Will 3.7 GPA for full HOPE lead to more grade inflation?
Speaking of a motivation for grade inflation, only high school students with a 3.7 GPA and decent SAT/ACT scores would get a full HOPE Scholarship under the plan unveiled today by Gov. Nathan Deal.
For kids with a 3.0, HOPE would cover at most 90 percent. Students who lose HOPE in college because their average falls below a 3.0 will only be able to regain it once under the Deal plan.
I can imagine a lot of parents shaking their heads right now if their kids have a 3.6 or a 3.5. A slight boost in that GPA could mean nearly an additional $1,000 a year in tuition at the research universities. I expect greater pressure on teachers for grades to earn the full HOPE.
I also wonder about the kids who have a perfect 2,400 on the SAT and a 3.6 GPA. Shouldn’t they qualify for full HOPE, or as it’s being called, the Zell Miller Scholarship? These Miller Scholars also can only regain HOPE once, and must maintain a 3.5 to keep their full ride. I am not clear from the bill whether these Miller Scholars then default to partial HOPE if their GPA falls to 3.0, which is the qualifying threshold for the partial HOPE. (See how confusing this is becoming?)
As predicted, Deal wants to cut pre-k down to four hours a day, from 6 1/2..
All the changes would save about $300 million., according to the governor.
As the AJC story states, “The proposal marks the end of two long-time promises Georgia has made – free all-day pre-K and free college tuition to public colleges if students earned and maintained a 3.0 GPA.”
HOPE serves 200,000 college students, while 82,000 children are in Georgia pre-k.
Deal also talked about low-interest loans of about 1 percent for students who can’t maintain a 3.0. The loan would be forgiven for those who teach math or science in Georgia’s public schools. One year of the loan will be forgiven for each year spent teaching.
In its response to Deal’s plan, Chancellor Erroll B. Davis Jr. said, “The plan to maintain the full tuition HOPE scholarship for University System of Georgia students earning a 3.7 high school GPA, in combination with a minimum SAT or ACT score, and requiring a 3.5 GPA in college, builds upon the work of the Board of Regents and of the Alliance of Education Agency Heads to increase academic rigor. This recommendation will help to keep Georgia’s best and brightest in the state.”
Other changes:
• Decouples from tuition. Students earning at least a 3.0 will see the scholarship cover 90 percent of current fiscal year 2011 tuition rates.
• Ties future scholarship amounts to lottery revenue, not tuition rates.
• Cuts private college award from $4,000 to $3,600.
• Creates the Zell Miller Scholarship. Students with at least a 3.7 GPA and 1200 SAT or 26 on ACT will get full tuition at public colleges and $4,000 to private colleges. Students will need to maintain a 3.5 to keep the scholarship.
• Eliminates money for books or mandatory fees.
• Caps payout to 127 hours for HOPE scholarship and 63 semesters for the HOPE grant. Students will a post-secondary degree will be ineligible for the technical grant.
• Requires high school students to take “rigorous” classes to qualify for HOPE. This will begin this fall with incoming high school freshmen.
–Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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99 comments Add your comment
oldtimer
February 22nd, 2011
11:21 am
More inflation….
Aquagirl
February 22nd, 2011
11:22 am
Of course there will be more grade inflation. Who cares? School and college ceased long ago to be about learning, you’re just getting your ticket punched to supposedly make more money.
And any word on what defines “rigorous” courses?
Recent UGA Grad
February 22nd, 2011
11:23 am
These proposals are more than fair. 90% of tuition completely covered? Students and families in other states would kill for this program. I received HOPE when I went to school, until the second semester of my junior year where I unfortunately lost focus a little bit and dropped to a 2.98 GPA. I knew what I was doing and what I was risking when I decided to allocate my time to becoming more involved on campus and chose to maintain a 20 hour a week job instead of spending another couple hours studying.
I’m tired of people complaining about “how dare the state decrease the benefits of HOPE”. The state can’t do anything else. The program is absolutely a victim of its own success and I couldn’t be happier about that. Because of HOPE, my degree has so much more legitimacy than it would have for a recent graduate 15 years ago. We all know that HOPE has helped keep the best and brightest Georgia students in the state and has helped our universities gain national prominince from awards, attracting world renowned professors to the state and don’t forget about UGA 2 years ago having 2 Rhodes Scholars, one of only 6 universities in the country to have multiple scholars. I graduated from a program ranked #2 in the nation and part of that can absolutely be attributed to the success of the HOPE scholarship. Because of that, I have secured a wonderful career and did it graduating a semester early.
I support the cuts to the program along with the proposed low interest loan proposal andother changes and I hope that others will as well. Also, remember – this comes from a student who lost HOPE. We all (students) know what we have to lose if we don’t focus on our academic requirements the way we should. Also, for those that will now get only 90% of tuition covered, realize that that means you only pay 10% tuition to get a COLLEGE DEGREE!! That is what, $400 a semester? Make your student get a job for a couple weeks over the summer / during school to pay for it.
Collins
February 22nd, 2011
11:27 am
I would worry less about an increase in grade inflation toward the 3.7 GPA associated with the Miller Scholarship. With an “and” clause associated with the GPA, a student who can get a 1200 on the SAT or a 26 on the ACT was probably already making a 3.7 with the current level of grade inflation.
APS Parent #2
February 22nd, 2011
11:29 am
Another bad idea like NCLB that will rob children of an education.
Schools like APS will further inflate grades (can it get any worse with them?) so that the GPA won’t be the issue that causes a student not to qualify for HOPE scholarship. When the student’s lack of education will become evident when he scores low on the SAT —- but the school will have an out — individual student performance. The school can say that the student had a bad day, wasn’t individually prepared, etc, etc, etc.
It won’t matter that the school system failed to educate the child from grades K through 12. That will be impossible to prove since APS CRCT scores are so high. (wink-wink)
NCLB did not benefit the students. This won’t either.
Gail
February 22nd, 2011
11:30 am
Does this also apply to students currently in college? If they made a 1200 SAT or 26 ACT and have a 3.5 do those students get 100% paid? Just curious since I have 2 children in college that fall in this category.
EnoughAlready
February 22nd, 2011
11:30 am
In my household, we have been weighing the pros and cons of in-state versus out of state; I think after this change we will go for the best university. HOPE was the best influence for in-state schools, but not as much after what I’ve learned today.
another comment
February 22nd, 2011
11:33 am
My kids might as well go to Duke, Vanderbilt, Harvard, Auburn, Alabama, etc. where these grades already get them a full scholarship. A 3.5 GPA and 1200 on the SAT already get you In-State Tutition at Auburn and Alabama. Then my daughter looks at it she can claim one of those 24 slots as an SES Cheerleader for a Top Ranked Team an cover the rest. There is nothing in the Auburn or Alabama Scholarship that says you loose it after one year, either. As my 16 year buts it is either Ivy League or a top 5 Football team. That is how a 16 year old thinks.
My kid does have a 3.765, despite the 2 B’s in the Math 1 and 2. They better look at what they are going to do about that first or no kid will hit the 3.75 mark. My daughter does not know anyone in her school that has gotten an A in Math 1 or Math 2.
Mom of 3
February 22nd, 2011
11:37 am
I think they did great given the budget. There will always be somebody who just falls short. There are kids now who just fall short of getting the HOPE. There has to be a cutoff. 90% is nothing to sneeze at.
Dr. John Trotter
February 22nd, 2011
11:38 am
More grade inflation? Yep.
PJ
February 22nd, 2011
11:39 am
Ok, now tha this hard work has been done to let the students know what they have to do, let’s make the Board of Regents accountable and force them to tow the line on Tuition increases. It is really strange to me how we always have tuition increases that far outpace inflation, especially in today’s economic environment. Since we as Georgians all seem to contribute to those athletes getting free educations, why not make it mandatory that 20% of the athletic intake goes back to the general spending fund for all of the University System schools. Additionally, since many lower income individuals can qualify for Pell and other government grants, they should all be forced to complete the FAFSA’s and get that aid first and if the needs are met relative to Tuition, then Hope should not be offered. And finally, my opinion is the GPA part of this should be thrown out, since it is ripe for cheating, as we have seen on CRCT’s. Why not make the ACT and SAT (with a minimum required GPA, say 3.0), which are independent and do not have local school influence, the only determining factor as it truly tests the kids knowledge on an equal basis.
PappyHappy
February 22nd, 2011
11:40 am
While not perfect, Gov Deal’s plan is a beginning.
First, ALL KIDS SHOULD NOT GO TO COLLEGE! It is not that they are not bright enough to attend, but there are MORE JOBS for non college graduates in the technical and trade fields that are going wanting today because of shortages — especially in the medical field. Too often, kids go off to college because their high school counselors and parents provide the encouragement without the benefits of aptitude testing.
Second, kids requiring remedial courses should not be provided HOPE under any circumstances. That is tantamount to the State paying twice for the same service, and an indication that the high school FAILED to teach, and merely INFLATED the grades.
Third, kids who fall below the 3.0 average while in college are — in many cases — acquiring student loan debt that will be with them for years, and sadly, that same student may not even work in the discipline the pursue while in college — WHAT A WASTE FOR ALL CONCERNED!
Regarding grade inflation: given the cheating on the CRCT that has gone on in Georgia in recent years; lack of real rigor in classrooms (Clayton County and APS); and the lies, fraud and deceit that has been witnessed in Wisconsin by teachers this past week, would suggest that the Governor set up some type of longitudinal data base for grades — with a low deviation to trigger grade increases–, where some body with integrity can measure if GRADE INFLATION is sprouting wings again!!
Sad that we are losing faith and credibility in some of our teachers isn’t it????
johnny too good
February 22nd, 2011
11:43 am
I agree completely with aquagirl………
HS Public Teacher
February 22nd, 2011
11:44 am
For norming purposes, the scores of a standardized test (SAT, ACT, etc.) need to be incorporated and not just use the gpa.
Just as a 4.0 at Perimeter college is not the same as a 4.0 at GA Tech, a 4.0 at Northview HS is not the same as a 4.0 at Martin Luther King HS.
ima
February 22nd, 2011
11:46 am
I hope all the people saying any deserving student will easily be able to maintain a 3.7 HS GPA will realize that HOPE GPA only looks at certain core classes and that weighting is calculated differently. One bad math grade can ruin your GPA, and those of us with students struggling under the new math don’t want to see the state’s poor roll-out of the new curriculum to be the reason a scholarship is lost.
I am afraid with the GPA raised to that high a level, you will have students having to decide between AP classes or less rigorous core classes that grant them a certain A just to get the scholarship.
Dr NO
February 22nd, 2011
11:47 am
Grade inflation amounts will remain the same. Which is exactly why these school districts like APS, Clayton County should be put on indefinite probation and monitored very closely for continued cheating activities.
Clueless
February 22nd, 2011
11:48 am
Do you really want students who can’t maintain a 3.0 teaching math or science?
HS Public Teacher
February 22nd, 2011
11:48 am
@Happy Parent -
Why, oh why do you blame “teachers”??? Everything is always the teachers fault, right?
Teachers have no reason to inflate grades. We just do it because. Teachers are mean and evil and just search for things to do to mess everyone and everything up, right?
Are you serious?
Most teacher know the scoop. However, most teachers will be pressured to do things that we know are not right….. everything from cheating on the CRCT to grade inflation. Teachers are pressured by the administration (I guess threatened is the more appropriate word). Teachers are pressured by the parents – I know of a parent that went on her knees and cried in front of the teacher to ‘give her child an A.’
Sure – teachers are just lazy, crazy, and mean people searching for ways to mess up everything.
ABC
February 22nd, 2011
11:49 am
Well yes, there might be grade inflation, but since it’s tied (”and”) to an SAT score, that won’t help anyone anyways.
I am not a fan of republicans, but even I have to admit that Deal is doing a pretty decent job. There is NO money..everyone makes sacrifices. I like this plan as a very good compromise.
And people, college is not a right. Not everyone can or should go to college. That’s the way it is.
JacobLocke
February 22nd, 2011
11:49 am
Two things will likely result from this:
1. Fewer students will attend Georgia colleges and universities
2. More students will graduate with debt.
Number 1 wouldn’t be a problem if the majority of schools had not been spending money on expanding classroom space, adding dorms, increasing faculty and preparing for continued growth.
Number 2 is a problem no matter where you stand.
JacobLocke
February 22nd, 2011
11:51 am
And to the grade inflation issue – there will absolutely be grade inflation. And I feel really bad for public school teachers. You think you have parents bitching about grades now, wait until little Johnny can’t maintain that 3.7. I have to say, this is just a fail all around. There were other ways of attacking this issue and Deal just chose the completely wrong path.
Aquagirl
February 22nd, 2011
11:52 am
@ johnny, of course you do. It’s only sensible, lol.
Reading throughthe proposed legislation I see in 2015 they’ll require at least two courses in advanced math, science, foreign language, AP core subjects or international baccalaureate courses. After that they ratchet it up by one additional course per year, topping out at 4 in 2017.
If this leads to increased demand, I wonder where they’ll find teachers for these subjects? Good friggin’ luck, with that, jawga.
JacobLocke
February 22nd, 2011
11:53 am
As to grade inflation – absolutely. I feel really sorry for the public school teachers. If they thought they had problems with parents complaining about grades now, wait until little Johnny falls below that 3.7. There were a number of different ways to attack this situation and Deal just chose the rockiest path possible.
Anonymous
February 22nd, 2011
11:55 am
@ Aquagirl
Where can I read the proposed legislation? I went on GAcollege411, but that House Bill looks nothing like what’s written in the articles.
HS Public Teacher
February 22nd, 2011
11:55 am
@ima – Regarding your concern, that happens today and has happened forever. Back in the day when I was in high school, a girl got saludatorian and ONLY took low level classes (back then we had high, medium, and low level tracks through high school). Her mom demanded that she remain in the low track because she wanted her daughter to be valadictorian – didn’t happen.
catlady
February 22nd, 2011
11:56 am
So, Georgia Taxpayers, you want to pay out of your taxes for the loans, defaults, and administration of these low-cost loans to underperforming kids??!! Nathan must owe someone in the banking business some money! From where will this money come??!! Will Georgia borrow the money at 5% from someone’s favorite bank, and subsidize the 1% rate? That’s your tax money, people!
Second, what state agency (as the Lottery surely is) is allowed to give 25% bonuses for people DOING THEIR JOB? Especially giving bonuses to an agency that has not paid its full share from the get-go!
HOPe increased the number of students dropping courses. This has upped the cost of the courses, as eventually there were fewer occupied seats as people dropped because they were afraid of losing HOPE. Now, with a 3.5, more students will be dropping more courses in order to shield their GPAs. And the profs thought they had pressure before–wait till this hits!
This proposal has as many holes as swiss cheese!
Come On Son
February 22nd, 2011
11:57 am
In a word yes, but that may be tempered by the SAT/ACT requirement. BTW, if a kid has a perfect (or near perfect) SAT/ACT score, gettng a full tuition scholarship will not be a problem.
HS Public Teacher
February 22nd, 2011
11:58 am
@ABC – Please do not praise Deal at all. He is NOT doing a good job. Remember that he increased his staff pay over 30% beyond what Perdue was paying his staff. That is a ridiculous increase of our tax dollars wasted by Deal.
He pays his “friends” a ton while we average folk are left to fight over a 3.7 gpa?
No, I do not like Deal at all.
Aquagirl
February 22nd, 2011
11:58 am
@ Anon, I found it under the “related” beside the main AJC article. I’ll try posting it here:
http://www.ajc.com/multimedia/archive/00844/HOPE_legislation_844198a.pdf
Economic Laws
February 22nd, 2011
11:59 am
Gambling wasn’t legalized in this this state because people cared about freedom. It was legalized so the government could get even more of people’s money and so that the middle class could be bought off with another entitlement program that they and every one on the take would become addicted to. That is the lottery in a nutshell.
While millions of poor people with little or no “hope” for advancement (at least in their heads) throw away their hard-earned money on the possible chance of hitting it rich, the middle class parents rake in the big subsidies that let them off the hook for the enormous costs of a college education.
The presence of this entitlement program has had numerous unintended consequences that cannot be denied. The first, as noted in this piece, is grade inflation. It is happening, and anyone in denial is just not dealing with reality. It is happening in every case – certainly not. But the financial incentive to deliver big dollars to selected children with no consequences to the teacher or the student are huge.
The second is the fact that this giant pile of money is now available without the colleges and universities having to earn it at all. Every kid who qualifies gets the money, padding his/her grades once in attendance assures the continued flow, and nobody has to bother with cost-cutting or similar in response to economic realities. If you knew that 80% of your incoming freshman would be able to pay $4000 a year no matter what their financial situation, you would certainly not worry about rising costs until they exceeded the $4000. And just look at the statistics and you will see that costs in one form or another have done just that since HOPE was introduced.
Hope is based on two key lies. The first is that everyone has to go to a traditional 4-year college to be successful. The second is that so long as the government is involved, you can get something for nothing.
Well, here is reality folks. Good luck adjusting to it. Expect only more and more unintended negative consequences as everyone tries desperately to hold onto yet another middle class entitlement program that is unsustainable. Wait until somebody tries to deal with the reality of the two gargantuan ones – Medicare and Social Security.
Anonymous
February 22nd, 2011
12:05 pm
@Aquagirl…Thanks for posting the link!
Another Point of View
February 22nd, 2011
12:08 pm
@CLUELESS: I agree!
From AJC article:
He also proposed spending about $10 million to offer low-interest loans of about 1 percent for students who can’t maintain a 3.0. The loan, he said, would be forgiven for those who teach math or science in Georgia’s public schools. One year of the loan will be forgiven for each year spent teaching, he said.
Oh, yeah, just what our schools need, the kids who can’t hold a B average teaching math and science courses. I thought that we wanted to EMPHASIZE the STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, Math) curriculum. Instead, I guess we’ll be dumbing it down even more!
And the whole idea of incenting these students to stay as teachers only unti ltheir loan is forgiven – oh, yeah, another thing we want – short-timers. So we have even more churn in the teacher ranks. That’s going to help. NOT.
Come On Son
February 22nd, 2011
12:08 pm
a 4.0 at Northview HS is not the same as a 4.0 at Martin Luther King HS
This is one of the most idiotic statements I have seen on this board in a long time and is based on a lot of erroneous assumptions. If you would have said a 4.0 taking college prep/AP classes is not the same as a general ed 4.0, that would have made sense. I kid only taking general ed at Northview versus a kid at King taking advance class…., you know you are right.
By the way, I live in the Northview area, certain segments of the student population are driving the SAT scores and it certainly are not the “native” students both those whose family trees extend across the ocean. If you doubt me, the majority of the “native” Nortview students end up instate and not all are at UGA or Tech, the Ivy Leaguers, Stanfords, Dukes, etc are made up of students who primarily come from other countries.
Not what it seems
February 22nd, 2011
12:08 pm
Fortunately, my daughter qualified for and maintained her Hope scholarship for the entire four years. Finished high school with 3.7 and college with 3.4 (accounting). As a result, I am 12,000.00 less broke.
Having said all that, Hope is not a full scholarship and to require 3.7 to qualify and 3.5 to maintain is a joke. These are requirements for a FULL scholarship at very selective schools. The 150.00 for books is a joke. I told my daughter to keep that for gas money and I gave her 600.00 every semester for books. Our out of pocket was probably 12 to 15,000.00 and she still has moderate student loan. This was a regional university, not a research university. Don’t mean to sound selfish, but I’m glad this is in the past for us. She’s now in grad school, on her own.
Come On Son
February 22nd, 2011
12:09 pm
i meant “but” not “both”…here come the blog natzis
Tweets that mention Will 3.7 GPA for full HOPE lead to more grade inflation? | Get Schooled -- Topsy.com
February 22nd, 2011
12:11 pm
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Alisa T. Jackson and Eric Stirgus, Maureen Downey. Maureen Downey said: Will 3.7 GPA for full HOPE lead to more grade inflation? http://bit.ly/gBxSep [...]
itsmeagain
February 22nd, 2011
12:11 pm
@enoughalready – If your child doesn’t have above a 3.7 GPA in highschool, they aren’t going to get into a “better” college outside of the state are they?
b
February 22nd, 2011
12:12 pm
Have a senior in college who is graduating this spring in 4 years and maintained HOPE all 4. Looking back—had a 3.3 in HOPE core classes from Northview, although an overall of 3.7 (One AP, lots of honor classes that HOPE does not use in calculation). Will graduate with a 3.5 from college. Athletic scholarship that basically paid for dorm. Worked to cover what we could not. Graduating without loans.
Under new HOPE would not qualify for the Zell; maybe a 90% grant for year 1, unknown what grant monies would have been available for the rest of the years. Definitely would have had to take out loans. Could not work enough to cover….of course, I would have gotten a second job to help out.
Out-of-state schools that offered academic and athletic monies would have been higher on choice list as it appears the cost would be about the same. This is going to make the choice to stay in-state harder for those in the 3.5 range of top high schools, as well require loans. Jobs take away from study time so maintaining a GPA will also work against students.
3.7 is just too high a GPA in the core HOPE classes to hit in the best high schools. As one person said…..one or two B’s and the student is toast.
Maureen Downey
February 22nd, 2011
12:12 pm
Folks, I placed the link to the Deal bill in the entry. I am confused on one thing — which I also added to the blog entry. A Miller Scholar — the 3.7 GPA kids — gets the full ride, but must keep a 3.5 GPA in college. The bill says that those students can regain the Miller Scholarship once. (As is the case with the HOPE lite kids as well if their college GPA falls below 3.0.)
But if a Miller Scholar’s average falls to 3.3, is the student then eligible for HOPE Lite?
In other words, Miller Scholars will get more but be held to a much higher standard. If they slip but are still within the HOPE lite range, shouldn’t they get the 90 percent?
Maureen
Come On Son
February 22nd, 2011
12:12 pm
Some of these post reek with the sense of entitlement which is destroying our culture today. How many of us look back 20 to 25 years ago and wished the state covered 50% of our tuition, i would have taken 25%. This is still a great program and you still can get 90% of your tuition covered.
90% of your tuition and all you have to do is pay for books and room/board, I will take that any day all day.
itsmeagain
February 22nd, 2011
12:14 pm
Regarding the SAT not being considered, honestly, being a college student i can tell you the SAT means a whole lot of nothing outside of getting into college. It’s a terrible way to rank students and really shouldn’t be considered by anyone. The most promising of students could flunk it while kids who drop out could ace it, but its a one time test and gives no profile of a student
John
February 22nd, 2011
12:16 pm
A 3.7 in high school isn’t that difficult to achieve by a student who makes any effort. A 1200 on the SAT is not real difficult for a bright student to reach, either. Requiring other students to pay 10 percent of their tuition isn’t asking too much. A parttime job for a couple of months will give the student that much money.
Common Sense Teacher
February 22nd, 2011
12:19 pm
There already is great pressure from administrators to inflate grades. That’s just one area of manipulation. Schools are becoming even more talented with managing their numbers than Wall Street.
DekalbGuy
February 22nd, 2011
12:24 pm
What do these changes mean for summer school? Will HOPE still cover tuition for courses taken over the summer?
Cheaters never win
February 22nd, 2011
12:26 pm
Even if a student benefits from grade inflation to obtain the Hope they will not keep it. In the movie Race to Nowhere, Cal-Berkley (one of the top school in the nation) reported they had to remediate 70% of their freshman class in math and science. Those are “suppose” to be some of the best and brightest who get into Berkley.
This is nothing new, I saw a story on Oprah one time when Bill Gates was starting his education initiatives and it featured a story of a young lady who was the valedictorian of her high school and almost flunked out her first year. She had to take remedial classes just to stay in school. GPA’s are not impressive, can a person THINK CRITICALLY is impressive. Race to Nowhere showed a law firm where the new lawyers had to be told everything to do because they could not think on their own. Yes, they had good grades in law school, but they had to be told everything to do. Rubrics have made big babies of our kids.
Rob
February 22nd, 2011
12:26 pm
I thought it was 4.5 hours for pre-k but I could be wrong.
EnoughAlready
February 22nd, 2011
12:26 pm
itsmeagain
February 22nd, 2011
12:11 pm
If she has a 3.7 GPA and I’m positive she will, my childs options will be a lot better than any college or university in Georgia. And FYI….. getting into a good school will not be a problem for my child, plus I can afford to pay regardless.
Dunwoody Mom
February 22nd, 2011
12:34 pm
Maybe those are the reasons that colleges no longer just look at GPA, but at the “whole body of work” of the student. SAT/ACT scores, honors classes, AP classes, G{A, extra-curricular activities, etc., Colleges are looking for well-rounded students not just those with a perfect 4.0 GPA.
Chris
February 22nd, 2011
12:34 pm
The only thing I’m concerned about is the incoming fall class of 2011. These kids have already been accepted to schools in many cases, and haven’t necessarily been going crazy looking for extra scholarships because they thought they had HOPE w/ their 3.5. Now – at the end of February their Senior year they have to either 1)apply for scholarships that are already given out or (2) move their GPA a full .2 of a point in less than one semester. Which is pretty much a mathematical impossibility for many, depending on what courses they’re taking and if they are on block schedule.
I like the plan – but I would have liked to have seen a roll out period so that the new rules effect the incoming college freshman class of 2012.
David
February 22nd, 2011
12:40 pm
Excellent comment Economic Laws.
No politician has ever questionned the ballooning costs to attend colleges in GA. Once they started getting free money from the state and did not have to charge the incoming students (or their parents), the just kept increasing their fees. None of their customers complained because most did not have to pay for it. I like tying the amount paid out to what is in the lottery fund as opposed to whatever the schools want to charge.
90% scholarship to a state school for a 3.0 in college is still a good deal.
As much as I am leary of Deal as a governor (no, I didn’t vote for him), I have to begrudgingly admit he seems to haev a better handle on how to creatively wade through the current budget fiasco.
And @ HS Teacher – Deal might have a higher staff budget which he should correct soon, at least he didn’t come up with the “Go Fish” boondoggle to pay back his rural voters.
HOPE Lite versus Full HOPE: Less filling but more lasting? | Get Schooled
February 22nd, 2011
12:48 pm
[...] (Please see prior blog to get more details on the GPAs required for Full HOPE versus HOPE Lite.) [...]
come on son
February 22nd, 2011
12:48 pm
Whether you fully agree or not at least this plan takes a common sense approach; you are never going to make everyone happy.
Maureen Downey
February 22nd, 2011
12:50 pm
From governor’s statement, which I just posted:
In order to make several programmatic changes to Pre-K, Deal announced that the state will move from a six-and-a-half hour day to a four-hour day.
JacobLocke
February 22nd, 2011
1:01 pm
From a few conversations I’ve had today, it looks like this really is the best model. The main issue is subsidizing all of the tuition increases in the past few years – the money is simply not there. Even if you remove the bonuses for the lottery folks, that’s just a drop in the bucket. Deal inherited this mess from Sonny and from the USG. Redirect your “anger” there. It stinks, but it’s the reality.
I recant what I said earlier about Deal’s choosing the rockiest path. Looks like the other paths aren’t even passable with 4WD.
Gail
February 22nd, 2011
1:05 pm
Thanks for the link to the legislation. Did anyone besides me catch that it says the SAT score must be from “a single administration of the SAT?” But at least the put in a GPA requirement for the HOPE grant.
David Sims
February 22nd, 2011
1:09 pm
1200 is a very easy score to reach or exceed on the SAT these days. Even many of the Atlanta high school students can do it. If grade inflation is as bad as people are saying, the colleges will sooner or later begin disregarding high school grades and base admissions on the SAT and on their own entrance examinations.
There is one dirty secret in schools, both high school and college. The assignment of grades is partly political. That teacher or professor has a percentage of leeway in how he will reward a student, and a student who has been reported as saying uncomplimentary things about his instructor might find an echo of the instructor’s displeasure in his report card or in his GPA. The best of students might find himself being partly graded on his “attitude.” Grades aren’t made in strict accordance with uniform rules, except when the grading is done by a computer and the instructor has no chance to handle the test answer sheets.
Maureen Downey
February 22nd, 2011
1:10 pm
Folks, I just talked to the governor’s office and wanted to make sure that you saw this, which I added to my latest blog entry:
Students now in college can only qualify for the Zell Miller Scholarship, the full HOPE ride, if they had a 3.7 GPA in high school and met the SAT/ACT score cutoffs.
So to be clear: That means that even juniors now at UGA with a 4.0 GPA all three years can never get full tuition if they did not graduate high school with a 3.7 GPA.
That means many students now in Georgia colleges have lost full HOPE for good, regardless of stellar achievement in college. They will only qualify for HOPE Lite.
Aquagirl
February 22nd, 2011
1:25 pm
Oh, man. I was going to open my windows on this fine springlike day, but I don’t want to be disturbed by the screaming.
Stacey
February 22nd, 2011
1:27 pm
@Come on Son 12:12pm…You took the words right out of my mouth! I got $100 per semester book stipend when I was in college (20 years ago) and was elated that it was $150 that I didn’t have to come up with!
Gail
February 22nd, 2011
1:55 pm
Maureen,
The juniors are on the Fixed for Four Plan. How does this new HOPE plan impact them? 90% of this year’s tuition @ UGA is more than their “fixed for four” tuition amount. Does that mean they will get 100% or are they reneging on the “fixed for four?” Maybe that will save a junior who did not graduate HS with a 3.7 or the required SAT/ACT score. As you said – complicated!!
Double Zero Eight
February 22nd, 2011
2:13 pm
Students with tougher majors will be penalized. Students with
easier majors will be rewarded. Maintaining a 3.7 at Clayton
State, North Georgia or West Georgia is easier than maintaining
a 3.7 at Georgia Tech or UGA.
All schools in the university sytem are “not created equally”
class of 2011 mom
February 22nd, 2011
2:16 pm
David Sims @1:09 – I don’t agree that a 1200 is easy. Not all kids are good at standardized tests. Those kids are going to have a hard time making that score “in one sitting”. My class of 2011 kid is not going to have a problem meeting the requirements of the new Zell Miller scholarship but I think of the classmates who were thinking all along that they were OK with a 3.0 GPA and now 2.5 months before graduation, they now have to rethink their plans. I have no problem with the new requirments but just don’t think its very fair to put them into place immediately.
Really amazed
February 22nd, 2011
2:25 pm
Isn’t this just a proposal??? 3.7 gpa 1200 math/reading. Why did they ever place a writing portion on the SAT if it was never going to count for anything. It should be based on a total SAT score not just math/reading. Plus Private high school students my as well just go back to local public for grade inflation and less challenging classes to show an inflated 3.7.
Maureen Downey
February 22nd, 2011
2:35 pm
@Gail, That is a good question. It may be 90 percent of what they are charged.
Maureen
JacobLocke
February 22nd, 2011
3:04 pm
@Really Amazed: According to the Governor’s office, the legislative leaders are behind this bill nearly 100%, so it’s all but a done deal.
Maureen Downey
February 22nd, 2011
3:11 pm
@Gail, From governor’s office after I sent your comment about fixed for four:
We’re working on this. It is in fact a very interesting situation
Stooge
February 22nd, 2011
3:32 pm
The inflation at my high school is already off the chain so why not more?. We’ve already had Guidance change a grade on an administrator’s child so HOPE would not be threatened. Teachers are so desentized to it that they won’t bat an eye to tinkering with the grades even more.
Show Me The $
February 22nd, 2011
3:36 pm
“I expect greater pressure on teachers for grades to earn the full HOPE.”
You can count on it. This is real money and after all these years there’s a sense of entitlement to HOPE scholarships. Parents won’t give it up easily. The pressure on teachers, principals and administrators to give better grades will be unrelenting.
redhousecat
February 22nd, 2011
3:53 pm
I guess I don’t understand the grade inflation thing. Is that what happens in high school?
After discussing this this morning with my cohorts in academia, they expressed a deal of relief stating that at least now there is a possibility of having students that actually want to be in class and learn. They also stated that they certainly aren’t going to hurt their chances at tenure or lose tenure because they inflated a grade.
Top School
February 22nd, 2011
3:54 pm
Not worth my time. I don’t have any children.
collegemomma
February 22nd, 2011
3:57 pm
What constitutes rigorous classes?! My daughter was in gifted classes and AP classes all thru High School and did not drop down to college prep. classes just to maintain the 4.0 GPA like several of her classmates. She should have though- then she could have gotten into any college cuz UGA doesn’t look at class rigour only GPA!!!
Boatfoot
February 22nd, 2011
5:07 pm
Are they going to standardize GPA statewide? Or are we going to see county-to-county variations to game the system. Is the GPA weighted or unweighted? Currently Gwinnett gives +10 points for AP classes. A dual enrolled student can make a 100 at UGA in Calculus and the school system gives the student a 95, yet an AP student can make an 86 and be given a 96 on thier records at the county. Counties like Cherokee don’t do this
They really need to think this thru especially since county school systems set their own rules. Then you have private schools, home-schooled, etc… Due to grade inflation and ‘gaming’ the system, GPA is extremely easy to manipulate individually and by a school system.
Once in college, a 3.5 at Georgia Tech in Engineering is a lot different than a 3.5 in History at Valdosta State.
New teacher
February 22nd, 2011
5:14 pm
I’m not too bothered by the proposals. 90% of tuition is not bad at all. Most parents/college students don’t get this kind of break for a 3.0. I like the idea of the Miller scholars but I think that 3.7 in high school get it, and 3.5 in college may be a bit steep. A 3.7 can get students into more prestigious out-of-state colleges, so why bother with GA schools, if I can go to a name-brand school (which, face it, is what most parents care about)? I’d lower that to 3.5 in high school.
As for colleges, let the Big 4 (i.e. the research universities) pick their own cutoffs for Miller scholars. For example, to graduate with high honors at Tech, one needs a 3.35, because it is just that hard to obtain that GPA, nonetheless a 3.7.
What did bother me was the loan forgiveness (of a super low interest loan!) for those who CAN’T maintain a 3.0 in college and TEACH math and science. We complain about the competency of teachers, teacher prep programs, the need to math/sci teachers with backgrounds in math/sci, but we are going to forgive the loans of math/sci teachers who struggled with the material themselves? Encouraging people to become math/sci teachers who aren’t proficient enough to get at least a 3.0 does not solve math/sci teacher problem. It just puts more bodies in the classroom, which I thought was a problem in the time of doing more with less.
Dona
February 22nd, 2011
6:02 pm
Coming from a current junior in high school, I am extremely stressed out by this new change. I understand that it’s partially my fault for getting bad grades my freshman year, failing one class, but I have been working my butt off ever since to get a better GPA. Right now, I stand at a 3.0 gpa and I know it’ll only lower if they take the ten points off out of my AP classes. Just because a student made a few mistakes doesn’t mean that they are not worthy of Hope. Many students go into high school not knowing the circumstances and how severe it is to get a single B. This isn’t about the teachers doing a bad job, because it honestly isn’t (most of the time) and it isn’t about how he made this choice (it partially is). On my behalf, I think the school system itself is a mess; I do blame myself for most of my high school career.. but it still bums me out completely that my hard work these past two years have done nothing. Some of you parents or even teachers may find it easy, but never try to speak about an issue when you aren’t able to step in that person’s shoes.
Top School
February 22nd, 2011
6:25 pm
Will 3.7 GPA for full HOPE lead to more grade inflation?
Or cheating?
The parents new don’t ask don’t tell policy…Cheat? I don’t think so!
http://www.TopPublicSchoolCorruptionAtlanta.com
Dekalbite
February 22nd, 2011
7:13 pm
I don’t agree with keeping a 3.5 to obtain a full ride for all students. Does anyone realize how hard it is to keep a 3.5 if you’re a math or science major? How many students can ace organic chemistry and biochemistry? Can we really compare these majors to elementary education courses?
Fericita
February 22nd, 2011
7:30 pm
I think the 4 hour pre-K day is a great idea; that seems more developmentally approriate for kids that age anyway. Parents might not like having to find an extended day placement, or paying extra for extra hours. But, in terms of what kids need to be ready for Kindergarten, I think 4 hours a day is fair.
Yes, a bit of entitlement
February 22nd, 2011
7:52 pm
When I graduated from high school in 1986, I would have been thrilled to have any part of my tuition paid from by a scholarship offered by the state. I was able to get Perkins loans (yes, quite a few years ago) and some grants to pay for my $25,000 per year private school. I worked in a paper mill over the summers – 12 hour shifts either 6 am – 6 pm or 6 pm – 6 am. I worked in the dining hall my freshman year in the dining hall working on the food line learning humility by serving meals to my peers. I worked the remaining years in the Financial Aid office. My parents couldn’t pay my tuition, so expecting them to wasn’t going to make that happen. I didn’t have a car until I bought one myself my senior year so I could get to my student teaching assignment. I don’t remember thinking that it was anyone else’s responsibility buy MY OWN to figure out how to cobble together the tuition I needed each year. I remember standing in the middle of campus one night on my way to the library and feeling an overwhelming sense of pride for getting MYSELF there. I hope our students today aren’t losing their opportunity for that feeling of accomplishment. I’m a high school teacher today, and I’m not feeling too hopeful that most of our students will keep their HOPE scholarships if they are able to get them in the first place. Oh, and I am an alumnus of a 4 hour a day kindergarten program that was held in the local church.
come on son
February 22nd, 2011
8:10 pm
LIKE!
Yes, a bit of entitlement
February 22nd, 2011
8:24 pm
Dekalbite
February 22nd, 2011
8:29 pm
Agree with the reduced hours for Pre-K. Much more developmentally appropriate.
Retired Educator
February 22nd, 2011
8:35 pm
I keep hoping and wishing for a little honesty on intentions, but never seem to get it. Deal being Deal, and all his cohorts have the intention of taking away from the average student access to HOPE. This has the consequence of having innercity kids/folks who are the biggest supporters of the lottery buying and paying for an education for the kids in the suburb.
I know someone will say that I’m playing the race card. To an extent, I am, but what I said is true.
Equitas
February 22nd, 2011
10:48 pm
It seems as if “tuition inflation” is a greater risk than grade
inflation.Covering the full tuition of a student earning a 3.7
grade point average is definitely a benefit to some students,
but the enhanced requirement also changes the original
intent of the Hope Scholarship-to encourage a broad group
of deserving students to enroll and graduate from a university,
wihile subsidizing the cost of tuition. The 3.0 guideline exist
today, but it is clear that it might be phased out in the future.
Laura
February 23rd, 2011
12:54 am
For everyone complaining about the low-interest loan/science & math teachers aspect of this proposal, you’re thinking about it wrong. I’d MUCH rather have a person who graduated with a 2.9 in math or chemistry than a person who graduated with a 4.0 in education teaching me math or science. In high school, I had one of each of these types of teachers, and I can tell you who had the most positive impact on me as a student.
Laura
February 23rd, 2011
12:58 am
@collegemama, you are quite mistaken. I am a sophomore at UGA and one of the highest ranking factors in your admission is the rigor of your high school GPA. I entered UGA with a 3.5 (weighted!) high school GPA, a 26 ACT/1970 SAT, and 8 AP classes (with very good scores on all the tests), and I can tell you that I am sure my AP classes are what helped me to get in, early admission at that.
What if
February 23rd, 2011
7:21 am
ANY time a measure is drafted into service as a high-stakes measure it will become corrupted. Take CRCT at APS, for example. The SAT is a bit harder to corrupt any more than it is (not much because of security precautions far beyond CRCT), so although by far the largest impact on the scores is socioeconomic level (and the learning opportunities that brings to a child), it would be a reasonable measure to incorporate – at least as a check against grade inflation. That of course still leaves Zell’s original purpose in the dirt.
What if
February 23rd, 2011
7:31 am
AND, the pressure for grade inflation at the colleges will be enormous, as well as the temptation for students to avoid taking difficult courses – not to mention avoiding Tech and UGA for ‘easier’ schools. To deny these effects would be the height of naivete. The carrot for math and science students to enter teaching may be useful – we have an enormous oversupply of college math and science graduates in the country as has been thoroughly documented – there are WAY too few jobs for WAY too many people, so to encourage them to go into teaching may leave us with a few who actually stay in the profession long enough to become decent teachers. Of course, they won’t be able to read or write – - – but we obviously don’t care.
redhousecat
February 23rd, 2011
8:44 am
@Dekalbite — I can see if you graduated from a Georgia Public school that math and science may be difficult in college, but there are many, many students who do just fine in math and science (myself included). All it takes is discipline, responsibility, and a will to better your Georgia education.
Many people have done it, and many more will continue.
Mandy
February 23rd, 2011
10:18 am
Alright, I had hope my entire time at college. My gpa went up and down between a 3.22 and3.4 my whole time at UGA. What’s fun is at UGA I was consired in Excellent Academic Standing because most kids there drop below a 3.0. Also, when I was there the plus and minus system was still in effect. Which yes, it does make your gpa lower. For example an A is a 4.0 and an A- is a 3.7. A B+ is a 3.3. I’m not sure if hope takes into account the plus minus system. If so, these kids will be getting robbed big time. I have to agree with other posters on here. A child with those SAT and GPA can get scholarships to Ivy League Schools or better state schools in general. So, what is the point in going here? Also, I don’t think one test should decide this. I’ve always been agains the SAT and ACT. I had a 3.8 GPA in high school but I’m terrible at standardized test. I barely broke 1000 (this was on the 1600 system) on my third try. I hate these test. If my gpa wasn’t so high, I wasn’t accepted in to UGA right away due to my SAT. I went to another University for one year, earned then transferred. All because of one test???? Absurd.
wow
February 23rd, 2011
10:27 am
I have to say it. I worke my butt off at UGA for my 3.4 GPA. This is a complete slap in the face. It’s basically saying, your too stupid to earn the full ride. Ouch. Anyone ever been to college, you know that a 3.0 and up is a great GPA. You know those kids all worked hard for it. And mine was on the Plus – Minus system. Which is a B+ on that system. At least they are paying people 90%. But so many people were depending on the full payment. They don’t pay fees anymore either? These kids can look to pay $1,500 a semester. Oh and tuition and fees just sky rocketed. I’m glad I graduated in time. This is targeting low-income individuals. My advice to you, look into as many scholarships as possible to help with the extra 10% Tuition, fees (which are beyond pricey), and books. Terrible.
Mandy
February 23rd, 2011
10:33 am
One more thing…The majority of Freshmen who receive the hope, do not keep it. They lose it so quickly. I knew hundreds of kids who lost their hope within the first year. Only a few managed to get it back. Also, I know someone else commented on this. Be glad that you’re receiving 90%. No other state has this scholarship. The governor could’ve cut it down to 50% if he wanted to. Things could be far worse. But I do agree. This will be a problem for low-income individuals. When you’re accepted into a university. Immediadtly contact there finacial aid department. They have plenty of other means to help the low-income people with the extra money they now have to pay. As for the rich kids, don’t worry mommy and daddy will pay. They always do.
Top School
February 23rd, 2011
12:46 pm
Smarter than a 5th Grader?
Your options:
Copy or Cheat?
Tweets that mention Will 3.7 GPA for full HOPE lead to more grade inflation? | Get Schooled -- Topsy.com
February 23rd, 2011
2:56 pm
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Orome
February 23rd, 2011
8:44 pm
Grade inflation isn’t the real problem. Most colleges, and intelligent people, know which schools and teachers inflate grades as well as those whose grades actually have meaning. The real problem is the damage being done to education overall. If a bright student can make a B in an honors or AP class but an A in a regular level class you are now going to see the brightest students taking the easiest classes. High school education in Georgia is about to step backward as far as possible.
It would have been nice if our leaders in government, who seem to have little true understanding of education, had put the responsibility for HOPE on the colleges, where it belongs. Businesses have been paying for grades for years. When they require people to go back to school they pay full tuition and books for those who make an A, 85% for those who make a B, and so forth. If the state would put a similar plan in action high schools would be less prone to inflate grades, more students would want to take upper level courses so they would be better prepared for college, and HOPE wouldn’t be paying for students to take 30 hours of courses which they are not prepared to pass. In addition, students would want to do their best in college because that is the only way they would have their costs covered.
Albert Bodamer
February 24th, 2011
8:35 am
I posted this case against the 3.7 GPA requirement for the Zell Miller Scholarship in my blog: http://wp.me/p1j2to-54 Please visit and comment.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I understand and appreciate the challenges facing the ongoing viability of the HOPE Scholarship program, and I appreciate the legislature’s efforts to remedy the pending budget shortfalls. I do not disagree with the majority of the proposed changes to the HOPE program. However, the pending requirement to attain a 3.7 High School GPA to qualify for the prospective Zell Miller Scholarship is problematic for the following reasons:
1) A student already enrolled in a Georgia College who has previously failed to achieve a 3.7 High School GPA would never be eligible for the Zell Miller Scholarship, even if—in the extreme case—they scored a perfect 1600 on the SAT and held a 4.0 GPA in college.
2) How grades are awarded vary widely from school to school, so GPA is an unreliable indicator of ability. Most universities focus on aptitude tests such as the SAT and ACT for this reason. Georgia Tech, for instance, requires that the student self-report their grades. The state’s premier technical university realizes the problem with GPA and focuses on aptitude tests and extra-curricular excellence.
3) The 3.7 GPA requirement penalizes high school students who take honors and AP courses. Weighting points are removed and if a student gets an A in an AP class, they are unable to get the 0.5 point bump and achieve a 4.5 score. So the highest weight a student can obtain is 4.0. Without weighting, there is no distinguishing between Honors and remedial classes. So, perversely, students are motivated to take the easiest possible core curricula to maximize their potential to achieve a 3.7 GPA.
4) Finally, the 3.7 requirement to maintain the scholarship is completely unreasonable. The average GPA at Georgia Tech is approximately 3.08. To graduate with an engineering degree from Georgia Tech requires a 2.0, and the average GPA of Tech Presidential Scholars (the top 150 in each class) is 3.68 (source: http://www.me.gatech.edu/docs/ME%20low%20res%20proof.pdf, page 9 ). Student’s in Georgia Tech’s Honors Program have average GPAs of less than 3.5 (Source: http://www.me.gatech.edu/docs/ME%20low%20res%20proof.pdf, p 21). Given these statistics, the bulk of Georgia Tech’s students, including its Presidential and Honors awardees, would fail to qualify for the proposed Zell Miller Scholarship.
These facts relating to the GPA requirement are in conflict with the stated intent of the Zell Miller Scholarship. We should not be penalizing students who pursue the most challenging curricula in our high schools and universities. And we should not be creating perverse incentives to take easier classes or attend less challenging Universities.
I hope the Georgia legistature will consider these arguments persuasive and work to eliminate the GPA requirement from the Zell Miller Scholarship and focus instead on the SAT/ACT requirement.
Reader
February 24th, 2011
11:41 am
“a student who can get a 1200 on the SAT or a 26 on the ACT was probably already making a 3.7 with the current level of grade inflation.”
Do you have a clue what you’re even talking about? A 1200 on the Sat will hardly get you into a community college.
Really amazed
February 25th, 2011
9:27 am
@Reader, do you realize that the 1200 is only for the math and reading portion old SAT. Yes, 1200 total on reading/math/writing would be very easy. 1200 on reading/math another story. I don’t know why they ever added the writing portion if they weren’t ever going to be taking that portion into consideration. My son does better on the writing section than reading section. The reading section are based on very long reading passages, remember this test is timed. They should have a total score for the whole SAT. Not just reading/math. I have also wondered why the total on ACT at 26. Why aren’t they just considering the reading/math portion on this.
Brian
February 25th, 2011
2:16 pm
I’m in that group you mentioned with high SAT’s and a high school GPA which doesn’t meet the cut-off. I made a 2370 (enough to earn me unsolicited offers of full rides at 5 universities), but had a 3.5 and am now slapped with coming up with over $1,000 for next semester.
Time4change
February 26th, 2011
6:52 am
Is the 3.7 weighted with bonus points for advances courses or unweighted?
Can anyone help me find a link to the actual proposal? I teach high school and want my students to be informed.