Roy Barnes: Wrong solutions on HOPE Scholarship
Roy Barnes
I received this note from former Gov. Roy Barnes, who granted me permission to share it although he was aware that critics would jump in and accuse him of sour grapes or worse
As the first generation in my family to attend college, I share Barnes’ concern that the changes in HOPE will hurt kids who do not come from a family with strong education backgrounds.
I also think the 3.7 GPA to get Full HOPE and the 3.5 to keep it is steep, considering that the average GPA for the students in Georgia Tech’s Honors Program is below 3.5. (The average GPA in the Honors Program at Tech is 3.34 for the Class of 2011 and 3.37 for the Class of 2012. )
Please, be respectful in comments as I am going to be en route to Athens and my editor hates to play traffic cop in my absence.
From the former governor:
A message from exile where grandchildren and cows rule the day. I can’t believe what we have done to HOPE. Did there need to be a change made to HOPE? Without a doubt, but what we are doing is the wrong solution. The answer would have been to go back to the original plan for HOPE. Available to those with a family income of $75k for a single parent and $150k for two parents.
Now, to get the full ride for HOPE you have to have a 3.7 GPA and a 1200 SAT. This favors kids who come from affluent families. As a first generation college graduate I know first generation kids generally score lower on the SAT and that is generally from family circumstances. Children in non college families don’t get exposed early to the breadth of learning as kids from college graduate homes.
My children scored significantly higher on SAT than their mother or me, and their children will score even higher. What we have done is give HOPE to the affluent families who can already afford to send their kids to college, and deprive poorer white and black kids an opportunity to break out. Bad policy.
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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164 comments Add your comment
MomandPop
February 25th, 2011
1:38 pm
So totally agree. The HOPE should be allowing more kids to go to college that otherwise would not be able to.
shaggy
February 25th, 2011
1:41 pm
Gtmom,
That is a great story. Congratulations on a great life, well earned.
Psych Major
February 25th, 2011
1:44 pm
I agree as well. I personally am a college student, approaching my junior year. I work very hard to reach the goal of Hope Scholarship help, paying my own way with loans and working. If this goes through, I will need to take only 12 hours a semester in order to have a chance to attain 3.7. This makes me take at least another year of semesters, and I will be forced to take out thousands more in loans. I think we should increase the requirements for high school students, and over time, slowly increase the requirements for college students. I think that we should need a 3.2 for the full scholarship, and a 3.0 for the scholarship that covers 90% of tuition. My parents earn triple digits, and claim me as their dependent, even though I pay for my college. Income limits are not fair to people like myself, because our parents will make us ineligible. SOMEBODY PLEASE HELP PREVENT THIS FROM GOING THROUGH.
Let Them Eat Cake
February 25th, 2011
2:46 pm
It is too bad that some folks were born to degenerate parents. And, of course, that wasn’t their fault. Nonetheless, the sob (sorry, “inspirational”) stories of some posters are the exception, so it is commendable that they were able to use the aid of others to succeed.
However, I maintain that higher education is a privilege and not a right. I still have a problem paying the tab for students who should not be in college to begin with, and the entitlement (education as a commodity) attitude. It’s a toss up on which government idea blows the most: NCLB or the HOPE scholarship.
Ashley
February 25th, 2011
2:51 pm
My aunt once told me that the math and science books I have are the same books the rich white student has. She said you can open those book up or let them idle on bed. Books unlike people do not see color when they are being read. In other words , being poor is no excuse for not having an education. We should stop blaming our ancestor or parent for their short-coming (education wise that is). I always thought every generation wants more for the next generation. This doesn’t seem to be the case in alot of minority household. Civil- rights leaders from the 50’s and 60’s made it possible for all minorities to get a education and being poor was just a feeble excuse. The HOPE should be about scholastic achievement and not race.
Dr NO
February 25th, 2011
2:59 pm
Roy, you had your chance now go buy some more lipstick.
College isn't easy
February 25th, 2011
3:08 pm
Here is a message to all fellow GT students out there. Stop complaining. @GTmom is right. If an education is what you truly desire, you will find a way to make things work out financially. An extra $8-10,000 in debt should not stop you from choosing a top-ranked engineering college. Sure a 3.5 GPA is near impossible, and even maintaining a 3.0 can be a challenge at times, but your college education is a serious investment in yourself. The 10% that “HOPE Lite” does not cover over the course of 8+ semesters in school can easily be payed back in a year’s time from the high-paying job you will likely be offer on or before graduation. If you want to be debt-free, get an internship or co-op! Just last semester, I made close to $9000. Put off gradaution a semester and work/go to school in the summers and you can easily make nearly $30,000 before you even enter the “real world”.
oldtimer
February 25th, 2011
3:22 pm
GT mom…inspiring, you should be speaking to high school classes in rural GA and other areas. Many here seem to think it is impossible to change your life.
StevenL
February 25th, 2011
3:33 pm
How come no one is questioning why the Georgia Lottery is not funding the HOPE at the 35% level as they are mandated to by law. Lately that rate is a been in the mid 20s. If they were even funding it close to the 35%, which is the norm in many other states, HOPE would be in much better shape and these proposed changes would not have to be as harsh.
Gtmom
February 25th, 2011
3:38 pm
No sob story here. My life turned out great! I got everything I could have wanted and more. I sometimes wonder if I even deserve it. But I do want what I have for others. Not everyone needs to go to college… you are right… but everyone should be given the option..
HOPE springs...
February 25th, 2011
3:41 pm
No I don’t have a big problem with what Gov. Barnes is saying. It’s hard to argue against trying to give a leg up to underpriveleged kids and those from working class families. On the other hand I’m uneasy whenever it’s suggested that public benefits should be means tested.
Bob
February 25th, 2011
3:52 pm
HOPE was never intended to be need-based. The program was supposed to reward our best students and keep them from leaving Georgia for other public and private schools.
Since students needed only good grades to get the money, educators, thinking they were doing kids a favor, have succumbed to terrible grade inflation to make sure all students qualify and much of the HOPE money is used to pay for remedial classes in college for these HOPE “scholars” who are not really college material. Let’s fix this think correctly: Give credit 50% for grades, 50% for SAT/ACT (since these scores cannot be, a, adjusted by Georgia teachers), and let the BEST kids get the money, as was intended.
As far as the whole “class warfare” argument, let me say this: It is not high incomes that get you good SAT scores; it is smart people who value education and work hard that get rich. Many are poor and remain so, generation after generation, because they value some things more than education, hard work and ambition. My wife and I have home-schooled my kids and my oldest is the first to take her SAT; she got a 2200 out of 2400, an awesome score, and she never set foot in a ritzy private school; but, we worked very hard to educate her, and she worked very hard to learn. THAT, my friends, is how it’s done, and students of her caliber should be rewarded.
Dr. Craig Spinks/ Augusta
February 25th, 2011
3:52 pm
Isn’t it in the best interests of The State of Georgia for The HOPE Scholarship to pay for some of our best students to enter and graduate from GT?
Gtmom,
A wonderfully inspirational story!
We all, particularly our kids, could use more inspiration.
Gtmom
February 25th, 2011
3:53 pm
And one more thing… the funding for HOPE was most likely funded by poorer or “those who are lazy”. I know for sure that while my parents did not want me to go to college, every week when they bought their booze, they were buying 30-40 dollars toward lottery tickets. Too bad they didn’t give it to me directly but they did fund my education. So it is a voluntary tax (how I like to think about it). And they put 30-40 dollars in to it that they would have never done on purpose. That was money that didn’t go toward their habits and I had no problem accepting HOPE.
Maybe some of you should live on a deserted island
February 25th, 2011
3:53 pm
Actually as a society we should be helping EVERYONE we possibly can get an education because the more educated people, the better off we all are as a society. A more educated society = a more civil and productive society. More innovation and less crime! When did this country become so “me me me me me”??? No wonder we are all falling so far behind.
Sage
February 25th, 2011
4:04 pm
“It’s hard to argue against trying to give a leg up to underpriveleged kids and those from working class families.”
Those are the very students that have been wasting HOPE! At it’s inception, there should have been a provision to pay back the money you wasted if you were kicked out of college. Then there would have been an incentive to stay in school and get a higher education. When you give to those that have never had, they tend to piss it away. LOL, just look at how money has ruined the lives of many Lottery winners. Throwing money to folks that have never had it in the first place is as good as throwing it away!
Gtmom
February 25th, 2011
4:05 pm
Maybe some – EXACTLY!!!!!!! Go to a country with higher poverty rates and then talk about crime!
And wasn’t it better served to allow me and others to get an education instead of going the route of our parents – “unemployment”… “disability”…”welfare”. My Hubby and I make over $150K a year. To be honest, I would rather HOPE help out others that grew up like me than my privileged children. My children will not be a burden on society (hopefully)…lets help other kids become contributors.
And… there is nothing wrong with technical colleges. I have no problem with HOPE paying for that too. I rather pay 2-4 years for a skill than a lifetime of welfare. Education is going to help us all.
PR rules
February 25th, 2011
4:07 pm
“Actually as a society we should be helping EVERYONE we possibly can get an education because the more educated people, the better off we all are as a society.”
What do you think a K-12 education is for? We can’t force (convince) a certain percentage to even get a GED!
Gtmom
February 25th, 2011
4:10 pm
Ha Sage _ I have seen some very rich kids throw away their education! It is very common for kids at GA Southern to party it up and tell their parents they are still enrolled in school. Their parents still send the money not knowing their precious kids were wasting it. It was very hard for me to see that.
jocelyn
February 25th, 2011
4:13 pm
If you are going to deny that the children of “wealthy” (yet to be defined) parents be denied HOPE, then we should also deny HOPE to those children whose parents are welfare or other types of moochers.
It’s the entitlement crew that largely has ruined our economy, why should they and/or their offspring continue to benefit from it and continue to take.
Sage
February 25th, 2011
4:16 pm
“I have seen some very rich kids throw away their education!”
I am sure that happens, but the percentage is most often smaller. They should be obligated to pay back what they have wasted too!
L_O
February 25th, 2011
5:13 pm
lol @ all of the people guessing at how PELL and HOPE work. Stop commenting on stuff you don’t have experience with. It’s easy to judge from the outside looking in.
Mr. Barnes is correct.
c v n
February 25th, 2011
5:34 pm
I agree with Roy Barnes. I believe that the HOPE Scholarship needs to go back to it’s intended parties, the children who NEED assistance with college tuition. Not the “more fotunate” kids with high income parents. Put a phase-out in effect, one that if you make over, say $150,000/year, you start losing some of the scholarship.
LMAO
February 25th, 2011
5:44 pm
“one that if you make over, say $150,000/year, you start losing some of the scholarship.”
$150K is not rich! Heck, $250K is not rich!
No Teacher Left Behind
February 25th, 2011
6:07 pm
LMAO, you are right, those amounts are not rich, but at a higher incomer bracket–thowever, they can afford to pay Georgia’s very inexpensive college tuition (if they live at home).
td
February 25th, 2011
6:16 pm
Maureen Downey
February 25th, 2011
11:41 am
@HStchr, I once that while kids could earn college tuition money through summer jobs in the past, it was no longer true — college costs have soared so much that the only summer job that could pay the costs would be robbing banks.
Maureen
Well, if the Universities numbers go down to much then “Supply and Demand” will tell the universities that they have to reduce the amount being charged or shut down. Our tuition costs are artificially inflated now because of all the Hope, Pell and other free money the kids get and do not have to work for.
td
February 25th, 2011
6:25 pm
Why is the HOPE an entitlement for the rich if the requirements are increased? Are you all saying that rich kids are inherently smarter than poor or middle class kids? Is HOPE suppose to be a welfare program for the poor or a program to help the best and brightest we have? Please do not try to tell me a 3.0 with the grade inflation we have today is a representation of the best and brightest.
Also, why does every child have to go to UGA or GT? What is wrong with a 3.0 student attending KSU, West Ga or Georgia Southern? Maybe keeping these marginal students out of the “research universities” will get every student in the school they should attend instead of the school they did not belong in and help them get the degree.
Dr. Craig Spinks/ Augusta
February 25th, 2011
6:30 pm
Gtmom,
Hope your continue to contribute your wisdom to this blog.
Susan
February 25th, 2011
6:40 pm
Hope should be an equal opportunity for all students in Georgia. If you work hard, then you should be rewarded for your hard work. It has nothing to do with the income status of the parents. Let’s focus on the child and his or her hard work. Don’t have too much input about the GPA average. But others before me are saying 3.7 is too high. If that is true, then it should be lowered.
Compass
February 25th, 2011
7:33 pm
I think we all are missing one point here.
For starters, I know many some families that earn around $150,000, they do not lead lavish lifestyles at all. I think this proposal is far too low, but it might beat the Deal one.
Also, would these caps apply if the child was no longer claimed as a dependent?
bootney farnsworth
February 25th, 2011
7:51 pm
nice words, but not buying it.
this is just a political whore finding religion
Roy is just throwing bombs as he knows he’ll not have to back up anything he says..
are the new standards unrealistically high? maybe.
is education in Georgia in desperate need of reform? hell yes.
what bothers me most is this whole debate is becoming little more than
an exercise in class warfare.
Top School
February 25th, 2011
8:49 pm
That’s “how it works” on the Northside of Atlanta…Roy Barnes knows the neighborhood well!
http://www.TopPublicSchoolCorruptionAtlanta.com
HStchr
February 25th, 2011
10:02 pm
To all who say “let them get loans and get a job”… How would you feel about your kid starting adult life owing 50 to 100 thousand dollars? The average four year college tuition, plus books and materials, will leave them in that predicament. Remember, with many loans, if they don’t pay, YOU DO! And the banks will come after you if your name is anywhere on anything to do with the loans. Also, as some have pointed out, how can a kid attend full-time or even part-time and work enough to earn the money to pay tuition? Have you checked the tuition costs at even your local community college lately? Incomes have not risen at anywhere near a comparable rate to college tuition. It’s just not like it was in the “good old days” folks.
I’m not against raising requirements and more closely monitoring kids’ grades in college, but a 3.7 knocks out 95% of possible HOPE recipients. Call your local high school and find out how many kids have that in the senior class. You’ll see plenty who can keep 3.2 or even a 3.5, but only your potential honor graduates get above that, and they usually make up about 10% of a graduating class.
Toto: Exposing naked body scanners...
February 25th, 2011
10:10 pm
No one has answered the question, “Why is the Hope /Lottery projected to go bankrupt by 2013?” Has anyone seen the independent audit? Have actual ticket sales dropped? Have ticket sales remained steady, but number of Hope recipients increased faster than projected? In light of our state’s deteriorating economy, how much has this affected total lottery earnings? The lottery contracts are bid on; can we hire another company (Intralot, etc.) and get better results? Why is bankruptcy inevitable? If so few students will now qualify for Hope under the proposed changes, wouldn’t it be cheaper to drop it altogether? If the new Hope fails, will the next step be a California style “free school for all” to be thrust on the backs of taxpayers? We all know what happened to California…..
Equitas
February 25th, 2011
10:53 pm
I prefer the original requirements of the HOPE Scholarship
even if the allocated funding has to be decreased to every
eligible student. I do find it troubling that so many good
students have to rely on funding for obtaining their
professional goals through a university as a by product
of somebody buying a lottery ticket on a whim. I know
some families don’t have any extra money to save after
paying for basic necessities, but even if a family started
saving $25 a week ($100 a month) from the birth of the
child they would have at least $20,000 (Not enough to
attend four years of a college,but at least a starting
point) saved after 17 years. Maybe the question that
has to be asked of some of us is are we investing more
in consumer goods than our own children? Does the
average family spend a great deal more on automobiles
than they have to over the developing years of their
children (spending more for luxury than investing in
our children’s future ) ?
Toto: Exposing naked body scanners...
February 25th, 2011
10:54 pm
Another solution: State owned banks: Why should Wall Street have all the fun(ds)?
http://www.webofdebt.com/articles/economic_sovereignty.php
shutthefrontdoor
February 25th, 2011
11:37 pm
my state can host the olympics, but can’t get 12 *elected* members of a school board to get the f**k over themselves, spends 1.5M$ to *reinvent* math…and now tells me that my never-missed-the-honor-roll *ever* in 12 years children must maintain a GPA that is 2 pts *above* the current research university’s honor grads? how many children of lottery winners even enrolled and/or graduated from this states universities and colleges with that GPA requirement?
i propose a new tax break that gives single parents who put academically successful, trouble-free, responsible children into society as members that contribute, rather than tax the already broken system even more…should never have to pay income taxes again…
i think keeping my children out of the jails, off the roads, and out of the government and state sponsored systems i paid into all the years while i made sure they received an education and never had a need for a public defender and weren’t on the roads causing accidents or destroying public property — i think after 18 years of my contributions to public systems via my income and property and sales taxes that i never used for myself or my family…sans public school..is enough contribution…
maybe parents — of all income levels — would have a lot more incentive to keep their kids in check and in school if they knew all their hardship and effort has a financial pot of gold waiting for them…
and the surplus left from taxpayer paid systems that fund all these “juvenile delinquent” and associated programs would fund this scholarship…why does my child have to do without college because your child can’t keep curfew??
how much incentive do my children have to keep up the good grades and stay in the top 10% percent of their class now that they’ve been told the year they graduate with those honors…the state doesn’t have the payoff it promised?
meanwhile, our locally elected officials get funding for executive SUVs…
jim1980
February 26th, 2011
5:37 am
I saw GTmom’s story. It is indeed inspiring.
However, for those in-state students, there is program called Ga Tech Promise which basically cover the rest of its student’s cost with grant and work study with no loan. Ga Tech Promise was created for the purpose to help students who lost Hope scholarship. http://www.promise.gatech.edu/
Another point. If you look at the economic makeup of GT, it has only 8% of its students whose parents has income less than $30,000 and 56.5% of its students whose parents has income greater than 100,000. It has become very much upper middle class university.
Personally, it will not affect Ga Tech at all since 40 to 45% of its students came from OOS/International any way. With so many rich Indians and Chinese families who want to get that elite engineering education, it could easily increase international students (currently only 10 to 12% of its student are international with 25% acceptance rate ) pool a little bit to pick up any Georgian who decide to not come to Ga Tech due to financial issue.
On the other hand, I think that it will affect UGA much more. Very few students in UGA students are OOS/International. Many of its top students pick UGA over other private schools and/or other OOS public schools due to Hope scholarship. Now, that advantage maybe over for UGA.
William
February 26th, 2011
7:53 am
The HOPE Scholarship will not incentivize children to study. If the parents do not instill a respect for education in children, they will most likely not excel in academics. The only thing the HOPE Scholarship accomplishes is tuition hikes. Universities know they can raise their tuition rates when education is subsidized by the government, lottery, or alumni donations.
If you want college tuition to come down and be more affordable to more people, you must stop all subsidies and force these institutions to compete in a FREE market for students and tuition. Then they’ll be forced to actually teach them something worthwhile.
intownparent
February 26th, 2011
8:10 am
I guess Roy Barnes wants to return UGA to the mediocre, backwoods farmer’s college that it was before HOPE.
Kim
February 26th, 2011
10:33 am
I totally agree with former Governor Barnes. Put the income caps back and the GPA’s where they were. So many creative and intelligent kids are going to be left out of higher education if this is not corrected and it will be to our country’s detriment.
GNGS
February 26th, 2011
10:49 am
Enter your comments hereIncome cap, a good idea at right place
GA has two highly ranked universities, GT and UGA. They are academically excellent and economically affordable. The administrators and faculties with the support from taxpayers have done a great job to accomplish this. However, the most important thing in this amazing accomplishment is student. GT and UGA have been able to recruit more outstanding high school graduates because of HOPE. The reality is that the higher performing students are likely from higher income family. As far as this reality stays with us, income cap for HOPE is a bad idea. It is true that higher income family has more resources to pay for their kids’ college education. It is also true that higher income family has more options. For a family making $150K a year, they are sensitive to cost of college education. They may choose an out-of state school if the difference of tuition between GT/UGA and out-of-state schools is small. For instance, Duke’s tuition is about $37K a year and GT/UGA’s in-state tuition is about 8K a year. Over a four-year period, a family may save as much as $150K by attending GT/UGA with HOPE. Having an outstanding student from a family of relative means is not only good for the future of GA, but it is also good for GA right now. The money saved will likely be spent in GA and will likely help economy in GA. Buying a “HOPE-mobile” is better for GA than sending the money to other states. The HOPE scholarship is doing what it originally intended to do: “Helping Outstanding Pupil Excel” and keeping them in GA.
Income cap for Pre-K is a good idea since the program helps the disadvantaged kids the most. Higher income parents are not going to send their kids to other states because of the lack of free Pre-K. Another way to have an income cap is to have a progressive state income tax, much like the federal income tax system. GA has a great opportunity to do this now: when switching to a sale-tax based system, we can keep 6 percent marginal rate of state income tax for income over $250K a year, and reduce the rate progressively for lower income bracket.
GTmom
February 26th, 2011
10:51 am
To be perfectly honest, once I got in to GA Tech and had a 3.8 GPA, I really didn’t need HOPE anymore. I don’t know about other GA schools but GA Tech stacks scholarships (at least it did when I was in school). I had 6 by the time I graduated. I turned several down because I really did not feel comfortable taking any more money.
I know that $150,000 doesn’t seem like a lavish lifestyle. It is… Look up what the median salary is for a family for the nation.. and then the world. $150,000 is a lot of money. If you use your money wisely, you could be loaded. We don’t have cable. We drive 5-10 year old cars (Honda Civic). But in 10 years, I have saved so much money. I will be able to afford college for my kids. It is all about priorities. I just got my first cellphone this year (it is cheap phone that doesn’t have texting). We don’t even own a flat screen TV. We may not look like we have a lavish lifestyle but we paid about 1/2 off on our intown house in 6 years. People who are poor can not do that. Heck, they wouldn’t even be able to afford my neighborhood. $150K is lavish… there is no other way to look at it. Please, take time and volunteer. You will meet real people with real problems who have nothing. My lifestyle is lavish with good food to eat, wonderful beautiful days in the park, nice vacations, and Health.
Thanks for those who let me tell my story. I am very grateful for everything I have. I have many people to thank. The past Governors who let me focus on studying instead of working. I also thank my teachers. I was quiet and introverted. I had numerous teachers who helped me along the way sometimes with just a hug..sometimes with a push. They do matter even if I never said anything. I wonder if they know just how much they mean to me.
Kim
February 26th, 2011
10:56 am
The $100,000.00 income cap was abolished in 1995 by Zell Miller. Why?
Kim
February 26th, 2011
11:04 am
GNGS: One of the reasons Hope is in trouble is because the caps are gone. With the cost of college having gone up so much, the cap should probably be set at $200,000.00. Wealthy families do not or should not need the Hope scholarship.
Jackie T.
February 26th, 2011
11:24 am
It’s so sad to see that there are still people like Ashley…
Jackie T.
February 26th, 2011
11:30 am
Does the HOPE amount get adjusted if students are getting other scholarships? Seems like it should…
td
February 26th, 2011
2:07 pm
intownparent
February 26th, 2011
8:10 am
I guess Roy Barnes wants to return UGA to the mediocre, backwoods farmer’s college that it was before HOPE
Can you back that statement up with facts? If it was such a “mediocre, backwoods farmer’s college” then was there waiting list to enter before the HOPE was established in the first place? Why does 90% of all the children in this state want to attend UGA before HOPE and now after HOPE as well? I also think most of our political leaders, Judges and captains of industry within the state have a degree from UGA?
td
February 26th, 2011
2:11 pm
Jackie T.
February 26th, 2011
11:24 am
It’s so sad to see that there are still people like Ashley…
I think it is sad that we do not have more people LIKE Ashley. Taking the personal responsibility for your Education (working hard), not drinking or doing drugs and not becoming a teenage parent is the recipe for getting out of poverty.
GNGS
February 26th, 2011
3:01 pm
Kim, there are many reasons that HOPE is running out of money. The main one, IMHO, is grade inflation.
In terms of income cap for college tuition, it is not a bad idea per se. As stated earlier, getting upper middle income family ($150K or so) is not a good idea. Setting too high a bar, such as $200K, you catch too few students to make a difference and you will have to create an additional layer of bureaucracy to manage this income cap. It is not worth the hassle.