Want to get into UGA or Tech? Start planning in middle school.
The competition to get into Tech and UGA will not subside any time soon. (AJC file)
Parents of current high school students will not be surprised by today’s AJC story on the rising caliber of students admitted to Georgia’s top public campuses. Most parents have a story about a great candidate from their local high school who was rejected by UGA or Tech. And there are many alums of both schools who admit they would never be admitted under today’s tougher standards.
Applications for UGA’s freshman class have increased by more than 50 percent since 2003. Tech’s applications have increased by 48 percent over the last four years.
As the competition for spots at the premier campuses has intensified, students are upping their academic games, enrolling in more AP classes. Parents of high school freshmen and sophomores ought to advise their children to read today’s AJC story so they better understand the risks of waiting until their junior year to get serious about their high school studies.
In fact, according to the story, middle school students ought to read the AJC story as well.
College admission pressures will not subside in Georgia, which will continue to see an increase in high school applicants. According to AJC reporter Laura Diamond, undergraduate enrollment in Georgia grew by 77 percent from 1999 to 2009, compared to 38 percent nationally. She reports that Georgia’s high school graduates are projected to increase by 22 percent over the next decade, compared to 10 percent for the nation.
She says: High-schoolers have to set goals and prepare earlier than ever if they are to have their choice. Some public and private middle school counselors begin talking with students and parents as early as sixth grade about what courses must be taken in high school to be attractive to competitive colleges.
This year’s freshmen at the University of Georgia, Georgia Tech, Georgia State and Georgia College & State universities shattered records for SAT scores and high school GPAs. That continued a steady rise that has altered the state’s higher education landscape, making a slot at Tech or UGA hotly competitive and fueling huge growth and higher standards at other public universities.
Georgia Tech’s freshmen earned an average 1378 on the math and verbal SAT — up almost 50 points from five years ago. They took more than three college-level Advanced Placement or International Baccalaureate courses by the end of junior year in high school and three more during senior year.
“It’s getting a little ridiculous,” said Rick Clark, director of undergraduate admissions at Georgia Tech. “The caliber is going up but the number of students we admit isn’t.”
The rising quality at top colleges has caused a trickle down effect. Enrollment at Georgia Southern and Kennesaw State universities has increased and the student talent has improved. Kennesaw State freshmen earned an average 1,074 on the math and verbal SAT — a gain of 52 points over the last decade.
Joshua Beane graduated from Grayson High in Gwinnett County with strong enough marks to compete for a spot at UGA. Freshmen there scored an average 1,254 on the SAT and had an average GPA of almost 3.8. But Beane didn’t apply.
“I just didn’t want to deal with it when there are a bunch of other colleges,” Beane said. “Smart people are going to those other colleges, too.”
He focused on less expensive campuses and those where he was likely to get in. He’s now a freshman at Kennesaw State.
The state’s HOPE scholarship has caused much of the rise. Prior to this fall, the scholarship paid all tuition at public colleges if students maintained a 3.0 GPA. The rules changed this academic year and now 10 percent of recipients get a full tuition award. The rest get a scholarship that covers most of tuition.
Before HOPE started in 1993, less than one-quarter of students who scored 1,400 or higher on the SAT stayed in state for college, according to the University System of Georgia. After, about three-quarters did.
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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111 comments Add your comment
Anonmom
August 28th, 2011
10:46 am
Parents beware — there is a difference in various high schools in how students ‘qualify’ for AP classes. There is also a difference in how the AP classes are handled. The differences vary tremendously between public and private schools (I have had kids in 3 high schools over the past 3 years — public and private — public in DCSS). At Lakeside, in DCSS, for example, my experience has been that there were 38 kids in the class, the national curriculum was not followed and in order to score a 3 or better (which is what is needed for college credit), the student needed to be “on top of things” and preparing a lot on their own (this is even with an A or a B in the class. In private schools, the class size drops to under 18 (sometimes as low as 5 or 6), the national curriculum is followed, there are weekend review sessions leading up to the exam so the likelihood of a score over a 3 increases. There are also “gatekeepers” at the private schools that don’t seem to exist at the public schools… at some it is based on PSAT scores in 9th and 10th grade; others it is based on grades and recommendations; at some it is based on the student’s interest and in others it may be based on SSAT scores. At Lakeside, once you signed up for the AP class, you are “committed” — you can not get out, even if you are so out of your league you can’t get out — even if you are failing by the 2nd week of the class. In many of the private schools, you can drop to honors level during much of the first semester… What I am saying, is that AP isn’t the same at all schools and it is worth doing some research on this front.
Megan Hayes-Golding
August 28th, 2011
11:57 am
Regarding Anonmom’s comments about how admission into and curriculum of AP courses varies — sure, there are differences in how schools handle AP. Admission into AP is the biggest difference I see.
The College Board (owner of the AP program) strongly encourages teachers admit anyone who wants into the course. Some schools enact “gatekeeping” protocols, including grade and aptitude requirements, which I think is a detriment to the program. Sure, class sizes are smaller and as a teacher, you up your AP pass rate, but who are we excluding in the process?
As for the public/private divide — it’s my belief that small class size is something you’re paying for. I’m not suggesting that 38 in a class is acceptable, just that fewer than 18 might be too expensive to justify at a public school.
Parents & HS Students considering AP should ask the school:
* to see the syllabus (compare to the College Board’s published curriculum),
* ask about the admission requirements (”interested students are welcome” is the right answer),
* data on the school, course, and teacher’s pass rate (cross reference that against admission reqts),
Regarding the article itself: WOW! I am a teacher with a child interested in Tech. Wise AP teachers I’ve spoken to suggest that she not attempt more than 2 AP classes concurrently. Tech’s *average* entering student this year took 3 as a senior. Tough parenting decision — do I prepare her for Tech’s admission standards or follow the advice of successful AP teachers?
Are admission requirements moving beyond what is reasonably achievable by our students?
Duh!
August 28th, 2011
11:59 am
With grade inflation rampant in this state, GPA means NOTHING!!! SAT/ACT scores are the only real objective along with your resume of extracurriculars and admission interview performance.
Now let the howling about “standardized testing does not reflect intelligence…..” or “just because my little Johnny is not a good test taker….” begin: three, two, one…….
Sorry folks, life is fool of tests: bar exam, LCATS,MCATS, medical board exams, etc. Get used to it…sooner you start the better
33 year educator
August 28th, 2011
12:05 pm
Hopefully, parents and school counselors will be talking to middle school students and beginning high school students about the importance of grades on college entrance requirements. The thing I find so interesting is… if these requirements for getting into UGA/Tech are getting so much more difficult, do these students’ abilities match their GPAs and SAT scores once they begin their university classes? We hear so much about high school teachers being forced to change grades, give multiple chances, etc. and now remedial classes being offered in college as well. You have to wonder, are the students raising the bar for college entrance truly superior students?
Duh!
August 28th, 2011
12:09 pm
Would be interesting to know what percentage of kids with high GPA AND high SAT scores keep their HOPE awards as compared to kids with high GPA and low/average SAT scores!!!
I have my hunch….
atlmom
August 28th, 2011
12:09 pm
HOPE seems to have done its job! that’s awesome. Glad to hear it. I hope that all those good students who don’t qualify for HOPE don’t now go out of state to school. The point of HOPE was to keep the best students in GA…because once they left, they were mostly gone forever. (hint: the point wasn’t to pay for lower income students to go to college. there are plenty of other programs that do that).
It’s funny what you say, anonmom. I was in an AP math BC class in 12th grade (many years ago). There were over 20 of us. The teacher DID NOT WANT so many kids in the class, but since we all enrolled, we were allowed to take it (and no, they weren’t going to have two classes). I think the teacher had had fewer than 10 kids in previous years. So we were all told early on that he was going to make it VERY difficult in that class because he wanted some kids to go to the AB class. I don’t think any of us did! We were all quite stubborn.
I had NO idea what was going on in that class, I will tell you that. I cherish the two I got on the AP exam. It meant something got in there. And for several years in college, there were things I had seen before, in that class, so it was incredibly helpful in the end.
atlmom
August 28th, 2011
12:14 pm
re: grade inflation.
Many years ago when they were first talking about how the HOPE might have to be changed because there isn’t enough money, I said to my legislator: hey, why don’t we just rank everyone’s GPA, figure out how many scholarships we have, and give it to the top ‘whatever’ number of students.
I was told this was an awful idea.
However, that is the only one that can work. Otherwise, we have one the one side, revenues, that don’t match the outflows, because they have made everything absolute. Which is a horrible way to run a program, but seems to be the way that all programs are run.
This would take care of grade inflation, a bit, since no one would really know what the cutoff was until everyone was ranked. And no, not all teachers could give 4.0 to all students, I don’t think it would be possible.
Perhaps some part in there about if more than XX% of your students get a 4.0 then none of your students are eligible…
Eliot
August 28th, 2011
12:27 pm
@Duh!
Life is “fool” of tests, is it? Bet you aced them all. And I’ve never heard of “LCATS.” Are they anything like the LSAT?
Atlanta mom
August 28th, 2011
12:29 pm
atlmom,
If the HOPE was not orginally intended to help poor families, why was there a $60,000 cap on family income in order to receive it?
atlmom
August 28th, 2011
12:32 pm
Atlanta mom: i was under the impression that the reason for the HOPE was to keep the best students in GA. Regardless of income. that is what I have always heard said about it.
APS MOM
August 28th, 2011
12:33 pm
Parents need to be more aware of the International Baccalaureate Program offered at selected area high schools. This program engages students in international education (needed in this global economy!) and provides quality high standards through a strong academic curriculum. My son attended North Atlanta High School and excelled. He was granted early acceptance to UNC-Chapel Hill when he also applied the principles and strategies gained from the IB Program and graduated with high honors! Of course he did not receive the HOPE Scholarship. We as parents planned and funded this ourselves!!
soccermom
August 28th, 2011
12:45 pm
GPA will never work as a ranking system. An “A” at most Atlanta private schools is significantly different from an “A” at other schools. If your child doesn’t do well on standardized tests, you should know it by the 3rd grade. You then have the time to prepare your child for college entrance exams.
catlady
August 28th, 2011
12:59 pm
33 year educator: check the “drop” rate for classes since HOPE was instituted. It has gone through the roof. Check the 60%+ who lose HOPE. These should give you an idea. However, Gary Henry at Ga State did some crosstabs research for the state a while back. Bet you can get an idea from there.
Ernest
August 28th, 2011
1:15 pm
I believe HOPE has exceeded expectations, especially when it was opened to all students regardless of family income. atlmom, you might want to searc Hope Scholarship History for background on this. One link to review is:
http://www.gsfc.org/gsfcnew/SandG_facts.CFM
catlady, you bring up analysis that would be interesting to get more insight on. I also wonder of those that lost HOPE, how many stayed in school and still graduated? To me, that demonstrates another type of persistence that is worth considering, especially if you look at the ‘perceived’ quality of education at each college. How would you compare a student that lost HOPE at Tech yet still graduated to one that retained HOPE all four years at GA. Southern? Did both have the same job oppportunites after they graduated? I believe this is also a measurable that is worthy of consideration.
Jerry
August 28th, 2011
1:18 pm
What about LEARNING??? Grades are subjective and to say otherwise is an expression of ignorance. Educators teaching the same course in the same school will have a difficult time defining “What is an A”. Public High School should not be a collegiate factory but rather a place where ALL student are given the opportunity to Quality in Equity. Grades should not be used to select, sort or compensate. They should not be used for entrance criteria either. They are to be used as form of communication with parents and student regarding the progress of the student toward mastery of the specific content. There was an earlier post regarding a student failing in the second week of school. This should never happen. If we as educators work at readiness level of the student and continue to instill high expectations, they should not be failing. It is about LEARNING FOR ALL! Let us not loose our focus because of extrinsic influences that are motivated by $$$$$. The price of college continues to rise faster than inflation and financial aid. This is broken and caters to a specific demographic. In a democracy, public educational institutions should not select and sort based on those who can afford vs those who can not afford but that is what is happening. SAT scores have increased because of the # of SAT prep courses being offered. Who can afford these courses? Once again segregated based on social class. This also defeats the entire purpose of the SAT, but you will not get ETS to admit this because they too are lining their pockets.
atlmom
August 28th, 2011
1:22 pm
one of the ideas for HOPE was that the student pays for the semester and then at the end, when/if grades are up to snuff for keeping HOPE, that they then get reimbursed for the semester.
It seems like a good idea, but I’m not sure in implementation it would be wonderful. would it cost more to administer? would that administration cost be absorbed by not paying as much in scholarships? …because we all know that some students lose their HOPE at some point. Would some students – knowing that they would actually have to pay for the semester themselves, be more motivated to get the grades they need – since they know it’s not ‘hey, I get a free ride for a semester’?
Thanks ernest, i will look at that.
oldtimer
August 28th, 2011
1:27 pm
“Are admission requirements moving beyond what is reasonably achievable by our students?”
I have a sister- in-law that is currently homeschooling. It is amazing what our children are capable of learning if we would just expect it. As a retired teacher, I know young people can do a lot more. Maybe increasing the college standards eventually will increase lower level standards.
Hannah
August 28th, 2011
1:30 pm
I graduated from Georgia State and started at GCSU. Unless you go to UGA or Tech, college doesn’t matter. And AP classes were a waste of time.
USG Prof
August 28th, 2011
1:31 pm
@ 33 year educator, 12:05 pm. “We hear so much about high school teachers being forced to change grades, give multiple chances, etc. and now remedial classes being offered in college as well. You have to wonder, are the students raising the bar for college entrance truly superior students?”
A plausible reading of the situation, but poor HS students aren’t causing this raising of the bar. USG research institutions have been seeking to raise their entrance standards for at least a decade….now they can do it because there is such a flood of student applicants, due in large part to the bad economy and job market. It’s not the inferior level of students applying or HS grade inflation. Schools are doing it because they CAN, and still have plenty of students filling their classrooms. (And it sure makes teaching the classes more rewarding.)
TheWad
August 28th, 2011
1:32 pm
As a teacher who considered teaches IB history I must warn those who cherish the exceptionalism of the US to be careful. The US History course taught under that program is a Euro/World veiw of US history and thus reduces America down to the level of importance of most every other nation in the world. This will tend to have the student miss the factual greatness of this country in world history as well as water down the students understanding as to why they should look at America as worthy of sacrfice in their own lives.
atlmom
August 28th, 2011
1:33 pm
jerry: um, it is about learning,b ut how else do you award scholarships?
Hmmm?
The reality is that college *should* be about learning, but over the last 20 or 30 years, things have chnaged dramatically. There are pretty much the same number of slots for colleges (see, article above) so why wouldn’t tuitions increase? not everyone *is* college material, and not everyone *should* go to college. this has been distorted in the last 20+ years. it is a terrible place for our society to be, but here we are.
I’m really getting tired of everyone always saying: oh, but this isn’t *fair* and ‘oh, look who can afford it’ and ‘oh, no! it’s those rich kids who can afford the prep classes.’ So what? wow, what’s the big deal. Who cares??? Are you trying to take care of those who don’t have as much? that’s where one’s focus should be. Not taking away from those who have. Those who have will always have, there shouldn’t be a problem with it. (really what’s the alternative? telling people that no matter how hard they work, they can’t pass it on to their kids? they can’t give it to their family? watch as we become SO much less prosperous…oh, wait…we’ve tried it already and look where we are).
The reality is…what is the purpose of HOPE? I always thought it was to keep the best students IN GEORGIA. if so…then we have seen that it is working – beyond expectations. And, with the law of unintended consequences (but it should have been seen!) – the state schools are becoming incredible institutions because they are getting a wonderfully high caliber of students…because of the HOPE!!! because students are staying in GA. A great thing for all. It’s wonderful isn’t it?
Yes, Jerry, our schools have most definitely lost focus. to tell kids that the only way for them to succeed is with a college education is folly (and they are learning it now with the economy the way it is. it *matters* WHICH degree you get, too).
atlmom
August 28th, 2011
1:37 pm
the wad: considering my child seems to have american history EVERY YEAR, I don’t see this as a large issue. It’s ONE class, one perspective. they can ALSO take american history, can’t they?
Hannah: really? Um, I would say look at a lot of job postings. even if a degree may not be necessary to DO a job, most of them say: four year degree needed. so I’d think twice if I were you.
And if one can go into college with a semester’s worth of credits because of AP courses, then one may be able to graduate a semester earlier…that’s a HUGE savings.
atlmom
August 28th, 2011
1:45 pm
soccermom: you are doing the SAME THING now. They are looking at GPA for the HOPE now…what’s the difference? now it’s absolute, and we see how well that has worked out.
So you need what (I don’t know just throwing this out there) a 3.8 for the full ride, right? it’s different in all schools now, right? so how is that different the way I said it then?
DeKalbParent
August 28th, 2011
1:49 pm
Whoever said that test scores matter more than GPA does not understand entrance requirements for UGA and Tech. If you look carefully, once a certain level of test score is reached, GPA counts more than any increment in the test score.
Also, the gate keepers on AP courses are hurting students by not letting them take more courses since they are competing for entrance with students who had no gatekeepers and even Tech and UGA don’t care how you score on the AP exam – just how many courses you took.
Several years ago, a kid needed to make a choice in sixth grade if s/he wanted to take calculus in high school. I don’t know where it is with the crazy new math curriculum – all I know is that kids who move into GA from a state that has been following the standard math curriculum are hosed.
Hannah
August 28th, 2011
1:51 pm
Atlmom-No one’s hiring, so it doesn’t seem to matter, now does it? I graduated a year early thanks to joint enrollment as well, but again, that just put me into the real world a year earlier. Yaaaaaay.
Hannah
August 28th, 2011
1:56 pm
And also I got a full ride thanks to the HOPE so technically I didn’t save any money. Although I did save about $40,000, so that’s pretty great.
catlady
August 28th, 2011
1:59 pm
ernest: You are completely right, as usual.
I admire kids who have the gumption to stick with it after they hit the rude awakening of losing HOPE. I am sure the data is out there, but our legislature required very little evaluation of the HOPE program, and in the past there has been a strict guarding of the data so that private (unbiased) researchers could not parse out some really meaningful info based on more sophisticated statistical programs. Not sure if that has changed.
justjanny
August 28th, 2011
1:59 pm
SAT,ACT, AP, etc., etc…have sold us a bill of goods and guess, we bought it! Do colleges and universities around the world have prospective students purchase these testing goods?
College Prof
August 28th, 2011
2:18 pm
First of all, to address DUH, many college admissions have found that students’ GPAs are more important at predicting college success than their SAT scores in the long run. They are saying that it comes from their work ethic. A student who scores high on the SAT, but has a lower GPA obviously has the ability to do better, but just doesn’t care enough to do his/her best. Colleges don’t want those students as much. UGA, as well as some other Georgia schools, will tell you that in their admissions visits. To answer your question about higher GPAs vs. SATs maintaining the HOPE, my daughter is a junior at UGA and has still maintained her HOPE Scholarship for all three years and she scored what you would probably consider a low SAT. She did have a high GPA.
As for Atlanta Mom, there is not a $60,000 cap on who receives the HOPE. If there is, they will come looking for us to pay it back very soon. It is completely merit based at this time and not based on income. You are not required to fill out any form which states your income. Many people THINK you have to fill out the FAFSA form to get HOPE, but you do not. FAFSA requires income information and is a federal aid form. If you only are applying for HOPE, you just have to fill out the Georgia HOPE form and if you meet the merit requirements you quailify.
bootney farnsworth
August 28th, 2011
2:23 pm
not at all bothered by this.
Tech & UGA are the flagships of the USG, and entry into them
should be a prize worth working for.
life is competitive, and its good for kids to learn – even
in middle school – that they’ve got to work hard for the
things they want
and that life is not always fair.
bootney farnsworth
August 28th, 2011
2:25 pm
GPC, GGC, Ga. State, West Georgia, Atl. Metro, Clayton and others are glad to have students who didn’t qualify for UGA/Tech.
and they are cheaper, too
Beck
August 28th, 2011
2:31 pm
Please keep in mind that The College Board is a FOR-PROFIT business, not an educational institution.
Of course, they encourage that every student be able to take an AP class that’s more money in their pockets for the actual test, study materials, etc.!!! Schools have a vested interest in keeping the unqualified OUT because schools and teachers are often ranked on the basis of how many students pass.
Also, colleges and universities don’t have to accept any AP scores (including 5s). When there is a tough economy (y’know like now?!?) and schools need money they can just choose not to accept AP scores and students and/or parents will have to pay full tuition.
bootney farnsworth
August 28th, 2011
2:32 pm
‘course, all this goes out the window if
you can play football.
then you can have an SAT in negative numbers
and both places will open the doors wide for you
bootney farnsworth
August 28th, 2011
2:34 pm
@ Beck
truth.
in this economy, UGA & Tech are in the drivers seat.
students & parents need to start making better market
choices based on price and education – and less on marketing
and football
bootney farnsworth
August 28th, 2011
2:36 pm
there are also several good technical colleges which can give a student a good start in their higher education
bootney farnsworth
August 28th, 2011
2:39 pm
and for the really motivated student, On Line education is available to nearly everyone by nearly everyone
Ole Guy
August 28th, 2011
2:41 pm
While these are most note-worthy considerations: early counseling, taking the right courses in order to gain “competitive attractiveness” to the right colleges, etc, I am awaiting AJC’s (ie Maureen’s) report on rates of graduation. Does counseling, during the middle school years, and taking the “right” courses in high school, necessarily translate into success (in terms of simply gaining admission to your favorite institution)? If…as I have understood from previous GET SCHOOLED articles…rates of graduation are at a low, than perhaps early counseling and taking the right courses, in themselves, are not the answer to REAL success…gaining that college diploma.
Perhaps the real issues should be explored: Grade inflation, AP enrollment for students who are not, academically, AP material, and more importantly, A COMPLETE REMOVAL OF PARENTAL INFLUENCE/MEDDLING IN THE TEACHER EVALUATION PROCESS. The kids’ teacher(s) are (or SHOULD be) the ONLY source of this determination. What with (supposedly) A/B students, on HOPE, having to take remedials during their first years of the collegiate pressure cooker, it would seem that all this concern toward getting into college should be directed, instead, toward the end game; what it takes to win that pot of gold and get OUT of college. That, young ones, is when the REAL challenges start…Godspeed!
hello.life
August 28th, 2011
2:50 pm
@Megan Hayes-Golding
The amount of AP courses depends on the student and school. If a lot of AP courses are provided at the school it looks better to take more. However, more should only be taken if the student is able to handle it. Better to have an A in a regular class than a C or failing in AP. If you believe your child is able to do well and if he/she is okay with it I encourage more AP courses. I am a current high school senior and I am taking 4 AP classes currently and hopefully by the end of high school I will have successfully completed 8 AP courses.
cewbee
August 28th, 2011
3:03 pm
My son is now a senior @ Tech – we started planning BEFORE middle school (i.e. what courses he would take in 6th grade to be on the right path). He had good grades and good test scores in HS – took 7 AP courses and they translated into 21 semester hours’ credit. That is nice but what was more important is that those courses prepared him for the more rigorous academics – and he has been able to keep HOPE.
The planning was key – (that was back in Spring of 2001) – his friends who did not plan ahead or did not apply themselves did not gain entrance to the school of their choice.
There is a moral here.
IndyGT
August 28th, 2011
3:05 pm
Sounds like HOPE is serving its intended purpose – keep the best, brightest GA students in GA. A natural by-product of this is that getting into the top-tier GA schools is going to be that much harder. It is not totally fair, but everyone knows the rules of the game going in. I don’t think its fair that at GT, in order to maintain HOPE, you have to average out making Dean’s List. When I was at GT, Dean’s List was 3.0. One of the reasons why a whole lot of GT kids lose HOPE early on. Other kids at other schools don’t have similar standards. But, again.. everyone knows that going in.
Anonmom
August 28th, 2011
3:08 pm
I’ve actually spoken out about the need to “cull” the AP offerings at Lakeside. hello.life is right — the colleges look at the numbers of APs taken versus the numbers offered — they want to see that the kid has challenged themselves and have done well with the challenging scheule. Thus the kid is penalized in an environment with 28 AP offerings — when kids can take 8-10 APs a year (full disclosure my younger 2 sons will probably be in a classification whereby they will take 8 or 9 AP classes and do well with them). If you are in a school with 28 offereings and half of them are “mediocre” (not taught based on national curriculum or with a disconnect between grades and pass rates on the AP exam) then the students may be better off with fewer offerings so that they are not “dinged” for failing to take the bad AP classes. Also, schools can “game” the “gifted” offerings by offering an AP class for the “gifted” kid — if the class is “gifted” then the class limite is 25 but as an AP class — enrollment can go up to 38 — kid is burnt with 38 and better off with 25.
Anonmom
August 28th, 2011
3:09 pm
I didn’t mean 8-10 per year, I meant total. At some high schools, Lakeside included, kids can take as many as 6 AP classes a year if they are highly motivated…. (valedictorian status is won by maxing out on AP classes and getting As in them because of weighting).
AJinCobb
August 28th, 2011
3:12 pm
@Megan H-G
As also stated by hello.life just above, the right number of AP courses depends on the school and student. My child took two APs as a sophomore and five as a junior and scored 4s and 5s on all the AP exams. Taking five AP courses would likely be too much for many students, but works for some.
If the AP teachers know your child and advised that more than two AP courses at once would be too much for her, then that’s probably useful advice. However, if they were suggesting that two should be the limit for all students, I’d have to disagree.
teacher&mom
August 28th, 2011
3:14 pm
@bootney: More than one admissions office has told me the following: If you have a successful freshman year at almost any college (including college courses at a technical school), the high school transcript no longer matters. SAT scores and high school GPA’s become irrelevant.
teacher&mom
August 28th, 2011
3:16 pm
In my home we’ve learned a valuable lesson about admittance to the expensive flagship and upper tier universities…..wait until AFTER your freshmen/sophomore year to transfer.
Save money by starting at a smaller school that offers smaller classes and more support for freshmen classes. There are technical colleges in GA that articulate with larger the universities….including GA Tech.
If a college degree with little to no debt is your goal, this is a great alternative.
Megan Hayes-Golding
August 28th, 2011
3:32 pm
@hello.life
Great advice from the trenches! Thank you for your thoughtful response.
You mention an important fact that shouldn’t be lost on parents: “If a lot of AP courses are provided at the school it looks better to take more.”
Dekalb taxpayer
August 28th, 2011
3:32 pm
A poster (don’t remember who it was) implied that well-to-do kids have an advantage because they can afford SAT prep courses. All three of my decidedly middle-class children did extremely well on their SATS and not one of them took a prep course. They were surrounded by books and reading from an early age. So you might make the case that they had the advantage of educated parents, but not that they succeeded due to their parents’ ability to pay for academic “extras.”
bootney farnsworth
August 28th, 2011
3:33 pm
@ A&M
I’ve heard that too, but don’t put that much faith in it.
after one year you (the student) is still in a very competitive
and nasty pool of 4 year wannabes.
completing two years at a two year school makes a person a near lock
to get into the 4 year of their reasonable choice.
plus, it saves the parent a load of cash to boot
bootney farnsworth
August 28th, 2011
3:36 pm
I’m hihgly unimpressed with AP offerings in High Schools.
its just another form of grade inflation.
school X or district Y want to be able to toot their own horn
relating to how many kids are in AP classes – regardless of
suitablilty of the kids to be in them.
its all educational ponzi
Megan Hayes-Golding
August 28th, 2011
3:37 pm
@AJinCobb The “take 2 AP” advice was a general suggestion. Again, this is excellent advice. Thanks!
@teacher&mom I regularly advise the HS students I teach (@Clarkston in DeKalb) to transfer after the freshman or sophomore year to avoid the shock of the pressure cookers that are UGA and Tech.
bootney farnsworth
August 28th, 2011
3:39 pm
@ DeKalb Tax.
the main advantage higher income families/districts have is they exist in an enviroment where the expectation is junior will go to college.
the neighborhoods and support systems respond to that.
sadly, all too often in the lower income ranges, the question moves from where will junior go to will junior be able to go at all.
Ernest
August 28th, 2011
3:40 pm
Thanks for sharing that valuable insight, teacher&mom! Given the recent changes to the transfer rules, it can be easier to get into one of the flagship universities after establishing yourself in college. This requires the student and parents being honest with themselves. Coming out of college with little or no debt should be a goal for all families, especially when you consider the current job market.
Ole Guy
August 28th, 2011
3:42 pm
All these AP offerings…! I was lucky to pass lunch!
You’re absolutely right, Teacher Mom. Your suggested path of attending smaller schools and (possibly) transferring to a “big name” school should not be an alternative…it should be the primary pipeline to that diploma. First year courses are somewhat generic…even basic engineering ie statics, dynamics, strength of materials…and could just as easily (and more cost-effectively) be satisfied at Home Town U.
While, in the competitive world, that piece of parchment from Big Name U might overshadow the diploma from a lesser-known institution, in the end…one’s professional life…I would imagine all considerations come out even in terms of a fullfilling career, lifetime earnings, etc.
bootney farnsworth
August 28th, 2011
3:42 pm
what doesn’t get stated in so many words is:
kids need to be making better choices in where they go to college, and why.
bootney farnsworth
August 28th, 2011
3:44 pm
myself, I’d make it so HOPE is only available to students who are attending two year schools for freshmen/sophomore work.
if they keep the grades, they can take HOPE off to 4 year college.
if junior wants to go to UGA right out of the gate, they can do it with their own money
Stewie
August 28th, 2011
4:16 pm
“All three of my decidedly middle-class children did extremely well on their SATS and not one of them took a prep course.”
And they almost assuredly would’ve done even better with prep courses. Ceteris paribus, if two students start with the same practice SAT score and one thereafter takes an expensive prep course, he’s probably going to score higher on the official SAT. Is he more qualified for college work than the other student, or just more fortunate?
DCSS graduate
August 28th, 2011
4:45 pm
Hi Megan: On the question of whether your daughter should take more than 2 AP classes, I think those teachers may be giving you bad advice. Let her take at least 3 her junior and senior years.
I took 9 AP courses at Chamblee High School, and though I worked extremely hard, I scored no lower than a 4 on any exam. Many of my classmates, who took a similar number of AP courses, went on to Tech and selective schools across the country. The students who did not take more than 2 a year did not get into those schools.
Nearly all of the classes at Tech are tough; it’s the equivalent of taking 4 APs at a time. There is very little grade inflation and students need to work hard to do well. It can be pretty shocking for students who don’t have strong backgrounds. Encouraging her to take the hard classes now will prepare her for what is to come. Two APs a year is not enough.
Calm Down
August 28th, 2011
5:06 pm
Why all the fuss? Just send your kids to APS and you won’t have to worry about them being qualified. They’ll be off the charts!
Yes, even the poverty stricken youngsters will perform as well as Stewie’s (above comment) middle class kids. We just need more leaders like Beverly Hall and our problems will be solved.
CurrentDawg
August 28th, 2011
5:22 pm
This article is the best argument for continuing to fully fund the HOPE scholarship (also, it’s a strong argument against implementing income caps for HOPE). The HOPE scholarship has given Georgia students a major incentive to stay in-state for college; without out, there’s no doubt in my mind that many bright Georgia students would flock north to the (costly) privates.
-Current (second-year) Dawg who chose UGA over Vandy, Duke, and UVA.
WaltonMom
August 28th, 2011
5:28 pm
My child went to a public high school, Walton High School in Marietta, and he had small class size in most his AP classes. He took 11 AP classes in all by the time he graduated and scored all 4’s and 5’s on his AP test, which is not that unusual at Walton where many high achieving students attend. I have heard about grade inflation from parents at Fulton and Dekalb schools, but you just don’t see it at Walton. I also have a friend who is a high school teacher in Fulton and she says they automatically must let the kids retake tests if they do poorly. That is absolutely unheard of at Walton, there is no test retaking at all and you get the grade you get. So, I don’t think it is public vs. private as much as it is which public high school.
MisterRog
August 28th, 2011
5:43 pm
http://www.storiesfromschool.org/2010/08/welders-wanted.html
Inman Park Boy
August 28th, 2011
5:57 pm
You know what? You get just as good an education (if not better) at West Georgia, Georgia Southern, Georgia Gwinnett, etc, etc. The main difference is size and ego.
catlady
August 28th, 2011
5:59 pm
Anyone here ever heard of social and cultural capital? My kids had it; many of their classmates did not. I had it (2 parents college-graduated in the 1940s, including dad BSEE from Duke in 3 years).
Many times we blame the less-affluent kids for not taking the right courses, etc. Actually, they don’t have the social and cultural capital their more wealthy peers accrued through their parents and the activities their parents exposed them to from the cradle on.
Les
August 28th, 2011
6:41 pm
There are other ways of getting into the state flagship universities. My daughter graduated from UGA a year ago. But two of her high school classmates who applied to UGA in high school but not accepted just graduated from UGA this year. One girl went to West Georgia and transfered to UGA after her sophmore year with a 3.0 GPA… and the second girl went to Georgia Perimeter College under a guarantee transfer program to UGA, and transfered to UGA with a 2.8 GPA. Now they are all UGA graduates.
So you don’t get accepted to UGA. There are other ways of getting there, even without a stratospheric SAT or perfect GPA.
Why Limit Your Options (WLYO)
August 28th, 2011
6:46 pm
Students should not restrict their options. It is possible
that they will find an equivalent ranked school for about
the same cost through the Southern Regional Education
Board. View the link below for details. Many states have
the equivalent of the Southern Regional Education Board.
http://www.sreb.org/page/1304/academic_common_market.html
Rik Roberts
August 28th, 2011
7:15 pm
My two oldest both went to college early, the latest under the Move on When Ready program. Why take AP classes when you can get two years of college classes paid for by the state while still in High School? In addition, after graduating high school you still have four years of HOPE eligibility. I’m encouraging my kids to stretch it out and get dual degrees since it’s free.
atlmom
August 28th, 2011
7:36 pm
@hannah: even in this market, with the right degree, one would be valuable. I can see it right now where the only people in the US qualified for certain jobs are not from the US. I have a distinct advantage, being a US citizen.
So what if someone is ‘fortunate’ that they get to take a prep class? Jeez.
If you say: oh, I’m not going to give a scholarship to those who can get into UGA right out of high school…what is the purpose of the HOPE? is it to keep people in GA? Is it to only give it to those who are ‘late starters’? what is the goal?
Anonmom
August 28th, 2011
7:37 pm
There’s no grade inflation at Lakeside; no opportunities to retake tests and no late assignments — they are sometimes due before the bell rings and if you turn it in after the bell — it, too, was a zero — even if you were standing there, holding it. So, Lakeside isn’t a place for those who can’t handle tough rules and consequences.
Ole Guy
August 28th, 2011
7:41 pm
Good point, Cat! Fortunately…or unfortunately…the capital you speak of remains the domain of the more-affluent. FORTUNATELY because the “please and thank-yous”, and all those “social graces” which many learned through the “random osmosis” of growing up in the “right” environment certainly carry forward into our personal and professional lives. UNFORTUNATELY because the very last thing we, as a progressive society, need is class segregation.
My credentials include both “hands-on” skills certification as well as professional affiliations. Those with whome I toil/with whome I HAVE toiled obviously come from a variety of socio-economic and educational backgrounds. While we all may not have the same socio-cultural capital to which you refer, it is extremely important that we recognize these differences. All too often, these differences have served as a wedge/a divider in our quest for progress, as well as a “wall” on the path toward achieving educational goals. This wall, however, need not be impregnable…unless we want and allow them to be.
George
August 28th, 2011
8:31 pm
I pity today’s devoted high school teachers who are practically forced into grade inflation by students/parents for the sake of getting HOPE. There are also a multitude of college instructors who likewise feel the pressure from the (often undeserving) student to retain it.
One more thing. There are more than a few, who because of who they know, are practically instantly enrolled in our best universities. That’s a fact.
Public School Student
August 28th, 2011
8:35 pm
I spent grades 6-12 in Fulton County Schools and graduated from a Fulton County public high school in 2005. My 10th grade year I took one AP class (World History), 11th grade year I took four (Chemistry, Statistics, US History, and English Comp), and in 12th grade I took five (Calculus AB, International Politics, U.S. Politics, MicroEconomics, and English Lit). I scored mostly 5s, with one 4 and one 3 among the assortment.
I don’t say this to pat myself on the back, as I would only consider myself an above average student. Other students took even more AP courses through online classes and directed study. Other students scored straight fives. My experience was not an anomaly, and yes, I still participated in extra-curriculars and worked a part-time job.
I went on to UGA (because of the HOPE scholarship) and had little trouble with the “pressure cooker” environment, because most of my first year coursework was not as challenging as my AP classes had been.
All this to say, three or more AP classes with good scores on those exams is reasonable. AP coursework is the best preparation for college. So what if the teacher is bad and doesn’t follow suggested national curriculum? Well, newsflash, but their are bad college professors who won’t teach you what is going to be on the final exam. The earlier a student can learn to take charge of their own learning, the better, and AP courses force students to do so.
These more strenuous benchmarks for admission are good for Georgia’s universities and more importantly, good for Georgia’s students.
hello.life
August 28th, 2011
9:05 pm
The ability to retake tests is called Recovery and is in theory only offered to those who are truly trying their best but are doing poorly. You are only able to have Recovery if you have a grade average lower than a 72 (I think) and you have completed ALL of your assignments. If all work is completed you are able to retake the test. I don’t think the student can earn a full one hundred percent though. I just wanted to clear this up because I’m getting the impression that people are thinking that you can just fail tests and get a second chance.
Georgia Parent
August 28th, 2011
10:57 pm
A friend of mine is a high school History teacher. When he got his first class assignment last year, he was delighted. He said “I have all the gifted kids.” I was led to believe that the kids who had been tracked as “gifted” from elementary school were the ones on track toward AP and Honors classes. But my kids aren’t there yet in terms of age, and they’re not considered “gifted.” Of course, your post about the restrictions at UGA and GA Tech causes some anxiety. Am I incorrect in my understanding about the way students are tracked toward the college-prep courses in high school? If you have non-gifted kids heading toward middle school, should you just lower your expectations and start talking about how nice Statesboro must be in the spring?
hardworkingteacher
August 28th, 2011
11:26 pm
Unfortunately, many qualified white middle class male applicants DID NOT and DO NOT get into UGA and tech because of reverse discrimination. I know several former students, one being a Presidential Scholar, SAT score 1761, AP credits, GPA 4.0 and accepted to several other large state universities , but was not admitted to UGA. All the female and minority students with much lower scores and GPA scores were admitted. It is a shame that Georgia is losing some of the cream of the crop students in favor of a politically correct agenda in place at UGA!
Is Chik-fil-A Morris Brown's Saviour? - City-Data Forum
August 28th, 2011
11:51 pm
[...] I like the Chick-Fil-A idea a lot. Chick-fil-A eyes Morris Brown for Truett Cathy legacy center – Atlanta Business Chronicle Then, this could lead to the possibility of MB going on the path to becoming Morris Brown Christian University. A good addition to the AUC. Morris Brown Chrisitian College could also work. The other option is for Morris Brown (and Clark!) to become public universities: Morris Brown State University* Clark State University* *These articles reveal how the addition of more public universities would be very beneficial to Georgia and Georgia students (as well as the AUC and Atlanta): Universities raise bar Want to get into UGA or Tech? Start planning in middle school. | Get Schooled [...]
Dr. Craig Spinks/ Augusta
August 29th, 2011
3:09 am
Inman Park Boy,
A student at a “second-tier” school will probably have professors who are more effective instructors than will the majority of students at UGA, at Tech, and at the two GSUs. The latter grouping will face many graduate assistants as distracted instructors in classes for their basic coursework. The former will face more experienced, more instruction-focused faculty in their core classes.
Jerry
August 29th, 2011
4:33 am
@Altmom…..if you read my post, I never use the word “fair” I do use the word equal and make no mistake, they are not synonymous. @Stewie I was implying those students who are raised surrounded by resources have a distinct advantage. I believe your comment supports of that perspective. I simply do not believe grades (so inconsistent) or SAT scores are an accurate reflection of ability.
Time4change
August 29th, 2011
5:23 am
IB is based on two year courses and application of knowledge. It is better university preparation than AP courses. Isn’t the preparation for success what we want more
than scores and grades?
Peter Smagorinsky
August 29th, 2011
6:10 am
It’s interesting to see that even a story about rising levels of achievement according to multiple measurements still brings out the haters. Dismantle the schools, it’s all a sham, etc., no matter what the news is.
bootney farnsworth
August 29th, 2011
9:03 am
@ hardworking
true, but right now it is what it is. UGA & the BOR are pursuing a
social policy 30 years out of date. but its not like its kept
secret.
this goes back to the social capital thing catlady mentioned earlier.
give them (the BOR) a more rounded transcript and make it harder for them to turn you away.
AP classes are nice -I suppose- but schools want to see an applicant did
more than just go to class and chase girls.
funny
August 29th, 2011
9:17 am
only thing the colleges are doing is bending the curve so they can get rid of all these remedial students
Hmmmmmmmm
August 29th, 2011
10:45 am
My only hope is if my kid can play football….. UGA and GT will both find a way to admit….
Hmmmmmmmm
August 29th, 2011
10:49 am
Or Basketball….
Old Dominion
August 29th, 2011
11:13 am
I moved my family from Georgia to Northern Virginia in time for my daughter to enter 6th grade with a traditional math curriculum in the public schools. About 15% of the kids in my daughter’s 8th grade class will have finished algebra and geometry by the end of this year, on track to complete AP Calculus BC by end of junior year of high school. More than 50% of the kids in her class will complete algebra by the end of the 8th grade, which puts them on track to complete AP Calculus AB by end of senior year of high school. Still, a very small number will be admitted to the top Virginia public schools – UVa and VaTech – because both have quotas on freshmen that can be admitted from any given high school. UVa accepts 30% of their 18,000 students from out of state, in order to boost the revenues. Expect big changes in Georgia higher education as the budgets continue to squeeze out Georgia students who are highly qualified. They will lose spots not just to other Georgia students but also to out-of-state and international students.
Really amazed
August 29th, 2011
11:33 am
@hardworking teacher, so true!!! My son is just a junior, but was told by his high school college coun. that this could be a problem for him, even thought 4 aps already, good grades, decent psat scores so far, many extra curr, part time job since 14, mission trip to Mexico etc. but at least he was honest!!! I don’t know why people don’t want to believe this.
www.honeyfern.org
August 29th, 2011
11:43 am
All high school students at HoneyFern take a minimum of four AP classes, and they are generally in a one-to-one student-teacher ratio. That should help with learning the material instead of simply memorizing and regurgitating.
Just wrote about the importance of a college degree; that will be published tomorrow at http://honeyfern.ning.com.
Maureen Downey
August 29th, 2011
11:57 am
@Really, I am surprised at the comments that boys face a harder time gaining admission because there has been a lot of discussion in higher ed circles about how many more qualified female applicants they get, but campuses have to balance genders. (If there are too many women, male and female candidates are discouraged.)
Even with that, many campuses are 60 female and 40 male. Even private colleges struggle to retain 55 percent female and 45 percent male.
In fact, here is a piece I just read:
And here is a Washington Post story on this issue:
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/college-inc/2010/01/college_gender_gap_stabilizing.html
.
Hundreds of options
August 29th, 2011
12:03 pm
As more students from other cultures increase in metro Atlanta the top state school in GA can select the “cream of the crop” and they should. However, any school from the Ivy League to technical schools are going to have freshmen on academic probation at the end of their first year.
There are many other colleges in GA that may actually serve students better, however parents and students like to say they got into UGA or Tech. What I would like an explaination of is with larger freshmen classes and increased overall enrollment, why is tuition continuing to rise so high?
Really amazed
August 29th, 2011
12:10 pm
@Maureen, all I know is we were told this could be a problem if waiting exceptance to GT. They are a heavier male dom. school that is looking for a more diversified student body. Diversity and female applicants weight more than caus. males. They would like to see more females apply for engineering degrees. I also have a daughter, it will be interesting to see what happens when she is a senior in high school.
Nat Turner
August 29th, 2011
12:14 pm
Thank you, Maureen. What really and hardworking were saying is crap. There are 450 blacks and 350 latinos entering UGA this year. That is out of 30,000 students. And you better believe that they didn’t just accept any minority just because they were a minority because of people like really and hardworking. It is a shame that these students are being targeted when they worked just as hard to get into school.
Maureen Downey
August 29th, 2011
12:21 pm
@Really, Tech has historically had more males, but that is shifting. There are oddities in admissions that defy logic. I know one male Atlanta student who was accepted into Tech, but not UGA. (His parents told me that he ended up enjoying Tech.)
Maureen
Warrior Woman
August 29th, 2011
12:26 pm
@Megan Hayes-Golding – “Interested students are welcome” is most assuredly NOT the right answer to any question about admission to AP or IB classes. When admissions are open, the class quality is reduced and syllabus coverage declines to allow the less-capable students to keep up. This hurts the students that should be in the advanced classes.
Really amazed
August 29th, 2011
12:29 pm
@Nat, If you have read any of my other blogs, you too would realize that I am for ANY student of ANY color going to college. I feel that they should ALL be playing the same field EQUALLY!!!!!! I am just stating what my son’s college cons. has stated and HAS happened. If you don’t think it ever does, then you too are drinking the gov’t kool-aid. William and Mary and Wesleyan have been more female oriented school for years. Look at Agnes-Scott! I am talking about GT and UGA!!! By the way, I could qualify as just about any race. So you can’t call the race card on me!!!
That Kid's Mom
August 29th, 2011
12:40 pm
Need some advice here: My son (who is relatively bright!) is in 8th grade in Dekalb County. (Sucks to be him, I know.) Where do I start on getting ahead of the planning game for college? He’s in his 3 year of playing alto sax, plays football, has done well in every grade thus far (with the exception of 7th grade when he discovered girls)… but it seems the MIDDLE schools in So. Dekalb County aren’t prepared to even broach the subject of higher education with these kids. Why wait until their 10th grade year to start discussing college options?? I never understood that. The school counselors only seem to be there for discipline issues. I’ve had extensive conversations with my son and he wants to study law/law enforcement, eventually joining the GBI/FBI. He’s wanted to be a cop since he was 6.
Steven
August 29th, 2011
12:53 pm
I live in Dekalb County where Stephenson is the “home” high school. I know many, many smart, qualified Black students who applied to UGA and were not accepted. My son applied to UGA and was not accepted (took three AP classes, Joint Enrollment at GPC, 3.8 GPA, and 1310 on Math/English SAT). When I spoke to someone at the Admissions Office, I learned that less than 50 African American males (non-scholarship athletes) were accepted into the UGA freshman class.
Out of nearly 5000 freshman accepted, less than 50 were Black males. I make this point because when I read statements from posters here (”hardworkingteacher” and “Really amazed”) who falsely claim that many qualified white middle class male applicants did not get into UGA because of reverse discrimination… that is a total myth. With less than 10% of the freshman students accepted being African American, and only 1% being an African American male who is not an athlete – obviously it is not a case of Whites not being allowed-in because spots are reserved for Blacks. Basically, very very few Blacks are being let in. Only a few handfulls of Black males were admitted out of thousands and thousands of freshman.
Let’s face it. If a White male was not admiied to UGA, it had nothing to do with the Black students admitted.
Really amazed
August 29th, 2011
12:58 pm
@Steven, I never said anything about BLACK! Re-read my comments!
why
August 29th, 2011
1:07 pm
@ Really amazed, you didn’t have to.
Really amazed
August 29th, 2011
1:14 pm
Female is minority when you are male!!!! Way to touchy! This happens in businesses too. If they need to fill female or whatever minority position first, they will. I don’t care who is more qualified. Don’t any of you work for big corporate america?
Lee
August 29th, 2011
1:58 pm
Interesting. Years ago, when UGA was the butt of “drive-by diploma” jokes, people weren’t happy and now that UGA is in a position to selectively admit students, people still aren’t happy. Oh well…
——————–
Way back when, I began thinking about college around March of my senior year. SAT Prep meant that you needed to bring enough #2 pencils to make it through the test. Times have indeed changed.
catlady
August 29th, 2011
3:09 pm
Actually the preparation starts before birth. Choose your partner wisely. Then, from the cradle on, be sure to think of the big picture as you raise your child. One of the studies I reviewed for my dissertation was called, “Conversations in the Nursery” on developing college aspirations from a young age.
William Casey
August 29th, 2011
4:46 pm
I loved teaching A.P. American & A.P. European histories. The A.P. Exam is the great equalizer. Does not matter who you are or where you went to school, a FIVE was a FIVE. I found though, that almost every AP Exam grade correlated with the grades achieved in my class.
One aspect of the AP discussion I haven’t seen mentioned here is whether the quality of AP TEACHERS has been maintained with the vast expansion of AP class offerings. I taught AP from 1981 until 2006. Teaching an AP class is very demanding. True, there are no discipline problems, but the fast pace of the course and depth of content preparation are difficult if done properly. I had the advantage of having great undergrad preparation with no education courses until grad school. Big plus. I just wonder if the teaching pool has been diluted by “open enrollment” for AP as the student pool has. I hope not.
Nat Turner
August 29th, 2011
5:01 pm
@Really– You didn’t need to say anything about me pulling the race card. It is tired, and irrelevant. But it speaks volumes that you had to toss that in.
I agree with the poster that said that very few black students are being admitted. That is exactly what I stated. Out of 450 black students, the bulk are females. And the same with the latino population.
And to cover their bases, you better believe that they make sure that the minorities are up to par with the other students, so that the students don’t have to hear what I heard at UGA:
“What are they (pointed at black students) going to do now that they don’t get free and reduced lunch?”
Toco Hills mom
August 29th, 2011
5:08 pm
Megan Hayes-Golding: My daughters are/were at a private school where one AP was “suggested” for sophomores, 2 for juniors, and not more than 3 for seniors. My 2011 grad took 4 AP’s her senior year and did well on them all (including Calc and English). The suggestions were flexible and since it was a small school where the faculty knew the students fairly well, my older daughter had no problems getting the 4 AP’s. She was accepted to Tech (but is not planning to go there for completely other reasons than quality of the school). We were invited to a meet-and-greet event for other potential freshmen there, and I struck up a conversation with another parent, who told me his son had 20 AP’s!!! I believe the family lived in Cobb and the son attended a public school, but I was flabbergasted. What hard work, discipline and dedication that kid must’ve had!
It makes a difference (public vs. private or large vs. small): how many AP’s are available (there aren’t even 20 offered at my daughters’ school), and how much variety (i.e. if a history teacher loves doing AP’s there may be more history AP’s on offer than, say math or science).
Steven
August 30th, 2011
7:43 am
>> ” @Steven, I never said anything about BLACK! Re-read my comments! ”
OK. I will re-read your comment.
>> ” Diversity and female applicants weight more than caus. males. ”
OK. I am sorry… but doesn’t “Diversity” include Blacks? I thought that Diversity was a synonym for ethnic minorities. And Blacks are the largest ethnic minority group in the country.
The point I was making in my previous post is that there is a misconception that “Diversity” groups like Blacks are being given favored treatment for admissions at UGA. I know from first-hand experience (my own son) that is not true. My son (who is Black) took AP classes – scoring 3’s & 4’s – had a GPA higher than the UGA admissions average, and had an SAT score around the UGA admissions average… and was not accepted. The idea that Blacks are being unfaily admitted is bogus. Further, just take a look at the sheer number of “Diversity” persons that are being admitted. The numbers are truly small.
I am not complaining. To me, what happened with my son is evidence that UGA is treating admissions fairly. Unlike your comment that “Diversity” applicants are getting more weight than caucasian males. That simply isn’t true.
GTmom
August 30th, 2011
11:51 am
Our SAT scores are getting higher, no doubt about that. But what about the kids graduating college. Do they seem to be that much more ahead than the kids that graduated 10-20 years ago. In my husband’s company and in my engineering company, everyone is scared to hire a college graduate. They come in and play on Facebook or on their Iphone all day. And then there are the ones that do want to succeed but they end up bothering experienced workers all day with questions. Engineers are supposed to think out side of the box and on their own. Upper management discusses this problem all the time. I swear that my co-worker (19+ years) ended up sitting in a new hires cube for almost a year. The new hire was let go just recently. He graduated highest honors at GA Tech.
If our high school students are so smart, why are they having a hard time in the real world? Something is not working. I have seen my own son learn to read a novel in pre-school. He stresses about his school work (in first grade). All of this early knowledge will help him in school later on and on tests but will he be able to hold down a job.
KMHSmom
August 30th, 2011
12:53 pm
@catlady: Anyone here ever heard of social and cultural capital?
I have read many of your comments on this blog – I know you are liberal, but you hit the nail right on the head sometimes (from my conservative viewpoint). So it seems that the only way to break the chain for kids without cultural capital is to work to change their culture. But then the so-called black leaders get up in arms about maintaining their culture. Remember the attempt to declare “ebonics” as a regional dialect? What are we to do? How can we reach in a change the culture?
old ways not always bad
August 31st, 2011
11:16 am
The formula used to determine the number of students taken from regions within our state or from out of state unfairly punish kids from the metro area. You have a better chance of getting into UGA or Tech if you are from a southern or northern county and it doesn’t matter what your GPA is or how high your national test scores . There are children in the metro area with high GPA’s and high SAT/ACT but they are waitlisted or denied while kids from other parts of the state get accepted with lower scores.
OldTech
August 31st, 2011
4:11 pm
I realize I am coming late to the discussion and have not read all of the other comments. But middle school planning is starting late. When my sons kindergarten teachers told me they had talent, I laid down the ground rules. They did not have to attend Ga Tech, but it could not be because they could not win admission. We started then supplementing their lessons from school with extra vocabulary. We stressed that all homework was to be completed, even the “extra credit” homework. Teachers laughed at us for requiring our children to do “extra credit” when their grades were already in the high 90s. We encouraged our sons to read and trips to Books-A-Million became expensive, as the children had their lists of books they wanted and their release dates. Trips to the library were promoted. Sports, TV and video games were threatened when homework was late or sloppy. We took the time to review our sons’ work and review any issues, including discipline, with their teachers. I have 2 sons attending Ga Tech now and a 10th grader who is hopefully on track.
I say all of this because of a meeting my wife & I attended when my oldest son was completing 8th grade. The counselor who called the meeting for parents of students preparing to enter high school said, “Your students need to start doing their homework and studying for their tests”. What were the first 8 (really 10) years of school? Study habits and the desire to learn should be taught from an early age, not crammed into 4 years of high school. Especially if sloppy work and haphazard studying are already instilled in the student.
Prepare your children from the very start. Read to them as toddlers, teach them to ask questions and wonder. Help them with their homework. (I can’t tell you how many times I have attended parent meetings at the beginning of a school year when parents have stated that they wanted little to no homework sent home with their children. “If you can’t teach it by 3:00 don’t bother.”) If you prepare them academically for Ga Tech and they decide to attend dance school, so much the better. But if they decide they want to study at Ga Tech and miss the opportunity because they thought they could wait until high school to “get serious”, that is a shame.
To Old Tech from Good Mother
September 1st, 2011
11:34 am
Very well said.
I do all you recommend and look forward to more sage advice from you. Keep bringing it to the blogs.
GM
hardworkingteacher
September 4th, 2011
12:48 am
OK- NAT- I know for a fact that several minority students who scored below many of the white male applicants on SAT, ACT, had lower GPA’s with AP and other academically rigorous courses were NOT ACCEPTED TO UGA! If you do not think reverse discrimination is alive and well at UGA and GT, then you are drunk on the government Kool-aid. I know because I see it every day! UGA/GT are losing and have lost some of the most academically talented students to UA, UT, LSU, OU, CLEM-
hardworkingteacher
September 4th, 2011
12:51 am
Really folks- you are sadly mistaken if you think your white male children get a fair shake applying to UGA/GT… and Maureen, comparing William and Mary’s applicants to UGA/GT is pointless.