Do AYP transfers create solutions for kids or new problems for schools?
The state releases its list of schools today that made adequate yearly progress and those that didn’t, setting off a chain of transfers of students out of Needs Improvement schools to higher performing schools that met AYP, as mandated under the federal No Child Left Behind Act.
But many parents wonder about the wisdom and the timing of AYP status.
Here is a copy of a note that one parent sent to the state Department of Education about the late timing of this process:
I am very concerned about the timing of the release of even preliminary ESEA (AYP) results.
Please help me understand why it takes until late July for April test results to be made available. I understand that principals and districts must certify results, but these tasks should be of the highest priority. Georgia DOE deadlines should be tight and enforced.
School starts three weeks from today and parents still do not know how AYP status will impact their child. I am a DeKalb county resident (sigh!) and the uproar of AYP transfers affects every single high school student. You can’t imagine the distraction, the massive rescheduling required for receiving schools, and the waste of energy each year.
I understand that DCSS bears most of the responsibility for this issue, but the Georgia DOE holds all of the cards since it controls the data and the release of the data to parents. Please tell me what the Georgia DOE will do differently next year to release AYP data at a reasonable, not last-minute, date.
Here is a note to me from a DeKalb parent about whether these transfers even improve student outcomes:
Have you ever addressed in your coverage of the DeKalb County School System whether the mandated AYP transfer program for students actually improves student performance?
I ask because at the county presentation Dr. Beasley confirmed that the county has never tracked academic progress, graduation rates or rate of return for the millions of dollars invested in implementing the AYP transfer option out of Needs Improvement schools under NCLB. All of that money invested in a program to which we have no clear understanding if it even works for these students who leave their home schools.
Better solutions for fixing schools must exist rather than creating chaos in other succeeding schools. Mark your calendar for certainly, if we must receive all of these transfer students, we will not have settled schedules, classrooms, teaching and support staff until after Labor Day when counts are determined for teaching points; one month of education compromised due to lack of foresight.
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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105 comments Add your comment
Dr. Craig Spinks/ Augusta
July 21st, 2011
2:26 am
D.W. Oellerich, late principal of the school at Graceood State School and Hospital near Augusta, once reminded his staff, “Figures don’t lie but liars do figure.”
Who would ever have suspected that liars would resort to student-shuffling to “win” some inane, educratic game?
36 years in education
July 21st, 2011
6:38 am
There is also a game played by administrators and teachers called, “Encourage those students who have criminal records, behavior problems, and no motivation” to transfer OUT of your school to attend a school that meets AYP. Think of it as a second chance……a new beginning…..a fresh start……a fine way to cull those people who prevent your school from making AYP to leave on a positive note.
Dr. Spinks, you’re right…..it’s a game….an inane game.
Cobb Teacher
July 21st, 2011
6:51 am
One of the issues that Maureen NEVER seems to address is that a school can fail to meet AYP based on a very small subgroup of students. Is the public even aware (or care) that a school could meet all the criteria for meeting AYP with the vast majority of their students, yet a small subgroup (such as ESL or special ed) could not meet the criteria and the WHOLE school fails. I totally agree that schools need to focus attention on these special subgroups, but labeling the the school a total failure in cases such as this is totally unjust. So now you have whole groups of parents wanting to transfer their children thinking their home school is a complete failure, when in reality, it may OR may not.
From what I understand, AYP status is based on Georgia’s interpretation of NCLB. Other states may define AYP passing or failure differently.
Interested Participant
July 21st, 2011
6:57 am
On the timing….You have to understand that none of the AYP data is final until after all of the summer retakes of testing is complete. Our kids who didn’t pass the first time went to summer school 3 weeks in June and then retested the end of the month. It can take 10 days to get the scores back. All of that has to be updated in the DOE database and everything has to be recalculated. There are mechanisms in place for schools/districts to appeal if it appears that there is an error in the data. I guess that is one of the reasons we do the first testing in April and not at the end of the year – because then we would be really behind. Our kids don’t return to school until almost September. You also have to remember that the DOE has to pick a timeline and stick to it because every district has a different start and end date.
Dunwoody Mom
July 21st, 2011
7:00 am
To take Cobb Teacher’s excellent point further, high school AYP status is based on the Graduation Tests that only Juniors take. So, can not only a small subgroup affect AYP, it is a small subgroup of one grade in a high school. So, basically a group of 41 can “fail” and an entire school is labeled failing. That’s even more insane. I think it was an excellent idea to phase out the grad tests for the EOCT’s.
d
July 21st, 2011
7:08 am
Also, Dunwoody, don’t forget that at the high school level, we’re dealing with the juniors who took the Math I-II-III GHSGT for the first time this year. Anytime you change the test, we see scores go down.
Write Your Board Members
July 21st, 2011
7:11 am
Unless something has changed, the summer retest is not included in today’s release.
DCSS starts school too early especially in light of the fact that 1000 plus families are likely to ask for transfers. DeKalb has the most schools not making AYP and also has the most demand for choice. The school system as a whole is simply broken.
Last year, the AYP transfer situation was a train wreck of unbelievable proportions. The powers that be promised both parents and the Board that they would have a different plan for the 11-12 school year. NCLB allows lots of alternatives including closing schools and reopening them, etc so you can imagine our surprise when the plan they presented last week was exactly the same as previous years.
But, as always in DCSS, no one will be held accountable. The vast majority of the high school students who make a choice will be enrolled an an “annex” housed at the now shuttered Avondale High School, but who will be students of Druid Hills. If the 350ish students actually take the slots, they will spend their entire HS career as Druid Hills students without even walking into the building. They will graduate from DHHS without ever having taken a class there.
Ernest
July 21st, 2011
7:11 am
Cobb Teacher mentions the problem with NCLB that many has sought to fix, only allowing members of the impacted subgroup to transfer IF they have historically not done well in their home school. Unfortunately because of the way the law is written, anyone can take advantage of the transfers and many do because they know it is their right.
To take a step further, the sending school may fall short in other areas if their stronger students leave the school due to NCLB. This seems to create a ‘lose lose’ situation for both the sending and receiving school
ATL Teacher
July 21st, 2011
7:23 am
Parents should look at the AYP reports before transferring their child. As a teacher, I know that attendance and (as aforementioned) small sub groups are crazy indicators. It almost amazes me that the DOE released, for the first time, a modified CRCT for Special Education students. Before, these students just has accommodations like small groups and the test being read to them. In regards to AYP Status, they don’t release due summer school enrollees.
Don
July 21st, 2011
7:42 am
Problems, without a doubt. Any teacher whose school receives students from nonAYP schools will honestly agree.
Anonymous
July 21st, 2011
7:47 am
The Georgia DOE responded promptly and thoroughly to the e-mail that was quoted in the beginning of this topic. I think they made a good case that they work extremely hard to release AYP results as early as possible.
I learned that the AYP reporting process requires some data that can’t be obtained until the school year ends, and that schools and districts are given the opportunity to review and error check the data before its release, which I agree with.
According to the Georgia DOE, Georgia has always been one of the first states, and usually THE first state, to release AYP determinations. Georgia DOE meets the deadline while maintaining accuracy and integrity of the data and the determinations. They are not waiting until the last minute.
However, learning this just makes me despair.
People appear to be working doing a good job but it still is not timely. I guess my next step is the US Department of Education, the folks who set up this system.
Of course, if I lived in a county where most schools made AYP it wouldn’t be so much of an issue. But I live in DeKalb — sigh….
@Interested Participant
July 21st, 2011
7:56 am
Graduation test re-takes were taken last week. There is no way those are taken into account for this release of AYP. AYP is recalculated in September I believe to take summer re-tests into account.
SGaDawgette
July 21st, 2011
7:57 am
If the DOE can’t get this “valuable” data out in a way so as not to be disruptive to the start of school, maybe the start of school should best be delayed until September.
Dunwoody Mom
July 21st, 2011
8:00 am
@d- good point, re: Math scores. In looking at the DCSS Math scores, my guess is that every school, maybe with the exception of DSA, will have a subgruoup that does not make the cut with regards to the Math test.
@Write your board member, you are correct that the scores released today do not reflect the summer retakes. Those will be released and some schools will make AYP after those are factored in.
atlmom
July 21st, 2011
8:01 am
And I heard that it doesn’t matter if the accepting school is overcrowded – they must take AYP transfers. Is that true? at what point does a school get crowded ‘enough’ to say: no more kids? It’s crazy. Because at some point, the accepting school would not be able to keep their AYP due to too many students…
Cere
July 21st, 2011
8:07 am
“Better solutions for fixing schools must exist rather than creating chaos in other succeeding schools.”
You would think.
We have definitely gone through the looking glass in the USA Department of Education.
Dunwoody Mom
July 21st, 2011
8:18 am
@atlmom – there is no point where a school is too overcrowded for AYP transfers. The law does not allow schools to take into consideration enrollment when determing receiving schools. The only part of the NCLB law is the segregation of data by sub-group; however, there has to be a better way of using this data.
Dunwoody Mom
July 21st, 2011
8:19 am
That should read, “The only part of the NCLB law that I find useful is the segregation of data by subgroup”….
Suavez
July 21st, 2011
8:22 am
Sadly, good schools like Morningside and Spark get stuck with these transfer students from the hood. The kids are usually so far behind they use up all the teachers time and the kids who actually live in the neighborhood are forced to learn on their own. Thank you George Bush.
Ed
July 21st, 2011
8:33 am
Maybe I’m wrong, but isn’t it true that transfer to another school is NOT the only option under the law? Can’t parents ask that their kids be tutored, which may actually prove a better option for the child?
atlmom
July 21st, 2011
8:39 am
Ed: I read: can’t parents ask that their kids be tortured? And I was thinking: aren’t they already, by our highly dysfunctional system?
Dunwoody: well, then. So we want all of our schools to fail. I get it.
This is a horrible law. And while I understand the idea of the subgroups, I don’t think it is the best use of things. It divides us more and identifies us more as part of a subgroup, but not part of a whole. so what do people say: oh, so and so’s scores are horrible, but he/she’s only part of XXX subgroup, so it looks good in comparison. Maybe that’s not the intent but that’s what ends up happening, I think.
Helena
July 21st, 2011
8:39 am
In *my* experience, the main beneficiaries of transfers are realtors and “gentrifying” neighborhoods. I’ve taught in two schools that had transfer policies for being on the list (though both schools have made AYP in recent years and are no longer eligible.) The schools also happen to be in upcoming parts of Metro Atlanta. Though both were Title 1 schools with large numbers of free/reduced lunch students, real estate developers marketed their new $500K+ subdivisions by telling families that their kids didn’t have to go to the “failing” local school but could instead be bused to much fancier, upper-middle-class schools in the county. I’ve had local parents tell me to my face that they never intended to send their kids to my “crappy” school, but they bought their house because it was so much bigger and more affordable than the houses near the fancier schools where they intended to send their kids.
The law was intended to give struggling, low-income students an opportunity to go to more supposedly successful (i.e. wealthier) schools However, each when we looked at the list of students who took advantage of transfers, the names were almost entirely from local families in those brand new subdivisions… instead of poor kids from Section 8 housing who were struggling at my school. Now that both my current and former schools have made AYP for several years straight, I’m feeling a bit of schadenfreude toward those parents who bought their posh new houses under the assumption that they’d never actually have to send their kids to the “ghetto” local school.
Helena
July 21st, 2011
8:43 am
I meant to add that whenever I met teachers from the wealthy schools in my county who received transfer students, they often sneered that they hated NCLB for forcing them to accept “subpar” poor kids who “brought down our successful school” and just couldn’t keep up with their standards — and the words carried an unsubtle whiff of racism/classism.
www.honeyfern.org
July 21st, 2011
8:44 am
@atlmom: thought your reading of Ed’s comment (”tortured”) was spot on.
Transferring from a NI school is like switching life boats when exiting the Titanic. You are still sinking. PS is a bit like that and will continue unless there are substantial changes. Making AYP in most cases signals that the school has achieved an acceptable level of mediocrity. Don’t you want more than that?
Lynn43
July 21st, 2011
8:44 am
Many very good schools have been “falsely” label as failing because of sub-groups. If you are involved in your child’s, you will know whether or not your school is doing a good job. You will not need AYP to tell you. Just one very sickly student who is absent too many days in a sub-group can prevent an entire school from making AYP while the test scores could be “out the top”. The entire country is reeling from the unfair regulations of NCLB. I know of three states who are saying “enough is enough”, Idaho, Montana, and South Dakota, and others are considering their options.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…/montana-could-lose-federal-n-892728...
Cere
July 21st, 2011
8:50 am
Exactly Helena. Add to your points the fact that these transfer students’ parents receive reimbursement for their own transportation. This is sent to them via a monthly check and is for somewhere around $.50/mile – for TWO round trips a day. So say you live in Lithonia and you take a transfer to Dunwoody. That’s a 25 mile trip. 50 mile round trip. 2 times x day = 100 miles. That’s a $50 per day reimbursement! Multiply that by an average of 20 school days per month and you get a whopping $1000 a month for mileage. However, your child rides the MARTA bus for $50 a month. Cha-ching!
Cere
July 21st, 2011
8:56 am
Helena – you are also right about the receiving school’s response. In DeKalb, it is classism, definitely. Arabia, the brand new gorgeous LEED certified $60 million school, which is a majority minority (upper/middle class) and “passed” AYP has been pushing back hard against having to take AYP transfers. The school board relented with their school board rep Jay Cunningham lamenting, “We can’t have trailers at Arabia!” (Nevermind that Lakeside has over 20 and Chamblee has nearly 40!) Now, the board has decided to stash 300-350 students at the recently closed Avondale HS and call them Druid Hills transfer students. How weird is that?
Understanding Atlanta
July 21st, 2011
8:58 am
There’s a reason AYP transfers aren’t always successful. It doesn’t change the underlying issue….home. Without a condusive environment for students once they leave the building how can we expect these students to succeed. I’m very fortunate to have parents that made sure I did my homework (even if they did themselves didn’t understand it), went to Parent-Teacher conferences, knew my teachers, and volunteered at my school – when they could get time off work.
Even though I went to a what was technically a “failing elementary school” I had caring teachers that would work with students but were most met with opposition from parents that didn’t/couldn’t/wouldn’t have their kids stay after-school for the help they needed.
AYP transfers show us a few things:
1) Some schools have better students with more resources – not more effective teachers
2) Some students have a home life that makes being successful at any school a challenge
3) More often than not each student should be looked at individually to see what solution works best.
John
July 21st, 2011
8:58 am
AYP status is the most meaningless part of No Child Left Behind. The vast majority of schools who fail to meet AYP do so because a few too many students in some arbitrary category (students of a certain race, students with a certain disability, etc.) either miss too many days or don’t achieve a certain score on one particular test. It doesn’t matter that the vast majority of students are doing well. AYP should be abolished today since it means nothing.
Dr. Craig Spinks/ Augusta
July 21st, 2011
9:02 am
Let’s support Dr. Barge and Chancellor Davis in their efforts to make our state’s a first-class public school system.
Atlanta Mom
July 21st, 2011
9:11 am
I don’t know what the suburban districts are doing, but here in town there are not a lot of high schools that make AYP. And those that do are practically guaranteed to not make AYP the following year due to transfers in. Not that the transferring students are bad. But the chaos in the schools attempting to accommodate 15-25% more students makes education impossible for the first 6 weeks. And that’s 16% of the school year.
msbssy
July 21st, 2011
9:13 am
Cere, where do you get the idea that the kids attending Arabia are upper middle class, I live across the street from Arabia and know many children that attend and they are deffinitely not upper middle class. All of the upper middle class parents that I know send their kids to private schools such as Woodward.
Atlanta Mom
July 21st, 2011
9:20 am
I do not understand why it takes so long to figure AYP status. The tests are given in April and they are Scantron tests. So test results should be available within a matter of days-literally. Yes, it would be a massive effort, but who doesn’t put in a few extra hours during crunch time? I don’t know how the student’s status is attached to the score ( ESOL, economically disadvantaged etc), but once again, with the wonders of modern computing should make this an easy match. Schools should have AYP status within a month of testing.
yagottabekiddingme
July 21st, 2011
9:20 am
And don’t forget that when a school doesn’t make AYP, and loses students, they then transfer out their worst teachers. Guess where those teachers end up? At the schools that have made AYP, when the principal there requests more teachers to handle the transferred-in students. It’s an ugly shell game, not something that improves education!
Go Panthers!
July 21st, 2011
9:31 am
Q: Do AYP transfers create solutions for kids or new problems for schools?
A: New problems for schools. It’s a shell game, an attempt to shuffle kids from school to school until they either learn how to test adequately, get kicked out or drop out. “Good schools” that subsequently end up losing AYP status still keep their star students because they get pushed closer to the top with each transfer and may gain a few more through transfers, but the new stars will be few and far between. AYP status will eventually return once those transferred in either transfer back out (due to a number of issues like transportation) or drop out.
A great case study to watch around this issue in the next few years is APS’ Grady High. They have grads (plural) going to some of this country’s most competitive colleges, but did not make AYP this past year. Many feel this is because of all of the AYP transfers received from previous years. While some were shocked to learn of the loss of AYP, a few quieter voices are kind of glad they didn’t make it last year as they won’t be getting AYP transfers in this year. This then sets the stage for a tremendous rebound in the next 3 to 5 years. Watch.
NCLB and all of the testing mandates and related measures will fail tremendoulsy and be shown to be one of the biggest farces in EDUCATION history, not just American public education. That is why I never argue the merits of the CRCT versus the ITBS and GGT’s and EOCT’s and so forth. The individual tests do not matter. All of it is a house of cards and needs to be reformed from the foundation on up, so to argue whether to put the King of Hearts on top of the two of spades is futile.
One of two things will result from this quandry – either reform will render one of the most innovative versions of public education that any country has ever seen or it will be the end of traditional public education as we have known it in this country.
atlmom
July 21st, 2011
9:32 am
and really – you can’t increase AYP indefinitely. from what I understand, if you go from 98% pass to 96% pass, and keep going ‘down’ but never go below 90%, you are then a ‘failing’ school. But there are only 100 percentage points, and that’s it. it’s not like a school can increase every year. it’s impossible.
Vince
July 21st, 2011
9:35 am
@ Suavez….and don’t forget to thank, posthumously. Ted Kennedy. Remember NCLB was a bi-partisan effort with Ted Kenendy as its sponsor.
Vince
July 21st, 2011
9:37 am
@ atlmom
Please remember that in three years a school must have everyone pass the CRCT in order to make AYP. So….all special ed kids and those who move into the country in 2012 and 2013 must also be able to pass it.
100 percent.
No exceptions.
Now, that’s realistic!
doh
July 21st, 2011
9:39 am
In all due respect to the good “dr.”
Figures DO lie. My school failed to make AYP because one student out of 800 was counted absent one day instead of being counted as tardy. That miniscule .01% percentage was enough to label my school a failure.
AYP stats are not representative of anything. As you should know, Dr., if a white child fails a test like the CRCT it counts once against a school. If a minority child who gets free and reduced lunch where English is not the first language at home receiving special Ed services fails the school gets hit 5 times. We have created a system where we have classified students as being important and not important. Those 5 white kids equal 1 of the other kids.
Tell me, good Dr., if you think that it is fair that a school should be held responsible for students that it does not even teach? If a student transfers during the year to a behavioral program in another school lets say, when they take the CRCT their scores count with the original school that didn’t even teach the child.
I could go on and on and on but it would be hammering the point home that figures DO lie.
atlmom
July 21st, 2011
9:40 am
Interesting re: grady. Okay, so if my public school doesn’t make AYP and then transfers to another school that also doesn’t make AYP – do I have to leave that school? It seems like an awful lot of transferring. Considering, as it’s been said here before, many of the students are probably from families that are less than stable in the first place.
Dekalb taxpayer
July 21st, 2011
9:41 am
I am not a professional educator, but it seems to me that NCLB was designed to function in a school district made up primarily of successful schools with a few unsuccessful schools. The ability for parents of students in the low-performing schools to request transfers was, I suppose, to put pressure on those low-performing schools to improve. But in a system like Dekalb which has a majority of poor schools and a very few made-AYP schools, the plan seems to only function to destroy the few schools that have managed to overcome their dysfunctional surroundings and succeed. Before long, the Lakesides and the Chamblees will have been destroyed by NCLB. I’m sure that wasn’t the original intent but why hasn’t anyone at the federal level noticed that it has been a result nevertheless?
doh
July 21st, 2011
9:43 am
Oh and another thing…
What is going to happen around the country, let alone the state, when NO public school makes AYP. It is almost impossible to get every child to pass every test. Only Bush and the Republicans could think this one up.
Vince
July 21st, 2011
9:46 am
@ doh
I consider myself an expert on figuring AYP, but I don’t get your point.
A white kid who is on free and reduced lunch and receives special ed counts in three categories..or subgroups.
An Asian kid who receives free and reduced lunch and is learning English also counts in three categories.
A kid from Bhutan who is learning English and get free lunch counts in three categories.
A black student who doesn’t receive special ed or get free lunch is counted in one category.
If that black student receives free lunch and special ed services he is counted in three subgroups.
I’m not sure I followed your argument that some kids are considered less important.
Vince
July 21st, 2011
9:47 am
@ doh
Also, please remember that NCLB was a bi-partisan effort that was sponsored by the late Ted Kennedy (D- Mass)
On the Way Out
July 21st, 2011
9:53 am
Student record data from schools systems (data for AYP reports) was required to be “signed-off” by June 15th. AYP reports had to be certified by school systems by June 30th. All the blame is not with the school systems.
On the Way Out
July 21st, 2011
10:02 am
School systems have to meet NCLB Choice requirements based on the 1st AYP report. Retest calculations do not count toward the initial determination. Smaller systems that have only one school at a specific grade level have to solicit surrounding school systems to take their transfer students. Essentially, students can transfer to another county system, take their funding with them, and their original school “make AYP” after the retests are counted.
Flawed
July 21st, 2011
10:15 am
While the intent is honorable, wouldn’t the process tend to transfer mostly students and/or parents who care about education- leaving proportionately more of those who don’t care at the non-performing schools?
Lynn
July 21st, 2011
10:16 am
I agree that many transfers are the behavior problems from their prior schools. The increase in thefts, drug activity and serious felonies were attributed to transfers the past two years. Not that the receiving school didn’t have it’s own problems, but some transfers even said they moved for better access to items to steal not an education.
alm
July 21st, 2011
10:19 am
I’m waiting for overcrowded schools like Lakeside and Chamblee to fail on purpose so they don’t have to add more trailers.
Do schools get extra bathroom facilities when they are over capacity due to transfers?
Dunwoody Mom
July 21st, 2011
10:21 am
@alm, how do you fail “on purpose”???
alm
July 21st, 2011
10:27 am
I don’t know.
yagottabekiddingme
July 21st, 2011
10:28 am
@Lynn: “some transfers even said they moved for better access to items to steal not an education.” See my blog name for comment.
Cere
July 21st, 2011
10:33 am
How to fail on purpose? You just boycott test day. Attendance is a large part of the formula.
@alm – no – at Lakeside, my child had every other class outside in one of the 21 trailers on campus that year. There were absolutely no extra restrooms available for those students (21 trailers can hold at least 400 students.) They had to find time during class change (4 or 5 minutes) to get all the way in the building, to a locker, to a restroom and to class. Impossible when the hallways are packed with students. The transfers have been a disaster for Lakeside. I have asked for data for a very long time showing how these students perform after the transfer. Or if they even end up graduating from Lakeside or anywhere else. No such data exists. (An aside: Texas tracks each and every student to graduation and holds principals and the superintendent accountable for each student’s whereabouts and success.)
Teacher Reader
July 21st, 2011
10:35 am
I know that myself and other parents of young kids are keeping our eyes on the transfers and are seriously considering other school options or moving because of the over crowded schools caused by these transfers. Transfers aren’t addressing the problems or helping the children. Transfers do not have to happen, but have become the norm in many places, as it’s easier to transfer kids around, than let ineffective people go or get to the root of the issue. One of the problems is that many administrator have little classroom experience, so they themselves have no idea how to fix the problem or what effective teaching looks like, so they go with the easier route.
On the Way Out
July 21st, 2011
10:42 am
This is a FEDERAL mandate. It will not help to contact any state officials.
Go Panthers!
July 21st, 2011
10:47 am
@Flawed
Yes. So all of this imbalance coupled with unrealistic statistical requirements for pass rates on tests (tests that can be proven in parts as racially-biased against some minorities, logically inconsistent with how they phrase problems in disciples like math and regionally incomparable due to local curriculums) is a set up for failure. AYP will never be a national achievement even though it will soon be a national requirement.
This is what makes me so angry about the CRCT testing scandal. If everyone had stayed honest, this fallacy would have been revealed much earlier and NCLB reform and repeal efforts could have been mounted years ago, supported by fail rate statistics. We still have a democracy that is persuaded by sheer, raw numbers. But, the numbers have to be somwhere near accurate to align with proper reform measures, to know where and how to target your most aggresive efforts.
If it’s broke, you fix it; if it LOOKS like it ain’t; you don’t. If the numbers are wrong, you try and fix the wrong thing while the thing that needs to be fixed gets worse. APS is not the only example of this as we will soon see. Ask Texas, the state where all of this crap began.
Lynn
July 21st, 2011
10:47 am
@yagottbkiddingme…. I thought the same thing until I talked to an Administrator who confirmed the story and also pointed out that the number of campus security offices had increased from 1 to 5 to deal with the imported gang problem. As I said, the receiving school wasn’t perfect by any means but the level of issues the transfers brought with them were unprecedented.
Atlanta Mom
July 21st, 2011
10:49 am
@dunwoody Mom,
Encourage students to no show up on testing day.
Atlanta Mom
July 21st, 2011
10:49 am
*not
David Sims
July 21st, 2011
10:50 am
The very notion that transfers improve educational results is laughable. Those transferees coming from the low-performing school are the reason those low-performing schools had low performance. They will carry their inferior learning ability to the higher performing schools, which will reduce those schools’ performance for next year.
Dunwoody Mom
July 21st, 2011
10:53 am
@Atlanta Mom, that would only hurt the child right? If a child needs to take and pass a CRCT to move on to Middle School or High School or Grad test, you certainly do not want to put that in jeopardy by not having your child in school that day.
Dekalb taxpayer
July 21st, 2011
11:00 am
I wouldn’t be at all surprised if some parents transfer their students just for the transportaion stipend.
Todd
July 21st, 2011
11:02 am
This whole No child Left Behind Act is a well intended joke. Most parents are pretty well educated. There was no AYP then. If you take an honest and fair look at this school “Mess”, Having kids to pass this Test, teachers don’t stand a chance of being successful. There are large scale behavior problems that that school can’t handle and that many parents wont handle.
Cere
July 21st, 2011
11:04 am
There are retest dates. The only way for this madness to stop is for people to put their foot (or pencil) down.
Ray
July 21st, 2011
11:05 am
AYP is nothing more than a political stunt created to make schools look bad. Just like the snipe hunt that is the charter school movement – waste of time.
But as long as we can use these topics as bad evaluations for school, we can feel better about being deadbeats who don’t want to pay for real solutions.
The love affair with ‘tax cuts’ in Georgia translates to prioritizing flat screen TV’s ahead of education. Period.
Atlanta Mom
July 21st, 2011
11:06 am
NCLB requires 95% attendance. Generally speaking, I think most schools can identify 6% of the population that is not going to make “the grade” that year. And remember, the trick is to make AYP every other year. Then you never have to take transfers.
David Sims
July 21st, 2011
11:13 am
@Go Panthers! You said that “tests…can be proven in parts as racial biased against some minorities.” That interests me. Please identify which tests you mean and give examples, from each test, that show how it is racially biased and against which minority the bias goes. At present, my opinion is that the test isn’t biased, but, rather, that people of some races are usually smarter than people of others, and as a result the average score of smarter races is higher than the average score of the less intelligent races.
ha
July 21st, 2011
11:29 am
doesnt anyone get it yet NCLB is doing exactly what its suppose too. Every school in the US will be on the NI list… 2014>>>>>100%. its not going to ever happen
NCLB was designed to destroy the public school system so vouchers could be used. do the research on it
Diane Ratich even has said that was the plan by some of the eduhawks
Ray
July 21st, 2011
11:50 am
ha -
Yup.
Miss Scarlett
July 21st, 2011
11:53 am
In my county you can only transfer into schools if the grade level at the receiving school is not at capacity. Each year there is a list that says ABC school can accept so many transfers into any given grade level. For instance, if 3rd grade at a receiving school is full it cannot take transfers. At that same school, if 4th grade is not at capacity, it can take transfers. We have never operated where all transfers must be accepted regardless of overcrowding. How is it our system does it this way and other systems don’t?
atlmom
July 21st, 2011
11:58 am
miss scarlett: apparently, that is illegal.
Paulo977
July 21st, 2011
12:11 pm
Helena
“forcing them to accept “subpar” poor kids who “brought down our successful school” and just couldn’t keep up with their standards — and the words carried an unsubtle whiff of racism/classism”
That is what it is really intended to do…weed out the lower SES kids , in one way or another !!! NCLB was well crafted to maintain the status quo!
BibbTeacher
July 21st, 2011
12:14 pm
The school transfers are a real web of mess. Yes, my school has not AYP for so long that we are part of SIG. However, each year the question of which secondary indicator held us back is there. One year you make the increase in pass rate and all catergories except attendance 94.8%; then special need students are transfered to two schools to consolidate services (we’re one) and that year you end up needing just one more speacial needs child to pass.
The transfer program is a blessing and a nightmare. It’s good to see the parents transfer their brillant angels (trouble makers and do not care students) but the flip side is parents that take the good students out.I was laughing with the principal of another school who said that we really helped them out with AYP last year – 7 of the Jrs that transfered passed all tests with honors, just having those 7 scores back at our school would have made AYP a chinch.
There is no simple answer besides each teacher teaching their heart out and praying that they have a group of students that take advantage of the effort.
Digger
July 21st, 2011
12:29 pm
Big deal, so the school gets even dumber with transfers. Doesn’t the basketball team improve dramatically?
Active in Cherokee
July 21st, 2011
12:39 pm
In talking with some educators here in Cherokee, they are very concerned about AYP over the next couple of years. Some of the schools here (like many in the suburbs) will be looking at Graduation Rates near 100%, 98% passing on testing, and ridiculous attendance from the students – not to mention the ’sub-group’ argument.
These percentages can only go so high – once you start hitting 98-100% of passing/graduation not even the Walton/Riverwood/Northview’s of the world will be able to make AYP every year. That shows a broken system of evaulation, not a failing school. When this happens where will students ‘transfer’?
BibbTeacher
July 21st, 2011
12:45 pm
Aside: Our department is having lunch while we are having a pre-school work day (don’t worry, we are not on the payroll and using my personal laptop). The registrar dropped in a second ago and we were laughing at the reasons that parents bring their students back. Here’s a quick list of why parents bring their students back the the failing school:
1) They are not trying to help. The student is failing their classes because of not doing homework; too many absences (I had a student return just before the end of the year they had 27 absences in my class before they transfered and 32 absences at the other school).
2) They (the receiving school) also enforce the dress code. Their child can’t wear gang colors (it’s all they have 20 red, blue, or black outfits?)
3) The administration is crazy – the child only cursed out a teacher, got into a few fights, keeps being accused of distrupting class.
btc
July 21st, 2011
1:21 pm
Anyone know when the 2011 AYP results will be published on GADOE or AJC?
On the Way Out
July 21st, 2011
1:35 pm
after 2:00 PM today
Maureen Downey
July 21st, 2011
1:36 pm
@btc: Later this afternoon.
Go Panthers!
July 21st, 2011
1:59 pm
@ Davis Sims – http://fairtest.org/racial-bias-built-tests
Thank you for your question and your opinion. I’m very happy to offer scientific proof to support my assertion. But, if that is all that you got out of everything that I said, you might be indicative of the biggest part of this problem, bigger than any flawed test or any student or parent from any background.
And, I didn’t say “racial biased;” I said “racially-biased.”
***
@ Active in Cherokee – Exactly to your following comment:
“These percentages can only go so high – once you start hitting 98-100% of passing/graduation not even the Walton/Riverwood/Northview’s of the world will be able to make AYP every year. That shows a broken system of evaulation, not a failing school. When this happens where will students ‘transfer’?”
When the realization hits that this is everybody’s problem, that is when this thing will start to change through legislation. Unfortunately, at-risk schools and students will have spent nearly a decade and a half in turmoil before the reform process even gets started.
btc
July 21st, 2011
2:18 pm
@On and Maureen: Thanks!
Maureen Downey
July 21st, 2011
2:24 pm
@BTC
Results just released. See new blog
atlmom
July 21st, 2011
2:37 pm
go panthers: um,isn’t legislation how we got here in the first place? well meaning non educators?
Observation
July 21st, 2011
3:13 pm
@David Sims, 11:13 am (and also expressed in other posts on other blogs): “My opinion is that the test isn’t biased, but, rather, that people of some races are usually smarter than people of others, and as a result the average score of smarter races is higher than the average score of the less intelligent races.”
This sounds like a basic definition of racism to me!
DeKalb parent
July 21st, 2011
4:34 pm
Well Chamblee Charter High School failed to make AYP but is still a receiving school. This school has shouldered the burden of AYP transfer students EVERY year while other schools were magically exempted. DCSS administration has such contempt for this school that they continued to pack the school with extra students even while their own engineers drafted reports showing the school crumbling, unsafe and over crowded. This year half the school will be demolished and thus the school only has seats for about 600 students but has a student population of approximately 1500 students. This means that the school is overcapacity by 900 students yet DCSS insists on using the school as a receiving school. A monster trailer park has been created on the only athletic field at the school. More trailers are in the parking lot.
Perhaps the AJC and some of the local media should visit.
Grady Glass Walls
July 21st, 2011
4:35 pm
The APS teacher who graduated from Grady HS and who presented this year’s APS Vals and Sals speech gave real insight into Grady. Grady may have students who go to elite schools, but if you are black you better be careful. At Grady, there is a glass wall between the races that has been there for years. I understand that the parents of children attending the elite schools shored that racial glass wall up during APS’ high school transformation.
So if you are black and poor, bypass Grady in favor of North Atlanta. Otherwise, you might attend a school that is excellent for a chosen few only to find that you end up in the all black, under-resourced, poorly staffed classes. You likely would have fared much better at Carver or Mayes.
Grady parents need to get over themselves. Other APS high schools graduate all black students headed to elite schools & not primarily children from white or affluent homes (which would have made it there no matter where they attended school because of strong parenting and other cultural influences). Your attitude starts early when you look at the previous posters fearful response that your privileged children might have NCLB transfers this year. If your kids are so smart and your schools are that great, maybe you should learn to share?!
Disgruntled Employee
July 21st, 2011
5:53 pm
I taught in a district that actually tracked the numbers. In Florida I taught at an inner city high school that lost students each year to transfer options. The students who left our school actually did WORSE when they went to suburbia. Their scores dropped. Many of your best teachers are teaching in schools that do not make AYP and so are many of your worst but that applies to all schools.
Nikole
July 21st, 2011
6:58 pm
@ msbssy—-If you live across the street from Arabia Mtn, you are living in a middle class neighborhood. The statement was that the students are upper/middle, meaning upper AND middle class students. The main point being, ARABIA NEEDS TRAILERS JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER HIGH SCHOOL THAT MAKES AYP.
Carl
July 21st, 2011
7:42 pm
Everyone seems to be being very politically correct about this whole thing. Nobody seems willing to just come out and admit that there are some students who just aren’t going to contribute and nobody wants those kids in their schools. Theoretically all types of kids are capable of learning; realistically, when you look at a case by case scenario, that isn’t how the world works.
How does the transfer rule help anything in systems where over half the schools fail to meet AYP?
Cere
July 21st, 2011
8:16 pm
@DavidSims – I never believed tests could be biased either, but I have told the story of the time I watched as my 5 year old took some psychological/IQ tests. I was floored as the doctor read the questions out loud and then asked my daughter to point to the corresponding picture (poorly drawn pictures, I might add). She asks questions like, “point to the hinge”, “point to the drill” (my daughter got this one right as she had seen her dad with his drill out often) and “point to the luggage”, to which I raised a brow and whispered, “that’s not the word we use for it”… (we use “suitcases”). But the doctor said that these tests come out of Harvard and they use New England vocabulary – the testers are not allowed to substitute at all. So, you see, if a child is from a 2 parent home, where they have been introduced to hinges and drills and refer to their travel bags as “luggage”, they will score a very high IQ.
yagottabekiddingme
July 21st, 2011
8:27 pm
@Grady Glass Walls…I have volunteered for 15 hours a week at Grady for the last two years in the College Center…believe me when I say that Grady’s grads who happen to be black are attending (and recruited by) the best post-secondary institutions in the country. Every year, we have high achieving black (and white) students who strive and overcome, and are recognized by admission at this nation’s most elite schools—UPenn, Stanford, Brown, Cornell, Emory, etc etc etc. Don’t slam Grady. It WORKS!
DeKalb mom
July 21st, 2011
8:30 pm
Carl, the transfer rule doesn’t help any of the students in those areas, including those in the receiving and sending schools. In Dekalb, many of the students just fail in another location.
Parents have begged DeKalb administration for years to create a super academy where the transfer students who really want a solid education can go. Dekalb should use its millions of Title I money to hire the best teachers, use their grants for math and science labs, have free tutoring and an extended school day, enforce discipline and get the students out of trailers. But Dekalb has steadfastly refused to change the status quo and now the last high performing schools are sinking.
The current administration and BOE have succeeding in being tagged as a school system that is now worse than Clayton. Kudos to Clayton county. Jeers to DeKalb.
APS - Educational Disparity
July 21st, 2011
8:36 pm
@yagottabekidding, the Westmoreland speech notes that Grady has been racially segregated for years. Why?
Outside of the famed (and deservedly so) Communications program that you have at Grady, your numbers from last year indicate that the students who aren’t in that program may get no better of an education than other APS high schools.
Grady also did not make AYP in the sub-groups of black and economically disadvantaged. Did your school attempt to help those students or did it continue to funnel the best teachers and resources to the students in your magnet program so that you can brag about all of your top students going to elite schools?
The real test of a high quality school is one that can move all students up a level, not just keep the high performing students above the crowd.
Atlanta mom
July 21st, 2011
10:32 pm
Grady did not make AYP in 2010 because they had made AYP the two previous years, and thus received students who were not up to Grady standards. Typically it takes Grady 2 years to assimilate students and get them on track.
Every teacher at Grady offers either morning or after school tutoring. Every single one.
yagottabekiddingme
July 22nd, 2011
8:29 am
@APS: All I can speak to is the quality of the students who use the College Center as a resource. And while it’s true that our top students have ended up at elite schools (just like top students at all public and private schools), our very good students who carry strong B gpas or better and profess a desire to attend college are recruited by competitive colleges all over the country.
Grady just won a national award from The College Board for creating a college-going culture. Not every student wants to, or does, take advantage of the resources available to them. That’s their choice. But I’m proud to say the Grady offers MORE THAN other APS schools in terms of college planning and the results speak for themselves. Grady sends students to all types of post-secondary schools, the recruiters come back to Grady year after year. I guess there’s something good going on!
APS Parent #2
July 22nd, 2011
8:49 am
Taking nothing away from Grady students, I think the point is that the top students in all APS high schools and not just Grady are heavily recruited be elite colleges.
Top students have themselves earned their scholarships through their hard work and efforts. All APS schools have the framework in place to help students find scholarship opportunities. I am sure your parents’ college center is great and your kids have an easier road than the rest of Atlanta, but please remember that without the students there are no scholarships.
This should be about the kids.
Go Panthers!
July 22nd, 2011
9:43 am
@ yagottabekiddingme:
Amen!:-) Please talk about the black, single-parented, nationally-ranked speech and debate Posse scholar. She’s like top 5 in the nation in her division. Please talk about the black, ROTC student headed to West Point, choosing to serve his country in a time of war over going to college to frat parties and football games. Please talk about the fact the entire 4th WARD is IN Grady’s zone and North Atlanta has no government-subsidized impoverished neighborhood within their actual school zone (Morosgo does not count). Was a recent North Atlanta grad, a school that formerly housed an arts magnet, voted off of SYTYCD last night? And, please talk about the fact that people send their kids to Buckhead for the “prestigous” zip code, while inner-inner city Grady catches all of the fade about being “elitist.”
Never mind. I just did it.
@Atlanta mom:
“Typically it takes Grady 2 years to assimilate students and get them on track.
Every teacher at Grady offers either morning or after school tutoring. Every single one.”
ABSOLUTELY! And, thank you so much for making that point.
Grady is five blocks away from the projects and still gets the job done for any child who shows up to do the work!
@Grady Glass Walls:
As a graduate of one of the Buckhead schools and a former Grady parent, I can, without a doubt, say that your unprovoked attack is nothing but sour grapes and I am totally offended that you would bring that mess into this discussion. It is exactly that type of class-based LIE that got APS into this situation in the first place.
I am very familiar with both environments and have no problems telling you that you are, basically, just hating. Your comments aren’t backed by any proof and really have nothing to do with the question Maureen asked. Can overwhelming numbers of students who transfer to North Atlanta from a non-AYP APS school pass the required tests as a direct result of the transfer? Please provide examples for your answer to THIS QUESTION to support your claim. Because, if you take a look above, we have all provided proof that your claims regarding Grady are false.
Henry W. Grady High School is not perfect, but I am so sick of the Grady bashing. I brought up the fact that they didn’t make AYP to point out how ineffective the NCLB transfer option is and what it does to formerly AYP-compliant schools. These problems are nationwide, not just systemwide. But, in the grand scheme of things, Grady still gets the job done better than most. I know teenaged mothers from the ghetto who graduated from that Communications magnet as competent writers. PLEASE stop hating on that for no reason other than you’re mad at CINS, Step Up or Step Down and the ‘effin Junior League!
And, in terms of sharing? It is kind of hard to share with people who unfairly attack and mischaracterize your school’s success and its students and then want you to help them out. It’d be great if we could all work together. That is the ideal. But, the things that you said above are wrong and mean, and it’s hard to SHARE with a PARENT who is being wrong and mean about other people’s children and their publicly-funded education for no good reason at all.
Warrior Woman
July 22nd, 2011
9:52 am
@Ernest – There is no valid reason to restrict AYP transfers to members of the failing subgroup that haven’t historically done well in their home school. Sometimes the environment of the “failing” school is not the best for a student, so even if they haven’t failed, they also haven’t achieved at their fullest.
For strong students in failing schools, it’s a matter of resource allocation. Several years ago, we took the AYP transfer option from our Cobb County middle school, which “failed” AYP because of English-language learners. IF the class offerings had stayed the same from 6th grade to 7th, we would have stayed. However, the school improvement plan to meet AYP involved cutting advanced content and gifted classes to the minimum and shifting resources to English language learners. It is unfair to deny opportunities to bright students that they would have had at any Cobb middle school that met AYP. We transferred to ensure our children’s opportunities, as did at least half of the gifted students from the 6th grade.
Did that hurt the sending school? Certainly. Do I care? No. As a parent, my child’s education comes first.
Go Panthers!
July 22nd, 2011
10:30 am
@ atlmom:
“go panthers: um,isn’t legislation how we got here in the first place? well meaning non educators?”
Yes. Those legislators are elected by the people to pass laws for the people. If we have proof now that NCLB does not work for large numbers of constituents, we are all empowered to vote in educated, well-meaning reps who can reform or repeal it. Right?
Miss Scarlett
July 22nd, 2011
11:59 am
This is a correction to my post from yesterday. The conditions I posted for transferring to another school are based on Georgia HB 251 and SB 10. Those conditions do not apply for my AYP transfers. My mistake.
Digger
July 22nd, 2011
12:52 pm
I’m sure there is no better feeling for a teacher than seeing 4 or 5 new students at the door, grabbing their crotches and looking around for what they can steal.
hardworkingteacher
July 23rd, 2011
5:45 pm
Those schools receiving transfers from failing schools are overcrowded beyond belief! What moron decided that?! So although you are an effective school that meet AYP, instead of way to go and a pat on the back, you are now told to bend over and grab your ankles!
Joyce
July 23rd, 2011
8:20 pm
Well here we are again talking about failing schools and AYP. What has the State Department done to correct this issue. I remember when every teacher, especially beginning teachers had to go through 3 evaluations a year and then the Final evaluation (end of the year) and veteran teachers had to have 3 and do the same thing. If every concept had been followed, where teachers would get the help they needed to make them successful things would not be likte this today. NO THIS WAS NOT DONE. THE MOLDING OF YOUNG TEACHERS INTO GREAT TEACHERS. You see the administrators, who sometimes, and not all administrators, thought they were God and some still do, The schools are in a mess because teachers are afraid to take back there classrooms. They are afraid of being fired. I remember in the early 70’s teacher organizations such as GAE were very strong advocates for teachers. I do not believe this is true to day. You see PAGE was and organization which was formed by school administrator, and I don’t think they will go the 100 yards either from what I have been told by colleagues from other counties. There is a new organization (1990’s probably) which represents teachers only, which makes it an even playing field and it is called MACE, I believe. Well, am getting off track. How can we make our schools successful again in Georgia. It is very simple. Hire teachers who have a love for teaching who can instill into students the meaning of do unto others as you would have them do unto you. That’s right old values. When the family values started to go to the waste side the whole state and especially education start to deteriate. Many parents do not value education which is sad. Where are the role models for children who instill in them an aspiration to success and become successful.
Throw away all this testing and AYP- I call it the #1 fund raisers for the companies who produce the test and the testing compnay who grades each test. DO ANY OF YOU KNOW HOW MUCH IT COST THE STATE OF GEORGIA AND YOUR SYSTEM FOR THIS TO HAPPEN. Well. inorder to have one question on these standardized test, it cost $5,000. (five thousand dollars per question) This is what I have been told by a testing expert from Georgia. Why not have better science labs, etc. for the children to learn. The testing situation has really gotten out of hand. I had rather a child be taught in school on subject matter than for a teacher to spend endless hours teaching a child how to take a test. I believe in education we are doing more harm to children in these testing situation. READ SOME OF THE CHILD DEVELOPMENT SPECIALISTS FROM THE 1960′’s 70’s 80’s. You will see what education should be about for our children to develop into model educated citizens. Even if a child does not have a family who values education, one instrumental teacher in his/her life could change the child’s life forever. You see teaching is not all that bad, if you take control of your classroom through respect for each other. And, hire teachers who really love teaching. All the on-line degrees need to stop, Teachers need to learn from the grassroots up not in groups who take classes one weekend out of each month and at the end of the year they have a Specialist Degree or Doctorate of Education.(Only 12 weekends of Classroom Instruction) The is awful. Where were the local private colleges and State Universities when all this was going on. Where were the Board of Regents. Well someone woke up the sleeping gaints and things have changed thank God. You may think I am awful for attacking on-line course or the weekend classes from these school (diploma mills), But, getting a degree from a Private Institution or State University System is training you to be a teacher.
God Bless the teachers who still adovcate for better schools. You see we have had an influx of administrators, who in my opinion do not know beans about operating a school or school system. They got a quick degree and the Good of Buddy System went into play. They have not had the training they need to be an administrator. Their just there to make a quick buck, and believe me they make BIG QUICK BUCKS.. Why not say… if you want to be an administrator, you will make what’s on the state pay scale for teachers with only a $5,000. supplement. See how many of them would hit the door running.
APS Parent #2
July 24th, 2011
12:14 am
@Joyce. You are right. There is a big difference between testing and learning. They are not interchangeable. With testing, you can regurgitate blocks of information. With learning, you may not know all of the blocks of information, but you will always know how to ask the questions to find the information you need to answer any question.
I’ll take learning any day over testing.
Local School Leader
July 25th, 2011
11:39 am
The question of more efficacy via the transfer process is appropriate and challenging. The most infamous of conversations evolve around the impact of a malnourished home life that fails to reinforce or support teaching and learning in the home. Until we address this question, we will continue to fail children. Schools should not be the victim of communities…Some think the opposite… I am certain that what one brings from home weighs heavily on their performance in school.