Live blogging: Georgia’s new school funding formula: “We are not going to reach for excellence”
I am at the first all-day meeting of the state’s new education finance review committee created by Gov. Nathan Deal and the Legislature — it is the sixth such blue ribbon committee since the state adopted the Quality Basic Education Funding Act in 1985.
The most recent committee labored four years and came up with district contracts for flexibility rather than a revised funding formula.
None of the other committees yielded any results, either. Speaking now is state House budget staff director John Brown, who leaves the Legislature after 25 years to join the Regents tomorrow. So, Brown is speaking with a remarkable degree of candor to the 20-member committee about the earlier failed efforts and the state of education in Georgia.
Brown blamed the failures of the other funding review committees on two factors: Governors who wanted only recommendations that were “revenue neutral,” and overly ambitious committee recommendations that were more “wish lists.”
And this may be the most candid comment of all that Brown made on the committee’s purpose:
“We are not going to come up with a formula that reaches for excellence. We are not putting an orchestra in every school. We are not going to be up there. We are going to create a formula so that every school system has enough money to get the basic job done.”
He said the most recent failed funding committee focused too much on best practices and attempted to base the formula on great practices it found in a few systems. Brown said that was a mistake.
“People like me have to have a funding formula,” he said. “There are some people who hate funding formulas but when you are talking about funding k-12 or higher ed or the technical colleges, you need some kind of enrollment-driven formula that provides a certain degree of predictability about how much you are going to have to work with. You can’t do individual budgets for 180 school systems and 2,500 schools. It is imperative to have some kind of enrollment-driven formula as at least one of the things you produce.”
“I am all for thinking out-of-the-box, doing some things different,” Brown said. “You don’t have to be wed to what is. ..but it is my belief that you cannot afford to go on a quest, hearing from many, many school systems in search of best practices in order to to build a formula. The formula has to be a common denominator. There has to be enough money so that any of the 180 school systems could adequately educate a child.”
Brown noted that out of school funding, 92 percent is salaries. Only 8 percent is operating costs. “I don’t believe this group wants to get heavily in teacher salaries,” said Brown.
At that point, state Sen. Fran Millar jumped in and said that teacher salaries and performance pay should be left alone until the results come back from the federal Race to the Top pilot programs, adding, “It’s always better to experiment with other people’s money.”
QBE is dramatically underfunding education in several areas, Brown said. The formula underfunds transportation, barely recognizes technology needs and has failed to keep up with maintenance and textbook costs. And he cited the $1.1 billion in austerity cuts to the formula, as well as $200 million in cuts to the equalization grants provided to help poor systems, from $600 million to $400 million.
In fact, Brown wondered if the lawsuit over insufficient funding by local systems had ever made it to court, which side would have won.
“I am not sure which way it would have gone,” Brown said. “When we make budget cuts, poor systems are less able to deal with the cuts than some of the larger systems. While the lawsuit was not an equity suit per se, we need to be mindful of putting enough money in the formula so that any school system, even the poorer ones, have enough money to educate children.”
“I wouldn’t waste my time with any issue that hasn’t got any reasonable hope of improving student outcome,” Brown said. “I have strong feelings that if we do this study and recommend additional money along the way, I hope for board members and local that it doesn’t become backdoor tax relief…that it would be used for millage decrease.”
Now, the entire committee is sharing ideas for cutting costs, including whether counties could share administrators, such as superintendents and assistant superintendents. Several mentioned that Georgia needs to consider multi-county partnerships. One member suggested that the state should do away with established class sizes.
As to critical needs, several members mentioned improving preschool and beefing up the k-3 years, which they called foundational. Members suggested looking at after-school programs, school nurses, parental outreach, graduation coaches, dual enrollment policies, school security, counselor staffing and data collection. To be data-driven, the state needs to make sure that there is quality control in data reporting. As schools are asked to report more data, they may not have the staff to do it well.
(There seems be a sense that school staffing is a mess — too few people in classrooms and too many in the central office.)
But Professional Standards Commission head and committee member Kelly Henson noted that most school systems have already slashed their administrative staffs, which has meant that more tasks have been pushed down to the school level.
If central office staff is cut even more as a result of the committee’s work, Henson cautioned, “We have to realize there are consequences to those reductions and we need to understand that.”
The committee is back from lunch and now discussing the funding relationship between the local systems and the state, an equation that increasingly is weighted on the local side as the state cuts its contribution to schools.
They are discussing the large disparity between the small rural southwest and southeast Georgia districts and wealthy metro districts. “We have to look at not only tweaking the formula but tearing it up and starting it over to provide the same quality of education for all students in Georgia,” said one member.
Talking about the reductions in the equalization grants to poor districts, L. C. Buster Evans, superintendent of Forsyth County Schools, said, “I would hope one of our early recommendations for the short-term would be to make up that difference, that $200 million shortfall in equalization for those districts.”
Millar raised questions over the entire funding structure, including the requirement that local systems kick in five mills of local tax dollars for their schools.
“From the standpoint of how we fund schools, we always say that if you don’t have 450 kids for an elementary school, you get penalized. But some communities can’t have 450 kids, depending on the community. What is the basis for how we are doing this? Why five mills? Why the school size numbers to get funding?”
Kelly Henson said the issue is getting money to kids in low-wealth districts, but there also has to be consideration of local effort and local will in school funding.
State Rep. Margaret Kaiser, D-Atlanta, who lives in Atlanta’s Grant Park, said that equitable funding is an issue in large districts, such as her own. “My children are zoned for a school in an old building, but our other choice is in an area of high wealth that is building a brand new school. I would like the committee’s conversation to go to the money that is flowing down.. we also should ask for a little accountability from the local systems in challenging them to look at schools that aren’t being utilized by their communities.”
Chair of the Senate ed committee, Millar said charter schools should be part of the equity and partnership discussions that the committee will have.
“What we are working on here is not just for today, but for the next 10 to 15 years,” Millar said. “The growth of school choice is here; we have to think about.”
His House counterpart Brooks Coleman, R-Duluth, said the committee could talk about choice without entering voucher territory. For instance, the committee could take up public school choice among districts, he said.
The discussion shifted here to the urgent need for innovation. Millar suggested that greater accountability was the wrong goal of the committee, that the real goal ought to be greater innovation.
“We can talk about the funding formula all day long,” said Millar. “But our academic performance in this state is mediocre at best.”
But Hank Huckaby, newly named chancellor of the Georgia University System, cautioned that innovation had to be tethered to real accountability when public funds were at stake. He earned a laugh when he noted that in some cases in Georgia, “Flexibility translated to long prison sentences.”
Evans, the Forsyth superintendent, urged discussion of federal funds, noting that federal dollars only account for one percent of his system’s funding, yet the feds control about 25 percent of what is required.
Coleman said the committee ought to look at mandates from the accreditation agency SACS as well. And he said the committee has to delve into the “scholarships” created by the Legislature that take funds out of public education, including the special education voucher and the $50 million private school scholarship tax credits
Henson is now speaking. “We do need a robust discussion about school choice relative to charters, magnet schools and everything else. But I will go ahead and give you my bias. I am opposed to giving one penny of taxpayer money to private schools. I think it is wrong. I am sorry that we ever did it. And I am doubly sorry that we did it without providing any accountability on those folks.”
(I am going to give you my bias. In my many years of reporting on education in Georgia, I have never met anyone as clear-headed, smart and honest about education as Kelly Henson. I would like to see him run DOE someday. I think he is willing to speak the truth and suffer the consequences. )
Now, the committee is wrapping up with final observations. Committee member and former state school board member James Bostic wants education majors taught math in the math department of their colleges and universities. He wants science taught to future teachers in the science department. He thinks that will improve their content knowledge.
Millar asked Chancellor Huckaby to look into overhauling teacher education, and he agreed to do so.
Coleman is now setting up the subcommittees that will begin meeting in earnest this summer. The next meeting of the full committee is Aug. 25 in Tucker. (I will post info as this would be a good meeting to attend.)
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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101 comments Add your comment
Inman Park Boy
June 30th, 2011
11:55 am
So when has the State of Georgia ever reached for “excellence” in any area? This is business as usual under the “Gold Dome.” My advice: send your kids to private schools where at least you have some say in the educational process, and you can vote with your feet.
TimeOut
June 30th, 2011
12:02 pm
It is time for those who wish to have a family to accept that they will have to fund themselves the cost of their children’s education. We have committed ourselves to the foolish notion that public schools must be all things to all people at all times in all places. Hence, we are not meeting the basic mandate of providing a quality basic education to all who would accept the opportunity and attempt to make the most of it. We won’t leave to the churches, the families, the communities themselves, sufficient responsibility for sustenance, character education, supervision, etc. We pick them up, feed them, house them throughout the day, feed them again, provide after-school supervision, and then take them home in time to resume their seats in front of the t.v. and then go to bed. Our most valuable asset receives such dismal oversight and care from us as a society, and quite often, as individuals.
TimeOut
June 30th, 2011
12:07 pm
If they want to cut costs, they can start at the state department, then county offices. We don’t need all of these superintendents, assistant superintendents, department coordinators, etc. Cut non-teaching staff to the bone and pay your teachers to take on the paper work on non-teaching days. Stop spending money on efforts to prove that the job is being done and just do the job. I agree that we don’t need separate educational bodies for all counties. That would be a good place to start………combine systems! Then we can eliminate a lot of county-level positions with useless job descriptions that are nothing more than ‘make-work’ positions to provide others with ‘yes’ men and women and protect fat-cat jobs higher up on the food chain.
equating excellence with music education
June 30th, 2011
12:15 pm
happy to hear a politician mention excellence and the establishment of performing arts at a school in the same breath. we’ve tried for years to figure out a “secret formula” that engages students intellectually while also inculcating the values of individual & group standards in a classroom setting. every attempt to eradicate fine arts – and performing arts in particular – in favor of the next “data driven” or “research based” educrap solution winds up with the same result: students involved in performing arts ALWAYS outperform the general population at a school. you’d think mr. brown would insist that band, chorus, and orchestra courses would be mandatory if they were truly indicative of school excellence.
Tony
June 30th, 2011
12:17 pm
“…we need to be mindful of putting enough money in the formula so that any school system, even the poorer ones, have enough money to educate children.”
“… you need some kind of enrollment-driven formula that provides a certain degree of predictability about how much you are going to have to work with.”
Most of us in the schools trying to make sure we do everything possible for the children to get the most from their education want a better mechanism for school funding and we want the state to take responsibility for its portion. The past 9 years have been the worst for Georgia’s children as state leaders have slashed education budgets so deeply.
The two quotes above are the best ones that I saw in Maureen’s post. We need to be realistic about funding. Schools cannot continue to provide even the most basic educational services if the state continues to underfund the school systems.
A couple of points the committee needs to keep in mind: teachers’ pay is an important consideration. If the state continues to reduce the level of funding for teachers’ salaries, we will lose our best teachers. There is no doubt about that. The other point is that the QBE formula was a very fair formula and helped to equalize resources for all of Georgia’s kids. Unfortunately, the state did not keep the formula up to date and began to manipulate it in ways that led to the undermining of quality in our schools.
I hope this panel stays focused on producing a fair and reasonable funding formula for our schools. I also hope that our state leaders will realize the importance of funding our schools at appropriate levels instead of heaping on additional cuts. Our kids deserve better than the state has been providing.
Scott in Atlanta
June 30th, 2011
12:19 pm
Brown is right. The first priority is to have basic, acceptable education everywhere in Georgia. The second priority is to have higher-priced “excellence” as far as we can afford it. Who can argue that we should not, first, assure basic education for everyone? Good for you, John. Keep reality on the table.
Beck
June 30th, 2011
12:21 pm
TimeOut –
While I’m not for a top-heavy administration, I’ve got news for you; teachers are ALREADY working on non-school days. Unless it’s summer, we’re grading and planning.
During summer, we take PLU courses, college course, work other jobs and some raise children because that is unpaid, non-contract, WELL-DESERVED time OFF!!!!
@ equating excellence...
June 30th, 2011
12:25 pm
I wholheartedly agree with you, but the politicians’ goal is NOT to fun excellent schools. Some say the final goal is to destroy the public education system.
@ equating excellence...
June 30th, 2011
12:28 pm
*fund
ScienceTeacher671
June 30th, 2011
12:41 pm
I’m with TimeOut – of the 92% spent on salaries, how much is spent on redundant county level positions? We have 180 districts – Florida, which is about the same size with about the same population has 67. So basically we have 3 times the bureaucracy for the about the same number of students.
William Casey
June 30th, 2011
12:41 pm
I will not take discussions of school funding costs seriously until the person responsible chooses to discuss taking a hard look at spending on textbooks. Textbooks are a racket! The cost to school systems is enormous! In some cases, texts are necessary. In most, they are not. This is 2011, not 1911! Maureen, I wish you would look into this. I’d be willing to help. BTW— thanks for reporting on this.
William Casey
June 30th, 2011
12:44 pm
@ScienceTeacher671: most of those bureaucratic positions are “political pork” doled out to friends, supporters and relatives of locally powerful people.
MrLiberty
June 30th, 2011
12:48 pm
Another rearrangement of the deck chairs while the Titanic sinks to the bottom. Heaven forbid we should make the intelligent choice to get on another boat. The USS Private Sector has plenty of room, accomodations for all, and the staff that knows it must serve the customer in order to have them. Sorry, didn’t mean to interrupt the fantasy.
Burroughston Broch
June 30th, 2011
1:12 pm
Government schools always brag about excellence but really focus on mediocrity. You need look no farther that the government teacher pay scale. Regardless of whether you’re the top performer or the bottom performer, you’re paid the same. You’re just a small cog in a big wheel.
Garrison Keillor summarizes the government school educational PR blather well – “Lake Woebegone, where all of the kids are above average.”
oldtimer
June 30th, 2011
1:13 pm
In some counties the school system is the employment cow!
Yes Excuses
June 30th, 2011
1:21 pm
It just looks odd – seeing ‘Georgia’ and ‘excellence’ in the same sentence.
ScienceTeacher671
June 30th, 2011
1:21 pm
Yes, in many small rural counties the school system is the main employer, and without county government and the school system there would be no jobs to speak of at all – which is why Georgia is not likely to consolidate any time soon, and which is why we won’t see “smaller government” any time soon – they cut the schools, the State Patrol, the GBI, etc., but ignore the elephant in the living room.
RCH
June 30th, 2011
1:30 pm
A simple thought. Lets bill all the countries of illegal children that we educate.
Small System Teacher
June 30th, 2011
1:39 pm
This funding issue is getting ridiculous. Basically, politicians know they can cut education with very little “backlash”. The truth is, most teachers are working as smart as they can and as hard as they can. Many are achieving excellence by arriving early, staying late, working weekends and holidays, all while forsaking their families. Also, they are spending their own money on everything extra that the school can’t or won’t provide due to austerity cuts. Show me another profession where professionals are scrutinized and held as accountable as educators. This issue is going to get worse unless we all get together and vote for some public education friendly people to represent us as taxpayers. Most of my tax money goes to “school” taxes as it is, and now we have people in office who want to send everyone to private school with public funds. Way to go Georgia.
David Sims
June 30th, 2011
1:56 pm
Quoth Brown: “I am all for thinking out of the box…”
Not far enough out of the box, he isn’t.
Quoth Brown: “People like me have to have a funding formula.”
True.
Quoth Brown: “You need some kind of enrollment-driven formula that provides a certain degree of predictability about how much you are going to have to work with. You can’t do individual budgets for 180 schools and 2,500 schools. It is imperative to have some kind of enrollment-driven formula as at least one of the things you produce.”
Maybe true. A big enough staff, if it is competent and trustworthy and… oh, this is Atlanta. Nevermind.
Yes, you need an enrollment-driven formula. But the input to the formula must be more than the total number of students enrolled. Past formulas have assumed that educating one student is as worthwhile as educating another. That’s wrong. Some students can return to society more value per dollar spent on their educations than other students can.
The formula should weight the students according to their worthiness of higher education. Rather than making a formula that made funding a function of total number of students, you’d do better to make a formula that made funding a function of those students’ summed GPA’s.
Summing GPA’s might not be the best way to go because some students might come from more rigorous schools than others. Scores from a standardized test would probably give a better weighting factor, if you could prevent test score cheating by school officials.
Public schools are terrible
June 30th, 2011
1:59 pm
Simple answer: Do not put your kids in public schools. If parents “can’t afford it” then sell your Mercedes.
Curious One
June 30th, 2011
2:01 pm
Amen to Kelly Henson – he was great at Cobb’’s Walton and Pope and did a tremendous job as assitant superintendent in Marietta before his Rome experience and now the Standards Board – glad a man of his experience, vision, passion and intellect are part of the conversations – folks under the gold dome need to listen to Kelly Henson !
God Bless the Teacher!
June 30th, 2011
2:38 pm
FINALLY! Someone (Kelly Henson) said what needs to be said/done!! Not one penny should be given to private schools. Sending students to private school is a parent CHOICE beyond the standard education provided by taxpayer dollars. If you want to upsize your combo meal, YOU have to pay extra.
Conservative Miser
June 30th, 2011
2:44 pm
Dont expect the government to do anything for you from here on out except take more of your money and give to those who are sorry and do nothing. Save your own money for your self and your own family and prepare to be completely dependent on the fruits of your own labor. Accumulate money and gold and prepare to move out of this soon-to-be communist country. Everything is going to hell because too many people have become dependent on the cheese, and the government has gotten so big that it is in its own way.
David Hoffman
June 30th, 2011
2:49 pm
I would get rid of local funding of public K-12 education. The state should come up with a uniform property tax rate for the entire state that is applied to every single piece of private real estate. Then all the money goes to the state. The state takes the amount of revenue generated and divides by the number of enrolled students in the entire state. That gives the per pupil amount. Each county gets the per pupil amount multiplied by the number of enrolled students. The county school system is limited to paying for ALL costs out of the meoney it gets using the process. No local option sales, no local property taxes, no local income taxes, no local fees, etc. The money must pay for capital costs, operating costs, pension costs, etc.
MrLiberty
June 30th, 2011
2:50 pm
So the AJC title is “No Funding for Excellence”. True. Government schools fund for failure. In fact, the more you fail, the more money you get. That is the government way. In the private sector, the more you fail, well, you close up shop (yes, unless a bunch of crooked government folks steal taxpayer dollars to bail you out – but I am talking about the FREE MARKET, not our Fascist/Socialist USofA.).
Ron
June 30th, 2011
2:52 pm
Notice that politicians and excellence are never used together. Wonder why?
Steve
June 30th, 2011
2:53 pm
Maureen, thank you. This is why we still need a free press. Excellent post.
MrLiberty
June 30th, 2011
2:56 pm
God Bless the Teacher! – Damn right. So what if the government steals money from parents and then spends it on crap schools that they don’t want to send their kids to. They certainly shouldn’t be able to take their money back. I mean all of their money belongs to the government to do with as they will. If they want to send their kids to schools that will actually educate them fine, but we are stealing your money one way or the other. God certainly blessed the teachers in government schools. He empowered the government to steal on their behalf so they would not have to commit the crime of robbery on their own. Just imagine if every government teacher had to go house to house with a gun robbing everyone and forcing their kids into the miserable rundown prisons that employ them. Why there might even be some backlash. How wonderful that the armed police of the government can instead hang the threat of prison or wage garnishment, or tax liens, etc. over parents’ heads instead.
Screw you – parents should not have to pay for both. They deserve the RIGHT to their money and if the government schools can’t perform well enough to EARN the money they should be boarded up or sold to the prison industry. They already have most of the necessary security apparatus, etc.
School Choice & Voucher Advocate
June 30th, 2011
2:59 pm
@Downey – And I am going to give you my bias…I think any man (like Henson) who would make such a ridiculous and untruthful statement about the Scholarship programs in this state (The GSNS and The Tuition Tax Credit – two programs that are innovative and effective and are delivering major results) – has no business leading anyone or anything in education in a state that is woefully behind on a national and global level. The Center for An Educated Georgia @ http://www.educatedgeorgia.org is the hub of truth, reason and education – and thankfully they cleared up reality after your friend Badertscher at the AJC did the hack job article on the Tuition Tax Credit Program in late May. Once again, the diehard public school administrative “Cartel” and associated liberals fail to realize that both programs are NOT giving $ to private schools, the $’s are put in the hands of parents and children FOR THEM TO MAKE THE CHOICE TO GET THE EDUCATION THEY NEED. The Supreme Court has already ruled that Arizona’s, Florida’s, PA’s, GA’s and several other states who have similar programs, ALL OF THEM ARE VALID AND LEGAL AND CONSTITUTIONAL. THANK GOD THEY ARE HERE TO STAY IN GA !!! Henson needs to get his facts straight before he opens his mouth and attempts to mislead the public. Maureen, shame on you purporting it…
Wondering
June 30th, 2011
3:03 pm
Any news about the APS cheating scandal report??? I thought Deal was going to receive it today.
Patricia
June 30th, 2011
3:16 pm
What happened over the past thirty plus years in Schools of Education? I was an education major and received all of my content courses through the specific departments not in the school of education. That meant my math classes were taught by the math department and my science classes were taught by the professors in the science department.
Teacher Educator
June 30th, 2011
3:23 pm
Maureen, Can you expand on Millar’s request to overhaul teacher education? Given the underwhelming goal of “adequacy” for K-12, I’m worried that the overhaul would be a deterioration rather than a strengthening…
Cobb Parent
June 30th, 2011
3:27 pm
I love Brown’s very practical point: create a formula and focus first on providing a basic education to all. But, it is too bad he won’t look at putting an orchestra in every school, or a band, chorus, or performing arts group. Arts inspire and motivate, make kids work hard on perfecting skills and make them work in a group – all good life skills. (Says a mom of a former band member.)
Millar is wedded to the indiocy of charter schools – which is just another way to spend public money without public oversight. Bad idea. And Millar is the head of the state senate ed committee – someone who doesn’t really wholeheartedly believe in public schools?!?!
Good for Henson a thousand times over for forthrightly saying we should not be giving money to private schools.
Can this group really look at that political boondoogle of $50 million in tax credits and bring some transparancy to what is going on with it?
But overall – we need to get the state back to the business of funding education. You can’t attract business to a state that doesn’t educate its kids.
teacher&mom
June 30th, 2011
3:53 pm
Mr. Bostic,
Maybe things have changed since I graduated from college but my I sat in the same science classes as the Biology and Chemistry majors. The only science course that was separate from the science department was a “Teaching of Science” course. It was taught by a professor from the science department. He had never taught outside the University and the course was a waste of time. He had no idea how to engage younger students.
Mikey D
June 30th, 2011
3:59 pm
“At that point, state Sen. Fran Millar jumped in and said that teacher salaries and performance pay should be left alone until the results come back from the federal Race to the Top pilot programs, adding, “It’s always better to experiment with other people’s money.””
Great idea. Those in the know can already tell you what the results of the rttt pilot programs will be, because the idea of merit pay for teachers has been tried in various forms for a hundred years. The results have always been the same… Merit pay has no impact on student achievement. But of course, you have people like Michelle Rhee and Erin Hames who insist that “this time, it will be different!” Wonder if they’ll have the backbone to publicly admit they were wrong a couple of years from now…. Probably not. I’m sure they’ll just blame teachers like they always do…
teacher&mom
June 30th, 2011
4:00 pm
@Maureen – thank you for the report. Could you post a list of all committee members?
I hope the committee continues to take an honest assessment of public school funding and leaves their personal agendas at the door. Adequately fund public education first and then work on your pet projects.
teacher&mom
June 30th, 2011
4:05 pm
@Cobb Parent – The state lost 50K in tax credits. Public schools were hammered with an additional 60K in austerity cuts. Is the public school budget being used to make up the difference in lost tax credits?
Maureen Downey
June 30th, 2011
4:45 pm
@Wondering, I asked someone from the Governor’s Office of Student Achievement this afternoon and she was wondering, too, when it would be released.
Maureen
Maureen Downey
June 30th, 2011
4:50 pm
@teacher&mom, From the governor’s office:
The 20-member commission consists of 10 members tapped by Deal, four senators appointed by Lt. Gov. Casey Cagle, four representatives named by House Speaker David Ralston, State Superintendent John Barge and Chief Operating Officer of the Georgia Department of Education Scott Austenson. The list of those appointed is as follows:
Gov. Deal
Hank Huckaby, chancellor-designate, University System of Georgia
Buster Evans, superintendent, Forsyth County Schools
Wes Taylor, principal, Lowndes County High School
Jadun McCarthy, 2012 Georgia Teacher of the Year
David Johnson, vice chair, Floyd County School Board, president-elect of Georgia School Board Association
Barbara Hampton, 6th Congressional District Member, State Board of Education
Lynn Cornett, at-large member, Technical College System of Georgia Board
Kelly Henson, executive secretary, Professional Standards Commission
Lee Lovett, Deputy superintendent & chief financial officer, Hall County Public Schools
Jim Bostic, representative, Business Community, member, ACT Board of Directors
Lt. Gov. Cagle
Sen. Fran Millar (R-Atlanta), chairman, Senate Education and Youth Committee
Sen. Jim Butterworth (R-Cornelia)
Sen. Jack Hill (R-Reidsville)
Sen. Freddie Powell Sims (D-Dawson)
Speaker Ralston
Rep. Brooks Coleman (R-Duluth), chairman, House Education Committee
Rep. Terry England (R-Auburn)
Rep. Tom Dickson (R-Cohutta)
Rep. Margaret Kaiser (D-Atlanta)
HB 192 — which established the commission — was created to study the cost and resources required to educate a child. The commission will review the Quality Basic Education Formula, a method of calculating funding needed for Georgia school systems. Because it is more than 25 years old, the General Assembly passed the legislation to allow for a comprehensive study and evaluation of the QBE. It will also review other types of educational funding, including Race to the Top.
The commission will meet quarterly as required by the legislation, and must have the final recommendations completed by Sept. 30, 2012.
36 years in education
June 30th, 2011
4:54 pm
I took my content courses in the specific department and then ONE methods course specific to my major. Education professors DID NOT teach the content courses.
I am Central Office personnel now. ALL I do is state reporting…….and listening to complaints such as the one yesterday from the 28 year old mother of five stating that she didn’t like how her son couldn’t go to the movies during the school day in summer school– and it was the teacher’s fault. HUH? And that she was going to call Central Office on all of us– and I told her, I am Central office. Then she told me that we should take the children swimming.
In fact, she screamed, all we did was WORK and it is summer, you know. This is like real school, she howled.
I thanked her for contacting me with her concerns. She’ll probably call the Professional Standards on me and tell them I was not cooperative.
Pray for us all.
yuzeyurbrane
June 30th, 2011
5:02 pm
With Millar so prominent on the committee, I doubt anything good will come of it.
CharterStarter
June 30th, 2011
5:27 pm
Anything said about the Charter Schools Commission?
Maureen Downey
June 30th, 2011
5:30 pm
@Charter, No, but Fran Millar and Margaret Kaiser mentioned charters several times. In particular, Millar said that the committee might as well address charters since the issue was going to come up in the Legislature.
Maureen
Old Grumpy
June 30th, 2011
6:03 pm
I’m slogging my way through the “Great Books of the Western World” series. It was put together by a bunch of folks back in the early fifties. The first book is an introduction to the series. It was written in 1952, primarily by Robert Hutchins, president of the University of Chicago. He absolutely rips the education establishment. His premise is we spend too much time teaching people about a specific job and not enough time teaching them how to learn. According to Hutchins, learning is lifelong and should be available to everyone that wants it – regardless of age.
All this in 1952. When I read it, it could have been written yesterday. Nothing changes. I’ve been watching for changes in public education for most of my sixty something years and it just goes round and round – maybe in a spiral, sort of like water going down the drain. I don’t guess it will get any better in my lifetime.
I dread the world where my (yet unborn) grandchildren will grow up. No real education, no money for education, and what they will be taught is just the basic stuff for a specific career.
I work in IT and have for over 30 years. I can assure you, I have had to learn or starve my entire working life. So folks, we’d best figure out a way to teach our children how to learn.
Ah, the hell with it. Maybe I can talk my daughter into moving to a country where real education exists. I don’t know where that is, but if I can find it, I may move there myself.
tar and feathers party
June 30th, 2011
6:13 pm
You can get an excellent free education at the khanacademy dot com. Math, physics, history, chemistry, all for free and better than 99% of public school teaching. We do not need bloated public schools in the age of the internet! Kids use the khanacademy to learn math, and ace their high school tests without ever opening the textbook (a very expensive textbook too, one that we all have to pay for through our property taxes). Fire the teachers, close the schools, just log onto the khanacademy and get a superior free education!
Dekalb Oldtimer
June 30th, 2011
6:14 pm
WHOA!!!!!
BASICS!!!
that was the original intent of the funding of public education. Basic reading, basic math, basic history, basic geography!!!
That was the intention of the funding by our forefathers.
All Americans were to receive these basics.
How far astray have we wandered??????
OMG!!!! If we would go back to the concept of providing nothing more than the basics for all Americans???? Not multiple programs to meet the NEEDS of every individual student.
Anything more than the basics is not the responsibility of the GOVERNMENT….it is the responsibility of the individual.
Burroughston Broch
June 30th, 2011
6:17 pm
@ 36 years in education
Follow this link (http://bulletin.uga.edu/MajorSpecific.aspx?MajorId=114) to UGA’s catalog for degree requirements for a BSEd in Mathematics Education. You’ll see that things have changed since you graduated – more math courses (shown as EMAT) are taught in the School of Education than the real MATH courses.
Ronin
June 30th, 2011
6:23 pm
@Timeout 12:07 I agree. It appears that there are too many layers of management. 92% of budget is salary?! and 8% operating costs. That seems like an extremely high ratio for labor. Does anyone know what percentage of that 92% is actually spent on classroom staff (teachers) and how much is administrative costs?
Part of the problems appears to be too much bureaucracy, too many districts and school systems, all of which have their own managers, superintendents, asst. superintendents. If the state was in the top five in test scores nationally, I guess no one would have a problem with it. However, they’re not. It appears obvious that there are too many people involved in protecting their own “turf”. As such, change will most likely be slow, if at all.
Only government could operate this way. In the private sector, if your service (test scores) is 48th out of 50, no one is buying your product and in two years you’re out of business.
MB
June 30th, 2011
6:27 pm
I was there as well and have a couple of notes to add. Another word that came up was transparency; moving from compliance to accountability should require that systems show how they’re spending the money. (Don’t see how systems who need to furlough teachers ten days should still somehow find the money to subsidize 14 assistant football coaches, a full-time athletic director and his own secretary…)
On the issue of administrative staff, there was also a suggestion that reporting requirements should be evaluated for necessity and redundancy. Maybe, as 36 years notes, they wouldn’t need so many CO folks who do nothing but prepare data for the state. (I heard more than once today that we may be doing it that way because it’s been done that way forever.) Agree that there seemed to be a general feeling that there are still too many chiefs.
Encouragingly, WmCasey, they discussed textbooks vs technology needs – quite 21st century there. (The new GA TotY was pretty quiet, but he did note that we need to move from the 19th/20th century to the 21st!)
Kudos to Evans for bringing the elephant to the table – the unfunded federal mandate for special ed. Interesting to see if/how the commission addresses that! I agree that it seemed John Brown seemed refreshing forthright in his comments – and agree with him that they need to look at what hasn’t worked rather than try to start from scratch.
Remediation was another topic with interesting offshoots – intervene earlier rather than later since high school remediation apparently has very little payback. Why do we have 25 – 75% percent of students in college who enter requiring remedial services? (Why are we discussing re-funding graduation coaches when apparently we need to improve the value of graduates rather than just move them out?)
The Commission has a page on the DOE website; staff will be drafting white papers on the topics the subcommittees selected today. (Suggestion that the “low-hanging fruit” be picked first to show results for 2012 session.) It is here: http://tinyurl.com/3g2ax5t
Red Wing
June 30th, 2011
6:35 pm
Maureen this is a big report with a lot of info to absorb, much more than usual. I am just a product of GA public education. My brain is about to explode!
justin
June 30th, 2011
6:48 pm
I agree with teacher&mom that Mr. Bostic has no idea what he is talking about who teaches what to future teachers. It’s one of those Fox News type want to blurt out, but they are completely ignorant of what actually is happening in teacher education programs.
d
June 30th, 2011
6:51 pm
@ScienceTeacher – I can’t say exactly why the 21 or so city school systems are in place, but the fact that we have 159 counties in Georgia (2nd only to Texas) goes back to making sure everyone could easily be in touch with their local government officials (maximum 1-day travel to the county seat). Thus we have so many local systems. There are states that are smaller than Georgia with several hundred school systems. I think we’re not too bad with 180 for a state our size.
MB
June 30th, 2011
6:58 pm
@ScienceTeacher They did discuss investigating making systems more efficient by consolidating central office personnel. They also discussed RESAs, which provide many services to smaller systems such as professional development and group purchase opportunities. One system cited today has 200 students TOTAL (K-12); the rep for that district was one who also talked about flexibility needing accountability – apparently one of her systems almost didn’t make payroll for faculty and staff, but had a superintendent with a large-system salary.
North Atl. math teacher.
June 30th, 2011
8:05 pm
@tar/feathers, Thank you for the mentioning the knanacademy cite. I just spent the last hour looking at some of the linear algebra videos. I have seen this man on the news before and he is so smart. I believe he does all of his own videos. I would suggest for students who do not understand their teacher’s lesson to go onto the site and simply look up the topic. Looks like the site has various subjects other than math too.
(Fake) Corinna Magelund
June 30th, 2011
8:15 pm
What’s the point of education when all you need to do is sleep with a Governor’s staffer to land a six-figure job?
P.S., What’s an ombudsman? I might need to know.
teacher&mom
June 30th, 2011
8:17 pm
@MB- I agree that textbook purchases should be brought into the 21st Century. I’m afraid what most folks outside of education fail to understand is the technology is just as expensive as the actual textbook. I can issue either a textbook or a CD to my Biology students. The replacement cost for the book and CD is the same. Then you get into issues with compatibility. More often than not, the CD’s I issue are returned for a book because the student could not get the CD to work on their home computer.
Also, GA has a bad habit of buying technology for the classroom and then abandoning the upkeep of the technology. I have a lap top and a LCD projector. A few years ago, the bulb blew out on the projector and I had to wait several months for it to be replaced. I had to check out the one spare LCD projector from the library and compete with several other teachers who found themselves without a projector.
I’d love to see more flexibility with textbook purchases and more technology purchases. However, technology purchases will mean more tech support personnel. I wonder if at the end of the day, will we end up paying more??
teacher&mom
June 30th, 2011
8:38 pm
@MD- If you really want to make a difference for ALL students, remediation needs to take place K-12. If we really want to make significant changes for all students, then we should consider how to push our higher achieving students ahead. Those students would benefit from more rigorous courses at the middle school level. Continue meeting the needs of the average learner, while addressing the needs of the student who needs additional time. While differentiation is touted as the silver bullet….it isn’t.
The Grad coach idea was well intended and our Grad coach works very hard. However, the program doesn’t work. She is spread too thin and often finds herself taking care of administrative duties that are pushed her way.
Finally…special education. Please tell us if the committee decides to tackle that issue. We have one sped (severe and profound) classroom at our high school that probably costs over $250K a year to operate. That’s the tab for five or six students and it is a low-ball estimate. I’m not saying we shouldn’t be providing services, I just don’t think the average taxpayer realizes how expensive it is to provide services for these students.
IEE
June 30th, 2011
8:46 pm
Was not the task of the last funding committee to determine what the best practices were and develop a formula based on these practices? The name of the committee was Investing in Educational Excellence. Now we are saying; “We can’t be excellent in Georgia”. Am I correct?
Ronin
June 30th, 2011
9:01 pm
The funding model seems overly complicated. Is this unique to GA or is it done this way all over the country?
Justice seeker
June 30th, 2011
9:41 pm
Kelly Henson has bigger things to worry about thtan funding….namely the ethics charges files against him, as well as Kathleen Mathers and Gary Walker for dishonesty.
ScienceTeacher671
June 30th, 2011
10:03 pm
@MB – Remediation was another topic with interesting offshoots – intervene earlier rather than later since high school remediation apparently has very little payback.
Funny, the original idea behind NCLB was to intervene earlier rather than later, but instead of intervening, the state just “fixed” the tests so that most students who needed remediation could pass anyway, and put in a mechanism so that students who couldn’t pass the test could get promoted anyway.
RTI is supposed to mean that we intervene earlier, but in reality we’re just making it easier for the students and passing them along until they get caught by the GHSGT.
Early remediation is a great idea. Why does it seem to be so hard to implement?
ScienceTeacher671
June 30th, 2011
10:18 pm
d, I’ve heard that b.s. about being within a day’s ride of the courthouse all my life, but I don’t believe it.
First of all, some of the smaller counties were created from larger counties after the invention of the automobile. Secondly, I live in the middle of nowhere, but I can drive to at least 7 courthouses within an hour, and can make it to at least 4 more within 90 minutes.
I tend to think an hour in an automobile is equivalent to less than a day with a horse and buggy, but maybe I’m wrong. In any case, if that was the rationale, it’s no longer valid. It used to be that all the schools needed to be within walking distance of the students, which is why we had all those one-room school houses.
Things change, but Georgia hasn’t.
ScienceTeacher671
June 30th, 2011
10:28 pm
@teacher&mom – AGREE! AGREE! AGREE!
Same problems with the books on CD – they cost as much as physical textbooks, the kids say their computers at home won’t open the CDs (or kids don’t have computers at home, or the computer crashed, or the computer doesn’t have a CD drive), the book company says you can put the book on the school website for the kids to use it there, but the tech dept can’t get a license to put the book online…etc., etc., etc. It’s a nice idea but the implementation isn’t there yet.
Also agree about remediation, grad coaches, and SpEd. We had several high school kids who were on about the same level as 6 month old infants – they could smile and react to people, but they couldn’t walk, talk, feed themselves, read, write, or go to the bathroom unassisted (think diapers). The courts say those children are entitled to a free public education, but it’s not education as most parents envision education, and it is very expensive per student.
d
June 30th, 2011
10:48 pm
Georgia’s newest county, Peach, was created back in the 1920s….. since then we lost two, Milton and Campbell were merged into Fulton. Yes, automobiles were available in the 20s, but obviously not to the extent they were today.
School Choice Advocate
June 30th, 2011
11:10 pm
@Cobb Parent and all of the rest too lazy to research the facts – here’s the real deal on the Tuitional Tax Credit Program that was assaulted libelously in the AJC. Let the facts speak for themselves.
Also, the program is a Department of Revenue funded program, not a DOE. And it is here to stay, it already has been upheld in the U.S. Supreme Court. As Chip Rogers has stated a 1,000 times, the GA Legislature even in this economy, has continued to increase the Education budget. However, as many of know, we are all WEARY AND TIRED of continuing to throw money into the public schools. Are you trying to tell me public schools are not wasteful? They’re ridiculously wasteful and got that way because of the tax digest in the state with the housing boom and spent $ like drunken sailors and now that the tax digest has decreased due to Obama Socialism, they’re lost and expect the taxpaying public to fork over money to them to cover their waste so they don’t have to do the right thing and layoff all the waste that they created. We spend almost $2,500 more per student than Texas or California yet have only declined in rankings. Most of our public high schools aside from Charter and Magnet programs DO NOT adequately prepare students to compete at the college level at a national and global level. Deal, Barge, Rogers and Millar are fed up because people like me are fed up and we are sick and tired of dumping OUR MONEY into public schools than are nothing more than educational cartels. And it is my money, not some wasteful public school administrator. I want each parent to say where it goes.
Report Falsely Discredits Student Scholarship Program by Eric Cochling at the CEG
Georgia’s Tax Credit Scholarship Program is an innovative option for families who need access to a better education for their children. Unfortunately, the program has been misrepresented in a study released this week by the Southern Education Foundation that uses nonexistent data to reach false conclusions.
The scholarship program allows Georgia taxpayers who donate to student scholarship organizations (SSOs) to receive a tax credit. These funds are then awarded to students as scholarships toward a private school education.
Here at the Center for an Educated Georgia (CEG), we strongly support the program because it gives low-income parents with children in poor-performing schools the ability to choose a better school for their child.
The Southern Education Foundation’s report made widespread claims that are impossible to support with the data available for this new, three-year-old program. Without question, more information is needed about how scholarships are awarded and who receives them. However, concluding that the program is severely broken is misleading and unfair.
For starters, the report claims that the scholarships do not benefit minority or low-income students. But this conclusion is based on the largely irrelevant demographics of counties where participating schools are located, not on the characteristics of the kids who actually receive the scholarships.
For example, Georgia GOAL Scholarship provides over 35 percent of its scholarships to minority students. Two others, Arete Scholars and GRACE Scholars, provide minority students with over 70 percent and 40 percent of their respective scholarships. That’s almost 1,000 minority students receiving scholarships from just three of Georgia’s 33 SSOs.
To support low-income students, four of the largest SSOs either require or encourage schools to grant scholarships on some means-based system. One of these, Arete Scholars, has an average household income of $30,000 for recipient families, and 90 percent of its recipients are eligible for free or reduced lunch. So how can the study claim that the program “fails to increase low income students attending private schools?”
To its credit, the report does advocate for improvements in reporting and accountability for SSOs. It also calls for an end to the practice where a few SSOs have encouraged private school students to enroll for a day in public school in order to qualify for a scholarship. We couldn’t agree more. In fact, CEG has been on the forefront of advocating for improvements to the program in all of these areas. We especially consider the “enroll for a day” practice to be an absolute abuse of the intent and spirit of the law that must end. However, we do not agree that the actions of a few SSOs should be used to tar and feather an entire program that is doing so much good.
In fact, improvements to the program have already begun. The Georgia General Assembly passed legislation this year (that CEG strongly endorsed) that gives the Department of Revenue a process to remove SSOs that operate improperly and charge SSO leaders who violate the law with a crime. This was an important improvement and lawmakers should continue to require more transparency in this program.
The Tuition Tax Credit Scholarship is providing thousands of Georgia school kids access to a better education. More transparency is certainly required, but for the Southern Education Foundation to characterize the program as a “failed experiment” is absolutely wrong. The challenge we face moving forward is to strengthen the program without undermining the hope it is giving to thousands of children across the state.
ScienceTeacher671
June 30th, 2011
11:36 pm
d, two dozen new counties since 1900? And it’s not about being close to the courthouse, it’s about distributing power and perks and jobs. However, it’s very expensive, and it needs to be undone.
http://georgiainfo.galileo.usg.edu/countyhistory.htm
TimeOut
June 30th, 2011
11:39 pm
Beck,
That is not news to me. I am a 30+ year veteran public school teacher. Perhaps I was unclear. Those teachers who would prefer to work for pay on what are now off-contract days could complete much of the essential administrative duties for which we now pay full-time non-teaching staff. I did not intend to suggest that we add even more uncompensated responsibilities to the 190-1 day calendars of the teaching staff. It is my position that we have too much money dedicated to positions which include zero face-time with students. Many of these positions, in my opinion, do not contribute sufficiently to students’ education. Hence, what minor amount of essential work each position does represent could be consolidated and disbursed among those teaching staff who wish to work an extended contract. I hope that clears up any confusion concerning prior post.
d
July 1st, 2011
12:28 am
@ScienceTeacher…. I’ll agree, in the late 20th and early 21st century, there are a lot of “jobs programs” in our local districts. I can’t honestly believe, and I don’t think any reasonable person would argue that was the case a century ago. That being said, as I said earlier, there are much smaller states with a lot more school districts. Wisconsin has over 400 districts, New Jersey over 500.
Jennifer
July 1st, 2011
1:00 am
transparency ? – during the charter approvals for the two LEA approved charters – the portion of the local funding is as a closely guarded secret as a nuclear attack plan. Any one actually know what the $$ amount is for each the two schools per fte ? Bet not.
Top School
July 1st, 2011
1:35 am
Excellence cannot be achieved without ethical leadership.
The public needs to say “We’ve had enough of the lies, cheating, and misuse of our tax dollars to those already holding positions of authority. They will continue to manipulate and rob the education system.
Dismantle the Professional Standards Commission and all the OFFICE POSITIONS involved.
Georgia Professional Standards Commission…
A Georgia BUDDY SYSTEM TO MANAGE THE in-HOUSE EDUCATION CORRUPTION…
AND Warren Fortson’s CASH COW.
http://www.TopPublicSchoolCorruptionAtlanta.com
vmancuso
July 1st, 2011
7:05 am
When educators, student and parents don’t perform they blame you for not spending enough money. It’s a con game.——————-
Dr NO
July 1st, 2011
7:53 am
Nothing about Bev Cupcake Hall and her lying to Gov Perdue about the completion of the internal and external cheating investigations?
Red Herring
July 1st, 2011
8:24 am
There is much waste in public school education (state government as well). The administrations suck far too much money from the taxpayers and do little for education. Where is the taxpayer’s representation on this panel??
Why doesn’t the state look at the more successful private schools and see what is working there and use that as a model. I doubt any private schools have superintendents making 200k/yr (much more in some public schools in ga)—plus 10 or 11 asst. superintendents making 150K/yr +….. public education is a black hole for taxpayer dollars and until the taxpayer is truly represented in these discussions they will continue to lose. Let’s start by letting the families with the kids start paying more for education and take some of the burden off the property owners (many with no kids). Perhaps is these parents paid more into their kids education they would expect more out of it?? Downsize administrations, pay up for good science and math teachers (using practical standards to evaluate them). All teachers and subjects are not created equal so pay accordingly.
The taxpayer is getting ripped off by all these school administrators with salaries that far exceed
the governor’s salary… At some point the foxes started watching the hen house and now sit on a panel to make sure they get to keep watching it.
A Conservative Voice
July 1st, 2011
9:01 am
Another slow news week, huh……
cgregister
July 1st, 2011
9:12 am
I have said this before and I will say it again. If you all who want school vouchers and charter schools, etc., would put as much time and effort in to your local school, things there might be better. True you would have to make (have) the local school board have less control, which is as it should be, but it would be better than trying to remake the “wheel”.
I work in a local system and the fact of the matter is the board is out of control and not doing it’s due diligence. The county office is so bloated with sorority and fraternity “siblings” it’s not even funny. When they moved the county office to have more space instead of downsizing the staff there, that is when I said I would NEVER vote for splost in DEKALB county again. They have moved transportation to the old Elks lodge on Memorial Dr., have added several trailers at the Sam Moss Service Center and why? Just to keep moving up the “screw-ups” instead of firing them, as it takes too much paper work and effort.
www.honeyfern.org
July 1st, 2011
9:39 am
Very interesting blog and some interesting points. Yes, public education was created to educate factory workers in the basics, but the “factory” has changed. If we are going to continue to offer FAPE, then we need to re-model it to create the “factory workers” for today.
Yes to trim the fat at the central office. Consequences might be that one person actually does their job instead of four people doing one job. We have to streamline the expensive administrators and get qualified, passionate, well-trained teachers into all schools in all areas of the country.
justjanny
July 1st, 2011
9:45 am
“Deal, Barge, Rogers and Millar are fed up because people like me are fed up and we are sick and tired of dumping OUR MONEY into public schools than are nothing more than educational cartels”.
How can you say Barge is fed up? He’s the head of public education! If he’s fed up, there seems to be a conflict of interest!
Philosopher
July 1st, 2011
9:55 am
@Old Grumpy: I’m with you on this one- If we spent some time teaching kids to learn, we wouldn’t have to waste the first six weeks of each school year repeating the material they didn’t really learn the prior year. And then think what all we could teach folks who know how to learn…but FIRST we have to get someone to teach the kids how to learn……and that means the folks who run our education system need to learn how to learn!!
Paddy O
July 1st, 2011
9:58 am
school choice – you are attempting to create a crisis which can be solved by implementing programs you advocate & would benefit from. Globally? As opposed to whom? GA produces Dr, lawyers, scientists. I’d be happy if we got the genuine graduation rate up to 85%. I think the “block” scheduling causes a lot of the drop outs. Also, the Aug 2 school start date is ridiculous, and good evidence of a school industry divorced from reality (a severe case of “agency viewpoint”).
Paddy O
July 1st, 2011
10:00 am
charters are publicly funded private schools for folks who can’t stand that the fact that they decided to live somewhere, where the schools don’t do what they want. The narcissists in society.
catlady
July 1st, 2011
10:20 am
Seems like our past “blue ribbon committees” were not really blue–maybe they were gray. Or maybe it is more difficult than some folks think everything in education is.
Why aren’t there more real educators on this committee? We don’t need more know-nothings telling us how to fund education!
Steven
July 1st, 2011
10:26 am
What better way to have oversight and “vote” for a school than to have the money follow the child. Schools that do poorly will lose students and money, while those that do well will gain students and money. Let those who have a direct interest in child education have the vote as to how education money gets spent, not individuals who have no interest other than to have their tax money reduced.
Property taxes for everyone is so that the community can provide education as a whole to the children that are in it. If every child has an equal amount of funding, then financially, they have an equal chance at success. I don’t have an issue sending my tax dollars to education long after I don’t have children as long as those who have a vested interest in children are making sure it is spent in the right places. I will trust the parents with children way more than the elected school board bureaucrats.
William Casey
July 1st, 2011
10:31 am
HARPING ON TEXTBOOKS AGAIN: I advocate the abolition of textbooks in some fields (my own, history) and looking hard at fields (math) in which they are used daily. I’m NOT advocating upgrading tecnology for it’s own sake. We did that back in the ’90’s when we were awash in HOPE money. Got expensive and largely useless satellite dishes, power points and whiteboards, items that improved student achievement only marginally, if at all. “New additions” are a racket of which the mob would approve.
Philosopher
July 1st, 2011
10:36 am
@Paddy O: AMEN!!!!!!
Paddy O
July 1st, 2011
11:15 am
Steven – YOU trust the parents of kids who fail to teach their kids simple civility & manners? Which in GA is most likely close to 50% of the kids. You have far, far too many kids being the result of recreational sex, as opposed to two married committed kids (one of the consequences of mindless feminism) – this is the foundation of bad test results, not the vast majority of teachers who are committed and excellent at their profession. Excellent students in Georgia still excel. We are being sold a bad paradigm by predominantly liberal people who are pursuing what I call asinine idealism. You can’t make gold out of manure -no matter how much $$$ you spend/waste.
Paddy O
July 1st, 2011
11:16 am
make that committed adults, sorry!
Paddy O
July 1st, 2011
11:21 am
can schools “teach” constructive thinking? Can they teach the ability to observe/notice “cause & effect”? Does DARE eliminate drug abuse, or actually give FREE advertising for drug sellers? I have serious doubt about the ability of the schools to accomplish this. However, it does appear they are NOT teaching kids simple math, spelling and history. We also substantially fail to teach kids essential financial information – how buying a house benefits your tax burden and how using credit cards for essentials in life are a road to ruin.
Paddy O
July 1st, 2011
11:23 am
College graduates are still the elite in society – even those with junk degrees such as mass com, women’s studies, marketing, etc. That comprises what? 30% of adults max? By giving China permanent MFN status (Bill Clinton) we have effectively removed jobs for the non-college among us. Federal policy operating against the majority of citizens. Imagine that.
thomas
July 1st, 2011
12:30 pm
@RH,
“Why doesn’t the state look at the more successful private schools and see what is working there and use that as a model. I doubt any private schools have superintendents making 200k/yr (much more in some public schools in ga)—plus 10 or 11 asst. superintendents making 150K/yr +….. ”
Not sure why your first “look at the more successful private schools” is about how much money administrators make. But, I suppose that’s your inclination. Instead of just “doubting” private school administrators make that much money, why don’t you research it and let us know? I don’t know if there is any position in a private school that corresponds to a superintendent who oversees so many schools, but it should be easier to compare how much principals make. A lot of private schools are “independent” schools. How do you propose we implement such a model for public schools? Are we going to have consolidated K-12 schools all over, each basically acting as its own “district”?
Some ideas sounds good, but …
MrLiberty
July 1st, 2011
3:58 pm
thomas – you cannot follow the private school model because private schools are not able to STEAL the money they get to operate. They must actually EARN it by keeping their customers satisfied with their performance. That is at the fundamental heart of the problem with government run schools. There is no accountability because people cannot take their money and walk. No, I am not talking about vouchers, I am talking about making every parent pay for their child’s education and allowing only a free market in private, homeschool, and charity schools take care of education with NO involvement from the government whatsoever. There will never be a solution until this change happens. Talk won’t fix it, and neither will trying to model the success of the free market while maintaining a socialist funding mechanism.
justin
July 2nd, 2011
8:11 am
@ MrLiberty,
I’m not sure if I agree or disagree with you.
I agree that parental involvement is a huge part of the difference between public schools and private schools. Given what public schools have to deal with, I think we can argue that they are doing remarkably well – unlike many private schools which work only with those easy students only, public schools are mandated to accept everyone.
I believe free, basic education is promised in the Georgia constitution, and unless we change the constitution, I think it is the duty of every single citizen of the state to support public education. If you don’t like it, then you can move to a state that does not promise such free education.
ScienceTeacher671
July 2nd, 2011
9:21 am
Mr. Liberty, if “free market in private, homeschool, and charity schools” had been effective 150-200 years ago, I daresay that public schools would not have been required in Georgia’s Constitution. What makes you think it would work better today?
catlady
July 2nd, 2011
5:24 pm
Here is a real-world example. In 1973, in my county system, the CO consisted of 1 superintendent, 1 assistant supt, 1 secretary (answered the phones, typed and addressed letters,filed), one bookkeeper, one visiting teacher/ attendance officer. That was it! These 5 people took care of the needs of a little over 3,000 students.
Contrast that with NOW: The CO has one superintendent, 2 assistant supts, and about 30 other well-paid direct-report people, all for a system that has grown to….about 4,000 students!
This does not include the school office/administrative staff. In 1973, the biggest school had 1 principal and a secretary. Same school, roughly same size, now cannot do the job with less than 2 administrators and 4 clerical support staff!
CO and local administrative staff positions who do not have DIRECT, DAILY teaching time with students should be cut in half. Then next year, cut another half of those who remain. “Do more with less”–that’s what teachers are told!
In addition, those providing services (PT,OT, speech, etc) should be audited to be sure we are getting what is being paid for. There is no reason for someone to be paid full time who has half their time unassigned!
justin
July 2nd, 2011
5:53 pm
@catlady,
Although I’m sure there are some personnel in CO that can be cut without affecting the day-to-day operation of schools, I don’t think the increase in the CO staff was purely to bloat up the CO. I think there are a whole lot more paper work requirements, and cutting CO staff without removing those requirements will mean there will be a lot more things for teachers to do that have nothing to with direct daily teaching time with students, I’m afraid.
Veteran teacher, 2
July 2nd, 2011
8:41 pm
Good point, Justin. I am old enough to remember when each teacher was responsible for all the records for every student in the “homeroom.” We had to keep the infamous Attendance Register. We had to hand write each report card, and we had to hand write two copies of the permanent record each year. All of those tasks took hours and hours of time away from instructional tasks. SOMEBODY has got to keep up with all of that, and technology does not automatically input data. QBE and NCLB have increased paper work requirements exponentially. The question is, do you really want teachers to have to do all of that paperwork at the expense of instructional activities? As it is now, I have a difficult time leaving before 5:00 almost every day. I am not complaining about that, because I am committed to do whatever it takes.
ScienceTeacher671
July 2nd, 2011
11:13 pm
My spouse works in the private sector. All the managers there have lost their secretaries, because now they have voice mail to take telephone messages when they are out of the office, and they have their own PCs with word processing software, so they can type their own emails and reports.
Contrast that with the CO of our school system, where some departments have SEVERAL secretaries – not to mention assistant superintendents, associate superintendents, and deputy superintendents, and other people for those people to “manage”….
Dr. Craig Spinks/ Augusta
July 3rd, 2011
2:31 am
Any reformulation of funding for GA public schools must include a compulsory external auditing component to insure that appropriated monies are translated efficiently and effectively into student learning.
Besides Bill Shipp, John Barge. John Trotter and myself, is anyone else fed up with our current system of “excuse-based” education?
Bruce Kendall
July 4th, 2011
10:46 am
@ Dr. Craig Spinks, YES!
Top School
July 4th, 2011
2:10 pm
Besides Bill Shipp, John Barge. John Trotter and myself, is anyone else fed up with our current system of “excuse-based” education?
I can’t believe you left me out…
Only I AM FED UP WITH THE …Corrupt Education Cookie Jar…and everyone’s hand in it for the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
They have an excuse for every illegal / criminal act the attempt.
RACE to the TOP …by any means
http://www.TopPublicSchoolCorruptionAtlanta.com
ScienceTeacher671
July 5th, 2011
1:03 am
Dr. Craig, YES.