Corporal punishment: Why are we still hitting students in schools?
As a former writer on family issues, I was always taken aback when parents and schools espoused a multi-vitamin view of physical punishment, telling me that children needed a whack now and then to grow up big and strong.
I’ve been a longtime advocate of barring schools from using corporal punishment. With all the attention around the abuse of children , it stuns me that we allow adults to legally strike students.
Only 20 states, including Georgia, still permit paddling in their schools, but that is changing.
Some dedicated parents in Georgia are attempting to impose a ban here, but the Legislature has adopted a hands-off attitude, enabling local school districts to decide for themselves whether to paddle. Most metro districts eschew physical discipline, but it does go on, especially in rural Georgia.
While there are obvious educational, moral and psychological problems with paddles that ought to compel districts to retire them, there’s also the threat of lawsuits. It’s surprising that school systems would continue a practice that is such a legal minefield.
I am on several e-mail lists and get a lot of daily updates on the national effort to end corporal punishment, which is most common in Southern schools. I am happy to report that the campaign is gaining momentum even in states that have revered the paddle.
The New York Times took up the topic this week.
Among the comments in the story:
When Tyler Anastopoulos got in trouble for skipping detention at his high school recently, he received the same punishment that students in parts of rural Texas have been getting for generations.
Tyler, an 11th grader from Wichita Falls, was sent to the assistant principal and given three swift swats to the backside with a paddle, recalled Angie Herring, his mother. The blows were so severe that they caused deep bruises, and Tyler wound up in the hospital, Ms. Herring said.
While the image of the high school principal patrolling the halls with paddle in hand is largely of the past, corporal punishment is still alive in 20 states, according to the Center for Effective Discipline, which tracks its use in schools around the country and encourages its end. Most of those states are in the South, where paddling remains ingrained in the social and family fabric of some communities.
Each year, prodded by child safety advocates, state legislatures debate whether corporal punishment amounts to an archaic form of child abuse or an effective means of discipline.
This month, Tyler, who attends City View Junior/Senior High School, told his story to lawmakers in Texas, which is considering a ban on corporal punishment. The same week, legislators in New Mexico voted to end the practice there.
Texas schools, Ms. Herring fumed, appear to have free rein in disciplining a student, “as long as you don’t kill him.”
“If I did that to my son,” she said, “I’d go to jail.”
Up until about 25 years ago, corporal punishment in public schools could be found in all but a handful of states, said Nadine Block, the founder of the Center for Effective Discipline. Prompted by the threat of lawsuits and research that questioned its effectiveness, states gradually started banning the practice.
According to estimates by the federal Department of Education, 223,190 children were subjected to corporal punishment in the 2005-6 school year. That was a nearly 20 percent drop from a few years earlier, Ms. Block said.
In Texas, at least 27 of about 1,000 school districts still use corporal punishment, said Jimmy Dunne, the founder and president of another group that is against the practice, People Opposed to Paddling Students.
In New Mexico — where more than a third of the school districts permit corporal punishment, according to a local children’s legal services group — legislators approved a paddling ban this month. Gov. Susana Martinez, a Republican, has not indicated whether she will sign the bill.
Opponents of the measure, like State Senator Vernon D. Asbill, worried that a ban would tie teachers’ hands and make it harder for them to control students. “With parental supervision and parental approval, I believe it’s appropriate,” said Mr. Asbill, a Republican and a longtime teacher and school administrator from Carlsbad. “The threat of it keeps many of our kids in line so they can learn.”
But State Senator Cynthia Nava, a Democrat and a school superintendent from Las Cruces who supports the ban, said schools were no place for violence of any sort. “It’s shocking to me that people got up on the floor and argued passionately to preserve it,” she said of corporal punishment. “We should be educating kids that they can’t solve problems with violence.”
Calls to end corporal punishment have gotten louder of late, even in states unlikely to pass a ban. In Mississippi, the family of a teenager who was paddled in school has filed a federal lawsuit. The suit, filed against the Tate County School District, claims that corporal punishment is unconstitutional because it is applied disproportionately to boys.
The teenager’s lawyer, Joe Murray, is also representing the family of another student who was paddled at the same high school this month. In that case, the boy was struck so hard that he passed out and broke his jaw, Mr. Murray said.
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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197 comments Add your comment
Goes too far
March 30th, 2011
3:38 pm
When I was in high school, we thought the “licks” were far better than having to serve detention and everyone always chose that route. The paddling was over in seconds while detention was after school for an hour for five days. The detention hurt far worse and was more effective than paddling could ever be. Detention is a better deterrent in my opinion (whether or not corporal punishment is appropriate)..
Elizabeth
March 30th, 2011
3:38 pm
I would really like to believe that paddling ( used judiciously and with restraint) can “cause kids to become more agressive”. However, from my experience in school in the 50’s and 60’s and my experience with teaching from 1970 to now, I do not see that as as being true. Kids are ten thousasnd times more aggressive and more impervious to the the “discipline” ( or lack of) that we give them today than they ever were in earlier times. We knew that if got in trouble, we would be paddled, up until about the age of 13. It was not as effective with older kids but the EMBARRASSMENT was a deterrent.
Nothing is an effective deterrent for today’s kids. Would paddling help? I don’t know, but I am desperate enough to want to try it– to try anything that would make these kids realize that they are CHILDREN and do not have the power to defy adults, to be disrespectful and disruptive every minute of every day, and fear no consequences because they know there are none.
For those who decry “old fashioned” teaching methods– guess what? I use them and they still work best. And my students’ CRCT scores prove it. What we are doing today ( or NOT doing today) is not working. It is time to try something else– like old fashioned discipline that makes kids behave and therefore be ready to learn, not disrupt. It can’t get much worse. Why don’t we try it?
Archie@Arkham Asylum
March 30th, 2011
3:45 pm
During the first decade of the roller coaster ride that was my teaching career, I was assigned to a high school in South Georgia ( a.k.a. “Pine Tree Alley”). The school system there practiced corporal punishment and as far as I know, they still do. As I came to see it, corporal punishment may have had some effect on the Elementary School kids. However, you had to hope (pray, even) that somewhere, sometime, somehow, between pre-K and ninth grade, those kids developed a “moral compass” ( a sense of right and wrong). I witnessed many “boardings” at the high school and a lot of them were “repeaters.” The only result of these paddlings seemed to be that the principal had a very sore arm certain days of the week. ( I couldn’t help but notice the “large economy size” bottle of extra-strength Tylenol on his desk.) The kids (boys and girls) actually preferred to get paddled because it was all over with quickly and didn’t drag on for days like ISS. ( ISS was new at that time and actually had some “teeth” in it.) For corporal punishment to be effective for a student with no “moral compass,” corporal punishment would have to be delivered at a level where the possibility of serious injury is more likely than not. I can’t help but notice a lot of today’s teens obviously did not develop a “moral compass” during their younger years and are in effect, “sociopaths in the making.” Something needs to be done to restore order to restore order in the schools but short of the Army and/or Marine Corps taking them over and running them I don’t know what.
Ole Guy
March 30th, 2011
3:52 pm
OK, so everyone seems upset over the fact that kids are no sense of consequence…no FEAR, repeat FEAR…that errant behavior will lead to unpleasantry. Unfortunately, there will always be hardheads who don’t think very well; wo do no/will/not/cannoy reason. Historically, ever since man walked upon terra firma, that fear was introduced by way of corporal punishment. This methodology, unpleasant as it may be for ALL concerned, has been in existence for a long long time…and it seems to have worked. FEAR is the raw, uncut side of DISCIPLINE; without a health level of fear, discipline will not evolve.
Now would someone please explain just WHY, all of a sudden, we have a generation which is beyond the traditional means of maintaining control; of introducing the beginnings of DISCIPLINE? And let’s not hear some bs hogwash about inflicting psycic pain and confusion.
This is exactly why we see the beginnings of the downfall of civilization… generation(s) which knows not of consequence, discipline, self control, the appropriate behaviors in our civilization, and the raw FEAR that piss poor decisions WILL lead to no good. Go ahead, explain!
@elizabeth
March 30th, 2011
3:55 pm
You would never be allowed to lay a finger on my child. I am the parent, I dole out the discipline. I also am the one and only advocate and protector of my child from harm. All this 3rd party hitting – and those advocating that it is a good thing – I find odd, strange, and downright scarey. The number of Georgia kids getting punished this way is in the thousands. The data is readily available from the GA doe. Frustrated, angry, burnt out teachers need not have that kind of power. How many of you pro-hitters would take a wooden board to your pet? How many of you would likek to get hit by a superior for a not reaching a deadline. How many of you would hit your spouse for not complying with your wishes? probably none. Teachers that hit children are incompetent, plain and simple
Me
March 30th, 2011
4:01 pm
To those that oppose corporal punishment b/c it is inhumane, cruel, and psychologically damaging:
Please post a step by step plan of ACTION that would be appropriate and EFFECTIVE to deter a typical teenager from the destructive and disrespectful behavior that we hear about every single day.
And please don’t insult us with “the parents….” statement as we all know that the parents aren’t in the classroom or in the principals office where the behavior occurs.
Don’t make me call John Quinones…..
I’m very serious, What would YOU do with the repeat offender kids that we’re discussing here?
td
March 30th, 2011
4:03 pm
Ole Guy
March 30th, 2011
3:52 pm
Excellent comments. I have said all along that we should go out a get retired drill sergent’s and put them in charge of discipline in our middle and high schools.
Me
March 30th, 2011
4:05 pm
Just for the record, if my dog bit me, spit on me, called me ugly names and laughed in my face over his disrepectful act of peeing in the floor, I sure as h*ll would hit him back!
@ Me
March 30th, 2011
4:08 pm
At Me – why don’t you ask the states of Connecticut, New Jersey, Virginia how they do it. The answers are in your own profession. 30 states do it without hitting. And those educators and administrators that testified to that fact in front of the Rep McCarthy’s subcommittee – had excellent suggestions that worked in their school. Please look it up. The testimony is there for the taking. They are the professionals that testified to what works – and it wasn’t hitting or physical punishment in any way. GEESH. I am a parent and know this stuff – how come the educators don’t?
td
March 30th, 2011
4:08 pm
@elizabeth
March 30th, 2011
3:55 pm
You would never be allowed to lay a finger on my child. I am the parent, I dole out the discipline.
Great that makes you totally responsible for your child’s behavior in public (school setting). What should we do if your child does not behave? Maybe we should be allowed to paddle you for not making your child behave? How about a nice big fat fine? Saturday school?
There has to be a way to have discipline in the school. If not then your actions of not making your child behave effects my child’s learning and my neighbors child’s learning and that is not acceptable.
Tokyo Toto
March 30th, 2011
4:26 pm
Life can be cruel….
“As the new school year starts, local children will have to transfer to schools in their places of refuge. Everyone has lost everything — their home, their job, their school, their friends, their families. Who could stand this reality? I would beg you to share this reality with people inside and outside the company.”
http://blogs.wsj.com/japanrealtime/2011/03/28/letters-from-fukushima-tepco-worker-emails/
gamom
March 30th, 2011
4:33 pm
i am all for discipline!!! But not for hitting. I don’t know how I can be clearer than that. Discipline – to teach, from the word disciple. Of course the need is there for discipline, consequences and consistency. All of these things work without hitting.
ScienceTeacher671
March 30th, 2011
4:36 pm
When my youngest son was in kindergarten, the teacher had a particularly long set of consequences ending up with a spanking in the principal’s office. Said son particularly liked being “banished” to a different classroom where they did worksheets and coloring sheets, which was perhaps the 5th or 6th consequence on the disciplinary ladder. I told the teacher to make getting sent to the principal’s office for a spanking my child’s 2nd consequence rather than the 7th or 8th level. Bingo! Behavior problems ceased. He knew how to behave, but he had also very quickly figured out how to “play the system”. The teacher never did have to send him to the principal.
By the way, I didn’t spank him at home, other than a few “hand swats” when he was a toddler. Taking away privileges was much more effective at home.
Currently, for many students, we have too many loopholes and too few consequences that matter to them.
drew (former teacher)
March 30th, 2011
4:39 pm
@elizabeth says:
“How many of you pro-hitters would take a wooden board to your pet?”
I prefer to use a rolled-up newspaper for my pet…call me a traditionalist! But I’d use a board if I had to…one of the most important things I learned as a teacher is the importance of flexibility.
“How many of you would like to get hit by a superior for a not reaching a deadline.”?
Well, in all honesty, I probably wouldn’t like it, but I bet I’d meet my next deadline!
“How many of you would hit your spouse for not complying with your wishes?”
If I hit my spouse everytime she refused to comply with my wishes, without a doubt, one of us would be dead by now.
gamom
March 30th, 2011
4:41 pm
consequences are a good thing science teacher. Why do the pro-hitters – as you see here from the myriad of posts – think that hitting is going to get some point across to say a sixth grader, a seventh grader or 8th grader. I personally do a thing at home and I take away ALL electronics and friends.. basically shut them off from the free world plus give some extra chores. If a teacher is having a problem with my kid – they are to call me immediately, by the time I implement my consequences, they would have rather be smacked by a teacher
HS Math Teacher
March 30th, 2011
4:43 pm
I don’t have a problem with my Son getting his butt busted if he gets out of control, or disrespects his Teachers. He doesn’t get in trouble of this kind because he’s had his butt busted enough growing up, and he knew from an early age that if you want to dance, you’ve got to pay the fiddler.
We have way too many Fatherless kids, and unfortunately, many of them don’t know the boundaries of proper behavior. Also, we have brats and smartasses who have Fathers; however, they are disengaged, and have let the little piss-weeds talk back and smart-off to them. Now, us Teachers have to deal with these little sociopaths.
I agree with someone earlier who said that we should not spare the paddle from 6th grade on down. I’d say 8th grade on down.
Me
March 30th, 2011
4:45 pm
@Elizabeth/@ Me poster: You assumed I’m a teacher or in education? I’m not. I’m a RN with a 12 year old in Clayton Co Schools. I’ve never received a call from school regarding my son’s behavior and I’m betting that I never will. If I do, I would PREFER to punish him myself, but as each situation is unique I expect him to be disciplined as needed, based on the facts. This argument is much larger than who can and can not spank my child. It’s about hamstringing the professionals we entrust our kids education (AKA their FUTURE) to. If teachers were able to handle their problem kids as problems arise, we might not even be talking about corporal punishment at all. I’m going to make another huge leap and say I bet the states of Conn, NJ and VA haven’t handicapped their educators to the point that they are powerless.
But still, in the State (GA) and the state (unchecked chaos) that we are in, I’d like to know how YOU would keep order and provide a positive learning environment in a classroom with 4 or 5 little Johnny’s acting out at the same time?
Richard Lewis
March 30th, 2011
4:55 pm
I HAD A MAN TEACHER WHIN IWAS IN THE ..8.th GRADE THAT ONLY PADDLED GIRLDS NEVER BOYS WE COULD DO ENYTHING WE WANT TO AND NOT GET INTO TROBLE!!!!!!! NOT FAIR!!!!THE TEACHER WAS A BIG WIMP!!!! HE WAS AFRAID OF BOYS… FR5OM 5th ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ole Guy
March 30th, 2011
4:58 pm
Gamom, yours appears to be a world residing on the ideal plane, a good place to be in a utopian society where everyone is on the same sheet of music, sings songs of brotherhood and unity…and the skys are not cloudy all day. Good luck!
TD, it is gratifying to see that my “old school” thoughts are still alive and well…thanks for your comment.
Listen up, people…if you want to continue to pretend that the good fairy of protocol exists within us all, such as Gamom seems to feel…well and good. YOU will have the privilege of paying the price in terms of your kids growing into a world completely devoid of social structure, dictum or decorum. YOUR kids will become adults who feel no need to adhere to the rules of society and the social pillars which, until recent years, made our civilization the envy of the world. If YOU wish to continue rubbing your kids’ fannys, allowing them free reign to do whatever moves their desires, fine. YOU, I have little doubt, are completely devoid of the very same social discipline required for good order. When YOUR kids, and quite possibly, YOU, experience difficulties in terms of an inability to adapt to the current demands of this crazy world, simply because YOU never saw the need to embrace FEAR as a social survival tool…DO NOT expect help from that utopian society you seem to think exists.
@Me
March 30th, 2011
5:04 pm
You are aware of the National Association of School Nurses and that 30 states teach just fine with taking a wooden board to a child. Wooden Boards can injure – you being a nurse could probably understand that. If you took a wooden board to your child in say a store, you’d have the authorities after you. My kids haven’t had any behavior issues either – never had to hit them once. I use consistent consequences. I suggest that if a teacher doesn’t have the skills to handle 4 or 5 little johnnies in terms of classroom management, then they don’t deserve a paycheck funded by me. I am quite certain you don’t hit your patients when they forget to take their insulin.
@Me
March 30th, 2011
5:05 pm
oops – without taking a wooden board to a child. the NASN has a position statement on their website urging lawmakers to stop this nonsense
@@HS Math Teacher
March 30th, 2011
5:09 pm
OMGoodness what if said 12 or 13 yr old is pregnant and you hit the kid with a wooden board.
I would particularly like to hear from the Nurse – are these school officials going to check to see if a student is pregnant before they get struck? We all know that teen pregnancy is a problem and even some girls as young as 11 can become pregnant
gamom
March 30th, 2011
5:14 pm
To Me – what if your child or someone elses child has an unknown medical condition – say a bleeding disorder or a musculoskeletal disorder that is underlying – those kids don’t deserve to be hit with a wooden board.
Me
March 30th, 2011
5:28 pm
Utopian Moms can ‘what if’ all day long….what this is about is the freedom to discipline a child appropriately. APPROPRIATELY. I wouldn’t paddle an adult for not taking his.her insulin b/c they’re ADULTS, therefore they are the ones that pay the price if they misbehave. Do you really think a child is to be given adult privileges without consequences? Ever heard “the tail wagging the dog?”
I’m afraid you’ll feel the pain when your little Johnny’s get big (they’ve been adults seen childhood right?) and wind up on “disability” or TANF , have lots of babies and babies mama’s and live at home until you pass away and leave them the house. They’ll always be the victim, always be the one that was ‘wronged’, and therefore will always need their Utopian Moms to care for them and tell them it’s going to be all right.
The positive productive members of society aren’t the kids that were raised to believe that they could act any way they see fit b/c their mama’s told them they were special and never had their feelings hurt.
gamom
March 30th, 2011
5:34 pm
So you would disregard all the position statements of medical doctors organizations as well as professional organizations. You do know that if any child is injured at the hands of an educator and you’ve given them permission for this kind of punishment, you give up your rights as a parent. There is no legal redress. You still really didn’t answer the question, you believe children – and many children do have many medical problems – that they deserve to be hit with a wooden board. Really? This is not just about my kids? What if any child has been abused at home already, it’s alright with you that the people a child may trust is an educator – it’s alright then by your standard for the teacher to hit the already abused children. I assure you I already have an adult child and he is a productive member of society. Getting ready to graduate college – with honors.
gamom
March 30th, 2011
5:36 pm
And you as a nurse are alright for young girls – say the agee of 12 or 13 – old enough to possibly be pregnant – to get struck? You know what the teen pregnancy rate is in Georgia? I would suggest the school runs a pregnancy test before each time they paddle a kid. You are totally disregarding what the Academy of Pediatrics says and the the National Association of School Nurses and the AMA? And you’re a nurse….OK then.
fultonschoolsparent
March 30th, 2011
5:41 pm
So we can beat children because we’re bigger and have all the power. What do you think is going to happen when we’re old and they’re bigger and have all the power? Violence begets violence and that’s the message you are sending with paddling. Watch out – you’re getting older!
Dr. Craig Spinks/ Augusta
March 30th, 2011
5:42 pm
Am waiting for teachers and subs to post videos of the disrespectful and/or disruptive behaviors of those students for whom modeling, positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, response cost, extinguishment et al. have proven unsatisfactory over time in the elimination of their severe misbehaviors.
Some student misbehaviors are so incredible that they demand visual and auditory documentations of their existence.
gamom
March 30th, 2011
5:44 pm
Let’s just go through a list of common ailments children may have
Asthma
Autism
Obesity
Diabetes
Food Allergies
Cardiac Problems
Developmental Delays
OCD
ADHD
Pregnancy
Physical – old or healed from previous abuse at home
Cystic Fibrosis
Seizure Disorder
Muscular Skeletal deformities
Genetic disorders/Bleeding Disorders
Scoliosis (oh yes my daughter has this one – lay a finger on her backside – and the teacher would be in big trouble) No thanks to anyone but me, discovered the scoliosis.
This is just a really short list of the complicated scenarios a hitting teacher could encounter. People are incredibly foolish to think this is ok.
On the average in any given population of a school upwards of 20 to 30% of students have a medical problem.
gamom
March 30th, 2011
5:52 pm
Also, just a small fact that might have escaped your logic. I think the latest stats for Autism now is 1 in 110 kids have a form of Autism. And the number is escalating. This is now considered nearly epidemic. The chances for teachers to encounter autistic spectrum children in their regular classroom (not self-contained) has increased exponentially over a few years. And the data shows that children with disabilities in GEORGIA are being beaten disproportionately MORE OFTEN THAN OTHER SUBGROUPS. Are you ok with that too?
A Conservative Voice
March 30th, 2011
5:57 pm
Great story, Earl, and welcome back……I remember Roosevelt High School very well…..beautiful school…..what’s it being used for now? a jail?
HS Math Teacher
March 30th, 2011
6:02 pm
To the poster who is concerned about pregnant students getting paddled (responding to my original post), I said that I’m in favor of using the paddle from the 8th grade downward. I don’t think there would be many girls in these grades who would fit in that category. If I was an administrator, I would relegate the paddling of girls to a female administrator.
I don’t think paddling is the panacea for all ills we are facing. However, I do believe that paddling of young errant kids not only provides heat for the seat, but also induces a “shock” to their senses, and brings a little bit of shame on them. I was whipped at home, and paddled many times up until high school, and I believe it kept me straight. Growing up, I knew who the boss was.
Patricia - 34 year Veteran
March 30th, 2011
6:04 pm
I believe corporal punishment has its place in the scheme of things. I am not sure how effective it would be in a high school setting. I remember the last time I paddled a child which was in the early 80s. Two sixth grade boys thought it was just the funniest thing in the world to pick up a smaller boy in their grade level and stuff him into one of the large trash cans in the boys room keeping him from getting out. I heard him yelling and zoomed right into that room to be greeted with that unbelivable site. Both of them got three whacks from me with the principal’s paddle in her office as well as a good strong talking to. I paddled less than ten kids during my first five years of teaching. Everyone of them learned not to repeat their disruptive or bullying behavior anywhere I could be found. Did I beat them? NO! Did it hurt? Sure! Did it embarrass them. I think it might have and not one parent complained.
Patricia - 34 year Veteran
March 30th, 2011
6:05 pm
Ok, Ok, “sight” not “site”…
gamom
March 30th, 2011
6:06 pm
@HS math teacher – years ago, i worked on a maternity ward – you’d be surprised how young the girls are that are pregnant. And you’d be surprised how many of them there are. the fact is you simply DON’T know who is and who is not pregnant. or who is and is not having female issues… such as endometriosis. Look that one up. You have any idea the pain involved with that condition???
gamom
March 30th, 2011
6:15 pm
such hypocrisy – what are you teaching girls when you strike them? What are you educators teaching any child by hitting? REally? Yeah yeah yeah- the redundancy of the answers is entirely predictable – This is not the 80’s. I sure hoped we’d know better in 2011. Educators that hit kids in 2011 are incompetent, because we know better now, mountains of research says its bad – especially My Golly from a third party. Adults are supposed to lead by example.
Wondering
March 30th, 2011
6:19 pm
PRINCIPAL: Mrs. Smith, this is Joe Jones, principal of Main Street (Elementary/Middle/High) School. Your son/daughter was disruptive and rude in Mr/Ms Brown’s class. You need to come pick him/her up as soon as possible.
MRS. SMITH: But I’m at work.
PRINCIPAL: We will hold him/her for 45 minutes. After that time, he/she will be in the custody of juvenile authorities, and you may pick him up (at a designated location).
Wondering…How many times would it take?
How many times would it take before Johnny/Suzie learned how to behave?
gamom
March 30th, 2011
6:24 pm
Folks – home school and advocate for school choice – it’s hopeless
Me
March 30th, 2011
7:02 pm
gamom…you have spent much time and energy listing all possible scenarios for what could go wrong with a child in and out of school. What you failed to take note of was the word APPROPRIATE. I don’t believe I’ve stated anywhere on this blog that spanking a high school student, or middle school for that matter, is appropriate. Discipline starts young and I’ve heard more than once that the biggest influence on a child’s future behavior is the primary school experience.
At some point you have to come out of the “what if” bubble and experience the real world. Yes there are many health issues that children face, but do you teach them starting in kindergarten that any medical issue present means that they don’t have to worry about learning right or wrong? Or that the rules don’t apply to them?
I’m very curious what kind of experience you’ve had that makes you so wholeheartedly submit to anything that’s purported in any journal or by any organization. They’re the professionals, so they know what’s best? Really? Does the AAP raise your children for you? You DO know that there is MUCH MUCH political influence involved in most position statements right? I’ve worked with enough physicians to know, FOR A FACT, that more than a few don’t truly believe in the “accepted” protocols for treatment of common illness/diseases.
And last, but not least, if you have worked in a “maternity ward” as a nurse, for any length of time, I wouldn’t have to school you on the realities of life. But here it is anyway: Life is hard. If you’re not harder, life wins and you lose.
gamom
March 30th, 2011
7:44 pm
And I never said NO to discipline. You have made much assumptions about me and the way I parent. I am speaking from a personal experience that this beating of children absolutely does not work. I remember the nightmare of what I would call school – watching the same kids get beat over and over again in primary school. I have no idea whatever happened to them – but they were not helped and some were definitly troubled after the ’school’ got hold of them. You want to parent with an iron fist – that’s just fine, go ahead – whatever works for you. But I will tell you both from a personal and professional standpoint, you can’t have teachers beating on children whatsoever. It’s unconstitutional, because the parent has no legal redress IF an injury does occur. And being an RN – you are I am sure a mandated reporter of abuse, as are teachers. Teachers will not report abuse even IF a paddling goes overboard, because it’s a matter of policy that they are to keep their mouth shut. I suggest you readd a couple of reports, studies from a wide range of sources that are peer reviewed not only by md’s and nurses, but by attorneys as well. It is unconstitutional. The fact remains that in Georgia – your beloved state – they are beating kids in middle and high school with wooden boards. It’s been widely reported in the AJC, Gainesville Times, Augusta Chronicle and countless other Georgia publications. At what age does it stop, you going to only allow elementary kids to get beaten – by whom? How often, for what infractions pray tell. A friend of mine’s child was beaten for failing a test. Come on now? Where does the line get drawn between discipline and abuse? I for one would not leave it up to burnt out teachers or nurses for that matter.
sloboffthestreet
March 30th, 2011
8:29 pm
Must go long with that dang found nu teknolg. What a bunch of redneck hillbillies!
Tech School Instructor
March 30th, 2011
9:26 pm
The new techican college quarter started five days ago. Today, I dropped 22 students who failed to follow the rules. I will drop four more students tomorrow for failure to comply. Somehow these students arrive in post-secondary ADULT school with no clue about how to follow rules. Personally, I think intelligence isn’t the problem. Kids need home training. That’s the job of parents. Schools are here to educate. K-12 HAS to enforce rules. Upper education and the work force just kicks them out if the can’t comply to rules. Kids must learn self-discipline, and a good, hard paddling helped me see the light in my youth.
Tech School Instructor
March 30th, 2011
9:27 pm
“Technical College”
South Georgia Teacher
March 30th, 2011
9:32 pm
gamom, children in my school are seldom paddled over and over. Paddling is a consequence that occurs once or twice before the next level of consequence occurs; usually suspension. Paddling is a step to avoid sending the student home. Parents must provide signed permission for corporal punishment. Most students who reach the level of consequences of corporal punishment straighten up. They also get to stay at school. Suspension is a lose-all situation for the school and for the students. As I said, it works for us.
Me
March 30th, 2011
9:35 pm
So what I’m hearing you say ist: You had a traumatic experience as a child, You feel strongly against corporal punishment, you don’t care for my “beloved” Georgia, and just as you will never see things from my perspective, I won’t see the world through yours. You believe that ALL corporal punishment is bad in every way, shape and form. I believe it has it’s place in the big picture that is discipline. Did I leave anything out? And please, remember to use your ” I feel ” statements so as to not alienate others. Make good choices and use your indoor voice. Later we’ll discuss the benefits and drawbacks of excessive use of melodrama to make a point.
Interesting Reality
March 30th, 2011
9:40 pm
@ Wondering – LOVE IT!!!
Tokyo Toto: Playin' the harp
March 30th, 2011
9:42 pm
Hmmm. Something special about 10km…..
“The earthquake occurred at a depth of 10 km and the United States Geological Survey recorded a series of aftershocks, ten of them above magnitude 5, including two measuring 5.9 and 5.5.”
http://www.sciencebase.com/2010-haiti-earthquake.html
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1406579/pg1
http://modernsurvivalblog.com/earthquakes/odd-10-km-depth-aftershocks-of-7-4-earthquake-japan/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pch4QtJFz24&feature=related
Independent
March 30th, 2011
9:44 pm
Wondering – you have a great idea there. It probably would work great. But it probably can’t be implemented due to some law that says you can’t call the juvenile authorities for just being disruptive – so what is the next step?
Dr. John Trotter
March 30th, 2011
9:52 pm
@ APS teacher: No, “Georgia Coach” didn’t lose any hearing. He is still teaching in DeKalb. In fact, he is very talented, and was once a STAR Teacher himself. He’s had this feud with me and MACE for a long time. For years, he adored MACE and could not heap enough accolades upon MACE. But, I would not let him pimp MACE for his personal gain. He’s spoiled. An only child. Likes to get his way. Throws temper tantrums. I guess I am supposed to be afraid of this…or of his endless anonymous criticisms of MACE…ad infinitum. Whatever he says about MACE, in a weird way I sort of appreciate the attention shown because it seems to help us. People just keep coming.
As I said earlier today, you can’t hide success. People hear about us and how hard we work for teachers, and they respond. I have had teachers actually tell me that when they first heard about MACE and saw our website, tears actually rolled down their cheeks. They realized that they were no longer alone, that there was some group which actually feels their pain (Clintonesque, eh?) and can identify with what they are going through. At MACE, we are passionate about protecting and empowering classroom educators…one member at a time. This week alone, I have had two teachers (one in DeKalb and a lady from Atlanta tonight) tell me that when their principals found out that they were now members of MACE that they started treating them much differently…nicer and more professionally. It is stories like theirs which reverberate throughout the teaching community. As I was leaving the office tonight, I met another teaching in our waiting room (she had an appointment with Mr. Norreese Haynes). I asked her where she taught. She told me, and I remembered that I had recently written a letter for a gentleman at her DeKalb high school. She immediately told me that it was this gentleman and another MACE member at her school who referred her to MACE. MACE gets most of its members from the recommendation of satisfied and happy members.
Now about ole “Georgia Coach”: He loves to operate anonymously on this blog. Great. No one has to use his or her real name. (I have cousins like Earl of Ft. Liquordale who occasionally show up on this blog.) It is so easy to buy online a cheap program which will hide your IP address and give you thousands of options each time you blog. (Just Google it.) I purchased one. I think the price is $39.95 for two years. I don’t use it, but I have it. I could blog on here with a Libyan or Swiss or Alabama IP address. But, I just use my real name. To me, it’s more fun using my real name. Plus, I am just vain enough that I want you to know who wrote the marvelous gems. Ha!
http://www.theteachersadvocate.com
Jessica
March 30th, 2011
9:57 pm
While I’m not opposed to corporal punishment in principle, I don’t think it’s appropriate in public schools. I have absolutely no faith that teachers/administrators would make good decisions about when and how to paddle children. I’m sure there are some who would use this option appropriately, but previous discussions on this blog are evidence enough that some educators have very poor judgment.