Corporal punishment: Why are we still hitting students in schools?

APS Teacher

March 30th, 2011
9:02 am

Maureen,

This doesn’t just go on in “rural Georgia.” In the lowest income APS schools, hitting, pinching, taping mouths shut, flicking children on the forehead, etc. are all COMMON discipline practices. The rational is always that this is the way their parents discipline them so it is how we have to discipline them too. It is outrageous.

Dr NO

March 30th, 2011
9:06 am

I agree with corporal punishment. This molly-coddling, everyone is good, enabling mentality, positive reinforcement crapola doesnt work. If a child is aware of certain consequences then more often than not they will shy away from actions that might bring on such consequences.

Of course this only works in say 6th grade and below.

Tokyo Toto

March 30th, 2011
9:36 am

Hmmmm. Could there be a connection ?

“Caning in Singapore:
Caning is also a legal form of punishment for delinquent male members of the military (Singapore Armed Forces — SAF) and this is administered in the SAF Detention Barracks. Caning is also an official punishment in reform schools and as a prison disciplinary measure.
In a milder form, caning is used to punish male youths in many Singaporean schools for serious misbehaviour.
A much smaller cane or other implement is also used by some parents as punishment for their children of either sex. This is not outlawed in Singapore.”

“Study Rates Singapore Best In Math, Science”
http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/rvp/pubaf/chronicle/v5/N27/timss.html

ScienceTeacher671

March 30th, 2011
9:39 am

“Why are we still hitting children in schools?” Apparently it’s that pesky “local control” thing.

My district doesn’t spank, and hasn’t for somewhere near 20 years.

Regardless, I’ve had several parents urge me to whack their children if said children misbehaved in my class. I have NOT taken them up on the offer. I do not want to spank a teenager, mine or anyone else’s. Period.

TinaTeach

March 30th, 2011
9:41 am

Ditto Dr. NO. Corporal punishment has a place in the discipline scheme of any elementary school. It should be used sparingly and in conjunction with other punishments like detention.

Exteacher

March 30th, 2011
9:41 am

The biggest reason to rid schools of this form of discipline is abuse of power. I remember and if you are over 50, you do too, those teachers who seemed to enjoy dishing out this sort of punishment, sometimes for the most menial of problems, like basketball tossing a ball of paper trash. I remember a fifth grade teacher who at one point paddled his whole class for failing a test! Texas is famous for this sort of thing. Add to that that spanking can be a very sexual and power/dominant experience- do you know how many spanking websites there are? Just the presence of these is enough to give pause to encouraging this practice. Most of the folks on these sites/blogs/groups got their start in school, and a remarkable number come from Texas, the paddling kingdom of the US. Not that consenting adults can’t engage in this practice, but you can bet some of them are practicing on kids at school and probably at home too. Brutalizing students or your kids is not civilized.

Gertie T. Wilbanks, III

March 30th, 2011
9:43 am

Because it works and is not cruel. Next question…

Gail

March 30th, 2011
9:53 am

I have mixed feelings on this. I did not spank my children. However, I do think that some of the reason for the difference in the # of discipline problems in schools today vs the discipline problems we had when I was in school is that back then, students knew that if they disrupted the class they would be sent to the principal for a little “whacking.” I do think that paddlings as severe as mentioned above are wrong.

Tokyo Toto

March 30th, 2011
10:03 am

If a two-year-old sticks his finger in the fire, what happens?
I guess we should outlaw fire!

Bob Brown

March 30th, 2011
10:03 am

Why are we still hitting students?

Because they’re allowed to run wild at home? Because their parents have taught them that there are no consequences to any actions?

Consider the kid in the New York Times story: three licks for skipping detention. He had already gotten into trouble, but decided the penalty didn’t apply to him. Do you suppose double detention would have worked?

Corporal punishment should not cause injury, just some bright and sudden pain. There’s not enough information in the story to evaluate whether the child was injured. “Ended up in the hospital” could mean a real injury, but it could also mean she took the little brat to the already overloaded emergency department for no reason other than perhaps to set up a lawsuit.

Ashley

March 30th, 2011
10:14 am

The hypocrisy of some school systems galls me to no end. You say you want to bring education into the 21st century , with all your bells and whistles. You cry foul to anyone who wants their kids taught the old-fashion. Their cell-phones and computers are more a part of the student norm than homework, but yet you still practice corporal punishment. Doesn’t sound like you’re moving forward to me. I’ve seen some of these 15 and 16 years who have been charged with adult crimes; lets just say teenagers did not look like adults 30 years ago, some are very intimidating nowadays. Oh and by the way , parents would be arrested for some of the very things you implement in schools.

Inman Park Boy

March 30th, 2011
10:16 am

Quiet day in the newsroom, eh? As far as I know, no rational teacher has struck a child in years. Systems that still do this are asking for a lawsuit.

Batgirl

March 30th, 2011
10:17 am

Administrators in my system still paddle but must have the parents’ permission. Many kids will opt for a paddling rather than sit in ISS for several days. Teachers who were around when they were allowed to paddle say that they only had to give 1-2 paddlings early in the year, and that would take care of most discipline problems for the year. It is swift and gets the problem over with so that everyone can go back to work rather than dragging the situation out for several days with the student missing class while he/she sits in ISS.

I am not opposed to ending corporal punishment, but those who want it ended must find something that works as well or better to take its place.

I have agreed with Dr. NO two days in a row. This must be a sign of the apocalypse!

Me

March 30th, 2011
10:25 am

The idea of caning a kid doesn’t feel warm n fuzzy rolling around in my head, but let’s ask another question.

Little Johnny is a current day 12 year old that has grown up so far in this “generation of entitlement” and is now behaving in the manner that suits. Talking back, destroying property, bullying others are just a few of his offenses. He’s had “restriction” at home, detention at school and feel good family and individual therapy, none have made a dent in Johnny’s baditude. What gets his attention?

Does he get written off at school as a bad kid since the parents haven’t been able to reach him? Coddling to death is just as cruel as a good old fashioned spanking. And the spanked kids *hopefully* won’t go through life believing that he is untouchable as most thugs do now.

Spanking isn’t always appropriate and certainly isn’t the ONLY answer, and it shouldn’t be the first action, but we have to stop treating our kids like little adults with all the rights and privileges that go with adulthood, b/c that’s certainly NOT working for us now!

William Casey

March 30th, 2011
10:33 am

I don’t believe that corporal punishment is effective with most teens, but I’ll tell you something that is: In-School Suspension. Not the glorified “study hall” that ISS has become today, but rather the well-conceived behavior modification program that Boyd Morley and I piloted at Pebblebrook HS back in the ’70’s and similar programs I administered at Crestwood in the ’80’s and Chattahoochee in the ’90’s.

It is too detailed to discuss here but its original name gives you the idea: “On-Campus Isolation..” There are some teens for whom this doesn’t work because they prefer being isolated from human contact. For most, though, it does.

Ashley

March 30th, 2011
10:35 am

@Maureen. read somewhere that they tried to paddle a young lady because they did’nt like the cut of her prom dress; I think it was in Anniston,Alabama. She was a high-school senior for God sake! Striking 17- 18 year olds…..well you be the judge.

Jack

March 30th, 2011
10:45 am

Mother Nature, in her wisdom, gave us a wonderful behavior-control device. It’s called “pain.” If we do something and it causes us pain, we learn not to do it again. That said, some don’t respond to pain the way we would like … and others tend to go overboard on the infliction of such.

All I know is … whenever I did something that got me a paddling/spanking, I never did it again.

Edjukatid in jawja

March 30th, 2011
10:50 am

So this is your big concern huh.A kid gets a bruise on his butt in texas and you are up in arms. It is beyond my comprehension how anyone could waste good print on such dribble when we have morons graduating high school. They dont even have basic writing skills and your worried about a paddle.What local school did you graduate from . And let me guess , you went to UGA

td

March 30th, 2011
11:06 am

Public humiliation is a strong deterrent and as such public spanking is still one of the best behavior modification tools a school can have. It does not and should not be abusive but spanking a child in front of his or her peers for disrespecting a teacher or being disruptive is a classroom will in a huge majority of the cases modify that behavior and that child will think twice before repeating the offence.

I am a believer in the Singapore canning principal for adults doing stupid things. They have less petty crime and less % of the population serving jail time of any democratic nation in the world.

PTC DAWG

March 30th, 2011
11:07 am

I say bring back paddling, etc. There was MUCH less violence in my school in the late 70’s toward teachers/students when there was actually a FEAR of punishment.

td

March 30th, 2011
11:12 am

William Casey

March 30th, 2011
10:33 am

I served some days in OCI in Cobb county in the early 80’s and it sure did stink and made me not want to ever go back. Two rows of the old time desk with a teacher (football coach) sitting at the front. You could not sleep (another day), could not talk (another day) and could not get out unitl all your work was complete. If your teachers did not send enough work then you starting with the letter A in a dictionary and started copying definitions.

Great program until the libs had to modify it because it was to “harsh”.

Earl of Ft. Liquordale

March 30th, 2011
11:32 am

Mr. Herschel T. Smith must have paddled me at least 20 times while I was a student at Atlanta’s Roosevelt High. I deserved everyone of those paddlings. These paddlings kept me in line. Otherwise, I would have dropped out of school. If I had gotten suspended every time I crossed the line (and I crossed many a line!), heck, I would have given up and quit school. Mr. Smith was like a daddy to us Roosevelt Boys. If we skipped classes to go down to the store down the hill on Glenwood, Mr. Smith would sometimes go hunting for us, bring us back to school, line us up and paddle us. If we cut up too much in Miss Taylor’s English class and frustrated her to no end, she would send us to Mr. Smith, and he would give us a tune-up. Heck, that’s how Miss Taylor kept us in line. If she threatened to send us to see Mr. Smith, we straightened up…for the time being. But, that’s all the relief that Miss Taylor needed at the moment. She was trying to teach conjugations!

Paddling was a rite of passage for us teenagers. We would stand outside Mr. Smith’s door and listen as he paddled our friends as we were waiting on our paddlings. We would giggle as we heard Bo Bo Turpin starting to whimper like a little girl every time he got paddled. We would rib the heck out of Bo Bo. He didn’t care. He had every girl in the school fawning over him. He was the pretty boy of Roosevelt, but he couldn’t take a good paddling.

A good paddling (and the threat of another) is what many of these kids need today. The kids are running the show. I have a nephew who still teaches in Clayton County (will complete his 30 years in 2015), and he says the ISS is a complete joke where the students laugh and cut up. Mr. William Casey, it’s nothing like the type of In-School Suspension that you ran at Pebblebrook High. Yes, this strict ISS will work too…total isolation. The students hate this isolation, but they don’t run ISS like this anymore. It’s just play time. This is true. Play time. The problem with the kids today? No discipline. No consequences for bad behavior. No pain. Yes, no pain. If we could not feel pain in our bodies, then our bodies would end up mangled and burned. Paddling inflicts some pain. Paddling should not be abused. Only administrators should employ it — and always with an adult witness. And, if a parent refuses to give his or her blessings to paddling, then let the parent know that your hands are then tied. The next time the kid is sent to the office for misconduct, send the student home for a few days to let mommie and daddy take care of him or her. This changes things immediately.

By the way, we still drop by to see Mr. Smith (very old now) when the Mrs. and I return to Atlanta. The Mrs. is still bemused that I could respect, admire, and cherish the friendship of a man who paddled me so much in school. I tell her, “Heck, that’s how we Roosevelt Boys knew that he cared for us.” Every now and then, I round up Bo Bo Turpin and Preston McElhenny, and we go the nursing home to visit Mr. Smith. We sit around and regale about our glorious days at Roosevelt and Cabbagetown. We laugh about how Bo Bo Turpin couldn’t take a paddling. We laughed so hard at Mr. Smith describing how Bo Bo looked when Mr. Smith caught all of us smoking behind Little Grocery in Cabbagetown. This was before we played Brown that night in basketball. He gave us a choice…five licks with a paddle or tell Coach Cartwright (and not get to play that night). We all chose the paddling. He took us back to the hill (Roosevelt was up on that glorious hill). He paddled us. Bo Bo still whimpered like a little girl, but that night, we beat Brown High for the City Championship. Bo Bo sank the two winning free throws with one second on the clocks and Pall Mall cigarette smoke still on his breath. We owe that City Championship to Mr. Smith’s “Board of Education.”

catlady

March 30th, 2011
11:42 am

I have mixed feelings on this. I agree with Batgirl, however. In the old days, used immediately and sparingly, a paddling did tend to dial it down for the rest of the year. Typically, not only did the offending child straighten up, but the rest of the class did, as well. Right now, with our repeat offenders, they have a feeling of power–THEY are in charge! Submitting to a paddling disrupts that worldview.

I also recall three kids whose parents were adamant that they not be paddled, for various reasons. All three have served time in jail. A coincidence? I don’t think so.

One of our current problems is children who have been raised to think they are “cock of the walk.” I’d love ideas to modify that behavior, before they either become victimizers or bums. As the behavior is positively reinforced, they take the rest of the class with them.

Stooge

March 30th, 2011
11:47 am

Why? Because it works for some students(I can hear the liberal yuppies already screaming) and disclipine in the schools quickly went to hell as soon as it was stopped.

Kim

March 30th, 2011
11:52 am

How about a glass detention room where all the other students could see you as they are changing classes? The embarrassment of that might be a deterrent.

Dr. John Trotter

March 30th, 2011
11:59 am

I see that my cousin Earl has already addressed the paddling issue. I couldn’t have said it better. Hey Earl, we’ll be down in Boca the last week of April. We will be monitoring the NAWWA Convention. NAWWA? Oh, that’s the National Association of Wimpy & Weasel Administrators. I hear that they break into sessions and hold hands, singing, “Kum Ba Ya.” They have “tear sessions” about the cruel and barbaric administrators who still use the paddle to keep some incorrigibles in line. The keynote speaker this year is Dr. Godfey G. Heinsfeld of the Sensitivity Training Center of Brooklyn. His topic this year: “The Positive Reinforcement of Giving Lollypops to Students Sent to the Office for Miscreant Conduct.” We will be picketing him. “Heinsfeld Must Go!” “Send Heinsfeld Back to Brooklyn!” “Give Heinsfeld a Lollypop…to His Ass!” “Heinsfeld Needs a Good Spanking!” “Heinsfeld Should Have Been Paddled…as a Kid!” Oh well, this ought to get the conventioneers all riled up! They will be spittin’ nickels on the sidewalks. The police will come. They will huff and puff. We will not be moved. But, Boca will never be the same!

David Sims

March 30th, 2011
12:02 pm

Pain is nature’s own learning motivator. Our ability to feel pain is what teaches us avoid hot objects, animals that bite, and jumping from high places. In non-injurious doses, it works as well for teaching small children to do right and to avoid doing wrong, as judged by their presumably wiser parents.

At some point, though, older children catch on to the game and gain the ability to rebel through any mild degree of corporal punishment. Teenagers are hard to frighten enough that they will change their behavior. You almost do have to break some bones or injure them enough to put them into a hospital. What continuing mild corporal punishment will do is harden the teenager’s personality, such that he becomes a criminal prepared to defy anything authority is willing to do to him. Once he is past his 18th birthday, there is no limit to how badly authority would hurt him, but he hasn’t come to appreciate that yet.

So it is best to use enough corporal punishment on young children that they don’t need much higher doses of it later in their lives.

sissyuga

March 30th, 2011
12:04 pm

223,000 students? Really? That is hardly a blip. Let’s blame the school system instead of looking at how disrespectful Tyler’s actions were. I bet he is a model child with a polite disposition about him. We are too focus on raising self esteem than true consequences (which are absent from home these days).

Georgia Coach

March 30th, 2011
12:13 pm

John T. Standing with a sign. Is that the sum total of your societal contribution? Oh, that and screwing MACE members out of $40 a month!

catlady

March 30th, 2011
12:18 pm

Lost comment @ about 11:50

Dr NO

March 30th, 2011
12:25 pm

Batgirl: “I have agreed with Dr. NO two days in a row. This must be a sign of the apocalypse!”

Everybody duck and cover…

Dr. John Trotter

March 30th, 2011
12:50 pm

@ Georgia Coach (and all of your other monikers): Oh, how those signs work! Ha! And you loved them too when you were a MACE member. In fact, you begged for those signs. Should I name the schools? Ha! You and I both know that we hardly ever close the MACE Office until 11:00 PM each week night (and sometimes at midnight) — and here lately even on Friday nights! Yeah, we must be doing one or two things well, wouldn’t you say? The membership applications keep coming in each week. You can’t hide success. I am sorry that things didn’t work out for you with MACE, but we refuse to allow someone like you to pimp MACE for your own selfish reasons. I was reading recently how bitterness, resentment, and jealousy can really affect your health. I encourage you to to take care of your health, OK? Now I have to run to meet with a teacher whom I’ll represent in a grievance hearing before a school board tomorrow morning.

http://www.theteachersadvocate.com

South Georgia Teacher

March 30th, 2011
12:53 pm

Attendance is the secondary indicator for AYP, so suspension for misbehavior is a last resort. Students cannot spend more that 10 days in ISS (in-school suspension) and the parents don’t want to come to the school to deal with their children. Paddling works well for us.

APS teacher

March 30th, 2011
1:07 pm

Dr. T,
What happened with GA coach? Did he loose his non-renewal hearing?

gamom

March 30th, 2011
1:23 pm

Another injury was just reported in South Georgia – in http://www.thepostsearchlight.com

Inman Boy – you are sadly mistaken, this goes on way way too often. As the DOE for the stats and see for yourself. I forgot how many thousands of parents have to seek medical attention for their battered kids – at the hands of educators, and there is not much a parent can do. So parents – make sure to give them NO permission and expressly tell them in writing every single year – because oddly enough those opt out forms can get lost. For all those who trust an educator to whack a kid with the purest of hearts – you are absolutely nuts. No educator is trained in how to do it ‘properly’ whatever that is. There is no course on it. No regulation of the apparatus used – no mandate on size and weight of the paddler or for that matter what force is appropriate. HOW ABOUT NONE? When is the Georgia Legislature going to fix this? Even special needs kids are whacked – is that right? our most vulnerable children in the state of Georgia are subject to physical punishment. Shame on Us. And I am calling on the Georgia House Education Committee too fix this problem. The minute you sign any form to give the educators permission to smack your kid – you give up your rights. – because they are immune. SHAMEFUL

Joyce Meadows

March 30th, 2011
1:23 pm

BECAUSE THEY NEED IT!!! REMEMBER THEY ARE THE CHILDREN, TEACHERS ARE THE ADULTS AND ALSO SCHOOLED IN CHILD PSYCHOLOGY. A GRANDMOTHER OF FOUR.

gamom

March 30th, 2011
1:25 pm

Joyce – you would give permission to someone to whack your grandkids? Maybe you don’t realize that if the kid is injured you have no recourse. THINK!

Georgia Coach

March 30th, 2011
1:39 pm

Georgia Coach only has one moniker as Maureen could attest. He is a happilly employed educator who would never join Trotter’s collection of low performing dues payers.

Name whatever school you want because I am not who you think I am, Johhny boy!!

gamom

March 30th, 2011
1:56 pm

Is Hall County considered metro?

gamom

March 30th, 2011
2:12 pm

@ ExTeacher – TX already has a bill in the works introduced by Rep Alma Allen – Now we’ve got TX moving ahead of Georgia.. Go figure

drew (former teacher)

March 30th, 2011
2:23 pm

Why are we still hitting students in school?

Because with some students it works! And by “works”, I mean it causes some students to change their behavior for the better. And as long as the parents signed-off on it, there’s no reason for anyone to get their panties in a wad over it.

Julie Worley

March 30th, 2011
2:24 pm

3/25/2011 the NLGA (National Lieutenant Governors Association) passed the Corporal Punishment resolution without discussion, “encouraging state and territorial governments to consider the elimination of corporal punishment in our schools…”

Pain as Punishment of schoolchildren has no place in America’s schools!

Governor Martinez Must Sign Legislation to End School Paddling of Schoolchildren in New Mexico Shools as approved by both the House HB 172 and the Senate SB 319.

Governor Perry Must Abolish Pain as Punishment of Texas Schoolchildren Now by Enacting TX HB 916! Banned in Texas Capitol City of Austin, Illegal in Schools in 30 states and Prohibited by Federal Law against convicted Felons in Prisons!

According to the latest data collection of the U.S. Department of Education, Office for Civil Rights 2006, approximately 50,000 students are in paddled annually in Texas schools.

Truth is that schoolchildren of all ages are injured by school paddling, putting school districts of lawsuits and that several “School Paddling States” have “Teacher Immunity Laws” to protect school employees from criminal/civil action leaving families no legal redress.

All schoolchildren must be treated with human dignity and respect and deserve equal access to safe and healthy learning environments. The very same act, a person hitting another person or animal with a wooden board, if done in public, rather than within the walls of a tax payer funded school building, will result in the arrest and imprisonment of the paddle weilder for criminal assault, be they a Policeman, Lawmaker or U.S. Supreme Court Justice.

Get the Facts, search and read “A Violent Education” by Human Rights Watch and The ACLU for more information, then add your voice to defend our nation’s schoolchildren’s constitutional right not to be assualted by those paid our tax dollars to be entrusted with their care and education at UnlimitedJustice.com National Campaign to End School Paddling of Children.

Please invest in children’s rights organizations to improve living conditions for all. Although the United States has made progress in the last century by guaranteeing young people legal rights, some attitudes have remained stagnantly in favor of the conventional hierarchy. If America wants to remain the leader of the free world, all citizens should be protected and allowed to grow up in the absence of violence.

@ Earl

March 30th, 2011
2:37 pm

Couldn’t have said it better myself.

I remember the boys getting paddled in school and as adults we sit around and they will tell you that they deserved it and that they never felt disrespect for the teacher or principal administering the punishment, as they see now that the “punishment” that their children receive is non-existent.

gamom

March 30th, 2011
2:38 pm

drew – it is a problem because people are unaware they are signing away their rights as parents when giving permission. You as a parent must be the protector ofyour child, not giving away your rights to a potential abuser. THINK!

td

March 30th, 2011
2:40 pm

I have a better idea. Instead of spanking these precious unruly children lets spank their parents for not making them behave in the classroom. If some one want to present that as a bill and do away with spanking the children at the same time then I will be more than happy to support the measure.

gamom

March 30th, 2011
2:43 pm

It’s a sad day when educators – who are supposed to be leading our youth to success- and are supposed to role models – that any of you advocate for hitting children. There is a difference between discipline and punishment. Maybe you all need to go back to school and take some advanced child psychology classes. NONE of them purport that hitting children is a good thing at any measure. In fact they emphasize the opposite – that physically punishing children can be detremental, that some kids may become more aggressive. And to boot – let’s just ignore the fact that major medical, nursing, psychology, and even professional teacher organizations are demanding the laws be changed so no one can legally hit a child in a school. Go to the National Association of School Nurses website, or the national PTA. Come on!

Dr. Craig Spinks/ Augusta

March 30th, 2011
3:11 pm

I was lucky that neither the Sisters of Mercy nor the Marist Brothers had a no-corporal-punishment policy.

What's best for kids

March 30th, 2011
3:23 pm

I think that parents should be the ones to administer discipline. I will absolutely spank my kids if needed. No need for the school to do it. I want for them to really stew about the consequences of their actions; I assure you, the school’s punishment will pale in comparison to mine,

What's best for kids

March 30th, 2011
3:25 pm

Dr. Spinks,
I remember my father talking about Marist Boys’ School~ he said that he would rather talk about his experiences in Veitnam than to discuss the punishments he received at Marist.

Goes too far

March 30th, 2011
3:38 pm

When I was in high school, we thought the “licks” were far better than having to serve detention and everyone always chose that route. The paddling was over in seconds while detention was after school for an hour for five days. The detention hurt far worse and was more effective than paddling could ever be. Detention is a better deterrent in my opinion (whether or not corporal punishment is appropriate)..

Elizabeth

March 30th, 2011
3:38 pm

I would really like to believe that paddling ( used judiciously and with restraint) can “cause kids to become more agressive”. However, from my experience in school in the 50’s and 60’s and my experience with teaching from 1970 to now, I do not see that as as being true. Kids are ten thousasnd times more aggressive and more impervious to the the “discipline” ( or lack of) that we give them today than they ever were in earlier times. We knew that if got in trouble, we would be paddled, up until about the age of 13. It was not as effective with older kids but the EMBARRASSMENT was a deterrent.

Nothing is an effective deterrent for today’s kids. Would paddling help? I don’t know, but I am desperate enough to want to try it– to try anything that would make these kids realize that they are CHILDREN and do not have the power to defy adults, to be disrespectful and disruptive every minute of every day, and fear no consequences because they know there are none.

For those who decry “old fashioned” teaching methods– guess what? I use them and they still work best. And my students’ CRCT scores prove it. What we are doing today ( or NOT doing today) is not working. It is time to try something else– like old fashioned discipline that makes kids behave and therefore be ready to learn, not disrupt. It can’t get much worse. Why don’t we try it?

Archie@Arkham Asylum

March 30th, 2011
3:45 pm

During the first decade of the roller coaster ride that was my teaching career, I was assigned to a high school in South Georgia ( a.k.a. “Pine Tree Alley”). The school system there practiced corporal punishment and as far as I know, they still do. As I came to see it, corporal punishment may have had some effect on the Elementary School kids. However, you had to hope (pray, even) that somewhere, sometime, somehow, between pre-K and ninth grade, those kids developed a “moral compass” ( a sense of right and wrong). I witnessed many “boardings” at the high school and a lot of them were “repeaters.” The only result of these paddlings seemed to be that the principal had a very sore arm certain days of the week. ( I couldn’t help but notice the “large economy size” bottle of extra-strength Tylenol on his desk.) The kids (boys and girls) actually preferred to get paddled because it was all over with quickly and didn’t drag on for days like ISS. ( ISS was new at that time and actually had some “teeth” in it.) For corporal punishment to be effective for a student with no “moral compass,” corporal punishment would have to be delivered at a level where the possibility of serious injury is more likely than not. I can’t help but notice a lot of today’s teens obviously did not develop a “moral compass” during their younger years and are in effect, “sociopaths in the making.” Something needs to be done to restore order to restore order in the schools but short of the Army and/or Marine Corps taking them over and running them I don’t know what.

Ole Guy

March 30th, 2011
3:52 pm

OK, so everyone seems upset over the fact that kids are no sense of consequence…no FEAR, repeat FEAR…that errant behavior will lead to unpleasantry. Unfortunately, there will always be hardheads who don’t think very well; wo do no/will/not/cannoy reason. Historically, ever since man walked upon terra firma, that fear was introduced by way of corporal punishment. This methodology, unpleasant as it may be for ALL concerned, has been in existence for a long long time…and it seems to have worked. FEAR is the raw, uncut side of DISCIPLINE; without a health level of fear, discipline will not evolve.

Now would someone please explain just WHY, all of a sudden, we have a generation which is beyond the traditional means of maintaining control; of introducing the beginnings of DISCIPLINE? And let’s not hear some bs hogwash about inflicting psycic pain and confusion.

This is exactly why we see the beginnings of the downfall of civilization… generation(s) which knows not of consequence, discipline, self control, the appropriate behaviors in our civilization, and the raw FEAR that piss poor decisions WILL lead to no good. Go ahead, explain!

@elizabeth

March 30th, 2011
3:55 pm

You would never be allowed to lay a finger on my child. I am the parent, I dole out the discipline. I also am the one and only advocate and protector of my child from harm. All this 3rd party hitting – and those advocating that it is a good thing – I find odd, strange, and downright scarey. The number of Georgia kids getting punished this way is in the thousands. The data is readily available from the GA doe. Frustrated, angry, burnt out teachers need not have that kind of power. How many of you pro-hitters would take a wooden board to your pet? How many of you would likek to get hit by a superior for a not reaching a deadline. How many of you would hit your spouse for not complying with your wishes? probably none. Teachers that hit children are incompetent, plain and simple

Me

March 30th, 2011
4:01 pm

To those that oppose corporal punishment b/c it is inhumane, cruel, and psychologically damaging:

Please post a step by step plan of ACTION that would be appropriate and EFFECTIVE to deter a typical teenager from the destructive and disrespectful behavior that we hear about every single day.

And please don’t insult us with “the parents….” statement as we all know that the parents aren’t in the classroom or in the principals office where the behavior occurs.

Don’t make me call John Quinones…..
I’m very serious, What would YOU do with the repeat offender kids that we’re discussing here?

td

March 30th, 2011
4:03 pm

Ole Guy

March 30th, 2011
3:52 pm

Excellent comments. I have said all along that we should go out a get retired drill sergent’s and put them in charge of discipline in our middle and high schools.

Me

March 30th, 2011
4:05 pm

Just for the record, if my dog bit me, spit on me, called me ugly names and laughed in my face over his disrepectful act of peeing in the floor, I sure as h*ll would hit him back!

@ Me

March 30th, 2011
4:08 pm

At Me – why don’t you ask the states of Connecticut, New Jersey, Virginia how they do it. The answers are in your own profession. 30 states do it without hitting. And those educators and administrators that testified to that fact in front of the Rep McCarthy’s subcommittee – had excellent suggestions that worked in their school. Please look it up. The testimony is there for the taking. They are the professionals that testified to what works – and it wasn’t hitting or physical punishment in any way. GEESH. I am a parent and know this stuff – how come the educators don’t?

td

March 30th, 2011
4:08 pm

@elizabeth

March 30th, 2011
3:55 pm
You would never be allowed to lay a finger on my child. I am the parent, I dole out the discipline.

Great that makes you totally responsible for your child’s behavior in public (school setting). What should we do if your child does not behave? Maybe we should be allowed to paddle you for not making your child behave? How about a nice big fat fine? Saturday school?

There has to be a way to have discipline in the school. If not then your actions of not making your child behave effects my child’s learning and my neighbors child’s learning and that is not acceptable.

Tokyo Toto

March 30th, 2011
4:26 pm

Life can be cruel….
“As the new school year starts, local children will have to transfer to schools in their places of refuge. Everyone has lost everything — their home, their job, their school, their friends, their families. Who could stand this reality? I would beg you to share this reality with people inside and outside the company.”

http://blogs.wsj.com/japanrealtime/2011/03/28/letters-from-fukushima-tepco-worker-emails/

gamom

March 30th, 2011
4:33 pm

i am all for discipline!!! But not for hitting. I don’t know how I can be clearer than that. Discipline – to teach, from the word disciple. Of course the need is there for discipline, consequences and consistency. All of these things work without hitting.

ScienceTeacher671

March 30th, 2011
4:36 pm

When my youngest son was in kindergarten, the teacher had a particularly long set of consequences ending up with a spanking in the principal’s office. Said son particularly liked being “banished” to a different classroom where they did worksheets and coloring sheets, which was perhaps the 5th or 6th consequence on the disciplinary ladder. I told the teacher to make getting sent to the principal’s office for a spanking my child’s 2nd consequence rather than the 7th or 8th level. Bingo! Behavior problems ceased. He knew how to behave, but he had also very quickly figured out how to “play the system”. The teacher never did have to send him to the principal.

By the way, I didn’t spank him at home, other than a few “hand swats” when he was a toddler. Taking away privileges was much more effective at home.

Currently, for many students, we have too many loopholes and too few consequences that matter to them.

drew (former teacher)

March 30th, 2011
4:39 pm

@elizabeth says:

“How many of you pro-hitters would take a wooden board to your pet?”

I prefer to use a rolled-up newspaper for my pet…call me a traditionalist! But I’d use a board if I had to…one of the most important things I learned as a teacher is the importance of flexibility.

“How many of you would like to get hit by a superior for a not reaching a deadline.”?

Well, in all honesty, I probably wouldn’t like it, but I bet I’d meet my next deadline!

“How many of you would hit your spouse for not complying with your wishes?”

If I hit my spouse everytime she refused to comply with my wishes, without a doubt, one of us would be dead by now.

gamom

March 30th, 2011
4:41 pm

consequences are a good thing science teacher. Why do the pro-hitters – as you see here from the myriad of posts – think that hitting is going to get some point across to say a sixth grader, a seventh grader or 8th grader. I personally do a thing at home and I take away ALL electronics and friends.. basically shut them off from the free world plus give some extra chores. If a teacher is having a problem with my kid – they are to call me immediately, by the time I implement my consequences, they would have rather be smacked by a teacher

HS Math Teacher

March 30th, 2011
4:43 pm

I don’t have a problem with my Son getting his butt busted if he gets out of control, or disrespects his Teachers. He doesn’t get in trouble of this kind because he’s had his butt busted enough growing up, and he knew from an early age that if you want to dance, you’ve got to pay the fiddler.

We have way too many Fatherless kids, and unfortunately, many of them don’t know the boundaries of proper behavior. Also, we have brats and smartasses who have Fathers; however, they are disengaged, and have let the little piss-weeds talk back and smart-off to them. Now, us Teachers have to deal with these little sociopaths.

I agree with someone earlier who said that we should not spare the paddle from 6th grade on down. I’d say 8th grade on down.

Me

March 30th, 2011
4:45 pm

@Elizabeth/@ Me poster: You assumed I’m a teacher or in education? I’m not. I’m a RN with a 12 year old in Clayton Co Schools. I’ve never received a call from school regarding my son’s behavior and I’m betting that I never will. If I do, I would PREFER to punish him myself, but as each situation is unique I expect him to be disciplined as needed, based on the facts. This argument is much larger than who can and can not spank my child. It’s about hamstringing the professionals we entrust our kids education (AKA their FUTURE) to. If teachers were able to handle their problem kids as problems arise, we might not even be talking about corporal punishment at all. I’m going to make another huge leap and say I bet the states of Conn, NJ and VA haven’t handicapped their educators to the point that they are powerless.
But still, in the State (GA) and the state (unchecked chaos) that we are in, I’d like to know how YOU would keep order and provide a positive learning environment in a classroom with 4 or 5 little Johnny’s acting out at the same time?

Richard Lewis

March 30th, 2011
4:55 pm

I HAD A MAN TEACHER WHIN IWAS IN THE ..8.th GRADE THAT ONLY PADDLED GIRLDS NEVER BOYS WE COULD DO ENYTHING WE WANT TO AND NOT GET INTO TROBLE!!!!!!! NOT FAIR!!!!THE TEACHER WAS A BIG WIMP!!!! HE WAS AFRAID OF BOYS… FR5OM 5th ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ole Guy

March 30th, 2011
4:58 pm

Gamom, yours appears to be a world residing on the ideal plane, a good place to be in a utopian society where everyone is on the same sheet of music, sings songs of brotherhood and unity…and the skys are not cloudy all day. Good luck!

TD, it is gratifying to see that my “old school” thoughts are still alive and well…thanks for your comment.

Listen up, people…if you want to continue to pretend that the good fairy of protocol exists within us all, such as Gamom seems to feel…well and good. YOU will have the privilege of paying the price in terms of your kids growing into a world completely devoid of social structure, dictum or decorum. YOUR kids will become adults who feel no need to adhere to the rules of society and the social pillars which, until recent years, made our civilization the envy of the world. If YOU wish to continue rubbing your kids’ fannys, allowing them free reign to do whatever moves their desires, fine. YOU, I have little doubt, are completely devoid of the very same social discipline required for good order. When YOUR kids, and quite possibly, YOU, experience difficulties in terms of an inability to adapt to the current demands of this crazy world, simply because YOU never saw the need to embrace FEAR as a social survival tool…DO NOT expect help from that utopian society you seem to think exists.

@Me

March 30th, 2011
5:04 pm

You are aware of the National Association of School Nurses and that 30 states teach just fine with taking a wooden board to a child. Wooden Boards can injure – you being a nurse could probably understand that. If you took a wooden board to your child in say a store, you’d have the authorities after you. My kids haven’t had any behavior issues either – never had to hit them once. I use consistent consequences. I suggest that if a teacher doesn’t have the skills to handle 4 or 5 little johnnies in terms of classroom management, then they don’t deserve a paycheck funded by me. I am quite certain you don’t hit your patients when they forget to take their insulin.

@Me

March 30th, 2011
5:05 pm

oops – without taking a wooden board to a child. the NASN has a position statement on their website urging lawmakers to stop this nonsense

@@HS Math Teacher

March 30th, 2011
5:09 pm

OMGoodness what if said 12 or 13 yr old is pregnant and you hit the kid with a wooden board.
I would particularly like to hear from the Nurse – are these school officials going to check to see if a student is pregnant before they get struck? We all know that teen pregnancy is a problem and even some girls as young as 11 can become pregnant

gamom

March 30th, 2011
5:14 pm

To Me – what if your child or someone elses child has an unknown medical condition – say a bleeding disorder or a musculoskeletal disorder that is underlying – those kids don’t deserve to be hit with a wooden board.

Me

March 30th, 2011
5:28 pm

Utopian Moms can ‘what if’ all day long….what this is about is the freedom to discipline a child appropriately. APPROPRIATELY. I wouldn’t paddle an adult for not taking his.her insulin b/c they’re ADULTS, therefore they are the ones that pay the price if they misbehave. Do you really think a child is to be given adult privileges without consequences? Ever heard “the tail wagging the dog?”

I’m afraid you’ll feel the pain when your little Johnny’s get big (they’ve been adults seen childhood right?) and wind up on “disability” or TANF , have lots of babies and babies mama’s and live at home until you pass away and leave them the house. They’ll always be the victim, always be the one that was ‘wronged’, and therefore will always need their Utopian Moms to care for them and tell them it’s going to be all right.

The positive productive members of society aren’t the kids that were raised to believe that they could act any way they see fit b/c their mama’s told them they were special and never had their feelings hurt.

gamom

March 30th, 2011
5:34 pm

So you would disregard all the position statements of medical doctors organizations as well as professional organizations. You do know that if any child is injured at the hands of an educator and you’ve given them permission for this kind of punishment, you give up your rights as a parent. There is no legal redress. You still really didn’t answer the question, you believe children – and many children do have many medical problems – that they deserve to be hit with a wooden board. Really? This is not just about my kids? What if any child has been abused at home already, it’s alright with you that the people a child may trust is an educator – it’s alright then by your standard for the teacher to hit the already abused children. I assure you I already have an adult child and he is a productive member of society. Getting ready to graduate college – with honors.

gamom

March 30th, 2011
5:36 pm

And you as a nurse are alright for young girls – say the agee of 12 or 13 – old enough to possibly be pregnant – to get struck? You know what the teen pregnancy rate is in Georgia? I would suggest the school runs a pregnancy test before each time they paddle a kid. You are totally disregarding what the Academy of Pediatrics says and the the National Association of School Nurses and the AMA? And you’re a nurse….OK then.

fultonschoolsparent

March 30th, 2011
5:41 pm

So we can beat children because we’re bigger and have all the power. What do you think is going to happen when we’re old and they’re bigger and have all the power? Violence begets violence and that’s the message you are sending with paddling. Watch out – you’re getting older!

Dr. Craig Spinks/ Augusta

March 30th, 2011
5:42 pm

Am waiting for teachers and subs to post videos of the disrespectful and/or disruptive behaviors of those students for whom modeling, positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, response cost, extinguishment et al. have proven unsatisfactory over time in the elimination of their severe misbehaviors.

Some student misbehaviors are so incredible that they demand visual and auditory documentations of their existence.

gamom

March 30th, 2011
5:44 pm

Let’s just go through a list of common ailments children may have
Asthma
Autism
Obesity
Diabetes
Food Allergies
Cardiac Problems
Developmental Delays
OCD
ADHD
Pregnancy
Physical – old or healed from previous abuse at home
Cystic Fibrosis
Seizure Disorder
Muscular Skeletal deformities
Genetic disorders/Bleeding Disorders
Scoliosis (oh yes my daughter has this one – lay a finger on her backside – and the teacher would be in big trouble) No thanks to anyone but me, discovered the scoliosis.

This is just a really short list of the complicated scenarios a hitting teacher could encounter. People are incredibly foolish to think this is ok.

On the average in any given population of a school upwards of 20 to 30% of students have a medical problem.

gamom

March 30th, 2011
5:52 pm

Also, just a small fact that might have escaped your logic. I think the latest stats for Autism now is 1 in 110 kids have a form of Autism. And the number is escalating. This is now considered nearly epidemic. The chances for teachers to encounter autistic spectrum children in their regular classroom (not self-contained) has increased exponentially over a few years. And the data shows that children with disabilities in GEORGIA are being beaten disproportionately MORE OFTEN THAN OTHER SUBGROUPS. Are you ok with that too?

A Conservative Voice

March 30th, 2011
5:57 pm

Great story, Earl, and welcome back……I remember Roosevelt High School very well…..beautiful school…..what’s it being used for now? a jail?

HS Math Teacher

March 30th, 2011
6:02 pm

To the poster who is concerned about pregnant students getting paddled (responding to my original post), I said that I’m in favor of using the paddle from the 8th grade downward. I don’t think there would be many girls in these grades who would fit in that category. If I was an administrator, I would relegate the paddling of girls to a female administrator.

I don’t think paddling is the panacea for all ills we are facing. However, I do believe that paddling of young errant kids not only provides heat for the seat, but also induces a “shock” to their senses, and brings a little bit of shame on them. I was whipped at home, and paddled many times up until high school, and I believe it kept me straight. Growing up, I knew who the boss was.

Patricia - 34 year Veteran

March 30th, 2011
6:04 pm

I believe corporal punishment has its place in the scheme of things. I am not sure how effective it would be in a high school setting. I remember the last time I paddled a child which was in the early 80s. Two sixth grade boys thought it was just the funniest thing in the world to pick up a smaller boy in their grade level and stuff him into one of the large trash cans in the boys room keeping him from getting out. I heard him yelling and zoomed right into that room to be greeted with that unbelivable site. Both of them got three whacks from me with the principal’s paddle in her office as well as a good strong talking to. I paddled less than ten kids during my first five years of teaching. Everyone of them learned not to repeat their disruptive or bullying behavior anywhere I could be found. Did I beat them? NO! Did it hurt? Sure! Did it embarrass them. I think it might have and not one parent complained.

Patricia - 34 year Veteran

March 30th, 2011
6:05 pm

Ok, Ok, “sight” not “site”…

gamom

March 30th, 2011
6:06 pm

@HS math teacher – years ago, i worked on a maternity ward – you’d be surprised how young the girls are that are pregnant. And you’d be surprised how many of them there are. the fact is you simply DON’T know who is and who is not pregnant. or who is and is not having female issues… such as endometriosis. Look that one up. You have any idea the pain involved with that condition???

gamom

March 30th, 2011
6:15 pm

such hypocrisy – what are you teaching girls when you strike them? What are you educators teaching any child by hitting? REally? Yeah yeah yeah- the redundancy of the answers is entirely predictable – This is not the 80’s. I sure hoped we’d know better in 2011. Educators that hit kids in 2011 are incompetent, because we know better now, mountains of research says its bad – especially My Golly from a third party. Adults are supposed to lead by example.

Wondering

March 30th, 2011
6:19 pm

PRINCIPAL: Mrs. Smith, this is Joe Jones, principal of Main Street (Elementary/Middle/High) School. Your son/daughter was disruptive and rude in Mr/Ms Brown’s class. You need to come pick him/her up as soon as possible.
MRS. SMITH: But I’m at work.
PRINCIPAL: We will hold him/her for 45 minutes. After that time, he/she will be in the custody of juvenile authorities, and you may pick him up (at a designated location).

Wondering…How many times would it take?

How many times would it take before Johnny/Suzie learned how to behave?

gamom

March 30th, 2011
6:24 pm

Folks – home school and advocate for school choice – it’s hopeless

Me

March 30th, 2011
7:02 pm

gamom…you have spent much time and energy listing all possible scenarios for what could go wrong with a child in and out of school. What you failed to take note of was the word APPROPRIATE. I don’t believe I’ve stated anywhere on this blog that spanking a high school student, or middle school for that matter, is appropriate. Discipline starts young and I’ve heard more than once that the biggest influence on a child’s future behavior is the primary school experience.

At some point you have to come out of the “what if” bubble and experience the real world. Yes there are many health issues that children face, but do you teach them starting in kindergarten that any medical issue present means that they don’t have to worry about learning right or wrong? Or that the rules don’t apply to them?

I’m very curious what kind of experience you’ve had that makes you so wholeheartedly submit to anything that’s purported in any journal or by any organization. They’re the professionals, so they know what’s best? Really? Does the AAP raise your children for you? You DO know that there is MUCH MUCH political influence involved in most position statements right? I’ve worked with enough physicians to know, FOR A FACT, that more than a few don’t truly believe in the “accepted” protocols for treatment of common illness/diseases.

And last, but not least, if you have worked in a “maternity ward” as a nurse, for any length of time, I wouldn’t have to school you on the realities of life. But here it is anyway: Life is hard. If you’re not harder, life wins and you lose.

gamom

March 30th, 2011
7:44 pm

And I never said NO to discipline. You have made much assumptions about me and the way I parent. I am speaking from a personal experience that this beating of children absolutely does not work. I remember the nightmare of what I would call school – watching the same kids get beat over and over again in primary school. I have no idea whatever happened to them – but they were not helped and some were definitly troubled after the ’school’ got hold of them. You want to parent with an iron fist – that’s just fine, go ahead – whatever works for you. But I will tell you both from a personal and professional standpoint, you can’t have teachers beating on children whatsoever. It’s unconstitutional, because the parent has no legal redress IF an injury does occur. And being an RN – you are I am sure a mandated reporter of abuse, as are teachers. Teachers will not report abuse even IF a paddling goes overboard, because it’s a matter of policy that they are to keep their mouth shut. I suggest you readd a couple of reports, studies from a wide range of sources that are peer reviewed not only by md’s and nurses, but by attorneys as well. It is unconstitutional. The fact remains that in Georgia – your beloved state – they are beating kids in middle and high school with wooden boards. It’s been widely reported in the AJC, Gainesville Times, Augusta Chronicle and countless other Georgia publications. At what age does it stop, you going to only allow elementary kids to get beaten – by whom? How often, for what infractions pray tell. A friend of mine’s child was beaten for failing a test. Come on now? Where does the line get drawn between discipline and abuse? I for one would not leave it up to burnt out teachers or nurses for that matter.

sloboffthestreet

March 30th, 2011
8:29 pm

Must go long with that dang found nu teknolg. What a bunch of redneck hillbillies!

Tech School Instructor

March 30th, 2011
9:26 pm

The new techican college quarter started five days ago. Today, I dropped 22 students who failed to follow the rules. I will drop four more students tomorrow for failure to comply. Somehow these students arrive in post-secondary ADULT school with no clue about how to follow rules. Personally, I think intelligence isn’t the problem. Kids need home training. That’s the job of parents. Schools are here to educate. K-12 HAS to enforce rules. Upper education and the work force just kicks them out if the can’t comply to rules. Kids must learn self-discipline, and a good, hard paddling helped me see the light in my youth.

Tech School Instructor

March 30th, 2011
9:27 pm

“Technical College”

South Georgia Teacher

March 30th, 2011
9:32 pm

gamom, children in my school are seldom paddled over and over. Paddling is a consequence that occurs once or twice before the next level of consequence occurs; usually suspension. Paddling is a step to avoid sending the student home. Parents must provide signed permission for corporal punishment. Most students who reach the level of consequences of corporal punishment straighten up. They also get to stay at school. Suspension is a lose-all situation for the school and for the students. As I said, it works for us.

Me

March 30th, 2011
9:35 pm

So what I’m hearing you say ist: You had a traumatic experience as a child, You feel strongly against corporal punishment, you don’t care for my “beloved” Georgia, and just as you will never see things from my perspective, I won’t see the world through yours. You believe that ALL corporal punishment is bad in every way, shape and form. I believe it has it’s place in the big picture that is discipline. Did I leave anything out? And please, remember to use your ” I feel ” statements so as to not alienate others. Make good choices and use your indoor voice. Later we’ll discuss the benefits and drawbacks of excessive use of melodrama to make a point.

Interesting Reality

March 30th, 2011
9:40 pm

@ Wondering – LOVE IT!!!

Tokyo Toto: Playin' the harp

March 30th, 2011
9:42 pm

Hmmm. Something special about 10km…..

“The earthquake occurred at a depth of 10 km and the United States Geological Survey recorded a series of aftershocks, ten of them above magnitude 5, including two measuring 5.9 and 5.5.”
http://www.sciencebase.com/2010-haiti-earthquake.html

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1406579/pg1
http://modernsurvivalblog.com/earthquakes/odd-10-km-depth-aftershocks-of-7-4-earthquake-japan/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pch4QtJFz24&feature=related

Independent

March 30th, 2011
9:44 pm

Wondering – you have a great idea there. It probably would work great. But it probably can’t be implemented due to some law that says you can’t call the juvenile authorities for just being disruptive – so what is the next step?

Dr. John Trotter

March 30th, 2011
9:52 pm

@ APS teacher: No, “Georgia Coach” didn’t lose any hearing. He is still teaching in DeKalb. In fact, he is very talented, and was once a STAR Teacher himself. He’s had this feud with me and MACE for a long time. For years, he adored MACE and could not heap enough accolades upon MACE. But, I would not let him pimp MACE for his personal gain. He’s spoiled. An only child. Likes to get his way. Throws temper tantrums. I guess I am supposed to be afraid of this…or of his endless anonymous criticisms of MACE…ad infinitum. Whatever he says about MACE, in a weird way I sort of appreciate the attention shown because it seems to help us. People just keep coming.

As I said earlier today, you can’t hide success. People hear about us and how hard we work for teachers, and they respond. I have had teachers actually tell me that when they first heard about MACE and saw our website, tears actually rolled down their cheeks. They realized that they were no longer alone, that there was some group which actually feels their pain (Clintonesque, eh?) and can identify with what they are going through. At MACE, we are passionate about protecting and empowering classroom educators…one member at a time. This week alone, I have had two teachers (one in DeKalb and a lady from Atlanta tonight) tell me that when their principals found out that they were now members of MACE that they started treating them much differently…nicer and more professionally. It is stories like theirs which reverberate throughout the teaching community. As I was leaving the office tonight, I met another teaching in our waiting room (she had an appointment with Mr. Norreese Haynes). I asked her where she taught. She told me, and I remembered that I had recently written a letter for a gentleman at her DeKalb high school. She immediately told me that it was this gentleman and another MACE member at her school who referred her to MACE. MACE gets most of its members from the recommendation of satisfied and happy members.

Now about ole “Georgia Coach”: He loves to operate anonymously on this blog. Great. No one has to use his or her real name. (I have cousins like Earl of Ft. Liquordale who occasionally show up on this blog.) It is so easy to buy online a cheap program which will hide your IP address and give you thousands of options each time you blog. (Just Google it.) I purchased one. I think the price is $39.95 for two years. I don’t use it, but I have it. I could blog on here with a Libyan or Swiss or Alabama IP address. But, I just use my real name. To me, it’s more fun using my real name. Plus, I am just vain enough that I want you to know who wrote the marvelous gems. Ha!

http://www.theteachersadvocate.com

Jessica

March 30th, 2011
9:57 pm

While I’m not opposed to corporal punishment in principle, I don’t think it’s appropriate in public schools. I have absolutely no faith that teachers/administrators would make good decisions about when and how to paddle children. I’m sure there are some who would use this option appropriately, but previous discussions on this blog are evidence enough that some educators have very poor judgment.

gamom

March 30th, 2011
10:06 pm

I will maintain that educators who resort to hitting children – are using the excuse from the parent with that signed form – after all, you educators are supposed to be the educated ones – i still say educators that do this are incompetent. One person’s smack is another person’s abuse. There is just wrong here at every level. South Georgia teacher – there are no peer reviewed studies for your side.. If there is one – peer reviewed – please share it.

gamom

March 30th, 2011
10:09 pm

If i have to relocate to South Ga teachers district for any reason – I will be sure to home school – even though I pay into the taxes I should be able to send my kids to any district without them encountering this whatsoever. What do you say to the parents who don’t want their kid sent to this type of environment. Why should my kids learn how to snicker at their peers for getting hit – I see that as a form of bullying. With all the attention on bullying lately, isn’t adults hitting children with wooden boards – just the same as bullying. Your bigger, you have a weapon and you’re hitting a child. What’s the logic in that. Incidentally, you can’t bring your tool of the trade …aka… paddle into any state capitol – it’s considered a weapon

Elizabeth

March 30th, 2011
10:13 pm

Dr. Spinks: I would post such videos if I were legally allowed to– but I am not.

long time educator

March 30th, 2011
10:33 pm

When I went to school back in the sixties, there were very few discipline problems. Kids respected teachers, parents supported the school and kids got paddled at school and at home. I hear all the arguments against paddling and, in my opinion, the main one is the potential of lawsuits, but the biggest problem in education today is the lack of respect and discipline. Maybe the key element in the sixties was not paddling but parent respect and support of the school. Whatever it was, it worked. What is happening today is not working. TEACHERS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM, DISRUPTIVE, DISRESPECTFUL STUDENTS ARE. Legislate something for that.

gamom

March 30th, 2011
11:12 pm

long time educator – i wish i had a nickel for every post lamenting the supposed wretched behavior by kids – Hitting is not the answer, it leaves too much latitude for abusers who may even be attracted to working in school systems that use corporal punishment. If the classroom management style isn’t working, then do something about it. Change it, call the parents in – have a conference, Why is it that educators can’t figure this out, but can easily whine all the time. There is so much literature on how to manage classrooms it isn’t funny. All I see is excuses on these blogs.

Theresa Edwards

March 30th, 2011
11:29 pm

Maureen I really pat you on the back because you willingly stand up to the bullies and some of the most hard core “you can’t tell me nuthin crowd”.
For the record the total of children starting as young as “4″ being struck with a wooden board here in the United States as of this years stats is 250,000. With over 20,000 of these very same CHILDREN requiring treatment from medical personnel, for some “setting them up for lawsuits” simple things such as hematomas, ruptured spincters, massive bruising, uncontrolled vaginal bleeding, (because the young female was struck while on her cycle and thus tearing the lining from the inside of the uterus). These are just some of the medical circumstances that are a direct result of the child being struck with a wooden board. Now, it is basic common sense that Not one of us learns through physical pain. If, you or I screw up at work would you willingly allow your supervisor to strike you with a wooden board or would you yell assualt and battery? Children must be taught that violence is not the way to solve problems and this barbaric practice teaches just this. We are complaining about the level of violence in our schools and if you look at the rate of beatings that are taking place in the 19 states that still allow this. The stats of school beatings and the level of violence from those students have risen at the same rate. The states that allow beatings to continue have the lowest graduation rate and highest drop out rates than the states that have Banned this practice. Also states that have banned this practice have Higher acheivement rates, higher tests scores, and a lower teen suicide rate.
We tell the world that we are an educated country yet we are the ONLY country that still allows this barbaric practice, even Somalia recently banned this in the limited schools that they have. How can we say that we are an educated country yet still harm the weakest of our society??

Will

March 30th, 2011
11:49 pm

I grew up in the early seventies. I had my ass paddled in school when I screwed up. Not beaten but paddled. It taught me a lesson….. three times….. Joined the military where I served PROUDLY. Served in Desert Storm Part One In 1991. Cavalry Scout on the front lines during Desert Storm One and the Cold War.from 76 to 79.where .my life expentency if the sh** ever hit the fan was eleven minitutes, Ha, we loved it. The military taught me responsibility over and above what my parents and school instilled in me. I now teach at a technical college here in Georgia. Have been for the last twenty years. I posted a comment above about dropping twenty plus students the first few days. I have a 98 percent placement ratio for my graduating students because I DO NOT PUT UP WITH ANY BULL CRAP. New students know what the rules are and the responsible ones do it, The lesser students (bad attitudes, child support problems, minor criminal records} generaly step up to the plate and succeed. I work with really great students who want to shine with great attitudes etc.. and have a fantastic record. I find that if I kick them in the a**, figuratively, they come around. I tell them in my orientation they are in ADULT SCHOOL and they will be expected to learn skills that will take them to better lifestyles and jobs. I have a vested interest in these students because when I retire, these folks will be running the world, I have not given up, no, never giving up on the good ones. I have sooooo many success stories from supposed losers from the high schools.
I also tell them its OK to DROP OUT OF SCHOOL,,,,,,yeah it’s cool and good for you. Because lots of business need scut level sweepers to clean the toilets, grounds, parks, BATHROOMS , TOILETS AND SINKS, sweep the floors, pick up the vomit from the various venues what ever the hell goes on in there.WHEN YOU DROP OUTOF SCHOOL……………whooooooooooo, happy day. This… I tell them is your LIFE……untill you get it together.and man up and get together with a better education Am I Wrong????????????? Am I being too politicly correct????????
Nawwwwwwwww I think not

k teacher

March 30th, 2011
11:59 pm

Corporal punishment and prayer have been mostly taken out of the schools. Look at the mess we have. Yet everybody wants to compare us to nations that allow said punishment or worse.

SALLYB

March 31st, 2011
12:05 am

@ Wondering@6:19…Perfect solution!!!! I am wondering myself why there hasn’t been more response by our posters to that 6:19 post.
Believe it or not, your suggestion of calling the parent to pick up a misbehaving child, setting a time limit, and if the parent doesn’t show up he/she must pick up the student at Juvenile facility has been offered by teachers and even some administrators to the DCSS.

Absolutely blown off as if the group offering the suggestion were made up of cretins!!!!

Everybody talks about the primary problem in today’s classroom being disrespect, disgusting behavior, and disappointing performance.Yet, no one is willing to try something that actually might work!

High School SS Teacher

March 31st, 2011
1:08 am

I agree with Wondering and long time teacher. If parents refuse to handle kids who act up, schools should have the power to discipline. I think only 20% of kids would qualify for corporal punishment, but over time, the threat of pain would decrease that number. The stories about Roosevelt High show that kids know when enough is enough. Many dont know that today.
ISS today is an absolute joke. Kids go out there and text and sleep all day. Some kids go for a class period when they dont like a certain teacher. Then they come back to class and say, ” I cant take the test, I was in ISS.” I respond, “I sent work for you and you didnt complete any of it or try and come to tutorial after school.” Kids know how to work the system and they need to be held more accountable for THEIR own actions. Unless you address the problem at the source, it wont ever be resolved.

Dr. Craig Spinks/ Augusta

March 31st, 2011
4:25 am

Elizabeth,

How about providing such videos to a trusted media person for dissemination?

Elizabeth

March 31st, 2011
5:29 am

gamom: “Call a parent. Have a conference”. Do you thnk we don’t do this-or try to? These kids are out of congtrol because the parents have no control. I have no doubt that you control your child. Do you know how many parents do not? If you can get them on the phone– if you can get them to the school– and these are big if’s– they respond either that they they can’t control the child or promise to do something. Nothing changes. Can you and the other disbelievers give teachers some credit? What else can we do? Our school discipline plan has 4 steps: 1. silent lunch ( this is the real joke– it is not silent when surrounded by other talking kids. And before you say it– there is is no place to isolate them. 2. Call home. 3. Parent conference. 4. Office referral. If you refer too many, the administrators stop listening to you and you are told to “improve your class control”. Those are basically the only things we can do. Detention in middle school is virtually impossible because the kids do not drive and parents can’t or wson’t transport them there. These steps only work with kids who are controlled at home. They do NOT work with chronic disruptors. Open your eyes. Or better still, obsrve in a classroom for a week. You will be ready to paddle them too.

Dr. Spinks: I cannot video my students without getting a signed release from every parent and withhout having a “reason” to tape. I can’t just set up cameras in my classroom and run them. Even if I could, I am not alloweed to use them except in a “teaching situation”. I would lose my job in a heartbeat if I releaSsed them to “a trusted news person”.

Teachers are powerless. When will the public understand this? And until this changes and the balance of power shifts, NOTHING will change in education. That is why I just joined MACE.

drew (former teacher)

March 31st, 2011
6:28 am

Wondering:
Great idea, but unfortunately it’s completely unrealistic in this age of coddling. The politically correct crowd would frown upon that kind of decisive and appropriate action. In other words, you can’t hand these little darlings over to the justice system…that would be like a “child left behind”.

gamom: take a deep breath and repeat after me…”it’s only a blog…it’s only a blog…”. And BTW, if you move to south Georgia you need not homeschool…just don’t provide the school with permission to use corporal punishment on your child. Now wasn’t that simple!

And you can spout off all you want about how corporal punishment doesn’t work, but the fact is, with some students, and in some situations, it DOES work. Or are you going to tell me that corporal punishment is NEVER, EVER useful?

1 for spanking

March 31st, 2011
6:43 am

gamom is off in hippie la-la land. I’m glad to see adults on here who advocate a butt swatting.

Jordan Kohanim

March 31st, 2011
7:27 am

I cannot imagine a scenario in which a governing body should ever have the right to strike a child. It is a right to be exercised by parents/guardians only.

I don’t think I could work for a system that condoned such behavior. As far as I know, Fulton (wisely) does not use corporal punishment.

Gunluvr

March 31st, 2011
7:40 am

Corporal punishment works!! And it should be used more often than it is. The problem with it is how it’s applied and by whom that makes it ineffective. GA law authorizes it but the schools systems don’t use it because of lawsuit fears. Civil immunity should be extended to the GA school systems and may be but a lot of cases are filed in the federal courts; so immunity on a federal level is needed.

Dr NO

March 31st, 2011
7:40 am

td

March 30th, 2011
2:40 pm

Spank the Parent…Absolutely Great Idea!!! As some of them behave worse than their precious little innocent darlings.

Philosopher

March 31st, 2011
7:56 am

Insanity reigns! Spanking is about nothing but power and control. It’s so damn easy! It makes the punisher feel GOOD!! It makes them feel POWERFUL! “There! I showed YOU who is in control, now didn’t I?? I don’t care one whit if I also taught you to handle with violence people who don’t bend to your will…that’s your problem and if you turn around and hit another kid because that’s what I just taught you…I’ll beat you again!”
Children are not animals- Stop the lazy, ignorant practice of spanking and think about what the child needs to learn. EDUCATE YOURSELVES! There are other ways to discipline- they take hard work and imagination but you can, as so many of us have done, raise good, kind, responsible citizens who do not strike others in order to get what they want!

Tokyo Toto: Playin' the harp

March 31st, 2011
8:07 am

The top public school in the nation….
Notice that they use traditional Alg. 1/Geometry,/Alg.2 math sequence. In 2009, 62 seniors were accepted at Carnegie Mellon, the #1 school for computer science, as well as strong engineering and robotics programs. The U.S. Defense department (and DARPA) recruits heavily from this school. Interestingly, it is private (about $52,000/yr). Thomas Jefferson is run as a free-standing magnet school; students must apply and be accepted. The school is tax supported, but receives hefty grants/support from large corporations.

Tokyo Toto: Playin' the harp

March 31st, 2011
8:08 am

OOPS!
Here’s the link to Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology
http://www.tjhsst.edu/curriculum/dss/docs/tjprofile_2010.pdf

Philosopher

March 31st, 2011
8:13 am

@drew (former teacher) No, hitting children is neither acceptable nor necessary. Period. I have raised 3 respectful, well-behaved , responsible, and KIND children whom I have nevr hit. I realize there are some really lazy parents out there- the ones who abdicate parenting altogether, and those who take the easy way and samck their kids so they don’t have to think about discipline. And I know that it makes things tough for the poor teachers who have to deal with them. But adults who grow human beings (also known as parents) are RESPONSIBLE for them. I say stop coddling parents and remove children from public schools who are intractibly disobedient. They are the PARENTS’ problem! Teachers have no business deciding who needs a spanking, or how hard or how many times they should be smacked…clearly there are a lot of you out there on the edge itching to spank a kid. It needs to stop!

Philosopher

March 31st, 2011
8:16 am

Sorry for the typos- I need that second cup of coffee-badly!

ScienceTeacher671

March 31st, 2011
8:28 am

Philosopher, I’m a bit worried that you think spanking is FUN.

IMO, no form of discipline is FUN, but raising a child properly makes some form (or forms) necessary. Having raised 3 children, you probably have noticed that a sharp word works for some children, and more drastic measures are needed for others, but frequently different children require different forms of punishment.

ScienceTeacher671

March 31st, 2011
8:29 am

When we were kids, “time out” in our bedrooms was torture for my little brother, who loved to run & play outside. I didn’t care – as long as I had a book in there and wouldn’t be bothered, I could stay there all day!

Lynx

March 31st, 2011
9:11 am

Would you go to a doctor who had no idea what was wrong with you, but suggested that you just take the medicine, not knowing whether it would help you or hurt you? Beating a kid *might* address the symptoms, but rarely *solves* the problem. Sometimes kids read the physical punishment as attention from an adult that is better than being ignored. Lack of discipline means a kid isn’t being taught self-control, and so loses self-respect. It is NOT the beating that “straightens out” the kid, it is the feeling that some adult is paying attention and demanding proper behavior. There are lots of ways to get to this solution without the fast and thoughtless approach of physical punishment.

In my high school and elementary schools, spanking was the norm. We had that Assistant Principal, big and mean as Bull Connor, with the same choice others have talked about on this blog – detention or “licks” (hmm, now sounds kind of sado-sexual, huh?). One of the girls he was preparing to wale away on sucker punched him and he beat the “H” out of her. It certainly reinforced what dear old daddy was doing to her at home every night with his belt when he was drunk – she used to come to school with black eyes and bruises, but a smile on her face for what she gave Pop in return. She never went to jail, but she sure learned to defend herself against the abusive men in her life, even married one out of habit.

Philosopher, you are correct. Hitting kids is lazy. It might have been the easiest way to stop a kid from repeatedly putting himself in a life and death situation or for endangering the family’s survival – after all, mama mammals are pretty harsh with their youngsters – especially when you have 10 youngsters to deal with like my grandmothers had. But when you have one kid “acting out” beating on them will AT BEST alter the behavior that you can see. My father liberally spanked us kids and we didn’t change our behavior, only hid it better and became sneaky little liars.

Catlady, defend your point about lack of corporal punishment = jail with published statistics, not your anecdotes. I think what you are seeing is that if there is NO discipline at home, kids can go very wrong.

gamom

March 31st, 2011
9:15 am

Abusers are attracted to schools that paddle – it is about power and control. Let me say that again – abusers are attracted to schools that paddle. Not only are they incompetent but some of the may be sadists – you never know. Why would anyone trust a school official to dole out this punishment – you never ever would know the true motivations of a hitter

Philosopher

March 31st, 2011
9:16 am

Different children require different strategies for learning and discipline- absolutely correct! And none of those includes hitting the child. I never said spanking is fun (though clearly for some it is), but adults who spank their kids do so because they can and want to… because they are frustrated and fed up with the child’s behavior and it is easy, gives immediate gratification (results seen right away)and is satisfying…whether they will admit to it, or not.

South Georgia Teacher

March 31st, 2011
11:07 am

Schools get stuck with paddling when all the other options are taken away. I remember when we could just call parents to come get their misbehaving children. If the parents wouldn’t come, the police would come get them and charge the parents $50 to pick them up. The students weren’t charged with anything, but picking children up at the police station sure got everyone’s attention! Now the schools are accountable for student attendance, so we try not to send them home. Law Enforcement can no longer intervene unless they charge the children with a crime. Fellow bloggers, what do you think is appropriate punishment for 6-8 grade students who say “F-You” to teachers, raise cain in class, disrupt the learning of others, throw tantrums, destroy the property, skip class, smoke in the bathroom, cuss out other students, etc.?

Katie S.

March 31st, 2011
11:17 am

five years ago, I went to a school in texas in which the elementary school consisted of k-6, having moved there from henry county, I found the idea of 6th grade in elementary school a ridiculous practice, but I digress. In gym class, they gave suicides for punishment for everything, if you didn’t get changed in 3 minutes, you got 5 suicides, my mother found offense with the term for them and forbade me to do them, I was sent to the principal’s office and told I could either go into the library and write out the books for the rest of the period, or take 2 “swatches” as they called them, I chose to take them and go back to class, being a sixth grader I don’t think its appropriate to make them choose their punishment. I never told my parents, and a month later, the school got around to calling my parents to tell them, they went to the school and raised hell, how the school had no right to touch me, much less without calling the parents first, they didn’t punish me at all. I found great satisfaction in the ordeal, that the administration had no control over me any longer, it was quite liberating. I think the practice of corporal punishment is demeaning, archaic, and it is indeed child abuse, had my parents hit me with a wooden paddle, I would have been put into a foster home.

Philosopher

March 31st, 2011
11:31 am

Behavior rules have been VERY clearly articulated in all the schools my children have attended. While I have not even been called at home with behavior issues, I have been very aware that disruptive children were removed from the classroom, suspended, placed in alternative schools, and expelled. Teachers shouldn’t be meting out corporal punishment. If you follow the disciplinary plan, the kid will be removed before you get a chance to whack on him/her. If your discipline plan fails to allow removal of a disruptive, disrepectful, threatening child…DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! Most of the kids you see acting out at school are NOT the kids who are appropriately disciplined at home and are happy, well-adjusted kids…they are abused, neglected, and never shown or taught respect for themselves or others…so you beat them and teach them to beat others and round and round and round we go!

Lynx

March 31st, 2011
11:55 am

The only thing missing from spanking proponents’ post is the request, “Please sir may I have another?” because, according to you folks, spanking is so good for “some” kids that those kids and their parents should actually be asking for physical punishment. In my junior high school, the kids in shop class had to make the paddles for the principal’s office – 2 inches thick, shaped like a cutting board with a handle, and with holes drilled through the surface so that they would swing faster and hurt more. All perfectly normal?

Jack

March 31st, 2011
11:58 am

@ Katie S. – I’m not sure I get the point you were trying to make. It seemed to me that you were glad to find out that the administrators had no control over your behavior, thus you could pretty much do whatever you wanted to do, consequences be damned. If that’s the case … would you want your children doing the same thing in school? And if it isn’t the case, forgive my misunderstanding.

David Granger

March 31st, 2011
12:02 pm

Ms. Downey, when I was a kid…paddling was the ONLY kind of punishment that worked with me, either at school or at home. If my teachers or principal or parents used any other method…writing lines, detention, extra work, staying in at recess, with-holding privileges, preventing me from other activities…I figured that I had GOTTEN AWAY with it.

SALLYB

March 31st, 2011
12:19 pm

Dr.No@7:40 : SPANK THE PARENT !
WONDERING’S point of 6:19 yesterday would be the equivalent of a parent spanking and a little more acceptable. Bet those kids would shape right up if the parent had to leave work and/or PAY when they were disruptive.

South Ga Teacher mentioned that that won”t work because police have to charge the child or cannot take them in.
That policy could be easily changed.
Actually, the local police pick up students that they see skipping school and bring them to school in many places in GA, and I’ll bet other places, too.

If anyone is really interested in fixing the edu. discipline problems…Partnering with Juvenile authorities/law enforcement
…. and consistantly following through without exception will do it.

Batgirl

March 31st, 2011
1:02 pm

Re Wondering’s 6:19 post from yesterday, I would suggest that instead of taking the child to a detention center, he/she should be taken to the parent’s workplace, preferably with lights flashing and sirens blaring.

South Georgia Teacher

March 31st, 2011
1:20 pm

Bat Girl, we used to drop kids off at their parents’ workplace, hang-out, whatever. We had to stop because attendance became our secondary indicator for AYP (Annual Measurable Progress).

Many rural counties lost their alternative schools due to budget cuts.

Philosopher

March 31st, 2011
1:21 pm

@ Batgirl: Love it!!

Philosopher

March 31st, 2011
1:27 pm

Logic here, you keep disruptive, disrepectful kids at school so your attendance numbers look good??? Most of those kids are attendance problems, anyway. And a whole schools full of teachers let this go on to make NUMBERS look good?! Something is screwy in Denmark…and if it is true…why do you let it happen?? Stand up and say “Hell, no!” Show some respect for yourselves. Solid support from teachers stopped a governor from being elected…try again.

gamom

March 31st, 2011
1:57 pm

South Georgia Teacher – I am not trying to be rude here but want to know – where does your county buy paddles to hit kids? Or do you guys make them in shop or something? Can’t you find some other way rather than hitting. And you stated that it works at your school – you have any data to support that assertion? I will tell you that Georgia is one of the poorest ranked states in terms of child welfare. If you have an absentee parent and the child is home watching and playing violent video games, perhaps has to live with a drug or alcohol addicted parent – how do you suppose your method of paddling is going to help the situation. You pretty much giving the green light to the parents to go ahead and hit at home and you hit at school, dontchya? That’s the way I see it. In fact studies support that as well. As a child gets older, it takes more spanks, with much more force to get any kind of point across (although it will backfire) (yes indeed multiple types of studies conclude this) – and someone also said the kids choose this kind of punishment – OF COURSE THEY DO. They’d rather get something overwith quick and they are less likely to tell their parents anything. ..If they come from an already abusive or neglectful parents – what child wants to spill the beans to the parent?. therefore you are contributing to the delinquency of a minor if you don’t involve the parent or you just skip over that part. Where do schools in Georgia get these paddles anyway? ARe my tax dollars supplying you with weapons? Because you can’t take a paddle into any courthouse, other public buildings and not even state capitols

gamom

March 31st, 2011
2:10 pm

Here’s a story where according to it the mother expressly told them in writing NOT to paddle:
http://www.kltv.com/Global/story.asp?S=14352089

You can’t tell me this doesn’t go on in Georgia

gamom

March 31st, 2011
2:16 pm

To south GA teacher – do you have any sort of pbis program or bully prevention program school wide? Seriously, listen to yourself – you keep giving excuses to hit children. I think class size also impacts behavior. Some kids just can’t handle all the stimuli as well as the teachers.

Philosopher

March 31st, 2011
2:42 pm

If you view children as animals to be trained, spanking could make some sort of sense, I suppose. But if you view children as intelligent human beings placed in your care to be raised to thinking, responsible, kind, considerate, and respectful citizens, spanking is completely counter-productive. Spanking merely results in fear that masquerades as respect. If you’re content with that…

Cobb History Teacher

March 31st, 2011
2:54 pm

@gamom

I agree with your stance on corporal punishment in school, however I disagree with you stance on the behavior of many children. Personally my child behaves differently with me than when he is with his peers. Just because Johnny or jenny behave at home doesn’t mean they will when they are with their peers.
Have you considered going into the classroom and practicing what you preach? For every nickel you have for post lamenting the supposed wretched behavior by kids I have two nickels for posts by people who don’t teach or work in the system but think they know how to teach and manage students.
I strongly suggest that those who are critical of the system join us and improve things rather than cast stones. It’s easy to give advice when you don’t have to follow / practice it.

Top School---John Sam, Jr.

March 31st, 2011
3:01 pm

Yes…those children in the Southside APS schools are treated much differently than those on the Northside of Atlanta.

Transferred midyear…and my first hand experiences in Southside APS , I observed
Southside corporal punishment…and abuse…

The comment made to me…”You don’t understand BLACK children.”

But honestly…if my punishment for blowing the whistle on misuse of Northside APS funds was a transfer to the Southside schools…

Why would I attempt to BLOW the Whistle on someone abusing a Southside child to minority APS Leadership…If reporting falsified attendance and misuse of funds of the WHITE PRINCIPAL means you are unworthy of employment in an APS- NORTHSIDE SCHOOLS…WHAT would happen if you reported these abusive issues in the APS Southside schools.

Southside APS teachers don’t dare to speak up…for fear of what would happen to their jobs.
And the APS-Southside beatings go on…unchallenged.

Of course you would need to not value your job to TELL…
and allow your teaching certificate to expire.

http://www.TopPublicSchoolCorruptionAtlanta.com

Top School---John Sam, Jr.

March 31st, 2011
3:07 pm

APS Teacher

March 30th, 2011
9:02 am

Maureen,

This doesn’t just go on in “rural Georgia.” In the lowest income APS schools, hitting, pinching, taping mouths shut, flicking children on the forehead, etc. are all COMMON discipline practices. The rational is always that this is the way their parents discipline them so it is how we have to discipline them too. It is outrageous.

@Top School …the LAW STATES YOU ARE ETHICALLY RESPONSIBLE TO REPORT THESE ISSUES…

But, if you report unethical conduct … they will retaliate against you!

gamom

March 31st, 2011
3:13 pm

All the teachers are mandated reporters – shame on you if you have been complacent in any way

gamom

March 31st, 2011
3:16 pm

Boy to we need reform fast – especially after reading some of the comments here — This is what Marc Ecko says about the matter – Bravo to him

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jason-pollock/exclusive-interview-with-_2_b_842662.html

South Georgia Teacher

March 31st, 2011
3:31 pm

Gamom, we actually don’t have many chronic discipline problems in my school, so students are not paddled often. Paddling is just one possible consequence for students who REPEATEDLY break the rules. Most students comply before they ever get that far. I am glad we have the option for ADMINISTRATORS to paddle, because it allows the students to avoid home suspension. Teachers never paddle. Students never witness paddlings.

Philosopher

March 31st, 2011
3:33 pm

Except that Mr. Ecko says:”But this is something that everyone can agree on, hitting children in public schools is simply wrong.”…obviously we aren’t there yet in this state…But we’ll keep trying to educate.

gamom

March 31st, 2011
3:44 pm

students never witness paddling – the mere fact that the children know paddling is going on creates a hostile fear filled learning environment. Don’tchya think there is snickering going on? I can promise you a lot of boys probably think this is a macho thing. — to take a paddling without crying – they probably have little wagers on that. Does the administrator call the parent each and every time? Who regulates how much paddling is going on? I’m curious what district you speak of. Is it reported each and every time to the state? You say it doesn’t happen that much. I say 1 is too many. There are districts reporting 1000’s of corporal punishment incidences per school year. Maureen has seen the documentation as she has stated. I don’t know what age you teach – but I sure hope it is not middle or high school. How do you in South Georgia handle bullying then?

gamom

March 31st, 2011
3:47 pm

@philosopher – I look at it this way – if TX can introduce a measure and it’s getting bi-partisan support – sure Georgia can. Would you be willing to write a few House Ed members? Don’t go by a few posts on these blogs – I believe deep down inside the many fine educators know this is wrong, but they just have to go along. Most of us parents are clearly aware its administrations that want to keep this policy going. The teachers can’t stand up and say no – those that have probably would lose their job.

Philosopher

March 31st, 2011
4:19 pm

I was with you until you said that the many fine educators know it’s wrong. How long have you been reading this blog? “Bring back corporal punishment in schools” is a loud and recurring theme in here.

gamom

March 31st, 2011
4:27 pm

I am trying to remain hopeful philosopher …:)

td

March 31st, 2011
4:32 pm

gamom

March 31st, 2011
3:13 pm
All the teachers are mandated reporters – shame on you if you have been complacent in any way

Spanking a child on the bottom is NOT abuse in the state of Georgia. Schools doing the same is a loco parentis capacity does not have to be reported under the mandated protocol procedures in the state.

I can testify from my own first hand experience that corporal punishment does work. I was disrespectful to a teacher in the second grade and got sent to the principals office. He made me call my mother to for permission to paddy me and she said yes and told him that she needed to know how many times he would hit me so that she would do it twice as much when I got home. I never disrespected another teacher again until I got to college.

I will also tell you that I could agree to not touch a child if you will agree to spank the parent in public if they can not make their child behave.

Ole Guy

March 31st, 2011
4:51 pm

OK, here’s the same song, umpteenth verse: All of a sudden, there appears to be concern that paddling might cause injury beyond a good “warming” effect upon the bu-tox. Sure, as a wise poster noted, kids have all sort of malady upon which a good paddling has potential for agrivation…WHAT ELSE IS NEW?

Philosopher

March 31st, 2011
5:00 pm

td- so you were controlled-took til college to be disrespectful again- impressive. The problem with your story is that it is illogical. Just beause you were spanked and it worked in that situation, does not mean that another, humane form of discipline would NOT have worked. No one questions the fact that you can conrol an animal…and most often a human smaller than yourself by beating it. That in no way makes it right, or smart, or effective…the child only learns that the bigger person will beat him up if he acts that way again. He does NOT learn that the action was wrong or even why it was wrong. He just learns that the big guy is bigger and can inflict pain…so he avaoids it…not what needed to be learned. Also learned, grown ups don’t need to use either self-control or wisdom…they are allowed get what they want by hitting…just because they can. Can’t wait til I grow up. Whoopee!

Me

March 31st, 2011
5:05 pm

South Georgia Teacher
March 31, 2011
11:07am

Fellow bloggers, what do you think is appropriate punishment for 6-8 grade students…

gamom, I think I asked a similar question yesterday and never did get an answer out of you. We all know you have ALOT to say on this subject, so please humor me for a moment and address the obvious question.

You. Principal of School ABC, have Johnny Badkid in your office. He’s had “a talkin to”, his parents have had “a talkin to” but they say they can’t control him either. He’s gone through detention, ISS, suspension, regular meetings with the counselor, but yet continues to curse at teachers and disrupts classes most days of the week. Give us an actual realistic and effective plan of action to discipline a student that has already gone through your laundry list of interventions.
And Philosopher, feel free to chime in with your thoughts too!

td

March 31st, 2011
5:07 pm

Philosopher

March 31st, 2011
5:00 pm

“No one questions the fact that you can conrol an animal…and most often a human smaller than yourself by beating it.”

Where did I say beating? I sad a spanking.

Public caning adults works pretty well in Singapore for people that do not want to be responsible. Don’t you think?

Ole Guy

March 31st, 2011
5:23 pm

Let’s revisit this issue…kids have had “maladies” of one flavor or another since Christ was a Corporal. WHY O’ WHY do we insist on continuing to place kids upon the pedistal of little lords and primadonas. Perhaps this is just one among many many reasons why this generation is so damn weak…physically, mentally, and morally. We continue to pander to the least “owie” which eminates from their lil ole selves. Too hot, too cold, being picked on, yada yada, yada…petition the courts, call upon Congress, place the Marines on standby, etc. WHEN are we going to simply toss kids into the pool of life; LET THEM face the problems, face the consequences and figure out, FOR THEMSELVES, how to correct the problem. As long as we place them, and keep them, within the plastic bubble of total insulation from the pointed end of life’s swords, they, as a generation, will hate you. Upon reaching the harsh realities of the adult world, they will become all but moot. We see this very social “phenomenon” today: high school “B” students who must take remedials/fail to graduate, kids/young adults who cannot pass a simple battery of tests, physical, mental (which are, in reality, an insult to basic intelligence), in order to enter the Military. Let us not overlook the inundated juvenile court system, another social phenomena which, in times past, simply did not exist, not because kids were so-well behaved (we were, in a simple, though non-pc word…ASS HOLES!). We did, however, gain, at a most early age, an understanding of the concept of CONSEQUENCE. Many of us, yours truly included, required continued “reminders”, in the form of paddlings and, yes, even a coach or two bouncing the kid around. The Priests and Brothers, back in 3rd thru 6th grades, would referee boxing matches, after school, in the playground. These were not necessarily “sporting events”, but placed for the benefit of kids who simply couldn’t get along during school hours. Parents were “inconvenienced” in having to come get their lil boots an hour or so after school…”Oh well, parents, that’s the way it is. You don’t like it…learn to teach your kid”.

No pc strictures, no fair vs unfair, no “where does it hurt, let me kiss your boo boo”. You people can argue the pros and cons of this and that, insist on laws, edicts, proclamations and such. LEAVE THE KIDS THE HELL ALONE…LET EM FACE THEIR PROBLEMS, DEAL WITH THEIR PROBLEMS, AND, WHEN THEY DON’T/WON’T GET WITH THE PROGRAM, STOP RUBBING THEIR BUTTS!

Philosopher

March 31st, 2011
5:37 pm

ole guy- wrong is wrong- even if you grew up with it. I grew up with regular spankings…and I raised 3 really great kids without ever hitting them. One of the great things about being human is that if we’re willing, we can learn new things. Lack of imagination and habit are not acceptable excuses for continuing bad behaviors.

I love teaching. I hate what it is becoming...

March 31st, 2011
5:40 pm

Philosopher: If your discipline plan fails to allow removal of a disruptive, disrespectful, threatening child…DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!”

If only it were so easy…..

Pray tell, what do you do when the principal refuses to allow you to remove disruptive students from your room because she does not want to deal with them? When you ask for support, she points to a sign on her door that says, “The Buck Stops With YOU” and tells you any discipline problems in your room are YOUR fault, suggesting your will be fired if you can’t handle your classroom?

What recourse do you have after you send a pair of disruptive students to the school’s newly hired “Discipline Officer” (a hulking ex-military guy) only to have him bring them back to your class within 30 minutes, saying they are too difficult to handle and refusing to take them anymore?

How do you handle a child who only *knows* physical discipline from home and realizing will not touch him, does whatever he dang well pleases (including hitting you and other students)? How should you react when he spits in your face, saying, “You can’t TOUCH me, you #%#*@!*#!” Because he is right. You can’t touch him. He laughs at any form of discipline you try to impose, and if you call his mother (no father in the picture) she will threaten to come up to school and bust your &*^*#.

What if your school refuses to write up chronic misbehaving students in order to avoid the PC police by having too many referrals of minority students?

How should you react when you are sent to observe a fellow teacher who is known to be a “good disciplinarian” so you can learn how to control your students, and after observing the teacher run a well managed classroom all day you are told the secret to her success is a good hard ruler? As her students file quietly out the door, you ask, voice filled with wonder, “How do you do it?” “Honey,” she says, shaking her head. “I don’t do anything different than you. Your good with your kids, but you see that?” And she points to a little supply closet in the corner. “If they act up, I take them in there and give ‘em a few good licks on their little bottoms with my trust ruler. Now, their parents know me, and know what I do, and don’t give a care.” Then she looks back at you, takes your hand in hers, and says, “But you see this?” She indicates the difference in your skin color and hers, “Don’t you dare touch them, child, cause YOU will end up in jail.”

Even it I could spank a student, I never would. However, it isn’t as easy as just “reasoning with them” or counting upon a strong, supportive administration, or calling the parents. I am so tired of arm chair philosophy from people who do not have a clue what some teachers go through – who try to deny it happens – or who try to make my experiences seem like some weird aberration. These kinds of things happen, and they happen a lot more often than anyone wants to admit.

Philosopher

March 31st, 2011
5:56 pm

I’m tired of whinese, too. I’ve walked away from more than one job because of unethical behavior and in some cases patient abuse on the part of my coworkers or boss. If you are aware of closet physical abuse and you aren’t doing something about it, then you are responsible, too! If you can’t stand the heat and aren’t willing to try to change the system, then do something else! I can tell you that if one teacher ever threatened or touched my child, most especially in secret, heads would roll and along with it would go anyone who knew anything about it! Fortunately that has never happened…so if 3 kids over 23 years can go through 6 public schools without any such incidences, there must be some schools you can move to.

SALLYB

March 31st, 2011
6:05 pm

At the risk of being repetitive…..This does NOT require corporal punishment!!!! It requires the thoughtful and skillful coopertation of all parties.
[1] THe school system…..to make the policy [and consistently enforce it]….If a child breaks one of the major rules of conduct, His/her parent is called to come pick him/her up.
[2] The “but I am at work” reason will not work. The choice is COME PICK UP YOUR CHILD WITHIN THE HOUR, or you may pick him/her up at your convenience at the local Juvenile faciliy.
[3] Follow through!!
THIS WILL WORK!!!!!NO CORPORAL PUNISHMENT….! JUST GOOD SENSE AND PARENTAL INVOLVEMENT…

gamom

March 31st, 2011
6:27 pm

td – corporal punishment statistics and data must be reported to the federal government – the U.S. Dept of Education does keep those records – go to the website and look it up. The problem however – is that it often is under-reported because people think they don’t have to report it for some reason – how do you think all this hub bub started – people started pulling the records to look see for themselves. I took it a step further and asked to see the State Doe’s records – guess what – the numbers keep going up! So you tell me, if it is so darn effective – why are the numbers going up? Pretzel logic does not apply to your explanation

MMead

March 31st, 2011
6:41 pm

Legal institutional violence toward schoolchildren in the U.S:

Schoolchildrens’ “spanking” related injuries (WARNING – These images may be deeply disturbing to some viewers. Do not open this page if children are present).
http://www.nospank.net/injuredkids.pdf

A Violent Education
http://www.hrw.org/en/reports/2008/08/19/violent-education

State Actors Beating Children:
A Call For Judicial Relief
http://lawreview.law.ucdavis.edu/issues/42-4_Sacks.pdf

Rape: Lesson No. 1
http://nospank.net/s-rape.htm

Read the facts about the “corporal punishment” of children/adolescents/teenagers in US Schools.

Visit Unlimited Justce on the web and on Facebook to add your voice.

I love teaching. I hate what it is becoming...

March 31st, 2011
6:43 pm

SallyB,

You make good points, but unfortunately, “thoughtful and skillful” does not always apply to “all parties.”

1. School systems/Administrators want to look good, so problems go unreported. Federal money, grant money, AYP -all can hinge on statistics that make follow-through on discipline less than desirable.

2. Our school tried that. The police and Juvenile facilities said, “Not our problem,” and that was that.

3. Can’t have 3 without 1 and 2.

It seems like the problems should be easy to solve… but in reality, they aren’t – and won’t be until schools and school systems stop running scared from threatening parents, and those parents who desire a safe learning environment start demanding that trouble makers are dealt with and removed from classrooms.

Ole Guy

March 31st, 2011
6:48 pm

Philo, as usual, it’s a pleasure responding to your thoughts. You may be fortunate in not being faced with the challenges, and responsibilities of dealing with, and guiding wayward youth. I, to, grew up in the fearful shadow of the knowledge that wayward behavior, on a repetitive basis, would surly earn some unpleasantries. Was it right? Was it wrong? Who’s to say. Would their have been a better way? Again, who’s to say. All I know is that, my experiences have borne out that the “endless second chance” simply does not work, exaserbates the kid’s problem, and, in the end, lends absolutely nothing toward (what many “old school” advocates may label as) character, discipline, and self-respect. I will label that which I firmly believe as neither right nor wrong, simply as that which, for many generations (certainly for myself and my gen) seems to have worked. I indeed remember the “questionable methods” which my superiors employed upon me during those “confusing years”. Was it right or wrong is certainly not the question, for I am quite certain these measures were not carried out in the name of pleasure,but rather, in the interests of what was deemed to be, in the long term, BEST. This (what may be labeled) heavy handedness, while unpleasant for all concerned, seems to have yielded positive effects for many gens who, like myself, now face our “declining years”…years in which we are able to assess our early experiences and just how these experiences reflect (positively and negatively) upon our lives, our achievements…and our failures, and, most-importantly, ourselves. Personally, I feel good about myself, despite those early youthful experiences during which parent, teacher, coach, etc practiced that which seems to be viewed, 40-some years later, with a level of disdain.

People of the 30s (slightly before my time) often speak of those terrible times in terms of status quo, simply because nobody ever told them that times were tough. These people, that gen, simply, out of necessity, adapted to the realities of the time. Perhaps it is just me, but I would hazzard a guess that the very experience of learning to adapt to life’s unpleasantries leads to a stronger, more-meaningful adulthood.

The very same concept applies in virtually all areas of growing up. If the kid is reminded that teacher shouldn’t scold at kid, glance upon kid with crossed eyes, etc, AND, as a last resort (if kid insists on stubornly adhearing to that behavior which is not tolerated), not be surprised when kid’s six is being “warmed up” at the working end of a paddle.

While this very concept may seem harsh, antiquated, and out-dated in this time of “enlightenment”, there should be no surprise whatsoever that a direct correlation exists between today’s overflowing courts, penal institutions, sad academic performances, and the myriad of of social issues (and the burdens placed upon limited public monies) we see today, AND the disappearance corporal punishment.

Me

March 31st, 2011
9:18 pm

*crickets*

Nobody?
No attempts to put an actual plan together if you were the person (principal, counselor, teacher) that is faced with the challenges that today’s youth present?

I find it extremely telling that such long posts with lines and lines of how abused our kids are, not a single one can provide that ~MAGIC~ answer that illustrates the seemingly simple solution that will inject respect, discipline and self-motivation into each child within our county/state/nation.

gamom

March 31st, 2011
9:25 pm

@Me

POstive behavior supports, bully prevention program, conflict resolution education – how’s that? PBIS cannot be implemented half way. The entire staff must buy in.

Dekalb Oldtimer

March 31st, 2011
9:30 pm

@Me……..SEE SALLYB @ 6:05….What are the objections to this plan ? If all parties agree that
[1] there is a huge problem
[2] this is a reasonable solution that requires the cooperation of several entities.
[3] policy changes need to be and must be made in order for this plan to be implemented
[4] consistent and total application of the policy without exception

Me

March 31st, 2011
9:50 pm

I think ya’ll are missing my point.
There are countless positive changes that could be made to improve our schools in many many ways. The things that you just posted would be GREAT if they existed, but they DON’T. I want you to tell me what the teachers and principals can do NOW. Tomorrow
.
The reality is that this entire issue of corporal punishment is but a small piece of the much larger picture of our schools in crisis. What does “Positive behavior support” mean to the teacher that’s getting verbally abused everyday but has her hands tied for lack of recourse? Fancy words for positive reinforcement won’t help you when a student disrupts every class he/she attends and has parents that aren’t invested in their own childs education. Conflict resolution means crap to the principal that is under pressure of losing their very JOBS if their stats aren’t up to par.

I don’t think anyone that has posted on this blog WANTS to spend all of their class time disciplining student after student…..Alot of your posts for how it SHOULD be are great ideas! But they’re not reality at the moment. In the meantime, what do they do?

gamom

March 31st, 2011
9:59 pm

Me – why are the suggestions dismissed – why can’t you approach your administration and say – look let’s try this great program .. look up pbis – educate yourself, and the change will start with you

Dekalb Oldtimer

March 31st, 2011
10:00 pm

@ME.RE: “The things that you just posted would be GREAT if they existed, but they DON’T”..:

The fact is, NOTHING exists at this time that works. Changes must be made!!! and sooner rather than later. THERE IS NO QUICK FIX! Planning, policy changes are necessary NOW.

Garry Owen

March 31st, 2011
10:34 pm

As a retired administrator I have former students tell me I paddled them in elementary school. Many of these students tell me the paddling made them stop and think about their actions then and today. I will admit I was the recipient of paddlings in school and I am not wrapped. Of course I knew what was coming at home if I was paddled at school.

long time educator

March 31st, 2011
10:38 pm

gamom,
I suggest that you offer your services as a substitute teacher for a couple of weeks in an urban high school environment. I think it would be enlightening for you, and once you have straightened out that school, perhaps you could share your ideas with the teachers on this blog who apparently are too dimwitted to see how easy classroom management can be.

gamom

March 31st, 2011
10:50 pm

@garry owen – precisely the problem you paddled because you were paddled…Hello??? Inovation will never come to georgia schools unless and until people think outside the box – just like many a fine administrator has done in other states. They educate kids just fine in 30 other states without the paddle. If any of you can provide the data to support that this works in a school, by all means cite it, tell us, share it – there is NOTHING to support your side – except your anecdotal experience that it supposedly worked for you. This 20111 – surely you can do better than that. For every person that has some kind of nostalgic memory of a paddling there are 10 kids that are traumatized by it, because it is becoming less and less acceptable and hopefully parents who give a damn will put a permanent stop to it through legislation.

Cobb History Teacher

April 1st, 2011
6:05 am

@gamom
I notice you fail to respond to suggestions that you enter the classroom as either a teacher or substitute teacher. This is typical of those who criticize the system but have no practical solutions. This also typical of those who want to pretend there is no problem, or know / believe their child is not part of the problem.

gamom

April 1st, 2011
8:51 am

@me – here’s what i would do with johhny ‘bad’kid – I would be really observe this kids behavior. I would really look at the grades. I would probably call in a counselor. Perhaps set up regular meetings with the counselor. At every step I would call the parent, and document when you and what you have done. As with anything, if it is not in writing, it was never done. Keep a file with your observations and interventions you’ve tried. The key here is do everything possible to keep the parent/guardian in the loop. Perhaps trying to figure out if there is some neglect or abuse going on at home — I would push for assessments on the kid – perhaps see if he has some kind of learning disorder, emotional disorder or the like. If attendance is an issue, you’d have to have a plan in place to get the kid to school – perhaps enlist the local juvenile court. If a child is being downright disrespectful despite giving ample correction methods- there most likely some serious issues going on at school . Maybe someone at home is not giving this kid attention. You have to be very clear in your expectations from in day in language and at the level for the kid to understand in his age group.

gamom

April 1st, 2011
8:53 am

sorry typos haven’t had my second cup of joe yet

I love teaching. I hate what it is becoming...

April 1st, 2011
9:54 am

gamom,

All good ideas…and ALL tried! You really must think teachers are clueless. We are not! Believe me, most of us have tried EVERYTHING to get these types of children help – for their sakes, our sakes and the sake of the rest of our students!

Counselor has three schools to cover and *might* be able to meet with the child (or you) once every two weeks for 15 minutes… *if* you even have a counselor available.

Parent’s phone is disconnected…again. And if you do reach the parents, they are likely to tell you, “It ain’t MY problem when he’s in school. YOU deal with him.”

I have kept files and files of documentation – on several students. (Usually it is not just “johhny bad kid” but “Johhny and all his buddies” too.)

Push for assessments? Schools WON’T assess without reams of paperwork and documentation… it can take months to collect enough documentation, and even then you are likely to be told, “Well, there has been *some* improvement*! Little Johhny got 12 problems right on your probe… and a month ago he got only 11! Keep up the good work!” I had a child with severe behavior issues. It took me ALL YEAR to get him assessed, and that only happened after he threatened to kill himself by throwing himself over the stairwell. In the meantime, he destroyed my classroom, beat up my students and used me for a punching bag. His mother was a crack addicted prostitute and had no interest in anything besides her next fix. He single handedly managed to ruin an entire year of education not only for himself, but also for the rest of my students. And yes, I tried everything you suggested, and much more….

Enlist the juvenile court to get a kid to school? They won’t. At least they never have in any of the situations in which we have tried. If it does not fall within their jurisdiction, they are not going to take it on. They are overburdened too. So does the school have to pay for a taxi to pick up wee Johhny and get him to school? Are you willing to pay taxes for that?

*If* the child is downright disrespectful? Do you think teachers are worried about the child who chews gum in class? How about the ones who punch other kids and teachers? Who hang out in the bathrooms and extort money out of classmates? Who try to break everything in your classroom? Who punch pregnant teachers in the stomach?

I am quite sure the Johnnies are not getting enough attention at home – cause mom is out turning tricks for money, or selling meth on the corner, or working three jobs and does not get home till after 9:00 pm and dad is no where in the picture.

The problem is that there is not just ONE Johnny, there are dozens…and one classroom may have six of them.

I applaud your desire to help – but you really have NO IDEA what a classroom in an urban low income area can be like!

I love teaching. I hate what it is becoming...

April 1st, 2011
10:13 am

Oh… and as for what *I* would do, if I actually had the power to do anything (teachers are the lowest of the low when it comes to power in a non-union school system) I would open more alternative schools for repeat behavior offenders. And I would establish expectations that are made clear to all parents and students through school assemblies, notes home and signed agreements. Then I would remain consistent in those expectations regardless of race or gender of students. Run the alternative schools with strict discipline and very little freedom, and have students slowly *earn* their way back into the regular school setting.

But it won’t be done, because it would require someone willing to take on parents who would be fine with the system until it was suddenly *their* child and then the accusations would fly, districts willing to set up well run alternative schools (which would cost money at the outset, though they would likely save money in the long run), and close supervision of the system to make sure it was not being abused by anyone. In other words, to much effort on the part of higher ups…. it is far easier on everyone but the teachers and other students to keep the kids in the classrooms and sweep the problems under the rug.

Jack

April 1st, 2011
12:20 pm

GaMom … as a public school teacher myself, I’d love to know which optometrist prescribed those rose-colored glasses you’re looking through. The scenarios you describe, the interventions you recommend, are excellent ones — IF we had the personnel and the time to implement them all for all of the children who will need them. You may not have noticed, but the state is *cutting* money to schools, not increasing it — so we don’t have the people to make all that happen. Add in what’s already been said (parents’ phones disconnected AGAIN, parents completely uninterested and/or clueless about their kids, etc.) and the question remains … what, oh WHAT, can we do?

td

April 1st, 2011
12:30 pm

gamom

April 1st, 2011
8:51 am

You really do not have a clue. Please define your version of neglect and abuse? DFCS will tell you that every juvenile court judge in this state will look at the following: Is the child feed? Does the child have clothes? Does the child get some food to eat (if not then put them on FS)? Does the child get a bath at least once every three days? Are there any bad bruises on the child? If all the above is yes then there is no abuse or neglect or put them on a parenting plan to improve. The judges will not remove a child unless it is severe physical abuse (neglect almost never).

The state currently does not have enough Foster Parents to meet the needs of the few children judges do remove. Your plan would do nothing more than create a bigger log jam and waste a great deal of the time and resources of teachers and school officials because even if you found your neglect nothing would be done on the judges level.

gamom

April 1st, 2011
1:42 pm

td – can’t you all partner with CASA somehow?

gamom

April 1st, 2011
1:45 pm

I know there are too many cuts going – I don’t agree with them either. And I know if you push for assessment, you won’t get it – my goodness – cry to the rooftops then, but for godsakes – stop blaming the kids. They are the ones being short changed. And as you guys get further frustrated – the numbers of beatings have gone up over the last 2 years. The data is available – that isn’t working either!!! None of you see the point whatsover – I do have a clue – you’re in a tough spot, but you have got to partner up with every agency available to you to get these kids in the right direction. Parents – who often don’t know their rights – need to school themselves as well. You can’t be a parent and sign some stupid form to allow an administrator to beat the kid. Stand up and say no Teachers. That is not appropriate and you all know it!

Economics Teacher

April 1st, 2011
2:44 pm

Since there are so many antedotes on here about being paddled in school as a child, I’ll share mine.

In the second grade I got paddled every single day for not doing my homework. The reason that I never did my homework is because my father was an abusive alcoholic and our evenings were spent being terrorized by him.

You would think after a few days of paddling, the teacher would have thought “wait a minute, this isn’t working, it isn’t making her do her homework, maybe I should try something else.” Nope, she never did. She paddled me ever single day of that school year. It was humiliating and it didn’t work!

I’m very surprised at the amount of support for corporal punishment in schools. I would never hit my child and I don’t expect anyone else to either. My child has never been spanked and she is a very respectful and good student.

Me

April 1st, 2011
3:43 pm

CASA?? I knew it knew it knew it!!
No wonder we’re going in a circle…..
Tell me gamom, are you part of the CASA program?

gamom

April 1st, 2011
5:27 pm

Me – i am not part of the CASA program. I am just a regular nobody, with no power but very annoyed that I have to encounter teachers that think that hitting kids is acceptable in this day and age and I want it stopped. Now. I should be able to relocate to any place in Georgia that I want to and send my children to a safe non-hostile learning environment. I shouldn’t have to place my children anywhere near a school where they would know their peers were getting hit. That’s the same as playing violent video games in my book, because it doesn’t work and often leads to more aggressive kids – whether in school or outside the school in the neighborhood. It makes kids better liars too, so they don’t get caught doing anything wrong. It simply disgusts me the of support for this abusive tactic schools use. It’s total hypocrisy.

Economics Teacher – I too have not, will not nor ever will hit my children because I believe that cycles of abuse need to be broken and not continued generation after generation simply because – it was a common practice and everybody does it. My kids are respectful, honor students, involved in their community and one is about to graduate college.

td

April 1st, 2011
5:28 pm

gamom

April 1st, 2011
1:42 pm
td – can’t you all partner with CASA somehow?

CASA is part of the Juvenile court system and still has to answer to the Judge. They are a waste really a big waste of time and have nothing to do with recruiting foster parents. If you really want to do something then become a foster parent, recruit more foster parents and spread the word to all your family and friends to become foster parents.

gamom

April 1st, 2011
5:35 pm

td – I personally know foster parents and CASA workers – you would be wrong on your assertion that they are a waste of time. That is your opinion, but not accurate

td

April 1st, 2011
6:14 pm

gamom

April 1st, 2011
5:35 pm
td – I personally know foster parents and CASA workers – you would be wrong on your assertion that they are a waste of time. That is your opinion, but not accurate

I did not say anything about foster parents. They need a special place in heaven saved for them. I said CASA is a waste of time in the same way that GALS (guardian as litums) in the family court system is a waste of time, money and effort. The judges have all the power and make all the decisions. The CASA worker learns real fast what the Juvenile court judge expects and they come up with their solution to the problem to match the judges opinion 99% of the time.

gamom

April 1st, 2011
6:16 pm

TD – on another note – guess what April is Child Abuse Prevention Month… Wouldn’t it be so spectacular if all you teachers denounce corporal punishment in Georgia schools and speak out against for the entire month. Come on try it… I dare ya.

Lisa B.

April 1st, 2011
6:23 pm

In a perfect, well-funded world, high-quality alternative schools are the answer. I’ve seen fabulous programs designed to accelerate students so they can catch up with their peers if needed, and packed with loads of couseling. I’ve even seen programs like this survive 2-3 years before death by the budget axe. It’s to bad, really. Everyone knows that investing in children and teens is expensive, but saves billions in crime and prison costs later. Still, the funding ends.

Me

April 1st, 2011
8:38 pm

@Maureen, Speaking only for myself, I have had nothing but sadly ridiculous experiences with CASA folks. It’s nice to hear that there are some that are doing good out there, but I haven’t met one yet.

long time educator

April 1st, 2011
10:12 pm

gamom,
If everyone else is trying to tell you that you are clueless about the current state of public education, then maybe it would behoove you to consider that you just might possibly be ………clueless. I am serious; try subbing before offering silly platitudes. Teachers are in the trenches and have long ago tried anything and everything they can think of. Try subbing and you will see how naive you are.

clueless one

April 1st, 2011
11:30 pm

yeah … whatever you say

Corporal punishment: Why are we still hitting students in schools?

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Corporal punishment: Why are we still hitting students in schools?

197 comments Add your comment

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