Roy Barnes: Wrong solutions on HOPE Scholarship
Roy Barnes
I received this note from former Gov. Roy Barnes, who granted me permission to share it although he was aware that critics would jump in and accuse him of sour grapes or worse
As the first generation in my family to attend college, I share Barnes’ concern that the changes in HOPE will hurt kids who do not come from a family with strong education backgrounds.
I also think the 3.7 GPA to get Full HOPE and the 3.5 to keep it is steep, considering that the average GPA for the students in Georgia Tech’s Honors Program is below 3.5. (The average GPA in the Honors Program at Tech is 3.34 for the Class of 2011 and 3.37 for the Class of 2012. )
Please, be respectful in comments as I am going to be en route to Athens and my editor hates to play traffic cop in my absence.
From the former governor:
A message from exile where grandchildren and cows rule the day. I can’t believe what we have done to HOPE. Did there need to be a change made to HOPE? Without a doubt, but what we are doing is the wrong solution. The answer would have been to go back to the original plan for HOPE. Available to those with a family income of $75k for a single parent and $150k for two parents.
Now, to get the full ride for HOPE you have to have a 3.7 GPA and a 1200 SAT. This favors kids who come from affluent families. As a first generation college graduate I know first generation kids generally score lower on the SAT and that is generally from family circumstances. Children in non college families don’t get exposed early to the breadth of learning as kids from college graduate homes.
My children scored significantly higher on SAT than their mother or me, and their children will score even higher. What we have done is give HOPE to the affluent families who can already afford to send their kids to college, and deprive poorer white and black kids an opportunity to break out. Bad policy.
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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164 comments Add your comment
d
February 25th, 2011
11:35 am
Maureen
Is the 1200 SAT requirement for just the math and verbal sections (or whatever they’re called now) or is it 1200 for all 3 sections? I know when I took the ACT in high school, I earned a 29 which was the equivalent to about a 1350 on the old 1600 scale or so I’ve been told. 1200 on all 3 sections of SAT is much easier to earn than 26 on ACT.
renee
February 25th, 2011
11:36 am
@Rob – apparently Deal is…he’s consulted with Barnes on recent issues.
Bill
February 25th, 2011
11:37 am
The original purpose of public universities in Georgia and throughout the country was to make higher education accessible to everyone. Until the last 30 years. Public education, including higher ed, was seen as a societal good. The more people we educate, the better we will be as a society. Now somehow, it is seen almost exclusively as a private good – what is in it for me.
Tell the truth
February 25th, 2011
11:38 am
My recollection is that the original Hope was needs based and for public schools in Georgia. Now it has been perverted to take care of the wealthy also and to also help pay for the children of the wealthy to go to their private schools, both in state and out of state. Can’t have those poor folks getting something that the wealthy also want now can we?
Maureen Downey
February 25th, 2011
11:38 am
@D, The 1,200 is out of the traditional 1,600 scale.
Vince
February 25th, 2011
11:41 am
@ Springdale Park
Perhaps it is the public schools you have visited that have given you that perspective. My own children, and their friends, have told me their high school courses were at least as rigorous as their college courses. My daughter has a 4.0 in college whereas she struggled to make a 3.1 in high school.
Check out the schools in Gwinnett.
Roy Barnes Gets it Right on HOPE :: Georgia Politico
February 25th, 2011
11:41 am
[...] comment needed on this one. This is a letter from former Governor Roy Barnes sent to Maureen Downey: A message from exile where grandchildren and cows rule the day. I can’t believe what we have [...]
Maureen Downey
February 25th, 2011
11:41 am
@HStchr, I once that while kids could earn college tuition money through summer jobs in the past, it was no longer true — college costs have soared so much that the only summer job that could pay the costs would be robbing banks.
Maureen
Let Them Eat Cake
February 25th, 2011
11:43 am
I’m in the minority, on more fronts that one. I don’t think Deal did enough. I didn’t vote for him or Barnes. Going to college is a privilege; it’s not a right. With parents having to pay more, I hope their kids take school more seriously. I am so tired of seeing ill-equipped children who view college as 13th grade. There will be some lifestyle changes (Is this what parents are lamenting–not taking the vacations or living in McMansions?) but parents need to suck it up. They made a choice to have these children, and they should further choose to educate them.
Bill
February 25th, 2011
11:44 am
Springdale,
If you don’t mind, your tone is quite condescending. “$30,000 in low-interest student loans vs. a college degree which gives you a 250% increase in lifetime earning potential” You might note the word “potential”. You might also know (I know you are smart, cause you told us) that these are averages. Half to better and half to worse. You are assuming that education is all about earnings and that is a very narrow view. What about people who are interested in making a difference in our society (the public school teachers you scorn). These types of positions often will not support this kind of debt. The result is that young people who could make this world a better place, and want to do that, have to go chasing $$.
Robopop
February 25th, 2011
11:45 am
I agree with Roy and with Bill. Let’s restore the lottery money to HOPE before trying to make cuts. In order to get the lottery voted in the politicians promised that the money would be used for education. That promise, along with ALL other promises made by politicians was broken long ago. The time has come to put a stop to the status quo. No more lies! The problem with state and federal government is too many politicians. Vote out ALL politicians and elect statesmen instead. We need representative government restored!
wood
February 25th, 2011
11:46 am
roy is right. kids parents who can already afford college are taking lotto money (mostly financed by poor people)to send their kids to college. Gov Deal just capped out poor kids from having any hope of getting out of their poor condition. The richer get richer and the poorer gets poorer. I guess eventually there is Hope to say so long to the middle class.
Bill
February 25th, 2011
11:46 am
Cake,
If these young people get educated, or if they do not does not simply effect their parents. It has an effect on society.
Tell the truth
February 25th, 2011
11:47 am
extremerightwing Yes please make sure that we don’t give those “poor folks” anything – it will only ruin their drive to succeed and their incentive to pull themselves up by their bootstraps; which is the way that all the good little Republicans have succeeded right? Of course the good little Republicans perverted the original intent of the Hope to take care of their little wealthy darlings. Now tell me again how that worked???
Rick Phillips
February 25th, 2011
11:47 am
Nothing is ever said about – The Hope Loophole – which is when college students have below a 3.0 GPA yet STILL get the Hope money. If that loophole were closed via checking the GPA each semester – tens of millions would be saved, tens of millions. And, it would make all students more involved in maintaining classroom efforts from day one in college.
While Barnes laments the laws impact on minority or lower income students – the real thing to lament is that the system itself does not hold the students responsible for their own actions. IF the system had not been paying tens of millions each year in violation of it’s own standards of maintaining a 3.0 to recieve Hope – it would not be in the condition it is now.
Jake
February 25th, 2011
11:51 am
Suck it up. Study harder. Get the 3.7.
We should raise the bar academically. HOPE should be for serious students, not an entitlement program aimed at giving everyone the “college experience”.
I went to high school/college in Tennessee. Guess what…THERE WAS NO HOPE SCHOLARSHIP.
There was the “work your a$$ off and HOPE you get a scholarship”.
Whining maggots.
justdhoo
February 25th, 2011
11:52 am
Don’t forget the cost of going to college includes a lot more than the tuition. The cost of on-campus housing at Georgia Tech for one semester is $3500. I worked as a coop student and intern making $20 an hour to cover this expense, which it barely did especially considering that I had to stay at Tech an additional year because of the semesters I spent as a coop. If it weren’t for HOPE, I still would have had to take out loans despite making a lot more than the average student “working their way through college”.
another comment
February 25th, 2011
11:54 am
What people forget is that if there is an income cap put on it, some very wealthy people, get around it. Most companies in the US are small businesses, they are put on the owners personal income tax. The income for the owner of the business can be very low. Some of those rich white kids driving BMW also get the PELL grants ect. Daddy’s CPA tells him how to do it and come up with a low income.
During the the years that myself and 4 siblings went to college my parents made $5,200 a year. My father owned 2-3 Sub Chapter S Corporations during this time. We all qualified for Pell Grants, Work Study, Federal Loans. Otherwise you can not afford for 4 Children in College in College at the same time. Of course my parents never applied for food stamps, free lunch, earned income credit or any of that crap. It was all done by his business accountant does for any business and all like every business acountant. My father told me before he died last year what he regretted that the accountanted talked him into taking his income so low, is that he and my mother barely got any Social Security earnings. My father also refused to sell the business.
So an earnings cap won’t do a damn thing but cut out the people who actually have salaried jobs, and don’t have loosing investments to write off against them.
There are tons of people that have kids that go to Westminster, Lovett, Marist, Woodwart, etc…. Grandma, Grandpa are paying the tuition ( it is right at what the Federal Government allows for the annual Gift Inheritance giving amount) and then the parents apply for Financial aid. If you have half a brain talk to Muffy and ask what her husband does, the job does not add up to paying $60K out in tuition to the private school and her not working. In fact he doesn’t even make $60K.
Why aren't loans an option?
February 25th, 2011
11:57 am
Not sure why student loans aren’t an option? Most states don’t have programs like HOPE, so kids take out student loans if they don’t qualify for grants and scholarships. Not sure what is wrong with that. If a child really wants to attend college, he’ll make up the difference with student loans.
When does one become responsible for his/her own education? It’s not societies responsibility to give anyone an education.
GTmom
February 25th, 2011
11:58 am
Exactly Gov Barnes!
I grew up with poor rural drug addicted/alcoholic parents that didn’t even a high school degree. I scored very low on my SAT myself… I am not even going to tell you how low. I went to GA Southern to study Early Grades Education. A year into the program, I realized my easiest class was Calculus which I didn’t even need for my major. I jumped ship to engineering and transfered to GA Tech. Every day, I thank God, Gov. Miller, and Gov Barnes for supplying me with the best education possible. There was no way I could have afforded my education. I graduated Spring of 97 from GA Tech number 4 in my class. Fourth out of 100 (approximately) in my major. I then went on to Grad School and again did very well. I graduated both programs with highest honors. And I graduated without any school debt. I am now a technical lead at Lockheed Martin. If I had to have 1200 on the SAT, would I still be here?
I left the trailer park for a better life. My family never encouraged me in school but the GA governors did! Thank you… thank you.. thank you…. my success is yours!
justdhoo
February 25th, 2011
11:59 am
Also all this talk about the “poor paying for the rich to go to school” is ridiculous. The HOPE program is merit based. If the poor aren’t making the grades to qualify that’s their fault. The beauty of HOPE was that it allowed anyone to attend college regardless of background if they worked hard and made the grades.
sissy
February 25th, 2011
11:59 am
I am really disgusted with all this income talk! HELLO, the hope scholarship program is based on merit NOT INCOME. Maybe all you people complaining should be in a state where they don’t pay anything for your college education!!!!!!!! I certainly paid for mine 100% and my family did not make huge amounts of money and we had eight children (income less than 30,000 per year). In other states college cost go up to 100,000 per 4 years! Stop complaining and be gratefull that there is a HOPE Scholarship!!!!!!!! 90% paid for is nothing to complain about! Stop the I deserve it because my parents do not make enough money. My parents did not pay for my college. Even if they could they would have still made me pay for it. To them is was a something I needed to work and pay for. So please….be glad there is a Hope scholarship. And raising the bar is not bad….serious students will work harder.
Blue dog
February 25th, 2011
12:01 pm
Enter your comments here
Springdale Park Elementary Parent
February 25th, 2011
12:02 pm
@Bill: I LOVE public school teachers. I just generally hate their bosses. Read my posts. I want to turn every overworked and underappreciated GOOD public school teacher into a well-compensated, celebrated charter school teacher.
And re: the $30,000: I didn’t say it was easy. I said it was obvious.
Learning the life lesson that you must work very hard to succeed should not start the day AFTER you get your lotto-funded college degree.
another comment
February 25th, 2011
12:03 pm
They need to completely get rid of the Hope Grant. This is nonsence going to GED receipiants. We need to have at least a 2-3 track graduation track in Georgia High Schools. With it starting in Middle schools.
The bullies existing in 4th grade. my daughter was bullied and beated in 4th grade by 4th and 5th grade thugs. Cobb County protects the thugs by saying they are only 10 or 11 years old. Try some are 13-14 already. They are a foot bigger than my child.
Every class starting in elementary needs to be split up bases upon the ability of the students. Since when are my children your TA’s. Parents should be required to teach their children the ABC’s, to Count to 100 by Kindergarten, the shapes. All in English. Otherwise, send the child back as not ready. The parent should then be required to pay for Pre-K. No Benefits should be payable if the child wasn’t ready for Kindergarden at age 5. I started Firstgrade at 5 without Kindergarden or Pre-k and a High School Dropout Mother. I have also read the newspaper everyday since I was 3. ( Some people find that to be an annoying habit of mine, the internet just causes me to read 4-5 different papers)
RT
February 25th, 2011
12:09 pm
Interesting. The dips in this state elect Deal, then they realized the smart guy from that contest is not a country lawyer in a cow pasture. All I ask of all of you here is, where were you on election day?
WE lost our way
February 25th, 2011
12:09 pm
@ Another Comment –I have seen what a CPA can do with a Pell or Federal assistance program.My Son in law comes from a wealthy family in South Georgia.They own a 2000 acre farm corporation and a Propane Business.They even own Condos and land in South America. My son in law went to a four year research university on Pell. My family did not qualify for Pell because of our total income of 75000.00.Figures lie and liars figure.
101 Club
February 25th, 2011
12:09 pm
I can’t believe all the whining on this blog. Students are still getting a very generous deal compared to other states.
Blue dog
February 25th, 2011
12:11 pm
Dr Phil
Thank you for injecting common sense into this problem. I have argued that far to many students use the HOPE funds and Pell Grants to simply “party until they flunk out”. No one mentions those statistics. Most students are simply not college material and would far better off learning a trade. I would like to see more Lotto money spent for Pre K…where it Really can make a difference for children from low income/less educated families.
another comment
February 25th, 2011
12:13 pm
There is a big difference between how grades are given out at the different schools. IB Classes it is near impossible to get an A, It is also very hard and Alot of work to get an A in an AP class. Honors classes are difficult and must be taken in Public school to avoid the rif raff. An A is difficult to get in these classes. Most of the on level classes are and Easy A.
Now Math 1,2,3 is completely screwing up many students in the class of 2013 classes. If you look at how the bill for the Hope is written it doesn’t even correctly account for this screw up. It only says having taken Math 3. These kids in 2012, 2013 have been totally screwed and now have GPA’s that are screwed. Their PSAT scores are low in Math due to this Math 1,2,3 debacle.
I am personally hiring a SAT tutor the kids at Marist used to raise their SAT scores, but they won’t know this MATH 1,2,3 thing since they don’t teach it.
My child has already taken 3 AP Classes and is in French 3 so I guess she meets the higher requirements and has a 3.75 GPA.
Let Them Eat Cake
February 25th, 2011
12:15 pm
If kids and parents want the education, then I believe they’ll find a way, in spite of HOPE. Education was a priority in my family, and I was fortunate enough to have a mom who was willing to make the sacrifices for me to attend a private, out of state college. She was a widowed parent (and not single by choice). Her car was always old and she worked part-time jobs, in addition to her job as a social worker, but she managed to contribute whatever the scholarships didn’t. People are entitled to what they earn or are willing to put in the sweat equity for–nothing more or less.
GTmom
February 25th, 2011
12:19 pm
Maybe some do take advantage of the system… but there are cases where some are helped (me!)… I have broken the cycle of abuse through education. My kids are growing up in wonderful environment. I didn’t have high SAT scores but once I got in to college and away from my abusers, I excelled.
Maybe the answer would be that if you don’t maintain a high GPA, you have to pay back the HOPE.
And to the person saying that people don’t graduate GA Tech with high GPA’s. I did and I was told I wouldn’t excel because of my SAT score. I graduated with a 3.8. It is about being determined. I was determine to prove to the world that I could do it.
another comment
February 25th, 2011
12:22 pm
You simply can not have the same college GPA requiremtent of an Engineering major as someone who is going to Georgia Perimeter. Basically someone who is going to Ga Perimeter and I know a person who son when to Ga Southern and now Ga. Perimeter and is on his 5th year and has not even a 2 year degree with a person who is going to Ga. Tech. The person who is going to Ga. Peremiter is a waste of Hope money, and will not find a job. The person going to Tech will find a job.
I told the mother of the Ga. Peremiter student, she should cut off her son and tell him to go join the Army. I also told her my kids have 4 years to get a 4 year degree and I expect 18-21 credits per hour. I did it working part time.
My daughters will be looking out of Georgia at Private Schools for Scholarships that are 4 year commitments. Not something that politicians that should have been prosecuted for crimes and avoid prosecution can take back.
GTmom
February 25th, 2011
12:24 pm
Let Them Eat Cake – not everyone grows up like you do. Your mother worked hard.. mine didn’t (she was usually drunk or stoned).. but that wasn’t my fault. I didn’t ask to be born to my mother…. my mother was awful to me when I entered college.. Told me I wasn’t being responsible..when she was my age, she was taking care of herself. I guess being married at 16 and pg by 18 to her was more responsible than college in her mind.
Not everyone has “cake” to eat. My children do and will!
Barnes: HOPE change is bad policy « Georgia Colleges
February 25th, 2011
12:27 pm
[...] up behind it. Here’s what Gov. Roy Barnes has to say on the issue, courtesy of Maureen Downey’s Get Schooled blog: Roy [...]
Rose
February 25th, 2011
12:29 pm
Re Chad: You can’t take less rigorous courses in high school – or you won’t get into UGA or Tech (if that’s your preference) to begin with. They look at the rigor of your curriculum along with GPA and SAT/ACT scores. If you go for early admission, they look strictly at the raw data (GPA, etc). They want to see AP courses or at the very least, honors classes in high school. In college, if students want to get into the various colleges within UGA (ie Terry School of Business, Grady for journalism) – you have to have the grades. It’s extremely competitive.
I’m not sure that being wealthy relates to being smarter or better grades – maybe more advantages to being exposed to certain things, but your IQ isn’t greater or you work ethic isn’t diminished because your parents earn big money. I live in an affluent area although we are middle class. Our daughter was capable and we made sure she was aware of what our expectations were. Get the Hope, retain the Hope or you’ll get student loans. She received the Hope and kept it, graduated in 4 years out of Terry at UGA. Her grade point average was in the 3.4 area and I know that she didn’t work too hard as she had a full social life.
I’m just glad that we were able to get the use of Hope. But anyone who had Hope during the last several years haven’t been getting books paid for. Fees were handled, but we paid out of pocket for her books the entire time (she graduated in May ‘09).
shaggy
February 25th, 2011
12:30 pm
Gee, either the parents or the students will have to pony up the 10% and book fees for a mediocre student. That means less time focusing on celebrity culture and more time actually learning something. The horror, you say. The student might even have to get a (EEEEEK!) job.
This can’t be allowed.
Tim Ryles
February 25th, 2011
12:38 pm
I agree with Roy. The irony of the changes in HOPE is that they are engineered by dim-witted folks, a class of people one might ordinarily expect to see the class bias of their actions and correct them. Unfortunately, modern “Republicans” (21 are so
Tim Ryles
February 25th, 2011
12:41 pm
OOPS: SHOULD READ (21st Century Dixiecrats) are so committed to serving wealth they can’t really help themselves.
Tell the truth
February 25th, 2011
12:41 pm
justdhoo It was also needs based originally, before the Republicans decided their kids needed some of that free money!!! Greed does that to folks.
Mike_Savaii
February 25th, 2011
12:49 pm
This Hope discussion and the former gov miss a key point. With all due respect, is a 3.5 in engineering from Tech the same as a 3.5 in leisure studies from UGA, or a 3.5 in Sport Mgmt from West Georgia? Come on. Point is that it is counter productive to force the Hope-keeping gpa’s across schools and majors to be constant. This seems like a perverse incentive and clearly doesn’t encourage kids to go into the sciences and more technical majors that will be necessary for the state to compete internationally in the coming years. It should not be difficult for the scholars at our universities to design a sliding Hope scale weighted by major and institutional gpa averages so that someone with a 2.7 in physics is not financially punished vs a 3.9 physical education major. And yes, I agree with the former gov that the current incentive structure is particularly tough on the poor and 1st generation college kids, potentially steering them away from technical fields.
Mike
February 25th, 2011
12:52 pm
Just another elitist cluster $&@ we can thank Deal’s behind the scenes education advisor, Will Superstar Schofield for.
Tad Jackson
February 25th, 2011
12:53 pm
GTmom … I see a book out of you! I’d dang read it!
http://www.adixiediary.com
Jane
February 25th, 2011
12:54 pm
My concern is for those who have already invested years in school and will not be able to complete their education because of financial restraints. Could the cuts be tapered or those students with a certain amount of credit hours be allowed to finish with the current guidelines?
oldtimer
February 25th, 2011
1:13 pm
Inor my children ever needed Pell. But both my children have friends that did. It made a big difference for thm. The ones I know well finished top state schools, lived on campus, help part-time jobs, and graduated with little or no debt. Two are teachers, one is a nurse, and one works in the business world and has now completed graduate school. Bill is correct in the use of the Pell. These were children who had working parents or maybe just aparent. Not all who get help are lazy entitled consumers.
NWGA teacher
February 25th, 2011
1:21 pm
Hell has frozen over. I agree with Roy Barnes.
JF McNamara
February 25th, 2011
1:22 pm
Springdale Park Elementary Parent wrote:,
“The “progressive” model of making things 100% free for “underprivileged” people in fact is a slow poison that kills initiative and self-reliance.
You know who really wants to help these kids? ME. I want to bulldoze their crappy public schools, give them a chance to attend a quality school run by a community of caring people (not municipal employees); hold the parents of those kids 100% accountable for the child’s performance, and then reward those kids who stick it out with a college education (which they’ll contribute to by working and with readily available loans and grants).”
This is completely absurd. The kids we are talking about are the one’s who excelled at those crappy schools that you want to bulldoze. You aren’t hurting the dumb ones, you’re hurting the one’s making the best of the bad situation. These kid have a lot more initiative and self reliance than those rich kids will ever have. Many are fighting their way out of rural or urban poverty.
To say that the people working at these schools don’t care is completely dumb. These are the ONLY kids they care about.
Why do you care that it’ll be free for those less priveleged? I’ll end up paying too, but I’m not upset about. You’re just a selfish rich person and the only thing that matters to you is keeping your own money. Say what you want, but that’s what your posts indicate. Most other people with wealth at least understand how short sighted this proposal is even though they all want it for the free education money.
What's best for kids?
February 25th, 2011
1:24 pm
Jane,
They can take out student loans. They can take out student loans. Say it with me: “They can take out student loans.”
I think the whole HOPE should be given to k-12 with the stipulation that the money goes to books, technology, CLASSROOM TEACHERS, facility maintenance and upkeep. NO ADMINISTRATORS.
Then those who care about furthering their education will do so, and those who wish to party like it’s 1999 can do so on their own dime.
Gtmom
February 25th, 2011
1:25 pm
Tad Jackson – You have no idea how long I have thought about that!!! But then I am a realist….. I am an engineer…. we are usually horrible in grammar and in English. I would love to reach those students who have no self esteem and who think that living in a trailer is all that they have going for them. And to talk to students who may have not always performed well on test or in their class. You can always CHANGE no matter where you are in life and no matter who are your parents. It is harder to start out when you have nothing.. for me, I had a hard time just making it to a job so I could afford a car to get to college (there are no buses in the country.. and my parents did not want me to go to college). I had to get to college and getting a car to get there was very tough. My first year (before HOPE came along), I worked 60 hours a week, commuted 1.2 hours to school and lived at home with my family who was bringing me down. I could not even get a student loan because no one would back me up (ie my parents). So when you start from nothing it really is very tough. I was in horrible relationships with guys just for freaking ride off my dirt road and to work which was 20 miles away. Then HOPE came around and changed my life. I quit my job and moved to campus (away from the hell that I was living in). Ha… I laugh but after going to school full time, and the other crap I dealt with… GA Tech was EASY. Someone just had to give me a chance.
I am soooooooo thankful for my beautiful life and I am so happy! If I could talk to kids like me, I would say don’t let anyone hold you back even if you have messed up. I didn’t take classes to prepare me for college. I didn’t do well on my SAT. But I did excel and anyone that wants it can too!! But first learn to forgive and get rid of hate.. not worth you time. I forgave my parents. Maybe I was so hard working in spite of them. Maybe a little HOPE was all I needed.
Tad Jackson
February 25th, 2011
1:29 pm
Hello, GTmom … well … if not a book, then keep posting your inspirational stories!