New study finds bonus pay “had no positive effects on student achievement at any grade level”
A new RAND study released today of a school bonus programs in New York found that teacher incentive pay did not lead to improved student performance.
This study resembles one released 10 months ago by the National Center on Performance Incentives at Vanderbilt University. In that study, researchers reviewed test scores of 300 middle school math teachers who agreed to participate in a three-year randomized experiment testing the belief that teachers will work harder and produce greater student gains if they are rewarded for it. The study found that bonus pay did not improve student outcomes.
The RAND findings that financial incentives for teachers in New York also failed to improve student achievement will likely fuel the growing resistance to Race to the Top, which encourages pay for performance programs.
These studies contradict the assumption that dangling rewards will make teachers strive to advance their students. One suggestion why performance pay doesn’t produce higher student achievement is that teachers are already working as hard as they can. Another is that the rewards being dangled are not large enough to entice teachers.
According to the release on the study:
A New York City program designed to improve student performance through school-based financial incentives for teachers did not improve student achievement, most likely because it did not change teacher behavior and the conditions needed to motivate staff were not achieved, according to a RAND Corporation study issued today.
From 2007 to 2010, nearly 200 high-needs New York City public schools participated in the Schoolwide Performance Bonus Program. The study, commissioned by the New York City Department of Education and the United Federation of Teachers and funded by the New York City Fund for Public Schools and National Center on Performance Initiatives, is the most comprehensive study on the city’s performance pay program.
Implemented for the first time in the 2007–2008 school year, this three-year program provided financial rewards based on school-level performance to educators in high-needs elementary, middle, and high schools. Schools enrolled in the program could choose to opt out.
Using independent analysis of test scores, interviews with school administrators, teachers, and other personnel, and teacher and school staff surveys, researchers say the study provides critical insight into the program’s design and its implementation.
“Bonuses alone have not proven to be the answer to bettering student achievement,” said Julie Marsh, the study’s lead author. “Educators said bonuses are desirable, but they also said they did not change how they perform their job because of bonuses. Some didn’t understand how the program worked, while others did not perceive the bonus as having tremendous value. Still others felt the bonus criteria relied too heavily on test scores. We believe these factors may have actually weakened the motivational effects of the bonus program.”
The New York City Department of Education and the United Federation of Teachers, an affiliate of the American Federation of Teachers, jointly implemented the Schoolwide Performance Bonus Program for the first time during the 2007-2008 school year. Using a random sample of the city’s high-needs public schools, the program lasted for three academic years, with the goal of improving student performance through school-based financial incentives paid to teachers.
Researchers from RAND Education and the National Center on Performance Initiatives at Vanderbilt University examined student test scores and administrative data, conducted teacher, school staff, and administrator surveys, and interviewed school administrators, staff members, program sponsors, and union and district officials.
The researchers found that the program did not improve student achievement or affect teachers’ reported behaviors or attitudes, perhaps in part because conditions needed to motivate staff were not achieved and because of the high level of accountability already present for participating and non-participating schools.”
Among the key findings:
–Overall, the program had no positive effects on student achievement at any grade level. Researcher analysis of student achievement on the state’s accountability tests found no positive effects overall for students attending elementary, middle or K-8 schools in years one through three, and for high schools students during the first two years of the program.
–The program did not lead to improvements on elementary, middle and high school progress report scores. The study found no statistically significant differences between scores of Schoolwide Performance Bonus Program treatment and control schools and between schools that participated in Schoolwide Performance Bonus Program each year (regardless of random assignment) and other eligible schools.
–Researchers found no differences between the reported teaching practices, effort and attitudes of teachers in treatment schools and those of the control group.
–Several key conditions that theory suggests are necessary for performance-based incentive programs to change behaviors (e.g., understanding, buy-in for the bonus criteria, perceived value of bonus, perceived fairness) did not take root in all schools.
–Other accountability incentives — such as receiving a high progress report grade or achieving adequate yearly progress targets — and intrinsic motivation were deemed by many teachers as more salient than financial rewards.
Researchers also found that a majority of the schools disseminated the bonuses equally among staff, despite program guidelines granting school committees the flexibility to distribute the bonus shares as they deemed fit.
“Other research and theory suggests that for bonus programs to be effective in improving student performance, there must be a high level of understanding of the program and bonus criteria, educators must have ‘buy-in,’ and they need to view bonuses as large enough to motivate extra effort, ” said Marsh, adjunct researcher at RAND and visiting associate professor at the University of Southern California. “These characteristics were lacking in many schools participating in the New York City program, and were a key reason why some educators said the program did not influence them to change their behavior.”
The research was conducted by RAND Education, a unit of the RAND Corporation, and National Center on Performance Initiatives partners at Vanderbilt University. Funding to carry out the work was provided by the New York City Fund for Public Schools and National Center on Performance Initiatives.
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
Tell us what you think about the site
Customer Care »
Vacation stops, manage subscriptions and more
AJC Services
Sections
Other Editions
Visitor Agreement | Privacy Statement
© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
157 comments Add your comment
A Teacher Like Me
July 18th, 2011
11:49 am
Why do people like to keep pointing to other professions that work on commission or “results”? This is exactly what drove Wall Street companies to fudge profit margins and grab extra bonuses. Yeah, there was no cheating going on in those situations either right? Teachers aren’t saying that accountability needs to go away. I think that there should be. However, make it reasonable. If all children do not come to school with the same skill set, then why do we think they will all be at the same place by the third grade?
msbaker111
July 18th, 2011
11:54 am
@Paddy O:
Seriously? The only way that would even make sense is if the DOE could also come up with a foolproof way to ensure that 100% of the students in the teacher’s class are performing on grade level (in every subject) at the beginning of the school year, all are native English speakers, all have parental support, and not one of them qualifies for special education services. Not going to happen.
NewMinority
July 18th, 2011
11:56 am
You are right. Bonus pay to Goldman Sachs (banker bailout) had no impact whatsoever in digging the U.S. out of its sovereign debt hole. The bank was even found guilty of FRAUD regarding sub-prime mortgage loans, a trigger to the current financial meltdown. So let’s tell the President and Congress, NO MORE BORROWING FROM CORRUPT BANKS! Let’s recover those stolen BONUS PAYCHECKS, and use that to pay down some of our usurious interest rates.
sloboffthestreet
July 18th, 2011
11:58 am
Dear I love,,,, You’re whining again,,, I hope I’ve made you proud msbaker111. I’ll ask my mommy if I can bring you a piece of fruit tomorrow. Do you like prunes???
RJ
July 18th, 2011
12:03 pm
“Paying extra to 2nd grade teachers because they have ‘earned” a masters degree doesn’nt make much sense either. ”
I’m amazed at how so many people feel that teacher’s don’t deserve to make a decent wage. If teacher’s can’t be rewarded with a little extra money for getting another degree, how are they supposed to ever increase their salary? Additionally, not every teacher “earned” their degree from on online diploma mill. I drove to Athens for two years “earning” my advanced degree. Every dime came out of my pocket. The information I learned was extremely beneficial to my students.
Pay for performance will never garner the results that politicians think it will. As many have already stated, it begins with parents.
lovestoteach
July 18th, 2011
12:19 pm
When teacher evaluations in Georgia are tied to student achievement, what happens to the teachers who don’t have standardized test scores to show to the administration? What about Art, PE, Gifted, EIP, ESOL, etc? I teach 3rd grade, a benchmark year according to CRCT and the state DOE. I feel very confident in my teaching ability as well as the abilities of my students, to be successful on the test. But what if I wanted to teach an inclusion class with students who may have great difficulty passing the CRCT? What about the SPED teachers who work wonders to bring students to higher levels, just not high enough according to the powers that be? And while I appreciate the work that all teachers do, how will you evaluate the PE teacher who doesn’t have a standardized test to give? There are lots of questions that need to be answered before we jump onto the RTTT money train. And I am afraid that that is the only reason we are doing it, for the money which will flow into those districts.
msbaker111
July 18th, 2011
12:26 pm
Here is the overview of “Drive” that I posted earlier. I’m interested in what other sentient people here think about it.
@Slob:
I would be proud (and possibly less constipated) if you would do your homework and consult some credible sources on these issues so that you can engage higher level thinking skills and (with a little luck) arrive at an informed opinion that is worthy of contributing here for reasons other than antagonizing professionals.
msbaker111
July 18th, 2011
12:29 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc&feature=youtube_gdata_player
I love teaching. I hate what it is becoming...
July 18th, 2011
12:40 pm
Slob,
“Dear I love,,,, You’re whining again,,, ”
No, I am pointing out the fallacy of your comment. Nothing more.
RJ
July 18th, 2011
12:59 pm
@lovestoteach, I am one of those non-core teachers and I agree. I am concerned with how I will be evaluated. When I asked this question in a faculty meeting, my principal had no answers.
Nikole
July 18th, 2011
1:24 pm
A couple of thoughts
1. I learned more about teaching in my masters program at Mercer than my undergraduate years, which was heavy in philosophy and history of teaching.
2. Most merit pay studies are always bonuses. GA is the only state I have heard of trying to tie your base pay into merit pay.
3. Most studies in merit pay show that teachers are not teaching any “harder”. They do the very best they can, and try to address the needs of their present students. One year, a teacher is labeled as effective and given the bonus, and the next, they are labeled a failure. Never mind that they did not change instructional methods.
4. The studies also suggested that we teachers, should just shut up and accept the merit pay system, because the only way to show effectiveness is to say did this particular group of students show progress, and 99% of the time, the answer is yes. We’d all be eligible for merit pay. But knowing the state of GA, they would end the program the following year, b/c they don’t have the money to pay out.
(I did extensive research on merit pay last fall for a research class)
sloboffthestreet
July 18th, 2011
1:43 pm
msbaker111, Please tell me where I can find these “Credible Sources” you speak of? Also, I can only wish someday to become a professional with skills associated with what your kind refers to as Higher Level Thinking. Perhaps you will become “Highly Effective” when you get over yourself. Until then I prefer to continue dragging my knuckles. I see you have been using my invention the wheel and haven’t been able to improve it even once so again it is up for debate who possesses the Higher Level of Thinking. The only thing I have seen an educator invent is rhetoric. Are you upset that Georgia public education was dead last in 2001. Do you feel this information did not come from a Credible Source? Speaking of this one subject, where did Georgia land in the rankings this year? How about the cut score for the CRCT. It being an F to MEET THE STANDARD, is this not from a Credible Source. Are you upset that many teachers here in the state are not at all effective? Do you disagree with the 16% figure in refrence to the D.C educators? Are you upset that there are “PROFESSIONALS” who continue to fail Georgia’s children year after year without any thought given to the end result or consequence? In my best little cutesy voice {Sorry, I just couldn’t resist.} I say, Feed em prunes! Double for you.
msbaker111
July 18th, 2011
2:07 pm
Never one to miss out on a teachable moment, I will be glad educate you. First, have you heard of Bloom’s Taxonomy? This is where you will find a definition for “higher order thinking skills.” According to Bloom’s there are six levels of cognition from recall to evaluation (simplest to most complex). As for some credible sources, try looking at the top of this page. As for the rankings you refer to, I would be glad to discuss these if you would kindly tell me where you found your information (APA style not necessary).
I would have loved to have you as a student. I bet your teachers had lots of fun.
catch 22
July 18th, 2011
3:07 pm
all this talk of pay for performance…. HA….
GA is suppose to give first year science and math teachers the salary on step 3 (which i think is 5 years experience), but they made it an unfunded manidate and districts dont give the teachers what they should earn
remember the National Board Cert Teacher??? think how that ended? u really think its gonna be the teacher that gets “performance pay”
Maybe some of the ppl like to bash teachers will understand this analogy (trying to make it so rednecks can understand)
Students are like cars/trucks. Kids are different makes, different models, some being a Rolls Royce (lots of culture and background), Ford/chevy (middle of the road but dependable and a hard worker), some being a Yugo (limited range and breaks down often).
now dont get all racial about this cause each car maker has many different colors
the teacher gets all these different makes and models in front of them; like i said before one kid could be a raced prepped nascar and another a dodge cummins diesel truck; both great vechiles but u have to get them to finish the race at the very same time. doing the same exact things. getting the same exact gas mileage
hopefully, u understand now what a teacher is faced with every single day
sloboffthestreet
July 18th, 2011
3:27 pm
msbaker111, 2001 rankings http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_baeo_t1.htm
As to CRCT cut score. Straight from the horses mouth. Joe Blessing, GaDOE.
Teachers inventing rhetoric, HHMMM, Please look above at almost any post here.
16% of DC teachers Highly Effective http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dc-schools-insider/post/more-than-200-dc-teachers-fired/2011/07/15/gIQADnTLGI_blog.html
As to Bloom, Knowing, Feeling and Doing are the three skills needed to perform. The first, knowing is the one that seems to be missing in education. When you don’t KNOW the only FEELING it creates is failure. In turn it often becomes impossible to DO anything productive in society when all you feel is failure and lack the basic knowledge to look after yourself and make proper choices and decisions. Bloom considered his handbook to be one of the most widely cited but least read books in American Education. It pleases me that you are willing to educate me. Thanks for the help. I started school as a 1st grader in 1961. They didn’t have pre-K and K back in the day. I’m not certain the numbers would work out as you being available to be my teacher at that time but I do remember always looking forward to going to school. It was great fun then. What happened? You’ve just been upgraded on the fruit plan from prunes to PLUOTS. They don’t shine up like an apple but they shure are good!
Patricia
July 18th, 2011
4:55 pm
This did not surprise me in the least. Educating children is not like working in a factory as my mother did or working on commission in a dress shop when I was young or on Wall Street or selling cars. As long as non-educators who have never attempted to walk in the shoes of real teachers continue to believe education will get better if we just run it as a business, then we are going to continue to be in this mess we are currently faced with.
I am so tired of this focus on bad teachers who are in the minority, and I do mean in the minority. There are folks who just don’t do well in all kinds of jobs whether it be police officers, politicians, doctors, car mechanics, etc. Teachers need to be given the power to do their jobs. Administrators need to remember they are in their jobs to help make my job easier and more productive.
Teachers who work at becoming more proficient at their jobs should receive incentives and respect. I can tell you right now I have YET in my past twelve years here in Georgia attended ANY professional learning opportunity put on by school districts that impacted my ability to be a better teacher. The reason for this was simple. Everything was focused on testing, or lesson plans written in interesting formats, things that must be posted on our classroom walls, using computers to view test driven data, and so on and so on and so on!! Now, I have on my own taken college classes, joined in summer institutes, become a National Board Certified Teacher, read professional magazines from organizations such as NCTM, IRA, TESOL to gain more insights into appropriate strategies or activities to develop student learning, etc. I did receive a brief incentive for the NBCT, but that was gone in a hurry!
I would not want to be a child in school today. It just makes me furious because people want to pay teachers because of scores on a test like the CRCT. As we know all classes are NOT equal, all parents are not equal, and all teachers are not equal. Most importantly students simply do not learn or behave in the same way. I am just so angry about all of this nonsense. Children are not assembly lines.
msbaker111
July 18th, 2011
5:37 pm
@Slob:
Your link to the graduation rate report contained no identifying information, but I was able to locate it. I also found this revision where the author explained a few errors he made in calculating these rates. The study was conducted by a fellow for a conservative think tank in favor of school vouchers.
http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_baeo.htm#04
This article shows why it is impossible to compare states in terms of graduation rate.
http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/_wsj-politics.htm
I referred to Bloom’s cognitive domain only, but thank you for sharing your awareness of the affective and psychomotor domains as well. Here’s a revised taxonomy for you since it has change a little in recent years. Please note the examples of practical application (as opposed to the rhetorical whining you mentioned).
http://sph.washington.edu/practicum/Revised%20Bloom’s%20Taxonomy%20of%20Cognitive%20Levels.doc
No, I am sad to say I could not have been your teacher. I bet the public classroom landscape would be quite alien to you today if you started school in 1961. However, I hope that like my students, you were taught to examine the source of information before accepting it at face value. A conservative think tank certainly has an agenda, correct? We have to be careful to discern when politics and the potential to earn a profit are behind statistics that at first glance appear to be objective. But I suppose it is easier to just point fingers and dismiss someone’s professional experience as whining. I am curious, though. When was the last time you were in a public classroom? Have you ever taught?
msbaker111
July 18th, 2011
5:40 pm
*changed*
catlady
July 18th, 2011
5:52 pm
Perhaps we should just pay the kids. They have nothing to loose (virtually no one is held back on the basis of the test unless parents demand it). No big surprise on these findings. Now if you were making widgets, paying the widget makers increased money for every perfect widget produced would work. However, as pointed out so many times, kids are NOT widgets.
So many great proposals from our “leaders” that are nothing but hogwash. The Texas miracle, Reading First, “Must pass” tests, Teacher pay according to student test results. All hogwash, via folks like Michelle Rhee, Arne Duncan, George Bush, Bev Hall. And, even though teachers make their concerns known, they are ignored. HOW MUCH MONEY WILL WE WASTE?
Theresa
July 18th, 2011
6:06 pm
Sad to say, performance-based pay/value-added measurement/performance bonuses, which worked so well on Wall Street, isn’t going anywhere, despite studies (and first-hand eyeball experience) to show it doesn’t work in this context. That’s the New Accountability, otherwise known as Race to the Top.
Back to the Fifties
July 18th, 2011
6:20 pm
@sloboffthestreet: Good Grief, you say you are your child’s first teacher. Are you saying that we should pay you to raise your children? Parent responsibility includes making sure your child is a well rounded person. Those children who succeed are the ones whose parents are involved and enriching them beyond what they get in the classroom. Perhaps since you are retired you should sit in on some of your kid’s classes and see what teaching in the classroom really entails. It would be an eye opener!
it's about time
July 18th, 2011
6:37 pm
@ Logic: Teachers didn’t produce the children. We teach the children. Their parents are responsible for ensuring that they come to school prepared to learn. School is not a daycare, and I am so sick of people blaming teachers and excusing parents for the lack of parenting. Childbirth is a choice. There are many options available to prevent pregnancy. When irresponsible women choose to have babies, they must be responsible enough to take care of them. They need to discipline themselves and forego the clubs, the nail shops, and the beauty supplies for the latest in hair weave colors and take care of their children. Start shopping for school supplies.
sloboffthestreet
July 18th, 2011
6:47 pm
msbaker111, I am the father of an 11 and 7 year old. Also a 24 year old who is entering her 4th year of teaching elementary education. The last time I was in a public classroom was 5/27/11. I went to school to teach with a minor in music performance. I chose the latter and then moved on to self employment. It all worked out very well.
No matter what your political flavor, the numbers used to calculate rankings applied equally for each state. Why don’t you find some numbers that have been published that show how well Georgia public schools have performed? Like you, I too am curious. Perhaps you would like to use GaDOE grad rates for this year. I don’t think they are looking to give out any vouchers. The all white middle class county I reside in graduated 69% this year. The state average for the year was 73%. These are GaDOE numbers by the way. Perhaps a real measure would be the SAT. It is sad that % of senior participation is not calculated into the scoring model. No one has any interest in doing such a thing either. If a system decides they only want their top 10% to take the test this is never put out for the public to plainly see. Yes the numbers can lie.
Back to Bloom, let’s start at the beginning. Knowledge. Again I will state that is what is missing. Basic Knowledge. Basic Feeling, Basic Doing. That is what Bloom started with. Without these 3 elements you can throw the rest in the trash. Also please remember Bloom did not author all the later material. His wish was for this to be an ongoing living handbook but he never meant for someone to start in the middle and continue to present day. So can we please keep the horse where he/she belongs?
You ask if I find the classroom alien?? Oh yeah. I see teachers that don’t know the material, aren’t prepared, show up late to class, don’t show up at all, use classroom days for their continued education, bring their kids into their classroom for the day because the babysitter was a no show. Seat 1/2 the class facing away from the board for the entire year, but never a teachers child. Go on vacation during the school year. Have surgery that has been diagnosed years before and decide to have it done during the school year. Then have another teacher drive them to school because they are under the influence of narcotics so they don’t have to use their sick days. Teacher arrested for possession of pot during the summer and the BOE states the employee was not under contract at the time so they will not take any action. This along with many other things I find alien, offensive, unprofessional and the beat goes on!!! To address the whining. You stated you were whining so I take it at face value that you are a whiner. Go figure??? Perhaps you can educate me on logic in your next post. I’m willing to learn. You only have to do it till your dead, or not!!
Back to the Fifties
July 18th, 2011
6:58 pm
@itsabouttime: You are absolutely right! And taxpayers pay for those nails and hair weaves. And raise their children. The government has created generations of irresponsible women who, after making a series of poor decisions, expect others to support them.
Paddy O
July 18th, 2011
7:02 pm
A few comments: From a “weak” comparative study, GA elementary teachers with 5 years experience earn more than many 1st year public defenders (lawyers with a JD); and more than many college professors. That said, msbaker: You really think it would be even difficult to do what i suggested, as opposed to the humongous social engineering project you proposed? My analogy to your comparision: me, putting legos together; you, putting an aircraft carrier together; RJ – I NEVER stated anything about a diploma mill – but obviously seasoned teachers ARE aware of the process – can you tell me what % of teachers have a masters from a diploma mill? Also, do teachers NOT receive an annual salary increase? Also, please tell me specifically what your masters degree was in – thank you! BTW – if you make $50,000 teaching, you are far beyond a “decent” wage – especially if you are doing so within 5 years of being hired.
Paddy O
July 18th, 2011
7:03 pm
Maureen – currently, what are the mandated procedures that GA BOE stipulate?
Paddy O
July 18th, 2011
7:11 pm
I would assert from an objective position, that paying K-5 grade teachers anything above a Masters is foolish (if I am accurate, beyond Masters is a “certificate”). Now, middle & high school teachers, assuming that they have Masters & PHD’s in their field of class (history, math, english, etc), it would be valuable to pay them extra for those additional degrees. I also concur with slob, the % of kids taking the SAT needs to publically stated, but I see it from another angle: If the kid is NOT college bound, there is NO reason for the student to take the SAT. I also understand that many local districts will fund the test for kids, this seems relatively cost ineffective. Teachers have created a system, that when coupled with the economic downturn (and a typical downtown will happen every 7 years or so, just not usually this horrible), that the salary structure they have secured is NOT sustainable. It could be defended IF the students were graduating at above 85%, and the SAT score had us in the top 10 in the nation – maybe even top 25. But it is not. GA teachers earn more than teachers in Toledo, OH – and the cost of living there is a bit higher, and the quality of life seriously lower.
sloboffthestreet
July 18th, 2011
7:12 pm
Back to the Fifties, Whatever your on put it down. Please get yourself the help you need. You are one convoluted thinker. When did I ask anyone to pay me to raise my children?
Also please remember, ASSuming sometimes has unintended consequences. I sure hope you don’t teach children.
Back to the Fifties
July 18th, 2011
7:19 pm
Paddy O : your salary numbers for public defenders and teachers are WRONG.JD’s make twice a teacher’s salary starting out. Also, teachers in Georgia do not make $50,000 after five years of service. Just fact checking. Let’s be honest here.
top school 4 real
July 18th, 2011
7:30 pm
And, for the record, teachers have NOT had a raise in at least 3 years.With furlough days, in fact, we are not making as much money as we did 3 years ago. No one here is whining about salaries…we know our salary and the pay scale when we sign a contract. However, it is wrong to write false statements about teacher pay simply to incite more anger on a blog message board that already has far too much teacher bashing.
Incredulous
July 18th, 2011
7:40 pm
@paddy o. You are incapable of calculated and reasoned assertions. You still haven’t read what you were assigned previously.
sloboffthestreet
July 18th, 2011
8:19 pm
OOHHHH,,,, Paddy O,,, He didn’t do his assignment. I’m telling his mommy. Your in BIG TROUBLE Paddy O. Your just lucky Incredulous isn’t your teacher. You would be getting a big F. Incredulously it does MEET THE STANDARD here in Georgia though, so Paddy O, You Pass!! And that is how the game is played. Don’t hate the INCREDULOUS PLAYER,,,,, Hate the Game!!! Or the Parents if you like! HA
Jerry Eads
July 18th, 2011
8:24 pm
I won’t be able to get to the study ’til the grades are in, but all my experience with Rand (including an interview with them for a job I didn’t get
) indicates that their work is very, very, very careful and rigorous. These people are not one of the dozens of agenda driven think tanks, but one of the most respected private for-hire research firms in the world. It would be difficult to imagine Rand risking their reputation, so it’s reasonably safe to assume, as with with Matt’s work at Vandy, that AS PRACTICED in the study, bonuses didn’t then and will not now have any impact; they will be a waste of taxpayer dollars. That DOES NOT MEAN that there ISN’T be a bonus or performance model that might work under some circumstances. But this avenue does NOT look promising. That isn’t likely to discourage policymakers from implementing such programs. These two major studies may simply cause policymakers to be much LESS willing to evaluate whether their programs make any difference: Rarely do we wish to be confused by facts when our minds are made up. Vouchers and charter schools are a perfect example of this. (Okay, I’m softening on charters a bit simply because there are parents desperate for a better education for their kids and they have no other options to try, even though the research is fairly clear that they do not “improve achievement” overall.) If I find any holes in the Rand study I’ll raise a flag.
sloboffthestreet
July 18th, 2011
8:38 pm
Hey top school 4 real, whatever that means? Average salary in Georgia for a public school teacher is @$53,000. Add health insurance, retirement and the extra year or two you can gain saving sick days and you folks have one sweet deal here in the state. Don’t forget how many sick and personal days you have stole from the taxpayers when the economy was so stout. Anyone who needs to be delinquent from work 10% of the year with pay should be in the hospital. You have taken more than your share. My wife has had her salary cut by $10,000 in the last two years as a medical professional. No health benefits or retirement. And you have the nerve to whine about furlough days??? So shut up, quit your crying and educate the children you have the privilege to teach. If it’s so bad, quit and go show us no good parents just how capable you really are in the real world because you folks work for DISNEY!! I do hope that it isn’t for much longer. I am curious,,,,, what does it sound like when it hits the fan??? Anyone?
top school 4 real
July 18th, 2011
9:06 pm
I made it perfectly clear that I was not whining about salary…read my post again. But get your facts straight. We get 9 sick days a year…and work 190 days…In what world is that 10%? One thing I agree with you about it that is it a privilege to teach children, and there is not a day that goes by that I don’t recognize that. I am sorry that you had an unpleasant educational experience and that it has made you so bitter toward teachers, but the majority of us are giving 100% each day, and would walk through walls for our children to be successful.
d
July 18th, 2011
9:10 pm
I’d love to be making anywhere near the $53K a previous poster mentioned. As far as furlough days, if some posters have their way, and we keep getting furloughed, how can we make the products that you claim we are supposed to be making.
That being said, if you want to see improved test scores, give merit pay to the students. They’re the ones actually performing on these tests, not me. I read the directions and let them use their number two pencils to their heart’s content – never actually being allowed to see, on penalty of never being allowed to teach again, what is actually on the test.
sloboffthestreet
July 18th, 2011
9:16 pm
9 sick days and how many personal days??? Where do you work that you signed a 190 day contract last year. Thats not what they signed where I live! I am really enjoying the part about giving 100% and walking through walls for your students to succeed though. More talk like that and some gains to support it would do wonders for my position. Thanks for that. Perhaps it will become contagious. Let’s hope so!!
A Parent Who Supports Teachers
July 18th, 2011
9:21 pm
From a Parent Who Appreciates and Supports Teachers who Love Working with Kids:
mbaker111 wrote “people are motivated to put forth more effort to complete job-related tasks when they:
1. Are allowed a degree of autonomy
2. Work toward mastery of a skill
3. Associate the task with a significant purpose”
Right on! And for those of you who love this blog post and the study it describes, but then say you want to transfer the very same reward structure that didn’t work with teachers to the student level: kids are people too. See Alfie Kohn’s many, many books about the effects of manipulative reward and punishment schemes on student learning.
d
July 18th, 2011
9:30 pm
Heck, in the private sector, I had a better deal – cheaper, but better health coverage, 3 weeks PAID vacation, not having to worry that my social security that I had built up for 10 years will be stolen from me (assuming it’s there when I retire anyway) or that my future spouse won’t be getting her benefits because I am not in Social Security. I pay a bit over 5% of my income to my pension and a bit over 6% into a 403(b). The only place I am better off is that I do get 4 more sick days a year than I did in the private sector, but since I don’t have any paid vacation, I am actually down in that benefit.
I really don’t see why people who are responsible for creating the next generation of American citizens are so hated when it comes to our pay structure. As you can plainly see, it really isn’t all that it’s cracked up to be.
top school 4 real
July 18th, 2011
9:30 pm
Three personal days…Sloboffthestreet, I have been teaching for 33 years and teaching (and students) have changed so much in those years that I cannot even begin to tell you. I am very fortunate in that I have always made it a priority to have very open lines of communication with parents, and in those 33 years I have had only one or two parents who were not interested in their child’s education. And before you ask, 20 years of my teaching experience were in Title 1 schools. Parents care…many just need to be helped to see the potential and strengths of their child (even if that strength doesn’t happen to be in academic areas). Parents just want to know that you SEE their child, that you CARE about their child, and that you are FAIR with their child. Isn’t that what we all want, really?
My students’ test scores (even at that Title 1 school) have always been excellent, and NO, I do NOT teach to the test. We READ and READ and TALK and TALK. I really like my students and enjoy what I do (except the getting up at 5:30 part, after 33 years, I still hate that!).
Lee
July 18th, 2011
9:49 pm
“New study finds bonus pay “had no positive effects on student achievement at any grade level”
I hate to be Captain Obvious here, but didn’t APS and Beverly Hall prove that point in dramatic fashion?
top school 4 real
July 18th, 2011
9:53 pm
I agree…and a very wise teacher told me years and years ago, “All a good teacher needs is a chalkboard and a piece of chalk.” Decades later, I still believe that. We can’t just keep throwing more and more money around and think that it’s going to solve our problems.
ld
July 18th, 2011
10:41 pm
I worked in a department that gave out merit bonuses. All it did was make people hate each other and undermine each others’ teaching. Some classes had six students while others had twenty. So the teacher with six students usually could turn out better grades and argued for a bonus based on that. The teacher with twenty argued for a bonus on the basis of working harder. A bunch of miserable teachers sure made for an ideal learning situation…
TimeOut
July 18th, 2011
10:51 pm
Teacher pay has never equated with higher scores. However, socioeconomic status of students and their parents is directly tied to same in any examination of any and all available data. We cannot ‘buy’ our way out of this problem. We must choose as a society to examine our values and place education higher up on the food chain than it now exists. We want form without substance. If Johnny can barely read but bring home a six figure income, we don’t care if he can make an informed decision at voting time. If he can afford multiple electronic toys, nice clothes, etc. we don’t care if he has any ethics, any sense of community responsibility or recognition of others’ rights. We just want the bling.
msbaker111
July 18th, 2011
11:04 pm
@Paddy O:
The point of my response to your plan for merit pay for CRCT scores was to illustrate how ludicrous your idea was. I guess you missed that.
@slob:
I think you misunderstood. I never said I was whining. I was referring to the comments you directed towards others earlier. No, there will be no lessons in logic. I don’t think it would matter what I say. Your anger toward teachers doesn’t exactly lend itself to rational discussion. I do wonder why you “chose” not to teach and pursued your minor instead. Could this be a clue to the animosity? I will say, though, that I am glad you do not teach children. Somehow, I doubt your attitude would do much to motivate or inspire.
@top school 4 real:
You are exactly right! We do have some serious problems in public education, but more money isn’t the answer. I’m sure some here will attempt to dismiss your experience, but I think you’ve got the answers. When you can establish relationships with students and their families, display a genuine positive regard for them as human beings (not just as members of subgroups), and allow them the opportunity connect classroom learning to their “real lives”, you can achieve amazing results. But these are attributes that can’t be quantified and rated on an evaluation instrument. It’s time we take a new look at our overall purpose for public education and ask ourselves why we do some of the ridiculous things we do. What is it that really counts? One student recently told me that what sets me apart from other teachers (and had a great impact on her personally) is my persistent belief in my students’ abilities “even when they refuse to see it themselves.” How in the world do we measure that?
msbaker111
July 18th, 2011
11:08 pm
@slob:
It’s definitely 190 days. Where in the world do you live?
big money!
July 19th, 2011
12:15 am
how about $188,000 salaries for “administrators???” Does that improve student performance?
Aubrey
July 19th, 2011
1:14 am
This is simply logical. Do you know anyone who says ‘I want to become a teacher because the pay is so great’? The people who choose the profession are not going to be highly motivated by money, or they would not have chosen the profession. Have there been any studies on why teachers choose to be teachers?
And looking at general motivation theory, once material needs have been met, very few people work harder due to pay increase, and if they do the extra motivation is of short duration.
So I say – first figure out why the good teachers are teaching and then find a way to help them do it more and better!
sloboffthestreet
July 19th, 2011
3:35 am
msbaker111
You think I misunderstood? How about you are just wrong. Imagine a teacher being wrong. I never mentioned anything about whining until you responded in your post, “Maybe we whine because,” Call me crazy but to me, that is an admission that you are a whiner. Now i realize when you have no logical response you claim it would be of no benefit to give a lesson in logic. Interesting??? Imagine, you, the one that never would miss a teachable moment? Then you enter into some psycho rant perhaps thinking you are now a shrink. Amazing. “Could this be a clue?” Perhaps you have dined on the murder mystery train one too many times? Once again, Please get over yourself. Then you go on and repeat something I mentioned about another poster. Please let me know when you turn 12 and I’ll send you a Justin Beber t shirt. {I just couldn’t resist} Now how cute is that. Where are your answers to this mess. You bring no facts. You resent when someone does and then you whine. You are confused when you claim I have anger toward teachers. What you hear is my disgust in what are touted as Highly Trained Professionals that have little interest in showing up on time, being prepared and educating themselves as to what they are supposed to teach. They whine just like you do, can’t wait for the day to end and count the days until the next week long vacation or the other unpaid vacations teachers are forced to take as d likes to call them. Not professional in my eyes.
So where are your numbers to show what a fantastic job veteran Georgia educators have done in 2001 or any other year for that matter. You went on about what I presented to you as bias, how you needed to examine the facts. So please bring something to the table besides your over educated nonsense. The job at hand is to educate children. A,B,C, 1,2,3. See how easy. Save the psychology for your self analysis. You just may need it.
Top school is the only teacher I have read here who has been honest about the job. The claim is in 33 years of teaching only one or two parents were absent in their childs education. Talk of relationships between school and parents. Developing that very element when it is not there. Now that’s teacher talk. Chalk and a chalk board. Even a pro board. Every student should be facing this board and be able to see it. I am amazed that teachers don’t understand why students should face the board. I think the truth meter is 4real with top school.
Now for d. You seem to forget where you are. The first thing that sticks out is you don’t state how you took a pay cut from private to public employment, so did you get a raise? Then you go on about how you used to get paid for 3 weeks vacation and now you get nothing?? Let me help you with the math. You must be from Georgia. 52 weeks times 5 days a week is 260 days. Now try to stay with me cause this is tricky. 3 weeks times 5 days is 15. I know you grew up here so you are just going to have to hope I’m not pulling your foot but 260 minus {Takeaway} 15 = {Equals} that is how much is left is, 245 days you worked at your old wonderful {BETTER} job. Now if you did work 190 days last year that left you another 55 days on top of the 15 that you didn’t have to go to work that you did have to attend at your wonderful old job. It total you stayed home 11 weeks more than your old job. With your extra sick days and personal days it even got better now didn’t it. Then you talk about how you have to contribute 5% to your retirement. What you fail to present is the additional 9.25% contribution of your gross pay by the nice taxpayer that you hold in such contempt. So how about doing everybody a big favor including you and get out a piece of paper and write a nice letter to your BOE and tell them what a mistake you made and how you want your wonderful old job back. Somehow I don’t think anyone is going to miss you. Especially the kids.
Aubrey, My daughter said exactly that. She loves her job, loves her pay, benefits and the amount of time off. She switched from pre med for elementary education and has nothing but great things to say about her choice. She teaches in a title I school and had students from 6 countries in her class last year. She was given tenure this past year after 3 years on the job. I wonder why??? She bought a beautiful house last year and drives a new car all at 24 years old. Work is an ethic!!!
d
July 19th, 2011
8:57 am
@slob, Well, since I am currently working for free (another week of unpaid professional development to improve my knowledge in the classroom), I’ll fill you in. First, I do have a masters degree, and can do math just fine, thank you. Please also remember, I am a taxpayer, so in theory, you could say I am paying my own salary. Do I hold taxpayers in contempt? Well, since the taxpayers, myself, my family, my friends, and even slobsoffthestreet, pay my salary, that’d be kind of a stupid thing to do. I never said anything bad about the taxpayers. I will say I don’t appreciate people putting words in my mouth. I am in the business that I am in to fight ignorance, be it the standards that the students need to learn to be successful on a test that I’m not allowed to see or someone who thinks I cannot do simple math. As a teacher of Economics, I made a conscious decision to enter the field I am in. I know the financial benefits aren’t as good. What I do get is the reward of the “ah ha” moments my students have when they get the concept I am trying to teach. Financially, I am probably worse off. Even with you, if you go to work with a private employer, where do you think the money comes from to fund your benefits – not from the pockets of the stockholders, but by the people who do business with your employer. The same goes with me – and even if you don’t have children in the system, you do business with the “products” of the system.
Finally, since you feel the need to control the education field and tell me, the expert in the classroom, how I need to do the job, why don’t you go down to Grady (a public, taxpayer funded institution) and start telling the surgeons how to do their job. Go tell the prosecutors at your county courthouse how to prosecute a case. I doubt you could. Let me do my job and be grateful it isn’t you having to do it.