Good vs. bad teachers: Who decides and how?

Cindy Lutenbacher

April 12th, 2011
10:57 am

I can say one thing for certain: using students’ standardized test scores as part of the measure of good vs. bad teaching is the utter opposite direction we must go. Test scores primarily correlate with the SES of a school, with student placement in classes, with numbers of students with special needs, with numbers of students for whom English is a second language, with class sizes, with family ability to pay for test prep, and with a host of other factors that have nothing to do with teachers who really care about students and their education. I’ll take a teacher who goes the extra mile for our children over high test scores any day of the week.

Thankfully, my youngest has had remarkably caring and excellent teachers in DeKalb schools, and her schools have not been ones that are considered high scoring schools. But she’s getting what she needs. This standardized performance rating of teachers runs the grave risk of further decimating the ranks of outstanding teachers. It’s lunacy.

Dr. John Trotter

April 12th, 2011
11:06 am

This will be a complete mess, a colossal failure. Mark my words.

We're out!

April 12th, 2011
11:08 am

Personally I think we as parents and students (the stakeholders) should grade the teachers based on communication, relevant teacher methods and a host of other classroom techniques….. much the way they grade our kids. If the teacher is any good and is able to teach kids in a meaningful manner then they get a good grade. I have taken graduate level classes and the school actually sent an evaluation after the class for the teacher. The teachers we are now seeing on the High school level are a mixed bag… some are excellent (good organizational and communication skills) and some are just bad (spend their time going to tribunals instead of learning effective classroom management techniques). This should be done for all or our teachers… test scores don’t tell us anything and they are at the mercy of a score that does not indicate their teaching effectiveness. If teachers knew they were being evaluated by parents and students and more like what the business world requires then we might get the poor teachers to either step up to being better or get out.

David Sims

April 12th, 2011
11:11 am

Have the former students take a post-graduation test on the academic subjects they were taught in school, and let us see how well they do.

You don’t need to go to school AT ALL in order to have a menial trade and be a good person. Children were growing into productive adults before the United States existed, and before the Roman Empire existed. Schools are for teaching reading, writing, and arithmetic on levels ranging from the basics to the very advanced. Whoever expands the role of schools beyond that is social engineering, and, like any sort of engineering, you have to know the subject before you can expect good results.

Leftists are ego-maniacal, arrogant narcissists who think that they are such experts in social engineering that they would get good results from their “interventions,” if only people would [put their excuses here]. They’ve had fifty years in which to prove their effectiveness, and all they have proved is that they are no more effective now than they were fifty years ago.

They are no more qualified to twiddle with people than they’d be to assemble an old-fashioned pocket watch from parts scattered across a table, though that occupation would keep them busy at lower cost and prevent them from doing nearly as much harm.

teacher&mom

April 12th, 2011
11:11 am

Words fail me…. I’m so weary of the “Rhee & Gates have all the answers” crowd. I’m tired of trying to be heard above the business reform crowd. I’m tired of trying to sound the alarm about the future of more testing all in the name of accountability. Weary to the bone.

Your comments about Lifo sounding like Lipo are spot on…We are wasting our energy and resources on individuals and reforms that are superficial and irrelevant. But what the heck….it all “looks” good on paper and it gives the “appearance” of real achievement and success. If in the event it doesn’t provide the desired results, just blame it on the teachers and their unions. Works like a charm every.single.time.

The General

April 12th, 2011
11:12 am

Dr. J.T. is absolutely correct in his assessment.

Dunwoody Mom

April 12th, 2011
11:14 am

You know – it’s really not that hard to pick out ineffective teachers and effective teachers I don’t really like the terms “bad” and “good” here) and it has nothing to do with standardized test scores, or whether they are “mean” or “nice”. If a parent is truly involved with their child’s school and their children’s education, well, we pretty much “know” the teachers. With the online grading and assignment systems available, we can track our own children’s progress while at the same time see how they are performing against their peers. We can judge the amount and type of work teachers are providing.

I’ve been lucky that my children can “survive” the bad teachers, but not all students are capable of this. Principals know who the ineffective teachers are. The problem is that they are powerless in getting rid of these teachers. With the number of effective teachers who are out of jobs, I hope this new legislation will allow school systems to rid themselves of those individuals who really do not have any reason to be in the teaching profession.

Cris

April 12th, 2011
11:17 am

As a teacher with 15+ years experience, my problem with this bill is how many experienced teachers with ADVANCED degrees (paid more according to how much education they have recieved) will be let go so the counties can save money by keeping the inexperienced (lower salaried) teachers….seems like an end-run to me….

Tad Jackson

April 12th, 2011
11:18 am

You can teach your fanny off all day long and all week long and all semester long and all year long, but it’s up to the students to study and discuss the topics in class and perform well, or not, on the tests and final exam. I cannot grab their hand and help them mark down the wrong, right, or maybe answer. You know, just can’t do that.

So here’s how to rate the performance of a teacher …

1. Come into my classroom and sit down and watch me teach for at least an hour
2. Look at my tests
3. Look at the sheets I design that explain assignments or essays or other projects
4. Talk to me personally over a cup of real good coffee about what I’m up to in the classroom and how I’m feeling about anything to do with kids and school and parents these days
5. Interview my students about me
6. Interview the parents of my students about me
7. Come along on a field trip and observe me in field trip teacher action
8. Ask other teachers to give you their impression of me as a teacher

But wait! That would reveal all the right information! And it would take too long! That would be exactly the way you could rate a teacher’s performance! Go figure!

http://www.adixiediary.com

Georga Kardashian

April 12th, 2011
11:19 am

I teach in Newton County and they want all teachers to be certified in as many subjects as possible. So if they have a need for you to teach Social Studies this year, that is what you will teach and next year they may need a Math teacher. You might not be well suited to teach math and have much experience in teaching Social Studies. So what standard will these teachers be measured by. I agree with Dr. Trotter in that we are trying to be frontrunners, but will likely end up with mud on our face. Can we use this same criteria to evaluate our administrators?

Robert Penland

April 12th, 2011
11:22 am

Thirty-nine years of teaching experience tell me that this bill is “for the birds”. Teachers have little control over the outcome of their teaching because ninety percent of the outcome is a result of home environment. Home and parental motivation being very important, if not pivital. Teachers will just teach the test to insure job security. This will result in good test scores, but bad education. The way to solve this problem is to quit letting illegal aliens in our schools; I myself have had as many as eight students who could neither speak or understand English enough to be educated. Stop building schools to house illegal immigrants and giving them free and reduced-cost lunches. We should then have enough money to educate students, give teachers raises, and avoid laying off staff. Do you not realize that good teachers will transfer out of transitional schools to avoid these artificial and unfair standards of success?

APS Teacher

April 12th, 2011
11:31 am

In a system like APS, where it is a matter of public record that adminstrators regualrly harass and intimidate their teachers to get them to change answers on standardized tests, fudge attendance records, or write “Go to Hell” memos to the GBI; how can we even CONSIDER using the evaluations completed by these people to make firing decisions?

Martha

April 12th, 2011
11:33 am

Until the parental support for education is factored in—do you help your child with his/her homework? Do you insist your child study regularly? Is your child at school every day, prepared and ready for the day’s work/activities? Do you attend teacher conferences when you are invited? Do you attend Open Houses? Does your child have excessive absences because “I just couldn’t get out of bed and get them there?” really doesn’t cut it as an excuse for your child’s being out of school. Do you encourage/require your child to read? Do you support–in your actions, words and attitude—the school and the teachers? Do you think academics are more important than athletics? Do you make sure your child is home and asleep at a reasonable hour, EVERY NIGHT? Or do you let him/her roam the streets with the thugs and hos?

Until the parents act like parents and suport the school and all that it stands for, there is no legislation, no teacher ratings, no merit pay, no nothing that will improve our schools.

And as sad as it is, a big help would come in tying entitlements to a child’s behavior, attendance and performance at school. You gotta hit’em where it hurts to succeed today. Too many of these parents don’t understand being responsible parents.

Political Mongrel

April 12th, 2011
11:36 am

@Ted: I agree totally. But as long as we have administrators who decide that a teacher is incompetent because he doesn’t jump totally into the Fad Of The Year, good teachers are still at risk for dismissal for meaningless reasons. I once had a principal who downrated me because I didn’t start every class with a recitation of an Essential Question from the board and didn’t feel that graphic organizers needed to be in students’ hands every for every single class. And when the next principal came in, he snorted and told me not to bother, and he gave me excellent ratings based on what I and my students produced.

One reason many, many teachers distrust the current onslaught of so-called ‘accountability’ measures and ‘merit pay’ is because they have seen their misuse and abuse over and over. Everything that comes down the pipe that’s the Great New Thing stays a little while, and the next Great New Thing takes over. Few people seem to take into account that the Great New Things often reach here after they’d long been abandoned by their originators as ineffective or replaced by another’s Great New Thing.

And to be honest, one problem for older, more experienced teachers is that they have seen so many fads come and go. They have a pretty good idea what will work and what is meaningless. They are the ones who are more likely to resist meaningless change and who will suffer for it in their evaluations.

Paulo977

April 12th, 2011
11:37 am

“Stop building schools to house illegal immigrants and giving them free and reduced-cost lunches” Sooner or later I knew this poor old scapegoat would be offered as a reason for what is being peddled as EDUCATION in our schools!!!

Lisa

April 12th, 2011
11:40 am

There are “Good” and “Bad” teachers, unfortunately. There are teachers that prepare engaging, interesting lesson plans that capture the imagination and interest of children of school age. There are teachers that pay attention to the patterns of their students test and homework scores and make an effort to keep in touch with the parents. There are teachers that make children feel welcome in their classrooms and a part of a community of students. Then there are teachers that feel they are overworked, underpaid, and are just not emotionally or intellectually available to their students. Teaching is about making the connections of real life, history, and the ever encroaching future come into focus for these students. It takes more than a monotonous lecture every day to get students interested in learning. It takes innovative thinking to come up with ways to catch and hold the attention of a society of children who are seemingly all at some stage of ADHD because they, like all students before them, don’t have the mental daftness to sit and be lectured for eight hours a day only to go home to complete homework that they have no idea how to correctly process. I am an adult and if at work, there is a boring meeting, I am thinking about 20 different things, dinner, sports, baths, homework, family time; how do we expect our children to have to endure this. Two words to the teachers out there “Hands On”- this is how 70-80% of people learn best. Get them up and get them involved in the process of learning. Be excited to teach them and they will be excited to learn from you. To the “Really Bad” teachers who feel that it is “their” classroom- you need to go somewhere far, far away from teaching because the classrooms are the sole property of the children who enter each day and children like adventure, drama, and activity so get with “their” program.

Dr. John Trotter

April 12th, 2011
11:41 am

I openly campaigned against the Quality Education Act (QBE) in 1985 and 1986 when everyone was singing its praises. (I ran for State Representative against Bill Lee, the Chairman of the House Rules Committee and longest-serving House member at tht time.) Jo Frank Harris’s administration had all the answers to school reform. Oh…QBE was going to change everything. Right. I told everyone that it was going to stand for Quit Being an Educator or Quit Brutalizing Educators! All of the GTEP (STEP in Fulton and ATEP in Atlanta) mess came from QBE. All of the posting of standardized test scores came from QBE.

The State has constantly tweaked QBE to no avail. Then came the A+ Program under Roy Barnes. Again…no improvement. Just more headaches.

Now we are going to let the likes of an educational failure and charlatan, Michelle Rhee, to have more terrible influences over some so-called school reform in Georgia. She came to education through Teach for America. Rhee taught three years for Education Alternatives, Inc. in Baltimore. A study on this private, pro-profit company, after three years, found that its nine schools, in the area of test scores, “have shown no more improvement than those schools in the system” (Atlanta Journal, 6-26-95, p. C4). Rhee apparently claimed that her children’s reading scores jumped astronomically but Baltimore doesn’t seem to have the records to prove this.

The mayor of Washington, D. C. just plucked her to be the superintendent based on, I believe, the recommendation of the mayor of New York City. Wow. Talking about being a novice and being puffed out! The Bible warns against appointing “novices” as “elders” because they will become “puffed up.” This puffed-up Michelle Rhee is a disaster. She was a disaster in Washington, D. C. Most observers believe that she, with her slash and burn tactics, was the main reason that the Wasington, D. C. mayor went down in ignoble defeat at the next election.

Michelle Rhee knows nothing about public education and yet our naive and imbecilic legislators are following her off the educational cliff.

To APS teacher

April 12th, 2011
11:42 am

You are right on the ethics of the teaching profession.

Dr. John Trotter

April 12th, 2011
11:43 am

I take back the word “imbecilic.” I’ll just say “naive.” They are truly naive, if they think that this will work.

Dr NO

April 12th, 2011
11:43 am

The only issue I see is some sorry no-good teachers whining about discrimination. If Rhee can dodge that bullet she will be fine.

LIFO doesnt work in public entities as one is basically choosing from the bottom of the barrel and truth be told probably about 65% of all public employees should be canned…no questions asked.

I look forward to Rhees slash and burn approach.

Soon to be former science teacher

April 12th, 2011
11:45 am

The current teacher evaulation system is a joke. In our system, they introduced the Class Keys system as a potential replacement. It required extensive documentation of lesson plans, relations to standards, use of data-driven instruction, etc. in addition to multiple in-class observations by administration. To people who weren’t already doing these things (that in our system are required) it seems like a lot of documentation. But it really isn’t. And it seems like a much better way to back up claims that “So and so is a bad teacher.” – Our system set the idea of Class Keys aside for now… too much money and work to implement. I just want to be assessed on my teaching ability, rather than if there’s some paper balls on my classroom floor.

robert thomson

April 12th, 2011
11:53 am

i am so freaking sick and tired of public education and all these politicians think they know how to run schools better than we teachers. I’m done, finished.Rhee has no idea what she is talking about. … My plan is to continue my career somewhere else, but it WILL NOT be in a public school. I no longer want to be a part of a failing system. My nursing degree will be very valuable to me.

john

April 12th, 2011
11:54 am

Bad idea. Something needs to be done, but basing the decisions soley on performance is not the answer. I’ve been laid off from a job because of my salary and if they had asked me to cut 10% or 20%, etc., I might have done it. Teachers don’t have this option, period. Now you have teachers who will be let go b/c of their salary (they’ll say it is performance related), so they can hire a young teacher at 1/2 the salary- with no experience. Dollar wise, this is an excellent move, but in the long term, all you are doing is churning students in an out. Experience/years of service, should factor into the equation b/c no parent wants the “1st year or 2nd year” teacher. What happens when a teacher is let go after 20 years and is in the top “tier” of pay? Where is that teacher going to go to teach again? Another school may want her, and if the teacher stays in the state of Georgia, then their salary is based on years of service within the state. That’s not negotiable. This could prohibit the teacher from being hired somewhere else b/c they can’t “legally” stay in a school system w/o getting the 20-year pay. They may be “too costly” to hire at this point.
One of the major issues with teacher pay is the amount of degrees they can get to raise their pay, and now a days, it is “simpler” to get the degree b/c it is online. I’m not saying the online course is easier, but time wise, it helps the teachers a lot. Each degree provides a substantial bump in pay. Some of the degrees are for administrative roles, and you’ve got a lot of teachers holding degrees who are NOT in administration, but getting the bump in pay. Of course, they have to have this degree to get the admin job. . . . . . Maybe it’s these degrees that shouldn’t have the big “booost” in pay to the next level? You’ve got teachers who also have no options on where they can teach. You teach in South GA or North GA and there aren’t other places to teach (not as many schools).

This whole issue is much more complicated than just “performance” based. Simply put, we’ve got too many teachers running around who don’t need to be churned like the corporate world. They don’t get “bonuses” for “great” performances, so they shouldn’t get penalized for “poor” performance. Also, they have no control over who they teach either.

betty

April 12th, 2011
11:55 am

As a veteran teacher, I will take responsibility for my classroom teaching and environment. Do not even attempt to tie my profession to a group of students who have no parents to help them at night or even worse, no parents who do not care. We have parent night and it is just a large gathering of faculty in our rooms. Noone shows up. Parents are responsible for the education as much as I am. Teachers have them for only 8 hours a day. Parents have had them since day one.

Mikey D

April 12th, 2011
11:59 am

@Maureen
If, during your conversation, Ms. Rhee says that she would evaluate teachers based on anything other than test scores, then that’ll be a pretty good indication that she’s lying. (That, and the fact that her lips are moving!) Her obsession with test scores while in DC is well-documented.
A truly comprehensive evaluation system using multiple means is what is desperately needed, but also what won’t happen. Why? Because it will mean more work for administrators, of course. Many districts in Georgia are already backing off Class Keys because the administrators have begun complaining about the extra work they’ll have to do. Amazing how no one was concerned when it meant extra work for the teachers, but now that the administrators are being inconvenienced, well we just can’t have that.
What it will boil down to is test scores. We’ll get a nice, neat little printout that will tell us who is a good teacher and who is not. What a shame for the disadvantaged kids who need great teachers. Who’s going to want to teach those kids?
Michelle Rhee is a proven liar and fraud. She is a political opportunist of the worst sort.I hope that you’ll ask her some hard-hitting questions and try to pin her down on some of this bogus stuff she’s throwing out.

Dunwoody Mom

April 12th, 2011
11:59 am

@bettty – If you only want to teach children who have strong parental support, then I would suggest a career change. To say that you cannot do your job because of the lack of parental support is a cop-out. There are plenty of teachers who teach in inner-city schools, in ESOL schools who are dedicated, effective teachers.

Lynx

April 12th, 2011
11:59 am

@Tad Jackson. You have the right idea in holistic assessment. Who says every teacher needs annual evaluation? Unless a teacher changes grades, schools, or districts, or is being evaluated for an award, promotion, disciplinary action, or improvement, every three years should be sufficient to THOROUGHLY assess teacher performance. Yeah, if you really want to you can collect test data, but use a five year moving average of scores to look at trends, and compare the trend indicator with all the others in the same school teaching the same class or grade, to rule out across school differences, as well as comparing with every teacher in the district or state.

John Galt

April 12th, 2011
12:00 pm

Who decides what a good accountant is? Or an attorney? Or a sales clerk? Or a sanitation worker? Or a nuclear engineer?

The boss, that’s who. Teachers will become just like the rest of the community under this bill. Imperfect, but better than LIFO, which rewards tenured but unmotivated teachers.

Lynx

April 12th, 2011
12:02 pm

Here’s an assessment tool being used in Virginia…

http://www.teachstone.org/about-the-class/

John Galt

April 12th, 2011
12:05 pm

Dr. John Trotter -

I’m afraid that the product being produced by the public school system does not warrant allowing nothing but educators continue to assess themselves. More and more money is poured in and the resultant product gets poorer and poorer.

I don’t have all of the answers but continuing on the same path is worse than “naive”.

Raquel Morris

April 12th, 2011
12:05 pm

I’ve been following this blog for a while now and it’s become more and more apparent that a vocal group of teachers don’t want to be evaluated on anything at all. I agree that standardized test scores are not the way to do it, but come on. There has to be some metric available for determine effective and ineffective teachers.

Like any other professionals, teachers should be rewarded when they do well and sanctioned when they do not. Please convince me, a product of public schools and a parent, that you DO NOT believe that you’re entitled to keep your jobs regardless of your performance.

Too many of the teachers on here have the mistaken notion that the classroom is about them. It’s not.

madaboutmath

April 12th, 2011
12:07 pm

@Dr. JT–I like “imbecilic” better, but I guess even you must be somewhat politically correct.

Tonya C.

April 12th, 2011
12:11 pm

Dunwoody Mom:

And look at the turnover in those schools and the quality of teachers they generally receive. It is exhausting, backbreaking work and difficult to do for the long haul (especially for younger educators). To discount the importance of parental involvement is to turn a blind eye to the fact that schools with higher SES do better than Title I schools and the like.

And principals are far from powerless to get rid of ineffective teachers. They have the same power to hire as they do to fire. All they need to do is document and follow protocol, and they can have a teacher removed within a semester. I’ve worked in HR for a school district and have seen it done multiple times. Many are just to chicken-s&it to do it or not concerned enough about the students to make it happen.

Paulo977

April 12th, 2011
12:11 pm

Dunwoody Mom
“If you only want to teach children who have strong parental support, then I would suggest a career change” Oh absolutely …agree 100%

Jan

April 12th, 2011
12:12 pm

I have had students who rave about a teacher while others think he/she is the worst ever (I am sure I am included). I spoke with administrators who assessed teachers solely on their ability to “not rock the boat.” I have had discussions with a principal who praised a teacher while an assistant principal thought he/she was nothing special. I have had discussions about colleagues where professional opinions ran the gamut. I taught in a school system with very involved and outspoken parents but any issue that negatively involved their own child made their objectivity disappear (especially when their child did not make the team!). The problem is the absence of objective (academic) criteria. I admit, the evaluation of the performance of a school system (teacher evaluation is not the equivalent!) is not a simple issue so just blame the teacher for the present mess and it will go away! There is no fail-save solution. The best we can do is to make sure that we implement and enforce firm and high (academic) standards that guarantee that the best prepared professionals will teach the students. Similar firm and high standards should apply to administrators and staff in the school systems. Then allow these people to do their job and evaluate them within a reasonable time frame (good things will not happen overnight). The criteria for these evaluations need to be established by these professionals in conjunction with the community. School systems that don’t do well can learn from school systems that do perform. However, I predict several entities that will be a problem during this process: politicians, uneducated or uninterested parents (they may also simply be overworked), underperformers present in the system, athletic departments/schools of education, and available money (you have to pay those capable professionals!) among them.

Lynx

April 12th, 2011
12:12 pm

I guess the CLASS assessment in the link I posted is the same Georgia had as CLASS Keys. It has been endorsed by the University of Virginia Currey College of Education, and is actually implemented for school districts by the University. I know in one district, it has been used to remove a tenured math teacher whom parents had been complaining about for years and the district math coordinator had tried to remove. Without the documentation, this wasn’t possible. With CLASS observations and reports conducted by a third party, it became clear that she was not teaching effectively. The lower test scores in her class on state testing were only an indicator, because many teachers in that district had low average test scores, but not all were judged ineffective teachers.

Again, why would every teacher need an annual evaluation? After the first couple of years, a teacher should only be evaluated every 3 years. This would relieve some of the paperwork for teachers and possibly provide employment for third party assessors.

Mikey D

April 12th, 2011
12:13 pm

@Raquel:
I’ve yet to see any teachers who say that they don’t want to be evaluated on anything at all. That’s a foolish statement on your part. I welcome evaluation because I work hard and I do a fine job. The complaint from educators has been and continues to be the fact that we have consistently been shut out of the discussion. You want some ideas on teacher assessment? Ask teachers. The ideas we could come up with would be more accurate, more comprehensive, and more fair than anything our wonderful “leaders” have bandied about. And I believe that you’d find a teacher-developed evaluation system would actually be more rigorous. I want my colleagues to work as hard as I do, and my standards are very high. I’m all for weeding out the non-hackers. But to obsess on a faulty system of multiple-guess tests the way Michelle Rhee has done is asinine and foolish.

Tonya C.

April 12th, 2011
12:15 pm

And to have people amazed about the ‘product’ being produced by public schools when the ‘product’ being put into public schools is often sub-par astonishes me. Cultural and societal influences have changed, even distorted the quality of student entering public schools today. Anyone who says different is in denial.

Tad Jackson offered up what many teachers would love to be the grading mechanism of their performance. But administrators are not going to take the time to actually GRADE the performance of many teachers on a holistic level. They do snapshot views and assign ratings based on 15-minute samples maybe twice a year. Train the administrators to do what exists NOW correctly, and we could all get off this hamster wheel of change and teachers could get back to the business of teaching.

ak_cov

April 12th, 2011
12:17 pm

Georgia Kardashian, I teach in Newton Co. as well and we haven’t been told anything about multiple certifications… is this a middle school push?

Dunwoody Mom

April 12th, 2011
12:17 pm

@Tonya C – I know for a fact that Principals are at times powerless to rid his/her school of ineffective teachers.

No one is discounting parental involvement. Of course, it is very, very important. But there are children who for whatever reason, being raised by grandparents, parents do not speak english, etc., that, for whom, teachers are their lifesavers. This is nothing new for this generation. It has always been this way. If it is such a struggle for one to teach these students, then just don’t do it. Find something else to do. These children deserve someone in their life that is going to be their biggest cheerleader and in many cases, it is their teacher.

historydawg

April 12th, 2011
12:18 pm

Rhee is mesmerized by numbers and has no understanding of the historical purposes of public education in our democracy. She needs a little humanities education and a greater comfort with nuances which exist in the real world. It is a shame that corporate America and such ignorance are controlling the discourse in education today.
Do you really want students to evaluate the effectiveness of the teacher? Most students like the easy teachers and dislike the ones who challenge them. Most parents agree with whatever the students tell them. And because everyone went to school, everyone is an expert on what should be done in the classroom. Find a student and/or a parent who can see the big picture and appreciate rigor, even if it costs them a A. It is rare.

Below the City

April 12th, 2011
12:18 pm

Maureen, who is Michelle Rhee, why are you interviewing her, what has she to do with Georgia teachers, and who pays her ?

catlady

April 12th, 2011
12:19 pm

I hope you will ask Ms. Rhee some real questions about how SHE would have fared with LIFO. Given her problems (taping kids’ mouths shut) and her actually LESS than stellar scores, I imagine she would not have been kept if she had been under LIFO. I know around here she would have been on a PDP for sure!

Mid GA Retiree

April 12th, 2011
12:19 pm

I had a supervisor who once told me that to be successful, you should look on a task with a “how I can” attitude, rather than a “why I can’t” attitude. Teachers can be evaluated. However, the students must also be evaluated. It will take more than test scores to evaluate the student. Parental support will have to be taken into account for the student evaluation. Then, administrators will have to come to the realization that they will have to get out of their offices and into the classrooms for more than 5 minutes, or one hour, or even one day, to effectively rate a teacher. It will take a combination of administrator reviews, peer reviews, student evaluations, and yes, test scores, to come up with a teacher evaluation system. It will also have to be a work in progress, a system that in itself must be constantly reviewed for improvement.

Tonya C.

April 12th, 2011
12:19 pm

I think 360 reviews would alleviate some of the frustration for teachers too. It could give fair weighting to opinions of administration, faculty, staff, students, and parents. But again, that would require time and effort on the part of all parties and that may be difficult to come by.

mom2two

April 12th, 2011
12:20 pm

All of this reminds me of the blueberry story (which I’m sure you teachers have heard before).
http://teachers.net/gazette/JUN02/vollmer.html

Tonya C.

April 12th, 2011
12:25 pm

Dunwoody Mom:

Not they are not. Let me repeat: THEY ARE NEVER POWERLESS. The only exception being is if that teacher has connections in the school district, then administration is S.O.L. I’m over the the b.s. being fed to the general public that states otherwise. This ISN’T a union state. Any supervisor can fire any employee at will.

And I’m over that teachers are supposed to overcome all odds. Again, it’s not realistic for the long haul. Some kids will be saved, but others will inevitably be left behind. Teachers who work in your neck of the woods stay a heck of a lot longer than someone working in College Park, and the love of kids isn’t always why.

justbrowsing

April 12th, 2011
12:25 pm

@historydawg- Thank you!!!
I was thinking the exact same thing as I read the posts. I have encountered so many parents focused on the “grade” that they never took time to see how their child’s actions/ inactions played a role in their receiving a certain grade. Next, parents complain to the administrators because students complain. Finally, the administrators deem you as unable to get along with parents and students. I have seen this dione before. Adding rigor to anything academic in Georgia (K-12) results in that teacher being deemed difficult, non compliant, or “not a good fit” for teaching. Then we wonder about grade inflation.

Socrates

April 12th, 2011
12:28 pm

Sorry teachers…but standardized tests are the sole measure of whether a teacher is or is not doing their job. The standards (correct me if I’m wrong) are the “minimum” level of teaching expected during specific grade levels. So what is the PROBLEM???? Teach them the standards…they pass the test and you look terrific! Why is that so hard to understand? I give instructions all the time to employees and then have supervisors check to see that the task was accomplished. If the supervisor failed to teach and then check up on my employees I would fire them. Quickly!!! So why should a teacher be treated differently? Everyone should be accountable for their job.

Dunwoody Mom

April 12th, 2011
12:29 pm

Well, Tonya, we’ll just agree to disagree.

????

April 12th, 2011
12:29 pm

Hey Raquel Morris, if the “classroom is not about us (teachers)” then evaluate the students and leave us alone! Yeah right, won’t happen. It IS about us because we are the ones who deal with the kids every single day.

I have no problem with being evaluated and rewarded/reprimanded based on results of that evaluation but there is no easy fix and no easy way to do that, but more importantly there is no standard on which we are to be judged. Evaluating us on standardized tests, however, should be one of many ways but it certainly should be at the bottom of the list. Should my undergrad college professors be fired because I failed the GRE? Should parents be arrested and jailed because their kids get in trouble? Of course not!

dawgfan

April 12th, 2011
12:34 pm

Socrates, do you have employees who are 10 years old, born to drug addicted mothers, have no father, have never seen a book let alone read one, eat Cheetos for dinner, have been shot at, have shot at some one, or bring knives and other dangerous objects to the workplace? Do any of these fit the decription of your employees? If so, then I guess you are qualified to run your mouth about how easy teaching is.

Thanks.

????

April 12th, 2011
12:34 pm

Socrates, you are doing the same thing so many others do- you are comparing public education to the business world. It’s apples and oranges, and sad that I keep having to tell people that. You are equating a supervisor telling PAID employees to do something and evaluating their performance to a teacher trying like crazy to get a 15 yr old to give a flip about a test. NO COMPARISON! Please bring your “business world” mentality to my classroom and give it a try. I guarantee you won’t last a month. Please folks, stop trying to make a comparison between public educators and the corporate world. The comparisons don’t work. Two different animals, and the problem is the ones trying to fix the system are the ones who equate the two… time and time and time again…

jarvis

April 12th, 2011
12:34 pm

You create a standard performance evaluation system. That’s how you do it….same way every company on earth does it.

Raquel Morris

April 12th, 2011
12:36 pm

@Mikey D,

So, what are your thoughts on an effective teacher evaluation plan? I’ve seen some suggestions from other posters (360 evaluations, peer reviews and weighing parental involvement sound good). How about you? How would you design a system for evaluating yourself and your colleagues? How would you get that system implemented?

Instead of complaining that no one has asked for teacher’s input, get up from behind your computer and demand to be heard. Organize. Publish a blog. Put together a Facebook page. Lobby the elected officials who can implement the system you want.

Stop focusing on what you don’t like (test scores, anything related to Michele Rhee, etc.) and do the grassroots work to make your profession what you think it should be. Whatever you do, please don’t tell me that you don’t have the time to change your profession. If you do, you’re no better than the parents who “don’t have the time” to educate their children.

Mikey D

April 12th, 2011
12:37 pm

Socrates is another person who obviously knows everything there is to know about education because he went to school once.

historydawg

April 12th, 2011
12:39 pm

Corporate America can fire those who do not perform. Teachers cannot fire students, because education in a democracy is available to all, whether or not they appreciate it. This is why public education for all students is a uniquely American contribution to our global community. This is why people who rely on data fail to recognize human beings and why corporate America has so many problems understanding schools–because schools are institutions that are built upon cherished principles (equality, liberty, the preservation of the Republic, etc.), not supply and demand, not a bottom line.

sloboffthestreet

April 12th, 2011
12:39 pm

Oh my, “This is going to be a mess”,,,,, “We need parental support”,,,,, “The teachers work so hard”,,,,
Perhaps all the teachers and education associations can assemble to have a pity party. Oh wait a minute, they have this blog already. My bad,,, You people cry about parental involvment until you have it. Then you make the “You don’t know anything, your just a parent” face. The majority of you are overpaid, underworked CRY BABIES!!! As to Great Teachers with advanced degrees, the only reason I see the majority of educators having these so called advanced degrees is so they could suck more cash out of the system and demand people call them DOCTOR!!! What a joke! How about the majority get over your over inflated self importance and do what you are paid to do. Educate Georgia’s children. As to one comment about 90% of education happens at home. That is one comment on here I do agree with because what I have seen in six years, the majority of Georgia’s teachers couldn’t teach a dog to sit, nevermind have the ability and skills to educate a child. If you have a Georgia High School Diploma,,, Thank Your Parents!!!

Mikey D

April 12th, 2011
12:41 pm

@Raquel:
Would you like a dated list of every contact I’ve tried to make with leaders in this state? Guess how many times my requests have been honored? Zero. If you’ve got a magic formula for “demanding to be heard” that will somehow magically make these people start returning my calls, I’m all ears.
(Also find it humorous that you give me advice to get up from behind my computer and publish a blog or organize a facebook page. Irony, anyone?)

Raquel Morris

April 12th, 2011
12:42 pm

@Mikey,

No, it’s not ironic at all. I got what I wanted. Georgia’s teachers will no longer get preference during layoffs based purely on their length of service.

Fedup

April 12th, 2011
12:46 pm

I sometimes think Trotter has a screw loose, but he is on target with this topic…..

historydawg

April 12th, 2011
12:46 pm

How many arenas of life–work, family, play–are measured to be successful solely through multiple-chioce exams? How many businesses evaluate their employees using multiple-choice exams, much less multiple-choice exams of employees’ subordinates? The theoretical assumptions of Rhee, et al are skewed beyond the ability to recognize reality.

HS Public Teacher

April 12th, 2011
12:50 pm

SERIOUSLY,
Before any can decide what makes a “good” or “bad” teacher, you MUST define the job of the teacher.

The job description of a teacher has NEVER been defined. So many of you want to compare the corporate world to teaching (and I have done both), I KNOW that in the corporate world every job has a clear job description with specific duties.

Look at any teacher contract in the State of Georgia, and there is ALWAYS a final clause that says something to the effect that, “the teacher must accept all additional responsibilities as decided by the Principal.” In other words, this is an undefined position with duties that are created on the spot.

Before anyone deems me “good” or “bad” you must give me some explanation of what the heck you are looking for!

Mikey D

April 12th, 2011
12:51 pm

@Raquel:
I don’t know why you assume I disagree with you. I think layoffs should be performance based as well. I just happen to believe that performance should be measured by something a little more reliable than a poorly written multiple guess test. If you think that’s a reliable measure and you’re alright with ending someone’s career based on that one score while discounting every other factor that influences the education of a child, then you need to develop some depth to your character.

HS Public Teacher

April 12th, 2011
12:51 pm

@Maureen – PLEASE ask Rhee about my post above. I would love to hear her response!

Tonya C.

April 12th, 2011
12:51 pm

dawgfan:

Just one question:
Did you have my husband’s students from last year? Cause all those cases sound awfully familiar?;)

historydawg

April 12th, 2011
12:52 pm

@slob, surely you can understand why teachers seemingly complain so much. How many professions are under as much public scrutiny with so little compensation? Few people endure the entire population considering themselves to be an expert at their particular career/job. Maybe Mark Richt, but he gets paid well for his troubles. Few people endure such public ridicule from 13-year-olds and the adults who act like 13-year-olds. Teachers should be able to participate in the discourse about education, given that they live this every day. I am sure that teachers would not tell the doctor, electrician, etc. that they are wrong because their own children don’t particularly like said doctor, electrician, etc. Why must teachers be the only ones fighting against legislatures, corporations, etc., on behalf of the children?

Raquel Morris

April 12th, 2011
12:56 pm

@Mikey,

In my first comment I said that standardized test scores are not the way to evaluate teacher performance.

In fact, the bill passed yesterday only says that one measure of educator performance “may be” student academic performance.

mike

April 12th, 2011
12:58 pm

Between the governor, his buddies in the state legislature and all the teacher haters here, I suppose the status of public education will continue to slip. There might be some bad teachers as in all professions. Under the current climate how do you expect to maintain good teachers? It can’t be the money. It is more of this negative attitude towards them. A guy on wall street gets more respect when he steals millions of dollars compared to the way teachers are treated in this state.

Roach

April 12th, 2011
1:09 pm

Yes, there are bad teachers. I ran into one once. Every night my kid was bringing home piles of stuff as homework–stuff that was supposed to have been done during the school day. But my kid wasn’t doing it in school. I asked the teacher, “Well what is my kid doing in school all day?” The teacher replied, “I don’t know.” That was a bad teacher.
My kid’s test scores didn’t show it. We taught our kids at home to love reading. (That’s what my kid was doing–sneaking books from the classroom stacks and reading them whenever the teacher was gone for coffee or wasn’t paying attention.) My kid’s test scores were excellent, even if the busywork didn’t get done. But my kids’ good test scores were no reflection on the teacher.

Michael Moore

April 12th, 2011
1:13 pm

Last week, Mayor Bloomberg didn’t have much to say as he quietly dismantled his 75 million-teacher incentive pay experiment.

Begun in 2007 through 2010, the merit pay program involved 20,000 teachers in 200 high needs schools, and provided that teachers could receive $3000 in raises if they met their targets, which were based largely on state tests. Teachers could earn $1500 if their students showed improvement.

Harvard economist, Roland Fry, in his study of the experiment published as a working paper by the National Bureau of Economic Research, said, “If anything, student achievement declined.”

Using math and English test scores as the main indicators, researchers were surprised that middle school students were actually statistically worse off, as scores declined across the experiment.

Another study on the same experiment conducted by researchers at Columbia University concluded: “We find little evidence that the program led to an overall increase in student achievement or had any impact on a variety of other outcomes, including classroom activities, tutoring, or administrative decisions. Nor did the program reduce teacher turnover or improve the quality of the teaching pool within eligible schools.”

Barak Obama and Secretary of Education Arne Duncan are strong advocates of incentive programs, especially the Teacher Incentive Fund that funds local experiments. However, the research results keep pouring in.

The National Research Council of the National Academy of Sciences stated, “VAM (Valued added Measures) of teacher effectiveness should not be used to make operational decisions because such estimates are far too unstable to be considered fair or reliable.

The Educational Testing Service and the RAND Corporation have both recently said basically the same thing. RAND was succinct: “The research base is currently insufficient to support the use of VAM for high-stakes decisions about individual teachers or schools.”

You can imagine the influence this developing body of scholarship will have. Put charitably, Georgia has never been a state to let a few research reports stand in the way of great political sound bites and the irresistible pull of legislative “cures.”

William Casey

April 12th, 2011
1:19 pm

@ Tad Jackson: thanks for saying most of what I had to say. I’m retired now, but during my career, I CRAVED the kind of evaluation you suggest.

On seniority as the basis for retaining teachers during periods of layoffs. I have problems with this but have a caveat. There is a lot of data indicating high attrition rates among teachers (”good” and “bad”) during the first five years of teaching. Keeping this in mind, using any method of evaluating effective teaching runs the risk of increasing teacher turnover until a person is committed to the profession as a career. Just saying.

On evaluations of teachers by students and parents. I welcomed this as well. However, I’ve seen this data used selectively against teachers who have been targetted for dismissal… i.e…. a teacher receives 95 good evaluations and five bad ones. The good are ignored and the bad used as “documentation.” Happens in the “real world” of public education.

On comparing public education with the corporate world. This will be valid ONLY when corporations are required to hire anyone who walks in the door.

Dr. John Trotter

April 12th, 2011
1:30 pm

Some of you might perchance wonder why I act the fool many times. (Most of you, I am sure, don’t give a rat’s ass why I act any such way. I am not on your radar screen.) I often deal with imbecilic morons in the arena of public education. There are some fine administrators out there, but the ones with whom I deal are often times imbeciles, petty, small-minded, often incompetent, and mean-spirited. Then, you have these educational jackanapes like Michelle Rhee to come along. They are charlatans. If you investigate their claims, you find out that they are just educational Elmer Gantries. But, these legislators always fall for the latest messiah. They are led out into the desert by these false messiahs of education…only to find out when it is too late that they are perishing in this educational desert.

There is nothing new under the sun, no not one thing. All is vanity and striving after the wind, especially in the field of public education.

Tad Jackson

April 12th, 2011
1:32 pm

Mr. Casey … thank you … I had a principal (”Lurlene Brownlow” in A Dixie Diary) who did all of those things except come along on field trips. I think she just wasn’t as enthused about the National Infantry Museum and Soldier Center in Columbus as us guys were. And other places we loved to visit around the state. No problem.

Anyway, she did those things and I welcomed them and learned from them as a professional, and human being, and she was as firm and fair as any great boss I’ve ever had. So hugely supportive and encouraging. I was in the corporate world, too, before I became a teacher. Honestly, because of the way she handled herself she is sacred, in my opinion, and still doing her great work there.

Sure, she had only 50 kids and an assistant principal and only 8 teachers … but she evaluated in the ways I mentioned earlier. She up and did it. I know size of the group of charges is a consideration. But she did it that way and I’m grateful. I’m so grateful to her. Plus, she had a great sense of humor and wit. Something we can all use!

Teach on! Never give up!

tim

April 12th, 2011
1:40 pm

We all took tests when we were in school, and NO ONE blamed a teacher if we didn’t do well or pass them. It was OUR responsibility.

Today, it’s ALWAYS blame someone else for failings……

Good teacher? Bad teacher?

How about BAD STUDENT???

Now, go give your “child” another pill cuz he has a “disorder”

Gullable! Yes you are………..

Jan

April 12th, 2011
1:40 pm

@ Socrates

If you tie the hands of your supervisor on his back, blindfold him, tie his legs together, give him a large number of employees who don’t want to work, pay him half of what he can make at another company, gag him, make him keep detailed data on every event, and remind him he can be fired at will at any time, I don’t want to be your supervisor.
Nobody claims that teachers should not be accountable but you just want to make this a simple problem

Another Math Teacher

April 12th, 2011
1:41 pm

Dunwoody Mom:

“The problem is that they are powerless in getting rid of these teachers.”

That is simply not true. If a principal can not get rid of a “bad” teacher, only one of two things are happening:

1) The principal is “bad” and can not do the proper paperwork to get it done. The principal needs to be let go.
2) The principal did the paperwork properly and the higher ups decided the principal was wrong and the teacher is not “bad.”

Struggling

April 12th, 2011
1:47 pm

I don’t have a problem at all with undergoing a fair and reasonable evaluation process. The problem with standardized testing (and there are many) is that there are SO many things beyond my control that it is wholly unfair and inaccurate. I am working so hard right now to prepare my high school kids for their EOCTs, but several kids have been absent due to field trips, competitions, seminars, workshops, and even trips to local middle schools to do danec performances and “pep rallies” for the rising 9th graders. Seriously, someone tell me how I am supposed to prepare and review material with kids who aren’t in class and who won’t do it on their own. The apathy in my school is astounding, and there is very little I can do about it. So I’m to be penalized because half of my classes last week were gone for tennis matches, soccer games, baseball games, youth leadership conferences, and pep rallies at other schools? Someone please explain how that works? Do you folks in the corporate world get penalized when your employees aren’t at work and therefore are unable to perform? I don’t think so.

Dunwoody Mom

April 12th, 2011
1:47 pm

@Another Math Teacher….Sorry, I know what I am talking about.

Dr. John Trotter

April 12th, 2011
1:49 pm

2nd attempt to post…

Dr. John Trotter

April 12th, 2011
1:50 pm

Maureen, I have one in the filter…

Dr. John Trotter

April 12th, 2011
1:51 pm

2nd attempt to post…

@ tim: You are absolutely correct. I have been saying this for years. You can’t learn the kid (it’s even bad English); you can only teach the kid. The children and their parents should shoulder the lionshare of the responsibility. Most teachers are hard-working and dedicated. Like in all professions, you will have a few bad apples who soil the reputation of the many. But, no one seems to want to lay the responsibility right where it belongs…at the doorsteps of the child and parents.

Jack

April 12th, 2011
1:51 pm

I sometimes think the people who “guide” public education (and who themselves have never actually been teachers) are a lot like my students … they have all the answers, but they don’t have a clue as to what the questions are or what they mean.

Robert Penland

April 12th, 2011
1:53 pm

DUNWOODY MOM, YOU MUST BE IN DeDALB COUNTY

Cindy of Cobb

April 12th, 2011
1:58 pm

I say fire any teacher that does not know the difference bt there, their and they’re. Also please fire any teacher that says AKS vs ASK. I am so thankful to have moved from Dekalb where this was the norm and regularly received letters form both my child’s teacher and other faculty members with constant misspellings. Utterly ridiculous and inexcusable.

KCS

April 12th, 2011
2:01 pm

I would suggest that if this teacher does not know if she’s a good teacher or not then perhaps she should try a simpler profession. A standard for good teaching does exist and has very little to do with test scores, sadly though too many teachers are not held accountable in meeting it. A good teacher provides engaging content, is excited about the material, has effective classroom management, connects with students, and has the ability to assess student progress in order to differentiate instruction. While learning is ultimately up to the student, good teachers and good schools provide every opportunity to learn. I have seen children succeed who have had nothing but the determination and dedication of their teachers to motivate them.

Having 3 children in school over the past 10 years we have experienced both the best and the worst teachers.
Here’s a real example to judge:

Teacher A hands out worksheets to students, talks on her cell phone and plays on Facebook all day, every day for years. My student receives an “A” and exceeds the CRCT in this subject.
Good or bad?

Tad Jackson

April 12th, 2011
2:07 pm

Anybody else enthusiastically buy for one untaxed dollar at their local gas station, “Just Busted?” What an engaging publication!

In a recent edition I came across the picture of a parent of one of my former students. She did not look happy. Anyhow, I had sat across the table from her during a student-teacher-parent conference. I had seen her pick up her child at the end of the day … around campus … here and there. Way too much money and way-too-easy access to powerful prescription pills. That’s what I think. She busted up some public property it said.

In the current issue there’s a picture of one of my former students … just busted in Forsyth for impersonating an officer and contributing to the delinquency of a minor. How mischievous!

Does that make me a bad teacher? I guess there’s only so many social studies tests a kid can take before he snaps.

http://www.adixiediary.com

HStchr

April 12th, 2011
2:09 pm

Socrates: Are you a teacher? Evidently not or you’d realize that children are not quality controlled, inert lumps that can be made into anything you desire. If you taught, you’d understand the complexities of working with human beings who are developing and changing as we work with them. A standardized test score, to a high school student who has been tested over and over again, means nothing. They don’t score low because they don’t know, they score low because they don’t want to be tested again and again and again. Emotions affect everything they do, and we cannot control who is happy, well-fed, or loved at home. Until you can control all that, you can’t just judge by one test score. It simply isn’t that simple and never will be. I work with kids labeled as “at-risk” every day, so I can tell you about the human element that cannot be controlled like a factory.

Another Math Teacher

April 12th, 2011
2:12 pm

Dunwoody Mom:

“@Another Math Teacher….Sorry, I know what I am talking about.”

Not by what you posted. You either do not know what you are talking about or are presenting false facts.

You lose credibility when you post “facts.”

drew (former teacher)

April 12th, 2011
2:15 pm

@Tad Jackson…thank you for laying out a thorough and perfectly reasonable approach to teacher evaluations. You’ve done a great job answering the “how” portion of the blog headline. Kudos!

Unfortunately, it’ll never happen. Administrators don’t want to do the work necessary to compile a complete and thorough evaluation. Most would love nothing more than condense it all to a key strokes and mouse clicks once test scores have been posted.

The vast majority of teachers do not fear evaulations, nor the use of testing data in evaluation. All they want is a complete evaluation; something consisting of more than just test scores.

Jeeeezzz…I’m so glad I’m not a teacher right now. I don’t think there’s ever been a time when teachers were being shat on as much as they are today.

Struggling

April 12th, 2011
2:17 pm

I have been teaching for 7 years. My first year, the test scores were awful. My second year, they were surprisingly high. Then my third year they were below average. 4th year, OK but not great. 5th year, my scores were the best they have ever been. Last year they dropped again below average. Apparently the fine folks under the Gold Dome and Mrs. Rhee feel that I suddenly forgot how to teach, then magically remembered how to be effective, then forgot again. I don’t mind being evaluated, just not on something that is an horribly inexact measure.

justbrowsing

April 12th, 2011
2:18 pm

Perhaps the school districts acquiece to lower standards and less rigor, to pacify their tax base at the expense of teachers. We are simply middle men, essentially doing our jobs, but not supported in doing them. Schools have the power to turn things around at any point they choose, the question is when will that be? Perhaps when they have thinned the ranks of veteran teachers, in lieu of newer, less expensive new teachers. At that point, they may decide to enforce the rules already on the books. It is interesting that we do not enforce them now.

Robert Penland

April 12th, 2011
2:25 pm

I CANNOT SPELL DeDALB! IT IS (BAD TEACHER’S) BUT I NEVER HAD TYPING

A Conservative Voice

April 12th, 2011
2:48 pm

Maureen, why are you still talking to this nut job?

Tad Jackson

April 12th, 2011
2:53 pm

drew … thank you. That’s the beauty of old school, common sense thinking. Lord have mercy … it still works!

Cindy Lutenbacher

April 12th, 2011
3:21 pm

Lisa…your comments are on the right track. The qualities you note are notoriously difficult to measure but very easy to actually see. Let’s keep our voices out there.
And Trotter, I totally agree with your assessment of Rhee. Even her own classroom testing scores have proven to be bogus. She’s out for money and fame, not our kids.
Socrates, I recommend that you study up on the value of standardized testing. There is none. Standardized testing shows economic well-being of a neighborhood. Its test questions are chosen to be biased toward higher SES students. You’ll not find unbiased research that shows standardized testing to be a measure of learning AT ALL. It truly does not measure learning.

chuck

April 12th, 2011
3:34 pm

Raquel,

I have NO PROBLEM being evaluated. My principal has been in my classroom numerous times. He has observed me in action. He has seen how I handle discipline issues and he sees my test scores. The current system of evaluation works fine when administrators do their jobs. My principal does that and all of us feel like our evaluation was fair and an effective tool for determining whether or not we are doing what we are supposed to be doing as teachers.

I would love for you to go to the “CLASS Keys” evaluation area on the doe website. There are about 40 pages of rubrics for the observer to fill out and the amount of paperwork for teachers (documentation) is increased exponentially. This documentation TAKES AWAY from preparation and teaching so that somebody in central office can stick it in a file and start working on additional ways to suck the life out of teaching.

Let me ask YOU RAQUEL…How are you evaluated in YOUR JOB?

wtw

April 12th, 2011
3:46 pm

It is hard to differentiate between “good” and “bad” teachers. Certainly criteria must guide this distinction. I think one of the reasons schools are “under-performing” is obvious–many students (and their parents) who would rather be anywhere else but there.

Perhaps if we changed the bar for compulsory education downward so that students and parents can decide at, say, 8th grade, if they want to continue. However, the Hobson’s choice I suggest has consequences. If students decide to drop out, they are not eligible for ANY government assistance. Perhaps the remaining students would have sufficient incentive to achieve Annual Yearly Progress.

I do not suggest this to increase the gap between classes. We’ve tried to reward bad behavior with unending second chances. Let’s suggest a course correction to indicate bad behavior has consequences.

With sufficiently motivated students, I suggest our teachers would rise to the occasion.

chuck

April 12th, 2011
3:59 pm

When employees are evaluated in the real world, they have specific objectives that they must meet and a mans of documenting that they met the objectives as well as the time to document. It is part of their day to day job performance. More essentially, they have a STANDARD controlling the raw material used in meeting those objectives.

Assume that you are an auto worker and you are required to insert 20 rivets per minute into the frame of a vehicle. Would it be fair to evaluate your performance in meeting your objective if one third of the rivets provided to you were defective? What if the frame that came to you on the assembly line was bent out of shape or was delivered 5 feet over your head?

I would assume that it would be easy to evaluate an auto worker if the rivets were made correctly and the frame was not bent and it was delivered on time and in the right position. Evaluating teachers is NOT THAT EASY. Lay people assume that if we are doing our jobs that every student should meet the standard on the standardized test. There is a right way to teach and a wrong way to teach and if you do it the right way, it will work.

That is NOT the case. I have had students who came in having a bad morning who just bubbled in answers. Some have finished the test in as little as 10 minutes. I can’t make them go back and read the questions and do it right. In fact, IF I TRY that, I will be accused of cheating and subject to disciplinary action.

Political Mongrel

April 12th, 2011
4:21 pm

@Dunwoody Mom: Sorry, but you are assuming that the problems in your area are everywhere. They are not. Over the years I have REPEATEDLY watched principals remove bad teachers. It takes documentation, sure, but it’s not that difficult if there’s really something to document. There are a few local systems where system policy makes it difficult, but that’s not a statewide problem. Maybe you need to check into your local system’s policies.

I’ve also watched people go on vendettas against individual teachers that they think need to be fired, but the evidence against them is often not there. In one case, I saw a superb teacher become the object of a campaign of harassment by two families because their children got well-deserved F’s. They took this matter to the newspapers, to the school board, to the state board, and to court. Several hundred people rose to this teacher’s defense. The families are still at it.

Ima Teacher

April 12th, 2011
4:55 pm

Well, Socrates…here are a few questions for you (the Socratic method : )– How would you judge if a P.E. teacher, a music teacher, or a media specialist are “good” teachers? They don’t have test scores to be judged by. Are we only going to judge the classroom teachers that actually teach the standards? What about the teachers who are teaching in inner city or very poor areas and don’t have all of the advantages (materials, money, students who drive BMWs to school, etc.) of teachers who teach in primarily white, upper middle class schools? If the test scores in downtown Atlanta aren’t as high as the scores in Dunwoody, should we just fire all of those teachers in the inner city school and assume that they are all terrible teachers?

And who gets to judge? My principal, who couldn’t write a decent sentence if her life depended on it (a one-page memo of hers had 13 errors in it one time!!!)? And hint, hint…most of them are in the same boat. Most administrators become administrators because they can’t hack it in the classroom or they got tired of teaching P.E. in the hot sun. Are they to be our judges??? If we are going to judge all teachers equally, then we will need to ensure that all classes are created equally, too. Each teacher should have the same number of Gifted students, English Language Learners, Special Ed. students, and the same number of ADD/ADHA children. But we all know that teachers who are not “favorites” of the principal usually get stuck with a lot of ELLs, while the favored ones get one or two in their class. This brings up another question…all of the above students usually get pulled out of the classroom teacher’s room for special services (ESOL, Sp. Ed., Gifted, Speech, EIP, OT), so that the classroom teacher hardly sees them at all during the day. Yet that teacher is to be judged a “bad” teacher if their students don’t pass one stupid test? What are we to do about students whose parents aren’t home to supervise them at night because they are working? Or they don’t speak English? These students have no one to help them with homework or see to it that they get enough sleep at night so their brain will work the next day. Is that the teacher’s fault, too?

Oh, and I’m assuming that the people you work with are ADULTS! Big difference than trying to teach 8-18 year olds. That’s why teachers should be treated differently. Teachers are held accountable for their work. We are evaulated 1-3 times every year and have to take 20 hours of professional development each and every year, and have our certificates renewed every 5 years. Doctors and lawyers don’t have to do that. And I’m betting you don’t either.

Leave teachers ALONE and let us TEACH!!!! If we didn’t have to spend so much of our time teaching the “standards” so students can take ONE irrelevant test (which is culturally biased and not always based on the GPS, BTW), doing endless paperwork, hours of computer work, and teaching “test-taking strategies,” our students might actually ENJOY school again. Then they would LEARN everything they need and WANT to learn…just like we did.

You can’t “legislate” morality, and you can’t “legislate” good teaching either. Why don’t we put our money where our mouth is Georgia legislators? Pay teachers a decent salary and give our schools (ALL of our schools) the money they need to purchase textbooks and the materials we need to effectively teach the special students of today. And don’t think we are stupid…teachers KNOW that this bit of triffling legislation is just another way to run out the veteran teachers so the state can save some money and hire two “newbies” for the price of one experienced teacher. What is going to happen in about 5-10 years when all of the Baby Boomer teachers have retired and all of the young teachers have figured out what a JOKE education has become?

John Galt

April 12th, 2011
5:13 pm

Ima Teacher-

It finally came down to more money in paragraph 5, didn’t it? I have siblings and children who are public school educators, so I am not without sympathy, but WHY should you be “left alone” and paid? If you can support that concept, let me know, because I would like to ask my CEO to “leave me alone” if that is some sort of right.

Don’t look now but there is a lot of whining in that post of yours.

Dr. Trotter-

Where did you obtain the arrogance to entitle you to insult and name-call those who are not as wise as you perceive yourself to be?

Jordan Kohanim

April 12th, 2011
5:38 pm

I would LOVE to enter this debate, but until I get my contract…I’ll keep quiet.

My views about how to gauge teachers are pretty well expressed in this video I did as a response to Waiting for Superman:

http://youtu.be/RSE7t2CGCOo

jm

April 12th, 2011
5:40 pm

This is silly. Principals know very well. And testing score direction also helps.

catlady

April 12th, 2011
5:51 pm

Ima–in our school, only gifted gets pulled out! (Funny about that!) THEIR needs can’t be met when with the “common” kids, but the MID, BD, ESOL, etc CAN have their needs met in a class of 32 different levels?!

Jordan–good move!

Henry County Teacher

April 12th, 2011
6:01 pm

How do you phase out bad admins? Especially those that have zero consequences for bullys?

long time educator

April 12th, 2011
8:22 pm

Does anyone else out there realize that the Class Keys and judging on the end product, test scores, are diametrically opposed? If I am to be judged on the end result, then leave me alone to make the decisions about how I get there. (Obviously, I am not talking about any method that is not honest.) If I am to be judged on the minutia of content delivery (word walls, graphic organizers, copious lesson plans, essential questions, ad nauseum….) in the Class Keys, then do not hold me responsible for the end result. It is not fair or reasonable to demand both, but it has been my experience that the fads in education are neither fair nor reasonable. If given a choice, I would much rather be judged on the end result.

Knock Out Punch

April 12th, 2011
8:26 pm

Hmmm….my school has a new student that cusses like a sailor….and we are talking a wee, little kid! Behind in skills, etc., How should a teacher be held accountable for that? I’ll take the accountability if we can “spread the wealth around”…Where is Mom and Dad’s stake in all this? Where is the student’s responsibility? We want schools to raise them totally, to the point that some school has banned lunches from home? CRAZY!..Society is so totally and completely different than even 10 years ago! I’ll promise I’ll do my best and work with these kids to get them as far as I can, but seriously, are you going to blame me for a child who walks into the school already acting like an uncivilized urchin. What other business does that? Cannot think of any.

long time educator

April 12th, 2011
8:47 pm

@Knock Out Punch
I agree that some of the kids and their parents are beyond challenging, but I would still be willing to take the end result of the majority of my students, particularly if looked at over several years. I am a former principal and have studied the test scores of an elementary school faculty. It really did prove true over a number of years, that the good teachers generally have higher scores no matter which kids you give them and the poor teachers do poorly. I always gave each teacher their scores in a grid that showed each subject over the last five years and comparisons to their grade level average, county comparisons and state comparisons. I have had teachers become very upset when they saw how much lower their scores were over several years than their colleagues. The facts spoke for themselves.

Darn Yankee

April 12th, 2011
9:29 pm

Quick question – why do you non-teachers think that teachers AREN’T evaluated already? I’m curious about this. I’m reading thread after thread of how teachers don’t want to be evaluated, and how the PTB need put in place this, that, or the other…

Amazing. Do any of you know any teachers personally? Have you ever actually talked to any of your kids’ as people and not just the professional babysitters that you hope you never hear from? Have any of you non-teachers actually volunteered in a school on a non-fun day (NOT a field trip or special occasion) and worked one on one with a troubled kid?

For the record – there ARE tests to become a teacher (the quality of the GACE I can’t say, since I took the Praxis). You take one to get in a program, and another to prove what you’ve learned. Now, I will say that the trend to let folks take it numerous times if they don’t pass is troubling, but we allow lawyers to take the bar more than once, so what can I say…

Also, teachers ARE evaluated ANNUALLY. Teachers with less than three years have to have two observations, one announced (we jokingly call that the dog and pony show) and one unannounced. Over three years require a yearly announced visit. In addition to that, there is a trend towrad more frequent walk-throughs – my only problem with those is that some focus on a “gotcha-mentality” and ding you for things like not having standards posted – if the kids are engaged in the lesson, then who cares about the walls, IMHO. And all the word walls in the world aren’t going to help a teacher with no classroom management.

Every March, every teacher in the building has a sit down with their evaluating administrator. There is a form that has a variety of categories on it ranging from planning to teaching to professional responsibilities. It IS possible to receive Needs Improvement and if you have two many NIs you don’t get a step increase, you aren’t eligible for “tenure” (GA’s weak version of it) if you have fewer than three years, and you can be placed on a PDP. Failure to improve and you can be fired. I have seen teachers fired EVERY year I have taught.

The effectiveness of all of this comes down to administration. If your school has a large number of “bad” teachers then it likely has a weak administrative team, or it is a tough school that is hard to fill and warm bodies get hired.

I have worked in the real world (longer than I have taught), and I DON’T SEE MUCH DIFFERENCE. I can only wonder where some of you get your information.

Jezel

April 12th, 2011
9:37 pm

Blaming the mess in education on the teachers is a COP out. Parents are the first cause of poor student achievement. The students themselves are the next cause of poor test scores. If a student wants to learn and achieve it does not matter what the teacher does or does not do. Laying the blame on teachers simply enables students the chance to find an excuse.

Jezel

April 12th, 2011
9:48 pm

The interest in this topic of evaluating teachers is based on the fact that it cost less money to run a school if the teachers are new to the profession. Since we are having financial problems across this county we have to cut where we can. So how about this….cut the most expensive state agency…the Dept. of Corrections….and give the money to the schools. In this great state 1 out of 12 are felons. Nationally 1 out of 32 are felons. Cut the 1 billion dollar DOC budget to 300 million and give schools 700 million. Then all this fronting about POOR teachers can be put to sleep.

rosie

April 12th, 2011
9:57 pm

I would like for Ms. Rhee to come into my classroom and MAKE kids do the assignments. Yesterday, I taught my heart out while a small group of students in the classroom chose not to participate. These students refused attempt the assignment. What is a teacher to do when he/she has no way to discipline or enforce rules? Why should I be held accountable for test scores for a student that choooses not to learn?

Patricia - 34 year Veteran

April 12th, 2011
11:30 pm

Several years ago I worked in a district for one year where I was evaluated three times by three different administrators during the course of that year. I received absolutely the best written evaluations I have ever received and my students scored well on the state assessment. However, I was not offered a contract for the next year which would have tenured me. The reason was in my best estimation a money issue as I was an expensive teacher due to my years of experience and certification. Of course I was given no reason for not offering me a contract as school officials are protected against being honest. Luckily I now teach in a school district where experienced teachers are valued. However, in this monetary climate I am unsure how much longer that will continue.
Many years ago I taught in another state where the union required administrators give teachers a heads up as to when they would evaluate. My administrator let me know she wanted to come in, and asked when I would like her to come by. It was my first year in a kindergarten classroom after teaching third grade for several years. My response was come when you want, but if she really wanted to understand the program I was presenting to my students she should come in throughout the day. She visited our class three times that particular day. She was a rare administrator. Over my years I have had some administrators who were not considered effective, but they were in the minority.
The smaller the school district the more a teacher can be impacted by school board members. I can certainly see where a teacher would not be offered a contract simply because a family member or constituent of a board member may soon need a teaching job in the community. I can see this as having an impact against teachers who are currently protected through seniority.
If standardized testing is to become the tool by which I am to be measured then it cannot be the CRCT or any other similar high-stakes test. I want to be judged by the growth my students achieve during their time with me. Pretest in the fall and post test in the spring. Give me the freedom to do what I do well…allow me to plan my lessons in the way that best fit my teaching style and the needs of my students rather than force me to waste hours of my time on a document that is written for the needs of adults who like to simply check off a box on an evaluation form. Really spend time in my classroom giving appropriate feedback throughout the year.
What about those teachers who teach in positions where standardized testing is not even offered such as in PreK or Kindergarten? What about those teachers who teach P.E., or art, or technology? I see all of this as being a true nightmare!!
I have read several comments on this blog ranting about “bad” or ineffective teachers. Right now it seems ALL of us who teach are being branded with this negative viewpoint bandied about by individuals who have never truly walked in the shoes of those of us who teach in very difficult situations. It is time we stand up against this and start voting against those legislators who vote against educators without actually visiting in schools on a regular basis.

Ros Dalton

April 12th, 2011
11:50 pm

Managers in every line of work get indifferent, lazy, bored, entitled employees they have to get results from in order to keep their own jobs and have positive evaluations. It may not be easy to judge their performance as a manager, it may not even be fair, but it happens and it is undeniably more fair than just giving anyone with enough time in the system a flat pass no matter what they’re getting done in the classroom. Experience is the only thing the ‘lifo’ policy protects, and if experience is genuinely valuable it will show through on any reasonable set of evaluations.

Fled

April 13th, 2011
12:21 am

So glad I am out of there. I will NEVER come back to Georgia. Is there anything else the idiots running that benighted state won’t do to ensure that no one wants to work there as a teacher?

Had enough yet, teachers? Give up, throw in the towel. Flee. You will be glad you did.

gradgrind

April 13th, 2011
6:32 am

In the “real world,” they fire CEOs and managers for incompetence. I’d bet that the majority of teachers are competent (with some obvious exceptions). I’d also bet that you can’t say the same about the majority of vice-principals, principals, district-level desk slugs, and especially not the Board. What a bunch of incompetent, entitled morons.

Write Your Board Members

April 13th, 2011
7:00 am

Dunwoody Mom

DeKalb seems to be worse than most systems for getting ready of bad employees. Add to the general jobs program feel of the system, the very many marginally competent administrators, both in the school house and central office, and you have the train wreck that is DeKalb schools right now.

To many teachers, especially on the south side, have connections to higher ups, whether it be through church or Greek life.

hmm?

April 13th, 2011
9:25 am

@Patrica

the pre and post test would be the most effective; but that would require even more test, possibly one every 9 weeks. however, having several “smaller” test throughout the year could show student progress instead of the high stakes once a year remember the whole thing boondoggle that now exist.

the other catch is if we give smaller test throughout the year testing companies would make even more money…..

Advocate

April 13th, 2011
9:30 am

More attacks on the teachers. Georgia will certainly miss out on any teachers coming to this state to work. Atlanta Public Schools just clearly demonstrated how administrators as high up as the Superintendent mistreat teachers and staff. Now we expect a fair objective performance evaluation from the likes of these gangsters. Teachers who have committed to a school district’s children have well earned their time and it should be considered as such. Georgia is turning into an awful place for educators and I wouldn’t tell any student to even think of a career here a teacher.

Advocate

April 13th, 2011
9:46 am

Veteran Teachers remember all these legislative attacks during the next voting cycle. That is what you did to Roy Barnes now look at this mess that we are dealing with under republican rule. Constant attacks on educators and changing the rules for change sakes with no evidence of the possible repercussions to come. Believe me there will be repercussions as this new generation that is to be hired at cheaper salaries will not sustain education as there will be no commitment or endurance. That pack up and leave in a moment notice and that will not be good for the children.

Raquel Morris

April 13th, 2011
10:00 am

@Chuck,

I think we agree on a lot of points. I am glad to hear that your principal takes (and makes) the time to give you a comprehensive evaluation that goes beyond your student’s test scores. It sounds like this is exactly what needs to happen in all schools.

I agree with you about the ridiculous paperwork burden placed on teachers and principals. It has little to no benefit for the children so should be done away with on that point alone.

You asked about evaluations on my job. I am an attorney for a financial services company. In my evaluations, I am compared to the folks who do the same job as me as well as other attorneys across the company whose functions are completely different from mine. I am evaluated directly by my boss and indirectly by my boss’s peers, even though I don’t work directly with them. Naturally, the evaluation process changes or is overhauled seemingly at will. It can be frustrating, confusing and time-consuming but, you just do the best job you can and hope for the best.

Contestjoiner

April 13th, 2011
10:01 am

The solution is simple. Teachers will resort to cheating. Ms. Rhee has done it (or at least tacitly encouraged it), politicians do it, Wall Street bankers do it, successful people cheat. As the saying goes, “If you ain’t cheating, you ain’t trying.”

Michelle Rhee is on a mission to do more damage to the American education system, than George W. Bush and Rod (cheater) Paige ever dreamed of. Using her nefarious tactic, standardized tests that were never meant to statistically judge small groups, she is systematically going about demonizing teachers and their organizations. Over 2/3 of teachers are female, moms, sisters, aunts, grandmas, daughters and wives. This is the enemy?

Sounds to me like a war on women, women that make an honest living, working to better the lives of others.

Go get ‘em Michelle.

Atlanta Media Guy

April 13th, 2011
10:33 am

In DeKalb County, wasn’t the job of evaluating teachers and then helping them become better, assigned to “Audria’s Army” a.k.a. the infamous Office of Improvement? The six figure coaches are suppose to be coaching our teachers. Seems to me the “coaches” are only working on their Doctorate via mail order, making sure their dues for the Frats or Sororities are current and their 10% tithe to New Birth is automatically deposited in the offering plate!

Folks, if you leave it up to principals or “coaches” it will become a popularity contest and not a true indication of how good or bad a teacher really is. I think it should be a group of teachers and administrators from a totally different school system, at least 500 miles from DeKalb County. Maybe SACS can actually do something and formulate an organization of Teachers who actually score their peers and are not involved in the local school board politics.

frustrated parent

April 13th, 2011
10:38 am

@Socrates – you are forgetting that the end “TASK” is not a product – it is a child. Teachers do not have the luxury of knowing their task is accomplished. It is not a finite product. Their “task” is continually growing, changing , forgetting, questioning, being grumpy, sleepy, happy, and energetic, every day . Teachers want accountability – they just want it to be fairly administered.
Education has got to stop being equated with business principles. It is not a business. Educators are not the enemy. The so called experts have never spent a day in a classroom – and they need to before they start claiming they have the solution.

high school teacher

April 13th, 2011
3:27 pm

Conspiracy theory – sounds like a great way to implement CLASS Keys; he/she who has the lowest score gets the axe…

Scott A

April 13th, 2011
5:49 pm

Just another excuse for political games from administrators… the answer is not to hold teachers more accountable (though they should have good attendance and be prepared to teach something every day)… the answer is to hold students accountable to learn. If they won’t, kick them out and let their parents enroll them in private school. Today’s public school teacher spends more time babysitting than teaching. No wonder the most qualified teachers are leaving the profession.

RBN

April 13th, 2011
8:26 pm

We seem to be always putting the cart before the horse. I called for a better evaluation system from 2000 to 2002. But, instead Georgia attacked fair dismissal. Since we have been chasing fast fixes: charter schools, vouchers, 65% soluitions, merit pay, Race to the Top, merit pay..on and on. For once, can we focus on what makes a good teacher and how do we keep that person in the classroom?

SallyB

April 13th, 2011
9:58 pm

@AtlantaMediaGuy:
AMENAMENAMENAMENAMENAMENAMENAMENAMENAMENAMENAMENAMENAMENAMEN!!!

After 32 years of teaching and loving every minute of it, all of those affected, pseudo America’s Choice “coaches” who had been in the classroom for , what…..2 , 3, 4 years at the most….come barging into my classroom with all of their Cures du Jours……Word walls, rubrics, bulletin board requirements, scripted lessons.!!!!

Meanwhile , I knew my subject bacward and forward and I knew how to pass on that knowledge to my students…..who were,for the most part, doing their assignments, participating in class discussions and actually learning , whether parents were involved or not!

Yep…..couldn’t do it, so I left along with multitudes of great teachers…and yes, I was a great teacher . My former students have verified that for me. And I miss it!

Most of all, I hate seeing all of this nonsense going on in Metro Atlanta today.

Has anyone noticed that the reputable private schools do not do this Cure du JOur thing every year??
They are still emphasizing the same old grammar and usage, history, geography, math, conventional science and teaching the same old ways, except for adding in current technology.
SHAMESHAMESHAMESHAME~~~~!
“

SallyB

April 13th, 2011
9:59 pm

CAUGHT IN THE filter monster….Guess it just didn’t like what I had to ssay….

Just A Teacher

April 13th, 2011
10:36 pm

There are a lot of things wrong with this bill. For one thing, it targets a specific set of state employees. Secondly, it gives school boards the power to layoff employees, regardless of seniority, in order to trim payroll. We all know that veteran teachers make more than newcomers. They can easily decide that a 25 year veteran needs to be let go and a 22 year old hired to replace him / her.
If they are going to do this to teachers, they need to do the same thing for the state police, prison guards, the DMV employees and every other state employee.

DiAnne Johnson

April 14th, 2011
11:29 am

Proposing that my salary be directly tied to – as much as 50% – the achievement of my students is ludicrous. I find this a theory that is practical in the business world, but wholly unsupportable in education. In business, when the administrator/boss/executive tells his subordinates what he expects, and how he expects it to be done, the subordinates must rise to his expectations in order to maintain their jobs. In my classroom, no matter how often I express my expectations – based on Georgia Performance and National Standards – my subordinates do not have to comply. They can choose to fail if they wish. Their parents can tell them not to worry about foreign language because this is America and we speak English. They do not have to/are not obligated to do anything that I say. Most do realize that they have to gain an education to succeed in this world, but there are many who don’t or who don’t do it to the best of their ability, regardless of notes sent home, constant encouragement, explaining and re-explaining the material, websites with all manner of information loaded for their convenience, books and workbooks issued, etc. I have no control over my students once they leave my classroom, nor can I make them perform under any detriment to themselves save their own ambition when they are in my classroom. How can the governor and the legislature of this state propose to tie my salary to something over which I have no control? No matter how well I execute my job, my students are not obligated to succeed. When I work twelve 40-hour work weeks of unpaid overtime in any given year to offer my students the best of what I can do, and they are not obligated to take advantage of it, how can it be reasonable for my salary to be based on their achievement? When I further my education, at great personal and financial cost, to be an even more effective teacher, and they are not obligated to succeed, how can it be reasonable for my salary to be based on their achievement?

Additionally now I will be on the chopping block if there are reductions in force. Why? Because I will be a teacher with advanced (pertinent) degrees, and I will no longer be cost effective. This will give “business-minded” county administrators license to let me go in favor of a cheaper, younger teacher. This is a practice from the corporate world which I have always considered criminal. How many business professionals have been tossed out of their jobs in their late 40’s and 50’s, before they can retire, in favor of younger professionals who will earn less salary at entry level? Hmmmm. The future abuse is all too clear.

ssteacher

April 15th, 2011
11:02 pm

This is not about good or bad teachers. It is about reducing expenditures. This makes it probable that teachers who are paid most will be first out when budgets need cut.

Once you get someone who makes decisions about education who is not in the classroom, it is NEVER about STUDENTS. It is ALWAYS about MONEY.

Sandy

April 16th, 2011
10:18 am

If parents are to judge whether or not I am a good teacher, then they should be required to attend at least a week of my classes. Every day, all day. What they hear at home is very often not everything that happens in the class. Recently, a student who got a D on a test lied to the parents and guess who got blasted in an email? Me. It took three emails and a phone call before the parent realized their child lied. If she gets to rate me, I fail. If she was in my class and sees how I teach, I win. Honestly, the attacks on teachers being the cause of the downfall of society these days is enough to make me want to seek other employment.
And @Socrates: Sometimes the standardized test questions are SO poorly worded, that it is difficult for even teachers to figure out what they were asking. And it is fact that students who miss a lot of school do poorly on standardized tests. I have a student who has missed 21 days this year due to family vacations. His parents are the first to call for a conference when he gets back and doesn’t do well on a test. Maybe if I could be his responsible guardian and make sure he gets to school I would feel more responsible for his achievement.
I get rated on my performance by my administrators. Who thinks teachers answer to no one? It’s utterly ridiculous the amount of misinformation that floats around in peoples’ heads.

Sandy

April 16th, 2011
10:20 am

@ DiAnn: I am in the same boat. With 21 years of near perfect evaluations and various honors, I am thinking I may not have a job soon.

aps mom

April 16th, 2011
5:06 pm

I wholly agree that job security should be based on in-class performance/merit. Instead of principles being figureheads and mouthpieces to the parents, they should know exactly what is going on in that classroom, as well as the parent/student views of that teacher. There are ways of asking questions that get around the like/dislike answer that can get to the root of a teacher’s performance. And less face it – if a whole class dislikes a teacher, then there is a problem somewhere.

I worked at a prominent elementary school in Buckhead. The principle was in those classrooms all the time evaluating those teachers. She mentioned how much time she was required to do this a year, and while it was exorbitant, from a parent’s perspective, it was nice to know that she was that involved.

As for the person that said any teacher can be eliminated by a principal at will – NO WAY. Listen to this one. Myself, others, and this same principle documented for 1 1/2 months a teacher who was drinking on campus and drunk by the end of the day. It was not enough. We even found the bottles that she was drinking out of, and saw her drinking – it was not enough. APS has a policy that when there is suspicion of a teacher under the influence, an APS person must be called and must come to the school immediately to confirm. As this was often confirmed at the end of the day, it was never a convenient time to call APS and get them down there. Why didn’t the teacher call the police or give a breathalyzer, it is against the policy (I’m not sure that is Ga policy or national). I went to the principal of the main campus, talked to her and told her everything i knew, and that I was going to APS. I asked her (keep in mind, this was not a threatening conversation; I have known her for years) if she realized that if this got out, she would lose her job (the parents have high expectations and are very influential). She said yes, and that her hands were tied.

Keep in mind, also, this teacher continued to have the least-prepared children moving to the next grade, so performance was an issue as well.

After going to legal at APS, I found out the following: Ga has a ‘no tolerance policy’ – yes, laughable!! They also have a 3-yr tenure!!! After a teacher reaches tenure, a process must be followed to give this teacher an opportunity to change their ways and become compliant with expectations. Let me assure you, this process can take quite a while. I continued to ask, if we have a ‘no tolerance policy’ then how can you allow a teacher to continue when substance has been confirmed. Policy apparently comes from the state level and that’s why they must go with ‘the process.’ He told me two disturbing things: there are other cases in APS where the teachers have been under the influence of drugs as well – they are still teaching because of policy. The second, it was easier to fire him (lawyer for APS), than it was to fire his assistant, or any teacher in the system.

You wonder why we are 48th in the nation – POLICY is a big part of it!!

Good vs. bad teachers: Who decides and how?

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Good vs. bad teachers: Who decides and how?

136 comments Add your comment

About Get Schooled

Search this blog

Recent Posts

Archives

More from the AJC

Are You or Your School the ‘Best In Class’?

Categories

College resources

All AJC blogs »

Tell us what you think about the site

Subscribe »

Customer Care »

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Advertising

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