Parents asking feds to undo Gwinnett redistricting. Is it time for public school choice?
The Gwinnett school board decision to move students out of the Peachtree Ridge cluster — which has some of county’s most affluent areas — has ed a group of parents to file federal civil rights complaints.
I still wonder if open enrollment isn’t the answer in most counties. I think public school choice would go a long way to appeasing parents.
l talked yesterday to a father from another county who wanted his child to attend the public school a mile from the family business so he and his wife could pick her up and bring her back to the shop in the afternoons. (They both work every day in the shop.)
Instead, the county was holding firm that the family had to send the girl to the school nearest their home, but 18 miles from the shop.
As a taxpayer with a home and business in the school district, the dad couldn’t understand why he couldn’t get approval to send his daughter to a different school within the system. I told him that most schools are zoned by community and that the community gets first dibs on seats in the school.
He thought it was wrong that he pays the same taxes as everyone else in the county, yet couldn’t send his daughter to the local school of his choice. Nor could he understand the hostility with which his request was being met by the central office.
Two complaints were filed with the federal Education Department’s Office for Civil Rights, alleging that Gwinnett Schools is discriminating against the kids by rerouting them to campuses with fewer resources and more students from lower income homes.
About 505 students will move to empty seats in Duluth schools in August. The school board approved the moves last week, saying they will relieve overcrowding.
“The Board of Education and its planning department selected a group of minority children of low socio-economic status to move from a more affluent school district to an already overburdened one under the guise of saying they were trying to reduce overcrowding,” said Lynne Sycamore, a Duluth mom who is among a handful of parents who filed the complaints.
“Most of the children they selected came out of Mason Elementary, which is already under capacity,” she said.
Nearly half of the affected students — 241 — are being moved from Mason Elementary, which is under capacity by 13. Peachtree Ridge High, a school of 3,226 that is over capacity by 426, will lose 158 teens. Hull Middle School, which has 2,409 students, is over capacity by 659 and will lose 106 students.
Gwinnett Schools’ spokeswoman Sloan Roach said the district has not been notified of the complaint.
Students are redistricted based on population figures, said school board member Mary Kay Murphy.
“We don’t use socio-economics,” she said. “Our core belief as a school system is that all students can learn at or above grade level. We would not have received the Broad Prize for closing the achievement gap if we weren’t serving all populations.”
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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86 comments Add your comment
Dunwoody Mom
April 28th, 2011
8:51 am
We would not have received the Broad Prize for closing the achievement gap if we weren’t serving all populations.”
LOL….that is too, too funny….
Old School
April 28th, 2011
8:53 am
So if every kid in Gwinnett wants to go to Peachtree Ridge and every kind in DeKalb wants to go to Lakeside, how does public choice solve the problem.
Dr NO
April 28th, 2011
8:56 am
Agreed Old School. But for the sake of “diversity” we must make these changes. No matter the inconvience, illogic, ridiculousness and burdens brought to bear it is for the greater good.
“The needs of the ONE outweigh the needs of the few and/or the many.”
Can I get an AMAN!??
Dunwoody Mom
April 28th, 2011
8:59 am
Since the majority of schools that would be involved in “choice” are already overcrowded, how do you handle that? Overcrowd already overcrowded schools? We already do that – it’s called AYP transfers and that has worked real well, right?
Reality Check
April 28th, 2011
9:04 am
Parents paying for their own children’s education with absolutely no involvement from government whatsoever would give everyone exactly the kind of freedom of choice they require. Instead the call is to continue stealing from taxpayers and property owners and giving everyone a choice among government run institutions. Maybe my concept of freedom and choice doesn’t agree with everyone’s, but that certainly doesn’t sound like much of a choice for anyone.
East Cobb Parent
April 28th, 2011
9:05 am
@ Maureen, Dunwoody Mom brings up a good point, how would you decide where and who attended which school if it were school choice? Walton is already over crowded and I constantly hear parents of kids zoned for Pope, North Cobb looking for a way to send their child to Walton. Several are using the address of Grandparents, not exactly legal. But your proposal seems to me it would do away with neighborhood schools or do you propose school choice only if there is capacity after zoned kids? If that is the case, we already have that, but the better schools are over crowded and no room for other kids.
What's best for kids?
April 28th, 2011
9:19 am
YES! It is time for public school choice!
www.honeyfern.org
April 28th, 2011
9:25 am
Cobb already has choice; parents are responsible for transportation, and there are limits on how many students can enroll (so, technically, no overcrowding on the campuses, but class sizes are still huge). In Marietta City, you can pay tuition ($3K) to drive your kids to one of their schools.
There already is choice in some districts, but not all.Some parents want choice and transportation (not a possibility), and some schools are worried their high test scores will flee to other schools.
HoneyFern is still enrolling for fall. Maximum total school size is 8, grades 6-12, and tuition is well below your overpriced 20K private schools and includes everything (and no fundraising, except as seniors for a class trip). Come visit and see what we’re about.
Look past your own nose
April 28th, 2011
9:27 am
“Reality Check” — you really believe you derive no benefit from having an educated citizenry? It’s “stealing” to use tax money to ensure that children are taught the skills that will make them good employees, future property owners and responsible citizens? Or are you just another insular pseudo Libertarian who claims they are “self-made” all the while ignoring their own public education, their own taxpayer-subsidized college degree and the myriad other benefits that never seem to count when they’re whining about tax-as-theft?
atlmom
April 28th, 2011
9:30 am
Reality check: but as a citizen of this country I would think you would want all children educated. Of course, that’s not what we have now, but seriously – do you think we shouldn’t try to educate all? You can pay for education or prisons – and believe me we’d have many more than we do now (which is way too many) if we weren’t at least trying to educate all.
As for school choice – it’s GOT TO BE better than what we have now. I actually think that even if the ‘best’ schools didn’t have any room, the ‘other’ schools would still have to get better – not knowing when the ‘better’ schools would have room for the ‘other’ students. Really – there’s probably not much worse we can do than what we now have. Parents need choices (and if their choice is *no* school…not homeschooling…then what was discussed recently would work) – I mean, I have school choice and my friends have school choice. It’s just that those with no choices are the ones who are losing these days.
Maureen Downey
April 28th, 2011
9:34 am
@Dunwoody, For true public school choice, you would have to put all schools on the table. If certain schools were oversubscribed — and Walton would likely be — you would have to go to a lottery. I also think transportation would be the challenge in larger counties where schools are miles apart.
If choice within systems was embraced — the notion that all district taxpayers were on equal footing in school alignment — I think we would eventually see better schools all around.
As for the issue of neighborhood schools: While I think neighborhood schools have benefits, I think good schools have greater benefits.
I think Kittredge in DeKalb shows that families will forsake the notion of a neighborhood school for strong programs.
At this point, it would be hard to adopt public school choice because neighborhoods within districts feel ownership toward their school, and that’s most marked in communities with good schools.
There is an affluent town in New Jersey that did this 30 years ago. It created different themes and approaches in each of its elementary schools and allowed parents to choose from a varied landscape. (There were only two middle and high schools so the real issue was elementary school choice.)
thomas
April 28th, 2011
9:37 am
Stop free public education at the age of 15 – elementary and middle schools can remain “community” schools with the district providing free transportation. For HS (maybe just 10-12), let both students and schools choose. There should be an entrance exam and other screening methods, while students can apply to go to any HS they wish in the district. There must be tuition, not necessarily a huge amount, and subsidize low-income families. Parents are responsible for providing own transportation – or pay fees to use school buses.
Disgusted in GA
April 28th, 2011
9:37 am
If school choice was mandatory, maybe the disctricts would need to pay attention to the very real discrepencies in programing that result from the variations in parent resources.
Dunwoody Mom
April 28th, 2011
9:38 am
DeKalb has lotteries now for their “choice” schools – there is a whole other level of complaint with this method. Kittredge and the other magnet programs have academic requirements attached to it. Are you saying that school choice should be only for those who make a certain grade on the ITBS or GPA?
atlmom
April 28th, 2011
9:52 am
Maureen: I think adopting something akin to what the charter schools do might be better. They have a ‘first tier’ of students – those closest to the school, then a second tier, slightly further away then enrollment’s open to the whole district. This way you kind of have a neighborhood school, which is really great for a neighborhood, but you’d have slots for others as well.
My friend just moved from seattle here, where they do have school choice (I’m not exactly sure how it works) and she was shocked that all she had to do was live in the district to enroll her kids in school. That was that. I guess in Seattle they open up however many slots they have at the schools, then there’s some sort of application process.
We wouldn’t need to do this ridiculous redistricting all the time. we could go to lottery, make a district smaller and smaller around schools that don’t have a lot of room.
There has GOT to be a better way.
Morningside was JUST redistricted and it’s about at capacity AGAIN – as is SPARK and Mary Lin.
APS is not worrying about it because it’s got bigger fish to fry – again, these schools aren’t getting what they need…
EducationCEO
April 28th, 2011
9:57 am
@DunwoodyMom Actually, that is not true for every school in Gwinnett. South Gwinnett is/has been overcrowded for years and no one is begging for a permissive transfer to that school. All of the high schools that are not run like factories/prisons are in the northern part of the county, or at least 40 minutes away from where we live- no buses so my son is stuck. Mary Kay Murphy and any other board member who uses the Broad Prize as justification for what they are doing is naive/apathetic or just plain ignorant. This district has so many hidden policies that disenfranchise minority or low-income kids (which could include Whites too) that it is pathetic. As long as the federal government is lax in monitoring the racial balance in schools this type of thing will continue to happen…or util they get another superintendent who actually has experience in/knowledge of diverse/urban districts. No, Gwinnett IS NOT urban. It is diverse, but urban it is not.
Me
April 28th, 2011
9:58 am
No, it is time for parents to grow up, quit being a bunch of whiners and pitch in to improve the school they are zoned to.
EducationCEO
April 28th, 2011
10:00 am
@ATLMom Not sure which charters you refer to but that is not how enrollment is ’supposed’ to work. Charter schools are open to anyone living within the district and most, except those in Gwinnett, provide some form of transportation from the beginning…not 2-3 years later. There are some groups, mostly those with financial influence, who can create charter schools and strategically keep certain people out. That is where the State Board of Education is ’supposed’ to use their governing authority to prevent such things but this is Georgia after all….
Dr NO
April 28th, 2011
10:00 am
This idea will never work.
atlmom
April 28th, 2011
10:09 am
educationceo: i don’t know exactly – a friend of mine in a crappy school district told me this was the case with a new charter school. so she was either in the ‘first’ or ’second’ tier. I have no way of knowing how true any of this is.
Her kid’s in private school now since the charter school wouldn’t take her kid (even though they have spots) and she wanted to avoid a lawsuit. She was never going to send her child to the local school even if they had to walk away from their condo. this is what i mean by school choice – there are plenty of us with it.
the ones who are losing are those in crappy schools whose parents don’t care or can’t move. so who’s against school choice? all those people who say they are for the ‘poor’ and they care so much about them.
I don’t know if any kind of school choice can work – but certainly we need something new and radical. what we’re doing sucks and is doing no one any good – and we are doing nothing good for us as a society by keeping the status quo and just tweaking it.
Clarence
April 28th, 2011
10:11 am
“If choice within systems was embraced — the notion that all district taxpayers were on equal footing in school alignment — I think we would eventually see better schools all around.”
I think we need a little more than “think” if we’re going to unravel the current system. Will another system work better? Is a lottery more fair than allowing citizens to move to a district that they think has better schools? You allude to a district in New Jersey, but offer no information on the outcomes. Did all the schools improve? How was this measured?
catlady
April 28th, 2011
10:15 am
Whatever happened with Athens/Clarke County’s school choice started in about 1995? Anyone know? Is it still operative?
Tonya C.
April 28th, 2011
10:18 am
Dunwoody Mom is the more pragmatic and logical here. Maureen, you’re far too optimistic and idealistic. Dunwoody Mom brings a valid point: this is only going to create a new set of headaches and most likely to occur as a result of so-called ‘choice’.
atlmom
April 28th, 2011
10:22 am
clarence: they have had some sort of school choice program in south florida at some point and I hear that it was abandoned. Why? i don’t know.
There are ways to reform the current school system without choice, but no one seems to have the fortitude that it would need to do it.
Part of it is the complication in our government – too many cooks in the broth (i.e., like discussed the other day – if you’re on welfare and you have kids – you have a responsibility to getting that kid to school and your benefits should depend on it and/or have your kid taken away).
d
April 28th, 2011
10:24 am
@EducationCEO – I may have misread, and if I did, please forgive me, but if you are concerned about the racial balance of students in the southern end of Gwinnett (Specifically South Gwinnett and Shiloh), I’d ask where do you want the balance to come from? I grew up in the area – moved there when I was 7 years old, graduated from Shiloh in the late 90s and still live in the area. There are very few whites left. Should we start bringing them in from Parkview, Brookwood, and Grayson even though those schools are farther away? I will say at the time I attended Shiloh, it was ranked 8th best in the state as far as academics were concerned (other top schools were Parkview, Brookwood, and Duluth). I think everything comes down to how much does the community support its local school? Better community support, better academic performance.
Lori
April 28th, 2011
10:25 am
I think the real issue would be better solved if we could figure out how to make all schools equal. Why should one school be so much better than another? Solve that problem and redistricting wouldn’t be an issue.
Tonya C.
April 28th, 2011
10:27 am
EducationCEO:
Ummm..what Charter School are you referring to? My son has gone to SEVERAL and they have worked like what atlmom described. And as for transportation…the one TRUE charter he went to, with open enrollment for the ENTIRE county and a lottery system provided NO transportation. The other two were neighborhood charters that took the the first tier/second tier approach.
Elizabeth
April 28th, 2011
10:28 am
I am all for school choice. As long as:
1. parents provide the transportation, not the school system.
2. the school you are going to has rooom– without adding trailors which are dangerous as well as too small and not conducive to learning.
3. the school’s permanent buildings do not exceed capacity as determined by the Fire Marshall.
4. the parents pick up and drop off their children ON TIME—not early or late.
5. the parents do not use distance as an excuse for keeping their child out of school or for parents attending all school functions, including required conferences and meeting.
6.the parents do NOT expect babysitting if the child is sick, or the parent is late. Pick them up regardless.
7. As long as truancy laws and chronic absenteeism/tardeiness rules are Tightened and strictly enforced with NO exceptions granted.
Think of the money we could save by eliminating school buses from the budget!
School attendence would level out and all schools would be about equal in number. Right? So then parents would not be able to complain about the teachers or the education their little darlings were receiving. Right??
Atlanta mom
April 28th, 2011
10:29 am
Maureen,
I don’t think you are suggesting school choice. You are offering random assignment to any school in a district. Is that what you meant? An oversubscribed school goes to a lottery, so if I live next door to the school, and my number isn’t drawn, I get to go to some other school I didn’t apply to?
Maureen Downey
April 28th, 2011
10:31 am
@Atlanta mom, Systems that allow choice usually require that parents list several schools. It would not be random as parents can request specific schools within the district;
The NJ system that did this 30 years ago by creating theme or magnet schools and allowing choice was Montclair. Here is a good story about what that same system is doing now that talks about the problems as well as the pluses:
http://montclair.patch.com/articles/are-montclair-schools-truly-integrated-and-diverse
Tonya C.
April 28th, 2011
10:33 am
atlmom:
It was a bomb? How do I know? I am a native Floridian (born and raised in Miami-Dade/Broward) and saw it firsthand. It didn’t produce any REAL change and has been all but abandoned at this point. The best schools had NO room already and the local residents put up a fight if their school was placed on the transfer list. The schools available to transfer to were often not much better than the students’ original home schools and seemed to only get worse with the influx of kids from outside the neighborhood.
I’ve seen this play out, and it NEVER goes the way it is idealized.
Lynn d
April 28th, 2011
10:33 am
DeKalb’s magnets and magnets across the country benefit tremendously from extra dollars. Kittredge (since you used it as an example) gets six teachers more than it really earns. DeKalb School of the Arts gets 10.
Would people move their children around if all the schools had the same resources? Or would it be either shopping for the best student population or on the other extreme, the teachers who wouldn’t call and complain about your child?
I think that choice is part of the answer but we would end up with more and more segregated, either racially, economically or both.
What's best for kids?
April 28th, 2011
10:35 am
Public school choice is a win/win/win:
Win for parents: they send their kids to the school of their choice, assuming all responsibility for the child’s education.
Win for schools: schools raise the expectations academically and behaviorally; if the student is unhappy, he/she can move to another school.
Win for students: they get the best possible education that they can under the circumstances that they are given.
What we have now is not working, and our antipathy toward change is keepingus from making some of the decisions that need to be made to save our kids and save our schools.
DeKalb Educated
April 28th, 2011
10:39 am
With the price of gas going up and the weight of our children rising even faster, we should encourage neighborhood schools where children can walk and ride bikes to school (like the childhood of my youth). Parents need to do the hard work and improve their neighborhood schools just like they do with their yards. For all the money spent on hair extensions and fancy fingernails, is money that can be spent on education. It is about priorities. We had work days our schools. We raised money for lab equipment and art supplies. We raised money for foreign language teachers. Every school district can do this. It takes time, effort and willingness. Yes, there will be many parents who will ride on the coat tails of the few hard working parents and never lift a finger to help but will demand their children be allowed to participate. Much like those in the other part of the county who think they can ship their child from one school to another and reap the benefits. What children need are role models in their homes who put education ahead of reality tv where trips to library outnumber trips to the mall.
Clarence
April 28th, 2011
10:47 am
I’ve not seen a single person point out how a “lottery” is fair. If you have school choice, certain schools are ALWAYS going to have more demand than capacity, meaning it won’t be TRUE school choice. So my questions is how is a lottery more fair than the current system? To me this comes down to people feeling like they are entitled to send their children wherever they please instead of following @Me’s advice “to grow up, quit being a bunch of whiners and pitch in to improve the school they are zoned to.”
Dr. Craig Spinks/ Augusta
April 28th, 2011
10:53 am
Maureen,
Might I suggest that public schools need to get out of the parent-appeasement business. Suggesting that much of the grade-inflation, student misbehavior and teacher angst has arisen from appeasing unreasonable parents would not be a stretch.
When public schools educate their children, reasonable parents are satisfied.
Please keep us apprised of what happens to this civil rights complaint. I’m interested in finding out whether the USDOE’s Office of Civil Rights thinks that this complaint is founded upon reasonable grounds.
By the way, have you recently heard anything from the SW DeKalb teacher whose letter you published several weeks ago? Let’s not forget about him.
Clarence
April 28th, 2011
10:53 am
And after reading Maureen’s link to the Montclair article, I failed to see many “pluses.” I’m not claiming they don’t exist – maybe all of the schools in question increased performance. But I feel like that piece highlighted the inherent inequities and administrative challenges more than anything.
Simply Me
April 28th, 2011
10:56 am
I sympathize the father who wants to send his child to a school close to his place of business and don’t understand why his request will not be approved. Teachers are allowed to bring their children to the school in which they work – how is this any different. Don’t get me wrong, yes teachers are doing a great thing by teaching our kids everyday but are they above having to deal with the same things other parents face when balancing work and home???
Cris
April 28th, 2011
10:56 am
I read an article this morning about a homeless woman in Connecticut who has been charged with larceny for using her babysitters address so that her kindergartner could attend a higher performing school in the babysitters district…..this craziness is everywhere! Unfortunately, while choice/charter seems to be the answer it’s just not realistic! Again, the parents who are involved and care about their children’s education will find a way to a) make the school they are currently districted for work for their child or b) move the child by whatever means necessary to a better school….I’ve said it 100 times (or more) the quality of the child’s education is directly related to parental involvement (of course you will always have students who will rise above poor parenting as well). School systems, whatever they may try, cannot fufill the role of a concerned parent!! Does that mean we shouldn’t try? If I had the answer to that, I’d be the new DeKalb superintentant it seems……
LOL
April 28th, 2011
10:59 am
Ms. Murphy’s last statement,”We would not have received the Broad Prize for closing the achievement gap if we weren’t serving all populations,” is absolutely hilarious! They won the award for political reasons. The school district is definitely not an urban district. All districts should offer school choice. Parents know what is best for their children, so school districts should put aside power issues and do what is best for children, by offering school choice options for all!
Cobb and Fulton Counties are about to allow this for their charter schools. Students from Cobb will be able go to a Fulton County charter school and vice versa. This is a great start. Parents need to organize and speak up!
Pluto
April 28th, 2011
11:03 am
Why do the parents need to ask the feds to resolve this? The federal department needs to be abolished and the local level needs to address this. Why aren’t people at the local level smart enough to figure this stuff out? They hold elections don’t they?
Dr. Craig Spinks/ Augusta
April 28th, 2011
11:08 am
d and Clarence:
I agree with your points about the value of community and parent support for public schools.
But I have serious questions about what individual schools, school systems, and education-related organizations are doing to recruit parents and other community members to volunteer in, and otherwise support, local schools.
And I don’t think sending-a-note-home-with-a-student constitutes vigorous recruitment.
T Krugman
April 28th, 2011
11:10 am
School choice sounds great, but has anyone thought it through? Imagine if 10,000 kids wanted to attend School A and no students wanted to attend school B. WHo gets priority? Who arranges the transportation and staffing? What is to keep School A from ‘cherry picking’ students for atheltics or other reasons? What does the system do wth the empty buildings? What happens if half of those 10,000 change their minds a few months into the academic year and wish to transfer to school C? These things are much more complex than simply stating that ’school choice’ is the answer to our educational woes.
A Conservative Voice
April 28th, 2011
11:13 am
Racism, pure and simply and I’m gonna use the “damn” race card right now.
catlady
April 28th, 2011
11:16 am
Apparently Athens/Clarke County schools abandoned the modified school choice 2 years ago. It was to function like this: you rank your first 3 choices for elementary, and something like 98% of parents got one of those choices. You would provide transportation or I think there was to be central dropoff points for catching buses. Middle school you chose from 2 schools, and high school you went where zoned. I think parents who failed to choose saw their kids sent wherever there was room.
Apparently it was not a rousing success since they abandoned it. Would love to hear some feedback from real people about it, or even an “official” report.
One thing that bothers me is we assume that schools with high concentrations of poor students cannot have parental involvement. I think this is incorrect. Anyone got any examples?
Parental investment is key–one reason why charter schools with poorer students see some increase in test scores is because parents have to apply to get in there (or is that so?).
Let's be real
April 28th, 2011
11:27 am
“We don’t use socio-economics,” she said. “Our core belief as a school system is that all students can learn at or above grade level. We would not have received the Broad Prize for closing the achievement gap if we weren’t serving all populations”
Watch out for the lightning strikes. I don’t think I could do a job where I would just have to tell boldfaced lies with a straight face.
Dr NO
April 28th, 2011
11:57 am
This is just pie in the sky. Aint gonna happen.
atlmom
April 28th, 2011
12:00 pm
all you people who think the answer is ‘parents getting involved’: okay – great – there are many parents involved. But do the children need to suffer when the parents ARE NOT involved?
Even school choice is re-arranging deck chairs (my kids will always go to a good school, or wherever is best for them, as I’ve mentioned before – *I* have school choice).
If the parents aren’t involved, it is clear to all that they won’t *be* involved. So, now what?
I guess the answer is: how do we educate *those* children where parents treat the school as free day care/food/everything their kids need????
Personally, I want EVERY SINGLE CHILD to get a great fantastic education. We owe it to the kids – as a society. We owe it to the kids for a zillion reasons, some of which, as a society are selfish (you educate every single one because you don’t know which one is the einstein of his/her generation).
Tonya C.
April 28th, 2011
12:13 pm
atlmom:
The idea is utopian. Beautiful, but utopian none the less. Once America realizes this, it can fight to regain what has been lost to other countries who already realize this. I’m being honest.
Cris
April 28th, 2011
12:15 pm
atlmom, I don’t think that poor parents = non-involvement – you don’t have to be rich to be a good parent (I think we all agree that the other extreme can be just as bad if not worse) and I do want to see every child educated…..I’m just saying we can all rant and rave about what the school systems, teachers, gov’t, administrations, etc until we’re blue in the face, but none of those entities can change parental involvement
Denise
April 28th, 2011
12:31 pm
What is the definition of a “good” school? A good school is based on parental involvement, resources, and strong community support from all stakeholders. School choice will not solve the problems that plague low achieving schools. If parents at school “A” see hair extensions (thanks D), fake nails, and other foolishness as a priority…then the school will probably be a low performing school…parents that don’t value education do not train their offspring to value education..hence the behavior problems that plague these schools and low test scores because the teacher can’t teach..the fact that the kids come to school hungry cause “Pookie” has sold her foodstamps..The kids come to school not knowing their parents real name let alone their real names…some have never been worked with at home and wouldn’t recognize a letter of the alphabet if it bite them on the ankle..the result..a poor performing school where the public blames the educators for not teaching..when in actuality..the teachers have been teaching probably harder than their suburban counterparts..but the test scores will not yield the desired results because of the BS that goes on before, after school and on the weekends at home…Fast-Forward to School “B”, most students are in two parent homes, or homes where the single parent is involved and educated…the parents at this school value education for the most part…children are taught to value education…priorities are building a strong educational foundation for their kids, paying for their homes, building a nest egg for their future, and being involved in the community and school… the kids come to school having been read to, taught a few letters and with language skills…parents feed their kids at home, they are clean, and assist with homework and projects at home…don’t forget they come to school with actual school supplies…OMG..what do you get? A high performing school…my point is by allowing “Mookie” to transfer from the “Hood” to the suburbs..because his mother thinks that he will simply absorb smartness due to being around more focused kids will never work…by forcing the students at the higher schools to go to lower schools will not work because you will then have good students suffering because of the constant behavior problems from the “half-raised” and the stress this places on the educators….Additionally, I am not stating that all poor children are not smart or half-raised because this simply is untrue…those poor students who want to learn are trapped by socio-economics and this is sad…but…school choice is not going to work..the only winners will be the private schools.
Larry Major
April 28th, 2011
12:42 pm
Gwinnett has had a transfer policy for quite a while, which works about the way some of you describe. You can’t transfer to a school without any room (to prevent parents like me from getting involved) but there are over 50 schools currently accepting applications.
When we had 100 trailers at our schools, you couldn’t transfer here. Now that the buildings are complete, both the HS and MS are accepting transfers.
ItsTheParentsStupid
April 28th, 2011
12:45 pm
All the argument about where to send a group of students should shed light. If the teachers, curriculum, methods of instructions, school, etc., was so good and great in a particular district…they should desire to show their stuff with students that have been perceived as low academic achievers. The reason is because these schools aren’t good, the teachers aren’t, they have a captive audience of students whereby their parents have helped them to understand and see a connection between their formal and informal education and a somewhat better life. The schools have good students that arrive at school well fed, prepared and eager to learn. They make the teachers and school look great.
To Mary Kay’s Broad statement, we all know Gwinnett is far from urban, however, it may be diverse. Whenever the county constructs at least 350 public housing units near Sugarloaf and Duluth Hwy; Hwy. 316 and Harbins Road; Five Forks Trickum and or Webb Gin; and Suwanee Dam Road, please don’t mention urban.
The parents involved in this situation are witnessing how government schools use property zones and the amount you paid for your home to provide access and deny others to certain schools. I have worked within the government school system and they ran me away due to my inability to deal with the dumbing down of students and the “one size fits all approach.” I have always considered private, free, independent schooling for my children, however, I had to convince my Queen. We were considering trying to take advantage of the “transfer policy” in Gwinnett to send my child to a school that was “labeled” a small bit better than what I was zoned. Wouldn’t you know, the school I was considering is not accepting transfers (Lucky Me)…Glad I went took upon myself to attend an Open House at Greater Atlanta Christian and my wife and son fell in love immediately and he will begin kindergarten there in the fall.
Yes, the 12K may appear to be a bit for a budding 5 year old, however, I have enough formal and informal education to understand the difference between “learning” and “schooling.” Furthermore, it’s my responsibility and I was smart enough not to price myself out of my responsibilities with a cute convertible or 5000sq.ft. home that we spend very few open eye hours in. Yeah, “It’s The Economy Stupid” and “It’s Education Stupid.” But when it comes down to schools, especially Government Schools…..”It’s The Parents Stupid.”
atlmom
April 28th, 2011
12:46 pm
I didn’t mean to say (if I did) that non involved parents are only poor parents. Clearly lots of parents are uninvolved. but if you value education – then that passes down to the kids – and if you value education, chances are you are either not poor or are working on a way not to be poor or are trying to get your kids educated so they will grow up and have it better eventually.
The point is – that I have definitely been saying that school choice is needed for all. but people here have been right in saying: if the parents don’t value education – or care or anything – then the kids won’t get the education. No matter the means in which the kids get to the school.
No one said anything about private schools at all – in fact, mostly we’ve been talking about choice via public schools. how would the private schools benefit?
So how does society go about educating those children when parents don’t care at all? Because we are going to *have* to address this issue – it is affecting every aspect of our lives when these kids grow up.
What's Really Going On
April 28th, 2011
12:46 pm
Without REAL choice in public schools, we are left with the current de facto “private” schools within public school systems that we have now. There are no silver bullets in education, however, we can all agree that things should be better. So on the issue of opening up more choices to parents within the public schools, I say we take the charter model a step further. 1. Schools allocate a set maximum PERCENTAGE (say, 60%) of their available seats to students within their defined primary attendance zone. With this model even those who are within the primary zone would also be subject to a lottery if the school is oversubscribed. The remaining 40% would be open for any students in the district. Again, if there is over subscription, then it becomes a lottery. Give all attendees hard deadlines for when they have to confirm attendance and if the deadline is missed then work down the waiting list which has in district students prioritized at the top of the list. Anything other than a model like this, when you are talking about high performing schools, is pointless, because there will almost always be more than enough students within the school’s attendance zone to occupy the seats. With my proposal, we still have a semblance of a neighborhood school, however, we also increasing the odds of a parent/child being able to exercise school choice who may not have had access to a particular school otherwise (i.e, they could not afford to buy a $400K+ mini mansion to be in the school attendance zone). We can tinker with the percentages in my model, but I am curious what everyone’s thoughts are.
CobbParent
April 28th, 2011
12:56 pm
“We can tinker with the percentages in my model, but I am curious what everyone’s thoughts are.”
Tinker with the percentages? How about this – if you live in the defined primary attendance zone for a school then your child gets to attend, period. If there are spaces left over, have a lottery for children outside of the zone. Why in the heck should I have to drive my child half way across the county when I bought a home in this area so he could attend the schools here? In any event, why do you need a lottery when there already is one – the life lottery. The only difference is that in the life lottery someone (me, the parent) has to put forth the effort to make sure my child has all of the advantages I can provide – in your lottery, the only effort parents have to put forth is listing schools and praying their number gets pulled. No thanks.
FBT
April 28th, 2011
1:02 pm
@catlady-ACC’s controlled choice was a big failure and transportation costs were very high. The county is no longer using controlled choice. My oldest was a kindergarten student the year the program began. She didn’t get her first, second, or third choice (one within two blocks of our home all within a very few miles). She was assigned to the poorest performing school in the county located 20 minutes from our home. And thus began her private education.
FBT
April 28th, 2011
1:03 pm
http://www.clarke.k12.ga.us/district.cfm?subpage=33863
catlady
April 28th, 2011
1:11 pm
Some of you have mentioned tying govt benefits to school behavior. How about you have to pick up your welfare/stamps (their electronic equivalent) AT THE SCHOOL? Or tie the school database in with DFACS and the US govt income tax division. In some way, if parents are not meeting their responsibility at the school to their child, they lose benefits/exemptions and “learn” a whole new way of demonstrating their love for their child.
bob leblah
April 28th, 2011
1:15 pm
The “good/bad” school problem is a symptom of a the real problem. Certain parts of our community need to stop blaming the education system for their kids and failure and start raising their children with actual morals and an understanding that school and getting an education is important.
What's Really Going On
April 28th, 2011
1:25 pm
@CobbParent – Do you not feel that your child’s future (i.e., career, taxes, quality of life, etc..) are inextricably linked to that of the child(ren) who through no fault of their own are in homes, communities, etc, that unfortunately do not stress the importance of education? Are you not concerned that all of the advantages you afford your child today will be lost due to him/her shouldering an enormous burden as they are perhaps forced to help take care of (via increased taxes to pay for incarceration, health car, etc..) of an ever growing percentage of the population that was/is undereducated? Do you truly feel like you and future generations of your family will continue to be able to live in a bubble never having to face societal ills, that quite frankly, could be alleviated if more people TODAY looked beyond their own comfort level and sacrificed a small amount for the greater good? Will your child not be successful in life if their school has a PTA budget of only 100K/yr vs say $150K/yr? Or if you have 95% PTA membership vs 100%?
To Whom Much Is Given Much Is Required
LOL
April 28th, 2011
1:25 pm
@Let’s Be Real: You are so right. It is definitely a lie! As long as the old “guards” remain in Gwinnett you will never see any change for the better. School Choice will not be an option for many years. People need to vote and some need to run for office.
Really amazed
April 28th, 2011
1:28 pm
Everythings for free hey!!!! If public schools get choice why shouldn’t private schools be allowed vouchers?????????????????????????? These parents will still be paying for the remainder of tuition because they decided this for their child. Yet public school parents want to be able to say what school your child goes to for free??? Really?
atlmom
April 28th, 2011
1:33 pm
thinking about it and reading some posts – okay – so ‘good’ parents who value education will always do what it takes to get their kids educated. So school ‘choice’ would still help those who are in those families (no matter whether they are poor or rich).
The question is – what do we do with the other kids? it’s so sad to allow for a kid to be punished and his/her whole life track planned out because he/she didn’t get parents who can help him/her. Not fair to the child and we as a community need to do something more than throw up our hands.
catlady: good start. the problem is that our government has no incentive to get people off being dependent on them. *sigh*
ItsTheParentsStupid
April 28th, 2011
1:44 pm
@atlmom
you answered your question…stop making people dependent. The other kids are ultimately not my responsibility. I hear the overall view that we must improve society because the bad have impacts on us all, okay and….blah blah blah. If we begin to cut off parents that can’t be responsilbe and help their own children…and stop feeling sorry for them…they might grow up and be parents.
Really amazed
April 28th, 2011
1:44 pm
This is the point!!! OUR GOVERNMENT HAS NO INCENTIVE TO GET PEOPLE OFF BEING DEPENDANT ON THEM. So, so sad but true! Who is truly just figuring that out???? Maybe we should all stop being so dependant on them. Wonder what would happen then? Time to step up and walk the walk instead of complaining and waiting for entitlement programs.
CobbParent
April 28th, 2011
1:45 pm
@What’s really Going On. Great way to read entirely too much into my comment. That is so typical nowadays for people to just jump on others for their opinions and read all sorts of horribleness into it (you must be a real joy to live with) – “you want your child to attend the school near your home so you must be a mean racist/classist/etc. isolated hater of everyone but you….wahhhh.” Of course I care. I also give back to my own community and others less fortunate. Believe me, I give MUCH (you should see my taxes). I am an educated individual who understands the impact – but I am also smart enough to see a knee-jerk reaction that is bound to fail. At the same time, only an idiot would say that their own child’s interests should take a back seat to another child’s – I would fight to the death for my child and I work my tail off to make sure he has advantages. There is no way I would ship my child across the county because I didn’t get drawn in the lottery to attend the school down the street – and maybe your plan is just that, to force people out of public education and into private so there is more room for people who cannot afford private? Please explain how shipping students across the county will magically attend to all of your concerns? Wouldn’t the time and money be better spent trying to make the “bad” schools better? Or are you saying that they cannot be made better? And if that is the case, why? Is the cause the students and their parents? And moving those students, randomly, to the school down the street from me does what? The “good” parents are already doing all they can to guarantee the success of their children regardless of where they live. The “bad” parents will just pick three “better” schools and once more put all of the burden on those schools to do something for their children and in the process bring a bit of the “bad” to the “good.”
I will make a leap like you did and say “gee, you must really hate the planet inasmuch as you are advocating that I travel all of those miles to get my child to school when he could attend the one nearby and cut down on the burning of fossil fuels.” You must really be a horrible person to hate the planet so much. You must also hate children because you want them to spend all of that time in the morning and evening traveling back and forth to/from schools outside of their home area. What a meanie. Leap…leap….leap
What's best for kids?
April 28th, 2011
2:34 pm
@Simply Me:
C’mon. Teachers get so few perks, we should be allowed to send our children to any school that we choose in the county that we work.
What's Really Going On
April 28th, 2011
3:26 pm
@Cobbparent – My apologies for “leaping” if that is how you perceived it. I did find some of your sarcasm humorous, however, so thanks for providing me with a few chuckles for the afternoon. It’s great that you give financially and your taxes reflect that. Many of us do –myself included. As for shipping a child across town for school, I agree with you… it’s a pain and a huge sacrifice to do so, and in many cases may not be the best solution for some children and families due to obvious time, and logistical issues. The humor I see in your point about trekking across town to a good school is that as you say, the “good” parents are doing all they can to improve (not guarantee, as nothing is certain in life — including the future prospects of your and my children for that matter given all of their advantages) is (and I hope I am not leaping here.. ) that you are assuming that all of the parents from clear across town actually want to and would be willing to make a trek across town to your neighborhood school. Like you, there are many who are not willing to do that and might view it as insane notion, especially when you factor in fuel costs, time lost and all the other negatives that go with this idea. So where you ask “Please explain how shipping students across the county will magically attend to all of your concerns?” — It absolutely does not address all concerns. As I stated– no silver bullets in education. It’s simply one more attempt to afford a few more kids access to what hopefully would be higher quality education. HOWEVER, for the few who are willing to make that sacrifice, who are we to stop these “good” parents for wanting to do all they can to better insure that their children are successful. In my view, all of these choice efforts are simply a means of making incremental improvements to a massive system that changes at a snail’s pace. I have yet to see any school choice effort that came along and devastated public education as we know it…
Can these low performing schools be made better?… sure. And if you want to assign blame, assign it to the adults in the building — not the children. All teacher, principals, and of course parents are not created equal. Until the adults in the room get their acts together, what would you say to that child who might be our generations next Einstein… Sorry Sally.. Sorry Johnny.. just sit tight, things will get better…. eventually. To me, that is insane.
Can we get the national deficit in check? — yep.. we sure can. The point is that “fixing” low performing schools and the national deficit are theoretically possible, but you and I both know that the solutions are not easy, nor are the solutions politically expedient. Personally, I’d love to never have to hear of another budget extension to keep government operational. Furthermore, I am sure that you know of neighbors who moved to your community because they wanted to be in a better school attendance zone, and so clearly they are good parents to make that move– right? And if they moved in the last few years, they probably took a major loss on the sale of their old home. However, have you ever asked them why they did not choose to stay in their crappy school zone and simply roll up their sleeves and try to make that school better? If you truly do not know the answer to…
1. “Wouldn’t the time and money be better spent trying to make the “bad” schools better?
2. Or are you saying that they cannot be made better? And if that is the case, why?
3. Is the cause the students and their parents?”
… ask the folks in your community who may have left a lower performing school why they did not stay and improve their old school as opposed to moving to the community you live in and perhaps contributing to overcrowding (if your school is in fact overcrowded).
For the record: I don’t view you as racist, classist, or any other “ist” –I view you no different than I view myself– HUMAN, and a good parent who deeply cares about the education of your child. Also I love my children so much that I happily drive them to school that is not around the block, and to various extracurriculars that are all across town. That is my choice. On that point about fossil fuels.. I do worry about that with all the driving I do. So I have wondered if I shouldn’t get an electric car, but i have a few issues with that. Electric cars must be recharged regularly with electric energy. Electric energy is produced presently with fossil and nuclear fuels. Solar power is not suited too well because most electric cars must be recharged during the night hours when the Sun is not shining. Who’d have thought that improving my local school would allow me to cut down on the burning of fossil fuels!
Smart remarks aside… Life is a bit of a lottery at times isn’t it… ? I suppose I just feel that we all can and should sacrifice more for the greater good. I don’t expect you or anyone else to agree with that point, it’s just how I feel about the matter.
What would be a good discussion is exactly what we feel we can REALISTICALLY and EXPEDIENTLY do to truly change the life trajectory of more of our country’s youth in a way that will be a bit more deterministic in terms of increased student achievement as the outcome. To do nothing is not an option. And clearly, throwing money at the problem isn’t the silver bullet either. We need both immediate and medium to long term solutions to address the issue of educating many more of our country’s youth at much higher levels that we currently are doing.
MAUREEN, you should consider starting a blog and simply ask a question of your audience that reads: “What are you personally willing to sacrifice to help to improve the educational outcomes of youth who are underserved and from homes and communities for which education is not valued?”
CobbParent
April 28th, 2011
3:54 pm
@What’s Really Going on – I don’t have time for a lengthy response….but….I agree that they should have access – if there is still room in a “good” school once the children in the local attendance area have been enrolled. My issue with your plan is that you seem to feel that it is okay if a certain percentage of children in an area lose the “lottery” to attend their neighborhood school. I disagree. You see, I already made my “trek across the county” to live in the area I chose, in part, because of the schools. If there is adequate space in my neighborhood school and a parent from across the county wants to drive her child here to attend then I have no problem with that.
I was particularly struck by what you said here: “It’s simply one more attempt to afford a few more kids access to what hopefully would be higher quality education.” It struck me because in your quest to help some students get access to a “higher quality education” you are proposing to take the same thing away from the students who live in the area and don’t win the lottery. The problem is that a “good” education, like healthcare and many other “commodities” is finite – there is only so much to go around. The world would be great if all of the children could attend the best schools….however, there has to be a best and a worst and the rest in-between and therein lies the unfairness. Life is unfair – and we all struggle every day to try to keep the scale tipped in our favor.
You say you drive your children to a school because you love them – and what happens when you are told they cannot attend that school anymore even though you are willing to drive them? I am sorry, but the lottery you propose doesn’t sound much like “choice” to me when it includes the possibility that people in the attendance zone are not free to choose that school. I made my school choice when I bought my home – others are free to do the same. I agree that we need solutions – the problem in this country today is that we seem to only consider those solutions that take from one to give to another.
Lynn
April 28th, 2011
5:54 pm
The school choice provision in my county Cobb, has resulted in a much higher rate of discipline issues and crime. Students at the high school level transferred to another high school and brought gang activity, higher theft rates (some even saying that there were better things to steal at the other school). This kind of behavior makes students, faculty and parents at the receiving school leery of such transfers.
The receiving school is also experiencing a decline in test scores directly attributable to the transferred students. When the decision was made to allow these transfers, safeguards should have been put into place to disallow transfers for those with discipline issues and test scores should not apply to the receiving school thus hurting that school’s AYP. I don’t know how to allocate the scores but it is not fair to bring down a receiving school’s level.
catlady
April 28th, 2011
7:28 pm
FBT, thanks. My youngest child was an upcoming 5th grader that first year. We got the first choice school, and I was providing her transportation when I got a job and we moved. I have never heard any feedback to how it worked out–it seemed obvious that transportation would be expensive, even though Clarke County is small. I am surprised that they stuck with it as long as they did.
madaboutmath
April 28th, 2011
7:41 pm
I agree with CobbParent. I often sub at Walton, which is a wonderful school. Parents sacrifice to have their children go to Walton by spending more money for less house or by living in apartments when they could otherwise afford houses. Walton actually has many students from lower SES because their parents are willing to sacrifice to live in the Walton district. I find that Walton has less problems with misbehavior than any of the surrounding schools, probably because their families put great value on education. It would be completely unfair to tell these people who have made sacrifices that their children cannot go to a school like Walton because others not willing to make the same sacrifices want to go there. If the school board tried to implement something like this in East Cobb, we would see an uprising of angry parents like we have never seen before. I know some will think I’m some snobby East Cobber who doesn’t want the riff-raff in my schools, but that is not the case. If that were true, I sure as heck would not be subbing for a living.
Dr. Craig Spinks/ Augusta
April 28th, 2011
8:10 pm
When given choices regarding school enrollments for their kids, concerned parents will choose to enroll their kids in schools whose teaching and learning conditions they believe to be favorable.
But favorable teaching and learning conditions should not be enjoyed only by those students whose parents opt for schools providing them. Rather, the establishment of such conditions provides the foundation upon which our belief in equal educational opportunity for all is based.
When will some entity file suit alleging the denial of equal educational opportunity on the grounds that a school’s/school system’s disruptive and abusive climate preempted the development of favorable teaching and learning conditions?
EducationCEO
April 28th, 2011
9:02 pm
@D Believe it or not, that’s exactly what happened in Indiana. That is how I (and sister, cousins) ended up going to to school in the suburbs. Some kids who lived in more affluent areas ended up going to school in the urban/city area. It had to be done because the federal government said so. You know what else? It worked. I am still friends with the (majority) white classmates to this day. Never once did anyone (students, teachers, or parents) make me feel as though I/we did not belong there. And we, or ‘them’ as you stated, do support our schools. When we try to get help from schools/district, they pretty much ignore us unless our child is playing a sport. This is the exact reason that I maintain a solid paper trail,,to demonstrate how the district has failed to provide resources, after repeated requests. The bottom line: The majority of the White people moved out of South and Shiloh once large numbers of Blacks started moving in. The numbers do not lie. And now the Gwinnett BOE feels it’s ok to ignore our kids and our concerns since they’ve already won the Broad Prize…yep, they keep building on top of our school instead of making plans to relieve overcrowding. That’s how little Wilbanks thinks of us. And yes, I did vote in the school board election.
@TonyaC If you read charter school law, as I did for almost 3 years, there are rules governing attendance at charter schools. They cannot just accept all the kids who live near the school. The only exception would probably be if an existing school voted to become a charter. In case you didn’t know, there are ways to get around the rules/laws. Georgia is a perfect example of that. And as far as transportation, charter applicants are supposed to answer whether they will provide transportation for students. If they answer ‘no,’ then they have to explain (in detail) how NOT providing transportation will not create a barrier to access for the intended population. Depending on where the school is located and who runs the board/district, again, some can get around this. Example: Gwinnett Charter School of Math, Science, and whatever. First 2 years they did not offer transportation, even though they had the resources to do so. Some charter groups have been denied because the district/State BOE didn’t think they would be able to provide transportation…even if parents signed agreements stating they would get the kids there. I was in the charter community for almost 3 years, so I rarely speak on things I know nothing about.
Joe Clark
April 29th, 2011
6:19 am
Your solution is quite simple actually. Every school should have open enrollment. As a parent, you pick #1, #2, & #3 schools for your child to attend. If you do not pick one, your closest proximity school is automatically picked on your child’s behalf and you don’t have a #2 or #3 choice. The information is entered into a database with all of the schools, and the program will generate the attendance lists pulled starting with the closest domicile to the school moving outward in a draft, and it really doesn’t make any difference which school leads in the draft and can be chosen randomly. If you have an address, you have coordinates that can indicate who is closest.
This will solve many problems including outside enrollment and localized priority while at the same time doing away with this absurd lottery concept that in some way has become justifiable all in the name of fairness. If you want fair, I’m quite certain if you wait around long enough, it will come into town, and you can go to the fair.
A few final thoughts: 1) People will generally follow an incentive, which most of the time involves money. If you want to foster and cultivate a particular community behavior, you must make sure that your incentives are geared to achieve your desired objective. For example, the Free or Reduced Lunch Program is an absolute joke when I know emphatically that 400 out of 850 kids in my very affluent community are on free or reduced lunch. The point is, people will modify their behaviors and conditions to achieve the desired objective, in this case, to receive food for free on behalf of their child when in fact, they can better afford it than I can. 2) While I am not personally responsible for anyone’s child but my own, as a community and a society, we all bear some responsibility for the children in it. Why? Because if you don’t pay to make the necessary adjustments in a child’s behavior in its most influential age to step up to the plate and do the right thing regardless of their home environment, we as a society will pay an enormous price and pay dearly somewhere down the road whether that be in the form of incarceration or the assault or death of a loved one at their hands – all because it wasn’t our responsibility. These children didn’t make these choices from the onset. 3) This whole concept of “…;all students can learn at or above grade level…” is absolutely laughable. The sooner we get the dysfunctional DOE out of the education business, the better off we’ll all be. That’s a whole another topic I could spend hours talking on that revolves around funding priorities.
Dr. Craig Spinks/ Augusta
April 29th, 2011
6:51 am
The educracy uses the “divide and conquer” approach to pit teachers against parents, teachers against administrators, Blacks against Whites, and rich against poor for the financial benefit of the educrats and to the detriment of our kids and our future.
So long as we concerned teachers, parents, administrators, and other community members allow the educrats to divide us, we will be unable to build those partnerships necessary to provide favorable teaching and learning conditions in our schools.
Dr NO
April 29th, 2011
10:29 am
LOL
April 28th, 2011
1:25 pm
LOL is right. We have the New Guard running Clayton County schools. Is that what you meant?
Tonya C.
April 29th, 2011
11:05 am
EducationCEO:
Have fun with that. I just decided to vote with my feet and moved into a Gwinnett cluster that I liked. My son went to an independent charter, and they are now on the verge of closing because it is expensive to run. I’ve not read the law, but I’ve lived the experiments and their results. What you are proposing is expensive and burdensome and I don’t see it happening. But good luck.
Reality Check
April 29th, 2011
1:19 pm
It is truly disgusting to see how many people actually believe that the only way to achieve an educated public is through the mechanism of government schools. One need only look around at our society to see that this is absolutely the WORST way to achieve that goal. I am fully in support of a well-educated society. That is exactly why I want the government out of the business entirely. I believe that everyone needs good healthcare and that is why I believe the govenrment needs to get completely out of that too.
All government is is a collection of people with the power to steal from other people and use force to achieve goals that may or may not be supported by the citizenry. In the end though, they are just people. Businesses are people too. Individuals are people. The difference is that when a business or an individual performs a service for someone they must get their payment through VOLUNTARY means rather than stealing it. This means that the customer can go elsewhere. This is true even for charitable organizations in that if they are not achieving goals that meet up with contributor desires, they won’t get any contributions. Failure is punished and success is rewarded. In a free market, this is the way it is. Not so with government, where failure is typically rewarded and monies cannot be witheld.
I believe in freedom. I believe that individuals can solve their problems far better than government can, and I have history on my side. There is no freedom in education.
I attended private schools, not government schools. My parents were forced to pay twice while the quality of education in government schools declined year after year. I received scholarships because I worked hard and earned them and they assisted with costs. There is certainly no reason why charity could not and would not play an important role in a fully private system of education.
You folks love to deny that your neighbors are being stolen from to pay for your kid’s education. You like to hide behind concepts like the “social contract” and ideas like ‘you believe everyone should be educated don’t you?”. Its all a bunch of crap and you know it. You don’t want the costs of YOUR kid’s education to cut into your vacation budget, your housing budget, your clothing budget, your big screen TV budget, etc.
I support freedom and liberty while you justify theft. My moral position is sound. I will happily contribute (and currently do) to educational institutions that actually educate children. That is not the government system for which I am forced to pay.
Really amazed
April 29th, 2011
4:20 pm
@Reality check, careful. You might offend someone. The truth always does!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Reality Check
April 29th, 2011
4:58 pm
It may offend, but it never manages to sink in.
Really amazed
April 29th, 2011
7:25 pm
I laugh at these post. I have made several over the years about public education. I thought everyone was so thrilled with there precious child’s public schools Why would any of you want to switch?????? Georgia public education is so great I thought!!! Remember, GPS curric. is the same throught the entire state! CRCT is mandatory throughout the entire state. Same testing, same approach must take place unless it is NOT gov’t funded!
MrLiberty
April 29th, 2011
11:12 pm
Virtually every post expresses some measure of frustration, disgust, displeasure, disdain, anger, disappointment, and every other negative emotion and feeling you can imagine might be applied to the myriad of things the government school system CONTINUES to do wrong or to upset their supposed customers. And yet the FEAR of any REAL change is so thick you can cut it with a knife.
It is the fear of the unknown. It is the fear of questioning authority. It is the fear of making mistakes. It is the fear of upsetting an entity that they perceive to be filling a parent role (the state). It is the fear of personal responsibility. It is the fear of having to be honest with oneself about the poor choices they blindly made regarding the education of their children. It is hard to imagine that any of that fear is worse than the fear of just what horrible thing the schools will do next, what horrible thing might happen to their children in the care of the government system, or what they have been missing out on from either an education standpoint or even a relationship standpoint with their parents (something homeschooling has the potential to foster in abundance). I guess everyone needs to make their choices. It would be nice however if folks would stop criticizing those who promote private and charitable alternatives with arguments that focus on everyone else’s children EXCEPT THEIR OWN. It is always someone else’s kids who will be harmed by choice and freedom. It is always someone else’s kids who won’t get educated, and so on. Either you are willing to stand up for your opinions and choices regarding your own child for a change or you are not. Sometimes I wonder if these parents actually care about their own children or if like the Boddhisatva, they are always interested more in helping others to enlightenment while never having the courage to take the necessary steps for themselves.
Big Mama
April 30th, 2011
5:49 pm
I’ve lived in San Francisco and witnessed the “beauty” of school choice first-hand…. parents that cannot afford private school move from the city in droves once their children reach school age. Those who cannot afford to move suffer the most. Consequently, most suburban Bay area school districts have great schools and parents that appreciate the education their children are receiving because they know what the alternative is.
Big D
May 2nd, 2011
3:48 am
I just want the same programs at my Gwinnett school that My friend’s kids get at the Alpharetta school that they attend. We don’t have after school programs at all, and this is the first year that we have had a PTA in the last 3 years. We aren’t the rich section of town, and our parent involvement is extremely high. I can’t afford Greater Atlanta at $9000 a year. I graduated from there in the late 70’s. It is a fantastic School, but I, as a single mom, can’t afford it.