“By requiring minimum competency testing accountability, we demand mediocrity.”
In the “keeping us honest” department, here is an e-mail from our resident testing expert Jerry Eads in response to the AJC story on exceptional CRCT gains at five APS elementary school, gains that fell far outside the expected range.
The AJC data analyst — the same person who originally did the CRCT analysis in 2008 that led to the exposure of widespread cheating — said the odds of such increases range from about one in 700 to one in 21,000. APS is now looking at the gains, which principals and parents credit to extraordinary efforts.
Jerry is the former coordinator, research and evaluation, for the Georgia Professional Standards Commission:
Here is Jerry’s response to the AJC reporting on this issue:
Oh, where to start.
Those of you who catch my posts know I have fits about the AJC continuing to mislead readers by saying “scores increase” or “scores decrease.” That’s because the so-called “scale” scores on minimum competency tests are virtually meaningless. The ONLY thing that should be said of minimum competency tests is whether PASS RATES go up or down.
I’ve noted many times here that there are ONLY TWO even remotely meaningful “score points” on the CRCT “scale”: 800 & 850. The shape of the raw score ‘curves’ are extremely skewed (they don’t even begin to look like a bell curve). What that shows is that the tests are BY DESIGN very easy for average and above average students – they all get most of the questions correct, and we learn NOTHING worthwhile about those students. That also should tell you that the PR about “high standards” is nothing but, well, PR. “Standards” are fine when you’re fitting doors onto cars on an assembly line, but they have no place in an educational system that should be doing its best to meet the needs of ALL students.
On any state’s tests, the difficulty of the individual questions changes a bit each year, so that a “pass” might be 30 questions one year, 32 the next, and 29 the year after that. What THAT means is that the contracted test makers have to “massage” (i.e., beat the heck out of) the scale each year so that the difficulty represented (in our case) by 800 and 850 (pass and exceeds) is pretty close to the same each year. Nothing else matters. The difficulty of each year’s tests at 800 and 850 still DOES vary a bit (sometimes a lot – remember social studies); that’s one part of why some of the change in district and state pass rates has NOTHING to do with whether students performed better or worse from one year to the next.
For all the millions we spend on accountability testing, most of you should no longer be surprised that while we (testing geeks) can sometimes be pretty good at measuring student learning, we’re totally worthless at splitting hairs with individual students (like the difference between 799 and 800).
Most of us expect that a point on a “scale” on a test, whether it’s from 50 to 51, 500 to 501, or 800 to 801 to be akin to inches on a ruler. That’s pretty much true for something like the SAT. The difference between 4 and 5 inches is the same as between 11 and 12 inches. Nothing could be further from the truth in minimum competency testing. It’s quite possible that the difference between 852 and 858 could actually be LESS than between 858 and 871 in terms of actual student learning.
SO, even though the school’s average reading CRCT “scale” score increased from one year to the next, IF the test actually tried to adequately measure ALL students (like the norm-referenced tests from days of yore), it’s VERY likely the average score would actually go DOWN, because minimum competency testing forces teachers to focus only on those students around the “pass” difficulty level, at the expense of all other students. This is especially true in areas with high proportions of very disadvantaged students.
Are the changes in pass rates at the school referenced in Maureen’s recent post possible? Yes. There are MANY ways to change pass rates – not the least of which is to transfer or at least label as transfers low-performing students. Another is to change answers after the fact. But another is to put all (or most) of your resources into doing NOTHING else but teaching the students performing close to the pass point to pass the tests – to the exclusion of real education. While the last is perhaps the best of three miserable options, it is certainly far from what we should want for our kids. By requiring minimum competency testing accountability, we demand mediocrity.
I’ve heard rumors there may be changes afoot for Georgia’s school accountability. For the sake of our kids, our state, and our state’s economy, I certainly hope so.
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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105 comments Add your comment
teacher&mom
July 29th, 2011
1:00 pm
Once again, thanks to Jerry for shedding light on the truth behind standardized testing.
Alfie Kohn has a few words to share concerning testing:
http://blogs.edweek.org/teachers/living-in-dialogue/2011/07/alfie_kohn_we_have_to_take_bac.html
Mom of 3
July 29th, 2011
1:01 pm
Amen, Middle School Teacher. Schools are training children to spit out facts, not to be curious thinkers who can articulate their thoughts and opinions. Knowing all the facts in the world won’t make you successful in the work place if you are unable to think on your feet, problem solve, and communicate ideas.
Also, awesome teachers can only take a child so far if there is no reinforcement at home. Sure, some exceptional students can be pulled up by an excellent teacher, but most will falter . Unfortunately, it is next to impossible to motivate dead beat, uninvolved parents so the children of these parents will continue to suffer. Sigh. And the parents that need to be reached certainly are not the ones reading this blog. Parents are by far the most important ingredient to a successful, well-rounded education.
Completely agree with the posters who say entitlements need to go. But let’s take it one step further. Are we willing to pull sports in order to boost education? At the high school level, many kids practice 2-3 hours several times a week and then still need to go home and study. While some focused and disciplined athletes are able to do this, I suspect most are not. At my daughter’s high school, the names of the athletes, especially football players, rarely appear on the honor roll. Until scholars are put on the same pedestal as athletes, this problem will continue. What a mess.
Cobb Mom of 4
July 29th, 2011
1:04 pm
What do you think AYP stands for? Certainly not Advanced or Accelerated. Adequate is what they are aiming for. With all of the teaching to the test, what about the grades where the test isn’t emphasized, 1st & 2nd? Are those teachers allowed to be creative and really teach? I ask this as a parent of 2 2nd graders wondering just how much I will need to supplement their education.
Dr. Educ
July 29th, 2011
1:15 pm
Fact is teachers can’t be blamed for the terrible parenting of most socio-economically challenged children. Food, shelter, and safety are simply not enough and do not make one a good parent but a minimal parent. In this technologically advanced world where education is far more important than at any historical moment in time…parents have to be far more proactive in ensuring their child is learning to read and capable in math than ever before. If a child is not exceeding on standardized testing…this really means the child is average and that they know the basics…then the parents should be held accountable. Publish the lists of “bad” parents, limit their driver’s licenses, or some other punishments to get them focused on their children rather than on Xbox, partying, or TV. Meeting the 800 score is ridiculously easy at all grade levels (I realize the GHSGT uses a different score like 500 as the cutoff) but the minimal scores are ridiculous. For instance…getting half right on Economics EOCT equates to a passing score for the test. They sat in class all year, failed most tests, did little school work, parents fail to contact teacher, and yet they pass the EOCT because 50% right on test means they pass the test with a 70. Horrid! At least the military uses a score of 80% for passing.
Another teacher
July 29th, 2011
1:38 pm
Ten years ago the education mantra was “children learn in different styles and at different rates.” Now we must add, “… as long as they can all pass exactly the same test on exactly the same day each school year.”
There is much discussion about using a “value added” measure, but not much discussion about how to achieve it. Why not use one continuous, computerized, test? Include all of the curriculum, grades 1-12, for a given subject in one test. When you sit down at that test in first grade, you go as far as you can, then the test stops and gives you a score. Next year, you sit down and take the same test, starting at a slightly lower level that your score last year, and again, do as much as you can. This type of computer test has been around for decades: if you get a question right, it moves ahead; if you answer incorrectly, it gives you more questions on the same content to see whether or not you know that concept. At the end of 4th grade, you might have a score of “Level 4 A” if you did minimally well, passing all of the 4th grade concepts, but just barely. Then next year, if you learned all of the fifth grade material, and then some, maybe you score “Level 5 B,” or if you didn’t master all of the 5th grade curriculum, maybe you are at “Level 4 G,” somewhere between level 4 and level 5.
This would allow accelerated students to actually be tested.on material they learned that year, not the years before. An accelerated 4th grader might earn Level 6B, for example, because they have mastered 6th grade content, at least in that subject area.
Special education students could also be assessed on their actual progress. A 4th grade student with a learning disability in math might only score level 3B at the end of 4th grade, but if they have progressed to level 4A at the end of 5th grade, they have made progress.
We already have plenty of test questions for each grade level, they would just have to be put into one continuous test, not 12. And we would have to have good computer access for every student, although not necessarily at the same moment in time. Computerized tests would also eliminate some avenues for cheating; answers couldn’t be changed after the student completed the test, and because each student would get a different set of questions, posting the answers on the board would be impossible.
Just my two cents worth.
Dr. John Trotter
July 29th, 2011
1:46 pm
The motivation to learn is a social process/cultural phenomenon. Without the requisite motivation, learning will not take place, despite the heroic teaching of teachers. I know that I sound like a broken record, but this is the unpopular truth. Again, you cannot have good learning conditions until you first have good teaching conditions. These are the same concepts that we have been hammering away at since MACE began in 1995. Before 1995, I had been hammering away at these concepts since the 1970s. In fact, I published a research article in a peer-review journal in the Winter Quarter of 1981 on motivation and peer pressure perceptions. Is this one of the reasons that the educrats have thought me to be “crazy”? Ha! I was always outside of the norm.
http://www.georgiateachersspeakout.com
Dr NO
July 29th, 2011
1:47 pm
The value added mantra is ole, worn-out, tired and just so 90’s. Might we have some new buzzword/phrases that will get us ALL FIRED UP!!!
And please no one say “we are all on the same team” because no we are not. Thats just more jibberish designed to confuse the lazies and dullards. So if the shoe fits…
Truth
July 29th, 2011
2:35 pm
People need to take accountability for their success/lack of success professionally and in life.
And they need to also take accountability for making sure their kids have the values to want to succeed academically/professionally and in life.
Who cares about tests, who is mandating what, what the standards are. If you do your best and raise your kids to do the same, all of this other stuff is just background noise and your kids performance/learning will take care of itself, no matter what the method of measurement.
Stop relying on/blaming others for your motivation/lack thereof!!!
Mom of 3
July 29th, 2011
2:55 pm
Well said, Truth. On all the blogs lamenting the state of education, I always post the same thing with the same key words…….Parents and accountability. If parents did their job in the home by emphasizing reading books and learning over TV, Facebook, gaming, sports, etc., even children in a less than stellar school could excel.
TeacherMom4
July 29th, 2011
3:01 pm
The thing that saddens me the most about the testing is how it has killed the innate intellectual curiosity that children should/did have. I teach elementary, and every year the kids base the value of what I teach on whether or not it will be on the test or if it will be graded. They no longer want to learn because it is interesting or enjoyable. Heartbreaking! I don’t even talk much about the test because I don’t want them to think that that is the be-all, end-all purpose of school. But they already do….
As for scoring, I’ve noticed on my own twins’ test scores that there is inconsistency with how many points are lost for each incorrect answer. Example: in third grade, one scored a perfect 920, the other got one question wrong on the reading test and scored a 905. Fifteen points for one question at the high end. At the low end, looking at other students’ scores, the difference where one student has one less correct than another might be an 801 vs. 805. Since the results are not broken down to tell you which questions might be weighted heavier, it appears that higher level students are “punished” more for errors than lower level students. Is this another way to make sure kids who shouldn’t “meet” standards do, or am I missing something?
Dr NO
July 29th, 2011
3:06 pm
“APS Teachers On Paid Leave Cost $1M Per Month”
You can thank Bev “Fatty” Hall.
Mom
July 29th, 2011
3:19 pm
Mediocrity breeds mediocrity….. bottom line folks. You have got to clean house and get rid of the teachers who have marginalized education in Georgia. Won’t be hard to find them either. If we truly get honest about education in Geo,rgia it is going to step on a lot of toes and make parents out to be racists, unsympathetic to the poor and minorities, elitists…. you name it. It’s worked for 30 plus years so the ship is going to have to be turned around if change is to come. Make no mistake here, we are dealing with a slew of parents, community activists, teachers, and administrators who are not qualified to poor pee out of a boot with directions on the heel. The ones who are worth their salt don’t stick around because they see the writing on the wall. Ask Congressman Allen West if he received a top notch education in Atlanta. I bet he took a few tests in his time.
Janet
July 29th, 2011
3:24 pm
I did not know until recently (and thanks to this blog) that NCLB is done by choice by states. I always thought it was a federal mandate that states HAD to follow. So how do we as parents go about ending this insanity? What can we do? Who do we call? It seems absolutely INSANE that this is a CHOICE and we don’t have to be doing this…. and yet we are.
In about a week or so, I’m sending my first born off to kindergarten in a northern Gwinnett district and I am sick at the idea of mediocrity being the overall “lesson” in public schools thanks standardized testing. It seems to me NCLB is a racist policy (yes racist) that was created as a way to try to solve the problems of the inner city ghettos and some parts of very rural Georgia. But for fear of being deemed racist or anti-minority, they instituted the policy state wide (as did many other states) reguardless of whether or not ALL the schools needed a “minimum standards” policy. This is because, of course, it would have been “racist” to say inner city kids/schools are not achieving and need to be targeted with special policy…. so now ALL kids/schools are victims. All it has managed to do is dumb down some very good schools to the lowest common denominator (aka the inner city ghettos — aka Atlanta Public Schools). Is that what we want… for all schools to conform to the lowest common denominator??? I understand inner cities have major issues and I want them to perform better, I really do, but not at the cost of thousands of other kids who ARE doing well.
I MUCH preferred the system that I grew up with which allowed the kids who wanted to learn, get a good education and the ones who did not, get passed thru until they graduated or dropped out. I went to a mostly white school in Ohio, and there were kids (yes white kids) who did not try, were too into sports or whatever, and they were passed thru. I feel bad for them because I realize that their aptitude for learning (or lack thereof) comes directly from their homelife, but I’m thankful their problems did not affect my education and what I was trying to accomplish. It just seems really wrong to me to punish a whole group of kids who could someday grow up to do great things, because of a relatively small number of those who do not want or do not understand why it’s important to achieve.
In my opinion, I think NCLB is a program that “the powers that be” hoped would improve learning, and graduation rates not for the betterment of kids but more for the money that would hopefully be saved with less prisoners and welfare junkies. The government only cares about the government!! I, personally, don’t for one second believe that the real problem is schools or teachers (although there are some bad apples out there). I 100% believe that the core of the problem is bad parenting (GASP!!!!). Parents who don’t care, will have kids who don’t care… and that’s just the way it is. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE stop wrecking the educations of those who do care. Take the ones who care and grow them. If we can’t grow the ones who do care, we are going to be left with a bunch of weeds.
sloboffthestreet
July 29th, 2011
3:35 pm
Dr. Craig Spinks/ Augusta
July 29th, 2011
5:26 am
The mission of Dr. John Barge and his team is to bring real accountability for our students and teachers. Dr. Barge, Dr. Buck and the other members of Team Barge deserve our complete support in their efforts. GODSPEED to them!
So dear Doctor, where were they when we needed them, like 5,10, 15, or 20 years ago.
Science Teacher 671 gets it. A person that is in touch with reality instead of being a legend in their own mind. The veteran educators are the ones who dropped the ball. Please stop patting yourselves on the back exclaiming your brilliance. The bulb was never lit. We are tired of your prognostication.
Look no further than the SAT scores. Just please remember when you choose to view by school only 10 seniors need to have taken the test to have a school score published. It is not a true reflection of the schools ability to produce a majority of high scoring students.
Remember what John Kay from Steppenwolf sang years ago,,, Yesterdays Glory Won’t Help Us Today, You Want To Retire, Get Out Of The Way,,,,
So everyone who hangs on or has hung on for the paycheck and their self promoted genius, please pack up and get out. Your the holdup!
justjanny
July 29th, 2011
4:10 pm
Positive Parent Achievement + Positive Student Achievement
oh_please
July 29th, 2011
4:25 pm
Bad test results will tend to follow the students with lower innate IQ.
MacScience
July 29th, 2011
4:25 pm
@DeborahinAthens
Exactly what I’ve been saying. These poor young, single women have to stop having babies they can not support financially. Stop having unprotected relations. Get a high school education. Marry a man who has received at least three consecutive years of W2s and can provide for you. Save some money. THEN have children and stress the value of education. Only then will the generational sucession of this floundering culture of underachievement, poverty, and paths to prison be broken. Teachers, no matter how much magic they atttempt to perform in the classroom, can not overcome these sad and poor choices. Someone, besides me, please speak out and acknowledge these facts.
Tad Jackson
July 29th, 2011
4:27 pm
Who’s up for some ancient irony? Check this local-flavor poem out.
RULES FOR SCHOLARS … issued by the Public Schools of Atlanta, 1871
Be steady and prompt in attendance at school,
Conform, in your conduct, to every rule;
The teachers obey in all they direct,
In study show diligence, in manners, respect.
Good order observe, and deportment refined,
And be to your schoolmates obliging and kind.
From language improper, from language profane,
You must altogether, must wholly refrain;
And, though you may deem the importance much less,
Be tidy and cleanly in person and dress.
The tardy or absent will have to produce
From parent or guardian a written excuse;
And only for illness or some urgent cause
Can either be justified, under these laws.
If, in any school month, by willful device,
You are tardy or absent more often that thrice,
The principal teacher, to conquer such sins,
May keep you suspended till a new semester begins.
Your drawing, and music, and dancing postpone,
And all other lessons—save lessons alone
Which fill the school hours in regular way—
Postpone, till the session is ended each day.
Ere the first morning bell has clearly rung out,
You must not assemble within or about
The grounds or the buildings, nor must you at eve
Remain when dismissed, but the premises leave.
Unfurnished with books, or aught that you need
To prosecute study, you cannot proceed;
In such a condition, so strict is the rule,
Your connection, at once, must cease with the school.
For property injured or only defaced,
All damages must be settled in haste;
The utmost delay, suspension to shun,
Is a week from the time the mischief was done;
And the pupil suspended will not be restored
Except by a vote of the Public School Board.
When the school is examined, or all must go through
Some exercise in the public hearing or view,
You must not be absent, in any event,
Without first procuring the teacher’s consent;
If you should, you are out, and out you’ll remain
Till the Superintendent admits you again.
Directly to school, directly away,
Abstaining from quarrel, abstaining from play,
Must you go and return; nor you must be found
At quarrel or play on any school ground.
For study, each pupil is furnished a seat;
He must keep it in order and perfectly neat;
His books and his desk, with what appertains,
He must notice and care for, with similar pains;
And the floor close about him must also be kept
As free from litter as when it was swept.
From Grammar to High School no pupil can go,
Till strictly examined in the studies below;
Save the Superintendent should deem it the best
To grant the promotion without such a test.
From indolent ways, or weakness of mind,
Or irregular slips, should you loiter behind,
Or at close of the year, prove unable to pass
In all of your studies along with the class,
Down, down must you fall, back, back, must you go,
(Or rally at once,) to the next class below.
Should you break with the school ere the school year is out,
Your right to re-enter may come into doubt;
With candidates new for the coveted seat,
On equal conditions, you’ll have to compete,
Nor, till freshly examined and ordered to pass,
Can you have a re-union with any old class.
Suspension, or even expulsion from school,
May follow persistent breaches of rule,
Disobedience stubborn, repeatedly shown,
Disorderly conduct, or quarrel alone,
Or truancy, too, or indolent waste,
Profanity’s words, or language unchaste.
In hours of study, or when you recite,
Forbear to make signals, to speak, or to write,
To any co-pupil, unless you can plead
A special permission for such a rare deed.
If to your own person, or into your home,
Infectious disease or contagion should come,
From school you must stay—come near it no more—
Till health is restored, and the danger is o’er.
Vaccination of all is expected from dread
Of the horrors of smallpox, when suffered to spread.
And now comes, in order, the last of the rules,
Non-resident children can’t enter the schools.
http://www.adixiediary.com
sloboffthestreet
July 29th, 2011
4:42 pm
The powers to be involved in education are simply in it for the money and benefits, so stop trying to convince the parents of anything else. Teachers IQ equals Student IQ PERIOD! GET IT?
Data After a Decade
July 29th, 2011
4:45 pm
I’m trying to understand how some people posting comments
assume that accountability only has existed since NCLB
and CRCT. How did the Atlanta Metro area manage to grow
and prosper prior to the CRCT and NCLB mandates in 2001 ?
Standardized testing is necessary,but many of the technological
developments we utilize come from students educated in
public and private schools prior to dominant focus of test scores
over the past decade.
Don't Understand
July 29th, 2011
4:47 pm
Government-run education monopolies breed mediocrity. All socialist systems do.
duke
July 29th, 2011
4:56 pm
Thanks for revealing another layer of fraud. From my experience as a top student 40 years ago, and from things I have read from the homeschooling community, I have the impression that properly designed standardized tests are an excellent measuring tool. It is my understanding that as student grades dropped on the SAT, the solution was to dumb-down the tests. My 1470 on the old SAT is worth a lot more on the present version of those tests.
But suppose we did have standardized tests that provided meaningful measurements for all students. They could not reform education. The problem pervades the entire education establishment- teachers colleges, senior administrators, etc.- Many teachers cannot teach because they were never taught. John Dewey’s progressive education began in 1904, and has long since become the prevailing paradigm. An international socialist and an atheist, Dewey did not believe in absolute truth. Everything changes, so there is no point in memorizing things. His early graduates could not use a dictionary because they had not memorized the alphabet. As exercise strengthens the body, so memorization strengthens the mind; but Dewey emphatically rejected academic rigor. Progressive education inculcates attitudes and social skills to cope with constant change. In the more extreme applications of Dewey’s theories, students are not taught the standard methods of mathematics. Instead, they are divided into small groups and told to work together to develop innovative solutions.
The social group is everything; the state, the ultimate extension of the group, is God. Students must outgrow the superstitious religious beliefs and provincial national loyalties of their parents, and become socialistic world citizens. Individual excellence is discouraged because it separates a child from the group. Morality is relative; a person living among thieves should follow the morality of that social group. Teachers cheat because they don’t believe in academic or moral standards.
Read Phyllis Schlafly’s editorials about the National Education Association. The NEA is the top spender in political lobbying and election advertising. Homosexual rights, abortion rights, children’s rights, pre-kindergarten from age three; gun control, United Nations treaties, citizenship for illegal aliens- their issues, like their textbooks, have little to do with academics and much to do with the international socialist agenda. The lobbying is funded by mandatory dues from rank-and-file teachers who have no voice in the matter.
These people will never compromise. They are more fervently committed to their beliefs than most Christians are to ours. If No Child Left Behind were genuine education reform, Senator Ted Kennedy would never have co-sponsored it. Empowering centralized government and increasing administrative burdens, this latest charade does nothing to improve education. Most parents are little help, because they were educated under this same system. Parents will raise heck if a favorite sport is discontinued, and will work diligently to generate support for a new sports stadium; but try getting any action from them to correct the dismal academic performance.
For years the standardized tests have contained specially coded questions to identify students whose beliefs are not compatible with international socialism. In at least one case, parents heroically persisted to get access to the tests and proved this in court. See “Brave New Schools”, by Berit Kjos. She documents this case, and demonstrates how myths, feelings, and imaginations have replaced logic and history.
Also get a copy of John Stormer’s book, “None Dare Call It Treason”, and read the chapter on education. It begins with a quote from Admiral Hyman Rickover, my old boss from the nuclear submarine force:
“America is reaping the consequences of the destruction of traditional education by the Dewey-Kilpatrick experimentalist philosophy … Dewey’s ideas have led to the elimination of many academic subjects on the ground that they would not be useful in life … The student thus receives neither intellectual training nor factual knowledge which will help him understand the world in which he lives, or to make well-reasoned decisions in his private life or as a responsible citizen.”
Jerry Eads
July 29th, 2011
6:20 pm
Bravo, everyone. Many thoughts on many wonderful comments, but for now just a few – a geeky issue: @Chris, again, BRAVO – BUT, it works out that if we build 4-choice multiple-guess tests so that takers average about 55% of the questions correct, we generally maximize the reliability of the test. Just is. Somehow many of you teacher folk got suckered into believing “passing” should be “70%.” Hate to break it to you, but you make less reliable tests doing that.
NEVER forget that it’s EASY to make a test that takers get 25% right (guessing) or 90% right. It’s ALL in how hard we make the questions, which can be almost completely independent from how much kids know. Remember that a test is just an infinitesimally small sample of kids’ knowledge. Those who post here frequently say something like “it’s too easy, they only need to get half the questions right.” Nope.
Another teacher noted his/her personal experience reflecting what the research overwhelmingly says: that kids take the low road when we essentially tell them that just passing a minimum comptetency test (CRCT, EOCT, GHSGT, etc.etc.) is adequate.
Someone else seemed to think it was okay to tell kids that the 10th percentile was just fine, no more is necessary. I beg to differ. There WILL be kids at the 10th percentile. But to tell a 90th percentile kid that the 10th is plenty borders on the criminal.
Many of you likely understand percentiles, but many may not; I’ll be happy to do one of these explaining percentiles if y’all and Maureen are interested.
Dr. Craig Spinks/ Augusta
July 29th, 2011
6:40 pm
Dr. Eads,
As I age, the voice of Reason resonates more symphonically.
Paddy O
July 29th, 2011
6:45 pm
Jerry has a bit of that liberal asinine idealism. He should support 100% the NCLB goal of 100% of kids passing class. Not realistic, but excellent PR pollyanna manure. ALL kids won’t learn – if you get 85% to pass & understand what was being taught, youve done a very good job.
sloboffthestreet
July 29th, 2011
7:32 pm
Perhaps Jerry Eads should visit a fifth grade classroom and ask the kiddies a few multiplication problems along with who was the first president. I agree with Paddy O. Too much bla,bla,bla. The same with Leon Spinks.
Data After a Decade
Maybe you missed the memo. Georgia was last, 51st in high school graduation in 2001. Perhaps a voice of reason could explain it to you, or you could go to the wizard himself and deal with %. Either way, it’s not pretty.
sloboffthestreet
July 29th, 2011
8:08 pm
“The state of Georgia is near the bottom among states for SAT scores and graduation rates.”
Go look for yourself. The TRUTH-O-METER says “TRUE”
It’s pegged all the way to the right. And you teachers cry, “JUST LET US TEACH?”
REALLY???
sloboffthestreet
July 29th, 2011
8:08 pm
CAN WE TALK???
Jerry Eads
July 29th, 2011
8:53 pm
Ah. More people who don’t understand testing. Understandable. I dearly apologize for having failed to explain this one tiny piece adequately. I vividly remember our trying to explain some of these most basic issues to the state board of education in Virginia years ago We failed miserably. Not one of them, including some very bright businesspeople and even university professors managed to understand, for example, the issue of question difficulty. In the end, having not a remote clue what they were deciding, they declared that students would have a passing score of 70 – and that they wanted 98% of the students to pass.
I do indeed understand the frustration of the teacher above who suggested I visit a fifth grade classroom. Especially in schools with many disadvantaged kids – some of whom are homeless, MANY with one or no parents to speak of, some who have been shot at last night, some who haven’t had a meal at home in weeks, some who have lead poisoning from the pipes in their old house, and we could go on – those kids for some reason have a tough time worrying about who the first president was. And it’s incredibly tough to teach them at all, much less a one-size fits all middle class kid curriculum. Fortunately for a few kids whose parents can afford to live close to a hot school, they’ll go on to UGA or MIT (or whatever) and the 10th percentile tests will be nothing more than a bunch of boring wasted time.
If all you think you should be doing is teaching all kids at the tenth percentile, I hope you’ll find something else to do besides teach.
Jennifer
July 29th, 2011
10:42 pm
“not the least of which is to transfer or at least label as transfers low-performing students.” RE: Alternative Disciplinary Education Schools.
Agree
July 30th, 2011
12:19 am
yes. The tests are designed to measure failure, not success. Teachers teach to the state standards, there is no time for anything else and that is what we are paid to do. The tests cover the state standards. The problem is the attitude that the performance standards be so low to prevent rural Georgia from failing. The Ag community has a large pull in Georgia. RAISE THE STANDARDS so our kids can be competive nationally and internationally. That means raising the standards for pre-K and K children and having them learn how to learn in school and emphasize the importance of standard behaviors to enable learning. Its a shame that many parents won’t do it. It means valuing educaton. For higher standards to work parents will need to stop demanding the “easy A” and accept the truth of their child’s performance.
Dr. Craig Spinks/ Augusta
July 30th, 2011
1:37 am
Agree,
We teachers need to stand up to parental demands for inflated grades. But standing up requires backing. Get MACE.
DCPS Whistler
July 30th, 2011
1:40 am
SAT scores were recentered in 1995. The following link takes one to a page on the “Illinois Loop” website. There are lots of articles about testing.
http://208.106.213.194/detail/news.cfm?news_id=229&id=
SAT Scores Recentered in 1995.
“Defining Deviancy Downward” by Diane Ravitch (1996) Excerpts:
Two years ago, the College Board–decided to “recenter” the scores by arbitrarily declaring that the 1990 scores on both the verbal and mathematical portions of the test would serve as the new average. The fairly robust math score of 475 was transformed overnight to a 500, and the anemic verbal score of 424 also was lifted to 500. With the stroke of a pen, extremely poor performance on the verbal portion of the test was turned into the new norm.
Scores on the SAT range from 200 to 800, with a mean of 500. In 1963-64, average scores reached an all-time high of 478 on the verbal portion and 502 in mathematics. After that year, however, the scores dropped steadily until 1980, when they leveled off with verbal scores at 424 and the mathematical average at 466.
In 1977, a blue-ribbon panel commmissioned by the College concluded that the steep erosion in SAT scores was due in part to the diversification of students taking the test, but also to lowered expectations, an increase in nonacademic elective courses, the assignment of less homework, grade inflation, and a diminution of thoughtful reading and writing. It concluded that the score decline was significant but not irreversible.
“In recent years, states and colleges have raised standards in order to improve academic achievement. In response, students are now taking more advanced courses in mathematics and the sciences. Because of higher enrollments in courses like algebra and geometry, SAT mathematics scores have improved. Verbal scores, however, have not. As of 1995, the SAT mathematics score had increased to 482 (and it was up another two point in 1996)–not very far from its historic high in 1963-64– but the verbal scores scarcely budged, never rising above 431. (This is not, as some might think, caused by the increased diversity of test-takers, the verbal scores of non-Hispanic white students have not risen above 450 in twenty years).”
gradgrind
July 30th, 2011
3:08 am
Duke, how do you account for the heterosexual Christians who cheated on their students’ exams?…
sloboffthestreet
July 30th, 2011
7:56 am
Jerry Eads, Please try to wrap your brain around this concept. Test or no test, go speak with a group of 5th graders and a group of recent High School Grads and ask them basic knowledge questions. After 13 years of public education it is disgusting what recent grads don’t know and I’m speaking about basic skills needed to function in the world. We don’t need inflated grades, we already get those every time a report card is sent home. We know it’s a lie. What we do need are students who all can read, write, add, subtract, multiply and divide. Can make change, understand % and fractions and can perhaps even read a tape measure.
No, we will never be as brilliant as you, well at least not in your mind. You remind me of President Obama stating, “The only people who can understand the debt crisis are Professional Politicians.” If I remember correctly, they are the ones who got us into this mess in the first place. Sound familiar?
Jerry Eads
July 30th, 2011
9:35 am
@slob, I’m not arguing that there are no schools with lousy leadership and less than superb teachers. I’m arguing that the worthless accountabilty testing we’ve tried for 30+ years has in fact made it worse. There are TONS of research showing that this is the case.
There are of course schools that do not have the proper human and physical resources to help destitute students who have minimal cognitive capacity and even less motivation to tackle school. There are also public schools in Georgia that regularly send kids to Harvard and MIT. This year one kid was so good she got a free ride all the way through Harvard. Her family can’t rub two dimes together.
I’m sorry if you have not the educational experience or the intellectual capacity to understand the basic technical constructs I tried to explain above. They have NOTHING to do with politics, except that politicians and other policymakers have either duped you into believing mincomp testing helps, or have been duped themselves by testing companies that the money is well spent.
sloboffthestreet
July 30th, 2011
11:18 am
Mr. Eads, I can’t help it if your sorry. Yes I read the feel good story of the stuent with the full boat to Harvard. Hats Off. Here in Georgia I see educators who lack the fundamentals to teach a dog to sit. Their Math and English skills also lack what it takes to accomplish the task. As for money spent on programs look no further than Handwriting Without Tears. The name alone should send any professional in the opposite direction. Then we come across McGraw Hill and their Reading Counts Program along with their Open Court Disaster. Another fleecing of the taxpayers dollar. I find it interesting when you ask a Professional Educator why they chose these programs they say they are researched based. Now your the researcg GURU, please go find any study of McGraw Hill programs that state they are effective in educating our children. The only one I found was from the Federal Department Of Education that they found no proof that students performed better using their material. McGraw Hill states their program is researched based. Guess who did the research? McGraw Hill. Do you see a problem with that. Once again, the 20 & 30 year veterans in education and research specialists have done what. Oh, you have TONS of research against worthless accountabilty testing. What a suprise. So what have you done to correct the problem. You got MACE??? This education system and the research community continue to fail students even in schools that have the “Physical resources to help destitute students who have minimal cognitive capacity and even less motivation to tackle school.” You make it sound as if entire school populations have no students with an IQ over 80. Please spend a week in any K class at the start of the school year. The poorer the community the better. Now observe these students and tell me that none of these kids are interested in learning, they lack a desire to succeed and are not interested in bonding with other students and the teacher. Most children do not turn themselves off to education, it’s the adult educators who lack the skills to understand the students needs and give them the tools to become productive adults. It only takes one bad teacher to turn kids off to education forever.
Digger
July 30th, 2011
12:11 pm
‘Educators’ learn to BS their way through everything in Teacher School. They learn to talk the talk, despite their inherent low IQ and bottom-feeder brains. You’re seeing the results in the daily headlines.
amazed
July 30th, 2011
12:50 pm
@DCPS
Interesting data. I think that also aligns with my experience. Grammar and understanding among young people is often pretty weak. But basic math (i.e. being able to handle a cash register) seems to be stronger than the 70s. Of course, they don’t have to calculate the change with the newer registers, merely add it up. But you ran into a lot who couldn’t do either before.
As for teaching to the minimum or not teaching thinking skills, that just depends on the school and the teachers. I don’t think that is the case with my children’s schools. And I wonder if, in the math and science push, they are now pushing too much in math too soon. My 3rd grader was doing things I don’t remember addressing until Jr. High. And he was not spending enough time mastering multiplication, addition and division.
slp98
July 30th, 2011
2:18 pm
@Slob and @Digger,
Since teachers are so awful in GA, it sounds like you need to find another state in which to live. Delta’s ready when you are!
sloboffthestreet
July 30th, 2011
3:31 pm
slp98, I think since I’m already here and was told what great schools the state and especially my county have, I will simply continue to demand change. You know, Out with the trash. You can tell when your getting close to the truth when the people on the other side of the argument have nothing to say.
amazed, I remember working at McDonalds in the early 70’s and the register only presented a total. You had to mentally subtract from the amount paid to make correct change. I don’t remember anyone having trouble accomplishing this task. I do agree with your comment about not spending time on the facts. As I always stress to my children, You must know the facts before you can solve a problem.
Paddy O
July 30th, 2011
3:57 pm
As you can plainly see Jerry looks at the intrinsic problems that teachers have no control over, determines they are insurmountable, then does the classic deception/distraction propoganda tactic – “tests are written so they are too difficult”. This SHOULD happen in college for a fifth grade test? There should be NO subterfuge – all the friggin answers are multiple choice anyway, the passing threshold near 50%, yet still only 70% of the kids are passing – and some of these fool teachers say that the curriculum needs to be more rigorous – are you people completely off your rocker? Or have you ceased being able to observe reality? I would say that the curriculm here in Georgia is too rigorous for the lower grades, that block scheduling in high school (classes of 90 minutes will ultimately be quite boring after 2 weeks unless you are discussing porn or sports) contributes to the horrific drop out rates, and that the mandate that 100% of the kids (paid for by your local tax dollars by the local school system, BTW) creates the pathetically low test scores we see in Georgia (Georgia ranks 6th in the # of kids who take the test). This is ALL the result of liberal pollyanna, utopianistic asinine idealism – which provides horrible results. Which prompts the citizens to do what? Get worried and conned into paying the school industry in GA more money so they are more motivated to solve the problem. Meanwhile, it is a self created problem by the very same people gaming the citizens to throw MORE money at the problem, which the people who created the problem get paid to them. WE have faulty standards – you see it at the State BOE, and at the regents – do YOU think that TECH schools should be community colleges? Offer 4 year degrees? Have police departments BUT NO RESIDENT STUDENTS? West Georgia Tech in Carrollton is a perfect example of liberal asinine idealism run amok – and supported by the maroons at the Regents.
Paddy O
July 30th, 2011
4:02 pm
Today’s schools have it very, very tough – students have way, way more distractions, far less respect for authority, and an entitlement mentality. Recipes for disasters. And for that person who stated standard were kept low for rural Georgia – the cheating happened in the most urban place in this state – you need to point the finger in the right place if you are going to correct what is wrong.
duke
July 30th, 2011
4:08 pm
GradGrind, you wrote, “Duke, how do you account for the heterosexual Christians who cheated on their students’ exams?…”
Christians are not a different species. We are all fallen men, apt to sin. The difference is that Christians call it sin, try to keep ourselves from it, and have accountability procedures to take corrective action when we fail. Dewey’s philosophy does not call it sin. These teachers do not believe in academic standards to begin with, and they have no moral framework which tells them cheating is wrong. You cannot solve a problem like this by toughening the standards; you must first establish the fact that there ought to be standards, both academic and moral. Otherwise we will be talking at cross purposes forever.
I don’t know that any heterosexual Christians were cheating on their tests. The most committed Christians left the public schools long ago, for just such reasons as this. It is hard enough to raise a child as a Christian in this fallen world. It is virtually impossible when the child spends eight hours per day under the control of a school system which actively promotes cheating on tests.
Incredulous
July 30th, 2011
4:39 pm
Paddy O. Just when I start to think you’re gaining ground and actually thinking critically, you go off on yet another tangent,,,ending with your trite claims of liberalism run amock. Do some research, actually read the ENTIRE work, then offer a position. I agree that it is a large con game. However, the people that are holding the deck of cards only have a political affinity if it is convenient. McGraw Hill was put in place by the Bush administration.
Birds of a Feather
July 30th, 2011
6:04 pm
@Incredulous. I know what you mean. You read these education blogs and notice that the same names keep appearing on all of them, all gratuitously insulting, contemptuous, teacher-bashing though none are educators, and evidently retired/unemployed with plenty of time to type out loooong entries: Paddy O, Dr. No, Sloboffthestreet, Ole Guy….Curiously, all with conservative viewpoints………
sloboffthestreet
July 30th, 2011
8:37 pm
HHMMM, I didn’t know a bird could be liberal. Perhaps that is the problem with public schools. A bunch of bird brains.
So bird of a feather brain, you get what you give and are well deserved of every bit of it. As for my day, coffee, laundry and the dishwasher @5:oo am. Breakfast for the boys and wife, 7:30. A dip in the pool and off to pick 2 gallons of blueberries. A trip to the grocery store and back home for more pool time. Imagine I still had time to poke you with a stick several times during the day. Dosen’t seem possible now does it. What you don’t like is some of us are observant enough to call BS on what you call a job and the end result of your so called efforts. If what you think is “Gratuitously insulting, contemptuous, teacher-bashing” and you find it so offensive how about you go the extra mile and fix this mess some refer to as public education. It would have given me time to pick an extra gallon of berries today. Careful what you wish for. You just might get it. Now please quit your whining and get to work. If a conservative view point is that a teacher is responsible for the proper education of my children then you are right on the money. Make it so #1.
Paddy O
July 31st, 2011
1:45 am
Birds – catlady is actually fairly conservative – she demands accountability – incredulous and I actually agree a lot more than she/he believes – she/he filters stuff through a much more liberal perspective. A woman named Angela has come on and been pretty candid and blunt. Our comments would be DEAD WRONG musings of idiots and morons – except, Georgia’s school industry is producing edsels in almost every meaningful litmus test. Yet, no one seems to be able to pinpoint a specific HUMAN culprit – that is a plank of traditional liberalism – blame the nebulous group -society/the test makers/parents/administrators – because actually calling out names requires too much accountability. Kathy Cox & who was the idiot before her? Linda something? Demand a lot of the blame, but so does apparently 60-80% of the people working at the state board of education. SACS is a crap organization – why is Atlanta not lost its accreditation? Systematic cheating seems far worse than a board of elected officials disagreeing about a policy (perhaps that policy is mandated by SACS, and that is the actual hurdle?). Layer after layer of BS. Most folks recognize teaching takes a ton of talent and desire, and the good ones are gold. Why push to have all kids take the SAT and make the entire education industry in Georgia appear inept? ASININE LIBERAL IDEALISM. If they keep shoving, the round peg will fit in the square hole, although it won’t benefit anybody but the putz who came up with the goal.
Paddy O
July 31st, 2011
1:47 am
Also, McGraw Hill has been around since what? At least the 70’s – I suspect just recently they have had an MBA from an Ivy League school take over and manipulate his “compensation” package such that this deal with the Bush admin. was mandatory to obtain the most revenue for himself. How much do the feds contribute to each kids teaching costs? Per kid per year?
Paddy O
July 31st, 2011
1:55 am
And Jerry Eads being perceived as many as the godfather of testing on this blog, yet he chronically lambasts and marginalizes the testing process itself is one of the largest layers of BS I have run into on this blog. Believe me, if GA schools were passing all kids at 85% minimum, and the SAT scores got us into the top 50% here in the good ole USA, I would’nt be griping too much. But there is entirely too much complacency, gaming the income system, and gross failure to just keep on keeping on. Those of you of the ostrich persuasion can keep arguing that the conservatives are clueless and too demanding, but that would lead to one conclusion. Modern liberalism is the problem.