One thing duct-tape shouldn’t fix: Unruly students
Can someone explain why teachers would duct-tape students to a chair or tape over their mouths? Or lock students in a closet?
A Cherokee high school teacher pleaded guilty to false imprisonment today for duct-taping an autistic boy to a chair and confining a blind girl under a desk. The former Woodstock High teacher was sentenced to six years of probation and $2,000 in fines. The crimes occurred in 2008.
I get a lot of folks e-mailing me stories from around the country about similar crimes and am puzzled why this still occurs. As someone who had 12 years of tough nuns, I never saw more than a ruler whack now and then. (Yes, sometimes it was me whose hand was whacked. I was one of those jump-up-and-down kids when I knew an answer and could get carried away with my hand waving.)
These discipline methods fall into the category of professional suicide as there is simply no way to defend them. And I know that teachers are aware that these behaviors are unacceptable and will get them in trouble.
I was surprised to hear Michelle Rhee say that she put little bits of masking tape over the mouths of her students once to quiet them as they walked to lunch. In sharing her first-year learning curve as a new teacher, Rhee admitted that she lacked classroom management skills. On a day when her children were rowdy, a desperate Rhee says she told the class to please be quiet on the way to the cafeteria. And then she put the tape on their lips, presenting it as a “keep quiet” game. But when Rhee told them to pull the tape off, she had 35 crying children. She never told them, she said, to lick their lips first so the tape would come off with ease.
(Speaking of Rhee, she has an op-ed in today’s AJC where she reiterates her objections to layoff policies that protect seniority.)
Getting back to the local story, if any teachers can explain what would drive a colleague to these actions, please share it on the blog.
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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71 comments Add your comment
just watching
February 24th, 2011
1:59 pm
Oh Trotter….where art thou?
RJ
February 24th, 2011
2:08 pm
Desperation would more than likely be their reason, but that doesn’t make it right! Or it could be stupidity! There is no excuse to abuse a child. As a teacher I work with autistic kids that haven’t been placed and kids with other disabilities. I would never resort to using duct tape. If I can’t control them, an administrator will be notified immediately to address the issue. They have the power to get the necessary help. This story saddens me.
V for Vendetta
February 24th, 2011
2:14 pm
I do not support their actions.
However . . .
The elephant in the room that is special ed. has been an anchor around the neck of public education for far too long. ADA and IDEA are use to justify all sorts of heinous students, parents, and behaviors from both. For every wonderful child in special ed. there are a dozen more hooligans labeled EBD or ADHD that shouldn’t be served in a public school. (EBD is just a label given to thugs and kids who weren’t disciplined growing up. It’s garbage.)
How much money is being wasted on this crap?
2 cents
February 24th, 2011
2:15 pm
just how many years was Rhee in the classroom??
Dunwoody Mom
February 24th, 2011
2:21 pm
@V for Vendetta….This story was about an autistic child and a blind child…not a child with ADHD.
oldtimer
February 24th, 2011
2:30 pm
I feel desperation drove her to it…..does not excuse it. I guess in my years, I was never very desperate.
drew (former teacher)
February 24th, 2011
2:32 pm
I’m always impressed by the creative use of duct tape, but obviously this was a bad idea. I live by the Duct Tape Rule: If you can’t duct it, f**k it.
redhousecat
February 24th, 2011
2:37 pm
I can remember in the late 70’s early 80’s being in elementary school and teachers using the clear tape on a talkative kid. It was mainly for embarrassment that anything since it wasn’t “painful” to the mouth. All she ever said was those lips better stay behind the tape. I also remember a teacher tying a piece of string from the desk to a boy’s bet loop because he wandered the classroom all the time. Lastly, this one may be a bit controversial, if we got in any kind of trouble, we had to stand with our arms outstretched, palms up and we had to hold up the books until we reached muscle failure. It didn’t hurt physically, but sure was embarrassing. These were three different grades and three different teachers.
I know the boy who was tied to a chair passed in an auto accident, but kids with tape and book ordeal seemed to turn out ok…..who knew.
but, to be on topic, I think duct tape is a bit painful, on all grounds. And COMPLETELY wrong to use on mentally/physically handicapped students.
I wish I knew who you are, V for Vendetta....
February 24th, 2011
2:39 pm
Your comments are as harsh, wrong-minded, and evil as any I’ve ever read on this blog. My guess is that you have no idea what you are really talking about. My child is one of those “thugs” that was in a psycho-ed facility due to behavioral issues related to autism and bipolar disorder. I assure you that he didn’t suffer from a lack of discipline at home. He has two well-adjusted siblings that don’t have his diagnosis or his problems. Your statement that EBD kids are …”thugs and kids who weren’t disciplined growing up” might not be an accurate statement after all.
I’m sure that there are indeed some kids that are EBD because of poor parenting, but that does not mean that all EBD kids are “thugs” or that special ed is an “anchor around the neck of Public Education”. You really should see things from a parent’s perspective before you speak.
If you want to post your real name or address, we can continue the conversation in person. My guess is that you are thankful for the anonymous nature of the internet, and would prefer to snipe away.
the prof
February 24th, 2011
3:00 pm
On kind of a related note, I am a parent of 4 children, one who is very handicapped (not ADHD or EBD). My “special” child requries lots of special attention in her class at school. I am all for inclusiveness and including her in regular classrooms, but I wonder if we are “diluting” our talent by requiring her to be at her school and not at a school where the very best therapists and very best equipment would be, giving her the very best attention during every period of the school day. I love the teachers and therapists that she has now and am very happy with the school and system that they are all in but am torn wondering whether she could be better served…
@ the prof
February 24th, 2011
3:08 pm
I agree. I think that we need to look at whether academics need to be pushed as hard, as well. More emphasis on life skills might do a lot of this poulation more good over time than learning multiplication tables.
Tonya C.
February 24th, 2011
3:16 pm
the prof:
Any ‘good’ special ed parent has asked themselves this question. Our son has entered middle-school this year and is mostly mainstreamed. But I fought it tooth-and-nail until he had demonstrated the maturity to handle the environment. I STILL believe the best case scenario for him would be a small-school environment, but as a high-functioning Aspie he is doing really well in the school he is in. I am not a fan of inclusion being hammered down the throats of non-special ed parents and kids regardless of the cost to the rest of the classroom.
ETA: My son has the worst year ever last year (5th grade). He started off in a self-contained classroom, but against my gut instinct we allowed him to be mainstreamed. It wasn’t the right environment and he wasn’t ready, and we all paid dearly for that. I felt the school forced inclusion on me despite multiple requests otherwise.
Lighter Moment
February 24th, 2011
3:24 pm
What Duct Tape IS good for: The Duct Tape Prom. Check out some pics
http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/wayoflife/03/15/duct.tape.prom/index.html
Tad Jackson
February 24th, 2011
3:26 pm
Don’t ever touch a student … unless you’re patting them on the back.
V is an idiot
February 24th, 2011
3:27 pm
I wish I knew said just about everything that I wanted to say and very elegantly I might add. I have five children and all are very bright. I do have a child with Aspergers that was diagnosed this year. He functions very well in the classroom but does need some extra attention. We have to go through testing both mental and physical for him to receive this attention although we have a diagnosis from a physician outside of the school as well as treatment by a occupational therapist. Discipline is not an issue. My child deserves to learn like anyone else. Although he can be a little disruptive at times this does not qualify him as a hooligan and a thug. You may be familiar with a gentleman named Bill Gates. He was diagnosed with Aspergers. I suppose we should have written him off. I hope you never have a special needs child. That child would deserve so much better than you.
Mid Ga Retiree
February 24th, 2011
3:55 pm
Sounds like the teacher that used the duct tape must have somehow slipped through the psychological evaluation process to become a teacher. Wait, do they have a psycho eval process to determine if prospective teachers are suited for the job????? If this were an act of desperation, that would indicate that problems had been building and building until the teacher “snapped”, so to speak. If so, why didn’t administrators see this coming??? Were they too busy hiding in their offices instead of being out in the halls checking on teachers periodically????? Even though the teacher messed up big time, it seems like an “on-their-toes” administrator should have seen warning signs and intervened.
jarvis
February 24th, 2011
4:19 pm
@V is an idiot, I certainly feel for your situation, but did want to let you know that Bill Gates AS diganosis is an untrue rumor.
catlady
February 24th, 2011
4:25 pm
While this is absolutely not acceptable, I am willing to bet that there are multiple “bad guys” in this story. I am betting the sped teacher was NOT getting the administrative and parental support s/he had to have, and was probably in a situation with too many severely impaired children and too little help.
I push into a sped class with 14 (!)children, one talented teacher, and a parapro. All day, with a few others in and out. All the students are toilet trained and all speak; all have retardation of varying degrees and many behavior problems; most will never be able to live independently. Some are FAS, some are autistic, some are shunted from place to place due to parental abuse. One has been in 7 living placements in 2 1/2 years. Almost all have parents who have no idea how to discipline them, or work with them. There are good days, and LOTS of bad days. God bless sped teachers; there is probably a special place in heaven for them.
tim
February 24th, 2011
4:25 pm
Ms Downey…..If you need to ask “what would drive a colleague to these actions”, you shouldn’t be writing this column.
Why don’t you ask your friend Bev Hall???? I’m sure she has all the answers.
Allen
February 24th, 2011
4:27 pm
Here’s a question for you all. How do we balance these two statements made above, both by parents of special-ed kids?
1. I am not a fan of inclusion being hammered down the throats of non-special ed parents and kids regardless of the cost to the rest of the classroom.
2. My child deserves to learn like anyone else. . . . he can be a little disruptive at times . .
Dedicatedandtired
February 24th, 2011
4:35 pm
I am so sorry to say this, but I think more teachers are going to crack and do things out of desperation. Teachers are being pushed too far right now. The students will suffer and the teachers should get fired, but someone has to look at why?
Tonya C.
February 24th, 2011
4:40 pm
Allen:
I am reasonable. And a lot less delusional than most special ed parents. The world doesn’t revolve around our child, and I worry as much about other people’s children as I do my own. In my experience, the children who were ‘a little disruptive’ are a lot more than that in a classroom of 25-30 kids. I’m still paranoid about how my son’s behavior effects others, but his teachers have all assured me he is fine. And they are free to, at anytime, let me know otherwise without concern for backlash.
the prof
February 24th, 2011
5:12 pm
Thank all of you for your comments! I agree with Tonya and also am always concerned that my daughter’s behavior will affect others learning as well (including two of her siblings!).
I love teaching. I hate what it is becoming...
February 24th, 2011
5:26 pm
I have never raised a hand to a child, or taped a mouth shut, or used vulgar language, or threatened a student…but I have absolutely no problem imagining a scenario in which a teacher could get pushed that far. Abused people can become the abusers.
Obviously...
February 24th, 2011
5:39 pm
If Michelle Rhee has admitted to using this barbaric tactic of duct taping students’ mouth shut, why on earth is anyone listening to her as she attempting to tell the rest if the world how to do education right?
Funny story
February 24th, 2011
5:47 pm
I once had a very good student who every now and then would get out of hand. On one occassion, after I had communicated with the dad via my “blue note,” the dad wrote back that if I had any further problems, “I should let him know, and he would duct tape his son to the pole in the basement!” I was so mortified that I went to the office to report the potential child abuse. Those at the school who were in the know laughed. Apparently it was a well-known family prank that the brother had duct taped this kids to the pole in the basement and it was a family joke. After that, all I had to do was mention duct tape and the kids would smile and straighten up!
Ole Guy
February 24th, 2011
5:59 pm
Prof, are you implying that the LIMITED 12 year PUBLICALY-FUNDED public education pipeline should include training in so-called life skills? Do I, you, or,for that matter, any tax payer want monies to go toward teaching little Johnny toilet skills? NO WAY! I want MY tax monies to be applied to his skills which will enable him to become a viable contributor…so-called “life skills”, important as they are, are Little Johnny’s responsibilities. I”M not the least bit interested in how he gains his life skills, just not on MY dime. If, as an adult, his diminished life skills nake him unfit for a productive role, that’s HIS problem, not mine. If, as an adult, he has terrible table manners, is unable to handle the mysteries of finance, craps his pants in public, or is guilty of any of a number of social faux pas, that’s HIS problem, and HIS responsibility to repair. ALL I’m interested in is his capability as a mover, shaker, and/or a producer, and that translates into a sound academic preparation. .
V is an idiot
February 24th, 2011
6:26 pm
Allen: thanks for your comment and in a respectable manner. Different situations for families with spec needs children. My child is high functioning and can easily handle a normal classroom setting. We have friends who do not want their child mainstreamed and I understand their concerns. The concessions that my child needs are fairly simple. He needs to get up and wander around at times. He needs an extra push every now and the and it is very important that he does not get overwhelmed because it sets him back. I know this can be a little burdensome but to put him in a class dedicated to just sp needs is not fair to him. He has aspirations of being a veterinarian and I have no doubt he can do it.
Archie@Arkham Asylum
February 24th, 2011
7:01 pm
@ The Prof: On the subject of teaching life skills to moderate/severely disabled students I would have to say that I agree with you that life skills should be emphasized rather than the Georgia Performance Standards (Given the time it takes for students with moderate/severe developmental disabilities to learn even functional skills.) When one of these students becomes an adult, would you rather they have the skills to go into a store and purchase an item? or the ability (on a good day) to remember that World War II took place in the last century?
the prof
February 24th, 2011
7:35 pm
@Ole Guy…but you sure will accept my tax monies to wipe your A__, which they may already be doing huh?
Chuckles
February 24th, 2011
7:37 pm
#Catlady got it right.” I am willing to bet that there are multiple “bad guys” in this story” You betcha. Did CCSS do their Job? Are SPED Teachers givin proper support? NO and No. No One commenting knows wtf happened. This was pure railroading! PAS This wonderful person didn’t deserve this after 24 years of serving the states mandate. Anyone ever consider the safety of all involved here? Instead of pointing at the bogus conviction by plea bargain Maureen, You should get to root causes, Public K12 is not the place for some of these children, period.
Just a Thought
February 24th, 2011
7:52 pm
In just about every county the Special Ed program is low man on the ladder. Education is a reflection of the larger society. Some people (including some on this blog) do not have compassion or genuine concern for children with special needs. Many EBD children have mental illnesses, have been abused, or have been abandoned. ADHD is an overly used label to be sure but no need to see these children as throwaways.
As much as some of my ADHD students can “challenge” my management skills, I care and love each of them. I would never want to see them harmed or short changed. Even my “thug” students. A LOT of them (emphasis on purpose) have had NO chance in life due to misguided parents and are basically fending for themselves the best they know how (which they don’t know much because they are kids). Once you talk to them one on one they break like babies.
And you know what? All of them EBD, ADHD, and THUG totally respond to someone who shows they care about them. At least in my experience. These are the kids I teach everyday and while a challenge, I know that my kind words and concern might be the only ones they hear that day. I discipline them. And they respect me because I respect the fact that they are people and not just labels everyone wants to define them by. Go figure. This is why I got into teaching, ya know…to change lives.
gamom
February 24th, 2011
7:58 pm
Can V be banned?
Tonya C.
February 24th, 2011
7:58 pm
@V is an idiot:
Your son is actually the PERFECT candidate for a self-contained classroom where those needs can be catered to. His behaviors, if consistent, can be a severe disruption to a class of 30 kids. My son was in one for several years, and it is a large part of the reason he is doing so well now. Once he was able to get those behaviors consistently under control, then he could join the masses. He is still in a Resource classroom for LA, because he struggles with that subject.
This is exactly what I was describing. Too many special needs parents see their kids behaviors in a vacuum without acknowledgment of how distracting and disruptive they really are. I sat in on his class more than once, and truly believe that many general ed teachers (especially the younger ones) just don’t have enough experience and training to handle the diaspora of needs in today’s classroom.
Retired Educator
February 24th, 2011
8:07 pm
That’s the same thing Michelle Rhee did to her students and now she is the national model for a super teacher. Her students little mouth’s were bleeding when she had them remove the tape. No go figure.
gamom
February 24th, 2011
8:07 pm
There is no justification for using duct tape for behavior management! There is also no excuse for this corporal punishment in schools nonsense to still be legal in Georgia either. Maureen I wish you would post the latest stats from Georgia Public schools to show the public exactly how often this is occurring and the simple fact is there is no uniform way of reporting each incident either. So the numbers are probably falsely low in my opinion. Check out all the rural areas of Georgia – most of them still use this baloney to curtail behavior. It doesn’t work and keep your darn hands, duct tape and wooden boards off the kids! It’s embarassing for my beloved state of GA.
ScienceTeacher671
February 24th, 2011
8:09 pm
Ole Guy, if “Little Johnny” can’t use the toilet, can’t speak, can’t walk, and can’t feed himself, much less read and write, precisely what sort of “sound academic preparation” would you suggest his teachers start with?
Lee
February 24th, 2011
8:19 pm
You gotta wonder if someone’s been sleeping in a cave for the past twenty years to not realize that taping a kid’s mouth shut, locking them in a closet, etc, etc, will get you fired with a good possibility of jail time.
Of course, duct tape is one of man’s greatest inventions with a million uses. Here’s one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGM3-WiEZco
@ ole guy
February 24th, 2011
8:43 pm
You are a bitter and hateful person. Let me guess- no friends, too? Disfunctional family? I thought so. Do us all a favor and stick the gun in your mouth and pull the trigger, already. You are one hateful person and the world will not miss you one bit. Now, please- pull that trigger….
And Michelle Rhee...
February 24th, 2011
10:42 pm
…didn’t get fired for that little stunt with the tape? Unbelievable! And now she is the messiah-guru of education. LOL, what a country!
My Brothers Keeper
February 25th, 2011
1:50 am
This teacher had been teaching special ED for years. She snapped! I don’t know why. The thing I find odd is the teacher who reported this incident lost there job…whats up with that?
Re: "And Michelle Rhee" at 10:42PM
February 25th, 2011
7:01 am
Let me guess- you are a member of a teachers union?
catlady
February 25th, 2011
7:15 am
Tonya C–”diaspora of needs”–I love that description!
Canadian mum
February 25th, 2011
7:23 am
Wow. Bad for everyone involved. I have read through a lot of the comments, and can sense frustration and anger from alot of comments, politely put or not. Quite unacceptable behavior, I agree.
Just for a bit of comparison, in our school division, special needs children are in the school, and participate in some of the age group class activities, but, they have their own teacher and each child has an aid for physical assistance if needed, most would have 2 or 3 kids each. Each participates to thier abilities. These children need an education, whatever that involves, but not at the cost of the rest of the class. We want to include them socially, for everyone’s benefit. It teaches tolerance. Some kids only go to this teacher for behaviour problems, sort of back up for the teacher and do not have an aid as well. It seems to work in elementary schools.
I understand we fund our schools differently, all schools in the province get the same per student, rich or poor, english or french. Special needs students get additional funds as needed. Even severely handicapped kids needing full medical support get to go to school if they are able.. We also are required to provide challenging tasks to advanced kids too, though few teachers complain about the smart kids.
Nothing negative here, just offering another view of how it can be done. I was suprised when I lived in California years ago, that poor neighborhoods had horrible schools, while rich ones had nice ones. I had never experienced this, all our schools were more or less the same. Seems unfair to the kids.
Poupon
February 25th, 2011
8:56 am
My son went to the feeder school for this high school. His kindergarten teacher wass so abusive that every child in that class was defecating in their pants by the end of the year – a sure sign of abuse. We pulled my son out, told the principal we were firing the school and would not be sending in declarations of intent to home school, because we do not work for the schools. The schools work for us. I very openly homeschooled him all the way to college, and his sister never ented school at all. She wants to go to high school next year (her senior year,) and this is where she would go. We’ve never told either one they have to be home schooled, so of course we said yes. She’s very mature and has always stood up well for herself, so I’m not concerned about how she will manage classes, but after my son’s ordeal, I studied school violence and learned that school violence is almost always top down ( happens in schools where administratin bullies teachers and teachers bully students, who then bully each other) that is precisely what goes on in our county, and there are some famous school violence incidents to prove it. My dd can protect herself aganst teachers like the ones who just got their hand slapped over this case, but can she protect herself against the kid who has taken all he can take and goes ballistic? Of course not. Judging by the exceptionally angry schoolies in our neighborhood, and preesumably every other neighborhood that feeds into this school, that pot is just about ready to boil over.
If that isn’t reason for school choice, I don’t know what is.
Dr NO
February 25th, 2011
9:06 am
Sometimes my girlfriend enjoys a little duct tape.
I cant WAIT for RHEE to get here and begin the well deserved firings.
Poupon
February 25th, 2011
9:12 am
I pulled my child out of this toxic school district (see above post) but ironically, I also teach the children of htis county, who come to me for living history presentations during field trips. I get as many as 225 students a day, often in double size classes. I get special needs clases as well as regular classes, which are often mixed. I have never had a child I could not manage, without resorting to any kind of ugly behavior. I have however, had teachs who were out of control, disrespectful to both me and their students, and have had to ask two to leave the classroom, because they were disruptive. They do ALL the things you hear about kids with ADHD doing. It’s bizarre, and bizarre how often I see it. Most often though, I see teachers who are incapable of speaking to a student without cutting them down. Their tone of voice alone makes my skin crawl. I have had to alter my presentation so that the first thing I do is tell the teacher to take a break – that I won’t need their “help”. If you ever want to knw how good your kid’s teacher is at class management, offer to teach a class sometime, or have those kids to a birthday party. If the group dynamic is happy and well mannered, you’re dealing with a super teacher. If it is chaoritc, angry and hard to manage, trust me, that comes from that teacher. So all of you who sympathize with your kid’s teacher because her class is out of control, guess what? She is the cause of that.
Questioning
February 25th, 2011
9:17 am
Wait until you are bitten and then we will talk about why this extreme method was used.
motherjanegoose
February 25th, 2011
9:32 am
I usually hang out with Momania but this story caught my eye.
I was duck taped, as a first grader, in a private school. The year was 1965. I talked too much,
I am now a national early childhood consultant….I was just getting started in my talking career at age 6
Maureen Downey
February 25th, 2011
9:34 am
@mother, Love when you wander over here, although I know you are a mainstay and a voice of reason at Momania.
Maureen
Poupon
February 25th, 2011
9:39 am
For parents of special needs kids: the worst teachers I ever see are the ones for this population. I am sorry to say I have yet to meet an exception to the rule. But never mind what I see. This is how they look through The eyes of other students:
My son was alwqys distressed by how the kids in special ed were trewted, whether they were students included in his class or in the seperate classes. He was in fact, punished once for approaching the tacher of the hearing impaired class and suggesting her class play with his on the playground. He would say things to me, that troubled me, but the full impact happened when he was nine, after the school district conttacted me and begged me to give public school another chance. We went to meet with the principal and were given a tour. My son was somber, and asked a few worried questions, but when we saw a teacher berate a child in a class for kids with developmental delays, his entire body stiffened and from then on walked like a robot for the rest of the tour – almost catatonic. The principal asked how he liked the school, and I snarled “Can’t you tell by his body language?” . As we wlked out the door, I promised my son I would never ever make him return to school. His response waas so upsetting it nearly made me vomit. “okay Mom, but can we drive around back and let the others out?”
That question still makes my blood run cold. It still haunts both of us. Five years later, as a staffer at a BSA camp, my son taught an obese and very discouraged and depressed boy to swim. He skipped his own lunch hour to do it. Later, on his essays for both his Eagle award, and college entrance paps, he wrote that the look on the boy’s face told him in an instant what he needed to do wiht his life. He is now 19 and studying to be a teacher. It has been his way of healing from the extreme damage done by his Kindergarten teacher in this district from Hell.
Unfortunately, when he gets his degree, he will jave mto find a school where the majority of his peers didn’t become teachers because they were immature, twisted creeps looking for an opportunity to bully little kids. It’s a tall order.
motherjanegoose
February 25th, 2011
10:01 am
@ maureen….I have met catlady for lunch more than once and she thinks I need to hang out here more often too. Maybe I should check in more but I do have to work sometimes….LOL. I have met teachers from coast to coast, during my business travels and it is always interesting to learn what is going on in their states compared to ours.
I have invited several of the bloggers on Momania to lunch and have made some wonderful new friends. It has been so much fun! I do want to be a voice of reason but some folks think I am clearly off my rocker…that is fine too. I will try to check in here more often.
Have a great weekend and remind yourself that this is why we live in Atlanta…beautiful weather in February!
Poupon
February 25th, 2011
10:08 am
Apologies for my spelling – I have an ipad disability
When I was in second grade, my mother got sick and I was sent to live with an aunt for a couple months. I got put in a disruptive class with a teacher who had poor class management skills. Like everyone else, I got in trouble for talking in class a couple times, and we were always spanked for
it. One day, my teacher got exasperated with my talking, so she handed me the so called ” board of education” and told me to spank myself. I was still getting to know the kids, and was unsure of wherer I stood with them, so I was mortified, just asa she hoped. I remember standing there, with this big paddle, which was too heavy for me, and attempting to spank myself, and then realizing that my full skirt and petticoat completely prevented any contact, and was in fact making the paddle bounce crazily around the room. I looked at the class anxiously, and then did the most confidence building thing I’ve ver done in my life. I burst out laughing. So did the class. Until we were literally rolling in the aisles. We kept laughing all day and many more, and I became the pet of the entire class. The paddle however, was vanquished, never to be used again on anyone.
Moral to the story : kids, when you are feel like you’re going to burst into tears, laugh instead. Because when you laugh the whole world does laugh along with you. But when you cry, it brings bullies out in droves.
Evan's Gmom
February 25th, 2011
10:18 am
Old Prof and V. May God have mercy on you. You may not have a special needs child or grandchild…..keep your comments in the back of your mind because things have a way of coming back to haunt you. I sincerely hope they don’t. I love my grandbaby if he never speaks a word or goes to the potty on his own. We PAY for his education. As a matter of fact, if he did go to public school I have been paying school taxes all of my life as well as all his other family members. And….guess what, insurance doesn’t pay a thing for his therapy, meds etc. His Daddy works for YOU everyday. He is career military that goes off to fight for your right to be obnoxious about his child. Good luck, you will need it.
Tonya C.
February 25th, 2011
10:24 am
Poupon:
Really? Is your school system that bad? I’ve been blessed to meet some GREAT teachers, special ed and otherwise. Extreme stories like yours always bewilder me as so many parents do so little research on school districts before moving in them. I’m open-minded enough to have considered home-schooling and haven’t ruled it out for the future. But I don’t find a need to put down public schools to make that option sound better.
Poupon
February 25th, 2011
10:44 am
What ole guy doesn’t get is that without life skills you can’t make it any distance at all in society. I grew up in an intellectual family, and for the most part am one myself, but I value good life skills over all other intelligence. As a homeschool parent, I have made this a major part of my children’s education. i made sure they read well, provided them with a lot of classics (which they devoured) taught them math, and taught them how to research anything they were curious about, and I seeded those curiosities.
Other than that, we worked on life skills. We got a booth in an antique mall and did ebay and etsy so they coud learn how to run a business. We rehabbed wild animals (school kids dissect frogs;my kids and I did successful ssurgery on a rooster the vets gave up on). My kids did living history demonstrations (my son worked and lived in Kit Carson’s home in New Mexico last summer, staying in character 24 hours a day for 4 months) and doing lots of volunteer work. Both took the BSA’s superb National Youth Leadership Training (my dd as a beta in preperation for girls being admitted into the BSA) and my son taught it, and my dd will this year.
In case you wonder what sorts of things kids study when encouraged to be curious, my son learned to play bagpipes, blacksmith, got search and rescue certified, taught kayaking, did ballet, did FIRST Lego League, which he studied terraformin Mars for (it requirres a research project), met with the sign language speaking bonobos apes in their language lab, and. So many other things I can’t think of them off hand. My dd delved deeply into history, commerce and environmental concerns – plus politics. Both did a lot of volunteer work also, including hndreds of hours helping our humane asociety with both their shop and fostering.
A huge part of their math, BTW came from a marvelous book titled Kitchen Math thwt was written for the adult developmentlly delayed population, to be used in a life skills class. It was no “dumbie” course. Amazing how much math you encounter in a super mwrket if you look for it.
Ideally, the sorts of thngs we did as homeschoolers, are done by every parent, just less intensively. But, the entire concept of public school works against that happening. What I see going on now, is that teachers are relying on kids learning on their own through massive amounts of home work. Day after day, my neighbor’s kids come home withall their school work and no indication anything much was covered in the classroom. If typical, they are in tewm sports every single afternoon until late. When thwt happens, kids can’t get after school jobs, can’t do volunteer work, can’t be in Scouts (team sports are good, but very limiting – a child needs variety), and they sure as heck aren’t spending time lewrnng life skills from parents at any age, because the rest of the time they are in day care or hanging our with friends.
Publicschools created this monster. Until someone figures out how to uncreate it, they bett stqrt teadhing life skills to everyone, yup, nd that includes diapering, if need be.
Schools can’t match the education they inadvertantly forced my children to get at home, but they can certainly do better at teaching life skills, even in real life situations (like setting up a student run shop or having them learn how to run fund raising events.
Poupon
February 25th, 2011
11:24 am
Tonya C,
Oh yes, they aree THAT bad and worse, but don’t take my word for it. Google the cases at Etowah where a student shot himself in front of his class and left a suicide note detailing the abuse by teachers and staff going all the way back to kindergarten. His parents sued, took it all the way to the Supreme Court, which ruled that while all the incidents were documented and proven to be correct (none of which the school had done squat about) schools can’t be held accountable for the safety of the students. Peachy.
The month we removed my son from school, the Josh Bellaurdo incident happened. To refresh your memory, a student from Etowah stomped a student form ET Booth to death while he stepped from the school bus. Don’t think that is relevant? Then you don’t know anything about bullying and the environment that creates bullies. The same week, a six year old girl from Chapman (then an elementary school) was molested on the bus by two boys from ET Booth. The threeschools sharer a campus and at least at the time, buses. The only action the school took was to move the girl’s seat to the front of the bus. I learned about this because a classmate of my son’s had to testify in court. Why was it in court? Because the school refused to take any action.
As for putting schools ddown and promoting homeschool, I didn’t put the schools down – their behavior does. And I never have and never will promote home school. That is up to each individual and their conscience. What I said was that we were forced to do so.
Denial will get you a long way, but not in a productive direction. The only way this will ever change is for parents to genuinely get involved. Look at your kid’s teachers without the rose colored glasses, which are too often formed out of guilt, mixed with relief that you are not parenting alone) and above all things, remember that schools are here to serve us. We are not there to serve them. If they fail that job, fire them, and hire someone else. If that someone is you, then great, enjoy the ride. Othwise, there ARE terrific teachers out there. Unfortunately most of them were long since driven out of the system, because the system favors teachers who aren’t invested in teaching, and who are at best, decent babysitters.
Tonya C.
February 25th, 2011
11:59 am
Poupon:
You make a lot of assumptions. I am the LAST person to look through rose-colored glasses at anything. But go forth with whatever you believe. I have learned and gained knowledge through various forums and changed my stance based on others arguments, but you come off as presumptuous and accusatory.
Again, maybe because I’m younger and have a closer tie to this generation, my views are different. We researched schools like a beast before we relocated here, because our son was in a GREAT charter school and we needed it to be worth the move. It has. Bullying…please. My husband and I are still fresh with the memories of it, and we’re 30 and 31. We don’t send our kids to school for parenting, we send them for FORMAL education. Character development, social skills, and the like are our burden and we welcome it.
Poupon
February 25th, 2011
12:14 pm
Tonya C, Your comment about checking out schools brings up many points. First, the kinds of problems we encountered in schools don’t show up on school ratings, and school ratings rely on honest reporting, which, as we all have been made aware of recently, is hard to come by from school administrators.
Second, the parents of a rising kindergarten child are no match for a school that is looking to sell itself. I own a principal’s manual that has whole chapters that instruct staff on how to “handle” parents. Every one of the tricks was used on me, beginning with the line “well, this is your only/first child, so you are inexperienced snd think your child is too special” that one was used when I discoved his teacher was 6 months pregnant at the stqrt of kindergarten, and asked that he be put in a classroom that would have one teacher all year, because we had just moved across country, I had juwt had a baby, and we’d had two deaths of people he was close to – all in a six month period. That request was scoffed at, BTW, and it turned out that three month period when he had a substitute was fortunate.
Which brings me to the third point, which is that not all parents are in a position to hand choose their children’s schools. We were not. We had our hands more than full, with a number of stressful things we had no control over. I did volunteer in the school, both in the class and was on the board of the PTA. I forfeited my younger child’s babyhood in my efforts to make the school situation workable. I came from a family of educators, and while my mother was sick, I was raised by my grandfather, who became famous for his ability to calm juvenile offenders in a reform school that he took over after several murders. He was subsequently sent to Austria to run the Ebensee Displaced Person’s camp after WW2, where he was in charge of the care of hundreds of truamatized Holocaust victims. My great grandmother, grandparents, father, two siblings, severwl cousins, myself and my son are all teachers, as was my MIL. Most have won awards. – my cousin won $10,000 just this week from Best Buy for his innovations in teaching. I also see many teachers on the job while I am doing my own teaching. I see what works, and far too often, what doesn’t.
Suffice to say, I know good teaching. It may even be in my DNA, and it certainly was in my raising, but when it came to putting my firstborn in school, I knew far too little. I had been dealing with the crream of the crop, and it frankly did not occur to me that they were not typical.
And besides, blaming the victim is so….Cherokee County.
j4a
February 25th, 2011
1:06 pm
@ V for vendetta and Ol Guy. I have read many of your twisted thinking comments and have replied to a few of them. Why do you so viscously attack disabled children and their parents? Do you think these children and parents requested that their child have disabilities just to annoy others (such as yourself)?
I am the parent of a disabled child and am seriously offended by your viscous attacks on our families and disabled children! You should be ashamed of yourself! I hope neither of you have jobs in the public sector where you come into contact with children.
V for Vendetta
February 25th, 2011
1:59 pm
Wow,
I guess I’m a bit surprised by the viciousness of some of the responses. They far exceed anything I’ve received in response to my libertarian political views or lack of religious beliefs.
Ban me? That was especially funny.
As someone who has worked in a team-taught classroom for the past three years, I know quite a bit about how the special ed. machine works. I have seen students with Asperger’s make remarkable progress; I’ve seen students with mild autism overcome enormous obstacles; I’ve seen mainstreaming work when implemented correctly.
However, I’ve also seen the ugly side of special ed. as well. I’ve seen it used as a shield to keep dangerous and disruptive students in school. I’ve seen the ENORMOUS amounts of money poured into “educating” a miniscule portion of the school’s population. And, yes, I’ve seen parents who think that their children’s rights somehow supercede the rights of all other children with which they come in contact. (If you’re being honest with yourself, this is what ADA and IDEA effectively empower special ed. to do.)
While I appreciate some of your examples to the contrary, I have worked with many EBD and ADHD students (aside from being diagnosed ADHD myself at a young age), and I can tell you that the experience is more often than not a negative one. There certainly are exceptions, but many of the students who are thus labeled are simply ill-behaved, disruptive punks who use the shield of special ed. to prevent the school from permanently removing them. I would think that special ed. parents would be the ones outraged by such information because it takes the focus, energy, and time away from the true special ed. students that need our attention.
But I suppose that since I don’t have a special ed. child, I am unqualified to speak on the matter. Nevermind that I have taught them for a number of years. Nevermind the fact that I have enjoyed many of them as much or more than their regular ed. counterparts. I must be a horrible person.
j4a
February 25th, 2011
3:04 pm
What is it with the teachers who keep blaming parents or “parental involvement” as the sole reason for their classroom structure. My 3 year old child was abused by special ed. teacher in preschool and was being strapped into a rifton chair ( positioning chair for kids with physical issues that can’t sit alone) during his 5 hours weekly in school.At this time my child was very well behaved (still is but has verbal tics, which happens to non verbal kids) his only issue was he did not have speech. The teacher did this because in her sick mind she thought my child would not be able to tell me he was being abused at school. Boy was she wrong! I began to see crying, before and when I picked up at school he would cry and try to get out of his car seat when I tried to strap him in. The 3 year old child would get up and go to back seat (van), quit crying and sit there. We could not figure out what was going on. School year ended ( less than 40 hrs. for my child) and things went back to normal my child began to LOVE to ride in car again. Next school year I found the lone picture in bottom of previous years book bag of my child (taken by school and dated) strapped into the Rifton chair. Someone who gave a crap of what had been done to my child put this here for me to find.
I got out my parent- teacher note books and the date on the picture was the date that I sent teacher a note stating that my child was having serious constipation problems and if he was tip toeing or would not sit when she requested him to to please call me because he was constipated. She did not call, not one time. I was very involved. The next year this continued as he was placed back into her class at our request that he not be around her. Came home w/ black eye was told he ran into a door knob. Carpet burn on bottom of chin, but was told he hit chin on table while sitting down. We found out he was being sent into her class again. I found this out when I began to randomly drop by the school unannounced and saw him being led from her class. I was not allowed to go back into the school but could see the hallway from front of school. I began random visits when my child began crying and did not want to go to school. Were talking about a child who in pre-k, general ed. class would get up , put his own clothes on, get into the van, and smile all the way into the school with his twin brother.
I wrote notes EVERY DAY requesting how my child was functioning in his class, I was told for “the most part he is following routine etc.”. Never once did this teacher tell me he was being sent to the self contained class with the teacher who abused him. I showed the pre- k program director the picture and then the cover up for the teacher began. I was VERY involved!
2 advocates, 1 special ed. attorney, numerous IEP meetings, $2500.00 dollars later after a week of kindergarten i removed my child so that his twin brother could go to school without crying and worrying about what was being done to his brother in a separate class room. The twin begged for his brother to be put in his class so he could help him. My son’s twin saw the things that happened to his brother during preschool and pre-k and it devastated him. I had to sacrifice my disabled child’s right to public school attendance so that his twin could go to school w/o worrying about his brother. My twin who is in school now is gifted, but was labeled in preschool as PDD like his twin. I not only had one child I was advocating for but 2 children at the same time. I have all records, documents, recordings, pictures, notes etc. and I do intend to see this case in court at a future time.
In our district parent’s who get INVOLVED wind up with CPS, DFCS, or school social workers on their doorstep. INVOLVED parent’s have wound up in juvenile court charged with educational neglect, unruly child, and court ordered psych evals. because they were taken to juvenile court on truancy charges because of 5 unexcused absences of their child. Parent’s are being circumvented to the judicial system when they try to get INVOLVED.
Parental involvement my a$# ! Why don’t the teachers bother to call the parent’s of children that are having problems? It doesn’t matter how much parent’s are involved, because parents aren’t in the class room every day and do not know what is happening or taking place in the classroom. The teacher dictates what takes place in the class. Ultimately the teacher is responsible for what happens in their classroom each day!
j4a
February 25th, 2011
3:16 pm
Six years probation and 2000.00 fine? Why was this teacher not brought up on pre meditated charges of child abuse? The teacher only got a slap on the wrist as far as I’m concerned. Does anyone know if she had her teaching certificate revoked by the Professional Standards Commission for this? Does she still retain her employment with the school where this happened? She will most likely seek employment with another school or in another state and we will probably see this happen again in the future with her. How far will she take the abuse the next time?
j4a
February 25th, 2011
3:48 pm
@ V for Vendetta- ADA and IDEA are safeguards or protections for rights of people with disabilities. It should be alarming to the general public that as a civilized society we need laws in place to protect the rights of our most vulnerable citizens.
j4a
February 25th, 2011
4:05 pm
@ gamom- V thought that your suggestion of banning him/her was ” especially funny!” I think he/she is doing a good enough job on their own, no suggestions needed:) My father has a saying that is befitting of V… Give a person enough rope and they will hang themselves! I don’t want to be too critical of V because I know that the disabled can hold jobs as certified teachers and i think this may be the case with V.
Ole Guy
February 25th, 2011
5:47 pm
Poupon, I believe you have entirely missed the point of my comment. To be sure, these skills are necessary for success. However, just as with potty training, I, as a tax payer, see no reason to ensure these skills are achieved. This is the responsibility of parents, and ultimately, the kid. Granted, many kids are not afforder the opportunity to gain such skills, however, as functioning adults, that is their responsibility…NO ONE ELSES, much less the tax payer.
I love teaching. I hate what it is becoming...
February 25th, 2011
6:16 pm
Poupon,
QUOTE: “So all of you who sympathize with your kid’s teacher because her class is out of control, guess what? She is the cause of that.”
I wouldn’t be so quick to judge. Which came first? The unruly children or the sour teacher? I know you have the feeling many teachers are just bullies who got into teaching to order around small children, but honestly, do you really think most teachers chose to work with children all day because they hate children?
I am sorry for your negative experiences with education – but keep in mind – they are YOUR experiences and may not reflect all schools and all teachers. I have had some very negative experience with homeschoolers, but I wouldn’t draw conclusions about all homeschoolers or their motivations based upon those few experiences.
I have known and worked with extremely dedicated teachers to whom I would totally trust the well being of my child. And I have worked with terrible teachers I would not have let within ten feet of my child. Thankfully, the former has vastly outnumbered the latter.
V for Vendetta
February 25th, 2011
6:31 pm
j4a,
You have a special needs child, and you’re calling me “disabled” (one can only assume you mean mentally) in a derogatory way?
Wow.
j4a
February 26th, 2011
10:49 am
I want to add to my past posts. Only one of my twin boy’s has a disability. Only my child w/disability has had issues w/ teachers. The teachers we had issues with are special education teachers. My twin w/o disability has had some wonderful teachers, that is once I removed him from special education in kindergarten, he was in spec. ed. because he was wrongly diagnosed as PDD like his twin in preschool, they assumed that if his twin had a disability that he had one also. Unbelievable! I held many meetings trying to get the school to recognize they were wrong to label this child as he did not have a disability or any type of dev.delay etc. They would not listen to me. This child that was once labeled had a composite score of 98 NPR (national percentile rate)in all subjects, on the ITBS taken at beginning of this year. This child had every modification, accommodation,( even on testing) that can be allowed on his kindergarten IEP. Thank goodness for his kinder. teacher as she saw right through this. When I tried to remove him from spec. ed. in kinder. the IEP team tried their best to keep him on IEP and even gave him developmental reading assessment (kindergarten!) and he scored high on that!
Guess what folks? Spec. ed. (labeled) children get almost 2x the amount of money from the state per school year as their non-disabled counterparts. If I knew then what I know now, I would have never let the school have tested my 3 year olds. Parent’s please be careful with the labeling of your child by the public school system. Your child’s medical doctor can request the necessary testing by professionals, medical doctors can also do evaluations. These evaluations can negatively affect your child’s future.
The psycho- educational programs in public schools are the problem. These tests are not valid and are very subjective and biased and depend on the examiners appraisal of them and what tests they select. Example: Giving a verbal subtest to a non verbal child. Do you think the non verbal child will score low or high on a verbal test? They told me my 3 year old non- verbal child was depressed. How did they figure this out? Actually he may have been as he was being restrained on a daily basis during a 5 hr. school week. Unbelievable!
The problem for children w/ labels in school is the special education programs. Special education is not a room where children are sent. Special ed. kids are being habilitated as a one size fits all approach. Don’t believe spec. ed. understands the meaning of the word INDIVIDUAL.
Then these children enter a gen. ed class and it falls on the gen. ed. teacher who has to deal with behaviors of avoidance ( in spec. ed. child was not taught even the most basic pre-requisite skills) when presented with work that the child has never seen before, this is when and why most of these behaviors begin so the child knows if he acts out he will not have to do the work he doesn’t understand or has not seen before and will be sent back to spec. ed. to languish and do nothing! )
There are states that mainstream all special ed. kids and guess what? They don’t have the behaviors in the gen. ed. class. Do you know why their mainstreaming is successful? Because they have accountable scientifically valid, INDIVIDUAL programs for the children in special ed. before they are sent out to mainstream.
Fulton County Observer
February 28th, 2011
8:29 am
Speaking of teachers, staff and administrators “cracking”. Someone needs to send a team of investigators to Renaissance Middle School in South Fulton. This particular year they have had at least a dozen teachers (seasoned and newbies) walk away ( a few carried away by EMS) from the pressures of dealing with all types of students, administrators trying to impress the new principal PLACED at the school, and of course the ignormant parents of both mainstream and SPED students. There are only so many grievances that “downtown” can say “too bad you didn’t get it in in time”. Giving all investigators from SACS to the television stations to get this story out!
the prof
February 28th, 2011
9:28 am
V and Ole Guy….care to meet up with me?