome, and I don’t mean Rome Georgia.
Kathy II
August 29th, 2011
9:35 pm
@JerryEads: As LONG as one of the Federal Government’s education processes includes: “the more poor and uneducated populations a school district produces for the community….then the MORE Title I monies these “At Risk” schools and community receives. BTW: the Title I grant monies is NON REGULATED, even better to maintain the status quo. This is NOT about educating children or anyone else, this is ABOUT M-O-N-E-Y….federal welfare dollars for the poor. The GDOE has an entire dept. dedicated to oversee Title I programs that get paid right off the top. Then the Federal Title I monies trickles down to ALL the Title I administrators at the local level….If it were NOT for the Federal Title I dollars, where in the world would GEORGIA generate the almost 1/2 BILLION dollars for education it receives from the Federal Governmnet….Title I schools and IDEA programs even got a boost from the Amercian Reinvestment and Recovery Act…aka, stimulus money…NOTHING extra for the schools or teachers where over 35% of the parents pays a full price for school lunch.
Kathy II
August 29th, 2011
9:58 pm
According to the Georgia Constitution public education is paid for…..with tax dollars. Additionally, the constitution is specific, taxes that would provide an adequate education. Adequate is subjective.
THen Georgia’s compulsory school age? Six year olds to 16 years old. Ten years of an adequate pAublic education is all that is required. As long as the Georgia School Board and Superintendent’s Associations put parents and retired car salesmen in the same EXTERNAL stakeholders in the education process then parents MUST provide any extras for their child to exceed the “adequate” mark. What better way to close the achievement gap than for schools to “cap” learning for the better performing students while focusing on the lower performing stratas…bring the lower strata up, limit mobility of the average or above average students..and walluh, you have socialized education…everyone performing at the lowest z-score in Georgia education.
Active in Cherokee
August 29th, 2011
10:06 pm
@Jerry Eads – as always, thank you for sharing your thoughts on the testing policies. Hearing from someone with years of experience in the field is wonderful to see on a blog generally full of quassi or un-informed opinions.
Kathy II
August 29th, 2011
10:07 pm
for all of you who want to blame parents:
“The culture and climate of schools and school districts provide a sense of meaning for those internal members of the organizations as well as those external to the organization (Deal and Peterson, 1999). Groups that are considered internal members include school board members, district- and school-level administrators, faculty, staff, and students.
External stakeholders include parents, community leaders, the business community, civic organizations, the faith-based community, local, state, and federal elected officials, government and social agencies, and retirees.”
Kathy II
August 29th, 2011
10:30 pm
Any contract between a person under the age of 18 is NOT enforceble. Therefore, for the GSBA and Superintendent Association to view minors as internal stakeholders is for esthetics only.
The KIDS belong to their parents, so why do you suppose parents are on the OUTSIDE, excluded from the primary stakeholder group?
So everyone WILL blame parents for everything, EVEN if we are excluded from any decision making process and the public will blindly accept that parents are nothing but a bunch of low lifes seeking FREE rides and inflated grades for our hideous children….just as many of you have stated or implied.
d
August 29th, 2011
10:32 pm
I wish I could post a picture here, but I’ll have to post a link instead. It speaks volumes to the problem we face as teachers every day but those who couldn’t do my job seem to forget. Those who can, teach. Those who can’t pass laws about teaching.
http://yubanet.com/uploads/3/meritpay.jpg
Paulo977
August 29th, 2011
10:38 pm
HS Public Teacher
August 29th, 2011
4:53 pm
Are police evaluations, fire fighter evaluations, military evaluations also going to be made public?
We have lost it ….if we are not totally a prison system yet, we are surely on the way there!!!
Kathy II
August 29th, 2011
10:44 pm
I’d like to remind folks….before NCLB was passed in 2001 we had many many teachers teaching “out of field”. Then like everything else, we had some transition time and folks getting special provisions to be in the classroom…in fact TODAY, in 2011, we still do not have 100% highly qualified teachers in the classroom. It has only been ten years that teachers had to be adequately educated in a specific field like Math, Language Arts, Social Studies, or Science…to actually teach the subject. Teachers teaching out of field for DECADES …..is that the ignorant parent’s fault too?
Sure
August 29th, 2011
10:51 pm
Why just focus on teachers? I want to see doctor evaluations and success/failure rates. I want to see lawyer success rates. I want to see mechanic success rates. And all of this before I committ. I don’t want to spend money or wait to find out. To heck with what their trade organanizations say I want it ALL now and on the web so I can instantly choose.
Can you imagine where this would end up? Oh geeezz.
Lay off teachers already!
Kathy II
August 29th, 2011
11:02 pm
Look for the “Joint Commission on the Accredidation of Healthcare Organizations to find out about medical outcomes. The Better Business bureau is a good place to look or start when looking for a good mechanic. Lawyer? Well, according to a friend who works for a lawyer, MOST who deviate from the law find out who is good through the “grapevine”… So, how do we objectively know a good teacher?
Kathy II
August 29th, 2011
11:32 pm
BTW: The Local Board of Education, principals, and teachers all know the pass/failure rate of their classroom. Got that information from a teacher….the ONLY group that does NOT know? The parents and the community.
Over many years of observation I noticed a trend….all the teachers kids and the “honor roll kids” (thanks to publications of honor rolls in the media, awards day, etc) were grouped and placed in one teacher’s classroom. Now, who better to know which teachers were the MOST successsful? Other teachers…..
Ole Guy
August 29th, 2011
11:52 pm
We have “discussed” many odd dynamics within the educational community; initiatives such as this recent decision can only highlight the slippery slope upon which education…and a few generations…are sure to crash n’burn. While each one of these issues receives in-depth analyses, one cannot help but ponder just where it’s all supposed to lead. We can agree/disagree, call each other names, and issue astounding statements, often bordering on the mystical. The bottom line, as I see it:
THESE PEOPLE ARE NUTS! The educational profession is, most-certainly, the only profession managed and directed by non-educational folks; IT’S GOT TO STOP! It’s all-too apparent that those who pass such edicts do so, NOT with the betterment of education as the primary goal, but rather political featherbeding. After all, no one can/dare argue against “Mom, the Flag, and Apple Pie” issues; education has certainly become such an issue. Civic “leaders”, at both national and state levels view any title, preceded by EDUCATION as a political feather in the career cap, ie “the education president”, the education governor…anyone whose political claim to fame includes educational initiatives is deemed (correctly or not) a rousing success. Meanwhile, we, the “consuming” public (kids, parents, and ultimately, a citizenry dependent on an EDUCATED youth) must accept these foolish edicts…OR MUST WE?
This is leading back to my broken record; educators…and those remotely concerned with the state of education…had better TAKE COMMAND of the educational house. Those who have introduced “flypaper initiatives” (NCLB, teacher “ratings”, etc, ad nauseum) have obviously created avenues of guaranteed failure; as long as the educational community insists on remaining within the “kill zone” of aimless political directives, WE ALL LOSE!
Dr. Craig Spinks/ Augusta
August 30th, 2011
12:54 am
Let’s help John Barge and his team at GDOE straighten out our public education mess before it straightens us out.
Am incredulous that our public can’t relate our paucity of highly-paying, high-tech jobs in most of our smaller cities, towns and rural areas to the paucity of good schools and school systems in these locales.
Committed to Education
August 30th, 2011
1:04 am
I believe it is a great idea……. Thank you, everyone knows who the sorry teachers are and no one wants their children in those classes. Value added is the way to go, if you can’t add any value – then GO!
Watchful Eyes in Barrow
August 30th, 2011
3:32 am
Teachers are not just the problem. The supervisors are worse. My neighbors kids moved from an excellent school system in NY…..the kids were in the top 10% of their respective classes? And then here in GA., where we rank the lowest in SAT scores, the princpals felt these kids should be kept behind one grade….Nuts….just nuts……
Dr. Craig Spinks/ Augusta
August 30th, 2011
3:59 am
WEB,
“Stupid is as stupid does.”
d
August 30th, 2011
5:21 am
Committed to Education – you talk like children are inanimate products to have value added to…. it just doesn’t work like that in the real world.
Lee
August 30th, 2011
5:46 am
Newsflash, most parents, who are not asleep at the wheel, already know who the ineffective and not-worth-a-crap teachers are.
If schools were really interested in improving teacher effectiveness, they would provide a process where parents could evaluate the teacher on a semi-annual or annual basis. Likewise, teachers should be able to provide feedback regarding their immediate administration.
Oh wait, I said “if schools were really interested in improving.”
Nevermind….
Cobb History Teacher
August 30th, 2011
5:54 am
@Teacher1
Aren’t teachers taxpayers? Don’t they have the right to know how people who are receiving public assistance spend their dollars that are contributed by taxpaying teachers? Just asking…
I agree unfortunately we work in a system that preaches “what’s good for the Goose is not necessarily good for the Gander.”
Example: look at your contract it’s written in a way that protects the system only (it spells out their rights but says nothing about yours).
Cobb History Teacher
August 30th, 2011
5:58 am
Of course the question is does it matter? Unless you can request certain teachers in your system you get what you get. are school systems going to let parents pick their students teachers. Will it be fun vs. teachers who are fair and firm?
CmdrR
August 30th, 2011
6:03 am
$300,000 for an administrator, including $750 per month just to drive!!? (Lookin’ at you, DeKalb.)
No reduction in classroom size?
No push for home schooling?
Hey, absolutely put more pressure on the teachers. It must all be their fault, not the idiot politicians.
Former Middle School Teacher
August 30th, 2011
6:33 am
Public should also see student rankings. Fair is fair, no need to name the students, just show how well they performed going into that teachers class. In addition to grades, attendance should also be listed.
Double Zero Eight
August 30th, 2011
7:16 am
What do you expect from New York “know it alls” with law
degress masquerading as judges?
Double Zero Eight
August 30th, 2011
7:17 am
Spelled “degrees” incorrectly in prior post.
JW
August 30th, 2011
7:39 am
@ Jerry E. “Relative to places like California, New York and Wisconsin, Georgia is relatively sane (a starkly amazing concept).”
Before we start praising GA too much, just know that the idea of publicly publishing teacher “ratings” in Georgia has been discussed by some of our esteemed legislators. In fact, there was a discussion on this blog about it several months ago.
dcb
August 30th, 2011
7:40 am
No problem from this retired head of school – as long as all privacy laws are adjusted accordingly to include similar ratings and performance evaluations of judges, federal, state, and local government employees, and those of employees in the private sector.
vmancuso
August 30th, 2011
7:41 am
Imagine the difficulty in coming up with a relevant scoring system. Perhaps teacher ratings should be modified by a “student population factor” that takes into consideration their high or low quality
s
August 30th, 2011
7:52 am
I’m not sure one way or the other about these ratings being made public (I lean toward not) HOWEVER they ABSOLUTELY should be used internally for evaluation purposes, raises, retaining their jobs, etc.! Tenure is just so much horse crap if it allows ineffective teachers to remain!
unreal
August 30th, 2011
8:00 am
What would you expect from a state that approves same-sex marriages? Will the state rate the longevity of these marriages? Definitely not ordained by God.
Philosopher
August 30th, 2011
8:10 am
And while we’re at it- show the students’ performances in relation to each teacher- an eye opener, I’m sure- ..Sally has been an A student in Math all through her school years …but funny thing…she’s failing with Mr. Y who has a terrible rating. And those grades affect whether or not she gets scholarship assistance.
At Kathy II: Nice to see you speak out. As a parent of excellent students, I’m sick of being held hostage by the bad teachers who have absolutely no accountability. Parents are afraid to try to discuss issues with these teachers because of a history of retaliation against their kids… and the kids won’t speak up, either- for the same reason…and don’t bother to protest, folks, because every parent/student has been in that situation. . If I were a teacher, I’d be uncomfortable with these ratings, too…but you guys got yourselves in this mess by shutting parents out totally and completely. You wanted control, complete control. You’ve been riding the shirttail of “teachers are perfect and infallible” for long past its reality. You work for the public- you need to be accountable to the public…time for the pendulum to swing back a bit.
Philosopher
August 30th, 2011
8:19 am
And here’s a thought…perhaps some of you will be surprised to find how WELL you stand up to evaluation…ever think of that? I can list many, many more teachers that my children have had over the years who would shine…than those who would not do well.
Like the APS situation- perhaps if the teachers and administrators had been honest and transparent and the grades on tests showed just how poorly the kids are really doing, the public might be swayed to face and deal with the REAL situation. Hiding from the facts will accomplish nothing. If ability to teach truly is totally dependent on parental quality- and parents are the obstacle to education as most of you on this blog assert, then all teachers in all schools will fare poorly in the final anaysis and the truth will out…parents are the source of all the education problems today. You have nothing to worry about.
Dr. Craig Spinks/ Augusta
August 30th, 2011
8:49 am
Finally, a wise Philosopher.
Thanks!
Jerry Eads
August 30th, 2011
8:51 am
Fun discussion, everyone. Yes, the ‘those who can’t teach pass laws to make sure no one can’ is apt. And the cartoon was great.
What the ‘policymakers’ keep trying to do is take the responsibility for judging teachers away from where it belongs – because the where it belongs is all too often not competent to do the judging – in this system, the principal of the school.
Testing in and of itself is a good thing: we can help teachers learn all sorts of things to help kids. The problem is that the know-nothing about testing types (frequently educators as well as ‘decisionmakers’) somehow believe that you can take any old test and use it for any old purpose – in this case, judging teachers. Oh how I wish it were that easy, but as we’ve heard over and over (a) the tests aren’t good enough for that (aside from the fact they weren’t built for the purpose – ya don’t tow a yacht coast to coast with a lawn tractor) and (b) teaching is WAY too complex to judge using a bubble test that samples far less than a thousandth of what we actually want from schools for our kids.
The solution? Choose principals who didn’t get out of the classroom in a few years because they couldn’t teach – or hated it, and re-do the system so people who know something about teaching do the judging (for example, why on earth would you have a chemistry expert judge an English teacher). AND there are places working hard to make better principals.
I’m with @Craig: I like what I hear from John Barge. Let’s hope he can figure out how to keep the stars (and there are many) in the shop and send the evil and incompetent to the showers.
November 6, 2012
August 30th, 2011
8:52 am
Woe is me, woe is me, we are all doomed. We have been taken over by aliens…..
V for Vendetta
August 30th, 2011
9:08 am
Philosopher,
You make a good point; however, I have long contended that everyone knows who the bad teachers are anyway. It is not our fault that the bad teachers remain in front of a classroom. We don’t need a ratings system to tell us who is ineffective. What we need are administrators who care about students and aren’t afraid to FIRE bad teachers. But so many of them are concerned with the next step and playing the politically correct game that they refuse to rock the boat in any way shape or form. If bad teachers were FIRED, then we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
I still think releasing these types of ratings is disingenuous and not indicative of true teacher ability. I think we need to look for reform elsewhere in order to make meaningful changes.
Former APS Teacher
August 30th, 2011
9:21 am
After all this stupidity, anyone who stays or peruses the teaching profession is an idiot. I will work at McDonalds before I ever work as a teacher ever again.
Heidi
August 30th, 2011
9:28 am
I’ve been thinking that perhaps if teacher ratings should be made public, then the parent and administrative ratings should also be made equally public. Which parents read with their children? Which parents ensure that children do homework and get their children to school on time? Which pick them up on time? Which administrators support their teachers with discipline problems and provide the needed supplies so that teachers can teach? All of those things matter, and also should be put in the local newspaper. Let’s even up the playing field.
Grits
August 30th, 2011
9:37 am
First get the federal govenment out of state education, secondly eliminate teacher unions and watch the improvment.
Inman Park Boy
August 30th, 2011
9:41 am
Does anyone here believe that the teacher’s unions have the “best interest of the children” at heart? Of course not. As a professional teacher myself, one reason I have never even contemplated joining a union is that such an oirganization serves tprimarily o keep any teacher’s job, at any cost, not matter how rotten the teacher is in the classroom. That is no way to build a profession!
Philosopher
August 30th, 2011
9:41 am
@Heidi-sounds logical- except for the fact that that the teachers are getting paid to do their jobs-the parents are not. Each of us is evaluated on the job we do regardless of the factors that affect our jobs…so that one doesn’t work. And again…since parents are the major stumbling block for education, parent failure/success would affect evaluations consistently across the spectrum…doesn’t need to be separated out.
Once Again
August 30th, 2011
9:52 am
What difference will it make? Your kid is still stuck in the same school, your money is still being taken in taxes, you still have no choice in the matter, and poor performance isn’t going to get them fired thanks to either union protections or similar (yes, I know, no unions in GA).
In a private, free market, competitive system of education parents wouldn’t need to know teacher evaluations because the business owner would be properly handling their employees so as to maximize performance and customer satisfaction.
But then everyone is so in love with the government system of unaccountability and failure that they are too afraid to try something that works everywhere else in the economy. Hey, its only the children who suffer so who cares.
Mike
August 30th, 2011
10:10 am
Teachers are not the problem, parents and that no child should be left behind rule. All children are not equal, they don’t have the same resourses at home or the same help. We expect teachers to wave a wand and your child will learn. Parents need to be involved with their childrens home work know whats happening in the classroom. To often we don’t face facts, children learn better if there is reenforcement at home, PARENTS you have to step up to the plate You want good SAT scores practice just like you sports.
Philosopher
August 30th, 2011
10:13 am
“Teachers are not the problem.” Thanks for making my point…any evaluation will surely reflect that- all evaluations should be exactly the same…so why the angst?
Fericita
August 30th, 2011
10:16 am
This is clearly a terrible idea, and will not reveal who the bad teachers (of which there are a handful) are. But, assuming it actually did, why would you publish bad teacher’s names in the paper? Why wouldn’t you just fire them?
d
August 30th, 2011
10:30 am
@Grits – look at states who consistently rank near the top – New York, Massachusetts, etc….. all have STRONG Teacher’s unions. I guess teachers organizing themselves isn’t the problem, maybe we need to push for a strong teacher’s union in Georgia – and watch the improvement. Maybe once teachers have control of their own profession….. “Those who can, teach, those who can’t pass laws about teaching.”
Teachers Pet
August 30th, 2011
10:43 am
my wife is an elementary teacher who has changed kids lives for the better. most of her students come from single parent homes. most of these kids parents aren’t educated themselves and don’t give a damn about anything. she teaches them qualities and truths they’ll never learn in the system. it’s her gift… working with kids. she doesn’t do it just to get paid, but because she loves it, it’s her calling. they give her problem students and situations because they know she can handle it. they dump more and more on her, tying her hands and making her profession more and more difficult… they don’t give a damn either, but i do.
i am planning and working to get her the hell out of that profession asap!!
November 6, 2012
August 30th, 2011
10:59 am
The problem with a blog/story such as this is, the people who should be reading it, aren’t, so all the good comments/suggestions will not help those children who need help the most. Folks, it’s sad, but some people just simply don’t care about their children’s education. They’ve been with us forever and will still be here when/if our country turns into a socialistic society. Remember to vote on November 6, 2012. Oh, and “Unions” and their substitutes are not the answer……all they do is keep the rotten apples in the barrel.
William Casey
August 30th, 2011
11:06 am
@Philosopher: Your points are all well taken EXCEPT one: your assertion that parents are not to be held accountable because they are not PAID. Parents are “paid” all the time, albeit indirectly. Millions of education dollars are wasted on children ill-prepared by their parents. Millions of welfare dollars as well. Millions spent on prisons. The list goes on. I’m retired now but greatly resented adults who produced children and then turned them over to others to integrate into society. I would have glady had my teaching evaluations made public as long as “parenting” evaluations were as well. Every person producing a child should be required to attend one three-hour “parenting responsibilities” class per week as soon as the child enters school. I could easily teach such a course. Not willing? Don’t have children. We don’t allow people to drive without training and a license. Isn’t child-rearing equally important? Once again, publish my teaching evaluations all you want.
William Casey
August 30th, 2011
11:08 am
Parenting IS a job.
the prof
August 30th, 2011
11:18 am
I’m certainly against this, but if it’s going to happen…..take CRCT (or whatever test) score of beginning of year student (personal info withheld) and compare it with end of year test score??? Have a class list(names withheld) with “before” and “after” scores and throw in tardies, absences, referrals, misdemeanors, felonies???
Philosopher
August 30th, 2011
11:41 am
@William Casey: I never asserted that parents shouldn’t be held accountable- that is a separate issue. I said the teachers are being evaluated because they are the ones being paid to teach the children. When a doctor or nurse is evaluated, their patients are not evaluated along with them, see? Yes, the patients are often self-destructive, do not follow instructions, and make the healthcare worker’s job pure hell at times, but they are not the paid employees being evaluated…they are one factor influencing the employee’s performance.
JM
August 30th, 2011
11:45 am
“$300,000 for an administrator, including $750 per month just to drive!!?”
Anyone know when this absurb compensation started and by whom it was enacted? Obviously superintendants’ salaries weren’t set by the free market but rather were artificially imposed. It’s about time to slash their pay considerably, if that’s even possible.
Philosopher
August 30th, 2011
11:48 am
Addendum: Yes, the parents of child patients often create serious obstacles in the healthcare of children…they are not evaluated along with the healthcare worker, though.
d
August 30th, 2011
12:08 pm
@Nov 6…. I’ve seen my union gladly assist bad teachers in transitioning to a new career field. Do you really think we want the bad teachers giving our entire profession a bad name? Unfortunately, that’s what’s happening because all in all, truly bad teachers don’t usually last long in the profession, but so much focus has been on them rather than supporting teachers who are doing what they need to every single day.
William Casey
August 30th, 2011
12:17 pm
@Philosopher: if a patient does not cooperate with his doctor, I can GUARANTEE you that the outcome will NOT be good regardless of the doctor’s ability and effort. I have Type 2 diabetes to prove it!
Philosopher
August 30th, 2011
12:54 pm
Yes, that is true- usually over the long-term, too. But that is irrelevant to the subject at hand-…the doctor’s performance evaluation does not include evaluating his patients’ ..or his patients parents….
Good Mother
August 30th, 2011
1:03 pm
I agree with the courts. Let’s publish the information. The more information we have, the better decisions we can make.
Teachers are public officials. Just as we see a mayor’s or a president’s approval ratings so should we see a teacher’s approval ratings. We also need feedback on what parents say about a teacher, the administrators and schools in general.
We see crime reports in an area and we judge the police by those standards. The same is right to do for teachers and administrators.
Tax payers and citizens have a RIGHT to know what their government is doing. Public schools are the biggest and most important government services. Almost every American citizen uses a public school institution. We need to be able to measure how well they are performing.
The private sector is already that way. We can judge how many flights were ontime at an airline, what the reviews are at a restaurant. Public education should be no different.
Dr NO aka Mr Sunshine
August 30th, 2011
1:22 pm
Let me answer all these questions with a resounding YES. Public school teachers are public employees therefore the public has a right, in fact a DUTY to be informed and stay informed as to the progress of OUR employees.
Teacher 101
August 30th, 2011
1:25 pm
Last year I taught college prep chemistry with a 90% pass rate on state tests, so OBVIOUSLY that makes me an outstanding teacher. This year, I teach non-college prep science to a group of students composed of a combination of about 75% learning disabled and English learners. They work very hard and are very motivated, yet, typically less than 50% of them score passing on their state tests, which OBVIOUSLY means that this year I will be a bad teacher. Unfortunately, average Americans, including journalists who want to publish the numbers, are not knowledgable enough in the field to understand what they are looking at, which is why they should not be published. In fact, SHAME on the state of New York for even keeping stats like this in the first place. If I were to start all over again, I would work at McDonalds and live out of my car before I would become a teacher in a state or district that does this to its teachers.
November 6, 2012
August 30th, 2011
1:37 pm
@d
August 30th, 2011
12:08 pm
@Nov 6…. I’ve seen my union gladly assist bad teachers in transitioning to a new career field.
Yeah……I bet they were bad in that new career field, also. Sorry “D”, I have no use for unions, they’re sucking the lifeblood out of this country.
Philosopher
August 30th, 2011
1:58 pm
@November 6, 2012: yes- abolish unions…and with it weekends, lunch breaks and coffeee breaks. We need forced overtime without increased pay, no benefits and children working 40 hour weeks…yes, that will bring America back to it’s former glory…and provide children with a much better education, too. Can’t wait!!
M
August 30th, 2011
2:16 pm
Teacher ratings will help parents know if they need to supplement or watch more closely a particular teacher. It’s interesting, if sad, that none of the teachers commenting seem to care about the impact of a bad or mediocre teacher on their students. You do your profession a disservice by circling the wagon. Studies have shown that the negative effect of a bad teacher is greater than the impact of a great one. Schools are for students, not teachers, not administrators.
Sha'Quonda
August 30th, 2011
2:16 pm
If my kid’s teacher is rated “below average” or “low” I’d want to know it…assuming the rating is accurate. There’s the rub. That rating system better be as near reliable and foolproof as humanly possible, otherwise it’s useless and totally unfair to the teacher.
If the rating system is sound, then someone at the “below average” or “low” rank should not even be in a classroom.
Dr NO aka Mr Sunshine
August 30th, 2011
2:31 pm
“Unfortunately, average Americans, including journalists who want to publish the numbers, are not knowledgable enough in the field to understand what they are looking at, which is why they should not be published”
MmmmHmmmm…likely story but then again their is always a wonderful self-righteous story followed by pity. Awwww…
THE SCORES WILL BE PUBLISHED and you will be judged accordinly.
PS…you example is weak, at best. Us dummys in the private sector can sniff out your kind in about 30 seconds. YOU LOSE!
unreal
August 30th, 2011
2:53 pm
@ Good mother… publish your rating…you are full of it
M
August 30th, 2011
2:55 pm
Value-added assessments measure how much the students in a classroom learn during a particular school year, based on the students’ starting points. Each month of learning has its value. For example, Teacher A may have a 3rd grade classroom where the students in August read at the average level of students who have been in third grade for 2 months–in other words, 3.2. Her students are ahead. Teacher B may have students reading at the average of students who have been in the second grade for 6 months: 2.6. In other words, they are behind. If at the end of the 3rd grade, teacher A’s students now read at the 4.2 level, they have learned a school year’s worth of material. If teacher B’s students now read at at a 3.8 level, they have actually learned proportionately more than teacher A’s students, although they are still behind.
Obviously, students matter. The more students are behind, the more likely they have learning issues of one kind or another, such as intellect or poverty. Not every student can do well. The value-added assessments need to be weighted for special needs students and other indicators such as the number of students receiving free or reduced lunches.
What’s important is a pattern over several years. If over 3 or 4 years of weighted assessments, teacher C’s students are losing two or three months of learning they should be able to master, teacher C is the problem. Perhaps remediation would help; perhaps teacher C needs to find another field.
But over those 3 or 4 years, teacher C has been teaching students. Those students did not receive an optimal education. That’s the concern, and that’s more important than teacher C’s reputation. Maybe teacher C’s students lose the months in math. Parents should receive a checklist of what their students should be learning each month, and information on where to find supplemental materials. They should be able to request supplemental testing and to be reasssured that the principal is monitoring the situation.
To Public Schools are Welfare Agencies by Good Mother
August 30th, 2011
3:12 pm
The reason we don’t need to rate and publish ratings for parents is that parents are not paid by tax payer funds.
I’m a good parent and a tax payer. I have a right to know what I am getting for my money, particularly when it comes to something as important as my children.
Just think of it, we publish crime statistics and we judge the effectiveness of the police.
We publish sanitation inspection reports in every restaurant.
We publish how often flights are on time at an airline and how many customer complaints they received.
We publish the safety records and recall records for cars and other consumer products.
Scrutiny of our United States government is what makes our government the absolute best. We as citizens are allowed to scrutinized and criticize through freedom of speech and freedom of the press. We need to exercise our rights and not fold into the silly notion that we all need to give our teachers and schools pep rallies to make them better. We don’t need to hide fault. We need to illuminate it, analyze it and determine what we can do better.
Dr NO aka Mr Sunshine
August 30th, 2011
3:13 pm
Phil. Unions were needed during their time, however, their time has passed. We need a Union-Busting President not crybaby like Obama.
Philosopher
August 30th, 2011
3:41 pm
“Unions were needed during their time, however, their time has passed. We need a Union-Busting President not crybaby like Obama.”
The president, no matter who that may be, cannot absolve unions. And the minute unions cease, we return to a life of hell for anyone except the MAN. Forget it- just like freedom of speech, unions may have their negatives, but the alternative is unacceptable!
To unreal
August 30th, 2011
3:44 pm
Sure unreal. I’ll publish my rating.
Let’s start with my monetary contribution to APS. I pay $4500 a year in property taxes. I fork over cash to the teachers and the PTA and buy everything everyone sells. I provide supplies for the school — I seek out every teacher, not just my child’s teacher. Just yesterday I delivered art supplies for the entire school.
Snacks — I provide for all the students. I am a room mother — did I mention I work full time ? Yes, and I am the room mother. I’m at every PTA meeting, every principal meeting — and I have to sacrifice my living. I do not get paid while I am at these meetings.
I hire an after school babysitter to nap and help my children with homework. All homework is complete and reviewed and graded by me. My children are well-rested, well fed, impeccably groomed and respectfully dressed.
They ask “May I please…” or “Will you please…. and say “Yes, please” or “No, thank you.”
We are not just on time, we are early, every single day.
We have a curriculum over the Summer months. Education is not nine months out of the year at my house.
I do everything every whiney teacher on this blog says that parents don’t do. There are GOOD teachers on this blog — thank you, Beck and there are whiney little brat teachers who think they are entitled to work nine months a year, collect a pension and benefits and not be held accountable and they continue to bash ALL parents. I have yet to read a blog by a teacher who says she or he has some good parents. What I hear is the students are horrible and all parents are to blame.
My children’s teacher thanks her lucky stars every day for a parent like me.
Any teacher would love to have a parent like me.
Those teachers need to go.
Philosopher
August 30th, 2011
3:56 pm
@To unreal-did you just copy an old posting I wrote? lol- finally, another parent to say what I have been saying all along…It’s not just the parents!
Philosopher
August 30th, 2011
3:57 pm
Well, I didn’t mean both to and @ Unreal…just one of those.
Just Maybe?
August 30th, 2011
4:05 pm
Gee, there isn’t any name (though it’s required) for “To Unreal” at 3:44, nor is there one at the end of this long post. Could it be Good Mother, trying to hide the fact that she’s ranting again?
Nat Turner
August 30th, 2011
4:08 pm
Did you really expect Unreal to be honest? All the parents on this blog pretend to be the best parents with perfect, smart, well-behaved and well-mannered children.
I bet Good Mother aka Unreal greets her children with freshly baked cookies every afternoon.
It is about as real as a reality t.v. show.
Philosopher
August 30th, 2011
5:14 pm
When you have no defense, you simply call the other person a liar…and then you win.
Ole Guy
August 30th, 2011
6:26 pm
Grits, from what point of perspective do you base your feelings that union elimination would lead to educational improvements? Do you have stats and/or experience to back up this assertion? OR, stated in a “less-kindly” manner…DO YOU KNOW WHAT IN HELL YOU’RE SPOUTING? To be sure, unions, within other fields of endeavor, have played no small part in driving that organizational wedge between labor and managements, thus leading to eventual organizational degredation.
d, what is your experience? You seem to support a union presence within the Georgia Teacher Corps; indeed, this WOULD lend to teachers, THE EDUCATIONAL EXPERTS, assuming control of their profession; the end result would most-certainly be an educational improvement.
Teacher report cards, IN A PROFESSIONAL FORMAT, would certainly be a very useful tool, both for teachers, and the “consuming public”…students and parents. HOWEVER, given educational managements’ record of (somewhat) subjective teacher evals, one would have very little confidence in viewing these “report cards” as anything but another skewer with which to corral the teacher corps into good behavior borne of fear.
Teacher 101
August 30th, 2011
7:12 pm
“MmmmHmmmm…likely story but then again their is always a wonderful self-righteous story followed by pity. Awwww…
THE SCORES WILL BE PUBLISHED and you will be judged accordinly.
PS…you example is weak, at best. Us dummys in the private sector can sniff out your kind in about 30 seconds. YOU LOSE!”
Yikes, you sound like God. “YOUR SCORES WILL BE PUBLISHED…” I imagine a booming Barry White-like voice thundering down from heaven. I would be trembling in my boots, except I’m fairly certain that God knows the difference between “there, their, and they’re” and he probably also knows how to spell “dummies.” I WIN! If that’s what I even cared about doing, anyways.
But seriously, what I am is a 19-year veteran teacher who knows that the numbers have a lot more behind them than anyone outside education knows. I’ve had great scores in years when I taught gifted students in advanced courses and I’ve had lower scores in years when I’ve taught students who were faced with great obstacles. I always aim to improve on wherever they are when they come to me, but I also realize that I cannot fix them all.
What I wonder is, at the high school level, what happens to the teachers who teach courses that are not evaluated by standardized testing? And, also, when students typically have a different teacher for each different semester of a full-year course, they only take one test–which teacher gets the credit (or gets to be the dog)?
Also, to Good Mother: “The reason we don’t need to rate and publish ratings for parents is that parents are not paid by tax payer funds.”
This is absolutely not true. Quite a few parents are actually paid by taxpayer funds.
“Just think of it, we publish crime statistics and we judge the effectiveness of the police.”
Well, actually you are confusing general statistics of the agencies involved with statistics of individuals employed. Looking at educational statistics to judge the effectiveness of the schools would be parallel to what you stated above. Those statistics are out there ad nauseum. Graduation rates, AYP, School Report Cards, etc. The idea comparable to seeing each teacher’s individual rating would be the equivalent of seeing each individual police officer’s arrest and subsequent conviction rating. You can have a stellar police department with a few incompetent officers, and vice versa–a horrible department with a few superstars. Schools are exactly the same.
And here is a little more food for thought. I have worked in two different schools. In one, 95% of students pass every standardized test they ever take on the first try. In the other, test scores range from very low to very high on different tests depending on various factors. The teachers in both schools, however, teach just the same. The teachers in the higher achieving schools do not have any “magic bullet.” They just have the high-achieving demographics.
William Casey
August 30th, 2011
7:18 pm
@Philosopher: the entire purpose of performance evaluations is to improve educational outcomes, not play “gotcha,” so yes, client cooperation does matter.
Philosopher
August 30th, 2011
8:15 pm
@william casey: Using your bogus argument no one is responsible for his/her performance unless all their clientele are cooperative, easy to work with, and follow all instructions to the letter.
I love teaching. I hate what it is becoming...
August 30th, 2011
9:00 pm
For all those folks who think schools should be run like a business, how about this…
How many business owners and CEOs would allow their business to be evaluated by a measurement that has a 25-35% error rate and then allow those “findings” to be reported to shareholders without complaint?
When they come up with a method to evaluate teachers that has a statistically insignificant error rate and takes into account all the variation among subjects, students, grade levels, methods of providing educational services, administrative support, school funding, parental support, etc. then I will jump on board… but I will not sit back and meekly accept myself and my colleagues being “evaluated” and judged by a flawed methodology that even those who created the performance ratings have come out and stated should NOT be used to make decisions about teachers’ inherent abilities.
You want to know how well a teacher is doing with your child? Then arrange for a conference and talk with them! Ask questions and listen to the answers. Visit the school and do a walk through. Come have lunch with your child and look around. It really does not take that much to get a feel for what is going on in a school. Don’t depend on a bunch of dry testing data to tell you if your child is being supported or not…
Philosopher
August 30th, 2011
9:21 pm
Horse hockey- every business has its difficulties- that the part you are EXPECTED to handle in order to get the job done that you are paid to do. I can’t tell if a doctor is any good by sitting in his office and chewing the fat- it’s the OUTCOMES that make him/her a good doctor or not. An uncooperative, noncompliant patient will not do well…but the majority of the patients will respond to correct, professional treatment. Same goes with teachers- a decent teacher may have some who do not learn well or do not choose to do the work…buut the majority will respond well to a good teacher.
d
August 31st, 2011
5:49 am
@Ole Guy, I am a seventh year teacher. My feeling about educators being in charge of their profession comes from the fact that I look at other service-based industries whose professional associations (such as AMA and ABA) set the standards for admission to those professions. As an teacher, I am constantly subject to regulations that come from veterinarians, architects, realtors, accountants, etc who have never actually been in a classroom since they graduated high school themselves. Unlike in the late 19th and early 20th centuries where teachers could simply be high school graduates, teachers today must be well versed on both content and pedagogy and have coursework on child developmental psychology, the needs of special learners, and so on.
Cobb History Teacher
August 31st, 2011
5:56 am
@ philosopher
“..Sally has been an A student in Math all through her school years …but funny thing…she’s failing with Mr. Y”
Is Mr. Y a Math teacher? One thing I’ve noticed is some people think because a student has an A in one or two classes they should have A’s in all classes. I was an A students in Social studies because I liked it and excelled, but I was a C – D student in math because I did not understand and often was confused (no, I do not blame the teacher they did their best I’m just not a math person).
Some students excel in some classes because they are more interested in that subject or because they have a gift.
The problem is teachers can’t be everything to everyone. Case and point: I have had back to back parent conferences in which on parent says I give too much homework and the next says I don’t give enough…so which is it? We can’t please everyone. That’s the problem with rating teachers. I know teachers who are terribly popular because they are fun but they are not the best educators, and i know teachers who are hated because they are hard and require much from their students. Are we rating someone on their effectiveness or on their popularity?
Cobb History Teacher
August 31st, 2011
6:05 am
@ V for Vendetta
What we need are administrators who care about students and aren’t afraid to FIRE bad teachers.
I agree but what ever happened to retraining bad teachers and helping them to get better. we don’t fire bad students. If a student earns an F on the first assignment we don’t fail them for the year. The problem I have with the phrase fire bad teachers is that it breeds an atmosphere of fear. Why not rehabilitate them rather than fire them? All that is going to happen is that another unsuspecting or desperate system is going to pick them up. If they aren’t hired the taxpayer then has to pay then unemployment and other benefits because they don’t have a job.
I love teaching. I hate what it is becoming...
August 31st, 2011
6:12 am
Philosoher,
People walk into a business because they WANT the service provided. Patients go to the doctor because they WANT to get a checkup or treatment. You are looking at a self-selected “customer” base. That makes a HUGE difference. Give me a room full of students who WANT to be there and WANT to learn, and yes, I can make a big difference, even if they are struggling. However, that is often not the reality.
Philosopher
August 31st, 2011
6:36 am
I think the subject most of you would best excel at teaching is whinese. Bring on the evaluations…bet you will then begin to EARN the respect you demand and EARN the right to be called a profession…just like the rest of us. Regardless of the cards we are dealt, the REST of us are evaluated on our performances.
To Nat Turner
August 31st, 2011
8:23 am
No freshly baked cookies, just grapes or occassional treats out of the bag. But, why the cynicism? Why is it so hard for you to believe that some parents are good parents?
Did you have good parents?
Are you a good parent?
To I love teaching from Good Mother
August 31st, 2011
8:27 am
Why in the world do you think children don’t want to learn?
Children are born wanting to learn. They are also born wanting to help.
If your students do not want to learn it is because they have been taught, likely by a teacher, that school is boring.
I have had some good teachers in my day and one of my child’s teachers is good but some are absolutely horrible. One parks my son in front of a computer a couple hours a day with the headphones on.
The teacher calls it “self-directed” learning.
I call it lazy.
I hear teachers complain that students are parked in front of TVs and computers at home and they are not educated by their parents — but this is EXACTLY what is happening at APS.
To Teacher 101 from Good Mother
August 31st, 2011
8:42 am
There are no high achieving demographics. That’s a thinly veiled racist statement that says black kids can’t learn. Of course black kids can learn as well as whites.
There is no “smart gene” embedded in the melanin in one’s skin.
What is imbedded is an attitude about education. Black parents, poor and middle class do not read to their children as often as all whites. Poor whites read to their kids more than poor and middle class blacks. That begins the gap.
What furthers the gap — as a group in Atlanta, a stellar education is considered not a good thing in the black community. Black kids are teased for “acting white” when they succeed in education.
My friend and neighbor was born into poverty into a third world country and spoke no English until she moved to the United States. She now speaks perfect English. She is black and so are her children, who also speak English perfectly. My neighbor’s children are harassed by other black children for “acting white.”
However, my child’s teacher, who is black and born in the United States cannot use a singular verb. All her verbs are plural. She cannot speak using simple sentences.
For example: “Your lunch box (go) on the table.”
Every other sentence that comes out of her mouth is embarrassing and she is an APS teacher.
I do not wonder why her students do not score well on tests. She is teaching them incorrectly by example. It is a shame, a disgrace and an embarrassment and she should never be in a classroom, much less teaching students. At home I often have to “undo” the bad language habits my child learns from the APS teacher.
As a group, Asian parents value education and the results show. Their kids are kicking butt in school.
To Cobb History Teacher from Good Mother
August 31st, 2011
8:50 am
I read your post regarding some parents wanting more homework and some wanting less.
Can you be flexible?
For example, if a parent wants more homework for their child, assign more homework. If you need to be fair with grades and assignments, you can consider not requiring the extra assignments to be part of the grade.
It seems to be you can be flexible if you wanted to be flexible.
I have a similar situation in that I am a working parent. Homework is assigned on Monday and is due on the following Friday morning. As a working parent, I have very little opportunity to do homework with my child and I asked the teacher to assign it to my child early — to give it to me on Friday instead of waiting until Monday.
Both years both teachers flat out refused to do it.
So I dug deep and saved money to hire an after care babysitter to help with homework but that leaves me out of the equation.
I am a good parent and I want to work with my children more often but the teachers are inflexible.
Now on the weekends I make up my own assignments and my own curriculum but a little flexibility on the teacher’s part would certainly be in order and is a reasonable request…
so I encourage you to give it a try — give more homework to those that want it — and ENcourage them to do it and THANK the parent for partnering with you.
Dr NO aka Mr Sunshine
August 31st, 2011
8:59 am
“what I am is a 19-year veteran teacher who knows that the”
Thanx 4 thuh grammer/spellig leson!
November 6, 2012
August 31st, 2011
10:21 am
@Philosopher
August 30th, 2011
1:58 pm
@November 6, 2012: yes- abolish unions…and with it weekends, lunch breaks and coffeee breaks. We need forced overtime without increased pay, no benefits and children working 40 hour weeks…yes, that will bring America back to it’s former glory…and provide children with a much better education, too. Can’t wait!!
Yeah, I can’t wait for you “Union, That’s not my job” types to get back to work, also. It would certainly increase productivity in America
To d from Good Mother
August 31st, 2011
10:41 am
D, you write “teachers today must be well versed on both content and pedagogy and have coursework on child developmental psychology, the needs of special learners, and so on.”
So why is it d, that my child’s teacher can’t even speak and write at an elementary school-level ?
She can’t even write a coherent sentence in a note home to all parents.
English Teacher
August 31st, 2011
11:16 am
@ Dr. No aka Mr. Sunshine, 8:59 am. “what I am is a 19-year veteran teacher who knows that the”
Thanx 4 thuh grammer/spellig leson!
”
There is absolutely nothing wrong here with the grammar or spelling.
d
August 31st, 2011
11:40 am
@Good Mother…. I cannot, and therefore refuse to comment on an individual whom I have never met. Sorry that I cannot answer your question. I would say, however, in the system where I work, parents have a lot of power. I would express your concerns to your principal and request a new teacher for your child, and if that does not work, go to the superintendent and Board of Education if necessary. A principal doing his or her job can easily fire teachers not up to par – even if they have fair dismissal. All “tenure” is is the right to a fair dismissal hearing at which point a principal will need to provide documentation with the reasons for non-renewal including any remediation plans that they have put in place. If that doesn’t happen, it’s not the teacher’s fault, it is the principal’s fault.
I would suggest your efforts to fix this situation would be better aimed at talking to the teacher and leadership rather than complaining in a blog.
Teacher 101
August 31st, 2011
12:07 pm
English Teacher, it’s okay, I think Mr. Sunshine was just being a good sport and making a joke. But I appreciate the backup and I’m glad to know my grammar and spelling were good. That is important to me.
Teacher 101
August 31st, 2011
12:51 pm
Good Mother, I didn’t mention black, white, or any other color. There is no specific demographic that I was talking about. We had many more African-American students in the school with the 95% pass rate than we do where I currently teach. Research shows that socioeconomic status (income) is the most relevant demographic that ties to achievement, as higher education level directly results in higher paying jobs and also corresponds with those who place more value on education. And one should not automatically assume that when I compare incomes that I mean the minorities have the smaller incomes. That was not the case in my former district. It is obvious that around Atlanta there are more successful, middle-class to wealthy African American families who value education than anywhere else I’ve ever seen.
The point was, in either school, great teachers are doing similar things with different results–it’s not simply that you have better teachers in one school than another. Are there bad teachers? Of course. Is it harder to get good teachers to teach in urban districts like APS? Of course. Not because of colors, because of all the baggage those kids carry in that has to be overcome before they can learn. Some teachers are great with that and want that situation, but that is rare. And as a result, sometimes it is difficult to find a good teacher to fill a position, and they have to take whoever is available.
So, theoretically, let’s wipe out all the bad teachers. Why did that teacher get hired in the first place? Probably because there was no one else who wanted the job. So who is going to replace that teacher? Can we brainstorm ideas about how to get good teachers to want these jobs?
To Teacher 101 from Good Mother
August 31st, 2011
1:20 pm
You asked “So, theoretically, let’s wipe out all the bad teachers. Why did that teacher get hired in the first place? Probably because there was no one else who wanted the job. So who is going to replace that teacher? Can we brainstorm ideas about how to get good teachers to want these jobs?”
She got hired likely because she is black. APS has a black administration and a black agenda. So the bad teacher gets hired because she is black, not because of her skills. There are good black teachers but she isn’t one of them.
How do we hire better teachers? We make standards higher. One has to pass a test to get a teaching job. There are plenty of people who want to be teachers but right now there is a hiring freeze because the criminal teachers who cheated on the tests are now on administrative leave with full pay. APS is paying ONE MILLION dollars a month for those cheating teachers who are not working.
There will always be plenty of good, honest people who want to be teachers. We just have to have higher hiring standards and higher passing standards, meaning, those people who want to teach should have to pass a standardized test too, one that includes verbal communication.
I’m all for brainstorming too. How about making it a 12 month a year job instead of a part time job? In the Summers, teachers could concentrate on those students who are exemplary and need to advance and on those students who are behind and need to catch up.
To D from Good Mother
August 31st, 2011
1:24 pm
I’ve done all you asked with no result. There is no option to take my child out of that classroom because all the other classrooms are overcrowded.
But labeling my blogging as “complaining” is surely duplicitous as you do the same. This is what freedom of speech means, redressing grievances. I have a grievance with my government institution and I am complaining about it.
If you don’t like it, d, just skip my comments and read others.
To Philosopher from Good Mother
August 31st, 2011
1:40 pm
Yes, I read your comments and agree. It’s not just the parents. What is very telling is that I’ve never read a blog from a teacher that says there are some good parents. I would love to hear just one teacher say “Yes, I have some good parents in my school and I am grateful for their support.”
To Cobb History teacher from Good Mother
August 31st, 2011
1:46 pm
You write: “The problem I have with the phrase fire bad teachers is that it breeds an atmosphere of fear. Why not rehabilitate them rather than fire them?”
They should be afraid! If they are bad they need to go now because our children cannot wait for their teacher to become a good teacher.
We in the private sector are fired when we don’t produce. We lose our jobs immediately as we are appraised annually and sometimes twice a year. We cannot afford for our children to lose an education and be behind at the next grade because some lazy teacher is bad and we need to give him or her time to “rehabilitate.”
The bad teacher should never be in the classroom to begin with. Another reason is if a student gets a bad teacher, that student will not be prepared for the next grade — and that subsequent teacher cannot make up for all the work the previous teacher didn’t do.
Yes, teachers should be afraid of losing their jobs just as we in the private sector are afraid everyday of losing our jobs.
If you are a good teacher, Cobb History teacher, you should be thrilled to get the dead wood out of the school so that you can do a better job of teaching your students.
d
August 31st, 2011
2:28 pm
@Good Mother – I never said you don’t have the freedom to express your opinion. I am sorry that you seem to be having the issues that you are having. I do not complain about specific individuals. I work to address overall issues affecting the education of our children. The readers of this blog have little power to affect personnel decisions at a local school. I know in my system, people complain and then they reelect the people causing the problems. Perhaps the answer is to run for the BOE yourself. I don’t have that luxury, unfortunately.
And, believe it or not, I find myself agreeing with you on some occasions. This just happens to be one time I do not.
Philosopher
August 31st, 2011
6:51 pm
@November 6, 2012 : You know nothing of me- personal attacks are a crappy, idiotic form of argument- I have worked 14-16 hour days, most often without breaks at all, for most of my entire working life- Remember what the teachers taught us now…ASSUME makes and ASS out of you!
Ole Guy
August 31st, 2011
8:16 pm
Thanks, d, for your detailed response. Inasmuch as the educational systems, both in Georgia, and throughout the Country, should be/must be run AND managed by the resident experts…the teachers…I am/have always been in favor of unionization. To be sure, the history of organized “labor” (a term utilized with much leeway) is fraught with adversity and…all-too-often…organizational harm. However, unions do, indeed, have their rightful place in the labor/management saga of any organization…particularly one in which labor has absolutely no voice in the conduct of affairs/teaching.
I DO indeed become somewhat skeptical when comments, such as those eminating from Grits, do not seem to be in accord with the root problems du jour. If a comment is borne of experience…good or bad/agree or disagree…I can respect the views expressed. However, if those comments, as with what would seem to be the basis upon which many comments are formed, originate from a basis of UNINFORMED opinion, I become just a wee bit irrate.
I all honesty, my classroom experience is both short and somewhat dated; I have always felt, however, that the teacher corps, like any professional group, needs a collective voice in order for their profession to thrive. Based on my extremely limited experience, and my gut instinct, however, I have always suspected that the corps, as individual teachers, is just a tad too timid to attack the issues in an agressive manner…TO TAKE COMMAND OF THEIR PROFESSION.
Perhaps, d, you might be willing to “push that snowball over the hill” and introduce a union shop into the state.
I love teaching. I hate what it is becoming...
August 31st, 2011
9:06 pm
Philosopher,
“Bring on the evaluations…bet you will then begin to EARN the respect you demand and EARN the right to be called a profession…”
I AM a professional, thank you. I HAVE been evaluated – every year for the past 20 years in my profession. Every one of those evaluations scored me as excellent at my job. I am not worried about being evaluated. I am worried about being evaluated by a methodology which has been PROVEN to have a very high error rate, which was the whole point of my post!
GM “Why in the world do you think children don’t want to learn? Children are born wanting to learn. They are also born wanting to help.”
Children may have been born wanting to learn, but as you pointed out, they can be “taught” to dislike school work. They can be taught to dislike having to try, to put forth any effort, to take risks…and this attitude often does NOT come from the school.
You ask me how I can believe children don’t want to learn? First off all, I did not generalize to “children” as a whole. Children are NOT all the same…they come from vastly different background with vastly different influences. What works for one, will NOT work for another. You can’t just generalize to all children. Nor should people generalize to all teachers, or all parents. However, just a few unmotivated children in a classroom can wreck havoc with a VAM type of evaluation of a teacher.
Thankfully, many children DO want to learn, and DO want to help. However, I have also had students flat out tell me (at age 6) that they didn’t need to learn anything because they were going to stay home, watch TV and collect a “check” like mama does. Given a choice, most children would rather play on their Wiis than do their homework, and some parents give them that choice. I have also had student who would rather punch my lights out than “help” me in any way. It wasn’t anything personal. They would like to punch out everyone’s lights. They were that full of anger. They didn’t get that anger from school.
P.S. Perhaps you need to go back and reread some of my previous comments, as I have several times mentioned my supportive parents and how much I appreciate them.
Ole Guy
September 1st, 2011
8:21 am
Love Teaching…Hate what it’s become:
I agree, kids both want to learn and want/need to help. The difficulty arrises in motivation and drive to ACTIVELY pursue that which the kid NEEDS to know, as opposed to that which is perceived as “fun stuff”. Education, therefore, seems to have become far too diluted in those “fun things”, while blocking out the “meat an’ taters” of the subject matter. Then, the dislike of school work, as you have indicated, sets in.
Whether this influence comes from poor teaching or from the home environment is/should not be the major consideration. I believe this “at risk” tag only “allows” the kid to feel justified in “not wanting to learn”…”IT’S OUTA MY CONTROL!
STANDARDS and CONSEQUENCES…that’s the key.
November 6, 2012
September 1st, 2011
9:36 am
@Philosopher
August 31st, 2011
6:51 pm
@November 6, 2012 : You know nothing of me- personal attacks are a crappy, idiotic form of argument- I have worked 14-16 hour days, most often without breaks at all, for most of my entire working life- Remember what the teachers taught us now…ASSUME makes and ASS out of you!
I was making a broad statement and even though things are really getting bad in DC, I believe that my rights to an opinion are still intact……my, you’re touchy. “and ME” is the last of the phrase and I believe you meant “an” instead of “and”
Have a nice day…….
Tychus Findlay
September 1st, 2011
12:50 pm
Effective teaching demands a disciplined classroom, and discipline begins at home. It is unfortunate that so many teachers are impacted by lack of parenting spilling into their classrooms. It’s small wonder why private school teachers gladly take a reduced salary versus their public sector compatriots to not have to deal with unruly behavior.
If parents want to leave the parenting to teachers, then give the paddle back to the teachers and butt out of the disciplinary aspect.
To Tychus Findlay from Good Mother
September 1st, 2011
1:57 pm
Paddling doesn’t work. It escalates violence. Think about it. Boys are fighting on a playground so what do you do to teach them not to fight? Hit them with a paddle? That’s stupid but I understand your frustration. I have to make myself not spank. I have to force myself not to yell.
Rewards work well. Incentives work well especially for the very young. For older kids, in school suspension works. No cell. No iphone. No ipod. No friends. Just the student and a book.
I don’t have any patience for teachers who complain their students “argue” with them. It takes two or more to argue.
When my children give me a lame excuse, a whine or complaint I give them a choice.
You either do this this way, immediately or you will go here and do that immediately. For example:
You can do your homework now and then watch 30 mintues of TV or you get no TV and you will sit at this table until your homework is done while I am sitting here with you.
Discipline must be consistent, predictable and humane.
You can say to the student. “You speak when I allow you to speak.” You do not talk when I am talking.
It’s that simple.
It’s nerve racking, it’s frustrating but it’s absolutely “do-able.”
Query
September 1st, 2011
2:08 pm
@ Good Mother. And what do you do if the students keep on talking anyway? When you can’t physically punish them, and all class discipline cases sent to the principal’s office are sent right back to the classroom?
When, quite literally, the administration will not back up the teacher? This is true for many many schools.
To Query from Good Mother
September 1st, 2011
3:12 pm
RE: Talkative types. Who is the student talking to? Another student?
Put the student in a chair alone, by your desk. Put him or her at the front of the classroom facing only you.
How often are you actually sending the kid to the principal’s office? Every time?
Discuss it with the principal and parents.
If the principal isn’t backing you up, other teachers would likely feel the same way. Get organized and go as a group to the principal, then escalate. To the super and the State.
But I doubt it has to go that far.
You earn respect, it isn’t given.
Don’t befriend your older students. Get off Facebook. Dress like a professional. Speak as a professional. Don’t tell any jokes.
Get serious and so will they.
We as students knew which teachers we could derail and which ones we couldn’t. I had a teacher who hated President Nixon. All we had to do was mention him and she would be off and derailed for the rest of the day and do no work.
If your students are young, use incentives. Treasure boxes work well. Students earn small toys by behaving well. They work great.
I love teaching. I hate what it is becoming...
September 1st, 2011
7:18 pm
GM,
You have some good ideas – and in a reasonable situation, they would work. However, you must understand, many of us don’t teach in “reasonable situations.” We teach in schools where the prinicipal is having an affair with a school board member, and if you complain about anything you lose your job. We teach in schools where the prinicipal is the cousin of the Superintendant, and if you complain, you lose your job. We teach in schools where the principal is busy dealing with children who are molesting each other in the bathroom, selling drugs in the cafeteria and stabbing other students with pencils. The fact that some child in your class is talking too much would be laughed out of the building.
Many of you have such lovely intentions with all the good advice, but you really have no clue what some schools are dealing with out there.
P.S. I had a treasure box one year. The kids cleaned it out one afternoon, along with my purse.
Ole Guy
September 1st, 2011
9:03 pm
Good Mom, with all respects, you are talking out of the text book of idealism. Paraphrasing your example: “…you will sit here and do your homework while I sit here with you…” WRONG WRONG WRONG! The entire objective of discipline is to “enable” the kid to behave, appropriately, ON HIS OWN VOLITION. If the kid get’s used to doing the right ONLY when supervised/ONLY when being watched, than what’s the point? The kid learns absolutely nothing. The only time the kid will behave appropriately…be it taking time out of a “busy schedule” to do homework, getting up, in a college dorm, to attend an early morning class after a night of “A beers”, or any number of things expected of a responsible, stand-alone kid/teen/adult…is when a superior is watching.
This harkens back to that which I have always advocated: The ONLY way to train the kid to behave responsibly is through FEAR; fear (a more gentile way of expressing this concept is…ahm…CONCERN) of either receiving unwanted attention or having a desired commodity withheld.
In more terse terms, you either ground the kid or knock some sense into a thick skull. You can argue the tired ole “violence begets violence” song…FEAR, honed through maturity, leads to DISCIPLINE…it’s that damn simple. All this aversion to a pop on the six/a rattling of a few bones only leads to a soft generation, unable/unwilling to self-start; to exercise the initiative necessary to self-sustain. Those (apparently, a good many out there) who feel that kids will, somehow through the “osmosis of hopeful thoughts”, learn to do the right, though not necessarily fun, things are only fooling themselves and doing generations of young adults a great disservice.
Again, Mom…with all due respect, I must ask you…DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT WHICH YOU PUT INTO WORDS? “Discipline must be consistent, predictable, and…humane(?)”. Consistent, by all means…Predictable…no way! Ya gotta keep em’ on their toes, even back on their heels now and again. Let em’ fall on their butts a few times; learn what it means to screw up and suffer an unpredictable consequence, cause’…THAT’S LIFE! As for the humane bit, we’re not talking 30 lashes at the post or a session with the ropes at the Hanoi Hilton. Dammit, Mom, we’re talking about kids who, in a few short years, will gain ever-increasing responsibilities…high school, college, the “man”, etc.
All this “consistent, predictable; humane” stuff does is foster a generation which will ALWAYS be in search of the teat, unable to act on instinct, borne of experience; unable to make informed judgements and decisions; ALWAYS ready to ascribe difficulties to others/never accepting responsibilities for actions.
I realize these “concepts” violate some sort of maternal instinct…ya simply gotta let the kid “fall outa the tree” once in a while; take his/her lumps for making the wrong choices and decisions. The sooner parents begin to realize these “old school concepts”, the sooner we’ll start seeing teens/young adults, and even a few older adults: make good grades in high school and college/actually graduate, and, as adults, maybe they won’t feel compelled to coddle THEIR kids and treat them like little princes and queens (gender-interchangeable). Maybe we’ll start seeing kids who are physically, mentally and morally tough, not necessarily because they want to but because they will know that THEY BETTER DAMN WELL DO SO.
To Ole Guy from Good Mother
September 2nd, 2011
12:31 pm
I completely understand self-reliance. You’re looking (virtually) at someone who sent herself to college and practically raised herself. I was on my own financially and emotionally at barely seventeen years old.
So, I get your point about teaching children self-reliance. You’ve misunderstood my meaning (and I’ll cop to helping you misunderstand
My point is we (teachers and parents) can enforce rules.
I was talking to and about teachers who on this blog virtually throw up their hands and say they have bad students and they can’t be taught. The whining….
To Ole Guy from Good Mother
September 2nd, 2011
12:38 pm
…and I do not beat my kids. That’s what I mean by humane. Consequences and real ones…but beat them? Of course not.
By “predictable” I mean the child must be able to predict that when he or she does wrong, there will be a predictable consequence.
I think our ideas are very close. My children are young so I am still much more involved than I expect to be when they are older.
I run a tight ship but I try not to lay a hand on my children. I also try not to yell at them.
I grew up being beaten and yelled at and I have absolutley no relationship with my so-called parents. So I am learning how to be a good parent by not following the example set by my own.
To I love teaching from GM
September 2nd, 2011
12:48 pm
I grew up in a school very much like the one you described. So lock up your purse for goodness sake and keep the treasure box under lock and key.
If you cannot get to the principal because he or she is having an affair and connected to the crooked administrator, document it, times, dates, places and put it in writing and send it fed ex to the State superintendent.
Ask all other like-minded teachers to do the same. Remember, a log, with dates and times is a powerful thing. Together, you are stronger than one.
Justice is sometimes slow but it is here. Beverly Hall was around for many years but now we finally have her where she needs to be.
Get strength knowing that good teachers do make a difference. They sure did make a difference in mine. We rememer you vividly. We remember what you taught us. We remember that you care.
Keep trying and in your heart, when you’re down, know that the student you get through to today becomes the good citizen and tax payer tomorrow. Keep trying.
rtman
September 3rd, 2011
8:40 am
It doesnt matter anymore to me. This ridiculous teacher bashing has made me and 2 of my co-workers leave the profession for good…. The teacher profession is doomed.
Remember the Children
September 3rd, 2011
10:51 am
@ rtman. We’ve seen on various recent “Get Schooled” blogs some good examples of the sort of knee-jerk “teacher bashing” you’re talking about here. It makes my heart sick, for I know how teachers reading these blogs must feel.