Everybody is talking about education. Is anyone listening?
"Incarceration is becoming the new American apartheid, and poor children of color are the fodder," said Marian Wright Edelman (Children's Defense Fund)
Over the past few weeks Georgia has been the epicenter of education debate, hosting some of the most notable — and controversial — voices in the field today.Speaking to the Georgia School Boards Association in Savannah 10 days ago, historian Diane Ravitch urged, “Don’t stand by and let politicians tear down a public institution that has been the foundation of our democracy for 150 years.”
Reminding the audience that more than 90 percent of Georgia’s students attend public schools, Ravitch, author of “The Death and Life of the Great American School System, ” said: “We must improve those public schools. We must not pretend those children don’t exist while we are creating more choices for 2 [percent] to 3 percent of them.”
Following her to the podium was a politician, Gov. Nathan Deal, who won applause with his pledge, “We have to restore the joy of teaching to our teachers. And that means diverting away from the concept that everything hinges on a CRCT score.” (If that sounds familiar, it’s because Deal, the candidate, said much the same thing to the same group last year in Savannah.)
Last week, the National Charter Schools Conference brought 4,000 charter school advocates and a pantheon of national figures to Atlanta, from former President Bill Clinton to Newark Mayor Cory Booker.
U.S. Education Secretary Arne Duncan spoke to the conference attendees from Washington, telling them, “I think one of the most insidious things that’s happened in this country over the past couple of decades has been the dumbing down of standards for children. In far too many states, including the state I come from, Illinois, we have been lying to children and lying to families in telling them they are prepared for college and careers when, in fact, they are nowhere near ready.”
The charismatic and fiery Mayor Booker was more preacher than politician in his speech, calling education the new civil rights challenge and declaring, “We fought the greatest war on American soil for the liberation of our people yet we imprison more and more of our own in prisons of ignorance every single day.”
Children’s Defense Fund president Marian Wright Edelman also spoke at the charter conference and amplified Booker’s theme of ending the cradle-to-prison pipeline.
“Public education is the battleground for the future and soul of America, ” she said. “Today education is the Freedom Ride and the sit-in movement of this era.”
Edelman described the moment in which she realized the desperation of many poor children’s lives. The day after the murder of the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. in Memphis, Edelman went into Washington, D.C., schools to warn students not to riot or loot because arrests would hurt their futures.
A boy about 12 looked Edelman in the eye and said, “Lady, what future? I ain’t got no future. I ain’t got nothing to lose.”
“I have spent the last 40 years and will spend the rest of my life proving that boy’s truth wrong, ” Edelman said. “I had no idea how hard it would be. This boy saw and spoke the plain truth for himself and millions of others like him.
“Despite great progress for some over the last 40 years, so much peril remains to snuff out the hopes and dream of children like him, ” she said. “Incarceration is becoming the new American apartheid, and poor children of color are the fodder.”
America’s most pressing dangers come not from an enemy without, she said, but from a failure within to invest in its children.
Quoting Frederick Douglass, Edelman said, “It is easier to build strong children than to repair broken men.”
Donald L. Hense, a Morehouse College graduate and founder of the Friendship Public Charter School in Washington, came to Atlanta to receive a hall of fame award from the charter conference. Hense’s charter high school, which awarded its first diploma in 2003, awarded its 2,000th this year.
As the student representative on the Morehouse board of trustees, Hense served alongside King, who was a Morehouse grad. When King was killed, Hense ushered at the funeral. In the aftermath of King’s assassination, Hense recalled sleeping in his Atlanta dorm room with buckets of water for fear of bombs and fire.
“What with everything that we faced in the 1960s, I feel threatened more today as a part of the so-called education reform community than I did then, ” he said.
“Our schools are threatened not by people who don’t believe in charters or school choice, but by education reformers who believe that reform is best charted and directed by the same public school system that did nothing the previous 100 years, ” he said.
Hense said the charter movement is under siege, adding that he lives in “a city that will try to kill charters by a thousand cuts. Every single year, something happens to try to knock the legs of education reform from under charter schools, every single year.”
“Somehow, we have to find a balance between the undertow caused by those who justify the continued existence of failing schools and the overzealousness of TV reformers who believe that schools can be transformed in 20 months, ” he said.
“We cannot allow the continued mindset of either these groups to prevail, ” Hense told his audience at the Georgia World Congress Center. “Our children’s lives depend on those of us who believe that the liberating value of education is too important to be left to either group. Thoughtful reforms with a clear sense of urgency, without gimmickry, must take the lead.”
When you attend these education events and hear how many dedicated people are working toward better schools, from small-town school board members to former U.S. presidents, you have to wonder if anyone is listening.
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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284 comments Add your comment
Incredulous
June 28th, 2011
2:47 pm
Tonya C., I was reading this board with interest. I think we tend to blame someone else, anyone else, out of habit. I want to believe that we have a voice in determining the outcome of education, but I am starting to have my doubts. It’s been said before, but “follow the money”.
What's best for kids?
June 28th, 2011
2:52 pm
@gamom,
We do know what we are doing, and sometimes we KNOW that all a kid needs is a kick the pants. I won’t do it, but I sure will hope that the parents will.
Stacy
June 28th, 2011
2:54 pm
When parents are treated with respect, when their kids are treated with respect, you will get respect.
Oh how I wish that was true, but sadly it is not. In today’s society, an educator can treat everyone with respect but when there is a problem with a student the parent and child gang up on the teacher. That is the same mentality of people who say outlaw guns and people will not kill each other. It all come down to children have no respect for anyone in authority, their parent, teachers, principles, police,etc. I am not saying in any of my post that I agree with the beating of children, but a couple of licks on their behind hasn’t ever hurt anyone. Maybe their pride. The Bible says, “Spare the rod, spoil the child.” That does not advocate beating the child, but when necessary to spank them. If we all just went back to just 10 commandments and followed them everything would be fine.
motherjanegoose
June 28th, 2011
3:00 pm
“Teaching kids to count is fine, but teaching them what counts is best.” Bob Talbert.
I just read this and thought I would share. It may have been around for a while, not sure. Not many kids today know what counts, from all socio-economic back grounds.
What's best for kids?
June 28th, 2011
3:15 pm
Truly the only people I want to be in charge of are my children; I would prefer to simply teach other people’s children. I will spank my kids, make no mistake, but I don’t want to raise more than the two that I have. When parents begin to take the responsibility for their children and let the teachers teach, the children will learn.
Dr NO
June 28th, 2011
3:21 pm
gamom
June 28th, 2011
2:31 pm
gamom. Studies make for nice wordy words, blustering and high paid power hungry egos/idiots. I deal with numbers all day and believe me one can twist/turn numbers and studies to have them reflect the needed outcome. And thats without cheaing. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
Title1Educator
June 28th, 2011
3:21 pm
@Dr NO “The Joy of Teaching.” How silly. Teaching is a job like all other jobs and who can honestly say their job brings them joy.”
Maybe I’m part of that “less than 15%” (although I have a lot of colleagues who are part of it, too).
Let me rethink that: I think the word joy is inappropriate. Joy is transitory, but passion lingers. I’ve had joyful moments in the classroom, but my passion drew me to this career. I thought of that word often when I looked to change careers over a decade ago. I meditated and prayed for a career–not a job–where compensation wouldn’t matter, would be the “gravy”. I reflected upon the excitement I’d had as a volunteer: computer teacher, library “story time” reader, and writing coach. I resigned from my office job, taking an immediate pay cut. Every year I spend hundreds of unreimbursed dollars on my class. If I’m not taking classes during vacations, I’m pre-planning or attending conferences. None of which I complain nor boast about. Teaching for me is akin to a ministry or as Indians call it “seva”, work offered to God. One of the most challenging campuses I worked at was my first in South Central LA. Not surprisingly, most of the staff were incredibly spiritually grounded people; it wasn’t about the money for any of us.
You said: “Life is tough, jobs are tough, its tough all over.”
I don’t know many teachers whining and crying for sympathy, but nothing I did in my twenties and early 30s before becoming a teacher can compare. Everything else–from 9-5 office work to blue collar factory work–pales in comparison. Purely physical work bores me as much as rote office duties, but I’ve done both. I love the challenge and creativity of teaching, but nothing prepares you for balancing the work and legal responsibilities with bureaucratic pressures and students’ needs. How could you expect parents to verbally or physically attack you for creating discipline and procedures in your classroom? I believe, as my mentors taught me, that the job is hard and there’s always more to learn.
I will acknowledge that there are individuals in it for the money and vacation alone, which I’ve met only since returning to GA. I think the security is the biggest draw. I blame local administrators for forcing out strong, smart, innovative teachers, while retaining so many incompetent, submissive teachers.
That’s the reality I’ve seen.
AtlTaxpayer
June 28th, 2011
3:28 pm
It’s great to see how much interest this article has generated. Education is a complicated issue that stirs up a lot of emotions. A couple of things must be done better if schools are to succeed. Parents must do a better job parenting. Stop expecting teachers to raise our children. Those who think teachers must simply “engage” disruptive students have not been in a classroom recently where kids with serious problems are mainstreamed.
Those folks who run the schools (Boards of Education and School Administrators) must be held accountable by parents and taxpayers. Clayton, DeKalb, and Atlanta Public Schools are examples where those who run our school systems failed to serve the children.
Pay teachers a fair wage. No more furlough days…
Education must be overhauled to prepare students to compete globally. Your child is no longer just competing with folks in the US. Other countries are doing a much better job preparing their children educationally. We can turn this around. But first we have to admit that there is a problem in our homes and our schools.
Claude
June 28th, 2011
4:00 pm
50 years ago, brave young men and women risked their lives to integrate southern colleges. They were passionate about getting a good education. But they don’t seem to be role models for anyone now. They are heroes only to the old.
Title1Educator
June 28th, 2011
4:03 pm
Maureen, I believe that the problem isn’t that we’re talking and not listening, but rather that we’re too often having a conversation about education without all parties agreeing to study the issues in depth from all sides. Too often I feel that people are overwhelmed by personal anecdotes and nostalgia rather than seeing the big picture and modern realities for all stakeholders.
@ atlmom Thank you for the reminder that public education has been in a constant state of reform. It was only in 1892 that the Committee of Ten, an NEA group of educators, was appointed to create the modern model for 12 years of education, including a 4-year secondary school for college-bound and working class students. Previously, non-collegiate students ended with common school (grades 1-8) for work, if they even finished. The Committee also favored the creation of a “liberal” education (including foreign language instruction) in addition to a classical education (more focus on Latin, Greek and philosophy). I still remember being amazed when I read that Laura Ingalls Wilder of the “Little House on the Prairie” series married and became the teacher soon after she finished 8th grade.
@DagnyT I also was most powerfully struck by the inner city boarding schools shown in “Waiting for Superman”. Check out the POV documentary “The Boys of Baraka” to see how boarding school changed the emotional and academic life of seemingly, hopeless black boys from Baltimore.
While I have to agree with many posters that bad or absentee parents are the cause of many disruptive students’ behavior, I’m not always sure how to support such students in my instructional practice besides being calm, communicative, organized, and consistent. Sure, I’ve had those incorrigibly, disruptive students who could tell you that the root of their behavior was their home life. I think having residential institutions (a la Boystown) could be a great option. Still, I worry about systematic abuse in such homes, which happened during the first half of the 20th century. Psychologists and educators blithely categorized students as “morons,” “idiots,” “imbeciles,” etc. (often based on race and class) and many horrors followed.
Finally, I think the most important voices missing from the conversation are the students. Since I began teaching in South Central LA, I’ve had so many students who merely wanted to graduate, and then get to work and have a family. College education was/is the goal for some, but not all students. Is that a lack of exposure or a personal choice? If the latter is possible, why not have some option for vocational education? Even as an GATE/honor student in Buckhead, voc ed classes in woodshop and cooking gave me crucial life skills. The standards movement, while necessary, along with NCLB, has made schools so rigid that today’s kids really miss out. Charter schools, which should be established to give educators and families an option to save curriculum casualties, have become a tool for middle-classed families to create faux private academies.
Logic
June 28th, 2011
4:22 pm
Can someone please fix the link on the News page that says “Get Schoolded” or however it is spelled????
Scolded is definitely what APS and DCSS needs, but I would like to think that our fine editors and columnists can spell.
the prof
June 28th, 2011
4:39 pm
Argosy……………….hahahahahahahahaha………..
Ole Guy
June 28th, 2011
5:36 pm
When you don’t agree with an arguement, the easiest recourse, particularly for the lazy, uninitiated, and plain ole stupid, is to pull the race card; start yelling “hate, hate, discrimination”! The plain fact of the matter is that, contrary to political grandstanding, education is a privilege; not a right. Those who refuse to get with the program…race/mental composition immaterial…should be denied access to publically-funded education, PLAIN AND SIMPLE…OVER AND OUT!
www.honeyfern.org
June 28th, 2011
5:37 pm
No one is listening. It is politics and money and power, pure and simple. Massive change needs to happen, and we continue to place a band-aid over a sucking chest wound. I left to stay sane, and other swho can are leaving, too. No one is listening on a large scale, and it is all about soundbites and speaking fees.
I am truly heartbroken over the status of public education. I believed in its premise and promise, but both of those have been ground into dust, right along with our students. Until we stop blaming someone else and don’t take personal responsibility, for whatever our role is, nothing will change.
No one is listening.
Maureen Downey
June 28th, 2011
6:03 pm
@Logic, Just found the link that you cite. It is being fixed now. Thanks, Maureen
Orlando
June 28th, 2011
6:28 pm
Like a few other posters I recently viewed Waiting for Superman. I thought it did a skillful job of isolating THE #1 problem with education today. In case you’ve not seen it, the problem is TEACHERS’ UNIONS.
ATL Teacher
June 28th, 2011
6:29 pm
I don’t think so. Public schools may have changed for the worse. I read all the posts and checked out suggested links. (I really liked the one from the Huffington Post.) It makes me wonder if the exponential growth of Charter Schools is correlated to NCLB. Interesting?
bob leblah
June 28th, 2011
6:30 pm
No the problem is parenting. It doesn’t matter how well-planned, intelligent etc a curriculum is. If kids don’t want to learn or better yet understand that its important to learn, they won’t.
Apparently...
June 28th, 2011
6:54 pm
Things are not getting better in Clayco; obviously the majority of the board and the superintendent don’t want to listen about education issues. This from the local Clayton paper:
In a work session that followed the called meeting, on Monday, board members mentioned their concerns with the way some members of the community conducted themselves during the public input sessions, particularly at the June 6 budget hearings.
They pointed out various conduct issues, including signs calling for Heatley’s resignation, an extremely boisterous crowd, and community members blocking the middle isle of the meeting room. Some board members suggested that a code of conduct should be enforced, to keep the crowd under control.
Heatley suggested to the board that fire code requirements be enforced to keep the audience from blocking aisles and causing a potential safety hazard.
But some board members disagreed, arguing that too much regulation of how community members could express themselves might be a violation of their right to freedom of speech.
Jerry Eads
June 28th, 2011
7:49 pm
So much to work with, but I’ll just pick @Orlando: Huh. Teachers unions, hm? Wonder what the problem is in Georgia then, given we don’t have unions? It’s a “right to work” state. What the DATA show (NAEP, for example) is that almost all of those states that keep us 49th or 50th are in fact union states. Wonder what that means? Aside from the little detail that “Superman” was a grossly unethical misrepresentation of the facts, and MANY of the quotes were taken out of context so they SOUNDED like they supported their points. Rove and Cheney would be proud.
@Apparently, and many others: Clayco would seem to be another example that reminds us that whatever the solutions (that’s with an “s” – there are NO silver bullets, including “charters”) are, the simple status quo isn’t it. The Gwinnetts and Fairfaxes (VA) of the world work pretty well but there sure are some dismal failures. “Charters” aren’t going to fix that problem (or the inner city one) – or even escape them.
Jerry Eads
June 28th, 2011
8:05 pm
@Title I, keep your eyes peeled for a poster @Cherokee student. Thoughtful posts; hope we hear more from him/her, and hopefully we’ll see more. That doesn’t by any stretch solve your accurate observation that students are listened to even less than teachers, but it would be nice for them to also join us here.
I saw the chuckle about Argosy but didn’t see the post. I won’t speak about Argosy per se, but there were dozens of ‘mail order’ institutions that were shut out of the teacher degree mill recently by the Professional Standards Commission. When the policy was instituted years ago to tie pay raises to advanced degrees, the only place you could GET an advanced degree was from a real college. As with the private charter companies (not to mention the voucher gambit) for K-12, there were folks that smelled easy profit, and the less you put out in teaching the bigger was the profit margin. MANY non-teaching degrees are common and equally valueless, but there was a fixed immutable “perk” that drew many into their jaws. The REALLY sad part is that those people frequently are deluded to believe that’s what REAL graduate education is. Those are the ones who wear their “Dr.” on their sleeve.
Nikole
June 28th, 2011
8:34 pm
@ Orlando—There are NO unions in GA. If we had one, perhaps teachers would be more willing to teach in a way that they know is right and wouldn’t have to put up with disruptive students. If you actually research, you will find that union states tend to do better on national measures and unions even have procedures to HELP get rid of ineffective teachers. They offer and mentor and a specialized professional development program and if you still can’t cut the mustard, they help escort you to the door.
Nikole
June 28th, 2011
8:35 pm
offer *a mentor
William Casey
June 28th, 2011
8:43 pm
Nobody seems to want to get down to the “nuts and bolts” of improving individual schools, so I’ll try. Ideas are supported by specific experiences from my 31 years in public and private schools. I’ll limit myself to high schools since that is my experience. Most of them cost little or no money.
PROBLEM 1: The principal of any large (1,000+ students) public school has a job in which it is almost impossible to achieve excellence. Bob Burke at Chattahoochee in the ‘90’s was an excellent manager. Pete Zervakos at Northview ‘01-09 was a good manager and inspirational leader. Neither could truly supervise instruction which is the school’s core function. This was covered up by both school’s demographics.
SOLUTION 1: Divide the job into MANAGEMENT PRINCIPAL and INSTRUCTIONAL PRINCIPAL with the two forming a team of absolute equals. It worked very well for the German Army 1870-1914 (I‘m a history guy.) Split the difference in pay between today’s Principal and Assistant Principal. Giving instructional leadership to an AP seldom works. “Management priorities” almost always trump instructional necessities.
PROBLEM 2: Teacher evaluation is a joke and it will get worse with the test-drive “value-added” model. My evaluations many years at CHS & NHS consisted of one twenty-minute observation by people who didn’t even understand my subject area. They weren’t stupid. They simply didn’t have experience in my discipline or how to teach it.
SOLUTION 2: Teacher evaluation must be much more intense and done by teams of people from outside the school. I won’t bore you with the hundreds of school politics/prejudices stories I’ve encountered. I will say that I watched two excellent social science teachers run out of Northview by a Department Chairman who hated men (no, I wasn’t one of them.) Expensive? Somewhat because of the increased number of observations required (at least ten full classes in a year) mitigated somewhat by the fact that every teacher wouldn’t need to be evaluated every year. Could also be reduced by recruiting retired teachers such as myself for whom teaching was a “calling” and who would do this at nominal cost. This would have to be organized along SACS lines or too many Principals would staff it with cronies as happens too often now with retiree re-hires.
PROBLEM 3: Discipline and orderly classrooms.
SOLUTION 3: Nothing will solve all such problems but this would certainly help. Restore In-School Suspension Programs to their roots in the 1970’s when retired Marine Corps Captain Boyd Morley and I piloted the program at Cobb County’s Pebblebrook HS. We designed and implemented a program that amounted to a “halfway house” in which the adolescents had to EARN their way back into the school. It was intense without being abusive. This would cost almost nothing since schools already have ISS teachers. Properly training the ISS teachers would be the only cost. Alas, over the past twenty years the program has largely degenerated into a glorified study hall and holding pen. We tried to modify behavior. All this would take is the moral courage then Assistant Principal Ralph Williams showed back then.
There’s LOTS more but the point is that these school-specific solutions are what’s needed rather than the hazy “cosmic reform” efforts I’ve witnessed for the past forty years. If this bores you, you’re part of the problem. These are all things that any school could do. B*tching and moaning about bad parents or social ills doesn’t help.
gamom
June 28th, 2011
8:52 pm
Seeing – that I am such a maudlin parent that does nothing according to some of you, how many of YOU have actually written to your lawmakers on the issue of Educators beating children in Georgia Schools and continue to have no accountability on that issue. I will say it again- it’s almost as if all of you are just o.k. as long as it doesn’t happen to YOUR kids. Well guess what – suppose one of your kids marries one of those kids who was brought up in a district that was beating their kids as a matter of discipline. And they turn around and become a spouse beater. Maybe THEN, you’ll see the law should have been changed long ago. Not only can any of the educators in Georgia beat a child while in the school house – They are are immune, civilly and criminally. Don’t beleive me? Look it up on lexis-nexis – it’s all in black and white. Very simple to read . No I’m not hijacking the thread. It is relevant to the school to prison pipeline. You treat kids like robots and prisoners, you will breed children who become angry, disengaged and it leads to the drop out rate – particularly here in Georgia. Our numbers are far less than stellar on the grad rates. Beating kids is leading to this problem. Hence, leading to the school to prison pipeline. Yeah yeah yea you all will say I am making assumptions and extrapolating way too far. But if its your kid that becomes one of those stats – you’d be howling at the moon.
Laurie
June 28th, 2011
9:12 pm
eacher&mom
June 28th, 2011
8:12 am
More food for thought:
http://www.alfiekohn.org/teaching/edweek/poor.htm
Thanks for this link, Teacher and Mom. I hadn’t seen that essay of Kohn’s. Great one.
Laurie
June 28th, 2011
9:16 pm
Dr. Trotter said: “Do you think for even one mili-second (is this a word?) that the Chinese would countenance ANY defiance from the children in their schools?”
And, um, what the Chinese do is supposed to an argument IN FAVOR of any change in American schools? Funny you should say that….
“The average American high school is excellent preparation for the real world … if you live in a totalitarian society.” -Alfie Kohn
That may not be true in all American schools, but read the above Kohn article for descriptions of typical model in the kinds of schools discussed in Maureen’s blog post.
Laurie
June 28th, 2011
9:17 pm
@Title1Educator: Thank you. That’s all. I hope your students and their parents appreciate you.
gamom
June 28th, 2011
9:20 pm
To Title1educator and William Casey – Thank you so much for your thoughtful and inciteful posts. It’s just so easy to point fingers at parents all the time on these blogs. It’s been going on forever. It’s as if we parents are the only problem ALL the time and that simply is not true. This is 2011, we need thoughtful and inciteful leadership to conquer complex issues in education. There are kids who don’t even know where their next meal is coming from, or who have parents who are drug addicts and don’t give a darn. What is supposed to be done with them? Throw them away? Put ‘em in institution, or simply funnel them to the juvenile justice system? I say teachers are stop gap to help these kids, to get them tuned in to the help they need. To get these kids properly assessed and identified if they have a learning difference. Not everyone learns the same way, not everyone behaves the same way. We can do better.
Stacy
June 28th, 2011
9:22 pm
Gamom—
I think beat and beating is a little over the top. I have done some research and seen that spankings, not beatings, still happen in some parts of the state. If my child becomes a distraction in class and is being disrespectful and all other discipline actions have failed, I would give full permission for my child to have his tail spanked. When he got home he would get another spanking following a stern lecture.
BILL...TIRED OF THE MESS.
June 28th, 2011
9:28 pm
THANKS MR. CASEY! DR, TROTTER HAS ALSO BEEN HAMMERING AT DISCIPLINE FOR YEARS…EVEN ON THIS BLOG! HE IS RIGHT!!
gamom
June 28th, 2011
9:36 pm
OMGoodness Stacy, If your child is injured, you’d have no recourse. Thousands of parents have sent their kids to the doctor after these “spankings”. I just call it hitting because that’s what it is. Let’s not modify our perception to use a nice word like spanking. It’s hitting plain and simple. Hitting School districts attract lazy and incompetent educators. Attracts the worst of the worst. These are people who hold degrees in higher education. From where did they learn this other than tradition. No college of education teaches this to upcoming educators. NONE, NADA ZIP. I am in no way suggesting there should be no discipline. Not at all. There should be order, should be discipline, but what we have here is a real problem. Students with disabilities are getting hit, struck, paddled, beaten – whatever YOU wanna call it far more often than average kids. Do you think that’s right? I suggest YOU call upon the state Board of Ed and get the document that Maureen has about the stats (largely under-reported because the data is not accurately entered or recorded in many cases) and read Impairing Education thoroughly. I don’t ever want my kids in that type of environment. YOu know how many parents have been complaining about this?! You have no idea of what you speak. Read the report ‘Impairing Education’ – google it! Many of the kids cited in that report are from GEORGIA. Again – immunity if the child is injured. Think about that.
gamom
June 28th, 2011
9:53 pm
BTW – I counted 90 counties out of 159 as using this barbaric practice.
Incredulous
June 28th, 2011
10:02 pm
@gamom, Please, please, please!? again, your tone is so strident and your view so irrational as to deny you any crediblity. The numbers you cite accurately the percentage of students within the schools. 11.7% of the state of Georgia’s population is recorded as disabled. That number also holds true within the schools. There is no epidemic of children being beaten in public schools. As a paddler and a paddlee( if that is a word), I can personally attest to the efficacy of paddling on incorrigible students. It works! Paddling is typically reserved as a CHOICE punishment in lieu of OSS. A SPED student is no more likely or less likely to engage in disruptive behavior than any other student. You conveniently use scarce data to attempt to convince readers otherwise. Are you kidding?
Stacy
June 28th, 2011
10:04 pm
gamom–
If the spanking is properly done than there should be no possible injury that could occur. I was spanked in school probably 50 times with no issues. I spank my kids when they are really bad or have repeatedly done the same thing and no other discipline has worked. I do not enjoy spanking my kids, but I do it because I love them and want them to grow into respectful hardworking productive adults. There are time that I even go and cry after spanking them. All kids are different, and they all react to different punishments. For me, I was very stubborn, I could stand in the corner all day, didn’t care if I had things taken away from me, tune people out if they were fusing at me, but the only thing that I responded to was spanking. My parents never beat me and I have the utmost respect for them now. I deserved every spanking that I ever got and I am a better person for it today.
gamom
June 28th, 2011
10:05 pm
@incredulous – where do you teach?
Incredulous
June 28th, 2011
10:08 pm
@gamom, Have you ever?
Stacy
June 28th, 2011
10:11 pm
gamom–
Where did you find the info on the counties. I have friends that teach in 5 North Georgia counties and none of them paddle. I find it odd that I could live in the only area of the state that doesn’t do it. There is a county in Tennessee just across the line from me where they do still paddle. I was talking to one of my former teachers who is now teaching in there and was told that they have far fewer discipline issue than the county they taught at in Georgia. The only difference is paddling.
gamom
June 28th, 2011
10:11 pm
stacy – there are no standards for this practice as to how not to injure, so why allow this?! Do you all really believe what your writing?! Or just like to give a different opinion. INcredulous – If you really are an educator – please answer – where did you learn this? What college did you attend? Or do you people just do it, because you believe in ‘tradition’ or the anecdote that it worked for you. Like I said before, beating students is for dumb and lazy educators in my view. If you can’t figure out a way to educate and relate to the kid, please don’t teach! Again, what county do you teach in – I don’t want to ever move there! And I can’t believe my tax dollars continue to support this barbarism, where it’s not even allowed in prisons, foster care, nursing home, or any other institution. But it’s just A- OK to hit kids in school. unbelievable. I don’t want my children within 100 yards of any school that allows this. I don’t want them in that environment. I would never give permission as a parent for a school to do such to my kids.
Stacy
June 28th, 2011
10:19 pm
Colleges only briefly cover classroom management and how to handle disciplinary issues.
gamom
June 28th, 2011
10:25 pm
The info on each county is readily available from the Georgia State Board of Ed. All you have to do is ask for it. There are many districts that don’t paddle (I count 69 out of 159 districts reporting) and they don’t have behavior issues stacey. Mine is one of them. We have one of the best performing districts (if you are looking at only crct, and sat scoring, etc. But all around I will have to say, I am very pleased that my district does not paddle, and we don’t have the any terrible god awful generalized behavior issues. Of course there are always kids that have issues, but these seem to be minimal. I assure you Stacy, a paddling district does not have better behavior. I lived it back in the day, we had incorrigible kids who continually got paddled way back when – didn’t change them for the better at all. Title 1 schools and Title 1 teachers should not even have paddling on the books too in my view.
Incredulous
June 28th, 2011
10:26 pm
So let me understand you. Your numbers are unsupported, anyone that disagrees with you is dumb and lazy, and you firmly believe that paddling as a consequence is barbaric. If a child were to tease and abuse a dog and the dog bit the child, which would you blame? Two things come to mind: talking with you, is like clapping with one hand, and somewhere a village is missing you.
Tonya C.
June 28th, 2011
10:26 pm
William Casey:
I agree with you recommendations. But number three….fat chance. My spouse works in an alternative school environment where kids are allowed to ‘work out’ their anger issues by destroying school property, assaulting teachers, and threatening students. Enforcing real discipline WILL require a reset in the mindset of many of these parents and a resolution to the ’social ills’ you minimize. I’m being honest here (although I wish I were making it up).
gamom
June 28th, 2011
10:28 pm
There was a hearing on this whole issue in Washington D.C.
Tonya C.
June 28th, 2011
10:29 pm
Incredulous:
I warned you. I think most here can respect intelligent discussion and even countering points of view, but gamom loves to take things to the extreme. Any of us that believe in corporal punishment should be shot and fed to wolves, so-to-speak (according to her).
Stacy
June 28th, 2011
10:29 pm
Like I said before, beating students is for dumb and lazy educators in my view. If you can’t figure out a way to educate and relate to the kid, please don’t teach!
With that advice, there would be no teachers left. When you have 150 students a day, it is impossible to relate to every one of them, no matter how hard you may try. I admit that there are bad teacher who only teach for the summer off, but there are many more who are passionate about what they do and care for every single student who comes into their classroom, even the one who sits there and no matter how hard you try does nothing.
Worried in Cobb
June 28th, 2011
10:32 pm
What has caused the so called slide of an American Education. What has changed in the last few decades to cause the slide. Are teachers these days doing a worse job? Are students not living up to their end of the deal? Are parents not preparing their children as much as they used too? What is the biggest difference?
gamom
June 28th, 2011
10:32 pm
Quote from “Impairing Education”:
“August 10, 2009
“In this 70-page report, the ACLU and Human Rights Watch found that students with disabilities made up 18.8 percent of students who suffered corporal punishment at school during the 2006-2007 school year, although they constituted just 13.7 percent of the total nationwide student population. At least 41,972 students with disabilities were subjected to corporal punishment in US schools during that year. These numbers probably undercount the actual rate of physical discipline, since not all instances are reported or recorded.”
That’s a quote from only 1 of many many reports. I don’t have a clue as to whether the stats for 2009 in Georgia is accurately reported. Some counties have reported over 1000 incidents for 1 school year. The report is available from the GA DOE.
Incredulous
June 28th, 2011
10:37 pm
@gamom, citing the ACLU and the Human Rights Watch won’t attract too many adherents. This is, after all, a conservative state that supports the death penalty and doesn’t give the ACLU the light of day. Perhaps you should consider relocating to Holland.
gamom
June 28th, 2011
10:40 pm
@incredulous – New Mexico just signed a ban on it by a Republican Governor. So I don’t get your reasoning. Believe it or not, I would categorize myself as leaning right of center. And I have talked to lawmakers who were under the impression that this was not happening in the state of Georgia. Unfortunately, no one here has had the backbone to introduce a ban measure, but I believe it’s coming within the next year or two. Currently Louisiana and North Carolina have taken up the issue as well.