Alfie Kohn: The real cheating in APS and other schools is little meaningful learning
Education author and lecturer Alfie Kohn believes that we have yet to address the real cheating scandal going on in Atlanta schools and many others around the country.
“The real cheating scandal that has been going on for years is that kids are being cheated out of meaningful learning by focusing on test scores,” said Kohn, author of 12 books on education and parenting, including “The Homework Myth” and “Unconditional Parenting.”
“Standardized tests like the CRCT measure what matters least. The more you know about education, the less likely you would ever be to measure teachers, schools or kids based on test scores,” said Kohn.
“Focusing on the CRCT as a matter of policy writes off low-income kids of color by turning their classrooms into sterile test-prep centers.”
An influential voice in what is known as “progressive education,” Kohn expounds on these themes with equal amounts indignation and passion in his new book “Feel-Bad Education.”
In a telephone interview this week, Kohn said accountability and testing are crushing the spirit of teachers and students. Rather than nourishing children’s excitement about learning and helping them to be good people, school now acclimates them to years of mind-numbing chores and drills.
With “vinegary moralism,” Kohn said we stamp out children’s natural inquisitiveness and degrade school from an adventure in learning to a daily grind of prefabricated lessons, worksheets, letter grades and bubble tests. The aim is not to promote thinking or the joy of discovery, but to raise test scores.
Yet, the research shows that students learn more, that “richer thinking is more likely to occur in an atmosphere of exuberant discovery, in the kind of place where kids plunge into their projects and can’t wait to pick up where they left off yesterday,” said Kohn.
Kohn spares no schools in his critique, saying that publics, charters and privates have fallen under the spell of a corporate culture that wants to reduce children to test scores and that prizes efficiency over exploration.
Now, we even measure reading by assigning books and turning on timers to ensure that children put in their 20 minutes a night.
The widespread embrace of off-the-shelf reading programs that award students points based on how well they perform on computer quizzes “are the most efficient way to teach kids that reading isn’t pleasurable in its own right,” he says.
Kohn has special disdain for schools that place children in uniforms and straight lines and hold pep rallies where kids shout, “Yes, we can!” In many schools, poor urban kids are being told, “Their job is to shut up and listen. They are bribed or threatened into mindless obedience.”
“That so few children seem to take pleasure from what they’re doing on a given weekday morning, that the default emotional state in classrooms seems to alternate between anxiety and boredom, doesn’t even alarm us,’’ he said.
Complaints from teachers about the ever-tightening straitjacket on what they can teach and how they can teach are being marginalized, Kohn said.
So, the talented teachers are fleeing the classroom. “It’s the mediocre teachers who are happy reading from a script. This drives out the creative teachers,” Kohn said.
“We don’t say anything as obvious as ‘Don’t listen to the people teaching our children,’’’ he said. “We’re told it’s their unions that we shouldn’t listen to. That’s become the most expedient way to discredit their profession.”
Kohn blames former President George Bush and President Barack Obama, along with Bill Gates and corporate America, for creating a compliance-driven, test-fixated education system under a mantra of global competitiveness and accountability.
“Competitiveness and excellence are not the same thing,” he said.
Kohn opposes the national standards movement, which will only lead to national testing and more wreckage, he says. He contends that teachers ought to decide which curriculum is best for their schools rather than a remote committee of strangers.
Kohn maintains that schools communicate whether they are centers of learning or factories of compliance in big and small ways.
He finds a troubling subscript in all the chirpy hallway posters that proclaim “I know I’m smart,” or “Achievement is within your grasp,” noting that such affirmations are seldom found in suburban schools where no one needs to be reminded of the potential of students.
Kohn would prefer to see posters that dare students to “Question authority,” or “Think for yourself; The teacher might be wrong.”
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled
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138 comments Add your comment
Georgia Coach
April 8th, 2011
3:07 pm
Enter your comments here
John, facts are facts. If you arre going to promote your propagandist outfit, then I feel compelled to offer a more balanced view.
say what?
April 8th, 2011
3:08 pm
When the test is not THE cornerstone of learning, then teaching and learning occur. I had the pleasure of a 6th grade teacher refusing to teach the test in her classroom. When I entered the classroom and kids moving around, not focused and quiet sitting in a desk, I wanted to run complain to the principal. He assured me that my child would learn with this teacher. Each week he had SAT words, he had weekly writing anaylsis, has 9 week projects, to include writing and “publishing” a book of his own originality. The syllabus came home with the standards that DCSS wanted listed, had the grading scale listed, had all of what the central office wanted. As a parent indoctrinated into the belief that kids MUST pass the test in order to be successful in school and in life, I was pleased that this teacher’s way of teaching worked BEST. My child actually learned, and all but 2 sixth graders met and/or exceeded on the CRCT. If central office caught wind of this non-scripted way of teaching she would be fired for not following the directions of central office. The school principal believed in this teacher’s belief in herself and what she could accomplish, which is what is missing nowadays- support of your staff.
Cobb Teacher 2
April 8th, 2011
3:13 pm
Trust me, you can have engaging learning and teaching while still preparing students for tests. It doesn’t all have to be boring, and I think a good number of teachers do a decent job of presenting state standards while engaging students in a meaningful way. My first graders are each creating a nonfiction book on an animal or insect of their choice, and we have been able to incorporate standards from every subject in this one project. They also love working on it every day.
The real problem I see with all of this pie-in-the-sky education rhetoric is that people have a strong desire to entertain students. Folks, how much of your life as an adult would you consider to be entertaining? As far as I can see, the list of things that need to get done in my house aren’t terribly exciting. Here it is on Friday of spring break, and I’m catching up on laundry, paying bills, writing lesson plans, and finishing a few organizational projects. Fun? Not really. Important? Absolutely.
I am not going to be a paid entertainer. If I wanted to do that, I would be trying out for American Idol or pursuing a career that is far more financially rewarding.
I’ve seen amazing teachers like Ron Clark, and I respect him greatly. However, I’m not going to be him. I very much enjoy having a life and a family of my own, and wouldn’t get the same satisfaction by spending every waking moment at school. I feel that I can be an effective teacher without giving up my life. Try to turn education into the Catholic preiesthood, but don’t expect teachers to fall in line. Especially for a salary of $50,000 a year, and that’s with 10 years of experience and an advanced degree.
Ed Johnson
April 8th, 2011
3:15 pm
@Dr. Trotter (“Maureen: I may go to B. Dalton’s within the week to get a copy, if it is already out in the bookstores.”):
I also recommend Kohn’s book “Punished by Rewards.” Heck, contact me with your address and I’ll save you the trip to B. Dalton with express shipment from amazon.com, my compliments. I gave every APS board member a copy, to no avail, of course.
@Kelly S. (“’Focusing on the CRCT as a matter of policy writes off low-income kids of color by turning their classrooms into sterile test-prep centers.’
“I feel that this statement is racist and disrespectful to low-income/minority families. Is he trying to say that low-income/minority kids are dumb and do not have the abilities to pass these standardized tests?”):
Gosh, how unfortunate you feel the statement is “racist.” However, it is easy to understand that ever-wear “racist” glasses filter out seeing the root causes of which Kohn and similar others speak and write.
Dr. John Trotter
April 8th, 2011
3:21 pm
Maureen, My latest post about SACS, a private organization, which holds the PUBLIC school systems captive was hijacked by the Filter Monster. SACS is not accountable to the public in any way and yet, like the charlatan reverends, it dangles the school systems over the pit of educational h_ll if they don’t genuflect before it. Let me stop…before I give away the post. Ha! I think that “h_ll” with the “e” might have been the problem.
Dr. John Trotter
April 8th, 2011
3:23 pm
@ East Cobb Parent: It would be nice if I could announce to a school board the following: “If 60% of your teachers don’t join MACE, then MACE will revoke the MACE Accreditation from your county, and your county needs this MACE Accreditation or you kids can’t have HOPE Scholarship (if they is any left).” SACS is nothing more than a private organization which has snookered (to use Dr. No’s recent verb) states and school systems into thinking that its “accreditation” is worth anything. If we simply say that it is “useless,” then it becomes useless. I think that SACS’s accreditation is hollow…based mainly on money. The school systems have to pay a hefty fee to SACS for this accreditation for the system and for each school within the system. And, should SACS spank a school system, then the system has to pay for remedial measures (written materials, visits, etc.). In my opinion, SACS is a racket. I don’t see a “service” rendered. I see SACS like I see those charlatan preachers who essentially dangle their parishioners over the pit of h_ll if they don’t “tithe” their salaries to the preachers who are not accountable to anyone. SACS is not accountable to the State or to the public in any way. I see SACS like these so-called bishops or reverends who are extorting money…based on the fear of going to educational hell (no accreditation).
Now MACE too is a private organization (as is GAE and PAGE). MACE is pro-profit and pays local, state, and federal taxes. Law firms are private. Medical offices and hospitals are private. (Some hospitals are publicly owned.) Car dealerships are private. Shopping malls are private. Restaurants are private. The Atlanta Braves is a private organization. There is nothing wrong with being private. In fact, our country is based upon private, free enterprise. But, when a private organization likes SACS is holding the PUBLIC school system hostage for fear that it will remove its “blessings” from it or that its school board members will be surreptitiously removed unless the school board genuflects and kisses SACS’ a_s, then something has gone awry. This seems to occur only where minorities are in control of the school boards too. This makes SACS’s actions even more suspicious. (c) MACE, April 8, 2011.
East Cobb Parent
April 8th, 2011
3:25 pm
Maureen – do free DJT’s post, I’ve felt for some time that SACS should be reined in a little.
Ed Johnson
April 8th, 2011
3:25 pm
@Dr No (“Work is work, fun is fun and the two do not intersect.”):
My latest consulting gig was so much fun I was tempted to pay the client for letting me do the work! Just food thought for the wise…
Cobb Teacher 2
April 8th, 2011
3:26 pm
And I also love this business of teaching children to be “good people” as noted above. What Kohn would define as a “good person” would not sit well with the average American unless you are faithless and have a total lack of respect for any authority whatsoever. Maureen has done a great job of making this far-left loon seem like a great advocate for teachers and children. Pick up one of his books or watch one of his videos to see for yourself what his true intentions are. It won’t take long. My entire graduate class walked out of a showing of one of his rants in very short order.
Dr. Who Are You
April 8th, 2011
4:06 pm
How do the Japanese run their schools?
Cobb Teacher 2
April 8th, 2011
4:20 pm
Dr. Who Are You: Why does that matter? Japan doesn’t have NEAR the diversity that we have here in the U.S. You can’t compare the two.
Teacher Educator
April 8th, 2011
4:21 pm
Having taught at both public and private schools, I can assure you Kohn’s assertions are spot on for many public school classrooms. Children naturally want to ask questions and learn when they are young but schools beat this curiosity out of them very early on. I have worked with children of all ages (currently at the university level) and all of my students wanted to learn about something but often it was not the required curriculum that they were interested in learning! Gifted teachers can certainly use the interests of the students as a platform for teaching the state/national standards but this does require more work. It also requires administrators that support the teachers as professionals. Tests are not the issue because they are typically only given once per year. The real issue is the ridiculous amount of time spent preparing for tests. Theoretically, if we teach the standards (in multiple ways that all kids can understand) then the kids should pass the test (IF they can read in English and IF they can actually read at the grade level the test is written at…etc.). By the way, none of the private schools I have worked in (or consulted with) have ever engaged in test prep and the kids do extremely well. Yes, different SES levels and more parent support typically exist in these populations…might this also be a factor? Could poverty actually play a role in putting kids at risk? Why do we continue to ignore the many factors that contribute to school success (or failure) and blame the teachers?
@CobbTeacher2- Is walking out of a presentation instead of engaging in healthy debate problematic for you? I certainly would have encouraged my graduate students (or even undergraduates) to engage in dialogue and offer intellectual alternatives to Kohn’s thoughts if they did not agree.
Ed Johnson
April 8th, 2011
4:23 pm
@Dr. Who Are You (“How do the Japanese run their schools?”):
Here’s an example, the first part of five:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=armP8TfS9Is&feature=related
John
April 8th, 2011
4:30 pm
Kohn says, “Standardized tests like the CRCT measure what matters least.” It is easy to make such an indictment of the CRCT, but look at the tests and say just what is on the tests that matters the least. Is it the ability to work with fractions, to do algebra, to read and understand a passage, the knowledge of properties of matter? Will Kohn, or any critic, give a list of what is measured and then explain just what is measured that “matters least?”
That said, the way APS prepares students, and the way that every metro system that I know prepares students, for the GCRT is over the top. More learning would take place if every school system would agree to the same small amount of test preparation beyond normal instruction.
So, MS Downey, can you say what the tests are measuring the is the least important?
watching
April 8th, 2011
4:39 pm
Great article, Maureen. I especially love the line about kids sitting in chairs all in a row. That visual alone illustrates how out of balance we, as a society, are in our thinking. What we have today is an educational system run solely by left-brain folks. We have that because neither our schools, nor our testing, champion right-brain thinking. With no innovation you stay stuck, right where you were 50 years ago . . . sitting in chairs, all in a row, learning cursive and writing with #2 pencils. Vouchers won’t solve the problem. Privatization won’t solve the problem. Those just serve to punish the present system — simply wasted energy. We need to call in some good strong right-brain educational innovators, put them in a room with an equal number of left-brainers, and I guarantee we’ll move forward at record speed. It’s all about balance.
Scott Allen
April 8th, 2011
4:54 pm
Kohn gives a nice speech but needs to get his head out of the clouds. Turning every teacher loose to do what they deem best is anarchy. Where he might have a point is that if our standards aren’t what we really want kids to know and be able to do, we should adjust those standards accordingly. I’d have no complaint about adding more problem-solving expectations to student standards. Although I’m pretty sure the GPS is full of them.
For the most part, I’m not concerned about the kids who can pass a standardized test (which, contrary to a completely subjective “grade”, actually indicates some learning has happened). I’m worried about the kids who *can’t* pass said test, is clearly several grades behind in math or reading, yet is socially promoted right along and then struggles to pass a high school graduation test that a 9th grader should be able to pass.
Oh and about the “discovery” idea. In my high school experience, it’s bogus. Today’s students are generally lazy and unmotivated. When the new math curriculum gave students new activities and opportunities to explore concepts deeply, they checked out… partly because their basic skills were so weak that they didn’t have the tools to discover anything, and partly because they had no intrinsic desire to understand math better. Without a skill-based curriculum, there can be no meaningful discovery.
Ed Johnson
April 8th, 2011
5:12 pm
“[I]f our standards aren’t what we really want kids to know and be able to do, we should adjust those standards accordingly.”
Yeap, let’s keep figuring out how to do the wrong thing better. That will solve the problem.
“Today’s students are generally lazy and unmotivated.”
Yeap, and of course the way school systems are managed from the top has nothing to do with the kids bing lazy and unmotivated, right?
Cindy Lutenbacher
April 8th, 2011
5:17 pm
Yes, Trotter, Honeyfern, Another View, and Kohn are all onto what actually works. I’ve long followed the work of Alfie Kohn not only because his ideas have intellectual merit, but also because they work. Kohn has been researching, writing, using, and publishing these ideas since 1986 (first book). When humans are engaged, true learning occurs. When humans learn for the sake of a test, fake “learning” occurs; in other words, the material doesn’t go very deep and usually doesn’t stay with the person. Most of us can remember a handful of things that were stuffed into us, but the things that mattered are not the things that are found in standardized testing. The things that matter are the things that engage us on deeper levels. Research and experience demonstrate this truth over and over.
I speak as a teacher of twenty-five years and public school parent of sixteen years and as one who has studied these matters throughout my teaching career.
Teacher Reader
April 8th, 2011
5:22 pm
Kohn has not a clue of what he talks and writes about. I agree with Cobb Teacher 2. I remember in graduate school having to read one of his books and thought to myself, that this guy knows not of what he speaks and is making money for the garbage in this book.
The problem with testing isn’t necessarily the test. The problem is that in many cases teachers aren’t able to truly educate children. We are not able to give students the grades that they earn. We must pass on students that have not mastered standards. We must give students grades no less than a 70 whether it is deserved or not.
Also, teaching to the test is not the answer. Providing students with a solid education where they are required to think and explore the concepts being taught will enable students to do well on the test. Also, students taking the tests seriously and working hard at the tests. I have often seen students not take the tests seriously and finish a 60 question test in less than 15 or 30 minutes.
The tests are not racist. Many teachers are doing what they are being told to do, because they need their job.
Having worked in the inner city in several cities in our nation, low income parents do struggle to make ends meet, but what many value is stuff and not an education. I remember my students whose parents were all on welfare coming with new Michael Jordan gym shoes every six months back when Micheal Jordan was all that. We’re talking about $100 sneakers, that my husband and I could not afford for us to have. Or the cable tv with HBO, and the rest of the pay per view channels, also something that my teacher salary did not allow us to afford. What I have seen by many poor in the inner city that they believe that they need to give their children stuff and not focus so much on education. These parents were worried about a child’s behavior, but not always worried about troubles or extra help that the child needed to understand a specific concept. As a white teacher usually in all black schools, I have heard more than one occasion that I was trying to make my students white, when I was simply trying to educate them, hold them to the high standards that I would want for my own children to be held to and offer the children the education I demand for my own children. Until education is valued, and excuses are stopped, test scores will improve in slow increments and our children will be poorly educated in public schools.
Cobb Teacher 2
April 8th, 2011
5:41 pm
@Watching: Say what you want about desks in rows, but research has shown this is the best arrangement for learning. I have children at tables currently and hate it. They are unfocused, have no personal space, and the “communtiy bucket” way of sharing supplies has brought on more problems I care to discuss. Sounds nice….kids working happily in groups. Just not reality.
watching
April 8th, 2011
5:54 pm
@ Cobb Teacher 2 – I agree, tables aren’t the answer either. Therein lies my point. Think outside the box, the desk, the table. Maybe sitting is the problem.
Laurie
April 8th, 2011
6:09 pm
“Work is work, fun is fun and the two do not intersect.”
Translation: I was hazed; so too shall you be hazed. My life is unpleasant; hence, yours must needs be unpleasant as well.
Dekalb Middle Teacher
April 8th, 2011
6:15 pm
@ Teacher Reader – I would have to agree with you on many points. I used to teach outside of LA in low-income/ minority schools (7th and 9th grades) and I found that these students main obstacle was their parents’ lack of “parenting” and their basic lack of value in an education. Many of these students were very bright and could have easily passed any test given to them had they put forth time and effort. But they did not. They watched the examples of their parents and choose to value things and not an education.
And how is doing away with testing helping anyone? As someone pointed out, you have to take a test to get your license; you have to take a test to become a teacher, lawyer, electrician and even waitress (I waited tables in college and had to take math test).
While I do not agree with the way we are currently testing our kids, there is a value to it and it helps to prepare them for the future. What would we do if the first test a kid ever took was the SAT or driving test?
Not Buying It
April 8th, 2011
6:17 pm
@ Cobb Teacher 2…
Who saws the standards are worth a flip to begin with? Why as a teacher are my students supposed to learn about Irving Berlin and Tin Pan Alley yet Malcolm X is not in the standards? Why do they need to know the Battle of Verdun but not the Marne? Who makes the standards? The problem with standards is that districts then try to impose an artificial pacing guide to teach them. I’m supposed to teach the founding of the nation to the Constitution in 2 weeks! My proposal is to let me teach what I want. We can still test in the social studies but give the students three essays to write out of say five choices and let them choose. The essays would be open-ended enough to allow students to demonstrate what they learned but allow for some choice as to not penalize them for what their teacher did or did not teach, sort of what happens on some of the AP essay questions. It can’t be worse than what is done now. All we do is trivia pursuit. This way at least students would get depth instead of just scratching the surface.
There is a big push for performance tasks in the schools but you can’t do it when you are supposed to teach the period from Jefferson to the start of the Civil War in 2 weeks. When I was in school a long time ago we barely got to the Cold War in World History but I have a knowledge bank vastly superior to what students enter my classroom with because I had the opportunity to dig into the history with teachers that were not confined by an arbitrary set of standards.
Cobb Teacher 2
April 8th, 2011
6:22 pm
@Watching: Are you a teacher?
What exactly is meant by saying that that the CRCT measures things that are the least important? So, reading comprehension isn’t important? Math computation, problem-solving, geometry, measurement, data interpretation…none of this is important? I know people feel spelling and grammar are no longer important, that is until you realize your resume sits at the bottom of every hiring manger’s pile because you have no command of the English language. These skills are the foundation of all learning and cannot be skipped.
We are all about higher order thinking these days. Great. I’m all for it. As long as students have mastered basic skills. This means that the child should read on grade level, be able to construct quality sentences and paragraphs, be fluent in basic math facts at grade level, and have decent learning and organizational behaviors. Then, and only then, is a student ready for that wonderful discovery that can and DOES happen in today’s classrooms. You have to know enough to know what you are seeing and discovering. Let’s not put the cart before the horse.
@Scott Allen: Wonderful comments! I agree wholeheartedly.
Not Buying It
April 8th, 2011
6:31 pm
@ Teacher Reader
Agree with some aspects of what you say but its too easy to just blame poor people. You value education because you went to a school that was worth a darn. If you are poor more likely than not you went to a school that had teachers, administrators, a district and a state that did not really value your education. Your school was a visible wreck and you knew inside that the education you were receiving was a joke. Well why do immigrants from poor countries outperfrom many of our native born students? Although they may have went to schools that were physically inferior they have talented teachers that are respected in their societies. Students know they are receiving a good education because they witness it. Kids are not stupid and they know when a teacher is mailing it in or is putting forth their best effort. It’s just not as simple as saying that parents need to parent and stop buying their kids high priced sneakers. I work in one of the schools with the kids you mention and very seldom see $100 sneakers more often than not I see kids with no coats in the winter or smell a students who could not take a bath the night before because the water was shut off.
TeacherMom4
April 8th, 2011
7:11 pm
My experience in school as a student is totally different than my students’ experiences. The reason is pretty simple. I always liked school but understood that there were things I would have to learn whether I wanted to or not. It simply did not occur to me or my friends that there was any option but to suck it up and learn. My students, fifth graders, seem to believe that their interest in a subject should dictate whether they learn anything about it. Many, if not most, have no motivation to learn a thing, unless it relates to their own social life, but it does not occur to them that it their responsibility to put forth effort, interested or not.
That said, I would love to have fewer standards that are specified within a content area and more latitude in how I taught them and how much time to spend on a particular topic. I would love to see interest sparked in my students and then follow it. When teachers are passionate about what they teach they are much more likely to inspire interest in their students. Unfortunately, the narcissistic students combined with the relentless pacing calendars and testing, make engaging our students nearly impossible. The types of activities the kids enjoy consume more instructional time than most topics are allotted. The other issue is students’ self-discipline. If students will not use their time as it’s intended, no matter how many chances they are given, it does no good to plan engaging student centered lessons. They will learn nothing curriculum related.
Do schools need to change? Absolutely. Does society need to change the values kids are bringing to school? Absolutely. I don’t think testing is wrong, per se, but it is being overused and used as a weapon rather than as a diagnostic tool. Off topic, but If you want to judge me (and pay me) in my Title I school based on test scores, at least do me the courtesy of a pre and post test so progress can be based not just on where students should be but where they started as well.
Dekalb Middle Teacher
April 8th, 2011
7:15 pm
“Do schools need to change? Absolutely. Does society need to change the values kids are bringing to school? Absolutely. I don’t think testing is wrong, per se, but it is being overused and used as a weapon rather than as a diagnostic tool. Off topic, but If you want to judge me (and pay me) in my Title I school based on test scores, at least do me the courtesy of a pre and post test so progress can be based not just on where students should be but where they started as well.”
Very well said!
East Cobb Parent
April 8th, 2011
7:31 pm
I agree with Teacher Reader, but I do think the tide is changing. I see more and more mid and upper middle income kids and parents who no longer value education. Instead I hear how teachers/coaches/parents should be more sensitive to the needs or the difficult time the student is going through. Parents seek excuses for behavior instead of parenting. A brief discussion with my children’s pediatrician this week confirmed that most parents don’t ask “is this normal” or “what should I do” instead they ask “which prescription does my child need” or “what does my child have that causes (fill in the blank)”. People simply don’t want to parent unless given the perfect self-raised child from Lake Woebegone.
Dekalb Middle Teacher
April 8th, 2011
7:34 pm
@ Not Buying It
While I previously agreed with Teacher Reader (and still do) I wanted to comment on your below statement because I think it is a huge problem that has little to do with income and a lot to do with values (as I mentioned in my earlier post and Teacher Reader has touched on).
“Well why do immigrants from poor countries out perform many of our native born students?” Because they are taught values; they are taught hard work and perhaps because they do not have governments that give them handouts. They have no choice but to better their futures with an education.
In addition to teaching at a low-income mostly black school in LA, I have also taught in China and Peru. The kids in Peru and China often had no food, lacked any materials such as pencils and paper and often did not even have shoes, much less $100 sneakers. However they always came eager to learn. They always respected me and all other teachers and were very appreciate for the education they were being offered. And these kids did not go home to play video games; they went home to cook, farm and many other forms of manual labor. And yes, these kids performed very well on standardized tests we gave them.
My point is this: Whether we have standardized tests or not, whether we get a new BOE for APS, little will change without encouraging cultural changes. And by that I mean teaching generations of kids to stop valuing things and value and education. Realize they have value and with a little work they can achieve something more than what their parents had. They do not have to end up in jail, pregnant or dropping out. I think that there is a real problem in certain cultures and income has little to do with it.
Atlanta Police Chief was recently quoted discussing his reasons for why crime has changed in Atlanta. “Well, we’ve got social ills in our city. Back in 1972 APS had a dropout rate of less than 5 percent. In 2009, APS had students with a better-than-50 percent dropout rate. So you have young people-the majority being young, black males-who are not educated, no trade, no skills, and they’re trapped.”
Is this to blame on CRCT?
Dekalb Middle Teacher
April 8th, 2011
7:40 pm
Last comment
@East Cobb Parent Your comment is sadly true and very scary for the future. We have created a culture of instant gratification where everyone is a winner. We cater to sue-happy parents so much so that I have been forced to pass 5th graders that cannot even read! I have kids on my soccer team that have no business playing and only made the team due to threats from parents. Consequently the kids don’t bother to practice and better themselves since they know they can’t be kicked off.
GRAY GHOST OR WHITE KNIGHT
April 8th, 2011
7:42 pm
Coach Trotter of Fulton High School, Atlanta, Ga 1960’s ?
Contact B. White
353 N Glynn St
Fayetteville, Ga 30214
Class reunions held regularly. Our next one is the Big 50 in 2014;
Classes 63-65, maybe more. Usually in October in Peachtree City.
E. Chapman ‘64
I bet everyone would like to see you.
Cobb Teacher 2
April 8th, 2011
7:55 pm
@Teacher Educator: No, walking out on that particular presentation was not problematic for me, or for the other 20 or so teachers in that class. We had already engaged in hours of “healthy debate” with this professor. The presentation was hateful, disrespectful, and quite frankly, false on every level. Conversatation is one thing. Indoctrination is another, and that was exactly this professor’s goal.
For the record, that is the only time I have ever walked out on a class. I engage in many forms of discussion daily and am a champion debater. Putting together a thoughful opinion isn’t and has never been a problem for me.
tt
April 8th, 2011
8:01 pm
Real info won’t post. Just know things in Ja*pan are now MUCH worse. Seek alternative media.
Teacher Educator
April 8th, 2011
8:13 pm
@Cobb Teacher 2: Can you please cite a few recent research articles that say sitting in desks and rows is the best way for kids to learn? I have seen exactly the opposite.
Cobb Teacher 2
April 8th, 2011
8:15 pm
Teacher Educator: I will be happy to find some. How do students sit in your class, what are their ages, and how does that work for you?
Teacher Educator
April 8th, 2011
8:28 pm
@ Cobb Teacher 2: I have taught elementary, middle school and university students. None of those classes were taught using desks and rows. My students talked when they were supposed to and it worked well. Of course, I had to teach them in the beginning of the year how we work in groups and what not to do. If a few students needed personal space, they could take their chair and go to another table. Students have to be taught to work in groups (the real world functions in teams) and accomplish tasks effectively. I have yet to hear about a company using desks and rows. Lack of classroom management is often the reason teachers cite for different classroom arrangements not working and yet we know kids need to be able to work in groups. There are times for individual work as well.
Teacher Educator
April 8th, 2011
8:34 pm
I would also add that tables are less effective for individual tasks and learning spaces (cubbies/dividers) would be more beneficial here for younger students. Perhaps it’s best to say the seating arrangement should be dictated by the learning task.
Cobb Teacher 2
April 8th, 2011
8:48 pm
@Not Buying It: I do understand your frustration with standards and pacing guides. Clearly, there is a difference between standards in elementary and secondary education. As a first grade teacher, I see value in every standard I teach. I have also taught second, fifth, and sixth grades and I will say that as students get older, some standards seem less relevant.
However difficult and unrealistic they may seem, pacing guides are needed. Whether you follow a state curriculum or write your own, you have to have at least some sort of plan for how you will organize and present information. Pacing guides keep parents informed of what their children are learning and help schools with high levels of transiency. I work in such a school and every time I get a new student it is easy for me to determine where they are, thanks to the pacing guide. They aren’t perfect, and I wish more teachers were consulted in their design.
If you feel there are important historical figures that your students need to know about, then teach them! Just because you have standards doesn’t mean you can’t go beyond them or link other topics/people to them in some way. I’m a huge baseball fan and every class I have ever taught knows about Jackie Robinson. Robinson is a part of the standards for second grade, but I can easily incorporate him in reading groups, Black History Month activities, and writing for other grades.
I would argue that allowing a teacher, especially a history teacher, to “do what they want” would be very dangerous. There are just too many opinions about historical events and figures and I don’t trust every teacher to present those events accurately and fairly. Standards are a must for this reason.
You also bring up another age-old question in eduation: Is it better to know a little about a lot of topics, or have a deep understanding about a few? We don’t know where our students are headed, so for the purpose of K-12 education, I believe it is best to present a wide variety of topics that students can study in-depth at a later time.
Cobb Teacher 2
April 8th, 2011
9:00 pm
Teacher Educator: With ten years of experience behind me, you aren’t telling me anything I don’t already know. I realize management is key no matter what the learning task. I see the value in group work and teach/use that method at times. However, I find individual work much more valuable.
Parts of the real world function in teams, but few teams function well. You would think a group of teachers would be able to come together to complete a task, but human nature takes over and a few people end up doing the majority of the work. I can think of very few times where this wasn’t the case.
I agree with that the seating arrangement depends on the learning task. I wish I could easily change the arrangement for every task, but space/time constraints make that difficult.
tt
April 8th, 2011
9:10 pm
“We don’t know where our students are headed, so for the purpose of K-12 education, I believe it is best to present a wide variety of topics that students can study in-depth at a later time.”
Home schoolers have a much better understanding of where their child’s strengths/talents lie and intuitively organize the curriculum around this. Less time is wasted and students can specialize earlier. Artistically talented children are totally neglected in public school, and trying to develop their art talent in high school or college is just too late. Home school gifted children are allowed to pursue their passions early and advance at their own pace. This is why many home schoolers have a natural curiosity and love of learning.
Cobb Teacher 2
April 8th, 2011
9:41 pm
tt: I agree. It’s a shame more parents can’t homeschool their children.
Cobb Teacher 2
April 8th, 2011
9:43 pm
tt: Even if a parent is unable to homeschool, they can still find lots of ways to nuture their children, no matter what ability or talent.
Wilma
April 8th, 2011
9:46 pm
Kohn makes no room for parents. Many parents have made it quite clear that when the teachers don’t leave room for parental infuence, the parents make other arrangements. Parents are a vital part of education and must not be ignored as inconvienient instrusions to the professionals.
Dr. John Trotter
April 8th, 2011
10:01 pm
@ East Cobb Parent: It would be nice if I could announce to a school board the following: “If 60% of your teachers don’t join MACE, then MACE will revoke the MACE Accreditation from your county, and your county needs this MACE Accreditation or you kids can’t have HOPE Scholarship (if they is any left).” SACS is nothing more than a private organization which has snookered (to use Dr. No’s recent verb) states and school systems into thinking that its “accreditation” is worth anything. If we simply say that it is “useless,” then it becomes useless. I think that SACS’s accreditation is hollow…based mainly on money. The school systems have to pay a hefty fee to SACS for this accreditation for the system and for each school within the system. And, should SACS spank a school system, then the system has to pay for remedial measures (written materials, visits, etc.). In my opinion, SACS is a racket. I don’t see a “service” rendered. I see SACS like I see those charlatan preachers who essentially dangle their parishioners over the pit of h_ll if they don’t “tithe” their salaries to the preachers who are not accountable to anyone. SACS is not accountable to the State or to the public in any way. I see SACS like these so-called bishops or reverends who are extorting money…based on the fear of going to educational hell (no accreditation).
Dr. John Trotter
April 8th, 2011
10:10 pm
Part II of my previous post…
Now MACE too is a private organization (as are the other educational organizations). MACE is pro-profit and pays local, state, and federal taxes. Law firms are private. Medical offices and hospitals are private. (Some hospitals are publicly owned.) Car dealerships are private. Shopping malls are private. Restaurants are private. The Atlanta Braves is a private organization. There is nothing wrong with being private. In fact, our country is based upon private, free enterprise. But, when a private organization likes SACS is holding the PUBLIC school system hostage for fear that it will remove its “blessings” from it or that its school board members will be surreptitiously removed unless the school board genuflects and kisses SACS’ a_s, then something has gone awry. This seems to occur only where people who are in control are those people whom SACS apparently does not want to be in control. I think the issue is about who is in control. I think that SACS takes personal sides in each situation. This makes SACS’s actions even more suspicious. (c) MACE, April 8, 2011.
d
April 8th, 2011
10:14 pm
I apologize for what will be a bit of randomness here, but I have several different thoughts and I just want to get them all out.
1) Should we have tests like CRCT every year or EOCT/GHSGT….. Yes and no. I am not a fan of the administration of CRCT annually as a sole picture of what was learned. I am not a fan of the state taking over my final exam weeks before the actual end of course which causes me to accelerate the content of the course to meet a deadline for testing (May 2 in the case of the current semester. This eliminates 21 hours that could be dedicated to actual instruction (19.5 if you take one day for an actual final exam on a block schedule). I am in favor of GHSGT as some sort of gateway test to ensure that students have *learned* the material they should have, but not as a measure of whether or not the teachers are doing their job. We’re spending so much time focusing on the “bad” teacher that we miss the good stuff happening in the classrooms.
2) There is a difference between assessment and testing. The problem we’re facing is that we do not allow teachers to actually do their job. We are focusing on test prep, not assessment. I can’t think of how many times I’ve uttered the line “this is EOCT material” (hoping that it actually is based upon the sample questions I have seen in Georgia OAS). In DeKalb, we are giving the End of Semester benchmark next week (although it has been shortened to reduce some of the questions on the last unit that I haven’t covered yet). Just imagine how many other activities and simulations I could include in my lessons if I wasn’t tied to this blasted testing schedule and I could actually assess my students. I am currently taking a PD class on understanding student needs. A quote from the class “If a teacher is not constantly assessing, the he or she isn’t really teaching.” The quote wasn’t “If a teacher is not constantly testing….”
3) Of my students who failed the EOCT last semester, I had 3 come to me to tell me they became physically ill during the test (test anxiety most likely) and one who was thrown out of the test after answering 12 questions because of a cell phone issue. I had at least 8 others admit to me that they were up late the night before, but not one of them actually used any of the time to study. I can’t tell you how many of the students tell me that the 15% is little incentive to them to do well because in the end, it doesn’t make that large of a difference in their overall course grade. Yet I, the teacher, am held accountable, not the actual students.
4) I have argued this before and I will say it again, the best way to assess student learning is a portfolio system using student work samples throughout the course of a semester – with some sort of pre-assessment activity and showing progress through each unit. Who, however, will take the time to grade and evaluate (two separate things) these portfolios. It is so much cheaper and quicker to run Scantrons.
5) I will only point to the emails and visits from former students telling me how much better prepared they were than their peers in their college level courses because they remembered what I taught them. Yes, I have standards. Yes I feel these are necessary to focus teachers in on the important concepts. I just ask to be treated like a professional and have input in creating those standards (or my colleagues who also have experience in my field). I do not need legislators like the one in Tennessee who basically told teachers to stay out of the way and mind their place in society, because the legislators were the warriors who were going to remake education (even though they haven’t a clue what is actually going on in classrooms).
6) Although my initial fears about Nathan Deal haven’t been settled fully, after seeing Scott Walker, Rick Scott and Paul LePage in action, I’m glad we have a mainstream Republican in the Governor’s Mansion and not one of the 21st century version Radical Republicans in office.
Dr. John Trotter
April 8th, 2011
10:19 pm
I have tried and tried to post Part II of my previous post. I have taken every conceivable word out that might offend even the least sensitive person. Maureen, what is going on? This post has been blocked all day. Finally, the first paragraph was published. Someone whom I talked with tonight said that he heard on the news that there was going to be a story (or has already been a story) about SACS. I presume on sister company, WSB-TV 2. I know that AJC reporter Megan Metauecci (I hope I spelled this correctly) called the MACE Office a couple of weeks ago and wanted to talk to me about SACS. I returned Megan’s call but never heard anything else. A few months ago, another reporter from the AJC kept calling me. We finally talked — for at least 30 minutes — about SACS. Is the AJC coming out with some Earth-shattering story about SACS? Ha!
I am just curious about what is in my Part II about SACS that keeps it from being posted. It’s not really that profound…just regular Trotterise railing against SACS.
Dr. John Trotter
April 8th, 2011
10:38 pm
http://www.wsbtv.com/news/27483308/detail.html
The above is a link to the story on WSB-TV 2. I just watched it. I have been saying for years that Mark Elgart takes sides as to who will have control on the school boards. That is what happened in Clayton County. My colleague, Norreese Haynes, was having too much influence to suit Ericka Davis (a LaChandra Butler-Burks type), and she and Rod Johnson called upon SACS (and Eldrin Bell and his dirty tricks) to take out Mr. Haynes. Haynes had many fellow school board members siding with him…like the situation with Mr. Khaatim El in Atlanta. In fact, the school board attorney apparently told Mr. Haynes, “Everyone knows that after the next election, you are going to be the new chairman.”
I have been saying for years that Mark Elgart is an educational phony and that SACS is a money-grabbing organization that likes to masquerade as if it is some do-gooder organization for our children. SACS is about money, pure and simple, and Mark Elgart is in control of SACS.
not shocked
April 8th, 2011
11:16 pm
Trotter, you may be winning me over….