Corporal punishment: Why are we still hitting students in schools?
As a former writer on family issues, I was always taken aback when parents and schools espoused a multi-vitamin view of physical punishment, telling me that children needed a whack now and then to grow up big and strong.
I’ve been a longtime advocate of barring schools from using corporal punishment. With all the attention around the abuse of children , it stuns me that we allow adults to legally strike students.
Only 20 states, including Georgia, still permit paddling in their schools, but that is changing.
Some dedicated parents in Georgia are attempting to impose a ban here, but the Legislature has adopted a hands-off attitude, enabling local school districts to decide for themselves whether to paddle. Most metro districts eschew physical discipline, but it does go on, especially in rural Georgia.
While there are obvious educational, moral and psychological problems with paddles that ought to compel districts to retire them, there’s also the threat of lawsuits. It’s surprising that school systems would continue a practice that is such a legal minefield.
I am on several e-mail lists and get a lot of daily updates on the national effort to end corporal punishment, which is most common in Southern schools. I am happy to report that the campaign is gaining momentum even in states that have revered the paddle.
The New York Times took up the topic this week.
Among the comments in the story:
When Tyler Anastopoulos got in trouble for skipping detention at his high school recently, he received the same punishment that students in parts of rural Texas have been getting for generations.
Tyler, an 11th grader from Wichita Falls, was sent to the assistant principal and given three swift swats to the backside with a paddle, recalled Angie Herring, his mother. The blows were so severe that they caused deep bruises, and Tyler wound up in the hospital, Ms. Herring said.
While the image of the high school principal patrolling the halls with paddle in hand is largely of the past, corporal punishment is still alive in 20 states, according to the Center for Effective Discipline, which tracks its use in schools around the country and encourages its end. Most of those states are in the South, where paddling remains ingrained in the social and family fabric of some communities.
Each year, prodded by child safety advocates, state legislatures debate whether corporal punishment amounts to an archaic form of child abuse or an effective means of discipline.
This month, Tyler, who attends City View Junior/Senior High School, told his story to lawmakers in Texas, which is considering a ban on corporal punishment. The same week, legislators in New Mexico voted to end the practice there.
Texas schools, Ms. Herring fumed, appear to have free rein in disciplining a student, “as long as you don’t kill him.”
“If I did that to my son,” she said, “I’d go to jail.”
Up until about 25 years ago, corporal punishment in public schools could be found in all but a handful of states, said Nadine Block, the founder of the Center for Effective Discipline. Prompted by the threat of lawsuits and research that questioned its effectiveness, states gradually started banning the practice.
According to estimates by the federal Department of Education, 223,190 children were subjected to corporal punishment in the 2005-6 school year. That was a nearly 20 percent drop from a few years earlier, Ms. Block said.
In Texas, at least 27 of about 1,000 school districts still use corporal punishment, said Jimmy Dunne, the founder and president of another group that is against the practice, People Opposed to Paddling Students.
In New Mexico — where more than a third of the school districts permit corporal punishment, according to a local children’s legal services group — legislators approved a paddling ban this month. Gov. Susana Martinez, a Republican, has not indicated whether she will sign the bill.
Opponents of the measure, like State Senator Vernon D. Asbill, worried that a ban would tie teachers’ hands and make it harder for them to control students. “With parental supervision and parental approval, I believe it’s appropriate,” said Mr. Asbill, a Republican and a longtime teacher and school administrator from Carlsbad. “The threat of it keeps many of our kids in line so they can learn.”
But State Senator Cynthia Nava, a Democrat and a school superintendent from Las Cruces who supports the ban, said schools were no place for violence of any sort. “It’s shocking to me that people got up on the floor and argued passionately to preserve it,” she said of corporal punishment. “We should be educating kids that they can’t solve problems with violence.”
Calls to end corporal punishment have gotten louder of late, even in states unlikely to pass a ban. In Mississippi, the family of a teenager who was paddled in school has filed a federal lawsuit. The suit, filed against the Tate County School District, claims that corporal punishment is unconstitutional because it is applied disproportionately to boys.
The teenager’s lawyer, Joe Murray, is also representing the family of another student who was paddled at the same high school this month. In that case, the boy was struck so hard that he passed out and broke his jaw, Mr. Murray said.
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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197 comments Add your comment
gamom
March 31st, 2011
3:47 pm
@philosopher – I look at it this way – if TX can introduce a measure and it’s getting bi-partisan support – sure Georgia can. Would you be willing to write a few House Ed members? Don’t go by a few posts on these blogs – I believe deep down inside the many fine educators know this is wrong, but they just have to go along. Most of us parents are clearly aware its administrations that want to keep this policy going. The teachers can’t stand up and say no – those that have probably would lose their job.
Philosopher
March 31st, 2011
4:19 pm
I was with you until you said that the many fine educators know it’s wrong. How long have you been reading this blog? “Bring back corporal punishment in schools” is a loud and recurring theme in here.
gamom
March 31st, 2011
4:27 pm
I am trying to remain hopeful philosopher …:)
td
March 31st, 2011
4:32 pm
gamom
March 31st, 2011
3:13 pm
All the teachers are mandated reporters – shame on you if you have been complacent in any way
Spanking a child on the bottom is NOT abuse in the state of Georgia. Schools doing the same is a loco parentis capacity does not have to be reported under the mandated protocol procedures in the state.
I can testify from my own first hand experience that corporal punishment does work. I was disrespectful to a teacher in the second grade and got sent to the principals office. He made me call my mother to for permission to paddy me and she said yes and told him that she needed to know how many times he would hit me so that she would do it twice as much when I got home. I never disrespected another teacher again until I got to college.
I will also tell you that I could agree to not touch a child if you will agree to spank the parent in public if they can not make their child behave.
Ole Guy
March 31st, 2011
4:51 pm
OK, here’s the same song, umpteenth verse: All of a sudden, there appears to be concern that paddling might cause injury beyond a good “warming” effect upon the bu-tox. Sure, as a wise poster noted, kids have all sort of malady upon which a good paddling has potential for agrivation…WHAT ELSE IS NEW?
Philosopher
March 31st, 2011
5:00 pm
td- so you were controlled-took til college to be disrespectful again- impressive. The problem with your story is that it is illogical. Just beause you were spanked and it worked in that situation, does not mean that another, humane form of discipline would NOT have worked. No one questions the fact that you can conrol an animal…and most often a human smaller than yourself by beating it. That in no way makes it right, or smart, or effective…the child only learns that the bigger person will beat him up if he acts that way again. He does NOT learn that the action was wrong or even why it was wrong. He just learns that the big guy is bigger and can inflict pain…so he avaoids it…not what needed to be learned. Also learned, grown ups don’t need to use either self-control or wisdom…they are allowed get what they want by hitting…just because they can. Can’t wait til I grow up. Whoopee!
Me
March 31st, 2011
5:05 pm
South Georgia Teacher
March 31, 2011
11:07am
Fellow bloggers, what do you think is appropriate punishment for 6-8 grade students…
gamom, I think I asked a similar question yesterday and never did get an answer out of you. We all know you have ALOT to say on this subject, so please humor me for a moment and address the obvious question.
You. Principal of School ABC, have Johnny Badkid in your office. He’s had “a talkin to”, his parents have had “a talkin to” but they say they can’t control him either. He’s gone through detention, ISS, suspension, regular meetings with the counselor, but yet continues to curse at teachers and disrupts classes most days of the week. Give us an actual realistic and effective plan of action to discipline a student that has already gone through your laundry list of interventions.
And Philosopher, feel free to chime in with your thoughts too!
td
March 31st, 2011
5:07 pm
Philosopher
March 31st, 2011
5:00 pm
“No one questions the fact that you can conrol an animal…and most often a human smaller than yourself by beating it.”
Where did I say beating? I sad a spanking.
Public caning adults works pretty well in Singapore for people that do not want to be responsible. Don’t you think?
Ole Guy
March 31st, 2011
5:23 pm
Let’s revisit this issue…kids have had “maladies” of one flavor or another since Christ was a Corporal. WHY O’ WHY do we insist on continuing to place kids upon the pedistal of little lords and primadonas. Perhaps this is just one among many many reasons why this generation is so damn weak…physically, mentally, and morally. We continue to pander to the least “owie” which eminates from their lil ole selves. Too hot, too cold, being picked on, yada yada, yada…petition the courts, call upon Congress, place the Marines on standby, etc. WHEN are we going to simply toss kids into the pool of life; LET THEM face the problems, face the consequences and figure out, FOR THEMSELVES, how to correct the problem. As long as we place them, and keep them, within the plastic bubble of total insulation from the pointed end of life’s swords, they, as a generation, will hate you. Upon reaching the harsh realities of the adult world, they will become all but moot. We see this very social “phenomenon” today: high school “B” students who must take remedials/fail to graduate, kids/young adults who cannot pass a simple battery of tests, physical, mental (which are, in reality, an insult to basic intelligence), in order to enter the Military. Let us not overlook the inundated juvenile court system, another social phenomena which, in times past, simply did not exist, not because kids were so-well behaved (we were, in a simple, though non-pc word…ASS HOLES!). We did, however, gain, at a most early age, an understanding of the concept of CONSEQUENCE. Many of us, yours truly included, required continued “reminders”, in the form of paddlings and, yes, even a coach or two bouncing the kid around. The Priests and Brothers, back in 3rd thru 6th grades, would referee boxing matches, after school, in the playground. These were not necessarily “sporting events”, but placed for the benefit of kids who simply couldn’t get along during school hours. Parents were “inconvenienced” in having to come get their lil boots an hour or so after school…”Oh well, parents, that’s the way it is. You don’t like it…learn to teach your kid”.
No pc strictures, no fair vs unfair, no “where does it hurt, let me kiss your boo boo”. You people can argue the pros and cons of this and that, insist on laws, edicts, proclamations and such. LEAVE THE KIDS THE HELL ALONE…LET EM FACE THEIR PROBLEMS, DEAL WITH THEIR PROBLEMS, AND, WHEN THEY DON’T/WON’T GET WITH THE PROGRAM, STOP RUBBING THEIR BUTTS!
Philosopher
March 31st, 2011
5:37 pm
ole guy- wrong is wrong- even if you grew up with it. I grew up with regular spankings…and I raised 3 really great kids without ever hitting them. One of the great things about being human is that if we’re willing, we can learn new things. Lack of imagination and habit are not acceptable excuses for continuing bad behaviors.
I love teaching. I hate what it is becoming...
March 31st, 2011
5:40 pm
Philosopher: If your discipline plan fails to allow removal of a disruptive, disrespectful, threatening child…DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!”
If only it were so easy…..
Pray tell, what do you do when the principal refuses to allow you to remove disruptive students from your room because she does not want to deal with them? When you ask for support, she points to a sign on her door that says, “The Buck Stops With YOU” and tells you any discipline problems in your room are YOUR fault, suggesting your will be fired if you can’t handle your classroom?
What recourse do you have after you send a pair of disruptive students to the school’s newly hired “Discipline Officer” (a hulking ex-military guy) only to have him bring them back to your class within 30 minutes, saying they are too difficult to handle and refusing to take them anymore?
How do you handle a child who only *knows* physical discipline from home and realizing will not touch him, does whatever he dang well pleases (including hitting you and other students)? How should you react when he spits in your face, saying, “You can’t TOUCH me, you #%#*@!*#!” Because he is right. You can’t touch him. He laughs at any form of discipline you try to impose, and if you call his mother (no father in the picture) she will threaten to come up to school and bust your &*^*#.
What if your school refuses to write up chronic misbehaving students in order to avoid the PC police by having too many referrals of minority students?
How should you react when you are sent to observe a fellow teacher who is known to be a “good disciplinarian” so you can learn how to control your students, and after observing the teacher run a well managed classroom all day you are told the secret to her success is a good hard ruler? As her students file quietly out the door, you ask, voice filled with wonder, “How do you do it?” “Honey,” she says, shaking her head. “I don’t do anything different than you. Your good with your kids, but you see that?” And she points to a little supply closet in the corner. “If they act up, I take them in there and give ‘em a few good licks on their little bottoms with my trust ruler. Now, their parents know me, and know what I do, and don’t give a care.” Then she looks back at you, takes your hand in hers, and says, “But you see this?” She indicates the difference in your skin color and hers, “Don’t you dare touch them, child, cause YOU will end up in jail.”
Even it I could spank a student, I never would. However, it isn’t as easy as just “reasoning with them” or counting upon a strong, supportive administration, or calling the parents. I am so tired of arm chair philosophy from people who do not have a clue what some teachers go through – who try to deny it happens – or who try to make my experiences seem like some weird aberration. These kinds of things happen, and they happen a lot more often than anyone wants to admit.
Philosopher
March 31st, 2011
5:56 pm
I’m tired of whinese, too. I’ve walked away from more than one job because of unethical behavior and in some cases patient abuse on the part of my coworkers or boss. If you are aware of closet physical abuse and you aren’t doing something about it, then you are responsible, too! If you can’t stand the heat and aren’t willing to try to change the system, then do something else! I can tell you that if one teacher ever threatened or touched my child, most especially in secret, heads would roll and along with it would go anyone who knew anything about it! Fortunately that has never happened…so if 3 kids over 23 years can go through 6 public schools without any such incidences, there must be some schools you can move to.
SALLYB
March 31st, 2011
6:05 pm
At the risk of being repetitive…..This does NOT require corporal punishment!!!! It requires the thoughtful and skillful coopertation of all parties.
[1] THe school system…..to make the policy [and consistently enforce it]….If a child breaks one of the major rules of conduct, His/her parent is called to come pick him/her up.
[2] The “but I am at work” reason will not work. The choice is COME PICK UP YOUR CHILD WITHIN THE HOUR, or you may pick him/her up at your convenience at the local Juvenile faciliy.
[3] Follow through!!
THIS WILL WORK!!!!!NO CORPORAL PUNISHMENT….! JUST GOOD SENSE AND PARENTAL INVOLVEMENT…
gamom
March 31st, 2011
6:27 pm
td – corporal punishment statistics and data must be reported to the federal government – the U.S. Dept of Education does keep those records – go to the website and look it up. The problem however – is that it often is under-reported because people think they don’t have to report it for some reason – how do you think all this hub bub started – people started pulling the records to look see for themselves. I took it a step further and asked to see the State Doe’s records – guess what – the numbers keep going up! So you tell me, if it is so darn effective – why are the numbers going up? Pretzel logic does not apply to your explanation
MMead
March 31st, 2011
6:41 pm
Legal institutional violence toward schoolchildren in the U.S:
Schoolchildrens’ “spanking” related injuries (WARNING – These images may be deeply disturbing to some viewers. Do not open this page if children are present).
http://www.nospank.net/injuredkids.pdf
A Violent Education
http://www.hrw.org/en/reports/2008/08/19/violent-education
State Actors Beating Children:
A Call For Judicial Relief
http://lawreview.law.ucdavis.edu/issues/42-4_Sacks.pdf
Rape: Lesson No. 1
http://nospank.net/s-rape.htm
Read the facts about the “corporal punishment” of children/adolescents/teenagers in US Schools.
Visit Unlimited Justce on the web and on Facebook to add your voice.
I love teaching. I hate what it is becoming...
March 31st, 2011
6:43 pm
SallyB,
You make good points, but unfortunately, “thoughtful and skillful” does not always apply to “all parties.”
1. School systems/Administrators want to look good, so problems go unreported. Federal money, grant money, AYP -all can hinge on statistics that make follow-through on discipline less than desirable.
2. Our school tried that. The police and Juvenile facilities said, “Not our problem,” and that was that.
3. Can’t have 3 without 1 and 2.
It seems like the problems should be easy to solve… but in reality, they aren’t – and won’t be until schools and school systems stop running scared from threatening parents, and those parents who desire a safe learning environment start demanding that trouble makers are dealt with and removed from classrooms.
Ole Guy
March 31st, 2011
6:48 pm
Philo, as usual, it’s a pleasure responding to your thoughts. You may be fortunate in not being faced with the challenges, and responsibilities of dealing with, and guiding wayward youth. I, to, grew up in the fearful shadow of the knowledge that wayward behavior, on a repetitive basis, would surly earn some unpleasantries. Was it right? Was it wrong? Who’s to say. Would their have been a better way? Again, who’s to say. All I know is that, my experiences have borne out that the “endless second chance” simply does not work, exaserbates the kid’s problem, and, in the end, lends absolutely nothing toward (what many “old school” advocates may label as) character, discipline, and self-respect. I will label that which I firmly believe as neither right nor wrong, simply as that which, for many generations (certainly for myself and my gen) seems to have worked. I indeed remember the “questionable methods” which my superiors employed upon me during those “confusing years”. Was it right or wrong is certainly not the question, for I am quite certain these measures were not carried out in the name of pleasure,but rather, in the interests of what was deemed to be, in the long term, BEST. This (what may be labeled) heavy handedness, while unpleasant for all concerned, seems to have yielded positive effects for many gens who, like myself, now face our “declining years”…years in which we are able to assess our early experiences and just how these experiences reflect (positively and negatively) upon our lives, our achievements…and our failures, and, most-importantly, ourselves. Personally, I feel good about myself, despite those early youthful experiences during which parent, teacher, coach, etc practiced that which seems to be viewed, 40-some years later, with a level of disdain.
People of the 30s (slightly before my time) often speak of those terrible times in terms of status quo, simply because nobody ever told them that times were tough. These people, that gen, simply, out of necessity, adapted to the realities of the time. Perhaps it is just me, but I would hazzard a guess that the very experience of learning to adapt to life’s unpleasantries leads to a stronger, more-meaningful adulthood.
The very same concept applies in virtually all areas of growing up. If the kid is reminded that teacher shouldn’t scold at kid, glance upon kid with crossed eyes, etc, AND, as a last resort (if kid insists on stubornly adhearing to that behavior which is not tolerated), not be surprised when kid’s six is being “warmed up” at the working end of a paddle.
While this very concept may seem harsh, antiquated, and out-dated in this time of “enlightenment”, there should be no surprise whatsoever that a direct correlation exists between today’s overflowing courts, penal institutions, sad academic performances, and the myriad of of social issues (and the burdens placed upon limited public monies) we see today, AND the disappearance corporal punishment.
Me
March 31st, 2011
9:18 pm
*crickets*
Nobody?
No attempts to put an actual plan together if you were the person (principal, counselor, teacher) that is faced with the challenges that today’s youth present?
I find it extremely telling that such long posts with lines and lines of how abused our kids are, not a single one can provide that ~MAGIC~ answer that illustrates the seemingly simple solution that will inject respect, discipline and self-motivation into each child within our county/state/nation.
gamom
March 31st, 2011
9:25 pm
@Me
POstive behavior supports, bully prevention program, conflict resolution education – how’s that? PBIS cannot be implemented half way. The entire staff must buy in.
Dekalb Oldtimer
March 31st, 2011
9:30 pm
@Me……..SEE SALLYB @ 6:05….What are the objections to this plan ? If all parties agree that
[1] there is a huge problem
[2] this is a reasonable solution that requires the cooperation of several entities.
[3] policy changes need to be and must be made in order for this plan to be implemented
[4] consistent and total application of the policy without exception
Me
March 31st, 2011
9:50 pm
I think ya’ll are missing my point.
There are countless positive changes that could be made to improve our schools in many many ways. The things that you just posted would be GREAT if they existed, but they DON’T. I want you to tell me what the teachers and principals can do NOW. Tomorrow
.
The reality is that this entire issue of corporal punishment is but a small piece of the much larger picture of our schools in crisis. What does “Positive behavior support” mean to the teacher that’s getting verbally abused everyday but has her hands tied for lack of recourse? Fancy words for positive reinforcement won’t help you when a student disrupts every class he/she attends and has parents that aren’t invested in their own childs education. Conflict resolution means crap to the principal that is under pressure of losing their very JOBS if their stats aren’t up to par.
I don’t think anyone that has posted on this blog WANTS to spend all of their class time disciplining student after student…..Alot of your posts for how it SHOULD be are great ideas! But they’re not reality at the moment. In the meantime, what do they do?
gamom
March 31st, 2011
9:59 pm
Me – why are the suggestions dismissed – why can’t you approach your administration and say – look let’s try this great program .. look up pbis – educate yourself, and the change will start with you
Dekalb Oldtimer
March 31st, 2011
10:00 pm
@ME.RE: “The things that you just posted would be GREAT if they existed, but they DON’T”..:
The fact is, NOTHING exists at this time that works. Changes must be made!!! and sooner rather than later. THERE IS NO QUICK FIX! Planning, policy changes are necessary NOW.
Garry Owen
March 31st, 2011
10:34 pm
As a retired administrator I have former students tell me I paddled them in elementary school. Many of these students tell me the paddling made them stop and think about their actions then and today. I will admit I was the recipient of paddlings in school and I am not wrapped. Of course I knew what was coming at home if I was paddled at school.
long time educator
March 31st, 2011
10:38 pm
gamom,
I suggest that you offer your services as a substitute teacher for a couple of weeks in an urban high school environment. I think it would be enlightening for you, and once you have straightened out that school, perhaps you could share your ideas with the teachers on this blog who apparently are too dimwitted to see how easy classroom management can be.
gamom
March 31st, 2011
10:50 pm
@garry owen – precisely the problem you paddled because you were paddled…Hello??? Inovation will never come to georgia schools unless and until people think outside the box – just like many a fine administrator has done in other states. They educate kids just fine in 30 other states without the paddle. If any of you can provide the data to support that this works in a school, by all means cite it, tell us, share it – there is NOTHING to support your side – except your anecdotal experience that it supposedly worked for you. This 20111 – surely you can do better than that. For every person that has some kind of nostalgic memory of a paddling there are 10 kids that are traumatized by it, because it is becoming less and less acceptable and hopefully parents who give a damn will put a permanent stop to it through legislation.
Cobb History Teacher
April 1st, 2011
6:05 am
@gamom
I notice you fail to respond to suggestions that you enter the classroom as either a teacher or substitute teacher. This is typical of those who criticize the system but have no practical solutions. This also typical of those who want to pretend there is no problem, or know / believe their child is not part of the problem.
gamom
April 1st, 2011
8:51 am
@me – here’s what i would do with johhny ‘bad’kid – I would be really observe this kids behavior. I would really look at the grades. I would probably call in a counselor. Perhaps set up regular meetings with the counselor. At every step I would call the parent, and document when you and what you have done. As with anything, if it is not in writing, it was never done. Keep a file with your observations and interventions you’ve tried. The key here is do everything possible to keep the parent/guardian in the loop. Perhaps trying to figure out if there is some neglect or abuse going on at home — I would push for assessments on the kid – perhaps see if he has some kind of learning disorder, emotional disorder or the like. If attendance is an issue, you’d have to have a plan in place to get the kid to school – perhaps enlist the local juvenile court. If a child is being downright disrespectful despite giving ample correction methods- there most likely some serious issues going on at school . Maybe someone at home is not giving this kid attention. You have to be very clear in your expectations from in day in language and at the level for the kid to understand in his age group.
gamom
April 1st, 2011
8:53 am
sorry typos haven’t had my second cup of joe yet
I love teaching. I hate what it is becoming...
April 1st, 2011
9:54 am
gamom,
All good ideas…and ALL tried! You really must think teachers are clueless. We are not! Believe me, most of us have tried EVERYTHING to get these types of children help – for their sakes, our sakes and the sake of the rest of our students!
Counselor has three schools to cover and *might* be able to meet with the child (or you) once every two weeks for 15 minutes… *if* you even have a counselor available.
Parent’s phone is disconnected…again. And if you do reach the parents, they are likely to tell you, “It ain’t MY problem when he’s in school. YOU deal with him.”
I have kept files and files of documentation – on several students. (Usually it is not just “johhny bad kid” but “Johhny and all his buddies” too.)
Push for assessments? Schools WON’T assess without reams of paperwork and documentation… it can take months to collect enough documentation, and even then you are likely to be told, “Well, there has been *some* improvement*! Little Johhny got 12 problems right on your probe… and a month ago he got only 11! Keep up the good work!” I had a child with severe behavior issues. It took me ALL YEAR to get him assessed, and that only happened after he threatened to kill himself by throwing himself over the stairwell. In the meantime, he destroyed my classroom, beat up my students and used me for a punching bag. His mother was a crack addicted prostitute and had no interest in anything besides her next fix. He single handedly managed to ruin an entire year of education not only for himself, but also for the rest of my students. And yes, I tried everything you suggested, and much more….
Enlist the juvenile court to get a kid to school? They won’t. At least they never have in any of the situations in which we have tried. If it does not fall within their jurisdiction, they are not going to take it on. They are overburdened too. So does the school have to pay for a taxi to pick up wee Johhny and get him to school? Are you willing to pay taxes for that?
*If* the child is downright disrespectful? Do you think teachers are worried about the child who chews gum in class? How about the ones who punch other kids and teachers? Who hang out in the bathrooms and extort money out of classmates? Who try to break everything in your classroom? Who punch pregnant teachers in the stomach?
I am quite sure the Johnnies are not getting enough attention at home – cause mom is out turning tricks for money, or selling meth on the corner, or working three jobs and does not get home till after 9:00 pm and dad is no where in the picture.
The problem is that there is not just ONE Johnny, there are dozens…and one classroom may have six of them.
I applaud your desire to help – but you really have NO IDEA what a classroom in an urban low income area can be like!
I love teaching. I hate what it is becoming...
April 1st, 2011
10:13 am
Oh… and as for what *I* would do, if I actually had the power to do anything (teachers are the lowest of the low when it comes to power in a non-union school system) I would open more alternative schools for repeat behavior offenders. And I would establish expectations that are made clear to all parents and students through school assemblies, notes home and signed agreements. Then I would remain consistent in those expectations regardless of race or gender of students. Run the alternative schools with strict discipline and very little freedom, and have students slowly *earn* their way back into the regular school setting.
But it won’t be done, because it would require someone willing to take on parents who would be fine with the system until it was suddenly *their* child and then the accusations would fly, districts willing to set up well run alternative schools (which would cost money at the outset, though they would likely save money in the long run), and close supervision of the system to make sure it was not being abused by anyone. In other words, to much effort on the part of higher ups…. it is far easier on everyone but the teachers and other students to keep the kids in the classrooms and sweep the problems under the rug.
Jack
April 1st, 2011
12:20 pm
GaMom … as a public school teacher myself, I’d love to know which optometrist prescribed those rose-colored glasses you’re looking through. The scenarios you describe, the interventions you recommend, are excellent ones — IF we had the personnel and the time to implement them all for all of the children who will need them. You may not have noticed, but the state is *cutting* money to schools, not increasing it — so we don’t have the people to make all that happen. Add in what’s already been said (parents’ phones disconnected AGAIN, parents completely uninterested and/or clueless about their kids, etc.) and the question remains … what, oh WHAT, can we do?
td
April 1st, 2011
12:30 pm
gamom
April 1st, 2011
8:51 am
You really do not have a clue. Please define your version of neglect and abuse? DFCS will tell you that every juvenile court judge in this state will look at the following: Is the child feed? Does the child have clothes? Does the child get some food to eat (if not then put them on FS)? Does the child get a bath at least once every three days? Are there any bad bruises on the child? If all the above is yes then there is no abuse or neglect or put them on a parenting plan to improve. The judges will not remove a child unless it is severe physical abuse (neglect almost never).
The state currently does not have enough Foster Parents to meet the needs of the few children judges do remove. Your plan would do nothing more than create a bigger log jam and waste a great deal of the time and resources of teachers and school officials because even if you found your neglect nothing would be done on the judges level.
gamom
April 1st, 2011
1:42 pm
td – can’t you all partner with CASA somehow?
gamom
April 1st, 2011
1:45 pm
I know there are too many cuts going – I don’t agree with them either. And I know if you push for assessment, you won’t get it – my goodness – cry to the rooftops then, but for godsakes – stop blaming the kids. They are the ones being short changed. And as you guys get further frustrated – the numbers of beatings have gone up over the last 2 years. The data is available – that isn’t working either!!! None of you see the point whatsover – I do have a clue – you’re in a tough spot, but you have got to partner up with every agency available to you to get these kids in the right direction. Parents – who often don’t know their rights – need to school themselves as well. You can’t be a parent and sign some stupid form to allow an administrator to beat the kid. Stand up and say no Teachers. That is not appropriate and you all know it!
Economics Teacher
April 1st, 2011
2:44 pm
Since there are so many antedotes on here about being paddled in school as a child, I’ll share mine.
In the second grade I got paddled every single day for not doing my homework. The reason that I never did my homework is because my father was an abusive alcoholic and our evenings were spent being terrorized by him.
You would think after a few days of paddling, the teacher would have thought “wait a minute, this isn’t working, it isn’t making her do her homework, maybe I should try something else.” Nope, she never did. She paddled me ever single day of that school year. It was humiliating and it didn’t work!
I’m very surprised at the amount of support for corporal punishment in schools. I would never hit my child and I don’t expect anyone else to either. My child has never been spanked and she is a very respectful and good student.
Me
April 1st, 2011
3:43 pm
CASA?? I knew it knew it knew it!!
No wonder we’re going in a circle…..
Tell me gamom, are you part of the CASA program?
gamom
April 1st, 2011
5:27 pm
Me – i am not part of the CASA program. I am just a regular nobody, with no power but very annoyed that I have to encounter teachers that think that hitting kids is acceptable in this day and age and I want it stopped. Now. I should be able to relocate to any place in Georgia that I want to and send my children to a safe non-hostile learning environment. I shouldn’t have to place my children anywhere near a school where they would know their peers were getting hit. That’s the same as playing violent video games in my book, because it doesn’t work and often leads to more aggressive kids – whether in school or outside the school in the neighborhood. It makes kids better liars too, so they don’t get caught doing anything wrong. It simply disgusts me the of support for this abusive tactic schools use. It’s total hypocrisy.
Economics Teacher – I too have not, will not nor ever will hit my children because I believe that cycles of abuse need to be broken and not continued generation after generation simply because – it was a common practice and everybody does it. My kids are respectful, honor students, involved in their community and one is about to graduate college.
td
April 1st, 2011
5:28 pm
gamom
April 1st, 2011
1:42 pm
td – can’t you all partner with CASA somehow?
CASA is part of the Juvenile court system and still has to answer to the Judge. They are a waste really a big waste of time and have nothing to do with recruiting foster parents. If you really want to do something then become a foster parent, recruit more foster parents and spread the word to all your family and friends to become foster parents.
gamom
April 1st, 2011
5:35 pm
td – I personally know foster parents and CASA workers – you would be wrong on your assertion that they are a waste of time. That is your opinion, but not accurate
td
April 1st, 2011
6:14 pm
gamom
April 1st, 2011
5:35 pm
td – I personally know foster parents and CASA workers – you would be wrong on your assertion that they are a waste of time. That is your opinion, but not accurate
I did not say anything about foster parents. They need a special place in heaven saved for them. I said CASA is a waste of time in the same way that GALS (guardian as litums) in the family court system is a waste of time, money and effort. The judges have all the power and make all the decisions. The CASA worker learns real fast what the Juvenile court judge expects and they come up with their solution to the problem to match the judges opinion 99% of the time.
gamom
April 1st, 2011
6:16 pm
TD – on another note – guess what April is Child Abuse Prevention Month… Wouldn’t it be so spectacular if all you teachers denounce corporal punishment in Georgia schools and speak out against for the entire month. Come on try it… I dare ya.
Maureen Downey
April 1st, 2011
6:17 pm
@td, I have to disagree about CASA volunteers, having written about several of them. One CASA was able to track down the father of three kids adrift in foster care, get him involved and regular visitation, which eventually led to him taking his kids. The man lived out of state. (The mom had died.)
I have seen CASA volunteers do wonderful things for kids.
Maureen
Lisa B.
April 1st, 2011
6:23 pm
In a perfect, well-funded world, high-quality alternative schools are the answer. I’ve seen fabulous programs designed to accelerate students so they can catch up with their peers if needed, and packed with loads of couseling. I’ve even seen programs like this survive 2-3 years before death by the budget axe. It’s to bad, really. Everyone knows that investing in children and teens is expensive, but saves billions in crime and prison costs later. Still, the funding ends.
Me
April 1st, 2011
8:38 pm
@Maureen, Speaking only for myself, I have had nothing but sadly ridiculous experiences with CASA folks. It’s nice to hear that there are some that are doing good out there, but I haven’t met one yet.
long time educator
April 1st, 2011
10:12 pm
gamom,
If everyone else is trying to tell you that you are clueless about the current state of public education, then maybe it would behoove you to consider that you just might possibly be ………clueless. I am serious; try subbing before offering silly platitudes. Teachers are in the trenches and have long ago tried anything and everything they can think of. Try subbing and you will see how naive you are.
clueless one
April 1st, 2011
11:30 pm
yeah … whatever you say